459. Question Time: Reform's Potential Upside, Why Bad News Sells & Reasons To Stay Hopeful

Summary

The Rest Is Politics – Episode 459: Question Time

Title: Reform's Potential Upside, Why Bad News Sells & Reasons To Stay Hopeful
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart
Date: 15 October 2025
Type: Q&A – Questions from listeners on current UK and global affairs, focusing on reasons for hope amidst political and media negativity.

---

Episode Overview

This episode is a deliberate effort by Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart to highlight positive news and perspectives within British and global politics. Inspired by listener feedback urging a shift away from negativity, the hosts explore reasons for optimism: green energy growth, wildlife recovery, admirable political leadership, the upside to political disruption, and good news about public institutions like the NHS and education. The conversation is both reflective and lively, with thoughtful disagreement and personal anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Does Bad News Dominate the Media?

(02:25 – 07:42)

• Rory analyses several factors:
  • Human psychology: "Humans tend to overemphasize the negative and downplay the positive... maybe that's something to do with early human evolution." (02:57 – Rory Stewart)
  • Journalistic responsibility: To hold the powerful accountable, negative stories are prioritized.
  • Audience habits & commercial drivers: Negative headlines get more traffic, fueling an "ecosystem" of negativity.
• Alastair references a study:
  • In the 1970s, the British media was "three positive to one negative," but by the 2000s it was "one positive to eighteen negative." (05:21 – Alastair Campbell)
  • The decline of local papers, which remain more positive, versus national press.

Notable Quote
"There is an interesting PhD thesis somewhere in all that."
— Alastair Campbell (04:52)

---

2. Spotlight on Good News: Renewable Energy & the Green Transition

(07:42 – 09:54)

• Renewables now outstrip coal for global electricity production.
• The price of solar has fallen "99% since 1975."
• China, India, and Pakistan are leading in green energy innovation due to "market forces."
• Royal engagement with the environment: King Charles and Prince William’s involvement at the Natural History Museum.

Memorable Moment
"The cost of solar is now reduced by 99% since 1975."
— Alastair Campbell (08:14)

"Growth in solar and wind met 100% of all extra electricity demand in the period that was covered by this survey."
— Alastair Campbell (08:45)

---

3. Conservation Success – Green Turtles

(10:18 – 11:38)

• Green turtle populations, once in sharp decline in the 1970s, have made a comeback due to decades of targeted conservation, law changes, and local and global action.
• "Green turtles are now absolutely flourishing... it really should cheer you up."
  — Rory Stewart (10:18)

---

4. Global Politics: Who Inspires Hope?

(11:44 – 13:58)

• Alastair: Highlights Australia’s McKinnon Leadership Awards for politicians showing positive, bipartisan leadership — "Australia does... have a lot going for it." (13:26)
  • Cites Peter Malinowskis (Premier of South Australia), Julian Lisa (Liberal) & Josh Burns (Labour) for cross-party work against antisemitism.
• Rory: Adds inspiring politicians from their interviews — President of Georgia, Richie Torres (USA), Seth Moulton, and mentions British figures like David Blunkett and Ben Wallace.

---

5. Reform Party: Could Its Rise Lead to Positive Change?

(14:31 – 18:30)

• Listener asks if Reform’s growth could push the UK toward proportional representation (PR) and a more cooperative political climate.
• Rory: Sees possibility — but only if cross-party coalitions seriously drive electoral reform.
• Alastair: Notes current system's “tipping points” can distort representation, possibly fuelling demand for PR.
• Both discuss the complexities of changing electoral systems and the potential end benefits for UK democracy.

Notable Quote
"We are very binary... there are advantages and disadvantages to first past, supposed to, and PR. ...But we accept that there are some things that you'll lose along the way."
— Rory Stewart (18:30)

---

6. The Nobel Peace Prize & Venezuela’s Democratic Heroine – Maria Corina Machado

(23:24 – 25:30)

• Listeners celebrate Nobel winner Machado; Alastair recounts her courage against Venezuela’s dictator Maduro.
• Maria Corina Machado is lauded as a centrist, liberal reformer — “not going down the kind of Bukele, authoritarian route... trying to stand for liberal values.” (24:34 – Rory Stewart)
• Uncertainty if she can attend the Nobel ceremony due to safety concerns.

---

7. Reasons for Hope: UK Public Service – NHS & Education

(28:00 – 34:27)

• NHS: Both hosts recount recent personal, positive experiences. Alastair humorously relates his anxiety about a dental procedure, then praises exceptional care received.
• Education: Rory highlights inspirational teachers; mentions his son wanting to become a teacher. Alastair visits Haggerston School in Hackney, notes students' engagement with politics.

Memorable Moment
"The main doctor, dentist... was a woman called Deepti Sinha. She was absolutely brilliant. She appointed a full time hand holder because I think she said she had a complete wimp on her hands."
— Alastair Campbell (28:42)

• The positive impact of educational partnerships between state and private sectors, and recognition of outstanding state school leadership.

---

8. International Good News: Direct Cash Transfers in Africa

(35:07 – 36:32)

• Rory discusses a breakthrough study: unconditional cash payments to mothers in Kenya halved infant mortality—"the most staggering thing is what it's done on infant mortality. Far better than any other intervention." (35:07)

---

9. If You Could Pass One Law?

(36:35 – 41:17)

• Listener Kim Leadbeater (MP) asks: If you were drawn for a Private Member's Bill, what would you introduce?
  • Rory: A law making government adherence to parliamentary legislation enforceable; uses the 0.7% foreign aid as an example.
  • Alastair: Legislation to limit children's access to social media, inspired by Australian initiatives.

---

10. The Power of Positive Thinking

(41:17 – 43:18)

• Rory references scientific studies showing that having a sense of purpose and gratitude “actually has an incredible impact on your health.”
• Daily gratitude practice is recommended for listeners to boost well-being and shape a more hopeful outlook.

