431. Question Tine: Netanyahu’s Survival, Deadly Clashes in Syria, and Japan’s Deep State

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics, Episode 431

Title: Question Time: Netanyahu’s Survival, Deadly Clashes in Syria, and Japan’s Deep State
Hosts: Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart
Release Date: July 23, 2025

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1. Deadly Clashes in Syria

Overview:
The episode opens with a detailed analysis of the escalating tensions in southern Syria, particularly around the city of Suwayda. Alastair Campbell addresses inquiries from listeners about the recent conflicts between the Druze and Bedouin communities, highlighting the severe humanitarian and geopolitical implications.

Key Points:

• Conflict Dynamics:
  Rory Stewart provides a comprehensive breakdown of the events leading to the clashes, emphasizing the underlying ethnic and sectarian divisions. The violent interactions began with Bedouin attacks on Druze truck drivers, escalating to the execution of Syrian soldiers by the Druze and subsequent military retaliation by the Syrian army.

• External Involvement:
  The role of Israel is scrutinized, with Campbell citing Alex Crawford’s courageous reporting from the frontlines. Campbell references a statement by a former Israeli ambassador, Alon Pincas, who criticizes Prime Minister Netanyahu's motives, suggesting that the military actions are aimed at bolstering Netanyahu's image amid corruption trials rather than genuine national security concerns (03:36).

• Humanitarian Impact:
  The conflict has resulted in significant civilian casualties, including children, leading to international condemnation. Rory Stewart notes that Israel's strategic bombing, including targeting Damascus’s MOD building, indicates a severe misalignment with regional stability efforts (10:29).

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (03:36):
  "This is all about trying to prevent the success a unified Syria coming together."

• Rory Stewart (10:20):
  "The more you get the sense that unless America really calls this out, Netanyahu thinks he can do what the hell he wants."

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2. Israel’s Political Maneuvering and Netanyahu’s Position

Overview:
The discussion shifts to Israel's internal politics, focusing on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's strategies to maintain power amidst military actions and corruption charges.

Key Points:

• Netanyahu’s Survival Strategy:
  Campbell posits that Netanyahu may leverage recent military successes to galvanize public support, potentially announcing a ceasefire in Gaza to secure electoral victory. Rory Stewart adds that Netanyahu's ability to navigate through crises underscores his political resilience, despite widespread criticism and potential electoral backlash (12:51).

• International Relations:
  Rory Stewart expresses concern over the fracturing of regional alliances, as Israel's actions undermine broader Middle Eastern stability initiatives, previously supported by nations like the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.

Notable Quotes:

• Rory Stewart (11:04):
  "There’s a pretty good chance that he could re-emerge as the prime Minister for the next few years, maybe with a coalition that doesn't include Smotrich and Ben Gvir."

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3. Japan’s Political Landscape and Rise of Populism

Overview:
Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart delve into Japan's recent upper house elections, marking a significant shift in the traditionally dominant Liberal Democratic Party (LDP).

Key Points:

• Election Results:
  The LDP failed to secure a majority in both houses of Parliament, a first in Japan's political history. Instead, right-wing populist parties like "Japan First" and the "San Zaito Party" made substantial gains, appealing primarily to younger voters.

• Drivers of Populism:
  The rise is attributed to concerns over stagnant economic growth, housing affordability, low pay rises, and immigration. Interestingly, despite Japan's minimal reliance on immigration (with foreign residents constituting just over 3% of the population), anti-immigration sentiment has surged, mirroring trends seen in other global populist movements.

• Implications for International Order:
  Stewart underscores the importance of Japan maintaining its centrist stance to support a rules-based international order, crucial for global stability against powers like the US and China. A shift towards populism could disrupt critical alliances and cooperation on issues like defense and technological governance (35:09).

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (33:06):
  "The Japanese case is extraordinary because Japan is an outlier in so many ways... It isn’t a country that was particularly vulnerable to populism in elections."

• Rory Stewart (36:15):
  "Japan is still the third largest economy in the world. Any hope of creating a world which isn't dominated by an unstable Trump or an authoritarian China involves Britain and the EU reaching out above all to places like Japan."

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4. The Afghan Super Injunction Data Leak

Overview:
A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the Afghan Super Injunction incident, where a data leak exposed sensitive information about Afghans who worked with British forces during the evacuation from Kabul.

Key Points:

• Nature of the Leak:
  Campbell explains that a top-secret list was inadvertently left exposed, potentially allowing the Taliban to identify and target those who collaborated with British forces. This breach led to the British government's controversial decision to impose a super injunction, preventing media from reporting on the matter to protect the individuals involved.

• Government Response and Fallout:
  The super injunction aimed to mitigate the risk of retribution against the evacuated Afghans. However, the leak fueled public and political criticism, highlighting issues of government transparency and accountability. Campbell discusses Defense Secretary John Healey's efforts to address the breach and the subsequent inquiries by the Intelligence and Defense Select Committees (38:27).

• Humanitarian and Security Concerns:
  Stewart emphasizes the complex balance between safeguarding individuals and maintaining ethical refugee policies. The leak has strained Britain's soft power and raised questions about the efficacy and morality of the evacuation process.

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (41:25):
  "MPs shouldn't raise it in Parliament. So you're talking about a level of secrecy that is really, really, really high."

• Rory Stewart (44:57):
  "It's still possible to support people in Afghanistan. It's still possible to do really good development work there... The British government is dealing with this too."

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5. Cultural Commentary: The Superman Film and Societal Values

Overview:
Breaking away from geopolitics, the hosts discuss the newly released Superman film, analyzing its underlying messages and reflection of contemporary societal issues.

Key Points:

• Film Analysis:
  Rory Stewart explores how the Superman film portrays the hero struggling against a society indifferent to catastrophic threats, mirroring current political and social disengagement. The antagonist, Lex Luthor, embodies the insecurities and technological anxieties prevalent in modern discourse.

• Political Undertones:
  Campbell references an Economist editorial highlighting the film's message about resistance to power abuse, aligning it with timeless political lessons. The film's depiction of Superman as an immigrant also sparked backlash from certain political groups, labeling the movie as "woke."

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (28:45):
  "The movie illuminates what has always been Superman's most important power—a character sound enough to resist the temptation to abuse his other powers. That is a political lesson for any era."

