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- [00:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com this episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile.
- [00:22]
Tom Holland
Some of the great tussles and battles throughout history have been over money. After all, who doesn't love to have a little extra cash on hand? But you don't have to lead a cavalry or or storm a castle to bolster your bank account.
- [00:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
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- [00:55]
Tom Holland
That's amazing, Dominic. So if you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com history that' mintmobile.com history upfront.
- [01:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
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- [01:26]
Tom Holland
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- [01:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections may occur.
- [01:49]
Tom Holland
Before treatment, your doctor should check you.
- [01:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
For infections and tb.
- [01:53]
Tom Holland
Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. Ask your doctor if Tremphaya can help you manage the cycle of UC symptoms. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremphyaradio. I'm ready for my life to change.
- [02:10]
Carrie Underwood
ABC Sundays American Idol is all new.
- [02:14]
Tom Holland
Give it your all. Good luck.
- [02:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
Come out with a golden ticket. Let's hear it.
- [02:17]
Tom Holland
This is immense world. I've never seen anything like it. And a new chapter begins. You're going to Hollywood.
- [02:26]
Carrie Underwood
Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryant and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol News.
- [02:33]
Tom Holland
Sundays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
- [02:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
Frenchman where now are those qualities which once distinguished you? Where now is that national character of greatness? And loyalty? Would you show your powers in overwhelming with misfortunes the man who had the noble resolution to repose such confidence in you? Have you no more respect for the sacred duties of hospitality? Is no commiseration due to such unparalleled misfortunes? Do you not think that a king who ceases to be one is not a victim sufficiently striking without its being necessary to add such accumulated miseries to his fate? Frenchman, this revolution which regenerates you develops great qualities, but fear lest it should at the same time efface humanity from your heart, without which every other virtue is lost. So that was the somewhat florid concluding statement of a fellow called Roman de Sez, who was a lawyer from Bordeaux. Tom writes here that he was celebrated for his sonorous eloquence, as I think you can tell. As you can tell, there he was standing on 26th December, 1792 before the National Convention in Paris. And of course, the man he was defending, who was on trial for his life, was the erstwhile king Louis the 16th. And this, Tom, is one of those speeches that defines the French Revolution. The French Revolution is a great rhetorical event.
- [04:34]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [04:34]
Dominic Sandbrook
And we've done a lot of great orations. We had Saint just last time saying that you can't reign innocently and the king must die. And here we have Roman De says saying that you should fear lest you efface humanity from your heart, and you should find the compassion for this man who has suffered enough. And basically, nobody listens.
- [04:59]
Tom Holland
Well, I think some people do listen, as we will see. But they, from Louis point of view, don't listen hard enough, I think. I think you could say. And that that translation that you read, it was issued, published only a few weeks after it was delivered, so it was rush translated into English. And I guess it's a reminder of just how seismic an event the trial of the king of France is. I mean, it completely transfixes France, obviously, but Britain, all of Europe, I mean, it's the most astonishing spectacle. And in Britain and in the other monarchies, of Europe, public opinion, by and large, is appalled, even though obviously in England the English had actually set a precedent because they had tried and executed a king themselves in the form of Charles I.
- [05:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
Not uncontroversial.
- [05:52]
Tom Holland
Right, right. But it's not just in foreign monarchies that public opinion is appalled, because there are also deep reservoirs of royalism in France and the assumption that a king is inviolate, you know, down to the most basic level, that people shouldn't touch him. Without kind of strict protections of ritual and so on. This is deeply, deeply ingrained. It's, it's been a theme of French history for a millennium and more. And that sense that a king's actions are inviolate, it had been so hardwired that it had been written into the, the constitution that had been issued in 1791 and which, which Louis had accepted. And in that it had specified that only if a king had set himself at the head of a hostile army could he be reckoned to have abdicated the throne. But otherwise, and this is something that Louis himself points out at his trial, the king's person is inviolable and sacred. That is what the constitution had said. But we've been talking about this second revolution that has overwhelmed Paris and France over the course of 1792. And it is precisely that sense of, of inviolability. Precisely the sense that the king's very body is somehow sacred, that the deputies in the National Convention are, you know, that is what they're trying to destroy. They're not just trying to destroy the person of Louis, they're trying to destroy the figure of the king and everything, all the sacrality that is associated with him. And that's why they're bringing him to trial. That's the whole point of it. And of course they know that the eyes of the world upon them, the international situation for this is incredibly important. We were talking yesterday about these amazing successes that French arms have been having been going into Switzerland and into Nice and into the Austrian Netherlands, what's now Belgium. And the justification for this is precisely the overthrow, not just of tyranny and monarchy in France, but across Europe, across the world. I mean, we were saying that the French revolutionary leaders are seeing what they're doing in cosmic terms. It's kind of Trotsky, right, In that sense, isn't it?
- [08:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
It's interesting how that has escalated from an opposition to this king, which would have been the case a year earlier, that this king is complicit with counter revolutionaries and foreign infiltrators and all that kind of thing. But it has widened, hasn't it? They've self radicalized. So now it is an opposition to all kings and to kingship more generally. And so this has become more than just a case about Louis and his own personal misdemeanors, but he is on trial as a symbol of worldwide despotism and monarchy.
- [08:37]
Tom Holland
Yeah, so it's monarchy, it's the very concept of monarchy itself. So one of the deputies who's pushing for the guilty verdict on the King says that the verdict that is delivered on Louis must serve as an example for all nations. So this is very pointed. If it's Louis XVI today, then perhaps it will be George iii, you know, in a court in London tomorrow.
- [09:02]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's a horrendous thought, Tom.
- [09:05]
Tom Holland
Well, okay, so we shouldn't exaggerate how focused on other countries the delegates are. I mean, they are. But of course, their real focus is on France itself. And again, we talked yesterday how it's important for the new republic because there hasn't been a formal proclamation of a republic. So just to quote Antoine de Beck. Dominic, do you want to insert your.
- [09:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
Joke There he was later on Strictly Come Dancing. That's the joke.
- [09:30]
Tom Holland
Very good. So he wrote this great book, Glory and Terror. Seven Deaths under the French Revolution. And the Princess de Lambert is one of those seven deaths, but Louis XVI is another. And he, he writes, when France entered into a republic in the course of the summer of 1792, it did not solemnly proclaim the foundation of a new regime. The historian can look nowhere will he unearth an official decree in the archives installing the first French Republic. So you do have the image of liberty on the, on the melted royal seal. We talked about that. But otherwise there isn't really anything kind of symbol resonant. And I guess that that is what Saint just had fixed on in his famous speech when you, you quoted him yesterday that the king, simply by virtue of being a king, is. Is guilty. Since San Juice puts it, one cannot reign innocently.
