452. Question Time: America’s New Martyr and Westminster’s Hidden Spies

Summary

The Rest Is Politics – Episode 452

Question Time: America’s New Martyr and Westminster’s Hidden Spies
September 24, 2025 – Hosted by Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart tackle the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s killing in America and its political exploitation, debate real cancel culture and free speech on both sides of the Atlantic, and dig into the collapse of the Chinese spying case in Westminster. They also reflect on signs of shifting world order, Russia’s hybrid warfare in Moldova, and share a lighter segment on nostalgic TV adverts. Throughout, they combine sharp analysis with personal anecdotes and the podcast’s trademark mix of humour and insight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. America’s “New Martyr”: The Weaponization of Charlie Kirk’s Death

• Political Rally Disguised as Memorial

  • Both hosts react to the politicized funeral, especially Stephen Miller’s speech. Stewart highlights Miller’s "astonishing" language espousing ethnic nationalism, likening it to mainstreaming “the Lord of the Rings... taking on the orcs at Mordor” (02:12).
  • Quote:

    “He keeps talking about legacy, inheritance... our people. Presumably white people are the people who built Athens and Rome and Monticello... We created civilization and our opponents... are barbarians.”
    — Rory Stewart (02:50)

• Chilling Parallels with Authoritarian History

  • Campbell compares the MAGA reaction to a “Reichstag moment—something bad happens and they weaponize it” (03:30).
  • Notes that Miller’s rhetoric closely echoes phrases from Goebbels’ “The Coming Storm.”

• Free Speech: Hypocrisy & Suppression

  • Campbell sharply critiques the right’s claim to free speech, citing Trump’s attacks on media figures like Jimmy Kimmel:

    “Free speech is... so long as you agree with us. If you don’t agree with us... you are nothing.”
    — Alastair Campbell (04:32)

  • Notes the irony given right-wing complaints about cancel culture in the UK.

• Religious Nationalism and Christian Nationalist Fusion

  • Both hosts discuss the deliberate fusion of right-wing politics and Christianity in the U.S. as a means to “other” non-Christian groups, especially Muslims (07:30–08:23).
  • Stewart critiques the hollow invocation of Christianity for exclusionary, anti-empathetic politics:

    "I'm not sure that any of these people... are actually serious practicing Christians at all. It’s just a pure cover for anti-Muslim sentiment.”
    — Rory Stewart (08:23)

  • Notes the importance of actual Christian values (empathy, caring for outsiders) versus the weaponized version on display.

• Hate as Authoritarian Fuel

  • Trump’s open declaration at the event—"I hate my opponents"—and the crowd’s applause, seen as the heart of authoritarianism (09:07).

• Reflections on British Media’s Rightward Drift

  • Campbell discusses GB News and figures like Paul Marshall leveraging religious rhetoric to justify right-wing positions (10:47).

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2. Cancel Culture: Right vs. Left

• Examined via the U.S. reaction post-Kirk and contrasts to UK discourse.
• Rory Stewart notes his skepticism of both sides' claims but agrees the current right-wing suppression in the U.S. puts the left’s efforts in the shade (06:44).

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3. Judeo-Christian Inheritance & Human Rights: A Contested Battlefield

• Both explore ideological battles over the concept of “fallenness” and Christian values as invoked by political actors like Danny Kruger, Curtis Yarvin.
• Stewart:

  "When it comes to their enemies, boy, there’s not much forgiving at all." (13:29)

• Kruger’s denouncement of human rights as “worshipping fairies” is ridiculed for its lack of coherence (14:29).
• Stewart defends the Christian roots of human rights, criticizing the current right-wing theological reinterpretation (14:59).

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4. British Diplomacy: Lighter (and Vinous) Moments

• Listener asks why the state banquet menu for the king and Trump was in French and lacked English wine (16:21).
• Campbell jokes about Trump’s teetotalism; Stewart suggests the European menu might be subtle trolling (16:57).

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5. Chinese Spying, the UK Parliamentary Case Collapse & Security Legislation

• Collapse of the Cash/Berry Spy Case
  • Stewart’s skepticism about the evidence since the case began is vindicated: “I was always a bit skeptical... whether they’d ever be able to get evidence...” (20:02).
• Gordon Carrera’s Security Analysis (22:27–24:42)
  • Explains the difficulty of prosecuting under the old Official Secrets Act versus the new National Security Act, which lowers the bar for prosecution.
  • Points to ongoing vulnerabilities:

    “Concern that some of the loopholes which allow foreign money... into politics... has not been closed by successive governments.”
    — Gordon Carrera (23:20)

  • Highlights persistent and growing threats from both Chinese and Russian foreign interference.

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6. Signs of the Breaking World Order

• Stewart details strategic shifts pointing to declining U.S./Western clout:

  • New Saudi–Pakistan defense deal (linked to nuclear deterrence)
  • China blocking defense agreements between Australia and Pacific islands (27:44–28:48)
  • Erosion of multilateral alliances and institutions (UN/NATO) under Trump

• “As America gives up on the United Nations, gives up on the international system, these alliances emerge... something that feels... like, if not a pre-Second World War moment, maybe pre-First World War.”
  — Rory Stewart (29:28)

• Campbell underlines China’s global maneuvering as U.S. focus wanes (28:48–29:28).

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7. Russian Hybrid Warfare: Chaos as a Strategy in Moldova

• Stewart outlines the Kremlin’s playbook in Moldova—funneling money, misinformation, cyberattacks to destabilize the pro-EU government (31:06–33:38).
• Explains the shift from Chinese “rational pursuit of interests” to Russian “policy of chaos” (34:29).
• Campbell:

  “Ultimately, the goal is to undermine Moldovan people's faith in their political institutions and leaders. That’s the goal.” (35:32)

• Both underscore that this model has been deployed across Europe, including Brexit and U.S. elections.