• Rory Stewart (27:59):
  "Superheroes are a really, really interesting example of this because on the one hand they're sort of role models, but on the other hand they're not very good role models because they are by definition not really human."

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6. Addressing the Far-Right Influence on Young Men

Overview:
The hosts pivot to a pressing social issue: the increasing attraction of young men towards far-right ideologies and authoritarianism.

Key Points:

• Lost Boys Task Force:
  Alastair Campbell discusses his involvement in the "Lost Boys Task Force," an initiative aimed at providing young men, especially those in poverty, with trusted adults to mentor and guide them. The goal is to offer support systems that can deter vulnerable youth from falling prey to extremist influences.

• Personal Reflections:
  Rory Stewart shares personal insights from his experience as a parent, emphasizing the importance of male role models in combatting the exposure of young boys to violent and hyper-aggressive media content. He highlights the need for authenticity and resilience in young men to foster a healthier societal outlook.

• Implementation Challenges:
  Campbell underscores the necessity of government support and funding for training trusted adults, advocating for a national tracking system to ensure young people have access to these mentorship opportunities.

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (23:16):
  "There are around about 630,000 young people in England who do not have access to what is called a trusted adult."

• Rory Stewart (24:19):
  "If we could imitate what I'm seeing with the best men and getting, and part of it is also unfortunately getting more men teaching in primary schools, we could make a significant impact."

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7. Handling Media Pressure and Authentic Communication

Overview:
In the latter part of the episode, Campbell and Stewart offer advice on managing the pressures of public scrutiny and media interaction, drawing from personal anecdotes and professional experiences.

Key Points:

• Pressure vs. Stress:
  The hosts differentiate between healthy pressure, which can enhance performance, and detrimental stress, which can impair focus and well-being. They emphasize the importance of recognizing this distinction to maintain mental resilience.

• Authenticity in Communication:
  Rory Stewart advocates for staying true to oneself when interacting with the media, avoiding the temptation to adopt inauthentic personas. This approach fosters genuine connections and reduces the adverse effects of public pressure.

• Practical Tips:

  • Avoid Media Overconsumption:
    Both hosts suggest limiting exposure to media critiques and social media comments to prevent unnecessary stress.

  • Develop Support Systems:
    Building relationships with trusted individuals who can offer guidance and support is crucial for navigating high-pressure environments.

Notable Quotes:

• Alastair Campbell (49:30):
  "Understand the difference between pressure and stress."

• Rory Stewart (50:23):
  "Be authentic to a sense of yourself and not feeling that you have to sort of pretend that you're something that you're not."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart provide an in-depth exploration of significant geopolitical developments in Syria and Japan, critique the political maneuvers of Israel's Netanyahu, and address critical social issues related to youth and media pressure. Their multifaceted discussion underscores the complexities of modern politics and the intertwining of international relations with domestic social dynamics.

Listeners seeking a nuanced understanding of current political affairs and societal challenges will find this episode both informative and engaging.

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Note: Timestamps in brackets (e.g., [03:36]) refer to the specific points in the transcript where the quoted statements occur.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome to the Rest of the Politics Question time with me, Alistair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And with me Rory Stewart. And here we are. Alastair first one, Andy Kidd is a member from Bristol. Please can we have an update on what's currently going on in Syria? There seems to have been some tension brewing there again, but not widely reported. A shared post on LinkedIn of all places alerted me to it. Janice Member, Abington what's going on in Syria? Was the optimism about the new regime misplaced? What is Israel hope to achieve by its attacks? I mean, let's start on this fact about it not being widely reported and being picked up on LinkedIn. I mean, is this a general trend? I mean, I've worried in the past about the fact that as the revenue streams of newspapers and televisions collapses, they have less and less money to pay for foreign correspondence. And they're more and more driven by algorithms which reward reporting on, I don't know, whatever, the Kardashians, as opposed to Syria. And that tends to mean that some really big issues get neglected. And I know one of them that you wanted to raise. We got Quite a lot of questions on was Japan as another example.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. I mean, just first of all, in answer to Andy's question, big shout out here to Alex Crawford, the war correspondent, Sky News. She's done some amazing stuff in Syria this week, really out there where the fighting's going on between the Druze and the Bedouins and the Syrian security forces as well. I mean, really, really has been unbelievably courageous. And I saw some very good stuff on the BBC as well. So I don't. I don't think that's fair. I. I don't know what media you consume, Andy, but I actually think that Syria has been a huge story this week, quite rightly. And Janice's question about whether the optimism about the new regime was, was misplaced. And what does Israel hope to achieve by its attacks? Well, if you listen to President Erdogan, who I listened to on TRT last night, he was absolutely scathing about the Israelis and said, this is all about trying to prevent the success a unified Syria coming together. The Israelis would say that they were. Netanyahu said that he was protecting what he called the Druze brethren, but what do you make of it, Rory?

[Rory Stewart]

Shout out also to Charles Lister, who's done some wonderful reporting on this, who's a real Syria expert, but very, very quick explainer in response to those questions. What's going on in Syria over the last 10 days in the south of Syria around a big city called Suwayda, which is dominated by the Druze. And the Druze just remind people, are a minority religious sect. Esoteric, quite mysterious, but related to Islam, it began, it seems, with somebody from a Sunni Bedouin tribe. So Bedouin obviously being traditionally nomadic Arabic communities, seizing a Druze truck and essentially robbing the truck and beating up the truck driver. That was then followed by some Bedouin being abducted by the Druze and the beginning of fighting between the Bedouin and Druze communities.

[Alistair Campbell]

And.