Notable Quote
"If we all manage to be a little bit more grateful, a little bit more positive, it's remarkable what that would actually mean for our lives."
— Rory Stewart (42:29)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Negative stories, driven by human psychology, theories of political accountability, editors, advertising revenue and certain kinds of narrative structures." (Rory Stewart, 03:26)
• "COP is now a massive opportunity because the truth is Trump is driving the climate agenda backwards." (Alastair Campbell, 09:01)
• "Green turtles are now absolutely flourishing... it's actually a story when we tend to think the whole world's going the hell handbasket." (Rory Stewart, 10:18)
• "Ed Cullinan: We Saved the turtles. Please discuss." (Listener question, 10:18)
• "Even Tories can come on here and be treated with respect and welcomed in our new positive mode." (Alastair Campbell, 14:31)
• "In the 1970s... 3 positive to 1 negative. By 2000 and something it was 1 positive to 18 negative." (Alastair Campbell, 05:21)
• "In a world where there's so much less money for international development... [direct cash transfers] halve infant mortality in Kenya." (Rory Stewart, 35:07)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Segment | |-----------|:-------------| | 02:25 | Bad news bias in media & human psychology | | 07:42 | Good news: renewable energy's global progress | | 10:18 | Green turtle conservation success | | 11:44 | Political leaders offering hope | | 14:31 | Reform Party & electoral system change | | 23:24 | Nobel Peace Prize: Maria Corina Machado | | 28:00 | NHS: stories of positive care | | 31:29 | Education: teachers and schools making a difference | | 35:07 | Cash transfers' impact on child mortality in Kenya | | 36:35 | Listener challenge: pass one Private Member's Bill | | 41:17 | Science of positive thinking and gratitude |

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is intentionally optimistic yet realistic. Both hosts stay true to their engaging, sometimes bantering style, blending substance, disagreement, personal anecdotes, and moments of humor. They acknowledge challenges while elevating examples of progress and hope, in direct response to audience appeals for more positivity in political analysis.

---

Final Takeaways

• Despite the pervasiveness of negative news, there are substantial reasons for hope: progress in green energy, conservation, positive political leadership, NHS and education success stories, scientific breakthroughs, and the impact of grassroots interventions.
• The episode encourages listeners to notice progress, hold leaders accountable not just for failures but for successes, and actively practice gratitude—both personally and in how politics and society are discussed.

---

For more, visit The Rest Is Politics for bonus episodes, show notes, and community engagement.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com this episode is powered by Fuse Energy. Now more and more drivers are moving to electric as the economic and environmental arguments get much harder to ignore.

[Rory Stewart]

And the real benefit of an electric car comes when you can charge affordably at home. Saves time, saves money. Difference between a late night queue on the motorway and stepping outside in the morning to a car that's already full.

[Alistair Campbell]

And Fuse makes that shift very, very simple. It's already the fastest growing energy provider in the uk. They go further installing affordable smart EV chargers and linking them directly to their.

[Rory Stewart]

Smart EV tariff, which means the charger in your driveway is synced to the cheapest hours of the day so every charge costs less. Think of it as having an economist in the garage, but one who finally earns their keep.

[Alistair Campbell]

Fuse is not just supplying power, they're setting you up properly. Charger installed, tariff aligned, everything in place.

[Rory Stewart]

Switch to fuse today. Make driving electric cheaper. Find out [e-mail].

[Home Depot Advertiser]

The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.

[Rory Stewart]

Politics.

[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome to the Rest of Politics Question Time with me, Alistair Campbell and.

[Rory Stewart]

With me Ro Stewart.

[Alistair Campbell]

Now, Rory, we're going to try to do something different. Okay, so I was at this fundraiser I mentioned last week up in Nottinghamshire and a gentleman by the name of Jeff Chambers handed me a letter and he said he asked me to go back and listen to number 99 Tripp questions episode 25 minutes 22 seconds where you and I, Rory, both agreed with his suggestion that to help people's mental health we should occasionally do episodes where we try very hard to be positive.

[Rory Stewart]

My mother keeps reminding me this exactly telling me off that we haven't done this.

[Alistair Campbell]

On the day that he sent me this letter, he said he'd been looking at the front page of the BBC website. The first 18 stories were all negative. Corruption, wars, murders, cost of living and as he puts it, bloody Donald Trump. No wonder. So Many people are fighting depression. He then obviously listens very carefully, then reminded me that later a woman listener also said to us, could we try occasionally to be more positive and do more positive stuff? So we're going to try.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, we're going to try. Let me just. Before we get into it, because we will. Absolutely. This is going to be a podcast where we focus on the positive. But I just wanted to put the counterargument, why is it, I guess listeners listening might ask themselves, that journalists focus on the negative? And I've been trying to think about this a little bit and the beginnings of my thinking, you understand this much better than I do. So I'd like your views on this, having been a professional journalist for decades. Number one, I think it's partly human psychology. Lots of studies show that humans tend to over emphasize the negative and downplay the positive. And maybe that's something to do with early human evolution and saber toothed tigers and having to worry about threats. Number two, I think it's something that journalists often feel as part of their job in life, hold the government accountable, criticise, you know, Watergate, find out the bad news, bring it to the public. Number three, it's simply something that's driven by the fact that humans read negative stories much more than they read positive stories. Partly because psychology, partly is because of narrative structure. We love. If you look at, you know, it doesn't matter we're watching a comedy or a tragedy, you have a structure with crises in it, you know, down points and then up points, down points and up points. We talked about a little bit with the labor conference that it's inevitable that, you know, Starmer's falling, then Starmer's up with his speech, then Starmer's falling again, et cetera. Then that's reinforced by editors who look at how many clicks. So the fact that the public clicks on the negative stories more than the positive stories drives that. And then advertisers come in behind that and eventually you end up with a whole ecosystem that's basically arranged around negative stories, driven by human psychology, theories of political accountability, editors, advertising revenue and certain kinds of narrative structures. Back to you.