- [10:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [10:17]
Tom Holland
And so it's only when the king has been put to death that the Republic can properly be born. So in the Marseilles, let's talk about tainted blood fertilizing the soil. And I'm sure that that must be kind of part of what the deputies are thinking.
- [10:32]
Dominic Sandbrook
They want a big set piece.
- [10:34]
Tom Holland
Yeah. But his blood will fertilize the soil and enable the Republic to kind of flourish and grow and emerge. And there's a sense in which, therefore, I think the deposition, the imprisonment, the trial, and perhaps if he's found guilty, the execution of the King will serve the French Republic, as all the various declarations in the American Revolution served the American Republic.
- [11:02]
Dominic Sandbrook
It's the ritualistic kind of kickoff, isn't it? And you say if he's found guilty, there is no doubt that he will be found guilty from the beginning. I mean, we're going to be talking about the trial, but I don't think there's any doubt in anybody's Mind that he's not going to be walking out a free man kind of punching the air and stuff outside the Old Bailey.
- [11:18]
Tom Holland
No. Now, I just wanted to maintain the suspense, okay? It's all about the jeopardy, okay? Dramatic tensions.
- [11:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
So tell us exactly how he is brought to trial.
- [11:27]
Tom Holland
Okay, so on the 10th of December, the formal indictment is read out in the National Convention and Louis is charged with conspiring with the enemies of the French nation against the Republic and of, therefore, of direct treason. And essentially what they do is they go back over everything that he's done since the outbreak of the Revolution in 1789, and they present it in the worst light possible. And if you're a royalist, you might say, well, this is very harsh. Personally, I think actually they've got Louis pretty bang to rights because he has been working to undo the Revolution. And the thing is that the worst thing that he's been doing, which is essentially, you know, he has been conspiring with the Austrians, he has been writing to monarchs of hostile nations that correspondence has not come to light. Even when the safe was opened, evidence of that had gone because Louis and Marie Antoinette had been sensible enough to actually burn that. So they don't even know the worst of it. So, as you say, I think the evidence is pretty bad that he has been betraying the Revolution. So the following day, on the 11th of December, he is summoned to the Convention to face the charges that are going to be levelled against him. And the summons is brought to him by the mayor of Paris. He, of course, is in the temple where he's been locked up for about four months. The mayor comes into his presence, doesn't take his hat off, doesn't bow, addresses him as Louis Capet. And we talked about that yesterday, that Capet is the family name of Hugh Capet who had been elected king at the end of the 10th century. And Louis is very indignant and points out that he is not a Capet, that he is a Bourbon, because the Capes had gone extinct in the early 14th century, which is what had kicked off the Hundred Years War. They'd been replaced by the Valois, and then the Valois had gone extinct and they'd been replaced by the Bourbon. And so why Capet? The reason is precisely because it enables the Republic to demonstrate that it's not just Louis who's on trial, it's the entire line of all the kings that join Hugh Capet to Louis xvi.
- [13:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
So the triad is doing two things simultaneously, right? It is trying Louis as a private individual who has betrayed the revolution. But it's also doing that saint just thing of trying him as a symbol of monarchy. He stands in effectively for all the monarchs that France has ever had.
- [13:59]
Tom Holland
Yeah. And I think there's an inherent ambivalence there because on the one hand, the emphasis is on his role now as someone who has been decrowned, who is just a normal citizen, but of course he isn't. He has to be tried as a king as well. So there's a kind of a slight ambivalence there that shadows the entire approach of the Republic to Louis and to his fate. So he leaves the temple, as we said, for the first time in about four months. Massive lines of soldiers along the streets of the National Guard to make sure that no rescue attempts can be made. He is brought into the convention, he's led to the bar. He is obviously dressed as a private citizen. An onlooker describes him as wearing just a plain yellowish frock coat. He walks in, he looks around, everyone is sat, everyone has their hats on. And onlookers are delighted by his expression of kind of consternation, really. And so one of them wrote, no doubt he was quite surprised to see no other seat for him than a humble chair in a place where he had more than once deployed all the pride and ceremony of royalty. Remember, readers, the scarlet armchair with fleur de lis, which insulted the representatives of the nation. And of course, he is only allowed to sit when he is given permission to do so by the president of the court. And this is to turn the world upside down. You think of all the ritual that had governed behavior at Versailles, and it's utterly upended, isn't it?
- [15:32]
Dominic Sandbrook
This is very execution of Charles I, isn't it? We did two episodes about that with our friend Ted Valance. Remember, there's all that business where a bit of Charles Cane falls off and no one picks it up and.
- [15:41]
Tom Holland
Yeah. And he has to get it. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
This is all exactly the same thing again. And obviously they all know the story of Charles I, so there must be a slight element of role playing on all sides, actually, that they're kind of conscious that this has happened before.
- [15:53]
Tom Holland
Yeah. And as we'll see, Louis is very familiar with the story of Charles trial. And it's probably that that enables, you know, having read that, having read how Charles maintained his dignity in that situation, it. I'm sure it must steal Louis in this situation because when the charges are read out, he is very calm in denying them. People say even. Even those who are hostile to him say, he seems very serene. And even when, you know, he's shown these papers with his signature on that have been taken from the safe that, you know, he's clearly banged to rights, and he just said, that's not my signature. It's nothing to do with me at all. And the only time he actually displays any sense of outrage or indignation is when he's accused of shedding French blood. And then he, you know, he is indignant. He protests. He says, this is. This is absolutely false. And their reaction to his performance, the Montagnard. So the radicals, Robespierre, Marat and so on. Yeah, they view this as the rankest hypocrisy, that he is blatantly lying. A majority of people in the Convention, though, I think they feel sufficiently sympathetic that they decide that Louis should be allowed legal representation, because that had not been decided until this. So Louis is taken back to the temple and he is then allowed to request legal representation. And so the person he goes for is the guy who probably has the most formidable reputation of any of the lawyers who had been operating in the Alcien regime. And this is the guy who had led the defense of the Prince de Rohan in the affair of the diamond necklace.
- [17:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
The cardinal guy.
- [17:27]
Tom Holland
The cardinal. The Cardinal de Rohan, who, by successfully defending the Cardinal de Rohan, had done terrible damage to Marie Antoinette and to Louis XVI himself, to the very image of the crown.