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8. Nostalgia & Political Reflections: The Power and Demise of TV Adverts

• Campbell and Stewart reminisce about favourite British TV ads, noting their cultural influence and the decline of TV advertising revenue (37:43–41:07).

• Stewart on the implications for politics:

  “With TV advertising revenue collapsed... the money flows to social media. And that’s dangerous for politics.” (39:41)

• Stewart also notes the danger in Trump’s seizure of TikTok:

  “If America starts helping itself to other people’s companies, other people may start doing the same.” (40:59)

• Campbell skewers Trump’s wild numeric claims:

  “He was talking about he’s going to lower drug prices by 1,200%... These numbers just come out of his head.” (41:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Christian Nationalism:

  “What is Christianity fundamentally about? It is fundamentally about getting beyond ourselves. It's about the empathy and imagination to see... a neighbor from another community and look after them... For it to be co-opted by people who are entirely about selfishness… is so sinister and disturbing.”
  — Rory Stewart (08:23)

• On Cancel Culture:

  “Free speech is... so long as you agree with us. If you don’t agree with us, you are nothing.”
  — Alastair Campbell (04:32)

• On Global Security Threats:

  "It’s enormous. And their cyber attack people [in China] are into hundreds of thousands."
  — Rory Stewart (20:02)

• On Russian Strategy:

  "The view of Putin, a bit like Trump, is that generally speaking, chaos helps them."
  — Rory Stewart (35:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• America’s New Martyr & MAGA:
  • 00:20–12:58 — Reactions to Charlie Kirk’s death, right-wing cancel culture, religious nationalism
• Human Rights & Christian Tradition:
  • 12:58–16:21 — Arguments over Judeo-Christian inheritance, human rights, and political theology
• State Banquet Diplomacy:
  • 16:21–18:33 — Banquet menu humor, King Charles’s subtle messages to Trump
• Chinese Spying & Security Failures:
  • 18:33–25:02 — Collapse of parliamentary spy case, Gordon Carrera’s analysis
• Signs of a Shifting World Order:
  • 26:20–31:06 — New Saudi–Pakistan deal, China’s Pacific moves, Australia/U.S. alliances
• Moldova & Russian Hybrid Warfare:
  • 31:06–37:09 — Pro-Russian campaigns, European destabilization, methods and motives
• Political and TV Adverts:
  • 37:09–43:24 — Favourite TV ads, advertising’s influence on culture and politics, Trump’s TikTok move

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Summary

This episode serves as a deep dive into two major concerns: how American and British right-wing forces are weaponizing culture, religion, and speech, and how global power dynamics are destabilizing traditional alliances and institutions. Through vivid analysis and memorable analogies, Campbell and Stewart spell out the risks of political martyrdom, the corrosion of democratic norms, the redefinition of religion in politics, and the new landscape of hybrid and information warfare. As always, the blend of wit, personal anecdote and inside knowledge keeps the discussions fresh, accessible, and provocative.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the restispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com.

[Rory Stewart]

Welcome to the Restless Politics Question time.

[Alistair Campbell]

With me, Rory Stewart, and me, Alistair Campbell. And first question, Rory is from Tom, who's a member in Alice Springs.

[Rory Stewart]

Alice Springs, Australia.

[Alistair Campbell]

Ah, I've been there. Fabulous place, Charlie. Kurt's killing must be condemned, but the reaction is also concerning, says Tom. With the clampdown on anyone who now says anything negative about him, including even quoting him. Is cancel culture worse from the right than the left? And is this a Reichstag moment?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, let me begin by saying there's a big, big push from people who are on the soft right to think that we're all being hysterical. So I know I keep quoting my mother, but she has a general tendency to assume that when we're talking about what Donald Trump is doing or when we're talking about what's happening in Gaza, we're exaggerating and we're undermining ourselves by exaggerating. And of course, comparisons to the Reichstag, to Hitler, to Goebbels, gives engine to my mother's idea that we're exaggerating. But, but, but it is very, very, very scary. And the Mike Pompeo interview that we did on a leading coming out on Monday, one of the things that troubled me about it is how dismissive he is of any attempts to suggest that America has entered a new world, that the threats against Greenland matter, that the contempt for the European Union is a problem, the speech that Stephen Miller, who is Trump's deputy chief of staff, policy and the big kind of, I guess probably the big intellectual powerhouse insofar as there is one of the Trump campaign at the Charlie Kirk funeral is completely astonishing. If you play it and there's many versions available, you can see him saying things which have basically some strange kind of extreme ethnic nationalism of a sort I've never heard from a mainstream American politician. He says Erica, who is Charlie Kirk's widow, stands on the shoulders of thousands of years of warriors, people who built our industry, our civilization, who took us out of the caves into the light. And he keeps talking about legacy, inheritance. And the story seems to be our people. Presumably white people are the people who built Athens and built Rome and built Monticello, which is Thomas Jefferson's house, where famously the slave quarters were kept Right next to this great classical Palladian mansion. These are the good people. We created civilization. And our opponents are people who live in caves, who are barbarians, who are anti civilization. And we now need to stand up. It's like the Lord of the Rings. This is a speech taking on the orcs at Mordor. We, you know, the great inheritors of civilization need to fight these barbarians. And who are these barbarians? Well, presumably they're the people who do not come from Europe. And presumably they represent most of the Democratic Party. I mean, what did you make of the speech?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I sort of watched bits of it and found it pretty horrifying. It wasn't a memorial, it was a rally. It was a political event. It did remind me, I'm afraid, a bit of the Reichstag moment where something bad happens. And the maga, they just seized on it. And you almost felt like from the minute Charlie Kirk was assassinated that they were ready for this. It was to weaponize it. And somebody did a very interesting analysis of Stephen Miller's speech against a famous speech that Goebbels did called the Coming storm, became known as the coming Storm. And there were phrases almost directly lifted.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, Charlie Kirk says, doesn't he? The warrior says, we are the storm.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that Stephen Miller went on to say was that if you aren't of these people, him, Trump, maga, Charlie Kirk, you are nothing. You count for nothing. You are nothing people. And so that was pretty scary. I found it quite scary that Tucker Carlson stood up there and basically tried to make a parallel between Charlie Kirk and Jesus Christ. I found it pretty horrific that so many. There's now these people who bang on about there being a free speech problem in the uk. I had this with Curtis Yarvin talking about, you know, all these people in Britain who get arrested for tweets and so forth. I mean, this is far bigger, a much bigger attack on free speech now. Okay, Jimmy Kimmel has been reinstated, it seems, because of the backlash. But Trump celebrating the departure of a TV satirist, suing newspapers that came out against him during the campaign for massive sums of money. They do not believe in free speech. Free speech is, you have free speech so long as you agree with us. If you don't agree with us, you are, as Stephen Miller said, nothing. And the other thing I found alarming about the whole event was just think of all the deaths that there have been. Think of all the deaths that have been in Gaza. Think of all the deaths that have been in Ukraine. Think of Melissa Hawtman, the Democrat politician who was murdered with her husband and her dog, who Trump said he didn't know about that. Nobody raised that with him.

