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The Rest Is Politics
433. Question Time: Epstein’s Inner Circle, Ukraine’s Zelensky Backlash, and Destroying the Addiction Economy
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- [00:01]
Alastair Campbell
Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the restispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com the rest is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy and Fuse are now offering £20 credit and free trip plus membership if you switch to a fixed tariff before the end of August.
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Katy Kay
They've listened carefully to their customers and the number one request was gas tariffs. So now at last you can switch both your gas and electricity to Fuse. One supplier, one bill, one less quagmire to navigate.
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Alastair Campbell
It's also cheaper. Fuse gas and electricity customers typically save £150 versus the price cap.
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Alastair Campbell
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Katy Kay
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Alastair Campbell
So go to fuseenergy.com forward/politics to switch your gas and electricity to Fuse and get your £20 credit and free trip.
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David Olusoga
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- [02:03]
Alastair Campbell
Welcome to the Rest is Politics. Question time with me, Asda Campbell and.
- [02:07]
Katy Kay
Me, Katy, Kay and Katty.
- [02:08]
Alastair Campbell
Thank you for being here. As I said on the main episode yesterday, Roy Stewart is absent without leave or on leave without permission. Just disappeared, vanished to the other end of the earth.
- [02:18]
Katy Kay
Wandering somewhere vaguely around Columbia, I don't know where.
- [02:21]
Alastair Campbell
Somewhere in Columbia. He will be back, fear not, next week, but in the meantime it's great to have Kassie Epstein. You said yesterday that Epstein has been dominant in the American media and clearly been breaking through in Australia as well. Jennifer is a member from Adelaide. What is the likelihood that Trump will be impeached over Epstein? Would this be an opportunity for Vance to make a move to assume the presidency? I'm guessing not.
- [02:46]
Katy Kay
Yeah, I think the chances of him being impeached at all, even if, first of all, the Democrats would have to take back the House in the midterm elections next year because at the moment they don't control the House, so they can't do anything about an impeachment process. There's a whole load of things that various Democrats have muttered about trying to impeach Donald Trump on, particularly around corruption and money issues. But the chances of him being impeached over Jeffrey Epstein, I think are pretty slim. The reporting is from the Wall Street Journal that Donald Trump's name is mentioned in the mysterious Jeffrey Epstein files, whatever they may be. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was kind of doing anything particularly nefarious with Jeffrey Epstein. It just means that, you know, Jeffrey Epstein had his contact or they were at a party together, all of which we already know. So I think the chances of him being impeached are pretty slim around that. I think J.D. is going to play. We spoke about this on the podcast yesterday and David Frum has spoken about this with you in your interview. Alistair around J.D. vance. J.D. is going to keep Donald Trump very close for as long as he needs him, which is probably going to be right up until the primary process, even through the primary process, because even if Donald Trump is not running in 2028, he's going to be a very big figure ye in the election process. He still has people who adore him, millions of Americans who adore him. And so I don't think JD Is going to move against Trump in any way, and particularly not over Epstein. If you are hoping that this is the way this ends, I don't think that's the right ending for this story.
- [04:14]
Alastair Campbell
Can I just ask you something? So Rory and I talked about this last week and I had a few people say, hold on. Trump and Epstein were unbelievably close, unbelievably close for quite a long time. There's little Epstein would be doing that Trump wouldn't necessarily have known about. And you read on the rest his Politics us last week, you read some of the testimony and I must be honest, I had not read it. It was interviews with some of the children that had been abused by Epstein. And it was pretty, I don't even know the word. It was like, oh my God, this is even worse than I thought. Do you think there is a desperation in Trump for the full story of Epstein not to come out?
- [04:58]
Katy Kay
I think anyone who had an association with Trump and remember, you know, Vera Wang, the amazing fashion designers, allegedly has sent one of those letters to Jeffrey Epstein for his 50th birthday as well. I mean, there is a whole host of people which now, given what the public knows Jeffrey Epstein was doing at the time, don't want any kind of association, don't want their names to be linked, both Democrats and Republicans. Bill Clinton has often been associated with Jeffrey Epstein. They don't want their names coming out. They don't want this to go anywhere. And I think the reason I read that out on the podcast last week is I think there's a tendency with the Epstein story to see this in political terms. You know, will he be impeached? Could J.D. vance move?