[Alistair Campbell]

There's an interesting PhD thesis somewhere in all that. I used to do a lot of speeches about this and I hope I get this stat right. If I don't, I'll correct it next week. But I remember Scottish University did an analysis of the British media and the positive to negative within the British press in, I think it was the 19 mid-70s, which was not a great time was 3 positive to 1 negative.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, in the 70s? Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

And by 2000 and something, it was 1 positive to 18 negative.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, no. Can I come in on this? I wonder whether.

[Alistair Campbell]

One thing I love, the way you get excited about a wave of negativity on a positive podcast.

[Rory Stewart]

I think one thing that may be going on in that story is the relationship between local newspapers and national. So big plug, which I'm going to take the opportunity for, for this book that I'm just about to publish called Middleland, which is an attempt to gather positive essays that I wrote for the Cumberland and Westmoreland Herald and local Cumbrian newspaper. And I'm writing about nature, I'm writing about society, I'm writing about culture. But my guess is that the Cumberland and Westland Herald probably would give someone like me much more space to write positive stories about what this village is doing in Cumbria, what Crosby Ravensworth's done on affordable housing, how we're doing stuff on renewable energy, how farmers are operating compared to the national press. In fact, I bet if you were to look at the Cumberland Westmoreland Herald, even today, and maybe this was true for your Tavistock newspaper, you'd find far more positive stories than negative.

[Alistair Campbell]

Probably. Probably. I also think that this trend is likely to worsen if people feel that their own place, be that a country or a town or anywhere else is in decline. And I think there is a sense. See, I think it's a mindset. I think you can be positive. So the column I write for the New World, I try not to make every item negative. I think it's a mindset. You've got to say to. You've got to kind of find.

[Rory Stewart]

Were the. You and Fiona, did you. You did positive stories, Right. You would have done positive stories.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

And what would they have been, typically?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, local boy, local girl, mates.

[Rory Stewart]

Good. Yep. Anniversaries, fairs, weddings. Yep.

[Alistair Campbell]

And all that sort of stuff. But also, yeah, you were. You're on the lookout for people who were doing nice things for their community. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

[Rory Stewart]

And why does that work less? Well, if you're editing the Daily Telegraph.

[Alistair Campbell]

Today, I'm not sure it does work less well. I think one of the reasons the newspapers themselves are in decline is because they're so relentlessly negative. You mentioned the Telegraph. I mean, the Telegraph used to be a serious paper. It's now become a sort of propagandist rag that anything that the Labour government does is terrible, terrible, terrible. They're all failures, they're all useless, they're all a waste of space. And it just. I think people turn off it. Anyway. Should we get some questions?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. Let me start with the first question to give you an opportunity to demonstrate your new. Your. Your new approach to positivity. One question for you to start you off is the route to growth through net zero and green energy and championing it after last week's fossil fuel news.

[Alistair Campbell]

This relates to the story we talked on briefly last week, that renewables have now overtaken coal in terms of providing electricity. That is good news. And this is a global thing. And what's really interesting is the extent to which the race is being won by China, India, Pakistan, so countries maybe, that you wouldn't be expecting to be doing this. And a lot of this is driven by your party's beloved market forces. So it's actually. The cost of solar is now reduced by 99% since 1975.

[Rory Stewart]

It's amazing. My dad put a solar panel on our house when we were living in Malaysia. Our shower was powered by solar and it was quite, quite a thing. And that's quite a fall. 99.9%. 97. 5. Incredible. Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'll give you another percentage growth in solar and wind met 100%. That's all extra electricity demand in the period that was covered by this survey that we're talking about.

[Rory Stewart]

Really impressive. Really impressive.

[Alistair Campbell]

And I've got to say, Roy, I'm going to give a shout out to your close friend and the one person you hero worship even more than Theresa May, namely the King. Both of them were at this event I was involved in last week at the Natural History Museum. And I thought this was positive because I was a bit worried. I'm worried about cop, but staying positive. I actually think COP is now a massive opportunity because the truth is Trump is driving the climate agenda backwards. And here we have the ridiculous Richard Trice constantly talking about net stupid zero, when it should be Richard stupid Tice. And COP is the opportunity to start to reverse that. And I was therefore very, very pleased that at this event, which was partly to launch this stuff about trees, which I've talked to you right before, we'll pick our favorite trees. And by the way, will you commit to doing it next year?

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Excellent. That's a yes. King Charles announced that he is not going to copy, but he's sending William on his behalf. And I would say that both of them have got. They're both passionate about this agenda. So I thought that was a very, very positive thing to do. Okay, Rory, one for you. Ed Cullinan. We Saved the turtles. Please discuss.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, this is genuinely a completely astonishing story that goes against everything we believe. So, basically, green turtles were at threat in the 1970s and the world began doing things that would have appeared quite small over 50 years. What did they begin doing? The US passed laws with shrimp nets for turtle exclusion. On shrimp nets, people began investing in developing habitats, particularly seagrass places like Costa Rica began protecting beaches where turtles nested. Australia began generating income from looking at turtles. So it's all the classic conservation things ranging from international law to community incentives done over 50 years. And blow me down, it's worked. Green turtles are now absolutely flourishing. And anyone who's interested there are the most beautiful, moving documentaries you can see on the lives of green turtles. The incredible odds against them from crabs trying to get them on the beach as they make it to the water. But it really should cheer you up because it's actually a story when we tend to think the whole world's going the hell handbasket from the green turtles point of view, compared to 50 years ago, the beaches are better, the nets are better, the habitat is better, the pollution is better.

[Alistair Campbell]

There you go. Let's hear from the green turtles. And I did hear about the green turtles on the BBC, so that was covered somewhere.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. Question for you. Go. Lydia Brown. This is really going to put you on your toes here. Which country and or political leader gives you most hope currently? Alison, where are you getting hope from?

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, Donald Trump, America.

[Rory Stewart]

That's it. I thought that was going to be the answer.

