The Rest Is Politics – Episode 451: "Is Trump Destroying the UN?"

Release Date: September 23, 2025
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart

Episode Overview

This episode, timed with the opening of the UN General Assembly, sees Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart dissect the current and future state of the United Nations, cast through the lens of Donald Trump's antagonism towards multilateralism and global institutions. The discussion connects dwindling American support for the UN, the shifting landscape of Palestinian state recognition, the potential consequences for global peacemaking, and what these trends mean for Britain and the Western liberal order. The second half turns to domestic British politics: Ed Davey and the Lib Dems’ identity crisis, Farage’s hardline immigration proposals, and broader reflections on constitutional reform.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. UN at 80: A Bleak Anniversary

[02:26–04:23]

• 80th UN General Assembly feels subdued: Despite being a significant anniversary, there is “no sense of jubilee, no celebration” due to multiple crises and lack of US enthusiasm.
• Founding Themes:
  • Human Rights & Universal Values: Once epitomized by interventions in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Bosnia, and Clinton’s vision of "a world…heading towards human rights, democracy, and peace" (Alastair, 03:01).
  • Platform for Smaller Nations: Especially post-colonial states, embodied by figures like U Thant, gaining a global voice.
• Both visions are under unprecedented strain, due to American disengagement and major power standoffs.

“I think both those themes are now under huge strain today.”
— Alastair Campbell [03:49]

2. US Funding Cuts & Political Hostility

[04:23–06:24]

• Security Council Structure: Five permanent members (US, UK, France, Russia, China) hold veto power; ten rotating members add some influence.
• Trump’s First and Second Terms: Open hostility to the UN, aggressive funding cuts, disdain for international law.
• China and Russia’s Role: Sometimes stepping into diplomatic gaps left by the US, but not covering financial shortfalls.

"The first term, Trump was pretty opposed to the United Nations, doesn't like international organizations. And this time the funding cuts have been huge."
— Rory Stewart [05:00]

• Human Impact: US contributions covered 40–50% of key agencies’ budgets (e.g., WFP, UNICEF, UNHCR). Cutbacks mean millions lose access to basic humanitarian aid.

3. UN Deadlock Over Gaza and Palestine Recognition

[06:24–09:18]

• Diplomatic Stalemate: Security Council vote on Gaza—14 to 1, with the US alone blocking progress.
• Palestine Issue Front and Centre: Debates over recognizing Palestine as a state are now taking centre stage at the UN, with almost all major powers except the US in support.
• US Blocking Tactics: Denial of visas to Palestinian delegates (including Mahmoud Abbas), the threat of sanctions on the International Criminal Court, and undermining of international criminal justice mechanisms.

“Should we not begin to think about the UN moving out of the US if the US is no longer prepared to play its role?”
— Alastair Campbell [11:09]

4. Who Hosts the UN? Should It Move?

[11:34–13:01]

• Debate on whether the UN should be relocated (Geneva, Canada, Switzerland), but consensus: It’s unlikely while the US wields such institutional power and the veto over practical arrangements like visas.

5. Future of the UN: Multilateralism and Peacemaking

[13:01–16:38]

• Mini-Multilateralism: A model in which clusters of like-minded states (Brazil, India, Singapore, Ghana, the Caribbean) could exert new influence.
• Loss of Peacemaking Identity: Book recommendation—Peacemaker by Thant Myint-U (grandson of U Thant)—argues the UN must reclaim its traditional peacemaking role, not just humanitarian work.
• Both hosts agree the Secretary General’s position is fundamentally limited by major power politics, especially US preferences.

6. Trump’s America and the Global Order

[17:04–20:47]

• Breaking the Liberal Consensus:
  • Campbell: “Now suddenly people like me are much more open to Brazil, India joining the UN, European Union...reimagining the whole thing.”
• Rising Distrust in American Leadership:
  • Rory’s experience at an international festival: When asked which is the “greatest threat to global stability, USA or China?”, the audience overwhelmingly chose the US ([18:27]).
  • Mike Pompeo’s reaction: “They all watch the BBC and CNN,” downplaying global concerns.
• Pompeo Interview Teaser: Pompeo bluntly claims “there is never going to be a Palestinian state” ([11:34]), underscoring the current US stance.

7. Recognition of Palestine: Symbolism vs. Substance

[21:42–25:24]

• Why Recognition Matters:
  • “Israel is never going to be secure unless Palestinians have freedom. And Palestinians are never going to have freedom unless Israel is secure.”
    — Rory Stewart [21:51]
  • UK, France, Portugal, Australia, and others’ recognition of Palestine seen as a crucial step—even if immediate effects are limited, it lays groundwork for future negotiations.
• Israeli Response: Netanyahu’s government and Israeli spokespeople are furious, labelling the move as a “reward to Hamas”; Israel increasingly at risk of “pariah” status ([25:24]).

8. Netanyahu, Trump, and the ‘Blank Check’ Phenomenon

[26:38–29:54]

• Netanyahu and Putin both engaging in provocative actions, possibly to bolster strongman images at home.
• As long as Trump provides unconditional backing, Israel’s government feels empowered against international opinion—even pursuing policies that the Israeli military sees as counterproductive.