[Rory Stewart]

And the reason why this was important is that Syria is struggling to reunify the Druze in the south. People will also remember the fights with the Alawites. The Kurds control a lot of northeast Syria and the challenge for the central government is how do you bring together a country which has all these different ethnic and sectarian divisions? So Syrian government claims that they had been speaking to Israel and the US about this, and they had thought, because Al Sharra had been at a meeting where he'd actually, in Azerbaijan, sat down with the Israeli government and thought that he'd got agreement from the Israeli government, that it was important for the Syrian state to have control over the country. Otherwise, the whole thing fragments. So Syrian military deployed. The Druze, executed nine Syrian soldiers on the roadside, kidnapped, I think, 10 others, and then executed them. Israeli bombs started landing around Suaida. The Syrian army advanced, they took Sueda. They basically recaptured that part of Syria. It was very brutal. There were clearly atrocities committed by the Druze, but also atrocities committed by the Syrian army. There's a big debate about what happened in a hospital which passed hands between the Druze and the Syrian army, in which people were killed. Almost certainly the final atrocities were probably committed by the Druze because they were the last people to control the hospital before that film was taken. But there's no doubt that there was horrible stuff going on on both sides, at which point Israel then bombed Damascus. So you'll remember it because we drove past that building when we were together in Damascus. This is bang in the center of Damascus. It's like, for British listeners, it would be like bombing the MOD main building on Whitehall, right next the House of Parliament. So civil servants are in there going to work. Three rockets go straight through it. Syrian army then withdraws. And we're now in a situation where the Druze have retaken control of the south of Syria around Suaida. The Syrian army has completely withdrawn. The Syrian government has basically had to give up on that big spillover effect, which is that they were in the middle of negotiations with the Kurds in northeast Syria, who control almost everything east of the Euphrates. The Kurds were increasingly drawing away from the Syrian government and have now made it clear that they have no interest whatsoever in cooperating with reintegrating into the Syrian state. The American government is very angry with Israel because, remember, you remember very well. But listeners remember President Trump made this radical move to recognize Al Shara, this man with this Al Qaeda past. And the US was really hoping that Syria was going to be part of its initiative in the Middle east and all the other Gulf countries, from the UAE through to Saudi and Qatar, very much getting in behind Al Shara. Also very critical of Israel. You know, Israel that was trying to rebrand itself in the last few weeks as a source of stability in the Middle East. They now think, wait a sec, what on earth are you doing? You're basically guaranteeing that Syria is going to be a failed state, and that's where we are.

[Alistair Campbell]

It's very hard to know what Israel's motivations are in a lot of this. But just to give you one sense of some of the former ambassador. I don't know this guy. So maybe, maybe he's a well known critic of Netanyahu. I just don't know. But he was an Israeli ambassador. He was the Consul General in New York. I call Alon Pincas. And he said this, this is on Al Jazeera. Of course it's nice to pretend we're helping our friends the Druze in the same way as we never helped our other friends, the Kurds. But he goes on to suggest that this is all about boosting Netanyahu's image as a wartime leader, pushing back his corruption trial, which has happened, and reinforcing the delusion that Israel has somehow managed to reshape the Middle east and through military force alone. Lastly, he doesn't want to see a unified Syria, which is the point that Erdogan was making as well. So there is cynicism amongst some. Netanyahu's out very, very clearly saying that this is about protecting the Druze and so forth. But I think what really I found fascinating was in, I watched Call Me Sad, Rory. I watched the Oval Office encounter between Donald Trump and the Crown Prince of Bahrain. And by the way, our theory that we talked about in the J.D. vance series, that he basically wants to be the monarch, he introduced the Crown Prince by saying he's the Prime Minister and the Crown prince. I wonder which of those titles would I prefer if it was to be, I think I'd prefer the Crown Prince. And they were to talk about how great it was to think that you could get power just by being the son of, of the king. So anyway, when he was talking about this, he handed it straight over to Rubio. And Rubio, basically, Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, was basically saying this was a misunderstanding, there's been a misunderstanding, and we're going to just try and sort this out as quickly as we can. It does appear for now to have been stable, relatively stabilized. But what you saw, if you were watching Alex Crawford on Sky News, was that it's very, very tense and very, very volatile. I also want to say, Roy, to those people. We had so many, so many of them, including Joey Barton. Do you know who Joey Barton is, Rory?

[Rory Stewart]

No. You keep quoting Joey Barton, so I.

[Alistair Campbell]

Imagine I don't keep quoting him. He's a former footballer who has, shall we say, a certain reputation. But he was posting pictures of you and me and Al Shara with all this stuff going on, saying, you know, hey, look what your mate is up to now. I'd just like to point out to Our listeners and viewers that if we were to do an interview with Donald Trump, which we would love to do, it does not mean he's our mate. We will interview people who are in politics, who are interesting. So there you go. Joey, that one was just for you. Just on Israel, Rory, I think we've got to talk about Israel because we talked about it a lot in the last couple of weeks. But, you know, briefly, the things have got worse. I mean, Rory, when you were in the military, Answer me this question. When you were in the military, if you were told to fire a warning shot, where would you fire that shot?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, but the point about the warning shot is that it shouldn't hurt anybody. It's a warning shot, right?

[Alistair Campbell]

So where would you fire it? Where would you point your gun?

[Rory Stewart]

You pointed in the air yesterday.

[Alistair Campbell]

Dozens of people, including children, were killed queuing for food and medicine and so forth. And they said that they fired warning shots. Well, then what I heard David Lammy being interviewed today, because he did a statement in the Commons yesterday. There was this statement of 27, 28 countries that have come together to condemn what's going on. Repeat everything about end the hostages out, get a ceasefire, end the war, et cetera. The rhetoric is ramping up, but the more and more that it does, the more you get the sense that unless America really calls this out, Netanyahu thinks he can do what the hell he wants.

[Rory Stewart]

Two quick things there. One is that America, I think, is genuinely angry. I think Marco Rubio in particular, was furious about what Israel did in Damascus. And actually, even for defenders of Netanyahu, this has been a very strange moment, trying to justify what on earth they think they're doing. And it's had a real effect on the region, because all this story about how the future for the region is peace, stability, economic integration, which you would have heard a bit of off the back of the Bahrain Trump meeting that you watched, that is fracturing now because a lot of the Arab countries the beginning to think that if Israel is essentially attacking and fragmenting Syria, then all their plans for trying to create this more harmonious, unified Middle east are being undermined. Second thing, I think it's very likely that Netanyahu will move to an election soon and may well win it. So I think there's a good scenario that he goes to the Israeli public saying, I've had this great success in Lebanon against Hezbollah, have had this great success in Iran against the nuclear weapons program, and I'm going to announce a ceasefire, 60 days ceasefire in Gaza, some hostages get returned and I go to an election. And so there's a pretty good chance that he could re emerge as the prime Minister for the next few years, maybe with a coalition that doesn't include Smotrich and Ben gvir. And that again is really serious because any attempt for Israel to come to terms with what's happened in Gaza, any attempt for Israel to try to rebuild relationships with the region, any hope of Israel beginning to think about futures for Palestinians is not possible so long as Netanyahu is there. And there's a serious chance he could come back in again for longer.