[Rory Stewart]

And the gun deaths in the United.

[Alistair Campbell]

States, which are completely startling, somebody made the point that this was the celebration of the life of, of a man who believed that in the right of everyone to carry guns. Where Elon Musk and Donald Trump were having a conversation behind a bulletproof glass inside a studio.

[Rory Stewart]

And I think people forget the figures in the US directly connected to gun ownership. If you look from 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, the number of people killed each decade in the United States with civilian on civilian gun violence soars. In the UK the homicide rate actually falls down. And in the US literally over a million people have now been killed with guns since the second World War within the United States. It's the most terrifying situation. And the Charlie Kirk shooter is a deeply, deeply disturbed man, many of whom's thoughts, attitudes, behaviors are very, very similar to the way that school shooters emerge and leave us with the same terrifying sense of being unable to explain them. I mean one of the things that you notice when you read stories on school shooters that journalists go out, they interview the parents, they interview the friends, they read through their diaries, they read through their posts and they hit bedrock pretty quickly, pretty quickly it becomes inexplicable. You never really manage to understand fully the psychology that leads people to do this.

[Alistair Campbell]

But right now the Trump Vance etc crowd, they don't want to understand. There were posters around this event. So it was held in a football stadium and there were posters there say they killed Charlie Kirk, they killed Charlie Kirk. They will not kill his ideas. And it's interesting what the ideas were because Michael Wolff, who I've done this Murdoch miniseries with that's coming out soon, I saw him on his very beautifully filmed Instagram account and he was saying that this is a really interesting example of where Charlie Kirk is ultimately a religious figure who has been co opted by politics. And I do find that very, very interesting. And I sent you an article that somebody sent me from the Humanist Society about the rise of Christian nationalism and a lot of what's happening in America in a country actually where religion is not as prevalent or as popular as it used to be, but where actually there is this deliberate attempt to fuse right wing politics with Christianity. And also partly that is to other anybody who is not a practicing Christian. And particularly of course Muslims.

[Rory Stewart]

And particularly of course Muslims. Very striking. We talked about it with the Tommy Robinson march in London that there Were people carrying crosses and signs saying Christ is king. And Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury. A number of other bishops have written a formal letter rejecting this vision of Christianity. And of course, what they don't say, because they wouldn't say, but I'm very happy to say is I'm not sure that any of these people carrying these banners are actually serious practicing Christians at all. I think it's just a pure cover for anti Muslim sentiment and that journalists who indulge the idea that this is an expression of genuine religious feeling. What is Christianity fundamentally about? It is fundamentally about getting beyond ourselves. It's fundamentally about the other. It's about the empathy and imagination to see, like the Good Samaritan, a neighbor from another community and look after them. It's about driving ourselves, in the words and Paul's, to think about slaves, to think about women, to think about the poor above all. And for it to be co opted by people who are entirely about selfishness. Look after yourself. Strength to the power. The weak can go to the wall. Hate the other is so sinister and disturbing.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, I found Charlie Kirk's widow's speech probably the only one that you felt was even vaguely appropriate for a memorial event. And she talked about forgiveness. She did. And she, and I thought it was profoundly moving that she said, you know, I forgive the killer because that is what Jesus would do. Next up was Donald Trump saying, he almost said it word for word, like when he was with Keir Starmer talking about Palestinian recognition. This is one area where I disagree. This is one of her disagree. I hate my opponents. And not everybody, but quite a sizable chunk in that, in that stadium, burst into spontaneous applause. I hate my opponent. That is the notion right at the heart of authoritarianism. You hate your opponent. If you hate somebody, you want to destroy them. And I think that I was reading up on, just because I knew we were going to be talking about this, on McCarthyism, Joseph McCarthy, the senator, the Republican senator who headed up this sort of witch hunt against people who were engaged in UN American activities, said there were 250 people in the State Department who were communists. Turned out he couldn't find any but incredible traction along the way. But if you think back to McCarthy, at least they had inquiries. Now these people just call other people out. Jimmy Kimmel should get sacked. Jimmy Skimmel gets sacked. Okay, he's come back. People on boats in Venezuela, they're drug dealers. We should be allowed to kill them. And they do kill them and they do kill themselves. No apologies, nothing. So I think the idea this is Christian. And the point about the way this debate is developing, I had a message from a Brit who lives in the States who said, I don't know if you're watching Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk's funeral, but you should, because this is what's coming your way. And what he meant by that was for his. Let's take GB News. GB News, okay. Not much in the way of viewing, but it's got quite a hold in the political world right now. Paul Marshall, the guy who owns it, former Liberal Democrat, and I said to Nick Clay, why didn't you give this guy a seat and get him a safe seat? And he might, might have stayed on the sort of, you know, a decent path. He is a sort of, you know, projects himself as a real sort of Christian thinker and he, his media outlets are coming from this very right wing perspective and he knows the Spectator, Spectator, GB News. He's, you know, he's become quite a player within the, within the media world. And his view is that we have. I've got the quote here. Traditional British idealism rests on the Judeo Christian understanding that we are all, in moral terms, fallen creatures. Somewhere amid the arrogance of the Enlightenment. Curtis Yarvin hates the Enlightenment as well. We lost this sense of fallenness. Now, I don't think that's a majority view in this country.

