402. Question Time: India vs. Pakistan | What Happens Now?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics – Episode 402: Question Time: India vs. Pakistan | What Happens Now?

Introduction

In episode 402 of The Rest Is Politics, hosted by Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart, the focus centers on the escalating tensions between India and Pakistan. Released on May 7, 2025, the episode delves deep into the recent developments in Kashmir, the historical underpinnings of the conflict, and the potential ramifications on both regional and global scales. The hosts engage in a comprehensive discussion, weaving together current events with historical context to provide listeners with an insightful analysis of what lies ahead for these two nuclear-armed neighbors.

Context of Current India-Pakistan Tensions

The episode opens with Alastair Campbell introducing the heightened tensions following a recent terrorist attack in Kashmir. Speaking at [01:23], Campbell explains that India has retaliated by targeting nine different sites across Pakistan, labeling them as terrorist infrastructure. The immediate aftermath has seen India reporting ten deaths and thirty-two injuries, while Pakistan counters with claims of twenty-six fatalities, forty-six injuries, and the downing of five Indian fighter jets. Campbell notes the gravity of the situation, highlighting the mutual accusations and the potential for further escalation.

Historical Background of Kashmir

Rory Stewart provides a historical lens to the current conflict, emphasizing the long-standing disputes over Kashmir's status. At [02:47], Stewart recounts the partition of British India in 1947, which led to the creation of India and Pakistan and the subsequent conflict over the predominantly Muslim region of Kashmir. He underscores that Kashmir has been a "crucible of a lot of the violence in India," tracing its roots back to the reluctance of its Muslim-majority population to accede to India post-independence. This historical backdrop sets the stage for understanding the present-day tensions and the strategic significance of Kashmir for both nations.

Recent Attacks and Responses

The discussion progresses to the specifics of the recent terrorist attack and India's subsequent actions. Campbell mentions Maulana Masood Azhar, a United Nations-designated terrorist based in Pakistan, who has publicly claimed that ten members of his family and four associates were killed in the Indian strikes ([04:55]). Stewart assesses the situation, suggesting that while India's strike may be precise, there is always the risk of collateral damage due to potential intelligence failures. He also addresses Pakistan's response, questioning whether Pakistan will carry out retaliatory strikes against Indian military or paramilitary installations.

The Role of Pakistan's Military and Political Dynamics

Stewart delves into the internal dynamics of Pakistan, highlighting the influential role of the military in the country's governance. At [07:41], he explains that Pakistan operates under a military-influenced democracy, where military officials often hold sway over political decisions. He points out the appointment of a new, more religiously conservative Chief of Army Staff, whose public rhetoric has been increasingly inflammatory towards India. This shift in military leadership raises concerns about Pakistan's potential for a more aggressive stance in the ongoing conflict.

International Reactions and Implications

The hosts examine the international community's response to the unfolding crisis. Stewart notes the diminishing role of traditional global powers in mediating India-Pakistan tensions, drawing parallels to past crises in Iraq and Afghanistan ([07:41]-[09:34]). He contrasts this with the 2019 situation, where Pakistan's downing of an Indian plane did not escalate into a broader conflict, partly due to international pressure. However, in the current scenario, with global distractions—such as the Russia-Ukraine war, conflicts in the Middle East, and issues in Africa—the likelihood of significant international intervention appears reduced.

At [09:34], Campbell references former U.S. President Donald Trump's passive stance on the conflict, which contrasts sharply with previous administrations' more active mediation efforts. This perceived indifference from the United States could embolden both India and Pakistan to adopt more hardline positions without fearing substantial international backlash.

Impacts on UK Politics and Communities

Campbell and Stewart also discuss the repercussions of the India-Pakistan tensions on the United Kingdom, particularly concerning the significant Indian and Pakistani diaspora. Stewart recalls the challenges faced by British communities with large Indian and Pakistani populations, including heated debates in Parliament over issues like Israel-Palestine, Cyprus, and Kashmir ([10:37]). The current crisis poses a risk of ethnic tensions spilling over into UK society, potentially exacerbating divisions and affecting domestic politics.

Moreover, Campbell highlights economic implications, arguing that Pakistan's economy, already strained by a massive IMF bailout program, stands to suffer more from the conflict compared to India's more robust economic framework ([13:29]-[13:56]). The prolonged conflict could further destabilize Pakistan’s economy, increasing internal pressures and possibly fuelling nationalist sentiments that may, in turn, impact its foreign policy decisions.

The Role of Leadership

A pivotal part of the discussion revolves around the leadership styles of Narendra Modi and the new Pakistani Chief of Army Staff. Stewart describes Modi as a confident leader with a stronger economic position, potentially facing increased political pressure to respond vigorously to Pakistan’s actions ([05:30]-[09:34]). On the Pakistani side, the new military chief's conservative and nationalist background suggests a propensity for more aggressive tactics, given his influential status within Pakistan’s political landscape.

Additionally, the hosts touch upon Omar Abdullah, the Chief Minister of Kashmir, who has publicly urged Pakistan to de-escalate the situation by "lowering the guns" ([11:48]). Campbell speculates on Abdullah's motivations, questioning whether his stance is a genuine call for peace or influenced by his political standing within India. Stewart elaborates on Abdullah's complex position, noting his mixed reception in both India and Pakistan due to his past interactions and political maneuvers.

Historical Parallels and Future Scenarios

Stewart draws parallels between the current India-Pakistan tensions and other historical conflicts, such as Northern Ireland, where sectarian divisions have deeply influenced political dynamics. He cautions that without careful management, the Kashmir conflict could spiral into a wider nuclear confrontation, given that both countries possess nuclear weapons ([07:41]-[11:48]).

The discussion also explores potential future scenarios. In the best-case scenario, Pakistan responds with a calibrated, limited attack, prompting a measured Indian response, leading to a de-escalation of tensions similar to the aftermath of the 2019 incident. In the worst-case scenario, miscalculations or further provocations could ignite a full-blown conflict, drawing in international actors and possibly triggering a nuclear exchange ([10:37]-[11:48]).

Conclusion

In wrapping up the episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart emphasize the precarious nature of the current situation between India and Pakistan. They highlight the critical need for measured responses from both nations and the importance of international diplomatic efforts to prevent further escalation. The historical complexities, intertwined with present-day political dynamics, make the Kashmir conflict one of the most sensitive and potentially explosive geopolitical issues.

Stewart aptly sums up the episode by underscoring the delicate balance required to navigate the path forward: "the danger, of course, is around miscalculation," he states ([07:41]). Campbell concurs, stressing that economic disparities and internal political pressures in Pakistan could complicate India's strategic decisions ([13:29]-[13:56]).

Ultimately, the hosts call for a nuanced understanding of the India-Pakistan conflict, urging listeners to consider both historical contexts and current geopolitical shifts. They advocate for continued dialogue, both within Pakistan and India, and support from the international community to foster a peaceful resolution to the Kashmir dispute.

Notable Quotes

• Alastair Campbell ([02:23]): "After a terrorist attack in Kashmir a couple of weeks ago, India has taken action against Pakistan, blaming Pakistan for the terror attack they've launched."

• Rory Stewart ([04:55]): "India is claiming that the people struck were people actively involved in planning new terrorist attacks on India."