[Alistair Campbell]

It just shows you how volatile politics is and also how much of a survivor he is. I'm not convinced he would win, but I agree that he's absolutely back in with the challenge chance of winning as opposed to just being in survival mode. If you go back to not long after October 7th, it was sort of a matter of when Fe goes. And now here he is, you know, in a much, much stronger position.

[Rory Stewart]

Final thing on Joey Barton. I mean, that's really interesting, this stuff. And you're right, we got a lot of abuse. As soon as anything happens in Syria, there is an immediate move and it's often websites and accounts which are Russian. It used to be uae, but not anymore. Now they've got behind Syrian account, Israelis, Iranian backed accounts, very, very quick to move and attack Al Shara and indeed attack anyone like us who's ever interacted with him. But of course Joey Barton isn't really following what's happening in southern Syria or in particular one of the stories around the Druze, which is this man, Hikmat Al Hijri, who was the big leader of this and who's actually emerged stronger from it than before, got much more of the Druze community behind him. Of course, a lot of these people were pro Assad. A lot of them were involved in the smuggling of drugs across the border. A lot of them are involved in secular military stuff. A lot of them worked for Israel in the past. It's a horrible situation. And you know, nobody should be letting the Syrian regime off who clearly committed atrocities. But equally nobody should be trying to suggest that the Druze are somehow saints in this either. And the stakes for Syria could not be higher because depending everything that happened in the last 10 days just goes to the heart of is El Shara's government going to be able to create stability and growth in Syria or is it going to collapse again into a failed state? And this certainly set it back a very, very long way.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, Roy let's go for a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk about Japan and Superman, albeit not in the same sentence. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

So think about this. Most of us would not share our location, search history and passwords with strangers, but that's effectively what we do if we're on unsecured WI fi.

[Rory Stewart]

And that's one of the many reasons I am a great NORDVPN fan. Because what it does is it encrypts your Internet, it hides your IP address and it blocks trackers, all the while just running quietly in the background.

[Alistair Campbell]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[David Olusoga]

I'm David Ulushoga.

[Rory Stewart]

And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who live through it.

[David Olusoga]

Today we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London. One of the great pivotal events of the 17th century. One of the most important events in all of English and British history.

[Rory Stewart]

It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses. It decimated London and caused 10 billion pounds worth of of damage in today's money. It even burned down the iconic St. Paul's Cathedral.

[David Olusoga]

The city was already devastated by the Great plague. But rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors of fake news of xenophobia, problems that clearly are not unique to today.

[Rory Stewart]

From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings to the struggle to assign blame, which turned deadly. This is the story of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it Left on the city.

[David Olusoga]

We've got a short clip at the end of this episode.

[Rory Stewart]

Welcome back to the Rest is Politics Question time, where Alastair wants us to go into some Godzilla movie, which is combining Superman and Japan. So here we are. First, first question, Ruby Bates. How is Alastair getting on with meeting Rory's challenge to address the issue of young men being drawn to the right and even to out and out authoritarianism? Let's start on that and then we'll get on to Superman because there's a related question on Superman. But how are you getting on with young men on the far right?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I'm getting on with it in that I'm talking to lots of them and I'm trying to work my way through what I think about it. I've also been talking a lot to Peter Hyman, who's been doing this huge study, talking to 17 year olds and finding out what they really think. And we'll put in the, in the newsletter an article that the young guy he's been doing it with wrote in, I think it was the observer at the weekend. And one of the things I've been doing, which I want to push and promote today is working on this task force called the Lost Boys Task Force. And this was the idea of a guy called Paul Barber, who's the chief executive of Brighton and Hove Albion Football Club. And he brought a group of us together and it was, it was really interesting because we're all sort of in the same space that Gareth Southgate was in and others have been about role models, about mentors and what have you. But I think one of the things I was able to bring to is to say that, you know, be very, very clear with something like this is not government backed, but we're going to need government support. So be very, very clear about what you're calling for and why. And the thing we've alighted upon as the sort of first step is this what we call a trusted adult guarantee. And this is where. And this does need government backing and some government money. But what it essentially, what it means that there are, there are around about 630,000 young people in England who do not have access to what is called a trusted adult. That's somebody who they feel safe in going to outside their family. And it's a recognized kind of, it's a recognized position within advanced, developed modern societies.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us a little bit more about this trusted. So this is not your dad, this is what a school teacher or a football coach teacher.

[Alistair Campbell]

It can be a football coach, it can be a family friend, it can be somebody in your workplace, but it's somebody that becomes known as your trusted adult that you go to if you've got things you want to discuss that you feel you can't talk to your parents about. And so a lot of young men do see their teachers in this role. A lot of young men particularly see their sports teachers in this role. Twice as many young men as young women, for example. And where the government would come in is in essentially in backing it, in funding the training that goes with becoming somebody who becomes a trusted adult in an education and sports setting and focusing first of all on boys who are growing up in poverty and then having a kind of national tracking system on the number of young people who've got adults that they can speak to when they're struggling. And I don't know if you remember Gareth Southgate's Dimbleby lecture, which was a lot of it was about this, the young men, a lot of young men feeling lost and then they are very, very vulnerable to getting tapped up by these kind of right wing influencers who are frankly most of the minute for themselves. So I think this is a good, specific, narrow point that we're going to try and take to government and get the government to back.