[Rory Stewart]

It's really interesting. It's really interesting. So firstly, they're so focused on the Judeo Christian inheritance. And you can see that this is making common cause because, because after Charlie Kirk's death, most of the senior figures in Israeli politics came out and made condolence messages about Judeo Christian inheritance. So that's one thing. The second thing is this fallen stuff, the notion of our fallenness should be driving a sense of radical humility, a sense that we're broken and that we all need God and that that should develop an incredible sense of, of our empathy with other people who are suffering, other people who are struggling. Instead of which, what it's often used by, by other people, including my friend Danny Kruger, who's now defected to reform and who also has made speeches in Parliament attacking paganism, attacking the Enlightenment, attacking effectively liberal values, is that they use the idea that we're fallen to forgive their rotten allies. Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, doesn't matter how much they lie, how much they misbehave, sexly, they're like, you know, we forgive them, everybody's fallen. We're all sinful. When it comes to their enemies, boy, there's not much forgiving at all. The enemies are immediately stereotyped as the evil that needs to be eradicated, the darkness. All this Charlie Kirk stuff.

[Alistair Campbell]

So this piece I read about Christian nationalism, he actually quoted quite length from one of Kruger's speeches in Parliament last July, and he said the MPs had to back a revival of the faith recovery of Christian politics, a refounding of the nation Christians should destroy. They love that word. Banish from public life a woke modern creed which combines ancient paganism, Christian heresies and the cult of modernism. And then went on to say, God knows what this means. Roy, maybe you can help me because you went to school with them. To worship human rights is to worship fairies. What the hell does that mean?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, so this is an idea that human rights are a complete fantastical invention that has no foundation in reality. And again, human rights matters within the Christian tradition because it's founded on a sense that each one of us is uniquely created by God, is unique in our dignity, is unique in our equality, and our rights are founded on that. That's why there is a very profound Catholic tradition of rights going all the way back to Thomas Aquinas. And this attempt to try to suggest that human rights is simply a kind of liberal fantasy. You know, actually people really interested in geeking out on this. I have a huge argument with Jacob Rees Mogg, where the two of us went at each other for an hour in the House of Commons where I'm defending the European Court on human rights and Jacob's attacking it. But remember also that Danny Kruger is one of the people that J.D. vance saw when he came to the Cotswolds. So this is the beginning of the development of this Christian stuff. And I think it behoves Christians to speak against this. And I'm very pleased that the leaders of the Church of England are standing up and saying, no, this is not Christianity. Just as the last Pope and the current Pope has called out JD Vance and they look, don't listen to me. I don't know anything about this stuff. But the Pope certainly does.

[Alistair Campbell]

The Pope is something of an expert on these issues. Rory. Okay, State visit Divinia, who's a member from Montreal. On a lighter, if diplomatic note, when Rory next speaks with his friend, His Majesty the King, could he ask A, why was the state banquet menu in French and B, why there were no English wines on the menu?

[Rory Stewart]

Rule Britannia here?

[Alistair Campbell]

I think so. The lovely wines from Kent. None of that Chardonnay nonsense.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, well, it's, I, I, I'm, I. Very interesting. I'll Try to get an answer for you. I'll report back if he's happy to.

[Alistair Campbell]

He. There was some wonderful stuff on social media of Charles's face during Trump's speech. He did. It struck me he was stifling. He did.

[Rory Stewart]

He did do, though, what. What you asked, which is His Majesty did push firmly on the subject of Ukraine during a speech.

[Alistair Campbell]

He did. He did.

[Rory Stewart]

It was really interesting, that. Really interesting what it tells us about how a monarchy can operate in the modern world and the way in which it takes some of the. Both gives the ceremony, gives the event for Trump, takes some of the political energy out of it. No, it reconfirms me again. I mean, I'm completely party pre on this, that King Charles is doing an unbelievably good job and we're very, very lucky to have him.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, it wouldn't have. I don't think the Queen. I don't mean Queen Camilla, I mean Queen Elizabeth. I don't think the Queen would have made that speech in quite the same way. I thought there was something truly comical about Donald Trump being wheeled around in a carriage in the grants of Windsor park with lots of sort of military personnel hanging around. Quite good bagpipes this time, unlike Prince Philip's funeral. But. Yeah. Anyway, as for the wine, I don't know, because, of course, they wouldn't have worried too much about that because of course, famously, Donald Trump has never drunk alcohol.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, maybe. I wonder whether they're not. Yeah, One of the slightly teasing Donald Trump also by. By showing their European connections.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. Like when. Like when the Queen wore that sort of Brexit flag hat. Anyway, there we are. Right, that's. That's enough of Trump.