- [05:45]
Alastair Campbell
Yeah, exactly.
- [05:45]
Katy Kay
And when we do that, we ignore the voices of these victims. I read through that testimony. God, it's making me almost tear up again thinking about it, Alistair. It's so chilling because it's so clinical. And the way he moved on these girls and deliberately seemed to go for 14 year old girls, many of whom had already been abused, who he then.
- [06:08]
Alastair Campbell
Told when they became 18, they were.
- [06:10]
Katy Kay
Too old, or Ghislaine Maxwell stopped calling them and the understanding was that they were too old at the age of 18. It's not just that these girls suffered then. Every time this story comes back again, they have to relive that trauma of abuse, the guilt, the embarrassment, the shame, the fear that comes with that. And I think it's that story actually, in a way that is the important political story as well. Because this was a really awful thing that Epstein did. And therefore anyone who knew what he was doing tolerated what he was doing. Even if they didn't do it themselves, they're complicit in this unbelievably awful series of rapes of children.
- [06:54]
Alastair Campbell
Yeah. Well, I'm going to make an executive decision here, Katie. I think we should play into this part of this podcast for those who don't necessarily yet listen to Trip to us, what you read out last week because it was horrific. It's quite a difficult listen. But listening to Katie from last week's Trip Us.
- [07:12]
Katy Kay
Okay, so this is the questioner is.
- [07:14]
Maureen Comey
Maureen Comey, who was the prosecutor for the prosecution in the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, Jane, I want to ask you.
- [07:21]
Katy Kay
Did there come a time in your.
- [07:22]
Maureen Comey
Life when you met someone named Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. What year was that? 1994. Did there come a time in your life when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. How old were you when that first happened? 14 years old. There's another bit I want to read you from another witness Too. And this is when a young girl is brought to Jeffrey Epstein's house. When you walked into the kitchen, what happened? We were greeted by Ms. Maxwell. Did Mr. Epstein touch you during your. This first massage? No. After that ended, what happened next? I was paid.
- [08:00]
Katy Kay
In total.
- [08:01]
Maureen Comey
Approximately how many times did you go over to Mr. Epstein's house to give him massages? Over a hundred. About how often did you go over to his house to provide those massages? Two or three times a week. About how old were you the first time you went over to his house? 14. And about how old were you the last time you went to his house?
- [08:22]
Katy Kay
18.
- [08:24]
Maureen Comey
When you interacted with Maxwell, what, if any, conversations did you have with her about your family? About my upbringing and things that were.
- [08:32]
Katy Kay
Going on at the time.
- [08:33]
Maureen Comey
What did you tell Maxwell? That my mum was an alcoholic and I had been molested and Just random personal things. I remember telling her that I'd been raped and molested by my grandfather. Starting at the age of four, after you told Maxwell you were 14, did she continue to call you to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein, did he masturbate? Every single time. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein, did he touch your breasts? Every time. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein, did he touch your buttocks? Every time. Were there ever massages you provided Jeffrey Epstein where nothing sexual happened? No. Something sexual happened every single time. Why did you stop going to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
- [09:24]
Katy Kay
Because I became too old.
- [09:26]
Maureen Comey
How old were you?
- [09:28]
Katy Kay
18.