• Alastair Campbell ([05:30]): "Maulana Masood Azhar... has said publicly that ten members of his family and four associates have been killed in the strike."

• Rory Stewart ([07:41]): "Pakistan is a democracy under a military government... this man is probably the most powerful man in Pakistan."

• Rory Stewart ([10:37]): "We have to watch this space. It is a dangerous moment."

• Alastair Campbell ([13:29]): "Economically, this is going to hurt Pakistan a lot more than India."

Final Thoughts

Episode 402 of The Rest Is Politics offers an in-depth exploration of the volatile India-Pakistan relations, highlighting the historical grievances, current provocations, and the intricate balance of power that defines their interactions. Campbell and Stewart adeptly navigate the complexities of the Kashmir conflict, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the potential pathways forward. As tensions remain high, the insights offered in this episode serve as a crucial guide for anyone seeking to grasp the nuances of South Asian geopolitics.

Transcript

[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

Practical, painless, no committee required. Welcome to the Rest is Politics. Question time with me, Alastair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And with me Rory Stewart.

[Alastair Campbell]

You will notice that we are dressed in a certain way now, me in a shirt and tie and Rory in one of his Afghan waistcoats and then later in the program wearing very different clothes. And the reason for that is that we recorded most of what you're about to hear yesterday and we also talked about Kashmir because we had a question from none other than a man named Mustafa Suleiman, Internet guru and who's been on leading before. And he asked a question. Introduction to the history of Kashmir was what he called extremely lightweight and completely glossed over the important colonial context. So we talked about that and we talked about Kashmir. But of course, since then, and I regret to say, as we predicted after the terrorist attack in Kashmir a couple of weeks ago, now India has taken action against Pakistan, blamed Pakistan for the terror attack they've launched. They've targeted nine different sites, insisting that they're all what they call terrorist infrastructure. So we have India saying that 10 people have died, 32 injured, Pakistan saying 26 people have been killed, 46 injured. And Pakistan also saying that they claim to have shot down five Indian fighter jets. So this is very, very, very tense. Rory, what do you make of it?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, two weeks ago, we discussed the options that faced Modi. So there was this very, very disturbing attack in Kashmir targeted against Indian holidaymakers, where they were massacred in this beautiful Swiss Valley. And Kashmir, as we explained, is the absolute sort of crucible of a lot of the violence in India in particular, because a predominantly Muslim population, which was reluctant to join India after 47. We can get into the details of how that worked. Mustafa Suleiman's question later. But anyway, became part of the Indian state. And after a period of relative peace, this terrorist attack happened. And that then, as we said, was likely to lead to a series of options for Narendra Modi. 2016, 19. When there were attacks, India did respond. And what we pointed out two weeks ago is that the big debate was what kind of response was it going to be a response within Jemmu Kashmir, Was it going to be a response within Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, Was it going to be within hybrid Paktunwala, or was it going to go into Punjab itself? And the closer it got into Punjab, the more risky we thought it would be. And indeed, it has happened in Punjab. One of these attacks is only 30 km away from Lahore. And the reason that matters is that Punjab is the big population, economic center of Pakistan. This isn't an attack simply up on the border region. So it's got symbolic importance. But as you say, it seems to have been a relatively limited strike. Now, these are all relative terms, but the footage suggests it was more on the precision end. And India at least is claiming that the people struck were people actively involved in planning new terrorist attacks on India. Now, you and I will remember from Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere that that is what governments tend to say, and sometimes it turns out not to be the case and you can hit the wrong targets and your intelligence goes wrong. But anyway, that at the moment is.

[Alastair Campbell]

A just jump in there. There is a guy, Maulana Masood Azhar, who is a UN designated terrorist based in Pakistan. He has said publicly that 10 members of his family and four of his closest associates have been killed in the strike. Now, I have no idea of knowing that's true, but that I thought that although I can see why he did it and why he said all the things he did in a way that may have hinted helped the Indian narrative, that we are only targeting people involved in what they call the terrorist Infrastructure, Absolutely.

[Rory Stewart]

I think that. So the most optimistic scenario from the point of view of what we, I suppose the world is concentrating on most, which is peace, would be that India's done a relatively precise strike against terrorist infrastructure. But, and here are the buts I talked about the Punjab but. The next but is the but you mentioned, which is the shooting down of these planes. Now India at the moment, I think has acknowledged two planes down, not five. But Pakistan is saying that three of the planes shot down were Rafael fighters which India recently purchased from France and were meant to be great game changers in the Indian Air Force because they allow you to shoot from, from the Indian side of the border remotely. So there is a real sense of potential humiliation for the Indian military that these famed fighters were shot down. Now again, that isn't necessarily the end of the world because again in 2019, Pakistan shot down a plane, captured an Indian pilot who was quickly returned and Third World war indeed did not happen. But there is a question of whether Modi will come under political pressure because those planes came down. And then the bigger question of course is what does Pakistan do now? And in 2019, Pakistan responded with strikes into India which India denied really happened at all and said didn't cause any damage. What sort of strikes can Pakistan do? Well, they are not the equivalent of these terrorist bases in India. So they would have to hit military, paramilitary infrastructure. And the question is, does Pakistan hit, hit Indian military bases with soldiers in killing people or does it more symbolically hit half deserted border posts? And this is where the danger comes because there are certain factors which make it more dangerous in 2019. One of them is the new Pakistan Chief of the Army Staff comes from a more religiously conservative, more nationalist background and has been making much more inflammatory comments about India. So you've got that Pakistan side and.

[Alastair Campbell]

The Pakistan I think also just jumping on that as well. I think what's worth saying about him as well and about Pakistani military figures more generally, we look at arm, we think of our military figures and American military figures and European military figures who tend to be very much subordinate to the political leadership. This is a guy whose face you will see on posters, you will see it on the back of cars and lorries. He is a big public figure with a big public profile.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. And in fact, to some extent Pakistan is a democracy under a military government. The decision to, for example, lock up Imran Khan was driven very much by the military. The military organized and inverted commas the elections, which means stuff ballot boxes in quite a lot of the country. There are, I think we talked about this, that when you go into the Pakistan Parliament and go to visit the Chief Whip's office, you see a colonel staffing standing there in the Chief Whip's office, effectively telling people how to do the whipping operation. So, yeah, this man is probably the most powerful man in Pakistan. And so how he thinks about the world really matters. On the other side, you've got a different Modi, a more confident Modi, an Indian economy that is a stronger position that may feel under more political pressure to respond vigorously if Pakistan strikes him. Let me get him the tip for the tats. Back and forth. And then the final difference is that we're in the world of Trump. So 2016, 2019, there was a huge concerted effort, as you can imagine, by the old kind of international players led by the US to try to help broker peace. This time, Trump signals strong supports for Modi. But more than that, he signals indifference. He's not somebody who's particularly interested in getting involved in an India Pakistan dispute. And Modi may feel that he has more freedom and even Pakistan may feel there have more freedom to be aggressive.