[Alistair Campbell]

No. Mark Carney, Canada. I loved the guy that we did on leading, the President of Guyana, President Ali. I think he was amazing, not least on the environment.

[Rory Stewart]

I liked your friend, the Prime Minister of Norway.

[Alistair Campbell]

He was good. Yeah. But I think I'm going to go to Australia. You and I last week online presented or were involved in the presentation of the Australian Politician of the Year awards.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, this is the McKinnon Leadership Awards, right?

[Alistair Campbell]

McKinnon Leadership, yeah. And it's good we talk about, you know, because I think a lot of the negativity that Jeff is complaining about comes from this fact that people and the media in particular, find it so hard to be positive about any politician. And the McKinnon Institute, they literally have this thing that's for positive political leadership. And our friend and leading interviewee, Peter Malinowskis, the premier of South Australia, he got an award. He was the state award winner. And he, of course, is the guy who's done taking on social media and also taking on political funding and the Federal Award went to. This is a really sort of on brand with the podcast as well. It went to two MPs a Liberal that's a Tory in their language, a liberal who's called Julian Lisa and a Labour MP called Josh Burns. And they got the award because ever since October 7th they have across the aisle fought a national campaign against antisemitism and they've had considerable success and they've become very close friends. And the final award went to a female MP who has been doing massive work on tax reform and again got respect from both sides. So I think Australia does. The Australian politics does have a. A lot going for it.

[Rory Stewart]

I also think that I've taken a lot of hope from some of our leading interviews. Not all of them but President of Georgia who we did. I thought she was amazing. Some of the American politicians, Richie Torres who we interviewed. Seth Moulton from Massachusetts I think inspiring wonderful figures.

[Alistair Campbell]

Mike Pompeo.

[Rory Stewart]

Mike Pompeo. No, he's not in my category but.

[Alistair Campbell]

I, I tell you what, a lot.

[Rory Stewart]

Of people enjoyed that interview for people loved it. I also really loved our interview with David Blunkett, our interviews with Ben Wallace on the Conservative side.

[Alistair Campbell]

In Jeff Chambers letter he said that why don't you do more good news stories occasionally that may inspire involvement. By the way I love your leading interviews that show a more human side of politicians I never thought I would like Jeremy Hunt.

[Rory Stewart]

There we are.

[Alistair Campbell]

There you go.

[Rory Stewart]

There we are.

[Alistair Campbell]

So even Tories can come on here and and be treated with respect and welcomed in our new positive mode. Right, this is a good question because we're going to stay positive even though it means talking about reform. Mark from Henley on Thames As a centre left Labour member I was struck by your recent question time discussion on the Green started wondering whether reforms rise could have a positive long term impact. First past the post is outdated disenfranchises much of the electorate. We often hear about the benefits of PR systems in northern Europe. Could reform's growth lead to a period where no single party wins outright majorities, shifts public opinion towards PR and fosters a more collaborative compromise driven politics that lowers the political temperature? I realise this would involve the rise of reform brackets bad and may take a generation but could it ultimately be one constructive consequence of their emergence? Good question.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes but for this to happen people like you and me need to pull our socks up and get on with really getting a constitutional convention together and getting all these parties around the table. I mean the lesson I think of Scottish independence and the work you did on Scottish Autonomy was that a few people in the early 80s began developing a lot of the ideas that you then picked up. So what needs to happen now, if we're serious, I mean, like you and I believe in, I don't know, let's say a New Zealand electoral system, Australian style, compulsory voting, et cetera. Right. We need to now start getting Lib Dems, some of the Labour MPs who are sympathetic towards that, goodness knows, maybe the Tories may begin to see this as their only hope to avoid total extinction. Right. Because the Tories will probably be able to scrape 15, 20% of the vote, but at current ways the maths works, they could end up with only 40 seats out of 650. Right. So start putting them together and really get that cross party coalition, develop those ideas, road test them so that actually if this turns out to be the case, we're ready to go with a proposal rather than just talking about it.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, it is a very interesting question because, of course, because of the vagaries of our electoral system. Reform and their predecessor parties have had a long history, over a few decades now, of having, you know, fairly sizable chunks of the national vote and very, very few seats. So at the moment they have five MPs having got whatever percentage it was.

[Rory Stewart]

Or the Lib Dems who got similar amounts to reform in percentage, but ended up with over 70 seats opposed. 5.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, but now we're in this position where, you know, I think actually it's entirely possible that reform have peaked and that they will come down a fair bit, but they're at a place now where they could get, you know, less than a third of the vote and end up with the most seats in Parliament. So there comes a tipping point in our system where if you just get past a certain point, you actually end up getting a lot more seats than your vote might in a PR system necessarily justify. And that's certainly the case with Labour getting a massive majority with a relatively small share of the vote, particularly if you take out all the people who didn't vote. So I think that this is where it's heading because we're now, the whole of Europe at the moment has this sort of sense of nobody wanting or trusting big parties but wanting a system where somehow people do kind of work together, cooperate together. Now, we've seen the downside of the concept of working together in the French system right now, and that isn't a straightforwardly PR system. Likewise in Germany, there is a lot of angst about the fact that It's PR that is leading or helping the rise of the AfD. But I think Mark's got a point. I think this is the direction of travel. But it's only going to happen, as you say, if one or both of the two big parties, or certainly sizable people within them decide we've got to move towards this and we've got to do it together.

[Rory Stewart]

And of course, one of the problems in the modern world is we are very binary and we like things to be totally good or totally bad. And the truth is, of course, that there are advantages and disadvantages to first past, supposed to and pr. So it's an argument where we have to say, broadly speaking, because we want to build a system that is more representative, that gives space to new parties to emerge, that encourages compromise, will go with pr. But we accept that there are some things that you'll lose along the way.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, listen, let's take a break and then come back and talk about. I think we should talk about the Nobel Peace Prize winner. The real one, not the Trump.

[Rory Stewart]

Excellent.