- [09:30]
Alastair Campbell
That kind of, in many ways, speaks for itself. But let me just put something back to you. You made a point somewhere, I can't remember where I saw you say this, but Donald Trump has not once said anything that I would define as being empathetic about the victims. The only person he has been nice about in this entire thing, Epstein is now a sort of terrible person. He always knew he was a terrible person. Nothing to do with me. Go away. Is Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, I know Ghislaine pretty well from my days on the Mirror. In fact, I've written my entire page in the New World this week about my knowledge of and insight into Ghislaine, who I always thought was a lot more. I always found her very funny, very engaging, but there was something deeply sad about her as well. And if you'd have said to me back then, she'd have become this sort of madam to the notorious sex trafficker, I said, no, no, that's not her. But if you'd have said to me, she'll become attached to a very, very powerful man who moves in mysterious circles and lives a life where fact is a bit stranger than fiction, I could have seen it, because that was her. That was her dad. I don't want to go psycho babble, but I think if you've got a father like Robert Maxwell, it's going to be quite hard to come out sort of unscathed. But what does it say about Trump that he's even now quite openly talking about the fact that he does have the power to pardon her? Could he get away with that?
- [10:57]
Katy Kay
Listen to that testimony, right? That is from Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. And she is clearly the conduit of these girls. She's the recruiter of these girls. And the idea that she might be pardoned, I think you would have uproar. He did say up in Scotland this week that he had the power. It was something that he could potentially do. And it is weird. It's almost unknown, unprecedented, according to constitutional lawyers that I've spoken to. For somebody senior from the Department of Justice who is a political appointee to go to a prisoner to have kind of post trial discussions. And it looks like they're trying to get something from Ghislaine Maxwell in exchange for some sort of, you know, commutation or lessening of her sentence or something. So it all looks very fishy. But when you hear that testimony and you are reminded of the role she played in destroying the lives of these girls, I do think you'd have real pushback from evangelical Christians around the country. I know they've been in the Trump camp. They've tolerated an awful lot. They did a Faustian bargain. But look at the whole Epstein saga. The Epstein saga is being kept in the front pages, not by Democrats, but by maga. Right. And it would play into the idea of powerful people defending powerful people defending pedophiles. The world is run by pedophiles. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory. And if she's pardoned, that plays into the conspiracy theory.
- [12:19]
Alastair Campbell
Okay, now, Katie, you're on instead of Rory for this week. But it coincides with me receiving this question last week from a lady called Kira Bergman. She's the chief executive of Rape Crisis England and Wales. There is a link, clearly to what we've just been discussing about. This is specifically about England and Wales. Despite repeated strategies, says Kira, successive governments have failed to reduce violence against women and girls in a meaningful way. The current government pledged to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. But its strategy has been delayed and key funding decisions, like the 53 million investment in the Drive perpetrator program, were made without consultation with questionable evidence of impact. Meanwhile, rape crisis centres are closing, services for marginalised survivors are underfunded and the response to rape remains deeply inadequate. Why do you think governments continue to fail on this issue? What would a serious, effective strategy to reduce violence against women and girls? Look, how can politicians, especially male politicians, help drive real change? And Kira actually said that she wanted me and Rory to talk about this because she felt male politicians felt they couldn't really engage in this issue in a way that women can. But you first, and then I'll have a few thoughts of my own.
- [13:34]
Katy Kay
You should answer this because it's a very UK specific question when it comes to funding and policy and what's being done. But I will say that one thing I'm noticing in the States is that there is, there is a pushback against women and women's issues. At its easiest, it's around DEI issues, but it's happened in the last few months and the progress of that from kind of, well, women have just been appointed because of dei. We should clamp down on dei. And I've had lots of my friends who work in this space say there's no funding for it anymore. You can't really talk about it anymore. You can't really talk about equity issues in the workplace anymore. And the sort of steps from that to violence against women, an increasing violence against women. I could see that happening and I think it is something that women generally are afraid of and I think it's true. It's something that male politicians feel very squeamish about talking about. And I wish we could pull them into the conversation much more because we would all be better off if men joined us in this conversation.