- [17:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
That seems a long time ago now, doesn't it? Diamond necklace.
- [17:42]
Tom Holland
And it must have done to Louis himself, because even though this guy who's a man called Guijon Baptiste, had, you know, had. Had inflicted these wounds on the monarchy in the revolution itself, he had been a very enthusiastic supporter of constitutional monarchy. So he'd been a member of the Third Estate, but had been a kind of constitutional monarchist, and he'd stuck to that. And he was the guy who'd come up with the. The idea that Louis should no longer be king of France, but should be king of the French, that's very much where he's at. But because of that, of course, he now seems a counter revolutionary. The guy who had been at the cutting edge of radicalism in 1788 now seems, you know, total reactionary. And he's aware of this and says he's not going to do it.
- [18:28]
Dominic Sandbrook
But there's also an issue. He's got an issue, to be fair to him, with his weight, hasn't he? Says, basically, I'm too fat to stand up in court.
- [18:35]
Tom Holland
That's his excuse. So this had been royalist abuse leveled at him right the way back in the. The trial of the Cardinal Durham, that he'd simply been too fat even to stand up. But now he takes advantage of this, says, I can't possibly, you know, I'll just keel over if I have to stand up all this time. So that's his excuse. Now, fortunately for Louis, there are people who are brave enough to volunte for the job of defending him, and one of them is our friend Olympe de Gouge.
- [19:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
The feminist. Yeah.
- [19:05]
Tom Holland
Yes. So she has not been keeping her head out of the firing line. She has been publicly attacking Robespierre, attacking Mara. She's very identified with the Girondin, who she sees as. As being much more sympathetic to female suffrage. And people may remember that she was very, very fond of Louis. She viewed him as having been dealt a bad hand. And even as the king is being brought to trial, she issues a public statement declaring that the greatest of Louis crimes is to have been king at a time when philosophy was silently preparing the foundations of our republic. We have abolished royalty. He has lost his subjects, his throne, everything. Let us be good enough to leave him his life. And I think in saying that, she's probably speaking for a sizable number of the French who probably do, do feel.
- [19:54]
Dominic Sandbrook
That, I mean, you could say she might be being naive because by leaving him alive, you would create problems for the future, but, you know, she's being commendably compassionate, Tom.
- [20:03]
Tom Holland
Well, this is not how the sans culottes see it. So they, they are, they're furious at this. And a large mob gathers outside her house with the bravery that is absolutely typical of her. Olymptegos goes down and confronts them on her doorstep. And one of the Sancalot grabs her by her hair, you know, holding up her face to the crowd and says, you know, let's let, let's chop this off. I'm going to auction it off. Who would. Who bids for her head? And Olympte Gouge puts in a bid. And this is treated by the crowd as, you know, immense banter, hilarious. And. And so they, they let her off.
- [20:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [20:40]
Tom Holland
So her good humor, her ability to make a joke in the teeth of. Of mob violence enables her to, to fight another day.
- [20:49]
Dominic Sandbrook
But Louis doesn't fancy her as his legal representative.
- [20:52]
Tom Holland
No, I mean, it'd been amazing if he had.
- [20:53]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [20:54]
Tom Holland
He is not sufficiently progressive to do that.
- [20:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [20:57]
Tom Holland
Fortunately, there is another guy who volunteers, and this is a man called Guillaume Chretien de Malesherbe. And he is the absolute embodiment of kind of enlightenment infused liberalism. So he's, he's a friend, he was a friend of Rousseau, he corresponded with Diderot, he'd been the censor, the national censor under Louis and he'd allowed Diderot to publish the encyclopedia which was kind of very radical, very atheist tinged, very keen botanist. And again he is a bit like Baptiste. He's an example of how the whirligig of politics is leaving one time radicals behind and casting them as reactionaries. But he, unlike Baptiste, is prepared to come out and defend the King. So he, he's actually retired, he's 71, he's kind of very elderly and he's the one who recruits Roman de Seis, the, the Orotend guy who likes the sound of his own voice.
- [21:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [21:56]
Tom Holland
There's also another distinguished lawyer called Francois Tonch. The three of them are appointed to defend the King and they have two weeks to prepare their case. And so they go to the cell in the temple where Louis is now being kept in isolation so he's been separated from his family and they start preparing their defense. And it was with malzerbe that in 1788 Louis had discussed the trial of Charles the First.
- [22:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, in 1788. Yeah. Interesting.
- [22:27]
Tom Holland
There are foundations there. And of course what. Well, Charles I's strategy in his trial had been to refuse to accept the legitimacy of the court.
- [22:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean obviously he had his head cut off, but he was always going to. But historians would generally say that that was very clever from Charles because actually he was right, the court was illegitimate. And he basically said, come on, everyone knows this is a put up job and has no legal foundation. And he wasn't wrong and he got a lot of sympathy for that.
- [22:54]
Tom Holland
Right. And Malzerbe, who's a very smart lawyer, very familiar with his English history, this is the strategy that he wants Louis to adopt. To insist on the wording of the original written constitution which says that, you know, the King is inviolable. Which in turn would be to attack the entire legitimacy of this second revolution that's happened over the course of, of 1792. And this is exactly what the Montagnard had been afraid that they would do. Yeah, the trial would become, it wouldn't just be a trial of Louis, it would be a trial of the, the new constitutional settlement.
- [23:30]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [23:30]
Tom Holland
So throughout this history we have discussed how whenever Louis is given an option, he always chooses the dumb option.
- [23:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [23:38]
Tom Holland
And this is what he does again. He turns down Malserb's advice. He says, no, I'm going to answer all the, you know, all these points that had been raised against him, all the disparagements of his motivations and actions over the course of the previous years since the fall of the Bastille. He's obviously personally indignant about this and he wants to, to take them down. But of course it's madness because he has no prospect of, of convincing the court. He has no prospect of making a, a proper case. Malzer strategy is the only effective one, I think.
- [24:09]
Dominic Sandbrook
I suppose there are two interesting things there. So number one is the weird thing is that answering point by point, it is madness because on some of those points he is clearly guilty.
- [24:17]
Tom Holland
Right?
- [24:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
You know, he did flight to Varennes, he did get in touch with the Austrians, he has been in touch with counter revolutionaries. He has been conspiring against the revolution. But the interesting, in his own mind, clearly Louis doesn't think he's guilty. He thinks these guys are bad people who have done a coup and have seized control of the revolution. Actually, I am blameless. I mean, that's the interesting thing. He wouldn't choose that strategy if he didn't have absolute confidence in his own innocence.