[Alistair Campbell]

This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

[Rory Stewart]

September new term. Darker evenings. Calendars filling fast. Everyone's getting organized, including the people watching your online activity.

[Alistair Campbell]

NordVPN stops that one tap and your connection is encrypted. Public Wi Fi at the station, coffee shop or library safe. No prying eyes, no one harvesting your data. Just you browsing away in peace.

[Rory Stewart]

Threat Protection Pro also blocks malicious links, scans, downloads, keeping your devices clean. Think of it as the bouncer for your browser. The shady stuff doesn't get past the.

[Alistair Campbell]

Door and it keeps prices honest. Online deals shift depending on where you appear to be. With NordVPN, you see the real numbers, not the inflated ones.

[Rory Stewart]

One account covers up to 10 devices, phones, laptops, even the tele or install it on your router so the whole household's protected without effort.

[Alistair Campbell]

To get the best discount off your NORDVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com restispolitics Our.

[Rory Stewart]

Link also gives you four extra months on the two year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the Episode Description box. This episode is brought to you by Revolut Business. The all in one account to manage your finances.

[Alistair Campbell]

Now, politics has its share of bad deals. Trade summits, late night negotiations. Often somebody walks away with the short straw.

[Rory Stewart]

And we've seen enough botch negotiations in Westminster to know what happens when numbers don't add up. Business is no different. Nothing empties your pockets faster than hidden.

[Alistair Campbell]

Exchange rates Revolut business changes that over 25 currencies exchange at the same interbank rates that banks use during market hours within plan allowance. With automatic orders and price alerts, the guesswork disappears.

[Rory Stewart]

Breaking into new markets feels possible, not perilous. Whether you're paying salaries in Dublin or suppliers in Sydney, your Money reaches over 150 global destinations fast without the fine print.

[Alistair Campbell]

Hangover business across borders kept simple for.

[Rory Stewart]

All the entrepreneurs and business owners out there. If you're ready to simplify your business, finances and exchange like an expert, now's the time to open a Revolut business account. Plus you'll unlock a 200 pound welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency if you sign up and add money to your account by the end of 2025. Just use the link in the description. Fees and terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Google. We won't fully realize the potential gains of AI unless we make it accessible and useful for everybody across the whole UK workforce. That's why Google, for example, are working closely with trade unions.

[Alistair Campbell]

AI and trade unions may not sound like the most natural of partners, but the union movement has got a proud history of supporting members from across the economy and preparing them for the ever changing world of work.

[Rory Stewart]

That's why Google partnered, for example, with the Community union in the UK on a People's first skills pilot called AI Works and it's designed to see how AI could help workers and ultimately create productivity benefits across the whole wider economy.

[Alistair Campbell]

Just a few hours of training could save members almost a month a year on routine tasks, time free for the work where their expertise really counts.

[Rory Stewart]

One community member, for example, working in a supported living home, said Gemini helped streamline paperwork so she could spend more time with residents.

[Alistair Campbell]

That's a very powerful story and it shows the positive impact AI can have on people's lives, making a real difference in the day to day.

[Rory Stewart]

Find out how Google's AI is helping fuel the UK's growth and transformation at Goo Gle Aiworks. Welcome back to the Rest is Politics. Question time with me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell. Question for you. Okay, Cameron Martin, do you agree that it's incredibly fitting that Maria Corina Machado receives the Nobel Peace Prize? And Andres, as a Venezuelan Brit, I'm incredibly proud and emotional. Tell us a little bit about the Nobel Laureate.

[Alistair Campbell]

There was so much sort of focus on would Donald Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize? And I think you and I both knew that was not going to happen. I actually think even if there is lasting Peace in the Middle, Middle East. He's done so much other terrible stuff for the. And for its stability, not least, undermine the United nations, that it shouldn't happen. But there's obviously a big campaign for next year now. But I thought it was a pretty inspired choice because if you think about, you know, Venezuela, a country that we talk about a fair bit, Maduro dictator, fraudulent elections, illegitimate rule, and she was able to inspire an opposition movement. She wasn't allowed to stand as a candidate. They had this other guy, Gonzalez, who's now living in exile. She stayed in Venezuela, incredible courage, and showed just what it takes to build a movement, to defeat somebody in a democratic election, and is keeping going, even though it's been taken away from her and living in hiding. There's even talk about whether she'll actually be able, for security reasons, whether she'll be able to go to Oslo to accept the award. I hope she does. So. Yeah, I thought it was a pretty.

[Rory Stewart]

Inspired choice, an interesting choice from Nobel Committee, because she's a sort of hero, I guess, for what in Britain would be called a centrist dance. She's somebody who's very much not going down the kind of Bukele, authoritarian route, but equally totally rejecting the sort of romance with Cuba and the left and kind of Venezuelan socialism. She's very much trying to stand for liberal values. She describes herself as a liberal. She's progressive socially, she's fiscally conservative. She's all those sort of things that the world used to be built around.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. I also think giving it to a woman at a time when Trump was sort of, you know, trying to show that his style of leadership is the only leadership that works. And she also, I think, did something very, very canny and very, very clever, is that she dedicated it to Venezuela, to the people of Venezuela, but also to Donald Trump for his support.