[Rory Stewart]

Final question before the break. Tamira Yards. What does the collapse of the Chinese spying case mean for the credibility of the UK's ability to protect Parliament from foreign interference?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, again, to plug Mike Pompeo. God, did he give us a hard time about this new embassy. The new Chinese embassies you're building. You've got this big building, you're gonna have 200 Chinese spies in there. I don't care if they say they're diplomats, they're all members of the Communist Party and they work for intelligence.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And I promise you, they're all supposed. Well, look, I. I've never quite got this, because the truth of the matter is that we're all very open and very proud about spying on China and doing all we can to recruit agents all the way through the Chinese.

[Alistair Campbell]

We now do on the dark web.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely and of course, we do an incredible, you know, the British signals intelligence, American signals intelligence, collecting extraordinary amounts of data worldwide. I totally think it's absurd if we start behaving like sort of prim Victorians, pulling up our petticoats and saying, oh, it's absolutely shocking the Chinese are spying on us. However, it's also worth bearing in mind that we need to be serious about the fact the Chinese are spying on us. And we need to be careful and we need to protect. Protects ourselves against it. But that isn't a moral judgment on China when we have massive agencies dedicated to spying on the Chinese and Russians, of course they're spying back and we should protect ourselves against it.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the scale of the. I was talking to somebody recently who told me that there were now more than a million people in China who basically work for intelligence. Yeah, that's a lot of people.

[Rory Stewart]

It's enormous. And their cyber attack people into hundreds of thousands. And after the break, we'll come back on Moldova, where we can talk about what the Russians have been doing and this kind of stuff, but just people who haven't been following the case. Christopher Cash and Christopher Berry were faced accusations of breaching the Official Secrets act, and the case has now been dropped. We covered it in the podcast when it happened. I was always a bit skeptical, to be honest, about this case and whether they'd ever be able to get evidence to put it together and prosecute. These people were not people with developed vetting working for our government. They were people who had. Were running parliamentary organizations for discussions on China who may or may not have connections to China. But I couldn't quite see how they were going to put the case together. And sure enough, it's now collapsed. I also wondered from the point of view of the Chinese, whether hiring people doing the equivalent of all party parliamentary groups was the best way of spending your intelligence bucks. But maybe I'm being a bit rude about all party parliamentary groups.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the point is, Roy, they operate at every level that they can. So it'd be very odd not to do parliament in some way anyway. The speaker, Lindsay Hoyle, is very angry about this and thinks that Parliament has to do more to protect itself and that this sends a very, very bad signal. And the point about the embassy is that, I mean, it is a big strategic decision, but it's playing into this idea that the Americans have that we're some sort of basket case. I mean, I think it's a sign of that we're still a serious country, that the Chinese want to build this massive new embassy and stack it full of their spies. It's just. We have to hold.

[Rory Stewart]

I don't quite understand the issue here. I mean, what is it exactly that Pompeii is worried about? And Priti Patel's also very cross about this, but it's essentially planning permission for a new huge embassy is the idea that somehow, in the current position that the embassy is located, they're not able to do all the signals intelligence they could do from the new embassy. Presumably not. Right. I mean, so in terms of actual.

[Alistair Campbell]

Technical ability, they are expanding. They're going to get more.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, that's a question of visas, that's not a question of buildings.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah, so.

[Rory Stewart]

And we can always expel.

[Alistair Campbell]

So we welcome the speeding up of the planning process, don't we?

[Rory Stewart]

Planning is absolutely except. And we will cover this next week when it comes to the tearing up of the national parks legislation.

[Alistair Campbell]

Anyway, while we're on this subject, before we go to the break, Rory, podcast partner from one of our sister podcasts, the rest is classified. Gordon Carrera wants to have a word.

[Gordon Carrera]

Hi, Rory. Hi, Alistair. Thanks for the question. There is a lot of shock and concern about the dropping of this case related to China, because a lot of people have been watching it very closely. Now, does it damage the credibility of Parliament of the Security Service's ability to stop foreign interference? I think it raises some questions, but only some part of the issue with this case. It was under the Official Secrets Act, a very old piece of legislation which required evidence that information had been passed to someone acting on behalf of an enemy. And so in court, that might have required a British official going into court and describing China as an enemy. Quite awkward at a time when the UK is seeking trade and investment from China. But since this case was started, we've had a new piece of legislation, the National Security act, and that has a different bar in which material prejudicial to the British state or the UK national interest is a sufficient criteria for someone to be prosecuted for doing something damaging to UK national interests. So a slightly different bar, but it's also true, there is still quite a lot of concern about the ability of Parliament to protect itself from what is seen as growing foreign interference. Sometimes it's even parliamentarians who've been warned in the past, well, the person you're meeting with is maybe close to Chinese or Russian intelligence. And sometimes parliamentarians themselves have kind of dismissed those concerns. There's also still the concern about foreign money and the ability of money to get into politics. There's supposed to be rules to stop it. But I think there's been concern that some of the loopholes which allow foreign money, and particularly foreign money which perhaps is even linked to foreign intelligence services to get in, that has not been closed by successive governments. So I think the threat remains, and a lot of people would say it's growing, not just from Russia, but also China. But I think the hope will be that some of the new tools, including the National Security act, will make it easier to go after some of that activity without some of the difficulties posed by the Official Secrets act in this case. And of course, we should say that in this case, the two individuals, you know, the charges have been dropped and they've always maintained their innocence.