[Rory Stewart]

I'm of course seeing it through the lens of having an 8 year old and a 10 year old son at the moment. My 8 year old, very, very interesting just how much he really values the male teachers at his school and he's moving schools and he just feels the loss of them so much. And you know, he had an amazing as an eight year old, incredible sit down with one of them talking through so many issues. And yes, you're right, partly it's one of them's a sports coach that he loves, another one's a deputy head. But it's lovely seeing these men who are just being. Yeah, they're great. I mean, I guess they're guys in their 30s and really, really kind and thoughtful with an eight year old. And it's wonderful to see the other thing, of course you see with young kids at the moment, this is obvious to every listener, but they are drenched in violence. They're drenched in violence from movies, from video games, from toys. And even if you're not putting your kids directly in front of this, all their friends are watching that stuff. So, you know, I can do all I can to shelter my kids, keep them away from the stuff on their, on screens or iPads, you know this. And anyone who hasn't listened to our Jonathan Haidt interview on leading. Please do. Because I think it's just extraordinary stuff on the influence list. But even if I keep them away from screens, they will come back having spoken to their friends and their friends are very, very quickly getting in, even at the age of eight, into influencers who are killing crocodiles or influencers who are bodybuilders. Even at seven. My little one was very, very excited by Anthony Joshua who we, we interviewed on Leading. This then raises the question, what are the values that they attach as they get older? Who are they looking for in politicians? Because if you're living in a world which is saturated with these sort of hyper aggressive images, figures, weapons, et cetera, then who is it that you think is exciting? Who is it you think is charismatic? Who is it that you look to by the time you are 16, which isn't very long away and it's only six years away, 10 year old and he's voting anyway over to you?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, as long as he votes labor, that's the main thing. What do you think of it as an idea that just to get this concept out there on the map. Trusted adult guarantee is not a state government plays a role in training and in trust tracking and you know, particularly with people who would be identified as being vulnerable or living in, you know, poor circumstances.

[Rory Stewart]

I think it's incredibly important because, you know, if I can think of how important it is to my child who is in so many ways so cherished, privileged, looked after, how important it is to him, how much more important it is to people who are in vulnerable circumstances or in poverty. I think it's an amazing thing to do. I mean yet again you've got to work out how you, how you do it effectively. I mean what you don't want is nightmare bureaucracy, another set of paperwork for teachers and all the kind of nonsense that we get. But, but look, if we could imitate what I'm seeing with the best men and, and getting, I mean, you know, part of it is also unfortunately getting more men teaching in primary schools. I mean those are very, very female dominated spaces.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah, but I, I, some of the best contributions on the task force. Quite a big, there's about 20 of us on it. Are actually young men who've been through really difficult times and have ended up turning their lives around in part with the help of a, of a trusted adult outside the family who's, you know, sometimes a teacher, sometimes a coach, sometimes a family friend, whoever it might be. Anyway, I hope people check it out. Hopefully that's going to make a contribution. But the other question, Roy, on this theme, Hareem, have either of you seen the new Superman film? If so, did you spot the pushback at some of the anti woke manosphere ideas that seem to be taking hold among young men? And I got a fabulous email from a woman who said, I hope, I don't know if you're a fan of Superman, she said, and brackets, I'm not, but if you go and see it, you'll see that actually that it's, it's even got some subtle messages about Gaza and I don't know if you saw that. So you went to see it.

[Rory Stewart]

I did go to see Superman and I think it's a lot of fun. I don't think you'd like it. I mean, you, you don't particularly like high tech stuff. I watched with Shoshana and she did think that the first half of it she got a bit put off by the violence and the high tech stuff. But as it developed she was increasingly interested. And there is, I mean, you know, it's pretty good at picking up on problems. And the first problem is that Superman is a celebrity hero who from the very beginning is being completely ground down by the modern world. So the whole thing is him being attacked on social media, all his motivations being challenged, made out as a villain. A society that's become completely sort of indifferent to the catastrophic issues surrounding it. So you get people working at their desks and outside the window are these kind of alien life forms being battled by Superman and they just don't care or they're taking little selfies in front of it. There's a big push from our supervillain who is again, a kind of Elon Musk like figure in the way that he's portrayed Lex Luthor. He's a sort of tech guy who's got a lot of contracts with the Department of Defense and who keeps saying the problem with Superman is he's an alien. Which explores another theme, which is his sense of inadequacy, his sense that Superman somehow ruins his life by making him feel inadequate all the time. I also thought about it a great deal. I've just been partly inspired by you been working on a BBC Radio 4 series called the Idea of the Hero From Achilles to Zelensky, which is coming out on the 4th of August. So kind of week and a half's time where I've been trying to look at how ideas of heroes have changed through time. And I think superheroes are a really really interesting example of this because on the one hand they're sort of role models, but on the other hand they're not very good role models because they are by definition not really human. They don't have normal, they're not limited in the way that humans are, they're not killed in the way that humans are. And they actually create a completely unrealistic idea of good against bad, you know, heroes against villains. The central part of the movie, which maybe you would enjoy, is that a sort of kind of Russian style dictator is invading his neighbors and his neighbors are basically seem to be Afghans or Pakistanis. They're dressed in shawar kameez, the women are veiled and it's them that Superman is defending. It's interesting decision from a Hollywood filmmaker that the sort of victims, the heroic resisters are Muslims.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, Rory, I haven't seen the film, but I have read the Economist editorial about it and it points out that the director James Gunn had apparently done an interview pointing out that Superman was an immigrant and that this was a story of basic human kindness which sent the MAGA crowd into overdrive, saying the whole thing was woke and therefore nobody should go to see it. Lots of people been to see it. But I love that the final line of this edit screen coil is this. The movie is not hid to get better. Instead it illuminates what has always been Superman's most important power. A character sound enough to resist the temptation to abuse his other powers. That is a political lesson for any era. Donald Trump, are you listening?

[Rory Stewart]

Maybe you should. Maybe you should go and see it.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, maybe I'll go see it.

[Rory Stewart]

June Bug, what's your opinion on the election success made by Japan's do it Yourself party? Now this is a big story which I think you said actually hasn't been properly covered. So over to you on Japan. And I've just got back from Japan, so I'm very interested in this too.