- [14:32]
Alastair Campbell
I do agree with that. And of course, you know, my daughter Grace, who is a comedian and talks about sex a lot, writes about sex a lot, and she had an experience of rape in America a few years ago now and she wrote a piece about it and she in that piece, which obviously, you know, was a very, very difficult read on all sorts of levels for her parents. But one of the points that came through to me was that she and I spoke to her friends about this as well. The idea of reporting it to the police is just like they don't even think about it. And one of the points that Kira made to me is that the, the conviction rate on rape, it hovers somewhere between 1 and 2%, whereas there is more, probably not adequate and the services aren't good enough. But domestic violence, that we think of as, you know, a man knocks a woman about and the woman goes off to try to find a refuge. Men can kind of handle that. Rape, it gets to a different sort of level. And maybe we don't want to be part of the debate when, as you say, we have to, not least because governments are going to have to address this. And so just to give some of the stats around this is the England and Wales, 798,000 women raped each year. That's one in 30. So most of us will know somebody raped or sexually assaulted. The waiting time, and this is at a time when Brian Levison, the judge, retired judge, has just done a report about Crown Court trials and the massive, massive backlog that there is. So we're talking about an average of at least two years to get to court. Currently almost 12,000 waiting. The answer to Kira, you know, she knows about this a lot, lot more than I do. But I think that when we talk about having a strategy, there has to mean something. There has to be a strategy that says this is the scale of the problem, these are the kind of measures that we, we ought to be able to address it. But one of them has to be that women feel much more and men, by the way, men who get raped tend not to report it because they say the police don't understand. So I think it's about understanding. It's then about us understanding that we think the services are there. Actually, the women you talk to who work in this area, they say the services are disintegrating in part because we're not prepared to talk about this. And also without getting too political, I couldn't help noticing we're a year on from the Southport riots that followed the murder of those three little girls. And I saw thinking that two out of five of those who were convicted of violence were known to the authorities for domestic violence. I'm not saying, by the way, domestic violence is an exclusively right wing thing. I am saying this is a way bigger problem than we sometimes like to admit.
- [17:30]
Katy Kay
Yeah. And it's one of those subjects, whether it's domestic violence or rape. I thought those figures that our great producing team put in there about how one of the things that women say, and we heard this during MeToo, does make me think of the Epstein story, is the embarrassment and the shame that women face when they've been sexually abused or raped and that they carry that guilt with them for years. Somehow they feel they were at fault or they were too weak or they should have offended this. This off. Or if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And when they go to the police, very often what these women say in the States and here in the UK is my understanding, is that that increases their mental health stress, because the police treatment is not sensitive enough and is not open enough to what they are feeling and what they've gone through.
- [18:22]
Alastair Campbell
And, you know, the thing that Grace said about her is that, you know, she. She had this even from her own kind of. Of our own circles online of people saying, well, hold on a minute. If you. If you're going to talk so much about sex and you're going to do comedy shows about sex, it's almost like saying, well, you know, you're gonna have to expect a bit of this. You know, it's like the old judges used to say, well, if you're going to wear a mini skirt, if you're.
- [18:43]
Katy Kay
Going to wear a short skirt, if.
- [18:44]
Alastair Campbell
You wear a short skirt, you can't expect.
- [18:45]
Katy Kay
Because boys will be boys. Boys will be boys. Yeah.
- [18:48]
Alastair Campbell
Another stat that's kind of relevant to this, which Kira from the Rape Crisis center told me. An average of 2 women who each week are murdered by men, and yet women and children really struggle to find a refuge. And, of course, we had a very. I don't know if you saw this, Katie. You were probably in the States at the time. We had a big case recently where the controlling husband of a woman who was in a refuge tricked her into revealing where she was, and he found her and he killed her. So there you are, Kira. Thank you for that. That is a very, very, very heavy subject, but I think it's one that Kira's right that men do need to talk about. We'll come back to it with Rory another time.
- [19:23]
Katy Kay
Shall I read the next one?
- [19:24]
Alastair Campbell
Yep.
- [19:25]
Katy Kay
Okay. This one comes from Viv Felton. Why did the European Union withhold $1.5 billion in aid to Ukraine? And how does this reflect the EU stance on President Zelenskyy's recent domestic policy decisions? Why don't you explain, Alistair, what happened and why?