[Alastair Campbell]

So Trump was asked about it yesterday, last night, and he talked about it almost as if he was a bystander. Yeah, I just heard about that as we were coming to the Oval Office. And, you know, these guys have been fighting for a long time. It looks like a bad one. And, you know, I hope they can sort this out. It was like, very, very, very passive in the. In the response. And I guess the other point to make, I mean, it's not as if we don't have enough international crises going on at the moment. I think to have Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Gaza, Sudan, all the other conflicts are going across Africa, and then to have India, Pakistan, and as we said when we discussed this a couple of weeks ago, with China, very, very closely involved as having it, the third part of Kashmir, I mean, I guess the other thing we have to be very wary about is in those countries, including ours, where there is a very large Indian population and a very large Pakistani population, sometimes living in the same places. I mean, whether we just got to keep an eye on that kind of leading, those sort of tensions spilling over as well.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, you're completely right. When I was in Parliament, and it would have been true for you when you were in government, that the three big issues that really hit British communities were Israel, Palestine, Cyprus and India, Pakistan over Kashmir. And different MPs with different constituencies would come under huge pressure on those issues. They're Very much live issues in the British Parliament. They're not just international issues. So I think we have to watch this space. It is a dangerous moment. The danger, of course, is around miscalculation. Best case scenario is Pakistan responds with a relatively calibrated, limited response. India says, okay, that's done now and the whole thing dies away, as it did after 2019. Worst case scenario, Pakistan hits in a way that Modi feels forced to respond to. And off we go. And then of course, people will point out the obvious, which is that these are two nuclear armed powers. Two nuclear armed powers with a very, very bad history of relationships between them.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now, the chief minister in Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, and I don't know exactly where he stands on the political perspective, he has been out straight away saying that the onus lies with Pakistan to, as he put it, lower the guns. Now, is that because he is the chief minister of Kashmir wanting to bring down the temperature, or is that because he's the chief minister of Kashmir? Because what I'd heard before is he didn't have very good relations with the, the Indian government.

[Rory Stewart]

So Omar Abdullah is a very interesting figure. He is of course a Muslim who strongly opposed the decision by Modi to make Kashmir a federal minister of territory. He was criticized for having meetings with the Pakistan government. So to some extent, if you're a Hindu nationalist, Umar Abdurah is a slightly suspect figure. And in fact he's actually been detained in the past. But he's also now the chief minister of an Indian state and therefore from the Pakistani point of view, a little bit suspect on that side, probably, you know, without sounding too centrist out about it, maybe a sign that he's doing a good job. If both sides are a little bit suspicious of his stance, final thing on him, he was born in Rochford in Essex. His mom is English and both his father and his grandfather were chief ministers of Jammu Kashmir. We talk about this a little bit with Japan, we talk about this a little bit with India. But you with your class analysis of politicians and their backgrounds, here's another example.

[Alastair Campbell]

I guess the other final point for me is that economically this is going to hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. India much bigger, bigger military and so forth. And Pakistan at the moment, they've got this massive IMF bailout program underway and you know, they've got real economic problems. So India can probably endure this longer and with more titting and tatting than the Pakistanis.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes. Although I think Pakistan's resilience and nationalism can be fueled by the economic problems, so that we have these sort of weird things.

[Alastair Campbell]

Listen, because we won't now have in this episode your answer to Mustafa Suleiman, do you want to just briefly give the. An edited version of the answer that you gave and rebut the idea? No, I don't think we should rebut it, because what we said was, we said when we discussed this, let's start in 1947. And he essentially. Mustafa is essentially saying we didn't focus enough on the history. Yeah, fair point.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. So Mustafa's point, which is a good one, is that a lot of the tension between Muslim and Hindu communities in India does partly reflect the fact that the British Empire, the Raj, emphasized those identities lent into them and created different legal structures for Muslim communities. And part of this was a policy, frankly, of divide and rule, pitting communities against each other in order to keep the British government in place. And partition, which created the problem in Kashmir, tore India apart, was put together very, very quickly, very hastily, the Radcliffe Commission that drew the border. And this is something I'd love to talk to Willi Dalrymple and the Empire POD team about. How odd it is, Britain in India, along with all the unbelievably negative things, racism, colonial exploitation, killing, looting that took place. The one thing they traditionally prided themselves on was granular knowledge. So, you know, John Lawrence, who was the Viceroy, spent 40 years in India, spoke Indian languages fluently, spent a lot of time in rural areas, and yet when it came to partition, Radcliffe, who chaired the commission, hadn't visited India. And the thing was put together in five weeks, drawing lines right the way through the middle of villages, and somehow ignoring 200 years of British granular study of India in the process. And it's also finally true that the creation of this Kashmir problem is about the Maharaja of Kashmir, and that's partly about the British relationship with what's called the princely states. In other words, the British Empire in India directly administered certain places, you know, Bengal and Calcutta, for example. But there were 537, I think, currency states, ranging from tiny things about the size of my constituency around Penrith, to enormous places like Hyderabad, which were ruled indirectly through political agents. And Kashmir was one of those territories. So thank you, Mustafa, for drawing attention to the fact that British rule is also part of the backstory for the tensions happening in Jammu Kashmir, although I would also say it's a very, very classic situation, which would remind you, Alistair, a bit of Northern Ireland, of the real problems of a government, increasingly Hindu nationalist government, administering a predominantly Muslim territory. Where wherever those sectarian divisions came from, even if they were exaggerated by colonial authorities, are very real.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I, I think I've told you before about a time when we were in India and Pakistan and we went to Pakistan first and I remember as we were leaving the dinner to go to India, one of the military guys just saying to me, just remind them that the missiles are not very far away. And then with this sort of big toothy grin, the hatred is deep and the politics is to a large extent defined by Kashmir. This has almost become an emergency podcast, Roy, but it's what we'll call a Q and a top up kind of emergency question. And now listeners can get on with listening to the stuff that recorded yesterday.

[Rory Stewart]

Welcome to the restless Politics Question time.

[Alastair Campbell]

With me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

Alistair, just to put you on the spot here, Deborah from Germany, I think I can guess your answer to this, but should Tony Blair be expelled from the Labour Party for his egregious backstabbing manoeuvre on the eve of the local elections? I'm quoting Deborah here. Trashing the government's Net Zero policy, which led to rejoicing in the ranks of Reform and the Conservatives and will definitely have caused some voters to switch to either Reform Conservatives or the Green Party or Sam from Cambridge, Does Alastair think Tony Blair's climate change outburst was wise given the clear conflict of interest with the Saudi interests? Or perhaps more politely, so we don't actually get your back up from the beginning and put you into fuel defensive mode. Douglas Thackway, do you agree with Tony Blair's intervention regarding Net Zero policy in the uk? Do you agree?

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I'm guessing that Deborah and Sam and Douglas and the many, many, many others who asked questions about Tony Blair and Net Zero have not necessarily read the Tony Blair Institute report that led to the screaming front page headlines. However, I did remind him in an exchange of messages and a phone call that he is a very experienced politician. He knows that in the week of the local election, at a time when the reform in particular are banging on about Net Zero, the timing was far from helpful.

[Rory Stewart]

Presumably in his defence, what he said to you on the phone or the text is, you know, that really wasn't what I meant and if people had read the full report, they would have realized they had a much more nuanced position to which your response would have.