- [24:45]
Tom Holland
And I think that's what explains, you know, his serenity, absolute conviction that, that he's completely in the right kind of a slight, like, kind of Prince Andrew quality perhaps. Wow. You know, just, just, just madness anyway that he's the King and so. Well, he's not the king anymore, but as far as Malzer is concerned he is. So that's the strategy that they have to adopt. So again, this is very Cromwellian. The date for the trial is set on the 26th of December, so the day after Christmas. So there's a kind of deliberate attempt to ignore the, the sacral quality of the feast day. So on Christmas Day itself, Louis dictates his will to Malserb, suggesting that he knows what's going to happen. And then the following day he's duly brought back to the Convention and the trial happens. And this is when to say he gives his famous speech and you ask does it persuade anyone of Louis innocence? Probably not. But does it persuade anyone that he should be spared execution? Well, maybe it does because the Convention are going to vote on whether Louis is guilty. And as you say, that's, you know, that's pretty, pretty much guaranteed he will be found guilty. But then they have to decide on a verdict and in fact they end up voting on a third point of principle because the Girondins at the end of December who clearly feel that the Execution of the King will be seen as a kind of Montagnard triumph. They want to stop that happening. They propose that the verdict that the Convention arrives at should be put to a referendum. Them. And this also has the additional benefit of enabling them to pose as the defenders of popular sovereignty.
- [26:21]
Dominic Sandbrook
But in the long run, very bad move for the genre in this. I mean, and one of their. One of their. Their own goals that they have been, you know, scoring for the last few months. Right. That they keep coming up with these wheezes that don't quite work.
- [26:35]
Tom Holland
Right. And which make them look royalist. I mean, that's the madness. None of them are royalists.
- [26:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, exactly.
- [26:41]
Tom Holland
So the Montagnard, you know, they're very indignant at this. They regard it as terrible. And out on the streets of Paris, the Sans Culottes also are appalled by the idea that Louis's fate should be protracted. So on the 30th of December, delegates from about 18 of the sections in Paris. So these are the kind of. The local councils in Paris petition the Convention for the tyrant to be put to death immediately. And it's full melodrama. They've got women who are carrying the bloody clothes of relatives who died on that day. They've got people who are kind of hobbling in on crutches after they'd been sh. In or stabbed in the leg by the Swiss Guards. It's all absolutely calculated to tug at the heartstrings of. Of upstanding patriots. And then just when it seems that things can't get any worse for the. The Girondins, there's another bombshell, because early in January, letters are produced showing that three of them, three leading Girondins, had been corresponding with the King in the days building up to the massacre on 10 August, the attack on the Tuileries.
- [27:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Because at that point some of them were hoping he might bring them back into his ministry and that they wouldn't have to have this kind of coup.
- [27:53]
Tom Holland
Yeah. And their claim is, which I'm sure is absolutely genuine, is that they. They'd been communicating with the King because they were anxious to save the fatherland, because this was the period when the Prussians were advancing and everything seemed in a state of disaster. But obviously this brands them, at the very least, as lacking in confidence in the martial prowess of. Of the patriotic armies. So that's a bad look. And of course it's particularly bad because you mentioned in the previous episode that the correspondence between the King and Queen and Mirabeau had been produced from the King's safe. And so this sense that everywhere you look there is treason and treachery and the mask of patriotism is hiding rankest treason. This again is terrible for the Girondins and it makes them seem like kind of closet royalists. So very good news for the Montagnard.
- [28:44]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [28:44]
Tom Holland
So all of which means that on the 15th of January, the. The convention is ready to have these three votes. Is he guilty? Should it. Should the verdict go to a referendum? What should. If he is guilty, what should the sentence be? So the first motion is Louis Capet, guilty or not guilty? Mara has introduced a motion which is passed that the vote should be public so that no traitors can practice behind kind of secrecy and surprise, surprise, a universal absolute majority. Nobody votes against the guilty verdict, although.
- [29:25]
Dominic Sandbrook
There are 26 abstentions.
- [29:27]
Tom Holland
There are 26 abstentions? Yes, there are 26 abstentions. So he is duly found guilty. Then there's a vote on should it go to a referendum. And this is defeated. 425 to 286. So that is, you know, a very embarrassing defeat for the Girondin. And then there's the vote on what Louis's punishment should be. And this is an absolutely marathon session. It lasts for over 24 hours. Every deputy has to go up to the tribunal, has to say what he thinks the verdict should be. They are allowed to explain why they have arrived at their decision. Some, you know, podcast style, duly go on for hours and hours. Others give slightly more concise summaries and various decisions are given. So the obvious one is death. The Montagnard are all over this. You know, they think this is a great idea. So they're, they're very keen. It is Robespierre, unsurprisingly, who gives the most ringing and kind of Roman explanation for it. I am inflexible in relation to impressors, he declares, because I am compassionate towards the oppressed. I do not recogn the humanity that butchers the people and pardons despots. So this is how the man who had been very much against the death penalty justifies it.
- [30:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
I vote for death because I'm so kind is basically what he's saying.
- [30:49]
Tom Holland
He's all about heart, all heart. And Dominic, the most startling person to vote for the death penalty.
- [30:57]
Dominic Sandbrook
The worst man in the story.
- [30:58]
Tom Holland
Who's that?
- [31:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
This is Philippe Philip, Equality, who is the King's own cousin. What a terrible man he is. I mean, at least abstain or at least say exile or something like that, but to go all in in this Way for your own cousin, I think, is very, very bad behaviour, even death.
- [31:15]
Tom Holland
With a recommendation that the King be reprieved, because that is what some people vote for.
- [31:20]
Dominic Sandbrook
So death and then a pardon.
- [31:21]
Tom Holland
Yeah, yeah. Others vote for exile. And this is generally proposed for geopolitical reasons, that the King should be kept as a hostage. And then when peace terms have been negotiated with the kind of hostile powers, then perhaps he can be sent off into. There is a brilliant spin, a Rousseauist spin on this from Louis Sebastien Mercier, who we've beat, the playwright who is the friend of Olympe de Gouges, who in the long run will become a counter revolutionary. But he's a delegate in. In the convention and he proposes that the royal family be transported to Tahiti or some other island in the south, so that contact with nature in the simplicity of a fishing hut would rehabilitate. Take them.
- [32:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
People pay good money for that.
- [32:02]
Tom Holland
It's a brilliant idea. Mariannette would love that, wouldn't she?
- [32:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's a very. That's a honeymoon holiday.
