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The Rest Is Politics
445. Starmer's Deputy PM Quits: The Return of Chaos in British Politics?
00:43:08
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- [00:01]
Alistair Campbell
Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com welcome to arrest is Politics emergency pod. We pressed the button. Why? Because Angela Rayner, the Deputy Prime Minister, has resigned. The ethics advisor has ruled that whilst he thinks that Angela Reyna behaved with integrity and was very open and transparent with him, that nonetheless her handling of her tax affairs did not meet the standards of the ministerial code. And Keir Starmer was in part elected because he said he would strengthen standards. So Rory, initial reaction and then we'll dig a bit deeper.
- [01:01]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, well, I think the sort of big, big FR to remind people is that Aannsha Rayner is a very, very unusual, powerful heavyweight in the labor setup. She was Deputy Prime Minister, she was the Housing Secretary and therefore she was in charge of probably the biggest part of what the government has been promising, which is sorting out the highs in crisis and building hundreds of thousand homes. Maybe not the biggest part, but definitely a central plank of their entire growth strategy. And growth is everything. And obviously you and I, Alistair, have been going off and up to Leeds and other places to talk to housing associations, house builders. A lot of that was about Angela Rayner, Angela Rayner's energy, Angela Rayner pushing ahead with planning. So I think it matters for the Labour Party, it matters for the government, it matters specifically for this drive on housing. But apart from that, she's also a very, very unusual figure in the Labour front bench and a Labour front bench that can seem a little bit cautious, a little bit managerial, a little bit dry. She is this very much more larger than life, relaxed, outspoken, terrific communicator, as we found when we did our interview on leading over to you.
- [02:18]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, yeah, I think we should put that out actually because, I mean lots of people will be, lots of our listeners and viewers will have seen and heard it, but some might not. And it was a pretty remarkable interview, I think and I think it was one of the reasons because she hadn't given many really in depth interviews. Why there was a sense of a changing perception around her. Look, I'll be absolutely frank about it. I really like Angela Rayner. I think her heart's in the right place. I think she's somebody that brings a lot to the Labour Party and up till now to the Labour government. If you look at, you say housing the workers, right, the renters Bill. She's been in charge of the Devolution Bill that was just, I think was being debated just before Parliament went away. It might even have been last week. And you know, she's a serious person, she's a figure in politics the likes of which I think we need more rather than fewer. And ultimately I think this is one of those situations where the personal and the political have collided. I don't know how she kind of manages her private life and how she manages her approach to things like tax and that sort of thing. You get the sense over the last few days, as this is kind of unraveled and as, as the press has kind of piled on and the Telegraph in particular has been really pushing and digging up new details, you kept feeling she was, she was one step away from perhaps being forced out. I actually think that she's got so much kind of reputational strength in the bank, particularly in the Labour Party bank, that maybe when Keir Starmer went out the other day and absolutely won 100% defended her without maybe knowing the full facts, then that is one of the reasons why. But he's been very clear that the ethics advisor, having had the power strengthened and ministers having the ability to self refer that, frankly, if you read the last couple of paragraphs, it's clear that he felt she had to go.
- [04:18]
Rory Stewart
Well, just again, to try to summarize for people what seems to have happened. She bought a house in a flat in Hove, in rather a nice building, 50 miles from London, overlooking the sea, and it was £800,000. And I think this immediately started, probably journalists saying, what's going on here? Because Hove is not her constituency and it's not London where she works. So what's she doing buying a house in Hove? And that may be to do with her personal life, maybe her new partners based in Hove. But that's something immediately that I, as a former politician can completely see where the problem emerges from the start, before you get onto tax. If I had very visibly suddenly bought a home when I was the Member of Parliament for Penrith and the Border, and it was neither in London nor in Cumbria, people would have said, what on earth is this thing? Right? And I would have had to explain and presumably she would have to say, well, obviously I live in my constituency and I work in London. And this thing she would have to say to her constituents, I guess, is not my primary residence. And that of course led journalists then to say, well, wait a sec, we all know that when you buy a house you have to pay much More stamp duty if it's a second home compared to if it's your first home. So did you buy it as a second home or first home? And turns out she bought it effectively as a second home and tempting for her because that would have saved her £40,000 buying the house, which after tax, quite a large chunk of her annual income. And then I think she was probably stuck between a rock and a hard place. And one of the questions which probably she would have been asked is how on earth can you claim this is your primary home if it's not your constituency and it's not London?
- [06:07]
Alistair Campbell
Just to say, by the way, my phone is pinging away with. I mean, I'm hesitant because I don't know, 100%, but what we call usually reliable sources that Lucy Powell and Ian Murray are leaving the Cabinet. So whether this is leading to a wider reshuffle, it would seem that Keir Starmer was planning maybe a bit later, so he's brought that forward as well.