[Rory Stewart]

If you want to hear more from Gordon, the rest is classified. Have a series coming out next week on the time when Chinese spies hacked Google. And for those who want to know more about the wild history of China's security agencies, let's go to the break.

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[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome back to the Rest is Politics with me, Alistair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And with me, Rory Stewart.

[Alistair Campbell]

So, Rory, Finn Walton. Most weeks you both discuss the gradual breaking of the world order and it tends to be supported by big headlines and geopolitics that would have shocked us 10 years ago. But are there also smaller signs that we're missing? Yeah, lots of them.

[Rory Stewart]

There are many, many of them, I'm afraid. I mean, I was trying to talk to my kids about war and conflict. We'd just been watching a war movie and they were really upset as 8 and 10 year olds by the vision of an officer writing to the families of men who died, writing to their mummies and daddies. And of course, it made me think about the fact that while people are celebrating Trump or saying it's all a bit of fun, of course, what I believe they're doing is creating a world that's increasingly unstable and increasing the chance of conflict in our lifetime. And the canaries in the mine, as it were, the signs of this are rather interesting. So this week, for example, Saudi has announced a very, very big formal defense partnership with Pakistan. Now, Pakistan, of course, is the nation which has the nuclear bomb which A. Q Khan brought together. And that's Saudi signaling that they now have a formal alliance with nuclear weapons. And it comes just after the Israeli attack on Qatar. Now the Saudis say, well, it's been a long time in coming together, but it's an interesting symbol of as people give up on the idea of the US as the global policeman, as the west shrinks, as NATO shrinks, as the US Makes it more and more clear they have no interest in international law, Trump has no interest in preventing Israel from attacking his ally Qatar. Countries will begin to, in a voted commas, look after themselves and that becomes more and more dangerous. Let's look at one more tiny example. People may not have noticed Australia was about to make a defence and security deal with Papua New guinea. And they've been some of the similar agreements with other Pacific islands, and that was basically blocked by China. These are little clues of things that we're going to, I predict, find happening more and more around the world over the next two, three years. As America gives up on the United nations, gives up on the international system, these alliances emerge. And every one of these alliances, of course, creates more and more of a sense that we are in something that feels a bit like, if not a pre Second World War movement, maybe a pre First World War movement.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, the thing in Papua New guinea is fascinating because they. So the Australians had done the groundwork to go into a pretty comprehensive defense treaty with them, and they tried to do something similar with Vanuatu as well. And it kind of virtually, at the last minute, it got watered down to a communique, signals of intent. And it seems that was in direct response to pressure from China. And you do get the sense that in all sorts of different ways, China is spotting the places where American alliances are weakening or American power may be Waning, and they're thinking we move in.

[Rory Stewart]

And it's no coincidence that as we were discussing last week, so far nine months in Albanese has not yet met Trump. And this would have been a classic moment for previous US administrations that were serious about challenging China. And the way that Mike Pompeo said that he was serious about challenging China to have got in behind Australia, strengthened that. That's what the whole Orcus deal is about with nuclear weapons. Lean in behind these agreements with Papua New guinea and Tuvalu. And of course, Trump isn't doing that at all while talking a big game about Europe needs to put 51% sanctions against China when the rubber hits the road, when it really matters, when he needs to strengthen an alliance with Australia in a key part of the South Pacific, he's not leaning into it at all.

[Alistair Campbell]

You mentioned Orcas there as well. So you and I, we interviewed Peter Malinowskis, the Premier of South Australia.

[Rory Stewart]

Josie, his name sounds a bit like Orcus. It's like he's got Orcus.

[Alistair Campbell]

Brilliant, isn't it? It's just absolutely fantastic how he does that. Melanorcus. And we saw him recently when he was over at doing all sorts of things in the uk and he remained very confident that the Americans would stick to Orcus and that it because. And he was saying the numbers for the Australian economy and Australian defense are incredible. I mean, it's one of the biggest deals they have ever done. Yeah. So they have to rely on this. But as you say, the fact that it's taken Albanese thus far yet to see Trump is, I'd have thought that's quite a worrying story. Added to which, the guy that the Americans have put in charge of a review of Aukus Colby, he's right out on the kind of magification of foreign policy. So I'd be a little bit more worried maybe if I was Australian.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, next question coming in from Harik Kovel, Shrewsbury. If you were a strategist in the Russian intelligence services, assuming neither of you secretly are, why would you care about influencing the Moldovan election? And how would you triple hosts most effectively go about achieving your desired effects? Being realistic about your abilities is the Kremlin. The reality is the Moldovan contest was a really, really good question. So Russia essentially now is running a lot of these operations out of the presidential office instead of out of the svr, the old kgb. And they're increasingly running it through these slightly arm's length political consultancy advisory groups. Famous one is called Ano Dialogue, which calls itself a Social Design Agency, and they call themselves political technologists. And this is what's being deployed into Moldova, what you will see in Moldova now. And we'll get on to why Moldova matters and maybe in a second, and explaining why it matters to Ukraine and why it matters to Romania and Europe. But in this Moldovan election, where we have a pro eu, pro Western, pretty incorruptible leader called Maya Sandu, who pretty narrowly won the presidential election, pretty narrowly won a referendum and is now going to parliamentary election, Russia is absolutely determined to take away her majority in parliament. And so they're playing fast and loose with every different political party in Moldova as they come up. The election there is millions of rubles are going in there. I think it was a BBC interview recently where a lady votes as the last election comes out and says, I've done my vote. Where do I collect my money? Right. So genuine sort of proper payments. Cyber attacks. I think we can expect when our episode goes out that we'll begin to hear stuff about cyber attacks the Russians have mounted directly against government infrastructure in Moldova. And there's been an interesting change in the Kremlin, which is Dmitry Kosak, who was very proud of running all this stuff, resigned last week. He's been replaced by a man called Sergei Karaenko, the first deputy head of the presidential administration. And he's using these political technologies, these firms, who I remember saying to you in 2019, Russian firms and firms that claim to be connected to ex Mossad members turning up in my house, convincing us, trying to be London mayor, saying, we've run campaigns in Moldova, we've run campaigns in the caucuses, we can use social media technology and fake news to win you this campaign. Doing a lot of this stuff in Moldova.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. The question, look, Moldova is a very small country and relatively poor country, but it's the reason why it matters is because it is in their sights. And that was the case at the last election. I've done a bit of work with my Sandhu, and I think she's an incredibly impressive woman, but you can see when you see her, she's under massive pressure because it's so hard to fight back against this stuff, this hybrid warfare where you have the fear of the military stuff, which is really, really quite scary. But then meanwhile, you have this relentless psychological warfare as well, and the stuff that is being fed in and it's social media and it's bots and its events. And when you were saying about the Chinese, you know, why would they bother with a kind of parliamentary committee The Russians are doing the same in Moldova. Every aspect of public life, although I.