[Rory Stewart]

You saw his extraordinary interview where he was like, she called me, it's very nice. She said, I should have won it. I didn't say, well, why didn't you give it to me? SHOUT OUT Also because Britain has been doing surprisingly well with Nobel Prizes in science, so. So Demis Hassabis, the great AI researcher with protein folds this year, John Girdon, which is a nice story because he. He's still got his school report from 1944, where Gunn's quite old now, where his schoolmaster said that his ambition to become a scientist was totally ridiculous. It was kind of unimaginable that this man could ever make it as a scientist. And he's just won The Nobel Prize. And a real sign, I mean, what Gurdon proved, actually, which is a real inspiration to all of us, is that he wasn't somebody who was a schoolboy, was kind of naturally brilliant and IQ was off the chart. He wasn't a kind of child prodigy. He's somebody who's the sort of scientist. And Darwin used to say this about himself, that Darwin said, you know, I'm not the cleverest person I know, but it's the patience, the resilience, the time, the curiosity that they've just put in to becoming great scientists. And in a world which is increasingly kind of dominated by JD Vance or Elon Musk trying to show off about their IQ and imagining the whole thing is about natural talent. Girdin is a real testimony to patience, resilience, grace. Disproving teachers who assume that you can tell how well someone's going to do at 16.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'm going to test your memory of fascinating things that I reveal on the podcast. Which other prominent historical figure was born on exactly the same day as Charles Darwin? I've definitely mentioned this on the podcast before.

[Rory Stewart]

Cor blimey. Born on the same day as Charles Darwin. Prominent historical figure Tony Black.

[Alistair Campbell]

How could he be born on the same day as Charles Darwin? I mean, literally the same day.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, you don't just mean the birthday?

[Alistair Campbell]

I don't mean the birthday. I mean the scene. Same day.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, oh, right, right, right. Okay.

[Alistair Campbell]

One of the most famous historical figures. Two of the most famous historical figures were literally born on the same day.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, let me try. Abraham Lincoln.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, you remembered.

[Rory Stewart]

No, I guessed.

[Alistair Campbell]

Abraham Lincoln. Yeah, we're staying positive.

[Rory Stewart]

That required some rapid historical calculation.

[Alistair Campbell]

That was good.

[Rory Stewart]

Roughly went on.

[Alistair Campbell]

It would have been boring. Show that you do have quite a high iq. Well done, well done. JD Vance is wrong about your low iq.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay. Tybalt Grant, TRIP member, London. Everything in the media is so negative about politics in the uk. What are some positive things we can be pleased about?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, the Labour Party did put a thing out this week analyzing just how many of their manifesto commitments have already been fulfilled. And it was a lot more than the previous government. I would accept, however, that maybe a lot of the public don't yet know about them. So that's a communication.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us some of these lovely.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, shut up. No, because you're just being silly now and you're not taking Geoff's idea serious enough. I prefer the next next one in this section, which is mk. What's the best experience you've had with the nhs? It gets so much bad press, but does such good. And I totally agree with that. I've had two encounters with the National Health Service in recent weeks. One involving a part of my body that you don't want or need to know about.

[Rory Stewart]

We don't need to know about that.

[Alistair Campbell]

But the treatment was fantastic.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the second last week I went to the dentist and I had an impacted wisdom tooth and the dentist did some X rays and said, look, this I'm afraid, is going to require a proper oral surgeon. So I had to go to the uch. And as you know, Rory, because you've seen it, had experience with this before. I am a complete wimp in hospitals. I don't like hospitals, I don't like blood, I don't like needles, I don't like anything to do with it. And I then get the warning that you, you know, when they say, we're warning you this, we're warning you that there is, I think it was one in a thousand risk of my jaw being paralyzed.

[Rory Stewart]

That would not have been good for the podcast.

[Alistair Campbell]

What, my jaw not be able to move? No, Rory, you just have to get replacements. You've got to think positively, Rory. Get a replacement David Blunkett. So I said to this guy, I said, why are you telling me this? Just do the operation. Like, I'm not going to say no, just do it. And he said, well, I think it was something to do with your legislation that your government brought it. We have to, we have to tell people the risk. But anyway, it was the op and suddenly I got wheeled into the theater. It was a full operating theater with about 10 people in it. I suddenly started to panic. I thought, this is more serious than I thought. Anyway, the main doctor, dentist, you know, some people qualify as doctors and dentists. And it was a woman called Deepti Sinha. She was absolutely brilliant. She appointed a full time hand holder because I think she's. She said she had a complete wimp on her hands. And even though I was anesthetized, I was screaming and bawling and shouting and groaning and moaning. And at one point during a break, I said, this must be what it's like having a baby. I was kind of joking.

[Rory Stewart]

Did that go down well with the women?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I was joking, sort of. But anyway, as she finally extracted this awful tooth that had been giving me so much pain, she said, it's a boy. Anyway, they were wonderful. They were absolutely wonderful. And I totally agree with MK that the NHS does not get a positive enough press for the amazing stuff. It does Every day of the week.

[Rory Stewart]

There'S an amazing article in the Sunday Times by Jeremy Clarkson, who was beautifully eating humble pie, having said, the NHS is totally bust and a disaster. And then of course he had to go in for some operation again on a part of his body. He refused to disclose something and was like, it was absolutely wonderful. And I was just worried all the way through that they'd read the article and were gonna, you know, spike me. But in fact they looked after me incredibly well.

[Alistair Campbell]

It didn't stop him in a very non positive way saying that he hates Keir Starmer.

[Rory Stewart]

I don't really hate Keir Starmer. There's not much to hate about.

[Alistair Campbell]

But why? You do hear it a lot though. You hear a lot of people say really hate Keir Starme. Yeah. Do you not hear that?

[Rory Stewart]

No. I feel slightly underwhelmed, but my emotion is not one of hatred.

[Alistair Campbell]

But Jeremy Clarkson, who was probably writing about the NHS without knowing much about it, felt despite this new wonderful experience with the health service, he said he hated him.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I'd like to make a little shout out for what, definitely my book, the Middle Dispatched and Bordered. So anyone who wants good news stories about Cumbria and England can read my book. But more than that, a shout out to education. I've got an 8 year old and a 10 year old and the teachers. I'm in this particular teacher called Ms. Abbott, who's in my kids school, who is just so professional, wonderful, calm, and I'm really struck by all the ways in which teachers still are able to show such goodwill, energy. So much so, and I suppose this is the biggest testament, my 10 year old, when asked what job he wants to do, he wants to be a teacher.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, good, excellent.

[Rory Stewart]

There we are.