- [06:28]
Rory Stewart
Can I just interrupt that for a second? If that is happening, why would you move Lucy Pelney and Murray on the same day as you've lost Angela Rayner? Because that isn't something in my time in Conservative governments we wouldn't have done. We often lost Amber Rudd to a resignation. We lost Matt Hancock to a resignation, but they didn't reshuff at the same time. I've haven't really heard of that.
- [06:50]
Alistair Campbell
Well, no, I, I, I, I don't. I am not surprised by this because I think he's had that mini, what we call was called the Mini reshuffle within the Downing street operation and I think has been planning a reshuffle of sorts. I don't think a big one. And he certainly, I don't think expected. Well, he didn't expect for Angela Rainer to be leaving. So I suspect he's doing it to try to, you know, frankly, it's a bad day for the Labour Party, it's a bad day for the Labour government and another stage in a few week, days or weeks time, he was going to be doing this. He's probably just get it all out there. But this, this.
- [07:24]
Rory Stewart
Can I just come back, Ken? Because again, I'm trying to answer the logic is the counter argument, not to say to you, come on, Alistair, actually, we could make our reshuffle of Lucy Pell and the Murray into a positive story. Why don't we delay it for a couple of weeks when we got a bit of oxygen and then we can really pitch the new people coming in.
- [07:39]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, but I suspect this won't be the last of it. I suspect this is going on now. And I think the point about people are getting very kind of. I see on social media and some of the media I saw at lunchtime are getting on very excited about, you know, the dep. The who will be the new deputy prime minister. The first thing to say is it's not a kind of. It's not a constitutional position. And I. So. So he doesn't have to have a deputy prime minister. The Labour Party does have to have a deputy leader and the deputy leader has to be elected by the party. So that's going to lead to a leadership election. They'll want to get it out. Not least because the Labour Party doesn't. Isn't sort of rolling with CA at the moment. They'll want to get it over with. Other thought fairly quickly. Whether it can be done by the Congress or not, I don't know. But that's going to create a debate about where the Labour government is, where the Labour Party is. Now the bookmakers are saying they're sort of rolling out the names west street and Yvette Cooper, Pat McFadden, Shabana Mahmood. There will be a very strong feeling, I think, within the Labour Party we're losing a woman and we should have a one. I think that there'll be. But there will be men who will put their name forward. I've got no doubt about that. And then the question that Keir Starmer's going to get as well, will your deputy leader automatically become the deputy prime minister? My advice to him would be the answer to that should be no.
- [09:02]
Rory Stewart
And why is that?
- [09:04]
Alistair Campbell
Because you just don't know what the Labour Party is going to do. And so I think he should just hold fire on that one. And then the broader reshuffle, I mean, of course, one of the factors that led to this being even worse for Angela Rainey than it would have been had it been any other member of the Cabinet, is the fact that she's in charge of housing, as you say. And there's another kind of little thing maybe worth bearing about with the budget coming up and the budget in very, very difficult economic circumstances, where Rachel Reeves has some tough choices, one of the choices that is being floated around is this new property tax to replace stamp duty. Now, again, my advice would be, if you think that is the right thing to do and you were planning anyway, do it and don't change it just because of this. But it's just sort of these Things have a habit of catching you out in all sorts of unintended directions.
- [09:57]
Rory Stewart
So a couple of small things. One is, that's an interesting one, whether there's some special Advisor, possibly number 10, saying, oh, maybe we shouldn't do the stamp duty thing because the Daily Mail or the Telegraph will have a field day making jokes about you've abolished stamp duty cause AANNSHA didn't pay it. But the bigger thing is, I was interested when you were talking about who the runners and riders were for the deputy leader, that the figures that you mentioned were streeting Yvette Kumh.
- [10:22]
Alistair Campbell
I was giving you the bookmakers list.
- [10:24]
Rory Stewart
Right. But those seem to be more on the sort of right wing of the Labour Party, unless I'm wrong. And presumably actually there's a real chance that often the deputy leader might come from the left of the party as a bit of a protest vote against the centre.
- [10:36]
Alistair Campbell
Well, you've got this really interesting thing going on, of course, because there's Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana with their new party. I mean, there's a load of nonsense floating around that Angela Raine is going to join Jeremy Corbyn's party, etc. I think you can forget that, we can forget that.
- [10:51]
Rory Stewart
But that indicates that some people see her as being slightly more on the left than people like West Streeting and that she was the voice, maybe more of the left.
- [10:58]
Alistair Campbell
Well, she was definitely. West Streeting comes from, as we know from when we talked to him on leading. He comes from a pretty working class background. But Andrea Rayner's sort of life story and her background story is so kind of special, as people who will listen to our interview with her would, would discover that I think she does have a. I think she does have a particularly strong working class voice. I think that. And I think that's why a lot of people like her. It's very interesting watching all the comments flooding in. There's a sort of mix of a lot of support for her because they think she's a character, but an awful lot of people saying, listen, if you're in there and in the past you've called for people to resign and you're the housing person and you don'. Pay tax properly and you're a bit careless about it, then you know, it's on your own head.