[Rory Stewart]

Think there's an interesting difference between the way that China and Russia do things. China, it's easier to see the strategy. It's about using their intelligence agencies to pursue Chinese interests and often, broadly speaking, to pursue things that work for the Chinese economy. And in many cases, that's about pro Chinese figures and that's about stability. Russia, it feels as though Putin's policy is quite literally chaos. I think we were talking to somebody about Trump, and certainly I was talking to one of Trump's appointees when I was in the States last, who said Trump loves the image of throwing a deck of cards on the ground and just seeing what happens. And you get a sense that that's what Putin's inner office likes to do. There's evidence that during the Black Lives Matter campaign that the Russians were both funding pro Black Lives Matter campaigners and people, white supremacists, who are against Black Lives Matter. That the view of Putin, a bit like Trump, is that generally speaking, chaos helps them.

[Alistair Campbell]

Chaos is good. That's exactly what it's about. But ultimately, the goal is to undermine Moldovan people's faith in their political institutions and their political leaders. That's the goal. And if you've got the money that the Russians throw at this, as you say, including their money, but also money from these organizations that they use outside, they don't do it without knowing that there's going to be effect. I still to this day, don't think we've got to the bottom of the Russian role in Brexit, let alone the Russian role in Trump's first term victory. They do it because they've worked out how to make it effective. And they do it with deniability. They do it because of the arm's length deniability, but they also do it because they're very happy to say they're not doing it. And they always say it with a smirk because they want you to know that while they're denying it, they're doing it to you.

[Rory Stewart]

This is Russia that lent money to Marine Le Pen's party. I mean, it's one of the things that she's been investigated for in the past. This is Russia that quite clearly supported the AfD and the AfD. The far right in Germany has come out with very pro Russian statements and tried it in Britain. I think probably not as successfully as they would have liked. As, you know, a lot of Russian money went into the Conservative Party. Russians living in Britain giving money to the Conservative Party, when push came to shove, to be fair for once in my life to Boris Johnson, he actually took a very, very strong anti Russian line on Ukraine. But they probably would have hoped that all this money swelling around will have created similar dissension in Britain. And they'll certainly be hoping that this Tommy Robinson stuff and other stuff, as you say, undermines people's faith in institutions and democracy.

[Alistair Campbell]

And of course, the other reason why Putin, why it matters to Putin is because one of his big, big strategic goals is to sort of break up the European Union, weaken the European Union. And Moldova is one of those countries that wants to become part of the European Union. So the more that he can create the chaos, prevent the leaders who want that access to European accession to the European Union, prevent them from winning, then that's a win for him. Final question, Rory. Let's have a bit of nostalgia. Damien Hyde on the 70th anniversary of the first TV advertisement advert. I'd love to know what your favorite TV adverts are. Well, do you know what the first one was ever?

[Rory Stewart]

No, what was the first one?

[Alistair Campbell]

Gibbs toothpaste.

[Rory Stewart]

Gibbs toothpaste. Well, that didn't go very well because there is no more Gibbs.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, you know, brands come and go, don't they?

[Rory Stewart]

TV advertising, a waste of time. Look at Gibbs toothpaste.

[Alistair Campbell]

Nobody did very. They had a massive spike at the time and it was incredible. I, I listened to it last night and it was incredible. This unbelievable posh voice, way posher than you. So I say if you want really shiny teeth, you want them to sparkle, use Sr. Gibbs toothpaste. It is really good. So go. What's your favorite advert?

[Rory Stewart]

Tony the Tiger for Frosties. Oh, I absolutely love Tony the Tiger. It's great.

[Alistair Campbell]

It's great. Yeah. I think my favorite, my favorite, I think the most beautiful advertisement ever made was actually by a friend of mine with whom I ended up working on a party election broadcast on Neil Kennett, which was Hugh Hudson. He did the most beautiful adverts for British Airways when it was quotes, the world's favorite airline. They were absolutely beautiful. They were like, they were like masterpieces of film. And then I like, what was the one with. I've never used Brute, but was it.

[Rory Stewart]

Henry Cooper Spray it all over? Henry Cooper.