[Alistair Campbell]

That's good. Well, I was in a school yesterday in Hackney called the Haggerston School and I was there as part of something called Lunch for Democracy. And it's two women who have set up this organization, Lunch for Democracy, where they just go into schools and at lunchtime they take in nice food and they sit down with kids and talk about democracy and politics. And I went there and honestly, one, it was a good school. It was built in the 1960s, it was done up a bit under Building Schools for the Future. You know when you go into school and you just know whether it's well disciplined. It was well disciplined, it was calm and these kids were absolutely brilliant. And one in particular, there's a guy, there was a young boy there and when these politics discussions started and he was asked to Go along. He said, no, that's not for me, apologies, I don't know anything about that. And they said to him, well that's kind of the point. And you go. And honestly, I was throwing out questions about the way the legislative process works. He knew absolutely everything by word.

[Rory Stewart]

Here's another good news thing. I was talking to Joe Spence who used to be the headmaster at Dulwich and is now running schools partnerships.

[Alistair Campbell]

Nigel Farage is old school.

[Rory Stewart]

That's right. State sector with private sector. And what he was saying as somebody who'd been teaching in the private sector for 25 years is how blown away he is with the quality of the head teachers and the chief executives in the state sector. And he thinks in many, many ways they're streets ahead of the private sector, their combination. And he talked about a lot of them. He talked about somebody called Meg Chandler Pole, for example. But he's talking about people who really love education but also have a really good sense of resources management. He really feels actually that there's so much positive going on in British education. I know it's tough. I mean we hear from teachers all the time how tough it is, but just a sense that in many ways it's a kind of sea change. Better than it was 30 years ago.

[Alistair Campbell]

One of the teachers who was in charge of this event yesterday is called Charlotte Church and she did a degree, thought she'd go into the city and make lots of money, etc, etc, went to all these interviews and just decided this really isn't for me. I just don't, I don't kind of like the vibe here and went off and trained again and became a teacher and said she absolutely loves it.

[Rory Stewart]

Final one for me just, I was just sort of thinking about different personalities of teachers. So my 8 year old adores his teacher who's called Mr. Demel. And Mr. Demel was a sort of semi professional cricketer and he teaches maths and science. But he's also somebody who's able to conduct a 45 minute conversation with a 10 year old about Transformers. You know what Transformers are like? Cars that turn into robots. Robots turn to cars and you suddenly realize that the kind of genius of teachers being able to relate to children in ways that, you know, you or I might struggle to do. You wouldn't be able to do a 45 minute conversation about Transformers?

[Alistair Campbell]

I probably would.

[Rory Stewart]

You?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. I'm underestimated. I don't know if you notice, Robert, I tend to be able to talk about absolutely anything even when I know very, very little about it.

[Rory Stewart]

Question from Jamie. Good news stories internationally. Here's my big good news story, which I'm really excited by. A study on direct cash transfers. And, you know, there's something we've talked about in the past. The idea of giving $1,000 unconditional cash to somebody in extreme poverty in Kenya have now been demonstrated in a study of 10,000 people with proper academic randomized control. People who got cash, people who didn't get cash to halve infant mortality in Kenya. Halve infant mortality. If you're looking for a way to make sure that double the number of infants make it to the age of one, the most effective thing you can do is give cash unconditionally to the mothers. In Kenya, 35 out of a thousand children still don't make it to the age of one. It's terrifying, right? And in this experiment, cash given by GiveDirectly, the charity I used to be involved in, yes, it did many other things we talked about, but the most staggering thing is what it's done on infant mortality. Far better than any other intervention, far better than buying them bed nets, far better than vaccinating, far better than almost anything. And in a world where there's so much less money for international development and people looking for ideas, this is something that is very, very efficient because you need very few people. You don't need all the monitoring, you don't need all the warehousing. You can do it by transferring money to mobile phones. That is an amazing discovery in progress.

[Alistair Campbell]

Final question. It's from Kim Leadbeater.

[Kim Leadbeater]

So my question for Rory and Alistair is I was drawn tough in the Private Members Bill ballot last year and I feel put forward my Private Members Bill, which would give term LEO adults choice at the end of life, also known as the Assisted Darling Bill, and I'm really proud of that word. If they were an MP and they were drawn top out of the ballot, what piece of legislation would they put before Parliament?

[Alistair Campbell]

Did you ever get in the ballot?

[Rory Stewart]

No, I tried very difficult to get on the ballot. My friend Rebecca Harris tried to change the time she wanted to get, not get, a situation which she thinks we because of Scottish farmers. The clock's an hour off, so she was going to move. The only reason that conservatives like me got a bit uncomfortable is I think we were no longer going to be on Greenwich Mean Time.

[Alistair Campbell]

We like Greenwich Mean Time, don't we?

[Rory Stewart]

It sort of seemed like sort of a thing, at least that Bristol still got that.

[Alistair Campbell]

That's why we built the wonderful dome there.

[Rory Stewart]

Of course.

[Alistair Campbell]

Which we. Your amazing dome, where we always realized that was going to lead to us doing a podcast live performance.

[Rory Stewart]

That great O2 live performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

And we're on tour again. Did we mention that before?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Alistair Campbell]

What would you do now, though?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, we talked about constitutional reform, which I think is central.

[Alistair Campbell]

Give me a piece of major constitutional reform that you think you could get through as a private member's bill, because you really got to get. You got to get a lot of support in the House otherwise, because you know the constitution, the Lords are going to mess around with it as much as they can.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, okay, let me try something then, which maybe isn't as ambitious as that. Something to actually give votes of Parliament power. So I was so proud of the work that you guys got to get towards 0.7% expenditure on international development. I was very proud that the governments, I was in, the Cameron May governments leant into putting in legislation to put that 0.7% into law. And it's in law. Parliament's voted right. The government has to spend 0.7% on international amount. Has to. Boris Johnson suspended it for emergency reasons during COVID Rishi Sunak kept the suspension saying, but of course, as soon as fiscal conditions allow, we will obey the law. Labour came in saying, as soon as fiscal conditions allow, we will obey the law, and then proceeded to reduce international development spend from 0.7 to 0.3 and now effectively to 0.1 because it's being spent domestically. So I mean, obviously I'd like to say, don't say you're spending it on international development when you're spending 2/3 the money on a sovereignty.