- [11:41]
Rory Stewart
Okay, can I just. I want to get back to that in a second because I think it's a really interesting question about her resignation. But before we get onto that, just help me understand, or listeners understand a Little bit more about the sort of left right splits within the Labour Party because it's not just her class background, it's also that there's a sense that Keir Starmer represents more of a kind of Blairite, more right wing of the Labour Party vision. Is that right? And obviously that's why Corbyn and Corbyn and Zara Sultana would say that, wouldn't they? I mean, that's why they, they left and set off and there's been fights about welfare fights. So the Corbyn faction would see, would see Starmer as being more on the right, right?
- [12:22]
Alistair Campbell
Oh, well, they do. But of course, I think one of the reasons why, you know, the, the, the, one of the reasons why they perhaps dislike Kir as much as they do and maybe even more than Tony's, because Tony was always that out there modernizing new Labour person. Whereas of course, what a lot of the Corbynistas say is that to become leader, Kier put out a pretty left wing perspective which he since changed. And I think, you know, I think to be frank, a lot of the anger that Corbyn and Zara Sultana direct towards Kir is actually as much about Gaza as anything else. And they're feeling that he's not been strong enough against Israel. Look, I'd be very surprised, although they'll think about it carefully. But the Corbyn having gone, you still got this sort of group of MPs, John McDonnell, Richard Bergen, the people that are very much in that Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, whether they feel that they will have to put somebody up for the deputy leadership. But the thing is, it's quite a high hurdle you have to get, I think with the current mathematics is about. You're going to need about 80 MPs to want to back you. That was a move that was made a while back to stop kind of, you know, fringe candidates putting their names forward. But this will definitely be a way by which we're going to see tested the real politics of the new parliamentary Labour Party. And just one final point, Ray. I also wonder whether on this reshuffle, if he is going to be doing something a bit bigger, I wonder whether he won't be. Not necessarily at cabinet level, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of the new younger MPs being brought into further down the ranks, because I think there are some really good ones that the public frankly just don't even know about.
- [14:13]
Rory Stewart
Just, again, I mean, this is maybe too much inside baseball, but Michael Foot was the deputy leader of the Labour party in the 70s. And then when Foote came into power, it was Dennis Healy, I guess, then Roy Hattersley, Margaret Beckett, John Prescott, who on the surface might seem like a little bit of a sort of version of Angela Rayner in terms of his role within the body. But is what I'm seeing with some of these names that at some times the deputy leader has been used to balance the leader and bring in a slightly different wing of the party, a.
- [14:46]
Alistair Campbell
Different tone of voice and not just the party, but also the public. I mean, one of. Look, you know, I think that John Prescott, as I've said to you many times before, I think was a really good guy. That's not a universal opinion for those who work with John. But I liked, I always got on very well with John and it wasn't just that he represented, he would, you know, he coined the phrase about New Labour being traditional values in a modern setting. Well, John was very much the guy about the traditional values and Tony was very much the guy about the modern setting and that kind of worked together. And I do think with Angela, if you think about some of the things that people say about Keira, you know, a bit technocratic, not a kind of natural communicator. You can't see him sort of, you know, hanging out on the sofa and loose women really sort of opening up about his, about himself. That's all the stuff that Andreina does do and has done and does it very, very well. So I think there is a sense of them being a team. Look, they've had their ups and downs. There was a period, if you remember, when there was all sorts of briefing against Andrew and, you know, was she, was she going to get the boot and all this sort of stuff and, but no, I think they've, I think they've come to a pretty good modus operandi. And I think we' read Keir's letter and it's quite, I don't think I've ever seen a handwritten resignation acceptance letter and, you know, having, having drafted a few in my time. But I, I, I, I thought there was, that was a sort of sense of genuine sadness and fondness for her. And I think within it, within wasn't sort of basically saying, go away and serve your punishment and come back, but I could see Angela Rainer coming back into government at the time. That's why I was a little bit surprised that she, that she also decided to resign.