- [19:41]
Alastair Campbell
Well, the reason that they've said they're withholding it, I suspect that given the way he's reacted in recent days, it will not necessarily be seen through is because Zelenskyy, who has, you know, I said in the main podcast yesterday when I was int. I think has been an extraordinary leader and has barely put a foot wrong. But I think he did put a foot wrong with this. Essentially what happened was that they brought in a new law in the Ukrainian parliament to relieve two big anti corruption agencies of their independence and put them under the control of the Prosecutor General, who is appointed by the President. It led to the first really big protests. It led to a couple of days where the Ukrainian government was very defensive and saying, no, no, no, this, these guys have been infiltrated by the Russians and da, da, da, da. People didn't really buy that. It may be true, but people were not willing to buy it. There were more protests and eventually, not least under pressure in the European Union and others, Zelenskyy reversed this. And he reversed it pretty quickly. So I think he was aware that this was a bad, bad move. And one of the things that this has brought out much more into the public is that there are people who've been close to Zelenskyy in the past, including a former deputy Prime Minister, including somebody in his own team, who were under investigation and had been under investigation by these bodies for corruption. So bad move to do it in the first place. Good move to reverse it and probably damage undone, but with a bit of a tarnish still there.
- [21:16]
Katy Kay
Yeah, that's what I'd heard from UK officials who follow this, that it could be that it was just getting too close to Zelenskyy and that was why he felt he should push ahead with these moves. But something that clearly annoyed not just the Europeans, by the way, but a lot of American senators, including Republican senators, who want to see corruption stamped out in Ukraine.
- [21:34]
Alastair Campbell
Okay, let's take a quick break and then we're going to come back for more questions.
- [21:41]
David Olusoga
I'm David Ulushoga.
- [21:42]
Sarah Churchwell
And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who live through it to.
- [21:50]
David Olusoga
Today, we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London. One of the great pivotal events of the 17th century, one of the most important events in all of English and British history.
- [22:00]
Sarah Churchwell
It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses. It decimated London and caused £10 billion worth of damage in today's money. It even burned down the iconic St. Paul's Cathedral.
- [22:16]
David Olusoga
The city was already devastated by the great plague, but rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors of fake news, of xenophobia, problems that clearly are not unique to today.
- [22:34]
Sarah Churchwell
From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings to the struggle to assign blame which turned deadly. This is the story of the of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it left on the city.
- [22:47]
David Olusoga
We've got a short clip at the end of this episode.
- [22:57]
Alastair Campbell
This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.
- [23:00]
Katy Kay
In today's world, it's more and more difficult to remain private online. A very, very difficult to protect yourself from a whole series of people trying to intrude, gather your data and commit fraud.
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Alastair Campbell
And also this is of course, peak season for public wi fi. Spend a lot of time in trains, airports, hotels, traveling around. Plenty of people still go online with very limited protection. No password, no encryption, no idea who's watching.
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Katy Kay
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Alastair Campbell
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- [24:05]
David Olusoga
I'm David Ulushogger.
- [24:06]
Sarah Churchwell
And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who live through it.
- [24:14]
David Olusoga
Today we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London. One of the great pivotal events of the 17th century. One of the most important events in all of English in British history.
- [24:24]
Sarah Churchwell
It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses. It decimated London. London and caused £10 billion worth of damage in today's money. It even burned down the iconic St. Paul's Cathedral.
- [24:40]
David Olusoga
The city was already devastated by the great plague. But rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors of fake news, of xenophobia, problems that clearly are not unique to today.
- [24:58]
Sarah Churchwell
From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings to the struggle to assign blame which turned deadly. This is the story of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it left on the city.
- [25:11]
David Olusoga
We've got a short clip at the end of this episode.