[Alistair Campbell]

So what you're saying, you think there should have been a change of law. If they wanted to cut it, they should have brought in primary legislation to change it.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. I think it's a sort of flagrant, I'm afraid, ignoring the settled will of Parliament and a vote that they all voted on. Why are they not doing it?

[Alistair Campbell]

Do you think they should go to jail?

[Rory Stewart]

No, I'm not going to say they should go to jail, but if you're looking for something that members of Parliament will vote for an appropriate member's bill, reinforcing the sanctions against governments flouting Parliament to win Labour on side. I'd remind them of the way that Boris Johnson managed to flout ministerial code in his statements in Parliament to get good old Lib Dems on side. I'd use the International Development act as an example to get Conservative on side. I'D get any number of examples of how they think. Labour are not following through on their own legislation. But broadly speaking, if we're going to talk about the rule of law, let's give more weight to parliamentary legislation.

[Alistair Campbell]

So it'd be a law to force Parliament to obey the law, which they should be doing anyway.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. You've got it. Yeah. What's your private number spell?

[Alistair Campbell]

I think I would just. Because I think you've got to be realistic about what you can achieve. So there's lots of things I'd like to do. I'd love to sort of get to a place where we had 100% state education. That would be my dream for this country.

[Rory Stewart]

Would you also go 100% state health care provision? Why are you more relaxed about private health care? Because people like Wes treating, of course, say, well, you know, thank you to the people who have private health insurance because they're taking some of the burden off the nhs. But you don't say that about education, do you?

[Alistair Campbell]

No, I don't say that, no. I mean, I passionately believe in the National Health Service, but I just think it's developed into a place where that is just already happening so much way more than education. I'd say the thing about education is, to me, when we talk about education, I mean going to school, okay. And the concept of health care is developed as well, so there's all sorts of things that we would consider to be health that you don't necessarily get in the private, in the public sector. I think I would just take Peter Malinowskis legislation on social media and kids off the shelf from Australia and see if you can get that through. And this is stopping access to social media for children under 16, which I think would be hugely popular in this country, and I think it would be very popular with a lot of MPs, because a lot of MPs have teenage kids and they can't understand why they want to be on their phone rather than talk to them in the half a day that they see them when they go back to their constituencies.

[Rory Stewart]

Might get some of the MPs off their phones in the chamber. My final one then, for our positive thing is to remind people of all the recent research that demonstrates that positive thinking actually has an incredible impact on your health. There's been a study recently of 13,000 adults, 45 and over. They've covered for 15 years. People living with purpose are 28% less likely to be impaired by various dementia and cognitive decline issues. Right. So it has an incredible impact on your mind, impact on your body, and one practice that many listeners will be aware of. But the science around it is very striking and it's very simple to do and it makes such a huge difference and it relates to everything we do on podcasts, which is the benefits of gratitude, the benefit of waking up in the morning or just before you go to bed at night, noting down three things that you're grateful for. And as Shoshana would say to me, doesn't need to be kind of ponderous and pompous.

[Alistair Campbell]

Is that because she thinks there's a risk that you might be.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And both of us might be a little bit like, we like to be grateful for our children, grateful for our family.

[Alistair Campbell]

You are grateful.

[Rory Stewart]

It could be as much as, you know, I'm grateful for the croissant I had this morning or somebody smiled at me in the street. And there's a lovely Christian thing too, I was thinking about, which is if you think about the grace for what we're about to receive, make the Lord make us truly thankful. The. The idea that you can be grateful in advance. Right. That you. The gratitude isn't just about what you've received, but what you might be able to. And if we all manage to be a little bit more grateful, a little bit more positive, it's remarkable what that would actually mean for our lives.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, Rory, thanking you in anticipation of another podcast next week. Thank you.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, thank you. Thank you, Alison, in anticipation.

[Alistair Campbell]

And also thank you to Jeff for getting us to be a bit more positive in the Q and A than maybe we are most of the time.

[Rory Stewart]

I must say I'm grateful for the question, grateful for the podcast. Grateful in advance for next week.

[Alistair Campbell]

Thank you. Bye bye.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye bye.

[Alistair Campbell]

Alistair Campbell here now. We've just released a series on one of the most controversial and consequential people of the past 50 years, Rupert Murdoch.

[Rupert Murdoch Documentary Speaker]

I think you can argue that he is the most consequential figure of the second half of the 20th century. He holds power longer than anyone else in our time and it's meaningful power. It's phenomenal power.

[Alistair Campbell]

Power without responsibility. The prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages. This is where he becomes not just a newspaper owner, he becomes a major newsmaker.

[Rupert Murdoch Documentary Speaker]

Fuck Dacre publish. There is always a priority premium on bringing him gossip. I don't know what you mean by down market and upmarket.

[Rory Stewart]

That is so English class ridden snobbery. When you talk like that, how you.

[Rupert Murdoch Documentary Speaker]

Get it doesn't make any difference. Actually, to be perfectly honest, Whether it's true or not doesn't make much difference.

[Alistair Campbell]

There is a massive, massive scandal brewing. This was industrial illegal activity. And that, I think, is what really cuts through to the public and things. You, you people are really, really bad.

[Rory Stewart]

I would just like to say one sentence. This is the most humble day of my life.

[Rupert Murdoch Documentary Speaker]

There is no Donald Trump without Fox News. His dream was always to elect a president of the United States. The bitter irony is that that turned out to be Donald Trump, a man he detests. He is conquering the world. There is nothing less than the this methodical, step by step progress to take over everything.

[Alistair Campbell]

To hear more, sign [e-mail].