- [32:07]
Tom Holland
Yeah. A Tahitian maiden, she could do fishing and. Yeah, surfing, like Joseph Banks. It would be great. And Mercier is one of several delegates who say that. That he's found it very difficult weighing up the pros and cons has. Has made him physically ill. Huge stress. There are other people who vote, a minority who vote for kind of life imprisonment under in irons or under very strict surveillance, which of course would have made Louis XVI the second member of the royal family, after the man in the Iron Mask, of course.
- [32:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [32:40]
Tom Holland
Such a.
- [32:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
Very good, very good.
- [32:42]
Tom Holland
And then there are a couple of people suggest that Louis should be sent to the galleys like Jean Valjean. Like Jean Valjean in Les Miserables. So one of them is a very hardcore Republican called Joseph Marie Liquinot, who is a. From Brittany, a lawyer. Inevitably. The reason he argues for it is that he says that this will be a punishment much worse than death because of course it's a living hell. And. And Louis, it has to be said, doesn't seem the kind of man whose physique would lend itself to. No, a lot of strenuous rowing. And then there's Condorcet, you know, this great enthusiast, a man of compassion who is opposed on principle to the death penalty. And this is why he votes, because he says that he disapproves of the death penalty. And going to the galleys is, you know, if you're not being killed, then you get sent to the galleys anyway. So these are all the various Options. The vote concludes on the evening of the 17th of January, and the tally is actually incredibly close. And the king is sentenced to death by one vote.
- [33:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
One vote.
- [33:47]
Tom Holland
It's more if you throw in the. If you include the number of people who voted for death but recommended that he be pardoned, and that is kind of tallied. I mean, madly. The Girondins that they call for reprieve, they ask for another roll call vote. I mean, absolute madness. And that again is rejected. So the final Verdict is delivered 3:00 on the morning of the 18th of January. Dawn is a few hours off and it's bad for the Girondin because they now again, they've kind of confirmed this sense among the Montagnard that they're closet royalists. But of course, the person it's really bad for is the erstwhile King Louis Cape. And so his lawyers, who have been standing the whole way through this vote, they haven't been given chairs. So it may be that, you know.
- [34:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
We'Ve been in real trouble.
- [34:41]
Tom Holland
Yeah, some justification. Anyway, they are allowed to give their response to the verdict. And Malzerbe, who's a famous orator, gets to the tribunal, tries to give his talk. Can't. Breaks down in tears. You know, this is a tremendous display of sensibility. Everyone else is in tears. It's very Rousseau. And he then goes from the convention to the temple. He is led into the presence of the convicted criminal, Louis Capet.
- [35:11]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [35:11]
Tom Holland
Again he tries to tell Louis what's happened. Again, he dissolves into tears. He falls at Louis feet. And it's at Louis feet that he announces the verdict of the convention death.
- [35:28]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, what a moving scene. And actually I'm embarrassed, but moved to report to the listeners that Tom actually can't continue because he too has dissolved into tears. So we're gonna have to take a break. And we'll return after the break when Tom has regained his composure to tell you about Louis fate. This episode is brought to you by Vanguard. Throughout history, people have always looked for ways to make life easier. Just think about the Romans. They built aqueducts to bring water straight to their cities so they didn't have to haul it themselves.
- [36:06]
Tom Holland
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Dominic Sandbrook
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- [36:57]
Tom Holland
I mean, imagine if you'd been a king and you had to spend the whole time working out your investment plans. What opportunities then for invading France. So if Vanguard's sorting out your isa, what will you do? Discover managed ISA. Today, when investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply.
- [37:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Welcome back to the Rest is History. The good news is that Tom has dried his tears. The bad news is that Louis Capet is facing an appointment with Madame Guillotine. So Tom, we ended with Malzeb's sobbing, announced the verdict to Louis and then the convention themselves send a delegation to Louis, don't they, to sort of formally read the verdict to him.
- [37:48]
Tom Holland
So that's three days after the trial.
- [37:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
And he remarkably still is very composed and indeed serene when he receives them.
- [37:58]
Tom Holland
Yeah, everyone comments on this, that almost from the moment he's brought to trial he does maintain this kind of incredible display of sang froid I guess is the only word for it. So the delegation from the convention come to see him on the afternoon of the 20th of January, so that's a Sunday, and they arrive early afternoon at 2:00 and the delegation includes Jacques Hebert, who is the, the guy who's always writing abusive pamphlets and so on, coming up with the kind of Trumpian nicknames for his enemies. Yeah, and the Minister of justice who is a man called Joseph Garrat. And they come into the, into Louis cell and they read out the sentence of the court to him and Louis has prepared a list, written list of three requests. So the first of these he, he asks a delay of three days to be able to prepare myself to appear in the presence of God. This is rejected. He's told he is going to be executed in the morning. So on the 21st of January then he requests freedom for his family. And you said how when he was with them for the, the four months of his imprisonment before the trial start, he had been living like a kind of middle class family under Covid with, you know, a garden, homeschooling, all that kind of thing. So I guess he's had a kind of last experience as the family man that I think he always was at heart. So he's had that. But now he wants to, to make sure that they will be set free, they will not be set free. So this request too will be rejected. But he is told by Gara, I mean Gara doesn't dash his hopes at that point. So he says that the nation, always magnanimous, always just will consider your family's fate. So Louis can go to the guillotine hoping at least that he's, he's secured the possibility of liberty for his family. Yeah, one kind of sub request to that though is granted, which is that, that Louis will be allowed to see his family for one last time. So as we said, they've been separated. And then his third request is also granted. And this is to hear confession from a priest who has maintained his independence from the kind of the republicans church that's been set up. So a non juring priest as they're called, one who hasn't sworn the oath of loyalty to the republic. And so Louis has had a recommendation from his sister Madame Elisabeth who is imprisoned in the temple with him. And this amazingly is an Irishman, it's a guy called Henry Essex Edgeworth, who is the son of an Irish convert and is related to Maria Edgeworth, the novelist. Yeah, yeah. So he'd been the son of a Church of Ireland priest who had converted to Catholicism when Henry was four and they'd moved to France and Edgeworth had been brought up by the Jesuits in Toulouse. He'd become a priest, he'd become Labbe de Firmont and he had become Madame Elisabeth's confessor in 1791. And he's very respected even by the kind of the Sans culottes, by the revolutionary leaders he's admired. And so he is allowed access to the king, or the ex king I should say say. And he arrives at the temple that evening at 7:00. And from this point on he will stay with the King until the very point of his execution.