- [25:21]
Alastair Campbell
Welcome back to the races Politics Question time with me, Alastair Campbell, a me Catty K. Now, Rory and I had a discussion a few weeks ago about health, the health service and prevention rather than cure. And I dropped into the conversation that, you know, well, we do seem to have this sort of fondness for things that damages like alcohol, like crap food and whatever you have. And a guy called Joe Woof, amazing name, Wooof, got in touch and told me he was writing a book book. And the question goes as follows. Considering your idea of a public health fund, I said there maybe should be a public health fund where we actually get these food companies and drink companies. They have to make contributions as well. How do we stop treating addiction as just an individual fault? Instead, how do we break down this addictive environment by limiting how products are sold and advertised? Surely we need alternative forces like youth clubs, community space that help people connect and thrive, especially the young, rather than just offering more support to quit or more education. And Joe Wolfe's point is that, and this is the book he's writing about is called the Addiction Economy that alcohol, fast food, junk food is designed to make us addicted to us. And this is what he is going to be writing about. So listen, you live in the capital of globe, but I have to say America is the capital of global junk junk food with a president who loves it as well.
- [26:48]
Katy Kay
We do have a secretary of health now in Bobby Kennedy Jr. Who is actually trying to diminish the amount of addictive properties that are in junk food. Has been pretty successful in moves to take out, for example, Bright. I don't know if you've ever had Froot Loops. If you have the pleasure of a bowl of Fruit Loops for breakfast there in the south of France is not perhaps something that's available. They are bright neon colored little circles, purple, blue, orange, yellow, green. And they're basically pure sugar and food dye. I mean it's a bowl full of sugar with some food dye at least. Now Bobby Kennedy to his credit, is trying to diminish the amount of addictive properties and sugar and food dyes and things. And you're right that there is a huge amount of addiction to fast food. There's a great book called the Fast Food Nation which is all about how the big fast food companies have put deliberately put addictive properties into food to make us addicted. But what I'd be interested in from your perspective and Joe Wolf's perspective is to what degree do both of you think that some of these addictions are actually genetic? And therefore we should be looking at the scientific measures to stop whatever it is that turns on those genes in people from getting them caught in, in addictive behavior. Because that is the focus of attention in the States at the moment with drugs like we're going, the, the idea that drugs like WeGovy, these, the fat fighting drugs that were taken on for obesity has a different name here in the uk, doesn't it? But in America, Ozempic. Yeah. That they actually have the potential to cut addiction. So that's where the most of the focus is.
- [28:29]
Alastair Campbell
Yeah. Although they, they are going to be 15% at least more expensive to American consumers as a result of the, the tariffs. I did actually suggest the Danish government when Trump was going on about Greenland, where apparently he's still going about Greenland more privately than he is publicly at the moment, that actually what Denmark would you say? Well, you invade Greenland and we block all sales of all the swimming drugs to America. See how you like that, fat man. So I think on this that, that's pretty interesting because I did a BBC documentary about depression a few years ago and I went to Canada to interview a really interesting woman called Dr. Janine Austin and she's a geneticist, she studies genetics. Now we were talking about genetic in relation to mental health issues such as depression and anxiety. Her view was that it was much more environmental than genetic. But I hadn't really thought about it in the context of straightforward addictions. But I think this is where the environmental mixes with the experiential, if you like. Because of course, if you're brought up in a, in a house that is addicted or believes that there's nothing wrong with fast food, there's nothing wrong with junk food, there's nothing wrong with all the stuff that we, you know, I mean, I'm imagining that breakfast that you described as a breakfast cereal that kids eat before they go to school.
- [29:52]
Katy Kay
Absolutely. On a sugar high.