- [16:27]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, because many people thought she could remain as deputy leader of the Labour Party and just leave her ministerial position. It's become increasingly common for people to come back after resignations and I don't know how common that was. I mean, of course, Peter Mandelson famously would resign and come back a couple of times, but in the old days, if you go back to Profumo and things, once people resigned, that was usually the end. They didn't return. But when I was in office, it became more and more common. So, for example, people maybe remember Amber Rudd, who was the Home Secretary, resigned over the Windrush affair and then they very much felt they owed her and they brought her back a few months later in a reshuffle. Towards the end of that year, when Matt Hancock resigned, he certainly thought, you remember, he resigned for breaking Covid. And who can forget being caught on camera in his office? His expectation, I think, is that Boris Johnson was going to bring him back again and it didn't happen. But certainly during my 10 or so years in the convention was, and this probably would apply to Aannsha Rayner, that unless what she'd done was very extreme. I mean, another example would be Robert Jenrick went. Now, I can't quite remember whether he technically resigned or was fired, but there was a scandal to do with him sitting next to Richard Desmond, the publisher of Juicy magazines and owner of newspapers and. And Tower Blocks. And then, of course, he came back and now he's a candidate for leadership.
- [17:57]
Alistair Campbell
I don't think the resignation offense was sitting next to him. It was the financial discussions that thereby ensued. I think just talking of the Tories, I think it's interesting to sort of put this in this bigger picture of what else is going on in politics. So the news today was probably going to be much more focused on Nigel Farage Reform Conference. You know, it seems to me the entire mass ranks of the British media and the dozens of BBC correspondents are all reporting on Angela Rayner, it seems to me, from Birmingham, because they're up for Nigel Farage. Nigel Farage. This is what we discussed the other day being ultimately about news, actually brought his speech forward by three hours so that he could give his first commentary on Angela Rayner. And meanwhile, Kemi Badenok, the leader of the Tory Party, she put out a statement. I thought both of them kind of misread things a bit, Farage, because it just plays into this idea that he's actually just a commentator and a media guy rather than a kind of potential leader of the country, who seemed to me had nothing to say about the future of the country. Apart from the fact I gave up when he. When he introduced Nadine Dorries as the great sort of, you know, story of the day.
- [19:09]
Rory Stewart
The great reveal.
- [19:10]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, exactly.
- [19:11]
Rory Stewart
And the reveal, just for listeners who've not been following the ins and outs, this is Nadine Dorris, who was a Conservative mp, great friend of Boris Johnson, right wing. The Tory Party has now announced that she's joining Reform, to absolutely nobody's surprise.
- [19:24]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. And in his introduction, sort of bigging her up, not only was she a working class woman made good and a great author, but she'd also been on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here and thereby made that wonderful sort of link between celebrity and politics, which, of course you. And I think is what is wrong with our politics, not what's right. But then Kemi Badenoch, she's not very good at tone, is she? I mean, she was. It was a really kind of, sort of quite nasty, very aggressive. And then onto where I would have gone straight away onto, you know, and the government's not doing a very good job on this. But I. Because I actually, I actually do think there's. That when somebody like Angela Rayner goes, yes, there's loads of people just think, yeah, big public figure, she didn't pay a tax, gets everything she deserves. But then I think there's something she writes in the. In her, her resignation letter, and I believe this, and I've spoken to a little bit about it in the past, is that, you know, she does have a very complicated family situation and one of her children who's, you know, got really serious disabilities and so forth, and she, you know, and I saw as well that somebody's graffiti on her house. The one, the one in Hove and all, it's all this sort of stuff. So she actually uses the word unbearable, that the pressure on her family was becoming unbearable. Now, some people say, oh, well, you know, you deserve what you get. But I was at an event yesterday, I know you get this all the time as well, where, where people, people were saying, you know, they were actually, it's quite an interesting debate. The thing was, do we get the politicians we deserve? Because. And I did the thing I always do, I asked this audience about 200 people, how many of you have ever thought about going to politics? Not one single person put their hand up. So I think that is another thing that the debate will go to, that.
- [21:09]
Rory Stewart
Just on this, I just think, really important issue, isn't it? Because I think ever since we started the podcast and you read a draft of my book, you've always felt that I'm a bit down on politics. And I think in my defense, I would say that actually politics has changed since you were in. And that actually the experience of being a member of Parliament, particularly of being a woman, is really, really unpleasant. I mean, really, really unpleasant. And social media is a great deal of that. But just the sort of, but also the sort of general sense of. I mean, when you started covering politics, of course there's a big tradition of the British mocking politicians and it's a good thing. And Spitting Image was out there and everyone thought they were ridiculous. But the number of people in opinion polls showing absolute contempt, rage, politics has broken, they're all liars, etc, has got so extreme now. And it's created an atmosphere where, you know, day in, day out, you're basically being treated all the time as though you're an incompetent criminal. You're being given absolutely no credit for what you've done. I mean, one of the amazing things is whenever we interview one of these, my former colleagues from the Conservative cabinets, could be Satya Javit, could be Jeremy Hunt, people will say, oh, they weren't as bad as I thought they were.
- [22:31]
Alistair Campbell
Quite nice guy.
- [22:33]
Rory Stewart
Quite a nice guy, yeah, yeah. But that's because they have been all. They've seen them for kind of 15 years is so much abuse that the discovery that they're actually remotely human are actually able to speak.