- [41:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [41:18]
Tom Holland
So an hour after the Abbe de Fermont has arrived, Louis family are brought into his presence. So that's Marie Antoinette, the Dauphin, his son, his daughter Madame Ral and his sister Madame Elisabeth. And they're taken into the cell and although the guards keep watch, they can't hear what is said did. And the best account we have of this comes from the man who's been serving Louis as his valet is a man called Jean Baptiste Clary. And he had been appointed to the role of valet by the municipality of Paris. He's a republican, he's a revolutionary, but over the course of his term of Service. He has basically been turned. You know, he comes to admire and respect Louis for his. His serene behavior, for his song Frau, for his stiff upper lip. And in due course he comes to write a very favorable account of Louis last months and days and hours. And he says of this meeting, this last meeting between Louis and his family, it was impossible to hear anything. One only saw that after each phrase of the king, the sobs of the princesses redoubled and that then the king began again to speak. It was easy to judge from their movements that he himself had told them of his condemnation. And they're together for two hours and they can't bear to be parted. And in the end, it's Louis. Louis himself says, look, don't worry, you can see me again tomorrow morning before I. I go to the guillotine. And this is a lie, but it's designed to get them out of the cell in a mood of hope. But as the family are being ushered out, his daughter, the Princess Royale, bursts into floods of tears, hugs her father, collapses in a dead faint, and the family all gather round, bring her back. And this is the last time that they. They spend time together.
- [43:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
And she's a teenager, isn't she? She's what, 15 or so?
- [43:10]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So that's that. That's the last time that they are together. Meanwhile, the King is not the only person who has been hanging out with a priest because someone else has been receiving absolution. And this is someone that we mentioned in our last series. It's the man who will be operating the guillotine and executing the king the next morning. And this is Henri Sanson, the man who had been the royal executioner and who is, I guess, a kind of living link between the Ancien regime and the new world that the revolution has.
- [43:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Ushered in, because he's part of a. He's the sixth generation, I think, of Sansons who'd been executioners, isn't he?
- [43:52]
Tom Holland
Yes. And we did an episode on how all the kind of the weirdness surrounding executions and indeed the role of the executioner, had been systematically got rid of by the republican legislators. So Sanson, who had been the sinister figure in scarlet robes, who could just walk through marketplaces and grab whatever he wanted and wasn't allowed to go to theaters and things. He's now a state functionary. And the emphasis is on the rationale, the mechanical, the everyday. And so it's been decided that the King will be executed like any other criminal now in France, by the guillotine. And because they want A stage suitable for the execution of a former king. They fix on the largest open square in the whole of Paris, which is what today is the Place de la Concorde, but had originally been been the Place Louis can, Louis 15th. So there'd been a huge statue of Louis XV on a pedestal that had been removed back in August 1792. So the pedestal is now empty. And actually, in due course, a large statue of Liberty will be set up on it. It's also next to the Tuileries, so there's a kind of symbolic resonance there as well, because the Tuileries is seen as, you know, this place where the blood of citizens had been spilled on the orders of the tyrant, so it's fitting that he be put to death within eyesight of it. And the Place Louis can has been renamed the Place de la Revolution. Symbolically, it works on pretty much every level. And so the. The guillotine is brought there, it's set up in the middle of it. And Sanson, you know, he checks the hinges, he gets out the oil, makes sure the blade is properly weighted, sharpens it, and. And the whole point is that death is something kind of republican, something progressive, clean and modern. Clean and modern. So not appropriate to the dispatch, not just of a king, but of monarchy itself.
- [45:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Tom Holland
So the day dawns and massive preparations have been made. So armed men, soldiers, members of the National Guard have been ordered to line the entire route from the temple to the Place de la Revolution to make sure that the crowds are kept back and more importantly, that royalists can't kind of try and make an attempt to rescue the king or anything like that.
- [46:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Again, this is very Charles I in Whitehall, isn't it? Absolutely the same scenario.
- [46:27]
Tom Holland
One thing that isn't like Charles I, though, where members of the general public were allowed to watch the execution. In the Place de la Revolution, it's only soldiers. So there are only armed men. Men, about 80, 000 of them. There are 84 pieces of artillery. So the people there, they're armed and they're complete revolutionaries, they're complete republicans. There's no doubt about that.
- [46:47]
Dominic Sandbrook
If the guillotine doesn't work, they can turn their cannons on him.
- [46:50]
Tom Holland
Exactly. Blast him to pieces. So orders are issued that anyone who cries out for the king to be pardoned or who gives any manifestation of royalist sympathy at all will be arrested and imprisoned. Because the delegates to the convention, they're worried about the natural compassion of the feminine. They're worried that women are more prone to displays of sympathy than men. A decree is ordered that all women should stay in their homes. They're not allowed out to watch the display and execution. All houses are ordered to be shuttered, so again, people can't lean out and kind of watch the passing display. And the mayor of Paris has a very stentorian notice plastered across the walls of the city so that everyone can read it. The sword of the law, this notice declares, will strike the greatest and the guiltiest of conspirators. You have, citizens of Paris, during the course of this long trial, maintained the calm that is suitable for free men. You will know how to preserve it. At the instant of the execution of the tyrant, you will prove by the decorum of your behavior that an act of justice in no way resemble vengeance. That day will be for kings and for peoples at once a memorable example of the just punishment of despots and of the mournful dignity that a sovereign people must keep in the exercise of its power. And the thing is, people in the revolution just cannot stop talking like that.
- [48:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's true, yeah.
- [48:19]
Tom Holland
All speeches, all public proclamations, they all sound like they've been lifted from, you know, a school book of Latin prosecution.
- [48:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, they do, don't they? Well, they're doing it deliberately. That's how they think a revolutionary should write.