- [29:54]
Alastair Campbell
Exactly. So, so, and, and I, I, you know, regularly when I'm going to this, coming back from the swimming pool in the morning, we'll see kids going to school, eating crisps, eating chocolate, drinking Coca Cola, what have you. And I kind of again rage about it because I just think, well, that's so bad. But what Joe is saying is that we shouldn't blame the people who are doing this because they are conditioned by the industry. And then, of course, this is not a genetic point, but it's a parental point. And then my parents who've grown up thinking there's nothing wrong with this stuff anyway. And then of course, what you have where this becomes political, you have the sort of Nigel Farages of this world say that people like me who say, you know, it's bad to eat crap all day long, we just want to spoil people's fun. And this then becomes the sort of political thing. We're the killjoys. And they, the populace, are the people who want to give you a better life because you want to eat this crap. And you should be trusted to make those decisions for yourself. And what Joe Wolfe said about the discussion that Rory and I had, he said we were sort of revealing what he felt was a sense that being fat, being drunk, losing your money to gambling, that's your fault. These are choices you're making. The point that Joe's book is going to make is that, well, maybe up to a point. And I said, actually, in that film, when an alcoholic picks up a drink, that is the individual choice that they are making at that time. But alcoholism is in part created by an industry that wants people to drink.
- [31:26]
Katy Kay
More and more and more and by genes.
- [31:28]
Alastair Campbell
I don't know about the genetic bit.
- [31:30]
Katy Kay
I know about the genetic bit on some addictions, and there's definitely a genetic profile in certain addictions.
- [31:35]
Alastair Campbell
But is it a genetic profile or the fact that if you're raised in a family that says addicted to drugs or addicted to alcohol or anything else, that you might be more liable to follow those patterns of behavior? I don't know.
- [31:48]
Katy Kay
To be discussed. This is for you, Alastair, from Sam, who is a member. Thank you for being a member, Sam from Hertfordshire. I know I'm young and probably over optimistic, but I've been thinking a lot about whether hope is a weakness or a responsibility. You've both seen how messy the system is up close, but from the outside, I see something still worth salvaging. Do you think people like me are wasting time trying to fix it? Or do you think we're essential to saving it? I love this question, and I know, Alistair, you've spoken a lot about this, so what's your optimistic answer to Sam?
- [32:19]
Alastair Campbell
Well, look, Sam, thank you for that. And yes, I mean, I often say to Rory that where I get my hope is talking to young people. I think there are more people like you, Sam, than you might think. I certainly think there are more people like you than the older generations think. And you've got to stay hopeful. In fact, breaking news, I'm probably saying something I shouldn't say here, but I'm involved in a campaign. A former colleague of mine in number 10, Kate Garvey, who went on to do all sorts of amazing things, working on, and she's currently working on the Sustainable Development Goals, which right now feel like they're under pressure. And she is currently putting together a campaign which I am going to be part of and the rest is politics is going to be part of, called Be Hope. And as we work our way up towards the United Nations General assembly, we're going to be trying to find ways of being hopeful. Kate actually wants all the big podcasts in the country and in the States and around the world to have an episode where we just find things to be hopeful about and talk to people that make us hopeful. So I think if you don't, what's the alternative to hope? It's despair. And right now, okay, you turn the television on tonight and what do you see? You see Gaza feels hopeless. You see Russia, Ukraine, it feels hopeless. You see wildfires going across Turkey, Albania, Greece, it feels hopeless. But what do you do if you just say, well, okay, it's hopeless, therefore I'm going to stop trying to do something. So you have to retain that hope that these are problems that can be fixed. And I think there's none of those problems that you look at and you think, well, we haven't. The world hasn't dealt with things like that before. The world has dealt with things like that before. So, no, Sam, you are not wasting your time trying to fix it. You are essential to saving it and keep on keeping on.
- [34:12]
Katy Kay
I agree, Alistair. People like Sam are indispensable. And whenever I get really gloomy about the state of American politics and global politics, I look to younger people because I see so much energy there. And it's hard for them to stay optimistic because of a lot of the things that we've done, particularly around the climate. But I'm so glad that somebody like Sam is still committed and engaged and wanting to be engaged.
- [34:39]
Alastair Campbell
Right, Katy, maybe I should ask you this one. I think it's a very, very, very unfair question. We put out a call for questions and for some weird reason, our producers included a photograph of me. I noted the day when it was taken because it was the day that we called off the 2001 general election because of an outbreak of foot and mouth. So that was 24 years ago. Why are they using 24 year old pictures of Me, Katy, is this made me look the same age as you?