[Alastair Campbell]

Been, that's all very well, but we are three days away from the local elections and nobody's going to read it in the way that you'd like them to. If you do read the report, which I did afterwards, actually, there's lots where he supports what the government is doing. He's actually making a bigger point about some of the strategic issues involved in, in the, in the movie. I think it's fair to say Ed Miliband was not happy.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, then let me try to play devil's advocate and see if I can make the case for Tony Blair. So channeling Blair, I think what he'd probably say is we're in real danger of ending up with expensive energy. We saw that British Steel, 50% more for the energy to run British steel than European competitors, probably four times more than US competitors. We are chasing, dropping carbon production in the UK and killing our industries potentially in the process. And we're not making much impact on the big global picture in the end because we're a pretty small economy.

[Alastair Campbell]

That's why he was actually addressing the world rather than the uk.

[Rory Stewart]

But yeah, and we're not properly taxing carbon consumption. In other words, we push all the factories into China and we continue to buy just as many T shirts and toys as we did in the past. So we're not actually affecting our full carbon footprint. So I think there are two sorts of pretty serious arguments you can make, politics aside, which actually have been made in some of our leading interviews. The first argument is the argument that Dieter Helm made when we interviewed him on Leading, which is that the whole thing is nonsense and the climate stuff is nonsense and the Paris targets are nonsense unless we actually put a proper global carbon tax in place which properly puts the cost of embedded carbon into place. And the second argument, which is the argument that was made to some extent when we interviewed Bill Gates and Reid Hoffman on the show, that the real answer to this is technology, and that rather than cutting production, what we should be doing is putting a lot of money into carbon capture, AI nuclear fusion.

[Alastair Campbell]

This is exactly what Tony was saying.

[Rory Stewart]

And presumably because he hangs out with people like Reid Hoffman and Bill Gates.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, and also because I think he has thought it through and his institute's thinking it through. I don't disagree with that, but I don't resolve from the point that he is ultimately one of the most high profile, experienced politicians on the planet. Anyway, we had some. We had some very friendly, lively exchanges about whether it would have, as I said yesterday, I don't want to sound like Roy Keane, but Tony, that wouldn't have happened in my day.

[Rory Stewart]

Very good. Okay.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now can I ask you about another fascinating, massively important political event not well it is an election, isn't it? Yeah. We've got quite a few questions about Conclave. Hugo Craggs seems to think he speaks for all humanity. We have all watched Conclave. We don't know that we've all watched Conclave, but fair enough, Hugo. A lot of people have watched Conclave, the film. So, question to you is, who are the front runners for the papacy? From which wing of the Church are they, and how will the various different factions play out in this Trumpian world? Well, of course, as we said yesterday, Trump thinks he should be the Pope, but let's park that.

[Rory Stewart]

Let me begin by saying it's an amazing election and people have really seen this in that film, that Robert Harris book and the film that came out of it. I've been talking to Rupert Short, who was the TLS religion editor and now teaches at Oxford and has written a really interesting book called the Eclipse of Christianity and why It Matters. And he's been very patient, gave me two hours on the Conclave and what's happening with Pope. I'll try to digest it. With apologies to Rupert, who objects simplification. I think the first thing he'd say is that every one of these elections is a massive, massive game changer. And the really classic example is Pius XII was in for 20 years. They brought in someone called John XIII, who they thought was an elderly man who'd be a safe pair of hands and not shake stuff up too much, and he came in and brought in the Second Vatican Council, which was this biggest thing in 400 years, massive drive towards the kind of liberal willing, got rid of that in Mass, blah, blah, blah, but unfortunately was only in for a few years, at which point Paul XI arrived, who suffered from something called Hamletismo, in other words, indecision, and seemed to push.

[Alastair Campbell]

Is that what they call it?

[Rory Stewart]

Hamletismo?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. Is that. Is that Italian? Is that a genuine word?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Is it a Vatican word or is a Italian word?

[Rory Stewart]

I think it's more Vatican. I think it's. It's something that really. He embodied this. Then we had John Paul ii, who was supposed to bring strength of character and who was very, very reliant on Cardinal Ratzinger for his theology and was on the more conservative side. And Ratzinger, of course, became Pope Benedict. And then Pope Francis came in. And again, this is another point which is the complete unpredictability of these people. And actually, I'm going to be very interested in this in a lot of these elections, because I think one of the Stories of elections is you have, as you keep saying, no idea what somebody's going to be like as a leader till they're actually there. You can't really tell whether they're sounding cautious before an election and then they come in and they're massively radical or they're sounding radical before the election. They come in and really do very.

[Alastair Campbell]

Much also, are these guys allowed to campaign? Can they sort of go round the conclave saying, look, I don't know if you've thought this about me, but actually I'm very this and I'm very that. Can they do that?

[Rory Stewart]

Robert Harris illustrates it very well, what's happening. So they're all locked up together. All the cardinals are locked up together. And it's very important for this election, no phones that. No phones, no Internet. The outside world, there's a very naughty thing happening in conclave, which is the man organizing the election, played by Ralph Fiennes, has a bit of contact with the outside world, but basically you're not supposed to have any contact with the outside world at all.

[Alastair Campbell]

And the Ralph Fiennes character in the film, is he the Irish guy who's the current sort of stand in for the Pope, or is he the State Secretary who's also one of the candidates? Can you be the organiser and a candidate?

[Rory Stewart]

Yes, absolutely. Which indeed, Ralph Fiennes was in that movie, movie, an organizer and a candidate. So Francis, for example, came in and people thought he was going to be quite, you know, conservative. He'd been quite an authoritarian provincial and came in and became quite a liberal pope. And one of the big controversies, the heart of this whole thing about what direction the Church goes in, is that a lot of conservatives, particularly American conservative Catholics, kind of J.D. vance, wing of the party, did not like the fact that he thought that you could bless them divorced couples. And they also didn't like his line when asked about sexuality, he said, who am I to judge? The basic answer there is, well, you are.

[Alastair Campbell]

You're the Pope. You're the Pope, you're the top man.

[Rory Stewart]

You're supposed to be judging. So. So in terms of.

[Alastair Campbell]

You mentioned Vance there. Do you think that Vance's visit to meet the Pope and be publicly the last person to see him, which does all that stuff about, you know, whatever you do, don't meet JD Vance, you could die the next day, added to Trump's AI photo. Do you think that will weaken any American influence? Because politicians do try to influence this event.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, they do, they do. And Americans are the big, big fundraisers big philanthropic fundraisers. So one of the problems has been that some of the figures associated with sex abuse have been big American fundraisers, and that's been a big problem in the past. Sex abuse has kicked in again also because two of the leading candidates. So Parolin, who's the kind of continuity.

[Alastair Campbell]

Candidate, he's the State Secretary or the foreign minister.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, he's the guy who did this very controversial deal with China, where China seems to be given a sort of veto over the appointment of bishops, which led to Cardinal Zen, who's the very famous Hong Kong bishop, who bore witness against the Chinese.

[Alastair Campbell]

And there's some guy from the Philippines who would be the first Asian Pope for a long, long time. He's another one who didn't criticize him enough.

[Rory Stewart]

Could be very. He was a big leader. But there's been a big article in the Times, Very, very credible female journalists now coming out and pointing to their role in all of this stuff. So they could be taken out at the last minute by this.

[Alastair Campbell]

When you say taken out, we're talking. We're not talking. We're not talking Mafia. No, no, no, no.

[Rory Stewart]

But you saw in the conclave that.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, you're suddenly up and then you're gone.

[Rory Stewart]

Then you're gone because you're up in the votes. Very, very. The voting system is almost identical to Conservative leadership election, the way in which it works.