- [48:32]
Tom Holland
So early hours of the morning, the streets of Paris are sounding to the rumble of the artillery being taken into the Place de la Revolution. You hear the clopping of hooves of cavalry riding to take up place, tread of soldiers taking up their positions. 5:00am Sanson, the executioner, is wakened by his assistant so that he can go again, you know, check all the mechanics and everything. He doesn't want it to go wrong. And at the same time, in the temple. 5:00, Louis is wakened by Clary, his valet, who shaves him. 6am, Louis last confession with the Abbe de Fermont, his confessor. He has not eaten the night before. He doesn't eat now because the last rites are accompanied by fasting. 7am, he is dressed by Clary. He wears, we're told, a fresh shirt, a white waistcoat, grey trousers, a light jacket. And Louis takes off his wedding ring, to be given to Marie Antoinette. And he has a royal seal which he's taken from his watch, so that hadn't been confiscated. And this is to be given to his son. And his son, of course, before the morning is out, will become, if you are A royalist, Louis.Xvii745 A delegation from the city of Paris arrives. They are accompanied by 14 soldiers. They stand to attention. In two rows outside Louis cell, Louis asks for permission for Clary to cut his hair at the nape of his neck because he doesn't want the humiliation of having Sanson the executioner do it. Which is something of course, that Sanson has done many, many times over the course of his career. But this is denied him. He is a common criminal. He's going to be treated like a common criminal. Louis then kneels down. He's blessed by the Abbe. They then stand around. It's a bit of embarrassment. Nobody's quite sure what to do. So Louis then says, pat, you know, let's head off, let's go. They go outside, it's very cold, there's a fog everywhere, so hard to see through the gloom. Out in the streets, piles of snow so that people can get by along the road. I said that Louis is to be treated like a common criminal. There is one exception to this, and that is that he is given a coach so he's not put in the tumbril in the open cart. And the reason for that is basically security. If he's in the coach, it's much easier to guard him. And the coach has been provided by Garad, the minister of Justice. It's a great bottle green thing, although not as large as the coach that.
- [50:53]
Dominic Sandbrook
Not the Varenne super coach, the Varenne.
- [50:55]
Tom Holland
The Varenne wasp like coach that they take into Varennes. So Louis gets into the coach. There are two members of the security services, I suppose you could say, sitting on either side. The Abbe sits at the front and the whole way there, Louis is murmuring the prayer of the dying over and over to himself, otherwise he doesn't say anything. And as they set off, there are a hundred mounted police behind it, 100 mounted members of the National Guard. So the rumbling of the wheels, the clopping of the horses, generally silence from the watching crowds who amassed behind the lines of the guards along the route. They set off at 8 o'clock and it takes them two hours to get there. There. And in the course of those two hours there are two royalist attempts to reach Louis. They're both easily subdued, easily stopped. And at 10 o'clock the carriage arrives in the Place de la Revolution and it stands still for five minutes. And then Sanson's assistant steps up to it, opens up the door, the steps are pulled down and Louis is seized by Sanson and his assistants. When they touch him, Louis loses his sense of composure because we've talked about that sense that the king's body is inviolate. How dare people manhandle him. But then he catches the eye of his confessor of the Abbe. And the Abbe kind of says, you know, don't do this. This is, you don't need to do this. And clearly they've talked about the Passion of Christ. And essentially Louis is thinking, well, you know, his savior suffered worse. So he, he, he accepts to be handled by, by the executioners. So he, then he takes off his coat and he pulls down his shirt so that his, his neck is open, his wrists are bound behind his back, his wig is taken off. And then Sancel comes with, with the, the shears, with the clippers, and his hair is cut so that the nape of his neck is exposed. He climbs up to the guillotine. He has to lean on the Abbe because he's got his hands behind his back, so a bit unstable. And when he gets onto the scaffold, he tries to address the crowd. And he seems to have uttered a few sentences. So according to various accounts, he says, people, I die innocent of the crimes that they ascribe to me. I forgive the authors of my death, and I pray to God that the blood you are about to spill will never fall back upon France. And at this point, there is a great drum roll. The captain of the guard has been prepared to do this should Louis try to make a public speech. And so Louis's voice is drowned out as the drums are rolling. Saint's assistants get hold of Louis. They strap him down onto the board and they push him out so that his head is protruding, ready for the blade to cut through the neck. It's Sanson himself who pulls on the cord. The blade hisses down, cuts straight through Louis's neck, and the head drops into the basket. And it is 10:22am Sanson then does what he'd do with any beheaded criminal. He picks up the head and he shows it to the crowd. And the people roar back in answer. Vive la nation. Vive la Republique. There is then the sound of gunfire of artillery to mark the moment. And in the distant temple, Marie Antoinette hears it. She knows what it signals, and she drops to her knees before her son, who a few minutes before had been the Dauphin. And now, in the opinion of Marie Antoinette and all royalists in France, is Louis xvii.
- [54:39]
Dominic Sandbrook
Crikey, what a moment. So you mentioned the crowd. The crowd, of course, are mainly troops because the ordinary people of Paris have been kept away from this, this moment. But within a couple of hours of this. Am I not right in Thinking that the. The troops have moved away, people come into the streets. It's a little bit like kind of public holiday. People are strolling around and, you know, I know it's January, so it's not exactly that they're enjoying the sunshine, but people are acting as though it's just an ordinary Sunday or something, sort of taking the air as though nothing has happened.
- [55:12]
Tom Holland
So Marat, a couple of days later, he. He describes the public mood on, on that day in the. The hours that follow Louis execution. And he says that the people seemed animated with a serene joy. One might have said that they had just attended a religious festival and he might well have put it like that because essentially, you know, and Mara is very conscious of this. What has been staged is a kind of ritual of sacrifice. And it's a sacrifice that has enabled the Republic to be born in a way that it had not previously been born. So Mara, in the article he wrote on the 23rd, so two days after the execution, he goes on to say, the head of the tyrant has just fallen. The same blow has overthrown the foundations of monarchy among us. His life is no more. His body is now nothing but a corpse. At last. I believe in the Republic. So amazing, the Mara of all people, this is what it has taken for him to believe that the Republic, republic exists at last. And there's a massive paradox here because Louis did have to die as a king for the Republic to be born, because otherwise the sacrifice wouldn't have had the quality that it does have. But the moment he's dead and the Republic has been given existence, then his body has to be treated as though he had been nothing, as though he's just an ordinary citizen convicted of a crime, nothing more, nothing less, no kind of special treatment in any way. So certainly Louis body is not allowed to be buried in a kind of, you know, the royal catacombs or anything like that. There had been a request before the execution from royalists for him to be buried next to his father. That had been denied. But at the same time, no special kind of desecration, no humiliations perpetrated on the corpse. Instead he has to. He's to be buried that the Convention has decreed in the ordinary place of burial for citizens in the section that includes where he will be executed. That's what they've said. So just as though he's any other condemned criminal, so he gets taken to the church that serves as the burial ground for executed criminals. His funeral service is conducted not by the Abbe who had been his confessor but by a priest who is acceptable to the republic, to the revolutionaries. His body is then thrown into a ditch on a bed of quicklime, which will help it become kind of mulch. The head is tossed in as well and then it's covered by more quick lime. So there are. This is a communal grave. There is no to be no marker. Instead it is left mingled up with other corpses where it will decompose the whole thing. It's no special treatment whatsoever. Yeah, and that's the intention. But of course, in the long run, it turns out neither side really content with this spin on the execution of Louis or the. The fate of his body. And so for royalists, obviously this is a terrible crime. And. And as had happened with Charles the First, so with Louis xvi, it doesn't take them long before they are comparing Louis fate to that of Christ.