[Alistair Campbell]

So they had the election over the weekend in the country's upper house. Unlike the uk, both of their Houses of Parliament are elected. They'd already lost the majority in the lower house, which is like as with our system, is more powerful. But then losing it in the upper house is an indication that the ldp, the party that has governed Japan pretty much all of our lifetime with lots of different changes of leadership, but they've always adapted to stay pretty much in power. They've now lost control, lost overall control in both. And this is another story of they needed 50 seats, half of the seats were up for grabs, they needed 50 of the 124 to get to keep their majority. They ended up three short. The main opposition party came second, but pretty badly. And the two parties that did very well are these right wing parties. One of them, very populist, very Trumpian, calls himself Japan first, admires Trump. So the Democratic Party of the people and the more extreme one, the San Zaito Party, they have basically, you know, they look like they're beginning to break the mold. And the interesting thing is that it is younger people in particular who are voting. And this is what I was talking about yesterday on the main podcast, because they think that politics is skewed way too much to the old, that they're worried about demographics, they're worried about their lack of pay rises, they're worried about housing, and they're very worried about immigration and over tourism. Over tourism is a thing we should come back to at some point. Roy. This is another issue that is really sort of driving this populism.

[Rory Stewart]

The Japanese case is extraordinary because Japan is an outlier in so many ways. It's not just an island country, but it was a country that was the most incredible economic miracle in the world after the Second World War and, you know, had by the 1980s, was getting up to nearly 40% of Americans GDP and it was taking over Manhattan. And people thought at the time, they saw it in the way that we see China now, as the economic superpower that was going to run the whole world. And then, of course, famously, it ground to a halt and flatlined and property prices collapsed. And it's gone from being the greatest economic miracle to being the most incredible economic paradox. This enormous economy that suddenly stopped growing. And a lot of this, of course, is about demography, as you say. It's about a country where people are having very few children and where there are more and more older people. I'm pretty close to the median age in Japan, whereas in Nigeria, for example, the median age or in Afghanistan, the median age is 16. In Japan, it's almost 50. But it isn't a country that was particularly vulnerable to populism in elections. As you say, the ldp, which is a sort of center right, almost aristocratic party. I mean, we've talked about the fact a lot of these prime ministers come from political families. They're often, by Western standards, quite low key, quite conservatively dressed. Many of them have uncles and cousins who've been ministers before them. The current premises, no exception to this rule. There was a slight exception with Shinzo Abe, who was assassinated in 2022, who had a little bit more of a populist edge, but it's still very relative.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think though, he definitely held that sort of very nationalist right pretty much in check. Whereas his successor Sheba has kind of, he's let that go a bit and I think that's what's opened the door to this is this guy, Sohei Kamiya, who is the leader of this very far right party, the very, very populist party that he talks about, the deep state. He really made his name during COVID posting videos which essentially were conspiracy theories about vaccines and masks. So it's the same story that was fueling parts of maga.

[Rory Stewart]

One of the strangest things in the politics is, as you said, that there's an anti immigration message here. Although Japan has basically the lowest immigration.

[Alistair Campbell]

In the world, 3%.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. You go around Japan, you basically compared to almost any other developed economy in the world, you basically don't see people who aren't Japanese. It is incredibly difficult to get Japanese citizenship. Almost no asylum seekers are accepted in Japan. And yet as you say, it's become this political hot potato. And this is a sort of sense of a kind of the weirdness, the virtual world. So let's say you thought that all politics was completely just about the facts, right? And let's say you thought, as some people often suggest in Britain, that populism is just an objective reflection of the fact that growth is stagnant and immigration is too high. You've got to explain the fact that in Japan, where immigration is almost non existent, immigration has become the big issue that's helping the populace. And in America, where growth has been astonishing since 2008, gone from being the same size as the European economies to in some measures almost twice the size of the European economies. And yet still Donald Trump is elected. So clearly you're not going to solve populism just by reducing immigration and encouraging growth. I'm not saying those aren't both really important things to do. But you also have to understand that this part of modern politics completely sort of virtual. It's about the way that social media, Covid, for example, jfk, Epstein, create conspiracy theories, whip people up, disenchanted young men, lack of purpose. And in Japan in particular, this incredible, extraordinary traditional society with its very strange relationship with the modern world, which we can see in All My Children's Toys, you know, in hello Kitty, Transformers, Pokemon, all of which are ways in which Japanese young men are moving into a virtual world, creating almost childlike things, things as a way of responding to this strange moment.

[Alistair Campbell]

But this is what's going to be so difficult for the LDP. They've schmoozed along since 1955 as the absolutely dominant political force. They're suddenly no longer with a majority in either of the Houses of Parliament. And yet the issues, some of them are real and they're driven by, they'll look at the data and say, yeah, I can see where that's coming from. But you know, so the number of foreign residents in Japan is, it is a record, but it's 3.8 million out.

[Rory Stewart]

Of a population of almost 100 million.

[Alistair Campbell]

Exactly, exactly. So it's just over 3%. And so you've got them saying, young people saying, I'm voting for these populists because we're doing too much. We're going to have to work for too long to keep all these older people because the demography is there. Well, the obvious answer to that is you're going to have to get a few immigrants coming in to help to do something of the jobs. But they sort of, you know, they don't want to, don't want to see that. And the other thing that they're doing, which of course Farage does here, is they're basically saying that it's the foreigners that are responsible for the rising crime, the rising inflation, all the problems in our society.

[Rory Stewart]

Final point, the reason this matters, of course, is that Japan is still the third largest economy in the world. So any hope that we have of creating a world which isn't dominated by an unstable Trump or an authoritarian China involves Britain and the EU reaching out above all to places like Japan, South Korea, Australia. So let's say we're thinking about defense, let's say we're thinking about AI. In fact, almost anything to do with this rules based international order. The third way is going to come from those economies. But in order to do that, you really need a Japan which is still centrist, committed to a rules based international order. If Japan becomes populist nationalist, my goodness, they're not going to want to cooperate on international things like AI. We're not going to be able to rely on them. And of course that's also the problem when it comes to Europe. I mean, I think one of the things that's so mad about J.D. vance's attempt to promote far right populist parties in Germany and Spain and Austria is that these parties are not going to be allies for a western order. They're going to become themselves nativist, isolationist, screw the rules based order and then going to retreat in on themselves. So Japan is a really important bellwether for this. If Japan goes, then a lot of these hopes we have for some alternative to the US and China really fall away.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah. Your mention of J.D. vance there. I must mention the chat that I've done with David Frum on the end of the J.D. vance series. Honestly, listening to David Frum talk about how much Britain and Europe need from each other right now in the face of Vance, he's basically saying, forget that you can trust America in. It's a fascinating listen. It really, really is. And that's out on Friday for members. Now, Rory, we've got lots of questions about the Afghan data leak. Let's just give this one. Lauren Becker, what are you. It's very simple. What are your thoughts on the Afghan Super Injunction?

[Rory Stewart]

Firstly, just quick reminder for international listeners. The story seems to have been that during the evacuation from Kabul, a top secret list of tens of thousands of Afghans who'd worked closely with British forces was left so the Taliban could potentially gain access to it. And as a result, the British government began a secret policy of evacuating Afghans to the United Kingdom at a cost of billions of pounds and imposed a super injunction on the newspapers not to report on it from the government's point of view in order to protect, protect the identity of the Afghans they were moving. And when the news broke, firstly, the government was very unlucky. I mean, if this news had broken during the evacuation 2022, there was still a loss of sympathy for Afghans who'd worked for British forces three years later. Of course, people like Dominic Cummings see Afghans as the sort of epitome of all evil. And the idea is the government's engaged in a cover up and spending billions of pounds bringing unbroken wanted people to the United Kingdom rather than bringing people who'd work with our troops. It's also raised questions about the Taliban government itself because the last time the Taliban took over in the mid-90s, they conducted these brutal reprisals. So everybody was assuming the same thing would happen again. The truth is that actually the Taliban this time around are not quite like the Taliban in the past. Yes, a few hundred people were killed, but not the tens that thousands of deaths that people were expecting. And the Taliban government is a chauvinistic government that has put out very aggressive edicts against women. Women's life in Afghanistan is very difficult. But as I discovered when I was in Afghanistan towards the end of last year, in many other ways, security is actually Relatively good. The problems with the country are oppression of women and stagnant economic growth. Not so much this reprisal. So, anyway, over to you. What did you make of it all?

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, God. It's a really, really tricky one because on the one hand you think, my God, these data leaks happen. They shouldn't, but they do. And the mod, sometimes I think it can be a bit loose, but it's. One individual makes a terrible mistake. These names with email addresses and other contacts, including people who have worked for Britain during the war. Others are just people who want to come and live in Britain, are making applications to come here. But you get these thousands and thousands of names go out there. Including them, we discover later, several dozen members of special forces and members of the British intelligence services. So you can see why when this happened, the mod thinks, shit, we have got to kind of try to clamp down on this. So they go and get injunction. Okay, I'm imagining while they work out what to do, I spoke to somebody about this who's really closely involved in it. So it was then the judge that decided to make it a super injunction.

[Rory Stewart]

What's the difference, Alice, between an injunction and super injunction?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, if you have an injunction, the media can report that there is an injunction. With a super injunction, you can't even report that the injunction has been granted. And I also heard, again, I'm not. I haven't verified this independently, but you can see why this might be the case, that the speaker of the House of Commons was told by the court that, you know, MPs shouldn't raise it in Parliament. So you're talking about a level of secrecy that is really, really, really high now that I think at the time was Ben Wallace, then you had Grant Shapps. And then of course, you can see why, with all the toxic politics around refugees, they did not want this coming out during election campaign. What's happened since then, as I understand it, is John Healy as Defense Secretary, is kind of been landed. He was briefed apparently in opposition, but he didn't say anything, kept it to himself in office, checked the policy and decided to publish what was called the Rimmer Report. Was into all this, but also felt that they had to end this secret route for Afghans who were coming here, not least because the costs were astronomical. And somebody I spoke to, the MoD, says they reckon they've saved about 1, 1.2 billion by bringing that route to an end. And also understanding that, I mean, basically, I think their view was that the Taliban knew all about this stuff anyway, it's not as if they don't have access to knowing what, what people are doing, what have you. So the thing's been lifted, but what it means is that something around, if you include the families of the people who've come, by the end of it, it's going to be about 7,000 in total. Okay, so 7,000 people will come here. Now, some of them are already here and are working and their kids are in school. Some of them probably are struggling. But it's, you know, in the current environment. And it was, this was, this was underlined by the, by Richard Tice, the reform guy, who during the evacuation from Kabul was saying, we must take the Afghans who work for us, no ifs, no buts, and now is saying, this is an absolute abomination. None of these people should be brought in, et cetera, et cetera. So reform hypocrisy. Wow. Breaking news. But I actually think John Healey's ended up in a, you know, clearly a mess. But I think he's just about got to the right place. But now what's happening is the Intelligence Select Committee and the Defense Select Committee are going to have really, really deep dive inquiries on to how this happened, how the schemes worked and what other and how the other schemes involving Afghans have panned out.

[Rory Stewart]

It is possible still to support people in Afghanistan. It's still possible to do really good development work there all the time in any of these conflict zones. And nonprofits working in them are having to make these very difficult choices of balancing what you can do to help individuals who are in real poverty and suffering against conflicts and regimes who are like the Taliban before we even get into the details. And I think in a sense, the British government is dealing with this too. And I'm so pleased you raised that Richard Tice thing. It's so strange that the right has gone from the position of these were brave Afghans working with our boys on the ground. We have a moral obligation towards them to now presenting them as kind of evil refugees who are destroying the United Kingdom.

[Alistair Campbell]

It doesn't do much for our soft power either and our reliability.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, here we are. Final question for you, Tom Henry Shropshire. Hello, both. I don't know about both. With the British and Irish Lions rugby tour to Australia underway, I wanted to hear Alice's recollection of an event I heard on a podcast recently. Prior to a big squad announcement press conference. One of the players kegged you and pulled your trousers down in front of the press conference. Then another player proceeded to steal your black Blue phone and text. Tony Blair, I love you. To the hysterics of the players. Please can you confirm this funny story and give your version of events and give a quick insight into your experience on that tour and the challenges compared to managing politicals. Blimey, Alistair. I mean, talk about toxic masculinity. What's going on in this anecdote?

[Alistair Campbell]

You didn't know that I was an international rugby player, did you?