[Alastair Campbell]

Liz Truss for Pope and also this.

[Rory Stewart]

Sort of weird thing that you see illustrating conclave, which was true for someone like me running leadership, which is you can get relatively few number of votes in an early stage, but as people drop out, you can suddenly jump lots of number of votes, and then you can drop again as people flip back and forward.

[Alastair Campbell]

I can't. I mean, I saw the film a long time ago. I can't remember. Does it go down in the end to a vote of two between two candidates?

[Rory Stewart]

Two candidates.

[Alastair Campbell]

It's not a single transferable vote thing. You actually go through. You just drop out and then you have the vote again.

[Rory Stewart]

Exactly. People drop.

[Alastair Campbell]

Exciting, isn't it?

[Rory Stewart]

So very, very exciting.

[Alastair Campbell]

And should be on telly, really.

[Rory Stewart]

The question, I guess, for the church is are they going to look? And the rumor is what they're going to be looking for is a slightly more conservative steady hand than Pope Francis, because Pope Francis, a bit like Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in Britain, is somebody who was almost more popular with people outside the hierarchy, the sort of general population. He was within the hierarchy. They thought he was maybe a bit loose. You know, we talk about Tony Blair Maybe as an experienced man he shouldn't have been creating headlines quite as much as he did off there. So we'll see. And there's some very interesting sort of marginal characters. There's a very interesting Ghanaian candidate. I've been reading a book recently by Robert Sara, who's from guinea, who is a formidable intellectual, very profound mystic, but also can be extraordinarily kind of conservative and intolerant about the modern world. And I think that would be sad. And he's almost 80.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'm going for Matteo Zuppi.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, right, an Italian Pope again.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think so, I think so. Although I want. The guy I want is a guy called Aveline. And the only. I don't know anything about him other than the fact that he's from Marseille. And I like Marseille.

[Rory Stewart]

You love Marseille.

[Alastair Campbell]

I like the football team and I like the place. Yeah. There is an American born guy in the running, this guy. Robert Francis Prevost or Prevost. The other thing I didn't realize is that one of the things that's being held against my man from Marseille is that he's not entirely fluent in Italian. This is a really stupid question, but is Italian the language of the Vatican?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, traditionally it was Latin.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

But actually increasingly they don't speak Latin to each other. They speak Italian.

[Alastair Campbell]

So they do speak Italian. Yeah. So that might be all the cardinals.

[Rory Stewart]

Sort of speak in Italian all the time. Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

The reason I like Zuppi and this is really trivializing and very important thing, his nickname is Don Mateo, who is a crime solving priest on Italian television.

[Rory Stewart]

Very good, very good.

[Alastair Campbell]

So I'm going for Zuppi and I think it's have a name ending in beginning with Zed is quite, quite dramatic.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank goodness you're not voting. You're doing it all on the base of their names.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, I do think it's important and what's extraordinary because when the white smoke comes out, which is how they announce, you know, we've got a Pope, a person that now today you and I have probably not heard of, is going to become overnight one of the best known, most recognized, most talked about, most written about people on the planet. It's a really interesting thing that where suddenly they become big figures and they could become big figures for good, which I think most people would argue Pope Francis did, or for bad.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I'm going to come now to a question for you from Ronnie, but just a sort of small note, the church in many ways pioneered democracy. I'm very struck by the fact that's.

[Alastair Campbell]

Not a small note. That's a really big note. We could do a whole episode on that.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, it just struck when I stayed in monasteries, it's almost always been the case that the abbot is elected by the other monks. And that's been true from the very, very earliest days. And, and it's really interesting because they'll spend 20 years looking at this person and then they'll even Trappist monsters don't even speak. They look at this person and choose them. Right, Ronnie, given Germany's history, it seems appropriate that the German spy agency has labeled the AFD an extremist group. Why have so many Americans leapt to the AFD's defense? So tell us about this as our German expert.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, the, so the German, it's not quite the equivalent of MI5, but it's a, it's a sort of the intelligence agency that, that part of its role is to ensure that the German constitution is upheld. And there's been this debate, there was a debate actually about whether they should have done this before the election and they felt they had to stay out of politics. So they didn't do it before that. But it was widely expected that they would identify the AFD as a far right extremist party. Interestingly, one of their MPs has stood down on the back of it. I think if this was Trumpian and it's the same as Le Pen. Le Pen, the judgment that she cannot stand seems to have been broadly accepted by the public. And likewise. So this is one of their representatives who said, no, if we're identified as right wing extremist, I can't be part of this. But I think what the danger with it at a time when you've got the new government coming in. Mertz, as we're speaking, has just lost a vote to become chancellor in the parliament. He was expecting to win on the first vote. So there is the danger that you have the Romanian effect, this sense that if you're taking people away from what the public have done, the public have voted for these people to have some say in their lives and you're then saying, no, they can't be part of this debate. We're going to see similar here. By the way we talked in our local elections yesterday, you've got a very interesting case in Doncaster where the mayor has been re elected whose Labour. But the council has gone overwhelmingly reform and it's, you know, how does that relationship now work out? So I think this debate, the government, Merz has been quite cautious about it. He said the Interior Ministry has to study the report, et cetera, et cetera. But they're gonna have to make big, big, big judgments because how can you identify a party as being right wing extremists and essentially anti constitutional, and yet at the same time, they've got this huge block sitting there in the parliament. So it's quite a big problem.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, a big, big problem. And of course set up after the Second World War deliberately to prevent the rise of another Nazi party. And so there's a very formal technocratic procedure where these agencies spies the Constitutional Court weighs all the evidence. And so they determined in the past that it was okay to refer to some AfD members as fascists. Now they've been labeled as extremists. But this is, this really matters because it's all about trying to protect the German constitution.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. And the other part of the question about people weighing In, I mean, two of the first people to weigh in were J.D. vance and Marco Rubio. If I were Mark Carney ahead of the G7, I think I would, which is coming shortly, I think I would sort of write to all the leaders and say I'm happy for this meeting to go ahead, but I really think it's about time that we stopped interfering in each other's domestic politics. Shut up about the 51st state. Shut up about the AfD. Tell your friend Muster. Shut up about riots in the uk. I mean, what the hell has it got to do with J.D. vance?

[Rory Stewart]

The Marco Rubio thing is also weird.

[Alastair Campbell]

Also, he doesn't believe it for a second.

[Rory Stewart]

So I was talking to a very senior American State Department diplomat who was responsible for all their policy in Africa. And she was explaining to me that in African elections, even as recently as for months ago, inconceivable that they would ever have backed one party over another, made any public statements as the American government. In fact, they actually went out of their way always to reach out with equal time to all the leading this, this thing of, I mean, the CIA, of course, in the 70s and 80s.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, they interfered the whole time, but covertly. But not the politicians.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean, it's really, really weird.

[Alastair Campbell]

But also Trump last week had, is it the Polish presidential election that's coming up and he had the opposition candidate in the White House last week saying what a great guy he was. So this is absolute blatant interference. And it's usually based on ignorance. It's usually based on them not understanding. So the fact is, would J.D. vance understand what the German constitution says, why this matters, why it's Rooted in law and in history.