- [22:46]
Alistair Campbell
You see that. That's why in an ideal world, I think that Ed Davies response to this would maybe register more than it than it has done. Ed Davy has basically been very sympathetic because he said, I really understand how difficult it is when you're, you're trying to be a public person, run a public life in a very high profile job while you're caring for a member of your family who's got really, really, you know, huge needs. And look, I do think there's something about, you know, I think, I think the look, to be honest with you Frank, I think it's one of the reasons that people like our podcast is we try not to talk to each other like that. And although one or two of these politicians can trigger me to go back into the sort of rage mode, in the main, try to talk about politicians like that as well, try to understand their motivations ra rather than just question them all the time. But I think the politics of this, I think politicians ought to just sort of maybe have a think about whether this is where they all want to go. Maybe some of them do, but I Don't think most of them do.
- [23:48]
Rory Stewart
And also, I mean, there is of course this horrible irony which she's got caught in which she was absolutely brutal to Jeremy Hunt on his stamp duty on buying houses, which I at the time thought was unnecessary and unfair. What he'd done was perfectly legal and within the rules. And she went on this massive attack. So if they did it to each other less, they'd get it back less. I never did that. I mean, in 10 years in politics, I don't think you can find an example of me ever going after people in that kind of way. So what did you have to hide?
- [24:16]
Alistair Campbell
What did you have to hide? What were you worried about coming out?
- [24:19]
Rory Stewart
Probably you're absolutely right. I must have been half conscious that if I did this to other people, they might eventually end up doing it.
- [24:24]
Alistair Campbell
We, we had exactly the same, the same thing back in the, in, in the mid-90s when we had the whole back to basics thing where John Major makes a speech, let's go back to basics. He wasn't talking about let's stop sort of, you know, having off with our secretaries, but he was, but that was where the media took it and that's where we sort of followed a bit. I don't think we overdid it. But, but Tony used to really worry about that. He said, listen, let the media do that stuff, but let's not pile in too much because, you know, let's be frank, we know there are people on our side, etc. Etc. Interesting though. There's a really interesting question though here from somebody called G, Gary B. I imagine it's, I imagine it's Gary Barlow. How, how do we start to hold right wing MPs to account for their actions when they simply don't care, have no ethics or standards? It's not a level playing field. So you mentioned Jeremy Hunt. I mean, the media did not go after Jeremy Hunt. Labor might have tried to get it up in lights because it was like, you know, rich member of cabinet makes himself richer. Even if we hear within the rule. I can't remember.
- [25:27]
Rory Stewart
In defense, he didn't do anything as bad as anchor.
- [25:29]
Alistair Campbell
Right?
- [25:30]
Rory Stewart
So I think it's, it's the, it's the like for like. That's the, it's the interesting comparison.
- [25:33]
Alistair Campbell
What did he do, though? What did he do?
- [25:35]
Rory Stewart
No, she was just saying that there's a rule for property developers and people who own a lot of houses where I think they pay less in tax and because he had a company buying 10 houses, he paid less in tax.
- [25:47]
Alistair Campbell
Right.
- [25:47]
Rory Stewart
But was he. No suggestion of impropriety? Absolutely no suggestion that he in any way broke any rules.
- [25:53]
Alistair Campbell
But I do think that there is. There is a massive double standard. So there's a story in the papers today that Nigel Farage has got one of these sort of private service companies into which he pours all his speaking agency stuff and he's. And his GB news stuff and all the rest of it and that, let's be absolutely frank, because I was advised I could do that when I left Downing Street. Why don't you do this? No, I don't want to do that because I think it's a bit dodgy. So I didn't. And it's cost us a lot of money down the years because we paid, you know, pretty high tax rates now, so. But he doesn't even get asked about it. So there is a total double standard.
- [26:28]
Rory Stewart
So salt. The thing is, it doesn't need to be a level playing field. Labour just needs to follow the damn rules and be squeaky clean. And that is something I think is important, which is that I sensed, as a politician, I think most of us did, that we would be under a spotlight and held to very, very high standards, and therefore we couldn't be too cute. Every single time I did something, obviously I put it through a Daily Mail test and I tried to check and one time I was flown back, somebody paid for my plane ticket. I was very scrupulous about repaying it so I wouldn't get an underset, which is why I got very annoyed with people like Boris Johnson taking all these freebies and stuff and why I never took pay trips. But it's not just me. Ed Miliband was much better than me. He, during the expenses scandal, came out as the sort of expenses saint. And why was that? Presumably because he really felt. Or my great hero, the Beast of Bolsover, Dennis Skinner famous. He wouldn't take a cup of coffee from a journalist. So there is. It's not that you can't.
- [27:34]
Alistair Campbell
I think I got Dennis a cup of coffee every now and then. I'll settle up later. Oh, no, it's free, you know, whatever.