- [35:07]
Katy Kay
I think that's quite good, isn't it? Wouldn't you, Wouldn't you like it if somebody uses a much younger picture?
- [35:12]
Alastair Campbell
No, because I don't look like that.
- [35:13]
Katy Kay
It's kind of nice.
- [35:14]
Alastair Campbell
It's fake news. I've got. I've got no receding hairline, I've got no lines under my eyes, even though I was working 23 hours a day.
- [35:22]
Katy Kay
And you've been moisturizing like Anthony, so you've learned which is good. I like that.
- [35:26]
Alastair Campbell
I've never used moisturizer in my life. Talking of Anthony, the question is this, Martin, Greg, Cathy, how do you keep such massive egos as Alastair and Anthony Scaramucci in their place?
- [35:39]
Katy Kay
Well, first of all, Martin, both Alistair and Anthony are delightful human beings with very well therapized egos who are very happy to let me participate in the conversation and they're pretty easy to manage and I say that in all seriousness, actually. But both of you are people who are men who have worked all your lives with women whose voices have sometimes struggled to be heard and who have taken that on board. And Alistair, partly because of your daughter, I think, and your wife, you know that, well, first of all, you're going to get shit from your daughter if you don't let another woman be heard. So your ego is well tempered. But Martin, I thank you for the question because, yes, in my life it has been on occasion the case that I've had to deal with male egos, rather expanded male egos, apparently. I've been told that men tend to. Tend to think they're 30% better than they actually are.
- [36:33]
Alastair Campbell
I am currently reading, because we're going to be talking to her on the leading soon, Nicola Sturgeon's autobiography, which I'm thoroughly enjoying. But she does make the point that women have to sort of be twice as good as a man to be considered to be half as good. And I think there is something that I, you know, one of the people in, in my life that I think is I was talking earlier about Ghislaine Maxwell and when I worked on the Mirror, Eve Pollard was my editor at the Sunday Mirror and she was a very. She was a just a very, very good woman and a very good person and I liked working for her. I've never had that hang up about thinking that if you work for a woman you're somehow, you know, demeaning yourself is why I don't get the thing in America and frankly we've also had it in the Labour Party. You know, I honestly do think that one of the reasons that was held against Hillary Clinton and Kamal Harris is they're women. And I've got to say, I still think Hillary and Kamala will be better than what we've got right now. Because if you want to talk about massive egos, Martin, don't look to Scarabucci. Look to the guy that fired him after. Look to Scotland, 11 days. Look to the greatest country in the world where currently the greatest ego in the world is planted himself. There we are. Katie has been an absolute joy.
- [37:50]
Katy Kay
That was great. I feel very, you know, honored to be to be invited to the top table included with the grown ups. That was fun. Thank you and thanks everyone for listening.
- [38:00]
Alastair Campbell
Take care.
- [38:03]
David Olusoga
It's David Ulusogga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier.
- [38:10]
Alastair Campbell
If you look at all of the.
- [38:11]
David Olusoga
Accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday the 2nd, the 1st day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there are some people who've argued that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding. It was becoming self sustaining, as it were. John Eveling, who's a great writer and a diarist of this moment, he talks about the sound of the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Pepys and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. I mean, imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges, and above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city, you know, these.
- [39:04]
Alastair Campbell
Are streets you walk.
- [39:05]
David Olusoga
This is a place that's deeply familiar to you. And it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of of landscape you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural.
- [39:18]
Sarah Churchwell
If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:28]
David Olusoga
It's David Ulusoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier. If you look at all of the accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday the 2nd, the 1st day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there are some people who've argued that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding. It was becoming self sustaining, as it were. John Eveling, who's a great writer and a diarist of this moment, he talks about the sound of the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Pepys and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. And we imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges. And above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city you know.
- [40:29]
Alastair Campbell
These are streets you walk.
- [40:30]
David Olusoga
This is a place that's deeply familiar to you, and it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of landscape you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural.
- [40:43]
Sarah Churchwell
If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time. Wherever you get your podcasts.