[Alistair Campbell]

Henry Cooper Spray all over.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. If you're drinking Carling Black Label. Do you remember that?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, I remember that one. Do you remember Tetley's? Make tea bags. Make tea.

[Rory Stewart]

That's good.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, go to work on an egg.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, go to Work on an egg.

[Alistair Campbell]

Very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All because the lady loves milk tray.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes, milk tray.

[Alistair Campbell]

These guys doing kind of James Bond style things and then, you know, beating off the baddies and then leaving the box of chocolates by the bed. There was the one for a coffee.

[Rory Stewart]

Gold blend, I think it was, where she pretends to. To percolate the coffee. She makes funny noises in the kitchen, that one.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, I think it a sort of. It was a series. It was actually an advert series where they did lots of it starts off, you know, boy meets girl and then bit by bit they kind of get it together through making gold, playing coffee. Kit Kat. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

[Rory Stewart]

But if we get just sort of finish off on a slightly more pompous note on this, one of the fascinating things is that the TV advertising revenue has completely collapsed. And that actually matters for politics. In the big days of the 90s, there were only four American stations, basically everybody watching the same evening news. $55 billion of media advertising revenue coming in. And on the back of that, journalists, reporters, foreign correspondents, and now increasingly, the money flowing, unfortunately, you know, to us, we benefit podcasts to social media. Just a little moment of seriousness around TikTok, which is part of the story, because Donald Trump has just announced effectively that he is nationalizing and seizing TikTok, the biggest social media companies in the world. That was effectively eating the lunch of its competition, these American companies, Facebook and others. And partly, I suspect, out of their own financial interest, these American companies have been beating a drum saying this is a Chinese spy operation and we can't possibly have TikTok. So having threatened to close it down, he's basically now confiscated it and handed it over to Larry Ellison's family. Murdoch's apparently want a piece of this too. And it's very dangerous because of course, there's over a trillion dollars worth of US investment in China, hundreds of billions in the BRICs. If America starts helping itself to other people's companies, other people may start doing the same to the States.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, the stuff about numbers is really interesting with Trump. So we had this situation with Caroline Levitt, Trump's press secretary, saying that he'd brought in $7 trillion of investment. Now, I don't know what the overall wealth of the United States, that's a lot of money. And then the other thing he did, the other thing yesterday, he was talking about he's going to lower drug prices by 1200%, 900%, 500%, 600%. I mean, these numbers just Come out of his head. They literally have no mathematical sense whatsoever. How do you reduce something by 1,200%? How do you do that?

[Rory Stewart]

It's beautiful. You just got to be Trump. You just got to be Trump. You just got to believe. You just got to make America great again.

[Alistair Campbell]

Our adverts are better than American adverts. 100% British adverts. Much better.

[Rory Stewart]

British TV adverts. You mean Henry Cooper, not you and me?

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no, Henry Cooper. Well, not necessarily Henry Cooper.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, come on. Henry Cooper.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean American. A lot of American advertising is dross.

[Rory Stewart]

What about Gorbachev's adverts?

[Alistair Campbell]

Didn't like them?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I was a bit. I was a bit worried by. By the great Indian cricketer, Mr. Ganguly. Interviewing hair replacement stuff in the tube. So we have. We see him with his bald head.

[Alistair Campbell]

Shane Warne does that. Did that as well before he died. Yeah. Would you do a hair replacement advert?

[Rory Stewart]

I've got quite good head of hair.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'm not saying you haven't, but if you were to lose it, would you do it?

[Rory Stewart]

Worried a bit about Mr. Ganguly that he should end up having to do that. Wasn't a very big picture of him.

[Alistair Campbell]

I once got asked to do an advert for washing machines.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

And it was all. It was like in. In my heyday after I left Downing street, and it was quite. Still quite a controversial figure. And they wanted to do a thing about spin.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, I guess it. I get it. Oh, that's. Oh, that's beautiful. Spin. The master of spin. Let's finish with that. Alastair. I think it's absolute advertising genius. You, the washing machine, the master of spit.

[Alistair Campbell]

It was never going to be a yes.

[Rory Stewart]

Before I became a politician, I had a brief moment of fame with my Afghan book. And the two ones that I was asked to do were Johnny Walker, Keep Walking and Oakley sunglasses. And in those days, this is the younger version of rory. In my mid-30s, I thought I was too pure to do that, and I was embarrassed by the idea of photographs of myself kind of advertising Oakley sunglasses. But now I'm beginning to worry, you know, that given. Given how. Where you've sunk me, whether I shouldn't have been doing that.

[Alistair Campbell]

Diffuse energy do sunglasses. The NordVPN do sunglasses. Who knows?

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, well, let's just finish with a monstrous spin. See you next week.

[Alistair Campbell]

Bye bye. You are not luminous, Watson, but you are a conductor of light. Here they are. Dr. Mortimer, I presume. Yes. Hi, John. Dr. John Watson. Who is your client?

[Rory Stewart]

He was my client, Sir Charles Baskerville. Keep reading.

[Alistair Campbell]

A local shepherd. Noted. I saw first that of the maid. Hugo Baskerville passed me thence on his black mare, and there behind him, running mute upon his track, such a hound of hell that, God forbid, should ever be at my heels. I wish I felt better in my mind about it. It's an ugly business once, an ugly, dangerous business. And the more I see of it, the less I like it. I shall be very glad to have you back safe and sound in Baker Street. Last one. Hello.

[Audio Drama Narrator/Performer]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

I'm Henry Baskerville from one of the.

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

I could just make out its pitch black form. Welcome to deepest everything, a hellish void, darkest to this piercing yellow glow of eyes. D what do you want of giant fangs?

[Rory Stewart]

No.

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