- [27:43]
Rory Stewart
Meanwhile, Nigel Farage, I see, is advertising gold bullion. You can see these huge, big sides that you can buy. Nigel's gold.
- [27:50]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, Yeah. I couldn't say we don't want to talk about him too much today because this is a big day, but I. I didn't. I've got to say, I wasn't impressed by his speech. I know the people in there Would just sort. This is wonderful. It's Nigel Farage, etc. But as this I I the point about double standards, though, I think that the more what it seems to me, I was talking to somebody the day a minister who said he felt one of the, the problems the government's got at the moment is that our entire system is designed for. Here's the government in Parliament, here's the opposition, and that's where the big battle goes. Okay. But at the moment, actually, Kemi Badenot gets her six questions at Prime Minister's questions, but actually both the Conservatives and Labour are kind of directing their attention over there to this little gaggle of four MPs who occasionally turn up. Now, that being the case, I think that I sense with Farage that he's in danger of overreaching and that once the scrutiny does pile on. So, for example, I didn't listen to all, but Fiona told me that Richard Tice was on the Today program this morning. She just said, that guy is just terrible. Why can't Labour just take him apart? He's terrible. He talks absolute rubbish. He leaves lines open left, right and center. So I think that there's got to be a kind of upping of the game against reform. And what you do with the Troys, I don't know because they're obviously. I mean, I was at the cricket yesterday. I had my one day's holiday, my one day off of the year, Rory. No work at all. I went to the cricket and. Yeah.
- [29:18]
Rory Stewart
And found another good interview for leading, hopefully from one of the celebrity guests, the cricket.
- [29:22]
Alistair Campbell
Oh, we're not allowed to talk about that. We did have a former interview, leading interviewee in the next box, which was Theresa May, the former Prime Minister. But Chris Evans of the, of the Telegraph, editor of the Telegraph, was there and, and it's quite interesting talking to him because he was, he was sort of, he was explaining to me how it used to be that these Tories were never, they were never off the phone, sort of badgering the Telegraph and getting them to do this and having ideas and wanting to write stuff and that. And he basically said, apart from generate, nobody, but nobody seems to bother with us anymore. It's almost like they've given up.
- [29:54]
Rory Stewart
Yeah.
- [29:54]
Alistair Campbell
Farage has not given up.
- [29:56]
Rory Stewart
So one of the reasons that I think you're seeing Kemi Badenoch responding in this slightly unbalanced fashion is she's on tilt. She's. Every week she is going through people and presumably most of our listeners may not be reading the Mail on the Telegraph. But my goodness, the abuse that she's getting every week from what should be her natural supporters is unbelievable, really. So if you look at yesterday's Mail and Telegraph, there's a big article by Quentin Letts saying she completely failed to land any blows on Angela Rayner. She just missed the point. Then there's huge articles in the Telegraph quoting senior Tories in the party saying she's useless, she's got to go. Then you've got Robert Shrims, even in the FT writing articles saying Kemi Badenox simply hasn't managed to produce a vision, she hasn't got any sense where she's going. So she's coming out of these battles in Premises questions, where every time she's getting really poor reviews from her colleagues in the right wing press and she's lurching around. So on Wednesday she tries to think, I'm going to be statesmanlike and focus on Labour's competence on the economy. And then everyone says, well, you missed an open goal on Azure Reina. So now she goes out Nata Rayner. So I think that's one of the problems there. Listen, there's a point from Afon Kummer here. Fundamentally, any fiddling just reminds the public that MPs seem wealthier than the average person. I think that is important to understand here, which is that there is a huge amount of resentment and it doesn't really matter whether you are John Prescott who came from quite a modest background, or Angela Rayner, who came from a very, very poor background. The delight with which the public embraces the idea that they've all got their snouts in the trough, they're all richer than us. Where the hell did she get the money from for that house is really intense, isn't it? Yeah, but I guess has always been like that. Or is it getting worse?
- [31:50]
Alistair Campbell
No, I think people think that if you're a very, very poorly paid member of the public doing a kind of minimum wage job, then you think MPs are very, very well paid and they get allowances. And of course, don't forget, we've still got the kind of whole expenses scandal. You mentioned Ed Miliband there, but I bet that's the first time our listeners have known that story. Dennis Skinner was another one who had no trouble with his expenses because he really didn't. Didn't claim much. Whereas, you know, lots and lots and lots of MPs, some went to prison. So I. And then. And yet then we were talking today about. About the government in Singapore and their ministers get over a million dollars a year. And, and Singaporeans seem to like the fact that they have really clever, smart people running the country. I've got to read this one out. Francesca Melillo Villis, which sounds like. It's an amazing name, Francesca Melillo Villis. But I wonder if it's actually Peter Mandelson under a false name because it says Peter Mandelson is one of the finest politicians in the uk. He's like our Mario Draghi. They should lead Europe together. Thank you, Francesca. No, I know. That's real. That's a real. That's a real.
- [33:04]
Rory Stewart
Mandelson and Mario Draghi is a great combination. Well, that brings us to a more serious point actually, for a second. So people who aren't absolutely on top of this. Mario Draghi is very much, and as is Peter Mandelson, the epitome of the sort of 90s technocratic, neoliberal, economic centrist, consensus, European Commission, this kind of vision of the world. And actually my suspicion is that the problem that Keir Starmer faces, if we move to the kind of big picture here, as you were suggesting at the beginning, is that Angela Reyna is exactly what his government is lacking. It feels very, very managerial. It feels very cautious. It feels like, and I felt this when we were interviewing Bridget Phillipson and when we were interviewing Rachel Reeves, that they fundamentally, at some level just believe that all they needed to do was get rid of the Tories, bring in people who are good hearted and competent and everything would be fine. And we're not in that age, we're in an age of populism where people want very bold ideas, they want very authentic communication, they want much bigger personalities. And she was almost the only person that can provide that because I'm afraid, for all their merits, Rachel Reeves and Yvette Cooper are not going to provide that for us.
- [34:20]
Alistair Campbell
Alex Deacon here. Keir should be worried about the Greens politically with the locals elections soon. Bringing a left winger as his deputy might help ignite the base a little. Perhaps a soft. I think that means soft left winger. Soft left winger like Helen Hayes, dip tube. Our politics have become American. Complete joke. I sort of thought that bit when I saw Farage coming onto the stage. All these sort of, sort of fireworks, works going off and all that, all that sort of stuff. There is the other, the story that may happen, of course, which is on the reign of stamp duties, of course, whether, whether she ends up being fined as well by hmrc, which again will, will take that.
- [34:58]
Rory Stewart
It's also, I think, I mean, she. I'm Afraid there is a strong chance she will because this is, this thing that she did is something that almost anybody buying a second home is tempted to do, do because it makes a huge difference if you can claim that the home that you're buying is your primary residence or any secondary residence. And I think the taxman is very, very aware that they are losing many, many millions of pounds a year through other people doing this. So making an example of her hitting this hard, I think has huge implications for the way in which they manage this stuff across country because it's very difficult to prove, you know, what is your first home, what's your second home. And obviously the lawyer thought she could get away with it. Well, that's what she says.
- [35:39]
Alistair Campbell
There's a commenter here or you're agreeing with you. H. Vetsa vesta. Ms. Rayner seemed to be the human face of this cabinet. Now it's all robots, robots, the trance lab. Angela will be back one day, potentially as Prime Minister. Interesting perspective here. Simon Goodwin. This story explodes the myth that this is a meritocratic society. The right wing media and politicians could not cope with a working class woman made good. Meanwhile, the toffs get a free pass. There's a little, there is something there, I think, I think a lot of the commentary about Angela Rayner has been about, about her accent, about the way she dresses, about the sort of, you know, almost like she sort of overdoes the telling of the, of the story and you know, I, that's one reason why I do feel, I mean still the most working class cabinet we've ever had, if you define it by sort of education, where they went to school but, but I think it's a real, real shame that she's gone.
- [36:34]
Rory Stewart
Final thing then, if Keir Starmer is genuinely doing a reshuffle. Alistair here is my attempt to disagree agreeably before we wrap this up, which is, I think he's making a big mistake wrapping it in to the story around Angela Rayner. He thinks by doing so he can take the pressure off the Angela Raina story. But I think he's losing a huge opportunity. This is the first major reshuffle that he's done since he's been Prime Minister. He has been an underwhelming Prime Minister. His net popularity rating is terrible. Growth is not going the way that he wanted. Debt is not going the way that he wanted. He desperately needs an opportunity to reset and demonstrate to the public that it's going to be different, that he gets it, he gets that people think Britain has broken that politics broken, the economy broke, and that it needs radical reform. And the chance to do it, it is to take a deep breath and do a real day around the reshuffle, explaining what that reshuffle is and explaining how that achieves judges.
- [37:31]
Alistair Campbell
No, I. I think these reshuffles get hundreds of thousands. If. Can I just say, if the Today program phone me one more time, I will bloody well shoot them and I'll never come on their program again. They should know that Rory and I are doing a live. Okay, so, Kirsty, that's the fifth bloody call and I'm fed up with it. Right, sorry about that, but let me. Rory, millions of words, hundreds of thousands of words get written about reshuffles, and ultimately they don't matter. What matters is the direction of the government. The government has had a big knock today, and it's, you know, it'll take a little while to get over it. Conference and the budget. To my mind, the Labour Party Conference and the budget. If the Labour government has not by then got a very clear track and a very clear strategy and confidence that they're going to. Is going to work, then I think they've got real, real problems. By the way, breaking news and, God, I hope this one's right. But my sources have been proved right every step of the way so far. Yvette Cooper out.
- [38:25]
Rory Stewart
Yvette Cooper out. Well, that is really big news, and maybe bigger news than Angela Rayner replaced by Shabana Mahmoud. Okay, well, maybe. Well, that's the more interesting question, whether that's inspiring. But Yvette Cooper's right there in the question of the boats, migration, Home Office, police, arrest of people. She's right in the center of the culture war. And the question, I guess there is, did she have the clear values, the clear communication style to navigate the most difficult issue in British politics? I mean, she is what Farage is after, isn't it? That's what he's doing. He's doing immigration, freedom of speech, police arrest. It's all Home Office stuff. So you need someone at the heart of the Home Office who can. Can really tell that story. You need a David Blunkett figure, don't you?
- [39:11]
Alistair Campbell
I've just had somebody else say, more rage, please.
- [39:15]
Rory Stewart
More rage, please. Okay, very good. Okay.
- [39:19]
Alistair Campbell
Right, let's have one quick one each. Rory.
- [39:23]
Rory Stewart
Final one. Sam. This is an absolute collapse. Interesting. I mean, I'm a bit worried about that. I'm a bit worried that if you let this story get away from itself and get muddled up on the Reshuffle. And people are not very excited by. If it happens, Shabana Mahmoud replacing Yvette Cooper, then actually the whole thing weakens Starmer rather than strength.
- [39:42]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, but Rory, people don't. When people don't get excited about reshuffles, when's the last time they got excited? Look, the political class got very, very, very excited this morning. Oh, Angela. Rayna's out. And I'm not saying. Listen, it's a big story. I'm not saying not. And it's. And it's bad for the government. There's no way around that. But I. I think the idea that you get sort of excited about reshuffles, what. What people want from their government is a government that makes the country better and delivers on the things it said it would. I guess if the Yvette Cooper out is true and apologies to her if it's not, and she's just sort of jumped out of her skid and somebody's gone into your office and said, alice Campbell says you'd be sad if that isn't. If that is right, then I guess that is Keir Starmer, as you say, saying, look, this. This is the big thing that we set our stall out on. Smash the Gangs, Etc. It's not going as I want it to I. That I think Shabana Moomooed injustice has done a good job. Let's see if she can do this.
- [40:40]
Rory Stewart
Okay. Well, Alistair, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Resist the Today program.
- [40:46]
Alistair Campbell
And I mean, they should know.
- [40:49]
Rory Stewart
Don't do the program. We've said. What have you got to say, Alistair, that you've not shared with us and the wonderful Restless Politics team that are listening to you? Keep it exclusive. Thank you all very much for listening.
- [41:02]
Alistair Campbell
Bye. Bye.
- [41:02]
Rory Stewart
Bye bye. Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4L jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.
- [41:18]
Alistair Campbell
Oh, come on.
- [41:19]
Rory Stewart
They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [41:28]
Alistair Campbell
Whatever.
- [41:30]
Rory Stewart
You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.
- [41:37]
Alistair Campbell
Hey, it's Anthony Scaramucci from the Rest Is Politics Us. If you're looking for something to play next, Katty K. And I just launched a new miniseries about Ronald Reagan. We're digging into the real Reagan story, the rise, the drama, how his world has been turned upside down in the age of Trump.
- [41:56]
Rory Stewart
We trace his rise from Hollywood to the White House, from his role in ending the Cold War to reviving the economy. And we also confront those scandals, Iran Contra, his assassination attempt, and his failure around the AIDS epidemic.
- [42:09]
Alistair Campbell
Just search the rest of Politics us wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a clip from the series. Ronald Reagan knew how to go big and go bold.
- [42:18]
Rory Stewart
He truly was the great communicator. Together we're going to do what has to be done. He regrounded the GOP and conservative principles, free markets, small government, and an unshakable faith in American exceptionalism.
- [42:31]
Alistair Campbell
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Ronald Reagan shook the country. People keep looking to government for the.
- [42:41]
Rory Stewart
Answer, and government's the problem.
- [42:42]
Alistair Campbell
President Reagan was shot in the chest.
- [42:44]
Rory Stewart
By a gunman outside.
- [42:47]
Alistair Campbell
We did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages. Uncomfortable as it is to admit, the 40th president inadvertently prepared the ground for the 45th. It's not Reagan's party anymore. Donald Trump destroyed Ronald Reagan.
- [43:01]
Rory Stewart
I thought he was great.
- [43:02]
Alistair Campbell
His style, his attitude. But not great on trade. Will we be the party of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism? Only, only one man has the proven experience we need. Together, we'll make America great again. Thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed that clip.
- [43:24]
Rory Stewart
To hear the full series, just search. The rest is Politics US.