- [58:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right, a martyr.
- [58:14]
Tom Holland
He's a martyr. Yeah, he's a Christian martyr. A martyr for monarchy, but above all a martyr for the true church. Yeah, but republicans as well, and it may be that they are reacting to the kind of the royalist propaganda. They find it impossible to rest content with the idea that Louis had. Had died simply as a common criminal. So already within a week of Louis execution, you get newspapers claiming that his death, rather than being what it had been, which was something wholly unexceptional, that had been the whole point, had actually been something shameful and disgraceful. So in one paper you get an account at the instant that speech was so brutally taken from him by a definite beating of drums, Louis entered into a violent anger, stamped his foot, struggled with vigor with the executioner's assistance, let out terrible cr. And fought to the end to such an extent that he had not his neck but the back of his head and his jaw horribly mutilated by the fatal knife. So this is a claim that is quite often made, that it took two goes of the guillotine to sever his.
- [59:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
Neck, which is not true.
- [59:16]
Tom Holland
And also there are reports that as he died, he let out a piercing scream. Again, not true. You know, his vocal cords have been severed. And there are also claims which supposedly derive from Sanson and Sanson, you know, they become so repeated that Sanso actually has to publicly reject them, that on the night before his execution and the hours before, he's taken to. To the guillotine, Louis had been stuffing his face. And this is to repeat, the old child, you know, that he's the pig, the pig king. And there are accounts that, you know, he'd been so fat that he hadn't fitted onto the board that, you know, that he's executed on. And there's another one that his, you know, his. The bulges and folds of his neck had been so obese wouldn't fit in the slot. Again, not true. I mean, simply not true.
- [60:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, because of course he'd been fasting because. For religious reasons. Yeah.
- [60:07]
Tom Holland
Yes, he had. And so it's an attempt to kind of contradict that. And what it does, of course, is to ensure that Louis's execution, rather than providing, as it were, a clear cut between the age of monarchy and the republic and that the republic is now uncontested. It's not uncontested at all. The way in which both Royalists and Republicans try and rewrite the story of Louis execution actually bodes very ill for France because it suggests that there are deep, entrenched, principled opinions about what has been done, that there isn't really any hope, hope of reconciling them. And it suggests that even though perhaps the foreign threats to France have been beaten off, although who knows for how long now that the King has been executed, who knows what the international response to that will be. But that may not be the worst of it because it suggests that actually within the body of France itself, a civil war may be brewing.
- [61:14]
Dominic Sandbrook
Wow. What a dramatic end to the third series on the French Revolution. Season three has come to an end with the execution of Louis xvi. But many of the big players are still around and in play. Marie Antoinette, Robe, Speer, Danton, Marat. In season four, which will be coming later this year, we will find out what happens to all of those characters. A little spoiler alert for you. None of them will make it into. Well, they definitely won't be around in season six or seven, will they? That's. That's for sure. So there's an awful lot of drama, a lot of bloodshed to come, no doubt. In our forthcoming bonus episodes for the Merchant's History Club members, we'll be talking about some of the issues that have come up in this series. But thank you for listening. We will return to the French Revolution later in the year. Tom, Merci beaucoup. Et au revoir.
- [62:07]
Tom Holland
Au revoir.
- [62:18]
Al Murray
Hi there. I'm Al Murray, co host of we have ways of making you talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Goal Hanger.
- [62:26]
Carrie Underwood
And I'm James Holland, best selling World War II historian. And together we tell the best stories from the war. This time we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by The Nazis on the west, the Battle of the Bulge.
- [62:39]
Al Murray
And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way round, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality.
- [62:52]
Carrie Underwood
Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the ages. From their generals at the top to the gis on the front line, full of gumption and grit, the bold should be remembered as a great victory for the usa.
- [63:07]
Al Murray
And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search. We have ways, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Yeah.
- [63:19]
Carrie Underwood
Anyway, so who is Overstuff Van Fuhrer?
- [63:22]
Al Murray
Joachim Piper, but I see his jaunty hat and I just think skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than that.
- [63:33]
Carrie Underwood
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, be that is May. He's 29 years old and he's got, he's got a very interesting career really because he comes from a, you know, a pretty right wing family. Let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early, early stage. He's very. International socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. Yeah, he took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with, with the 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division. Yeah, did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant, then went off and commanded troops in, in the Eastern Front, rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, it's not many people that age are no ber. Stern Van Fuhrer, which is sort of Colonel.
- [64:08]
Al Murray
Yes, I, you see, what must it have been like if you're in, if, if Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think? Well, he only got that job because of, because of his connections. For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he's, he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen ss. He's dolloped in, having come from head office, as it were. It must be a peculiar position to be in. Right. He's got lots to prove. Right, that's what I'm saying.
- [64:36]
Carrie Underwood
Yeah. And he's, he's, he's From a sort of middle class background as well.
- [64:39]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [64:40]
Carrie Underwood
But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never, never really recovers and actually has died in of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horst who's also joined the SS&TOTEN cop Verbanda and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941.
- [64:59]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [64:59]
Carrie Underwood
Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring. Fearless, you know, obviously courageous, you know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire. The destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans. Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got. Iron Cross, second Class, first Class Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk briefly in Northern Italy, actually, actually then in Ukraine, then in Normandy. He suffers a nervous breakdown.
- [65:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [65:36]
Carrie Underwood
And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August, and he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutetch. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panzer Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd.
- [65:51]
Al Murray
I mean, but isn't that interesting though, because if you're a lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized, you don't get time off. How you could interpret this is. This is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? He's Himmler's adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they, where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know, and because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized. If he has a nervous breakdown, he isn't told like an ordinary German soldier. There's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate. Go back to work.
- [66:28]
Carrie Underwood
Yes. And it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue.
- [66:30]
Al Murray
Well, yes, of course, but, but you.
- [66:31]
Carrie Underwood
Know what SS soldier said of him? Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done.
- [66:38]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [66:38]
Carrie Underwood
You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly manic energy. Yeah, kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a. He's a driver, you know, all those things.
- [66:52]
Al Murray
He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer. He's imbued with. He knows what's expected. Extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of. He's the Fuhr Princip writ large, isn't he, as a. As an SS officer. Yeah, which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.