[Rory Stewart]

I think what's so interesting about this particular Trump government is I think I'm right in the saying it's the American government which is the least European in terms of its experience of any American government that I can ever think of. Many of them in the past would have spent some time studying at European universities. They would have served in the military in Germany, they would have fought alongside Europeans. It's very, very interesting how little contact emotionally they have to. To Europe.

[Alastair Campbell]

The other thing about Vance, I thought this in relation to the Pope when, when the, when Trump did his, the, the AI picture of him as the Pope. Here's this guy who's like, you know, allegedly a kind of really big Catholic. Why is he saying nothing? I remember the MAGA crowd. You remember when the French, the Paris Olympic opening ceremony. There was that sketch about the Last Supper. Yeah, the MAGA crowd went nuts. Yeah, yeah, they went absolutely crazy about it. This is sacrilegious. Da, da, da. There's his boss, Trump, posing as the Pope. And Vance says, oh, that's all fine. Let me rant on about the AfD in Germany instead. Okay, Rory, quick break, then I want to ask you about King Charles heading to Canada.

[Rory Stewart]

Good. Look forward to it. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. We talk a lot on this podcast about pressure, political pressure, professional pressure. But there's also, of course, the quieter, more personal kind, the kind of stress that builds up slowly without you really noticing. For a long time, therapy was seen as something only for times of crisis. That view's changing, but the stigma still lingers. A recent UK survey, however, found that 37% of people feel uncomfortable even talking about their mental health. Thing is, stress left unchecked doesn't just affect you. It touches relationships, work, health, and therapy can help not just with trauma, but with developing perspective, boundaries, emotional resilience. Sometimes talking to someone outside your circle can make a real difference. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. We're all better. With help. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] RestPolitics that's better. H E L P.com RestPolitics.

[David McCloskey]

I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist.

[Gordon Carrera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.

[David McCloskey]

And together, we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, where we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies.

[Gordon Carrera]

This week, we're talking about one of the most significant stories of the 21st century, Edward Snowden and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American and British history.

[David McCloskey]

Snowden revealed that the American government was mass collecting data on its own citizens. And it was really the first time that Americans and so many others around the world understood the extent of the US Government's mass surveillance.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. It's a story I covered at the time. And it also really gets to where wider questions about what privacy means, how technology has changed our lives, and what the government and companies can do with data we might have thought was private.

[David McCloskey]

And we'll take you through the whole story, from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia.

[Gordon Carrera]

So to hear more, search for the rest is classified wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alastair Campbell]

Welcome back to the Rest of Politics. Question Time with me, Alastair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And with me, Rory Stewart.

[Alastair Campbell]

So, Patrick Kielty, I'm assuming, because I know, I do know, he listens. That may be Patrick Kielty, the presenter of the Late Late show in Dublin. What do you make of the timing of King Charles visit to Canada where he will open Parliament and deliver the speech from the throne? A monarch has not delivered a throne speech in Canada since 1977 or opened the Canadian Parliament since 1957. Now, I think this is your friend the king sending a very strong message to DJ Trump.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, yeah, to remind everybody, of course, King Charles is the head of state of Canada and Australia and New Zealand and the United Kingdom and other places, too. And he's in a very interesting position because the king is somebody that Trump seems to, to venerate. He seems to have, and Trump claims it's because of his mother, this very strong interest in the monarchy. And I think the Mooch has reflected on this a bit that because maybe because Trump sort of sees himself as a bit of a monarch, he's really interested in these kind of ancient institutions. And so the king is in a very interesting position because he seems to have this kind of credibility and leverage. It was used by Keir Starmer because, of course, King Charles is a constitutional monarch, so he has to respond to the elected government. Keir Starmer used a letter from King Charles to invite Trump on a state visit, which caused a lot of controversy. And Canadians felt very angry about this because this was happening at the same time as Trump was saying that Canada should be the 51st state. What the king essentially symbolizes is a statement of, excuse me, Donald Trump, Canada isn't a 51st state. I'm the head of state of Canada. And insofar as you claim to have this great reverence for me and my institution, you're trying to take part of country that I'm the head of state of. They also have a strong relationship, Mark Carney and the King, because they work very, very closely on climate finance and sustainable market initiative. Back when Mark Carney was working the bank of England, they had a huge interest in, we talked about Tony Blair and Net Zero. What the King and Mark Carney were really focused on is how you get the corporate sector and the trillions of finance behind shift to renewable biodiversity. And of course, Mark Carney visited the King when he was over. So I think it's something which is very deliberate and it's an interesting question of the ways in which British soft power could continue to operate this trouble.

[Alastair Campbell]

Also because, I mean, look, Mark Carney's had huge attention around the world because of the nature of his rise, becoming Prime Minister, winning the election. But it also means that here we are today, we're speaking on the day that the new German government is taking office. Now, it might be on the news a bit, but it won't be kind of wall to wall across the news channels. But the fact of King Charles going to open the Canadian Parliament means that Mark Carney's first King's speech is going to get way more global attention than it otherwise would. And you can bet your bottom dollar it's going to be shown live on all the American channels, which of course Trump will be hopping between. I think it's a great move. And you know, as you say, when the King does something on behalf of the UK government, whether it was taking part in the VA Day things or whatever, or as you say, opening the Parliament, he will not have done this without probably having had it suggested by Mark Carney and would probably wanted to have checked with the UK government as well. I don't know how these, this specifically works, but. So that means he has been confronted with the choice and he's decided, yep, I'm going to do that. Good for him.

[Rory Stewart]

I say question for you on the UK and Europe, Gaishvar from Scotland. What effect would Britain returning to the European single market have on the British farming sector? Would it benefit or harm agricultural interests in the uk?

[Alastair Campbell]

Positive and benefit. And one of the things I said yesterday that, that I'm, I was worried that the reaction to the local elections will be to kind of be a bit more reformy in some areas. I am really more and more of the view that on the Brexit issues, the government has to be less timid, more ambitious. Got this big meeting on May 19, Keir Starmer hosting European Union heads of government. I really think something really big has got to come out of that in terms of signaling direction. It won't be this, but I think there are so many different areas where the government could be coming to an arrangement with the Europeans that would get us in a better place. But it's a big, big, big political choice. And, you know, I do think we've just been too timid about this because we don't, we keep saying we don't want to revisit the arguments of 2016. It's almost a decade ago now, but I think it's become settled. Even amongst Brexiteers, I meet loads of them that, you know, well, regardless of what I thought at the time, it's not really gone as planned. So that gives the government an opportunity.

[Rory Stewart]

Small footnote on farmers. The small farmers in particular were a real beneficiary of the Common Agricultural Policy because France and many of the Mediterranean members of the European Union really believe in farmers, really believe in their role in culture, their role in communities, their role in landscape. And so they had these single farm payments designed basically to keep small farms alive. And in Scotland and Wales, essentially these structures remained in place. But England under both the Conservatives and Labour went really weirdly ideological and basically against small farmers. Put all the emphasis either on biodiversity and rewilding from the environmental side or on production and scale big farms on the other side. And in my former constituency, Cumbria, you can see so quickly that we're going to be losing in some cases hundreds of years worth of landscape and things we've preserved in some cases almost since the Norman Conquest, falling very, very quickly away. And within 10, 15 years, people will go into the landscapes of places like the Lake District and there won't be farms there anymore. And we will miss them terribly. And it's nowhere in our debate.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now we've got a question here. Rather shameless self plugging by one of our colleagues in the podcast world, Mr. Al Murray. Oh yes, their podcast on the Second World War. We have ways. Hi, chaps. We interviewed Zakir Starmer on the podcast yesterday. Episode is out today if anyone wants to listen after our historical chat. I think by that he means they talked about history as opposed to. It was a historic conversation in itself. Starmer mentioned the importance of rearmament for UK economic growth, not just strengthening NATO. Where should the government focus investment in terms of defence land Forces, naval strength, emerging warfare like drone technologies. We actually talked about to Alex Younger about that. He was talking about the, you know, in the Ukrainian context, the defense manufacturing industry is changing so fast. So there you go. Help Al plug his podcast. He's obviously looking on the lookout for new listeners.