[Rory Stewart]

I. I did not.

[Alistair Campbell]

The story's sort of true. It's sort of true. So I went on the lions tour in 2005 and they're still writing about it. Lakeep, the French sports newspaper, had a huge piece about it the other day about, you know, the. The spin doctor who caused chaos and the. On the Lion's tour and. But I actually got on. I really enjoyed it. I wouldn't do it again because I think it was the time when I realized I couldn't really do a normal comms job again because there was too much of a sort of focus on what I was doing and saying. But this specific incident is true. And what happened was. Do you know about. I don't know if you've ever been on a rugby tour or. But one of the things they tell you is always keep the lace on your tracksuit bottom tied, properly tied up. Okay. And so I'm walking out and I think it was Steve Thompson the hooker and Paul o' Connell the Irish lock forward, who basically grabbed one side of my trousers each and pull them down as we were coming out. Now, I hastily pulled them up and then watched in utter panic, horror, call it what you want, as my then BlackBerry flew out of my pocket. Okay. To be picked up by Steve Thompson, who ran away with it. Okay. And I only got it back by saying to the security people, listen, there's no point me trying to reason with. You'll just tell me to f off. Would you tell it. There's stuff on there. Which, if it got out, I would be in really deep shit. Really deep shit. And therefore you've got to go get it back for me. Which they. Which they did. He's always. They've always maintained they texted Tony Blair and said I love you, but if so, they sent it to the wrong love because Tony never got that text.

[Rory Stewart]

Did you reach out to Tony and say, by the way, if you got a text from me saying I love you that was sent by a drunken rugby player?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, he'd already had experience of it because he. I was once on the phone to him when Gareth Thomas who was everybody called Alfie. Massive character, Welsh player. And he was. I was out talking to Tony and he came out for a walk and he said, who are you talking to? And I said, tony Blair. And he says, off, you're not talking to Tony Blair. Give me your phone. I said, I am. Promise you, I am. Let me speak to him. So I put him on Tony Blair. And I'll never forget, he said. He said, anyway, Tony, great talking to you. Next time you're down in Wales, come and look me up and we'll go for a paint buddy. And he gave me back the phone and then ran down the street shouting into pubs and clubs that, you know, he'd just been talking to Tony Blair. So, no, I didn't tell Tony about the. The. I love you. But here's the thing, Rory. On the back of that tour, one of the players was a guy called Richard Hill, who went on to be the manager of. Of England. And at not long after, he contacted me and said, we've got this young player, a rising star, who we'd love you to sort of sit down and talk to about dealing with the media, dealing with pressure. This was, you know, a long time ago now. And he came to our. Came to my house here, and we sat down and chatted, and we've stayed in touch ever since. And that young star is the name. His name is Maro Itoji, and he is currently the captain of the British and Irish Lions. And they won the first test of the weekend. So there you go.

[Rory Stewart]

Final thing for me. Just on that, just give us a sense of what actually are a couple of bits of advice that you might give someone who is suddenly, I don't know, whether in business or in sports, suddenly getting under the pressures of media for the first time. What would be a couple of things to think about for listeners.

[Alistair Campbell]

Understand the difference between pressure and stress.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, Explain that pressure is good.

[Alistair Campbell]

Feeling pressure means that it matters. It means you work harder, you'll focus better. Stress is bad because you start to lose your focus, your concentration, and you. You feel edgy about it. So understand the difference. And the other thing we talked about was the importance of always being however you're communicating, being authentic to a sense of yourself and not feeling that you have to sort of pretend that you're something that you're not. And if you watch, it's really interesting. Maro at the moment, he's doing lots of interviews, inevitably, because he's the captain and he's got his own way of doing it. He speaks quite Softly. He's very thoughtful, he doesn't come out with terrible cliches that a lot of them do. And the other thing of course is, you know, don't read the papers and don't read the comments about you on social media.

[Rory Stewart]

I'm very bad at that anyway.

[Alistair Campbell]

You are very, very, very bad at that.

[Rory Stewart]

I do. Very bad. Contributes to my stress rather than pressure.

[Alistair Campbell]

The reason we should tell our listeners that you're in Colombia is because you're actually having a holiday with your family. And for the first time, I think in, apart from when you do your funny retreats, you're going to have a week off next week so listeners will miss your dulcet tones. But I shall be joined by none other than our American sister, Katie K.

[Rory Stewart]

Be brilliant and I really hope and thank you guys. Yes, and apologies if you've heard strange sounds background. These are jungle birds chasing that. So, yeah, I'm going to have a full two weeks off. I'm going to put on the vacation reply email. I'm going to hand my horrible phone away so that I can't get to it. And so Atos, you're not going to be able to WhatsApp me for the next 10 days.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'll find a way. I will find a way.

[Rory Stewart]

And another thing that people can listen to while I'm away, apart from the dulcet tones, Catechet is our two part interview with Gary Stevenson. He is this extraordinary man who came from a tough background, became a trader banker and developed a deep, deep unease with the way that the financial system works and is now campaigning for wealth, taxes and an economic revolution, political revolution almost, in the United Kingdom. What did you think about the Gary Stevenson interviews, Alistair?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, I think he's an interesting guy. We both agreed that he wrote a very good book. I'm slightly worried about people who, I looked on his Instagram profile and it says lots of people have ideas when, but mine are all right, there's a little bit of, kind of, you know, I mean, when, when we were off air he was talking about how hard he was finding it to cope with Gary Mania. You know, I think you got a little bit of humility about this stuff. But listen, he's an interesting guy and he's, and he's, he's definitely in a big debate here about the nature of our economy, the nature of our society, how we deal with inequality and he's, you know, and he's got a lot of followers, particularly amongst young people. So he is, he is without doubt a voice If I were a politic, a serving politician, I would definitely engage with him.

[Rory Stewart]

Very good, very good. Well, anyway, have a lovely time and I'll return to the Jungle Birds. Bye bye.

[Alistair Campbell]

Excellent. Bye bye.

[David Olusoga]

It's David Ulusoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier. If you look at all of the accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday, the 2nd, the 1st day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there are some people who've argued that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding it, was becoming self sustaining, as it were. John Eveling, who's a great writer and a diarist of this moment, he told, he talks about the sound of the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Pepys and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. I mean, imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges, and above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city, you know, these are streets you walk. This is a place that's deeply familiar to you. And it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of landscape you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural.

[Rory Stewart]

If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time. Wherever you get your podcasts.