9. Art Amidst Conflict: A Note of Hope

[29:54–30:39]

• Highlighting Gazan artist Ahmed Mohana, who paints on World Food Programme boxes due to material shortages. Exhibition touring Europe—an emblem of resilience and creativity in Gaza.

10. UK Politics: Lib Dem Identity & Farage's Immigration Offensive

[33:17–43:20]

• Lib Dems’ Struggles for Relevance:
  • Ed Davey (Lib Dem leader) positioning as a champion of centre-ground values and explicitly anti-Trump, anti-Farage ([34:09]).
  • Media bias: Lib Dems sidelined, Reform and Farage dominate coverage—even when policies are more radical.
• Farage’s Immigration Proposals:
  • Dale’s plan to force all migrants with permanent residency to reapply, risking deportation for thousands integrated into NHS and care sector.
• Media Critique:
  • “Nigel Farage...a guy with four MPs...got wall to wall coverage day and night. The Lib Dems, the complaint they make...”
    — Alastair Campbell [38:21]
• Clever Lib Dem Strategy:
  • Davey’s speech: Repeated refrain tying Farage to Trump—"That is Trump’s America, do not let it become Farage’s Britain" ([40:25]).
  • Focus on bread-and-butter issues but anchoring values in the internationalist, anti-populist tradition.

11. Labour, Coalition Politics, and the Rise of Reform

[43:20–47:35]

• Strategic Dilemmas:
  • With the rise of Reform, Labour and Lib Dems may need to form tactical alliances, even if a formal coalition is ruled out.
  • The center-right of the Conservative party has fragmented, with senior ex-Tories quitting for Reform—the party left “hollowed out.”
• First-Past-the-Post & Misfit Multi-party System:
  • Growing consensus among hosts for electoral reform; call for a constitutional convention.

12. The Need for Cross-Party Collaboration and Honest Public Debate

[47:35–51:39]

• Citizens’ Assemblies Proposal:
  • Rory suggests Labour be honest about “intractable” policy challenges (e.g., immigration, adult social care), bringing public into deliberation through citizens’ assemblies—breaking from tribal politics.
• Potential for Long-term Solutions:
  • Cross-party work on housing, welfare, social care would build credibility and investment, rather than short-term, party-line fixes.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump's UN Legacy:

  "Donald Trump is deliberately trying to undermine the United Nations politically, financially, in every other way."
  — Rory Stewart [00:00; 11:34]

• On Humanitarian Consequences:

  "You lose 50% of your funding. That isn’t just all the UN staff losing their jobs... It’s the recipients. It’s the people who would be receiving the tents, the emergency food, the shelter, the child protection."
  — Alastair Campbell [05:30]

• On UN Political Paralysis:

  "We had a vote last week on Gaza—vote on the Security Council was 14 to 1 and the 1 was the United States."
  — Rory Stewart [16:38]

• On American Disengagement:

  "Now suddenly people like me are much more open to Brazil, India joining the UN, European Union...reimagining the whole thing. Because...it was created by the victors of WWII...in a liberal universal model...and we've now entered a world where Trump is so open about the fact that he rejects all of that."
  — Alastair Campbell [17:04]

• On the Future of Palestinian Statehood:

  "Israel is never going to be secure unless Palestinians have freedom. And Palestinians are never going to have freedom unless Israel is secure."
  — Rory Stewart [21:51]

• On the Lib Dems and Farage:

  "That is Trump's America, do not let it become Farage’s Britain."
  — Ed Davey (speech, paraphrased/quoted by hosts; multiple times from [40:25] onward)

Important Timestamps

• [00:18] – Opening critique of Trump’s open disregard for international law and UN ideals.
• [02:26] – History and founding purpose of the UN; what has changed.
• [05:30] – The humanitarian fallout of US funding cuts.
• [09:18] – Latest on Palestine delegation visa bans at the UN.
• [11:09–13:01] – Institutional debate: Should the UN relocate out of New York?
• [16:38] – Recounting the most recent UN Security Council vote on Gaza.
• [18:27] – Rory’s telling question to audiences about global stability threats.
• [21:51] – Rory’s framing of the Israeli-Palestinian dilemma and why recognition matters.
• [26:38] – Analysis of Netanyahu’s and Putin’s motivations for brinkmanship.
• [34:09–43:20] – Lib Dems’ challenges and Farage’s radical immigration policy; breakdown of political media dynamics.
• [47:35–51:39] – Discussion of citizens' assemblies, cross-party cooperation, and long-term policymaking.

Conclusion

This episode delivers a sweeping, deeply informed tour of how Trump’s America is remaking the international order, starting from the hollowing out of the United Nations and culminating in high-stakes statecraft over Palestine and Israel. Domestically, the hosts explore how old party systems and consensus politics are breaking down—while calls for reform, honest debate, and cross-party action ring ever louder. The tone is engaged, subtly urgent, and wryly optimistic in patches, balancing deep concern for the future with a faith in the possibility of creative, collective solutions.

Next up:
The hosts promise a Q&A episode examining post-Charlie Kirk developments, Moldovan elections’ geopolitical significance, new China espionage revelations, and a nostalgic look at classic TV ads.