[Rory Stewart]

Firstly, both Al Murray's podcast and our podcast are coming out on victory in Europe 80th anniversary. And many of you who live in London, for example, will have seen Lancaster bombers flying over on the bank holiday Monday. And I'm, you know, really struck by this. I've been doing a little bit for the amazing Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which helps preserve the graves, including my father's brother, my uncle's grave in Sicily, and the graves that I. I saw in Iraq and elsewhere. And it's also interesting in the family because my sister's been trying to get going on V Day celebrations in our town in Krief and has been sending my mother stuff from the Daily Mail about memories of people who remember V E Day. And my mother's like, well, don't be ridiculous. Why didn't she talk to me? I was 10 years old when VE Day happened. I'm quite happy to talk to you about that. On this question, we should do a bigger thing on this. Technology is changing very fast. And what's happening on the battlefield in Ukraine is right at the heart of this. Particularly cheap drones. Electronic warfare raises huge questions about these expensive platforms. You know, $150 million, F35 planes, aircraft carriers, all of them now under threat from drones that cost a few thousand dollars. And there's a very, very complicated story about how all these things are coordinated in the information space, how an iPhone links up to what you get from a plane and how this all works, works. So we should do this properly. But Al Mar is completely right to ask it. And if one was really brave about drones, AI, cyber technology, a huge amount of legacy weapon systems would become obsolete. But you still ultimately need to fire missiles and drop large amounts of munition.

[Alastair Campbell]

On people and have ships and have an army, have a big army. I think it would be interesting. Maybe we should dig this up for next week and talk about it is. I know the technologies are changing, but if we just look at the sheer numbers and how they have changed in what were then the major powers and what are now the major powers. And I was looking at the stats the other day for the growth of the Chinese military. It is absolutely phenomenal. Whereas we can now fit the entirety of our army into one of our bigger football Stadiums. Anyway, thanks for that, Al. And sticking on security issues, Mr. Dominic Thorrington, I've just finished listening to the excellent interview you did with Sir Alex Younger. That's the head. Former head of MI6 on leading. At the end of the episode, Rory mentioned that he'd met Sir Alex in four different positions at sis. I'm not for one minute suggesting that Rory's let slip any past work at sis. After maintaining for years that he's never been a spook, Dominic had only you listening closely. So could Rory please discuss just a little how he managed to meet the future C whilst in these different roles? Well, I met him.

[Rory Stewart]

You met him quite a few times. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I mean, I met him as a minister, I met him as a Member of Parliament. I met him.

[Alastair Campbell]

I met him in Afghanistan.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, I met him as somebody running a charity in Afghanistan. Yeah. But really encourage people to listen to it and also encourage people to listen, if we haven't plugged enough. Atul Gawande, who I thought was incredibly wonderful, who's this extraordinary, extraordinary, impressive doctor who I'd like to see almost given a Nobel Prize, who talked both about what's happening in the world of international development, infectious diseases, but also about advanced medical technology. So that's me avoiding the question. Right, over to you. Question on towns and cities. Willbarrow. Is the political divide between the inner city metropolitan areas and the rest of the country now bigger than ever? How big a problem is that for our national politics? Quick explainer, Alistair, as we go into the question, question. Essentially, parties like the Conservative Party don't have any votes in inner city metropolitan areas anymore. They're Labour heartlands. You know, London's a classic example of this. Do you feel there's a big divide and is it a big problem for our national politics?

[Alastair Campbell]

I remember after the Brexit referendum, somebody said that this referendum was won and lost in towns that few of us have ever heard of because they don't have football league football clubs. And I was, over the weekend, I was in Gainsborough, I was in a couple of smallish towns in Lincolnshire. Lincolnshire, which has always been pretty Brexit y, but it's gone very reform. And I think there is this sense of the divide. And interestingly, in the Australian elections, one of the many, many criticisms that's being made against Dutton, the leader of the Conservatives there, who's just lost, is that he was open in saying that I'm going after. He called the forgotten people in the suburbs. Now, obviously, Australia is a vast country, whereas, you know, we're pretty crowded. But I think there is a feeling in. I regularly hear people, you know, in fact this happened. I went to the Burnley Player of the Year awards the other day and there's quite a few. The fans were there and I was chatting away to some of them. Some of them, they, they absolutely have this belief that London has everything. And then a sort of dial down version of that is Manchester has everything, leads us everything. And I think there is, if you look at the people who Labour now look to, used to be sort of traditional working class voters. I mean the classic Labour voter now is the sort of professional graduate. I saw some data on this the other day that if you have no education beyond 16, you are four times more likely to vote reform than if you are educated beyond A levels. And obviously you've got uneducated people in cities and you've got lots of educated people in towns. But I think that sense of cities feeling vibrant, dynamic about the future and a lot of towns feeling pretty run down is a problem. Is a problem. And I think the New Towns Fund, although it's got, I think a lot going for it, I just give you a very, very small example. I had a phone call last week for Keithley Cougars at rugby league club in Keighley where I come from and they'd been promised funding over the, under the New Towns Fund and suddenly they see the council trying to undo it. And I think that's just because you combine resources, really tight control on resources and people feeling that in the smaller towns maybe they don't have to worry so much because the backlash won't be that great. That is another message of these local elections.

[Rory Stewart]

You know, we were talking in the last podcast about what the difference might be between Britain, Australia and Canada, despite all the similarities. And it strikes me that the biggest difference is that those are federal systems where you have these very, very strong local regional governments. You know, we interviewed Peter Malinowskis for example, on leading, who's doing very different things in South Australia to elsewhere. And if you have a more devolved federal system, inevitably you're going to get more investment and infrastructure prioritizing those places. Instead of what we have in Britain, which is the treasury gets its numbers out, does its calculations and every pound invested in London always looks better on their spreadsheets because they get a better return for it. They're thinking short term, not long term. So I think if we're really going to fix this over the longer term and get moderate center ground politics back, we need to have Something more like a federal system where we properly devolving down.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, if you. I was in Manchester, as I say, over the weekend, and, you know, Manchester just feels kind of buzzy. And it's always been a buzzy place and it's always been one of our bigger, better cities, but it feels very, very different. Now, I'm not saying that's all down to Andy Burnham, but I do think that sense of Manchester having its own identity through the football clubs, through an elected mayor that people know inside Manchester and outside Manchester, I honestly do believe this. And it's got to be more devolution, but with the power and with the financing and not having screaming, have dabs every time that, for example, Andy Burnham recently said, we've got to start calling out the disaster of Brexit. Siddiq said the same. Eleonid Morgan in Wales saying that, you know, she's going to campaign against some of the welfare changes. Now, I know that Peter Karl, if he's listening, will say, oh, he's asked to go and he's going on his. You know, you say it would have happened if your day. It exactly would have happened in your day that you didn't it call got a grip of all this. But if we believe in devolution, we've got to genuinely, genuinely believe it. Now, how about this as a final question, Rory from Nick Longson. You can always judge a person's character by their musical tastes. What are you into? Can you expose any shockers or speculate on the taste of any world leaders? Well, of course we know about Albanese because he told us about.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, he pointed out he missed K Pop entirely.

[Alastair Campbell]

He did, he did. But he's a big rock. He's a. He's a rock music guy. Yeah, he's really into rock music. Tony's into. Tony Blazer was into rock music.

[Rory Stewart]

Had a band, didn't he? At university.

[Alastair Campbell]

He was in the Ugly Rumours. Yeah, yeah. So come on. I've never really got to the bottom of your lack of musical taste.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, okay, so here's the shocker. I went to a Restor's History show, live show at the Albert hall, where they were playing Tchaikovsky, Pedoltry, we call it. And I suddenly realized that some of Tchaikovsky is actually my vision of hell. I have never felt so bored, appalled and sort of revolted in my life.

[Alastair Campbell]

That's the podcast. What about the music?

[Rory Stewart]

No, it's not the podcast. Tchaikovsky, the composer. Sometimes I sit there listening to some of his ballet music and I actually feel my life Going away from me. I remember at the age of 50, a more painful experience. Nutcracker. More painful experience listening to that and also one of his violin concertos. I actually. I feel more unhappy listening to Tchaikovsky's music than almost anything on earth. So there's my little revelation. Go on, tell us about something you.

[Alastair Campbell]

Like, though, that's something you don't like.

[Rory Stewart]

I completely love church music. I love Mozart. I love Bach. Deeply, deeply. I can stretch as far as Beethoven. I can get about as far as Schubert.

[Alastair Campbell]

Okay.

[Rory Stewart]

By the time you get it.

[Alastair Campbell]

And now let's come into the modern age.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, by the time I was your favorite.

[Alastair Campbell]

What's your favorite?

[Rory Stewart]

What's your favorite? I've got to Tchaikovsky. I've given up. Rolling Stones. I like Rolling Stones.

[Alastair Campbell]

What's your favorite Rolling Stones song? You're not allowed to say Satisfaction.

[Rory Stewart]

No, what I like. What's that one about? That's also the one about. Okay, what's the one about? It's the devil speaking.

[Alastair Campbell]

This is all staying in. This is like trouble. This is like troubled. He was asked about which his favorite people. Bit of the Bible.

[Rory Stewart]

Anyway, listen, the reality is. The reality. The reality is that I don't really listen to anything except classic classical music before about 1840, right? Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Do you know what? Do you want to know what I listen to? All the way from through the. Manchester, through the Peak District, abba, which is beautiful. Well, ABBA was part of it because I was. I was channel hopping between heart, greatest hits, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. You can do it by the decade.

[Rory Stewart]

So heart is your thing? Heart?

[Alastair Campbell]

No, not hard. Sometimes it's the other channels.

[Rory Stewart]

But what's the other ones you like then? If there's radio channels you see on.

[Alastair Campbell]

When you get magic, I sometimes do the radio one to try and sort of stay in a bit with what's happening.

[Rory Stewart]

But Radio 1's a bit trendy for you, is it? It's basically a little bit, yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'm. The other one I listen is Magic Soul. Magic Soul. And you get. I mean, I'm really into Motown.

[Rory Stewart]

Is it 6 Music? Do you do that?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, a little bit, but.

[Rory Stewart]

But, you know, my devil song the producers just pointed out is called Sympathy.

[Alastair Campbell]

Sympathy for the Devil.

[Rory Stewart]

Sympathy for the Devil, Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

I just think it's sad because it's. I mean, I find music. I mean, I like some classical music. I'm like you. I mean, Fiona loves going to ballet and opera and all that stuff. And sometimes I like it, but sometimes I don't. But I could listen to A lot of modern pop music all day long.

[Rory Stewart]

I could listen to Handel all day long.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, I love, I love, I like church music.

[Rory Stewart]

I love tenor voices, I love Gregorian plainsong, all that stuff.

[Alastair Campbell]

Philip Gould, he, when he was dying, listened to Gregorian chanting quite a lot.

[Rory Stewart]

That's good. Hey, I had a final, final story in dying. One of my most grand aristocratic friends, her grandfather, when he was dying, he rigged up his bed with his pillow behind him and he attached a set of reins like the sort you use to ride a horse, to the, to the four poster bed at the other end. And his butler read him from his hunting diaries while he held on to his reins till he died.

[Alastair Campbell]

What's that gotta do with music?

[Rory Stewart]

It's just a story about Philip Gould and dying.

[Alastair Campbell]

Oh, I see, there's a dying story. Okay, okay, well, listen, I'm sticking with music because I'm leaving from here to go to Pentonville prison to play my bagpipes to the prisoners. If they haven't suffered enough, they're gonna have me explain to how bipes work.

[Rory Stewart]

Final story from the same man.

[Alastair Campbell]

You should love that we're taking music into our prisons.

[Rory Stewart]

It's really cool that you're taking music in prison. I'm really pleased and also paid tribute to the amazing work that's done with opera in presence. Yeah, thank goodness there's not much ballet in presence going on, otherwise I wouldn't go and watch it. Listen, final anecdote to really annoy you in terms of this guy and his horse. So he, during the Second World War, he, he was, he was. Who was this guy fox hunting? I, I don't want to dish him anymore, but he's fox hunting and he's, he's got his full, he's got his full hunting pinks on and he's charging with his horse and his hounds and things.

[Alastair Campbell]

He's a real hunt as opposed to chasing a fox.

[Rory Stewart]

And the fox gets into a, a football pitch where some young men are playing football. That was on 1943. And the fox manages to get out the other end. And so the hunter lost the fox. And the Lord leans down from his hunter and looks at these young men and he says, what the bloody hell do you think you're doing? Don't you realize there's a war on?

[Alastair Campbell]

You got named Lazry. You can't tell stories about that, about your, your fellow toffs. Well, there you go. We've covered a lot of ground today, haven't we?

[Rory Stewart]

We have, thank you very much.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'm still determined to educate you in modern music.

[Rory Stewart]

Good luck.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'll take you to Abbott Voyage.

[Rory Stewart]

Good luck.

[Alastair Campbell]

Thank you. See you soon.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye. Bye.

[David McCloskey]

I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist.

[Gordon Carrera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.

[David McCloskey]

And together we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, where we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies.

[Gordon Carrera]

This week we're talking about about one of the most significant stories of the 21st century, Edward Snowden, and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American and British history.

[David McCloskey]

Snowden revealed that the American government was mass collecting data on its own citizens. And it was really the first time that Americans and so many others around the world understood the extent of the US Government's mass surveillance.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. It's a story I covered at the time. And it also really gets to wider questions about what privacy means, how technology has changed our lives, and what the government and companies can do with data we might have thought was private.

[David McCloskey]

And we'll take you through the whole story, from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia.

[Gordon Carrera]

So to hear more, search for the Rest Is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts.