469. Is Starmer Out of Moves? Asylum Gamble, Tax Chaos, and Open Infighting

Summary

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The Rest Is Politics – Episode 469: Is Starmer Out of Moves? Asylum Gamble, Tax Chaos, and Open Infighting

Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart

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Episode Overview

This episode sees Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart dissecting one of the most tumultuous periods in recent British politics. Hot off a nationwide live tour, the duo breaks down sagging Labour support, chaos over fiscal policy, the party's contentious new asylum reforms, and the spectre of Nigel Farage’s rise. They also grapple with Labour’s leadership questions, public mood, the political response to immigration, and the dangers of populism both in the UK and the US.

The tone is frank, often frustrated, and peppered with moments of humor and urgency, as both hosts question whether either major UK party has a viable plan and warn of the global drift toward authoritarian populism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Labour’s Waning Support and Leadership Crisis

• Audience Reaction on the Tour

  • During their live tour, the hosts engaged with over 10,000 people and used live polling. In Manchester, only about a dozen in a crowd of 2,600 wanted Keir Starmer to lead Labour into the next election, with Andy Burnham receiving overwhelming support locally. (05:29–06:34)
  • In audience polls pitting Starmer against Nigel Farage, results were “almost 52-48,” leaving Campbell unsettled:
    • “It was a very, very close call.” (06:34)
    • “I hated to see that...52-48, which of course...triggers you and makes you want a second referendum.” (07:06, Campbell)

• Labour's Struggles & Tax Policy Confusion

  • Labour is reeling from bad polling and news coverage, as well as confusion around Rachel Reeves’ shifting tax plans.
  • Reeves suggested taxes would rise, but later stepped back, causing uncertainty.
  • Audiences overwhelmingly expect Labour to increase income tax but are not bothered by potential manifesto breaches (09:05–10:13).
    • Notable Quote: “I think everybody has concluded that that tax commitment from Labour was mad, they shouldn’t have made it before the election.” (10:13, Stewart)

• Leadership Instability and Open Infighting

  • Persistent rumors swirl about Starmer’s future, with chatter of alternatives like Angela Rayner and Wes Streeting.
  • Labour’s mechanisms make leadership challenges difficult, unlike the Conservative “1922 Committee” system:
    • “The mechanics of getting rid of Starmer [are] difficult.” (21:21, Stewart)

• The Mandate for Big Change

  • Both hosts argue Labour must be bolder, riskier, and present a real strategy for growth.
    • “They've got to do something radical.” (03:41, Stewart)
    • “You’ve got to do big things in politics.” (22:45, Campbell)
  • Campbell: “He has got resilience. That has got to be turned into confidence. And the confidence has got to be turned into courage.” (23:09)

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2. Labour’s Fiscal Dilemma – Tax and Growth

• Rachel Reeves’ Budget Headaches

  • Reeves faces a “20 billion black hole” and little fiscal room for maneuver, even after reportedly “better than expected” signals from the Office for Budget Responsibility.
  • Both warn that piecemeal tax rises (“pick off a bit of tax here, a bit of tax there,” 11:47–13:04) are politically dangerous and economically insufficient.

• Business Anxiety & Capital Flight

  • Possible tax rises on entrepreneurs and property make Labour donors, MPs, and business types consider moving abroad.
    • “If the budget hits me as hard as the last one did, then I’m...looking to go.” (15:19, Campbell, paraphrasing a donor)
    • Stewart: “Capital is much more mobile than left wing economists want to believe...” (15:43)

• Lack of Credible Growth Vision

  • When asked about Labour’s growth plan, business audiences “laughed.”
    • “That’s a terrible place to be in.” (02:04, Campbell; 19:03, Campbell)
  • Stewart: “Labour is at risk of defaulting to its comfort zone, which is squeezing business, entrepreneurs, wealth creators, and...abandoned...traditional pro business, pro market deregulation policies.” (14:37)

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3. The Asylum Policy Gamble

• Shabana Mahmood’s New Asylum Plan

  • Dominating media headlines, Labour proposes tightening rules on appeal, making status temporary and harder to achieve, and increasing “safe country” listings. (25:53–28:07)
  • Aims to reduce crossings by making UK less attractive—but Stewart and Campbell question effectiveness.

• Gerald Knaus’ Return Deal

  • Hosts cite Gerald Knaus (architect of the EU-Turkey deal) who suggests real deterrence only comes from automatic third-country returns (e.g., to France or Germany), not harsher conditions.
    • “If you make that journey, knowing you get sent straight back...that is what happened with Turkey.” (28:07, Campbell)
    • "It works." (28:47, Stewart)

• Parliamentary Reaction

  • Campbell watched the entire Parliamentary debate; notes less Labour backbench revolt than expected and some praise even from Tories, but deep unease from Labour’s left and reform critics accusing Labour of “auditioning to join reform.” (29:11–31:54)
  • Mahmood praised for her detail and grip, but many see this as playing into Reform’s hands.

• Limits and Risks

  • Stewart doubts the plan will meaningfully cut numbers:
    • “People whose claim is rejected and who are not deported...choose to go into the grey economy and then they’re in a very difficult situation.” (33:23)
    • Campbell: “Many have done great things after settling—what if they had been forced to return?” (36:41)

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4. The Global Context: Populism, Farage, and the American Example

• Farage’s Meteoric Ascent

  • Farage, recently written off as a fringe figure, now polls as possible Prime Minister in some “informed, politically engaged” audiences. (07:19–08:18)
  • Campbell: Labour must take the fight to Farage by painting his true connections to Russia, Trump, the BBC attacks, and his “best mate” going to jail for treason:
    • “Farage is utterly beatable if they start attacking him properly...It is closeness to Russia, it is supporting Donald Trump...best mate...about to go to jail for, effectively, treason...” (24:09–25:04, Campbell)

• Internal Party Dysfunction

  • Internal Labour briefings/leaks “not done through Starmer’s permission” must stop (25:13): “There are too many of them who go around thinking they're in a movie of their own making...Stop doing it, shut up.” (25:53, Campbell)

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5. The Rise of Christian Nationalism and the “Fascist” Debate in America

• Audience Polls on US Fascism

  • In live show polls, over 70% of every audience (82% in Glasgow) agreed the US could be witnessing the birth of a “fascist” state under Trump. (43:41–44:09)
  • Stewart: “I use words like proto fascist...it doesn’t mean what he’s doing is not unbelievably dangerous and troubling.” (44:09)

• Christian Nationalism Explained

  • Stewart explains Trump’s coalition: “tech bros,” the broad MAGA base, and Christian nationalists—prompted by Nick Fuentes’ recent interview.
  • Fuentes described as a genuine fascist: “Jews are responsible for every war in the world and they must be absolutely annihilated when we take power.” (45:12, Stewart)
  • Large swathes of Republican staffers reportedly listening to extremist voices.

• Fascist Principles Checklist (per Umberto Eco)

  • Campbell and Stewart walk through Eco’s fascism traits, showing how many are visible in US/MAGA rhetoric: cult of tradition, fear of difference, machismo, anti-intellectualism, and more. (51:46–54:08)
    • “That is the birth of fascism.” (54:08, Campbell)

• Application to British Context

  • Stewart: “We need to acknowledge that’s what Tommy Robinson is about: 100%.” (54:08–54:24)
  • Personal experience: Stewart details being targeted with abuse for challenging Robinson and his supporters.
  • Farmers, donors, and even “wealthy, educated people” are asking “do you think we need a Trump?” (54:52–55:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Labour’s predicament:
  • Campbell: “I was to get it out of my system would regularly be sort of banging my head against a wall and just sort of, what the fuck is going on?” (08:18)
• On manifesto honesty:
  • Stewart: “Nobody thinks it’s a good idea to just plow ahead with a stupid plan for four years, because you said you were going to do it.” (10:13)
• On Starmer’s qualities and challenge:
  • Campbell: “He has got resilience. That has got to be turned into confidence. And the confidence has got to be turned into courage.” (23:09)
• On migration solutions:
  • Stewart: “We cannot survive as liberal governments unless we put proper controls in our borders, which are humane and just.” (39:48)
• On the American scene:
  • Campbell: “That is the birth of fascism.” (54:08)
  • Stewart (on Tommy Robinson): “We’re endlessly whitewashing...I’m getting more and more aggravated about this.” (54:25–55:45)
• On Impersonators:
  • Campbell: “I do have a very hard...Andrew Dunn who did me said, you’re very hard to get because your voice keeps changing a bit.” (59:12–59:37)

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Memorable Segment Timestamps

• Audience polling shock (Labour vs. Farage): 05:29–07:14
• Labour’s tax confusion dissected: 09:05–11:43
• Business and donor anxieties revealed: 15:06–16:34
• Strategy for growth: “They laughed.” 19:03
• Open infighting and leadership question debate: 19:43–22:13
• Asylum reform details and critique: 25:53–34:15
• Gerald Knaus’ migration model: 28:07–29:03
• Farage threat and attack lines: 24:09–25:04
• Fascism in America/Umberto Eco checklist: 51:46–54:08
• Stewart’s clash with Tommy Robinson: 54:24–54:52

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Summary Takeaway

This episode reflects a UK political landscape in flux and under pressure, with Labour apparently “out of moves” and a populist wave threatening traditional party lines. The hosts vigorously challenge Labour’s credibility, message discipline, and readiness to confront Farage head-on. The asylum reforms are recognized as both politically savvy and potentially unworkable. Parallels are drawn between Britain’s and America’s vulnerability to populism and proto-fascism, underlining the episode’s central warning: without radical, confident action, the centre left risks being swept away by movements far outside liberal democratic norms.

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Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

My guess is they're going to lose the next election anyway. They've got to do something radical.

[Alistair Campbell]

It was a particularly grim week. To get it out of my system would regularly be sort of banging my head against a wall.

[Rory Stewart]

I would say that labor is at risk of defaulting to its comfort zone, squeezing business entrepreneurs, wealth creators.

[Alistair Campbell]

We asked the business audience recently, if I asked you to explain Labour's strategy for growth, what would you say? And they laughed. That's a terrible place to be in this episode is Powered by Fuse Energy.

[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

Welcome to the Restless Politics. Me, Rory Stewart.

[Alistair Campbell]

And me, Alistair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And Alistair is shivering because he's just been in a freezing pond in Hampstead at 7 in the morning. It's the temperature. He's down sort of three degrees. Is that right?

[Alistair Campbell]

It was quite cold. It was all right. It wasn't as nice as St Andrews. That was the best swim of last week.

[Rory Stewart]

This was the famous moment where Elsa emerges from the beach and some woman walking down the beach says, I always knew you were crazy, but now I know for sure it's true.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was the only person. It was right by the. The famous Chariots Of Fire running scene.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, that one.

[Alistair Campbell]

Did you.

[Rory Stewart]

Were you tempted to go for the.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no, no, no. I just dipped in and dipped out. There's a very nice guy from the hotel called Pat who drove me down there and just plunged in. It was good. It was beautiful.

[Rory Stewart]

Talking about cold water and unpleasant experiences. Your friend, Keir Starmer.

[Alistair Campbell]

Cl. But I get where you're going. Well, we'll definitely talk about that, but I think actually we should talk about UK politics in the context of where we've just been, because you and I have literally in the last week, been around the country, from Bournemouth to Glasgow via London and Manchester, and done these five pretty big shows. We've spoken to thousands of people and we should talk about that. We should talk about Shabana Mahmood and the reforms that she's brought forward on the asylum system, which are dominating debate, should we say. And then I know you want to talk about MAGA in the contest of.

[Rory Stewart]

This fascist Fuentes, Nick Fuentes, and Christian nationalism. And I'm going to try to see if we can get into what on earth this thing. Christian nationalism is because it's a very, very American phenomenon. So a little explainer for British and international listeners, maybe.

[Alistair Campbell]

Excellent. So, yeah, let's kick off, though, with Labour. So we have spoken to maybe well over 10,000 people. And also we had this mod con live polling thing, so they were able to get onto a QR code and vote as we went. And it wasn't pretty viewing if you were a Labour supporter.

[Rory Stewart]

No. To summarise, we asked, for example, in Manchester, what percentage the audience thought that Keir Starmer should lead Labour into the next election. I reckon I counted maybe 12 hands out of an audience. We had 2,600 people in that theatre. You thought maybe a bit more, but anyway, very, very small numbers.

[Alistair Campbell]

There was a bit of an Andy Burnham thing going on there.

[Rory Stewart]

There was an Andy Burnham thing, which also.

[Alistair Campbell]

Which is interesting.

[Rory Stewart]

Very interesting. We asked who thought worst reading should lead Labour and it was decent hands, overwhelming support for Andy Burnham, which I thought was a good sign for Andy Burnham, because often a very good way of judging how someone does is by looking how their local constituency or their local city thinks about them. And there's been a concerted attempt, understandably, from Keir Starmer's team to discredit Andy Burnham and to mock him and to rubbish him. And I've got Labour MPs calling me saying, you know, we don't even know who this guy is. He's some old guy who left Parliament years ago and he's relevant to. It certainly was true in that audience in Manchester, a very, very warm feeling towards Anti Burnham.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think the other question that we asked them was when we'd sort of talked about how disappointed they were with the government, we asked them, okay, let's just say the choice at the next election is between Keir Starmer still leading the Labour Party, and Nigel Farage leading Reform uk. Regardless of what you want, and I imagine that most of the people who come to see us would prefer labor to reform. Nonetheless, it was a very, very close call.

[Rory Stewart]

And I think actually in Manchester it was something like 54, thought Farage. 46, stammer.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, I hated to see that when they were all totted up over the whole Tour. It was 52, 48, which of course.

[Rory Stewart]

Leads you to, triggers you and makes you want a second referendum.

[Alistair Campbell]

It makes you want to stand up and make speeches about Brexit.

[Rory Stewart]

That's another thing about how astonishingly unpredictable and unstable British politics is. I mean, it's difficult almost to remember now that only a few months ago Nigel Farage was seen by many people as a fringe figure who had tried to stand for Parliament on a number of occasions unsuccessfully, and who had gone through three different parties and had famous public breakouts. And the head of his party in Wales was under investigation for taking bribes.

[Alistair Campbell]

From the Russian jail on Friday.

[Rory Stewart]

Going to jail because he's pled guilty. Which means that we actually, in a way, are deprived of some of the details that we would have had if we'd gone to court. And now a highly politically interested, motivated, educated audience now thinks in many different parts of the country, including Scotland, that Farage has a very decent chance of being the next prime minister. And that, I think, will connect us also to the question of what Labour does about immigration, which is, of course, one of the big things which is driving people to vote for fresh.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think the reason why things were particularly grim last week was because it was a particularly grim week. And I was, as you know, because you saw me in these private moments in our dressing room before, where I was to get it out of my sister would regularly be sort of banging my head against a wall and just sort of, what the fuck is going on? So you have these two things coming on top of each other. First of all that we talked about last week, this thing of these crazy briefings from number, saying that Kirsten was on jobs under pressure. Wes treating's about to make a challenge. I mean, nuts. Followed by this hokey cokey on tax. So Rachel Reeves, who'd been out rolling the pitch, essentially saying to the country without, in not so many words, we're gonna put your income tax up.

[Rory Stewart]

And just to confirm again, we asked these audiences, you know, usually audiences of 2,500 people, how many of you think that she's gonna raise income tax? And almost every hand would go up. And I remember saying at the time, she's rolled the pitch, the public's expecting income tax to go up. And then we'd ask how many of you are worried about the fact she's breaking a manifesto commitment? Very few hands go up.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was stunned by that.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, and essentially, I think the calculation was that what really matters for Labour at the next election is a country that's doing well, an economy that's doing well, and it wouldn't defend them to say, well, we kept the manifesto, but the economy's all screwed up, but does.

[Alistair Campbell]

It mean that we're now in a state where the general regard for politics is such that people are not even shocked if you break a central manifesto promise? I was genuinely shocked by that. I mean, I Think in Manchester and Glasgow, it was like a smattering of. When I said. And I really laid it on, I said, how many people in the audience think it would be really, really bad if the Labour Party broke a central manifesto pledge on tax? And it was just the smattering of hands went up.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, well, I suspect it's because there's another part of politics where people want politicians to admit that they got it wrong. I mean, nobody thinks it's a good idea to just plow ahead with a stupid plan for four years, because you said you were going to do it. And I think everybody has concluded that that tax commitment from Labour was mad, they shouldn't have made it before the election. And clearly, if they're not able to cut welfare. And I think maybe the backstory in this is that Labour's DNA is more left wing, it didn't want a new form of mini austerity. I mean, without replaying the whole leading interview with Rachel Reeves, if you remember that interview, a lot of it was my saying, how on earth are you going to do this without raising tax or borrowing more? I mean, what you seem to be offering is a kind of continuation of austerity. And she tried to deny that before the election. Of course, the logic of that was clear afterwards and must have been clear even to Labour activists and MPs before the election, that there was absolutely no way they could both say, we're not going to raise tax, we're not going to borrow more, and say, we're going to get away from 15 years of Tory austerity.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. If it is true, and I still have my doubts, because I think it's one of those questions that in theory you might say, okay, but when it happens, it'd be such a big thing and the Tories and Reform would hang it around their necks from here till polling day if they do break a fundamental manifesto promise on tax. But I think where I worry from their perspective, if they have now gone back on the idea of race, raising one of the big three taxes, and.

[Rory Stewart]

It sounds like they have.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right, which it sounds like, because it'd.

[Rory Stewart]

Be completely insane to go. I mean, if she now raises income.

[Alistair Campbell]

Taxes, if we do hokey cokey cokey, then I think that's really pretty lethal. There is, I think there will be stuff in the budget that we don't know about. Although it's interesting yesterday, I know we're going to talk about Shabana Bermuda again in a moment. Yet again, a major government policy announcement was preceded by the speaker complaining about the extent to which Parliament hears about everything last. And I think there is something to do with that in the Budget. And I saw Mel Stride, the Shadow Chancellor, even had an urgent question on why do we keep reading about what's in the budget in the media when it should be Parliament first? But I think if we do end up going back to this tax tweet here, this tax tweet there, the risk with that is you end up with a kind of collection of measures which won't necessarily raise you loads of money. Maybe if they change the thresholds it will, but otherwise won't raise you loads of money. But you set off all sorts of major campaign groups that then try and go for you. Whereas, at least with a income tax breach of the manifesto that may be, people are clear about what it is, you can have an argument as to why you're doing it. I worry if they go back into the sort of pick off a bit of tax here, a bit of tax there, that it won't work politically.

[Rory Stewart]

I agree. And I think there's an another problem, which is that, as usual, Rachel Reeves leaves herself very, very little headroom. I mean, the story from the beginning is she somehow had convinced herself before the election that they wouldn't need to raise employers national insurance because there was enough money. Then she found there was a 20 billion black hole that she claimed she'd found from the Tories. So she used that as a reason to put up bni. Then it turned out that of course, the OBR figures were worse than she thought. And even at the time, people like Paul Johnson were saying this is very, very risky, she's being much too optimistic. Public finances can go wrong by 10, 20 billion very, very easily in the course of a year. She hasn't left herself much headroom. And sure enough, that's turned out to be true because it turns out she needs tens of billions more. The risk is that she will put together these small taxes and they will leave her still with not enough headroom. So she'll then be under pressure, and again in another budget, to either borrow more or tax more, rather than getting the thing dealt with. And finally, I think the problem with the taxes that she's likely to pursue is they're almost certainly likely to be targeted disproportionately towards businesses, employers, entrepreneurs, who.

[Alistair Campbell]

Are already on the rampage.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, if I, you know, if I was going to return to our traditional position of disagreeing agreeably, which maybe we were criticized a little bit for in the show, we didn't disagree Enough, Disagree.

[Alistair Campbell]

Enough. You still got four out of five star in the Herald, even though they said that was a fault. We didn't disagree enough.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, let me try to disagree then. I would say that labor is at risk of defaulting to its comfort zone, which is squeezing business, squeezing entrepreneurs, squeezing wealth creators, and that it's not doing what is a massive space now in the center ground, which has been abandoned by labor, abandoned by the Tories, abandoned by reform, which is traditional pro business, pro market deregulation policies to get the economy going.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was a charity thing the other night and there were. There was a guy there, he was a Labor donor. And as you know, we've talked before about this alleged exodus of all the wealth to Dubai, to Milan, wherever it might be.

[Rory Stewart]

And traditionally, while I've been grumbling about it, you've tended to say this is a bit overplayed.

[Alistair Campbell]

I've said this, this is basically the tax avoidance industry at work. And I think there's some merit in that. However, this guy who's a Labor donor said to me, if the budget hits us me as hard as the last one did, then I'm never going to live in Dubai. But I am looking to go and I think they've got to be careful.

[Rory Stewart]

I'm hearing this even from Labour and Peace, to be honest. A Labour member of Parliament was explaining to me from where he was the number of people who are now actively looking at moving to Milan, in Italy, to Portugal, to Dubai. And part of the problem that Rachel Reeves is dealing with, for better or for worse, is that capital is much more mobile than left wing economists really want to believe. They basically want to believe that you can keep taxing these people and they're not going to go. And the truth of the matter is, particularly with remote working and zoom and new legal structures, it's much easier than it was in the past. People moved that. There's friction. You've got to move your kids from school, you've got to move your home. But people are definitely willing to do it. If they're high earners and this is costing them a lot of money, they will move just to go through some.

[Alistair Campbell]

Of the numbers on some of these measures that are being talked about. And I think what may have happened, by the way, is I think the Office of Budget responsibility, George Osborne's creation, which I think has just become too powerful within this debate. It's almost like, you know, they decide what the budget should do. And I think what's happened is that Rachel Reeves has maybe had a Slightly better than expected assessment by them of what her. What she can do. And that's why she decided maybe we don't do tax. But if you go through some of the stuff they're talking about, the measures they're talking about on pension tax relief under 2 billion, the, the. Some possible changes to council tax and depending what it is, it's impossible to work out what is. But we're not talking, we're not talking.

[Rory Stewart]

Multi, multi billions, we're talking here, I think we believe something like a few thousand pounds on the most expensive properties. But the interesting question is, is it a few thousand pounds or is it tens of thousands of pounds a year on the most expensive properties? If it's a few thousand, she won't generate much money. If it's tens of thousands of pounds on the most expensive properties in London and the southeast, then you do begin having a big effect on things like the property market, because you have around here in London, older couples who have a valuable home but are living on a pension don't have much income. If they're suddenly having to pay tens of thousands of pounds extra a year to keep their home, they'll put those homes on the market. And the London, central London property market, some indicators down 30%, some of the prices are where they were now 10 years ago.

[Alistair Campbell]

And on the mansion tax, again, totally depends on what it is. But if it's roughly the sort of thing that Nick Clegg was trying to get through the coalition back in the day, then you're talking low number of billions. So these are all the sort of things that are being talked about, attacks here, attacks there. And I mentioned to you that Harry Harman had got in touch with me, saying, I can't believe you're so relaxed about breaking the manifesto on tax. I'm not remotely relaxed about it. I think there's always a political price to pay. But I think if we have another budget where it looks like, you know, what will be identified as stealth tax, sleight of hand, all the stuff that goes with budget, you're far better to, given that one of their big things is we're going to stop ticking plaster politics, rip the plaster off and go for it. And the big thing is they've now got to develop a real sense of a strategy for growth, because I think that's the other thing that just hasn't felt like the. We asked the business audience recently, if I asked you to explain Labour's strategy for growth, what would you say? And they laughed. That's a terrible place to be in.

[Rory Stewart]

I think you're correct that if they'd broken the manifesto commitment, they would have been hammered for it for the next three and a half years by the opposition. Labour can't be trusted. They said they wouldn't raise tax and they did. But my guess is they're going to lose the next election anyway. Keir Starmer's net popularity is down at minus 52. Even within labour members, more than half of them now think that their leader should go before the next election. They've got to do something radical. My suspicion is if they lose the next election, it's more likely to be because they've not made the right policy decisions, don't have the right vision, haven't got the country growing, than this attack line, that they've broken their manifesto.

[Alistair Campbell]

And I guess the point, the reason why it's inevitable you will get leadership chatter when you have gone from a landslide to these catastrophically low poll ratings right now. I saw a poll the other day and you've got to be wary with these polls because they just, you know, some of them are just. They're push polling. There's one the other day where the Greens were ahead of Labour. When we were in Scotland, there was a by election in Ayr, local by election while we were there, and Labour came third behind the SNP and reform. So this is not. I'm not pretending this is good. And there is no doubt there are MPs who has. Because this is what happens in politics and is that if this is like this, then leadership chatter is inevitable. It's inevitable. The question then is how you handle it.

[Rory Stewart]

And two things which again strikes me about Labor. One is that it's much more difficult for Labour to get rid of a leader than it is for the Tories. Famously, listeners will remember with the Conservatives, we just have to put in a certain number of letters to the chairman of this mysterious 1922 committee, and that is enough to trigger a leadership election. And that's one of the reasons why Tories have been through, you know, whatever it is, five prime ministers.

[Alistair Campbell]

And that's one of the reasons why Labour got elected with a landslide, because the public was sick and tired of them being changed and, you know, just change the faces at the top.

[Rory Stewart]

So Tory's risk is we change the leaders too often and too ruthlessly. You know, fantasy. Liz Truss lasted, whatever it was, 47 days. But the risk on the labor side is the problem that you had with Jeremy Corbyn, which is that the majority of Labour MPs came out publicly saying, we want rid of this guy, and they couldn't get rid of him.

[Alistair Campbell]

So then they have to stand in the election and say, this guy's fit to be Prime Minister.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. So the mechanics of getting rid of Stammer, difficult. And the second problem is, even if they got rid of him and a candidate run, somebody like me is all for, you know, somewhat like West Streeting, if you're Michael Gove, you sort of support Shabana Mahmoud. Right. But traditionally, those kind of blue labor candidates, those kind of candidates on the right of the Labour Party struggle to get through.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

So it's not guaranteed that if Keir Starmer went, you're going to end up with, you know, Wes Streeting or Andy Burnham. You might end up with more exotic.

[Alistair Campbell]

Which is not easy in these circumstances. And Angela Rayner, there's definitely a sense of Angela Rayner still thinks she's, you know, could be in there. So the question of the then for Kears is how do you resolve this situation now, assuming that he's not going to throw in the towel? I actually thought, though I say it myself, Rory, I thought in the couple of speeches I made on his behalf, neither of which he would make.

[Rory Stewart]

Just to explain for people who didn't come to the live show, Alistair gave two speeches. In one of this, in his audition to be Director General of the BBC, basically, he had Keir Starmer say, we love the BBC. We're defending it. And by the way, Donald Trump, you can bog off and leave us alone.

[Alistair Campbell]

And they loved it.

[Rory Stewart]

They loved it. And the second speech that you gave was a speech saying, I'm now admitted that Brexit was a catastrophic mistake and I am going to introduce legislation for a referendum to rejoin the European Union. And that also was extremely popular.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, well, you got to do big things in politics.

[Rory Stewart]

Got to do big things in politics. That second one, I mean, if we really want to get a debate going with listeners, I imagine a number of people, both in the Labour Party and in number 10, would explain why. That might be a very, very risky strategy. But certainly it woke the audience up.

[Alistair Campbell]

It might be a risky strategy, Rory, but how's the current strategy going?

[Rory Stewart]

You see, that's my view on the breaking the manifesto and the tax rises too. They've got to take some risks somewhere.

[Alistair Campbell]

But I do think the quality that he has, which now has to be turned into something much more positive. He has got resilience. He has got resilience. That has got to be turned into confidence. And the confidence has got to be turned into courage. And I think it's that sense of they don't look confident at the moment. Now you could say, well, it's obvious why they wouldn't. But actually, they've got a big majority still use it. Be confident about making big change. Address you. I know you're obsessed with AI. I sort of worry that since Peter Kyle's been shifted, that debate, which is massive, it was leading to BBC News today with the head of Google talking about, you know, AI might not be. Where is our government in that debate? Where's our government in the debate about some of these big challenges? What did we really. Yes, Keir Starmer went to the cop. What did we really hear about the UK government and climate? These big, big issues. And the other thing, lesson from Mandani, never, ever, ever, ever lose sight of this issue of what he calls affordability and we call the cost of living. I just feel that there is an awful lot still to play for the volatility that has led to them going like that. The same could happen to Farage. I honestly think, and we discussed this at all of the shows, because I absolutely believe this to my core. Farage is utterly beatable if they start attacking him properly. And that doesn't mean doing all the stuff, oh, he's never, in part, he's never in Clacton. It's all that you attack him on what he is, who he is and what he stands for. And that is closeness to Russia. It is supporting Donald Trump while he's trying to destroy a great British institution like the BBC. It's having a best mate who's about to go to jail for, effectively for treason. Hit him on the stuff that the public are going to say, oh, I didn't know that. How many people of this informed audience that came to us, we asked them, who's heard of Nathan Gill? Hardly anybody.

[Rory Stewart]

That's the most extraordinary story, and that's.

[Alistair Campbell]

Down to the media.

[Rory Stewart]

Nathan Gill has pleaded guilty to taking money from the Russian government and nobody.

[Alistair Campbell]

Knew who he was.

[Rory Stewart]

Extraordinary.

[Alistair Campbell]

One other lesson from last week, which I think is being learned, is that all the briefing that comes out of Downing street, that is not being done through with Keir Starmer's acknowledgement and permission. Tim Allen, the new director of communications and his team has to stop. There are too many of them who go around thinking they're in a movie of their own making. They developed relations with journalists when we were in opposition and they think those relationships should just go on. So they spend, you know, Their job may be in the policy unit, it may be in the private office, it may be all around the building. And they spend all their time talking to bloody journalists. It's not their job. Stop doing it. Shut up.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. Let's just finish with Shabana Mahmood's announcements on asylum reform. So this has been leading the media in the last couple of days to remind people this question of asylum seekers is absolutely central to so much of the political debate. Farage is running on it, the Conservatives are running on it. Labour initially said that the Tory plan on Rwanda was nonsense and that they were going to break the gangs. That was Keir Starmer's pitch to smash. Smash the gangs. And he made a big pitch of, you know, I used to be Director of Public Prosecutions, I understand how to do this, I understand that policing hasn't really worked. Shabana Mahmoud has therefore announced that she's going to make it much, much more difficult, both for people to appeal in the asylum process and make conditions much tougher for refugees in the United Kingdom. So their status will be temporary. It can be revised every few months. There's going to be many more restrictions on your ability to use arguments around family. More countries are going to be made, considered safe. Probably the best bits of it, the bits that, from a technocratic point of view seem to work best, is to invest more in actually the asylum process, making sure there are actually proper courts, proper judges, they're getting through the backlog. But in the end, I don't think it's going to work, because in the end, I still believe that Gerald Knaus, who we interviewed on leading, is correct. Who is this extraordinary Austrian thinker who has set up the European Stability Initiative, began working in the Balkans and who we interviewed on leading, but who was also one of the key thinkers behind the EU Turkey deal, which was about returning migrants to Turkey during the refugee crisis of 2015. Sixteen, that if we're serious about dealing with Farage and if Europe is serious about making sure that we don't end up with a populist government in the United Kingdom, and I think it's in everyone's interest, then we have to get the returns back to France. We have to say everybody who lands on a boat in the United Kingdom will be returned to France. France is a safe country, this safe third country return. It's an equivalent to the Rwanda scheme, but it's not Rwanda, it's France, but Geralt Canals.

[Alistair Campbell]

And it's really interesting how many people listen to that guy. I've had so many messages from, including people in governments in different parts of the world saying, can I be put in touch with this guy, Gerald Canals? He sounds really interesting, what have you, but his big point is actually that you mentioned France there. He believes that the British government should be doing deals with individual European countries, particularly Germany. And he also mentioned Denmark, and we'll come on to Denmark in a minute because ultimately the only deterrent that is actually going to work is if you make that journey, knowing that when you arrive, you get sent straight back. Because that is what happened with Turkey.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. And it works. And as Gerald points out, with Turkey, there was something like a million people crossing the Mediterranean in a very short period. And as soon as the EU Turkey deal was put in place, which basically meant anyone crossing the Mediterranean to Greece returned to Turkey, the numbers dropped to a few thousand in a month from a million.

[Alistair Campbell]

I watched the whole. I don't normally do this, but we got back from Manchester and I went home and I actually watched the whole of the statement.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, my Lord. When the rest of us sit and watch box sets, you're watching statements.

[Alistair Campbell]

BBC Parliament Channel. And I watched the whole thing from start to finish because one, I wanted to see the extent of Labour backbench disgruntlement, which there was actually a bit, but less than I thought there might be. I also wanted to see how the Tories and reform and the other opposition parties handled it. Interestingly, Kemi Badenok. So it was Shabana Mahmood doing the statement. Kemi Badenok as the leader of the Opposition for the Tories. It would normally have been Chris Philp, the shadowhome secretary. And she actually was in a place of saying, far better than what went before. You're a lot better than Yvette Cooper at this job. Good start, got to go further. And then reform Farage and that lot, they were basically saying, looks like she's auditioning to join reform, then worst of all to wind up Labour. Stephen Yaxley Lennon, the self styled patriot Tommy Robinson came out and said, you know, even though he thinks Shabana Mahmood isn't really British, he made that point in the. In the comms. He came out sort of broadly accepting. So I kind of watched the whole thing. And at the risk of triggering all of my fable, because the fable, WhatsApp group was not happy about this policy, including over breakfast this morning with Fiona, who was still sort of sort of mildly raging about the whole thing, feeling that this is just sort of playing to reform. The issue's not really as big as people say, etc. I actually think that what she's trying to do is, and this is what Keir Starmer has told her to do, is get this off the agenda from the place where it is right now, almost at the top. In fact, in some polls, you say it is at the top. And you do that in two ways. One, by fixing it, that's the most important thing, but also by showing that you're trying to fix it with something that's convincing and compelling. And I have to say, from watching her, and I was trying my best just to step back from what she was trying to do, it was impressive. She really knew what she was on about. You really sent. She was sort of deep into the detail and she. And I think that one of the reasons why Labour's got themselves into a bit of a mess recently is a lack of clarity about where they're coming from, from, and a lack of strength in how they project it. Now, it could all go tits up if there's a massive rebellion and they don't get it through Parliament. But my sense is that she, she did enough. And I had a message last night from a Labour MP who was more positive is the wrong word. But when. When he spoke, it was. And. And I said, oh, surprised that yours stands there. And he sent this thing, he says, and he's based up north, and he said, listen, we have got to fix this, because this is the gateway issue to the hatred of us right now.

[Rory Stewart]

The problem is, though, I suspect that her policies will not significantly reduce the numbers. It won't be anything like as effective as safe third country return, because many people, I'm afraid, will go through the asylum process, they'll be rejected and they will then choose not to return to their countries. They will avoid being forcibly deported, they'll disappear into the grey economy, they'll be supported by family and what we will then have is increasing destitution. Because basically what she's doing is she's saying that if you failed your asylum process, you're going to have less support on housing, education, employment, welfare. But for many people who've spent two years traveling from Sudan or a year and a half traveling from Afghanistan, they're still going to prefer to illegally stay. And provided they avoid getting arrested by the police and they don't turn up to their tribunals, they can often continue for many, many years to operate in the grey economy. But in desperate situations, they're lucky. They'll have family supporting them, but they will be exploited by employers who will not Pay them properly, who will make them work too many hours. That's the problem. We're not in a situation where when your appeal is refused, you're immediately put on a plane out. It's very difficult to get full figures on how many people stay when their asylum claim is rejected. We can see, for example, that there are about 100,000 claims a year and about 10,000 people leave a year. That doesn't necessarily mean that 90% of them are staying because some of these are claims from previous years. Nevertheless, there is a significant issue around people whose claim is rejected and who are not deported, because actually generally you get deported if you're in prison or the authorities can get you instead. Those people choose to go into the grey economy and then they're in a very difficult situation. No mainstream benefits, no housing, difficult to access work, education, health. They'll be exploited by employers because they don't have legal status. But many people who have claimed asylum, been rejected will choose to do that and be supported by extended family networks rather than being removed. So it may not actually reduce the number of people claiming asylum that much.

[Alistair Campbell]

One other thing we should put in the newsletter is a very interesting piece that Fraser Nelson wrote. And, you know, I thought it was very interesting how the government deliberately set off this debate that we're modeling it on Denmark. Centre left government has been very, very tough on Asyl. And actually Frais Nelson's piece is really interesting because it shows 10 areas in which this is actually not nearly as tough as Denmark. And he's not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's just very interesting that it's, you know, you throw out a headline to the media and they go, oh, Denmark, Denmark, Denmark, Denmark. And then nobody actually goes and bothers.

[Rory Stewart]

And looks at the detail at the small print century. You often talk about policies which get big media coverage, but actually in detail, not much happens. And a classic example with Denmark is that Shabana Mahmoud has announced, copying Denmark, that asylum seekers can have their assets confiscated, like their E bike, if they're not contributing towards their housing. Yes, that exists in Denmark, but apparently it's only happened 17 times since the law was introduced. There's only been 17 assets confiscated in Denmark.

[Alistair Campbell]

And because in some cases it was their jewelry, this line ran here that Shabana Mahmoud wants to take away your jewelry. And she was very, very clear in the House of Commons that is not what she was talking about. It was a really detailed piece. The other really interesting point he made is that he said, Keir Starmer doesn't really like big policy debates playing out in public. But Shabana Mahmood has decided she's going to have a really big debate about this and she's going to see how it plays out, which is probably the right decision.

[Rory Stewart]

You've got to take some risk.

[Alistair Campbell]

And what do you think of this? One of the things that really seem to be winding people up is the idea that you get. Get your status checked, you know, with this great Home Office bureaucracy that never seems to be able to check much every 2.5 years, and it's up to 20 years before you can get settled status. And I think the reason that Fiona and Grace in particular, were getting really wound up about this is because, actually, when Grace was at primary school, some of her best friends were Kosovans who came here because of what was going on in the Kosovo War, settled here and now, you know, there's one family we know where they've got three kids, all of whom have gone on to university, doing good things, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And there's this sense that, you know, had we had this system, then they might have gone back after 2.5 years, 5 years, whatever it might be. So here's one for you on. Let's just take something like Syria.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

So there we are. We were in Syria with Al Shara. He was in the White House last week with, with Donald Trump, spraying him with perfume and sort of essentially saying, this guy's great. Does that mean that Syria is now safe? And therefore should all the Syrians who came into Europe, and many of them also into the uk, that they now go back, and if so, how Syria.

[Rory Stewart]

Is safer, because Bashar Al Assad isn't there, but there are still areas of Syria which are unbelievably dangerous that I wouldn't suggest anybody travels to. You've seen the fights with the Druze and the Alawites. There are isis, Islamic State cells out in the south.

[Alistair Campbell]

But that basically means we don't send anybody back to countries that are dangerous. Most of these countries, I mean, every country's got some danger.

[Rory Stewart]

Let me push further. Afghanistan, I mean, Afghanistan will be a really good test case for the way that Britain thinks about this. Afghanistan, in some measures is safer. Right? In the sense that I was back there in August for the first time in 20 years, I can still have picnics on the roadside. The Taliban has significantly reduced the number of people being killed. There aren't terrorist attacks because they. The Taliban who were doing the attacks are now the government and there's not fighting taking place. On the other hand, it is a patriarchal, chauvinistic regime severely repressing the rights of women. On the one hand you could say, well, yes, you can go back to Afghanistan, probably go on holiday in Afghanistan and you're not going to get killed. On the other hand, what do the British public think of women living in a situation like Taliban Afghanistan? What are the courts going to think? I my answer to this is I think Gerald is right, which is the British government needs to say, in a big global refugee coalition. I keep coming back this share the burden, get Germany, France, Britain, Canada, everybody to sign up to say we will take 0.05% of our population annually and we'll take real people, you know, female judges threatened by the Taliban in Afghanistan. But we will not accept anybody coming informally across on a boat. And if you could get that coalition together, get the new head of the UNHC behind it, because they're looking for a new head of the UNHCR at the moment. Rethink this whole Tom Fletcher, he's already got a job.

[Alistair Campbell]

He could have that one too.

[Rory Stewart]

That one too. I think there'll be a non British person getting that job. Then there is a chance of doing this and I think it makes sense for the whole world to do it together, because in every country in the world, this issue is leading to the rise of populism and even the edges of proto fascism.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, but Roy, how do you do that in the context of climate, which is going to produce far more refugees than we have now, an American government. We're going to talk about this later. That is not even bothering to turn up to the G20 and not even sending anyone to the G20 didn't go to cop the idea we're going to get greater international cooperation at a time of this rising nationalism, I think it's going to be very, very tough to do.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, this is the big trick, isn't it, to say, okay, America's isolated itself and this is the opportunity for Canada, Europe, South Korea, Australia, and do you.

[Alistair Campbell]

Try and do deals with China and try and get them to engage more positively on this kind of stuff?

[Rory Stewart]

Very sadly, China and Japan are very, very bad at taking refugees from asylum seekers. The number of asylum seekers taken in Lichtenstein is more than the whole of Japan. I mean, it's extraordinary. And then of course, we don't talk enough about the fact that most of the burden is being born in Asian and African countries. So Uganda takes millions of refugees, many of the Refugees from Myanmar end up in Bangladesh. Many of the refugees from Afghanistan end up in Pakistan, Iran. So there's a more complicated story here about developing countries or poorer countries taking a huge burden of refugees. Still, we cannot survive as liberal governments unless we put proper controls in our borders, which are humane and just. And take the people who we decide we can take. Let's say Britain took, I don't know, 40,000 people a year. France took 40,000 people a year. Germany took 50,000 a year. The Netherlands took 20,000 a year.

[Alistair Campbell]

Refugees, as opposed to those people who coming and applying for jobs and getting visas.

[Rory Stewart]

We're talking about people who you could go out to the public and explain very clearly this is the criteria on which we're taking it. We're sharing the burden with all other European countries. These are the kind of people, female judges from Afghanistan, for example. And we're not accepting people who pay people smugglers to turn up on boats.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, well, listen, let's take a break and then we'll come back and talk about another question that we asked our people on tour, which is, is Donald Trump creating a fascist United States of America?

[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome back to the Rest Is Politics. Me, Alistair Campbell, and me, Rory Stewart. Now, one of the questions we asked our audiences on our recent tour is this. Are we witnessing the birth of a fascist usa? It's really interesting. Every audience was roughly the same. The highest was Glasgow. 82% agreed with that. Proposition 18 disagreed, but it was above 70% everywhere. Yeah, that's quite a big statement. Are we witnessing the birth of a fascist usa?

[Rory Stewart]

And of course, it's something that it triggers people on the right. That kind of response. It even used to trigger your friend Tony Blair.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think it still does trigger him a bit.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. I mean, I sometimes think. I mean, I use words like proto fascist because I don't want to get drawn into the people excusing Donald Trump on the grounds that he's not Hitler. I mean, obviously he's not Hitler, but that doesn't mean that what he's doing is not unbelievably dangerous and troubling. One of the ways, though, of talking about it is to look at Trump's coalition. So traditionally, we've talked about Trump's coalition as having three bits to it. Tech bros like Musk or your friend Curtis Yarvin.

[Alistair Campbell]

Brackets, not my friend.

[Rory Stewart]

Second group, the broad kind of MAGA base, which is tens of millions of voters and therefore pretty diverse, all the way from white, less educated communities with economic anxieties, right the way through to black Pentecostal churches in some cases, and school mums on the other side. And then finally, this group called Christian Nationalists. And we haven't spoken much about them. And of course, the reason we're talking about them today is that Nick Fuentes was interviewed by Tucker Carlson and then there was a massive attack by Ben Shapiro. Now, just to explain to people who don't get into the weeds of all this, Nick Fuentes is A young influencer with genuinely fascist views. He's on record saying a lot of women want to be raped. They want men to beat the shit out of them. He talked about the Jim Crow laws, saying, big deal, blacks weren't allowed to drink from water fountains. Who cares? It's just a water fountain. He said that Jews are responsible for every war in the world and they must be absolutely annihilated when we take power. So this is Nick Fuentes. He was platformed on Tucker Carlson. So Tucker Carlson interviewed him for a long time. That's a big show. And Ben Shapiro, who is a Trump sympathetic right wing podcaster, then attacked exposing all these divisions within the setup. It then led me down this path of getting a sense of Christian nationalism. What's your sense of Christian nationalism before I start ranting about?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I'm fascinated by this obsession that the Christian right, which Trump is responding to, have with Nigeria. So the Nigerian thing, they basically say that Christians are being persecuted now. There's 50, 50 Christians and Muslims and there is some inter ethnic, inter religious violence, no doubt about that. But to say that this is a level of persecutions against Christians which requires the American administration to intervene, given all the things. They don't intervene in a continent, by the way, that I think Donald Trump has never visited, certainly never visited as president, which I think shows you where he puts Africa in his scale of priorities. I have been stunned and I don't know how it's happened that the Christian right is the Christian right. I, as you know, perhaps this is just my bias, but I've always assumed that Jesus was a socialist. I certainly think he had pretty socialist outlook and principles and what have you. You know, when you see these pictures of Trump with all these sort of evangelical pastors sort of laying their hands on him and seeing him like, you know, a second coming of Christ. What I found really interesting, when we were on tour, we got lots of questions about AI and you were doing this big series for rest its politics members on AI and you. I sense you're on a journey of becoming much, much more skeptical where in a sense, you're becoming into something of an alliance with the Christian right because you see them as being scared of this because it's going to eat into whatever it is that they believe. So unbundle that one for me.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, well, so firstly, I think you're right. This is an amazing reminder how different America is to Britain. In Britain, as I often point out to Americans, the church is often seen as pretty left wing. Famously conservative governments always Getting really annoyed with bishops.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, the American bishops produced a video this week, did they not, that was really quite powerful about the operations of ice.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. Attacking exactly what Trump is doing in terms of the brutal treatment of immigrants and the way in which churches are being violated as places of sanctuary, et cetera.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the Pope came out with a very powerful statement about Cox up and condemned the lack of global leadership. Well, I think he means the leaders who didn't turn up.

[Rory Stewart]

Right. So if you're from the Christian nationalist right, you see this as part of all your institutions being taken over by woolly liberals. So increasingly, there would be anti bishops, anti university professors, anti bankers. They talk in one bit of the Christian nationalist movement about the Seven Mountains. They're almost like Marxists. They define all these big institutions that they need to take over from government to education. This was something that Charlie Kirk was associated with. In fact, in some ways, Charlie Kirk, man that was assassinated in this horrible incident, shows you some of the links between these groups. He was somebody who began in some ways as a sort of tech bro enthusiast, then became very much part of the MAGA base and then very much embraced Christian nationalism. This part of America, though. And I was talking to a Daily Telegraph journalist called Tim Stanley, who has written articles about this, this, and has also written an article on Timothy McVeigh. Written a book, actually, on Timothy McVeigh and the links to the 1990s Christian militia movements in the United States, where a lot of this comes from. I was also talking to a priest who was my local priest called. You'll like this name. He's called Father Yaroslav Skywalker. And they were both trying to help me understand.

[Alistair Campbell]

I need to know more about Father.

[Rory Stewart]

I think his parents are partly Russian and partly these Star wars fans, I think, is the way to interpret what's happening there. So what they're both pointing out is that you have to understand that there's a much stronger tradition in the United States, firstly of fundamentalism, but secondly of reading books like the Book of Apocalypse and believing that what we might see as sort of poetic language is in fact, direct prophecy about the current day. And in this view, the Christian nationalists are not saying Trump is Jesus. What they're saying is that he is like one of these Old Testament kings who ushers in the moment of the Second Coming. And actually, he might be, they acknowledge personally quite evil, but he's a sort of enabler for this moment. And then you get into even stranger moments, which is that if you're Mick Huckabee, who's the American ambassador to Israel.

[Alistair Campbell]

He's a real Second Coming man.

[Rory Stewart]

Right. Then you believe in various things, such as, for example, there's going to be some new movement in Jerusalem. The temple is gonna be rebuilt in Jerusalem. A lot of this is taken from the Book of Revelations. And when all this gets together, you suddenly see breaks within that movement. So Nick Fuentes, who's a Christian nationalist, but he's a very extreme Christian nationalist. He's a Christian nationalist who seems to believe in a Catholic theocracy. He doesn't believe in democracy at all. He wants, effectively, America to be administered by a sort of Pope figure.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, that's what Curtis Yavitt wants. He thinks J.D. vance should demolish, should be a king.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe without the theology, but it's sort of similar. And the only reason why this matters is you could say these people are French people who don't matter at all. But Rod Dreher, again, who's somebody who you wouldn't have any truck with at all, he's an American intellectual. He's very close to Viktor Orban and has moved to Hungary. He has just come back from Washington completely shocked to discover that he claims 30 to 40% of Republican staffers are listening to Nick Fuentes, listening to this man who says. Says women should shut up, Jews control everything, and most black people should be in jail.

[Alistair Campbell]

It's pretty terrifying, isn't it? Just back to fascism. So Umberto Eco, whose definition of fascism is one of the.

[Rory Stewart]

You've become a real European intellectual. Umberto Echo. Where are we going next? Michel Foucault.

[Alistair Campbell]

Sorry, am I not allowed? Just because you want to be a public intellectual doesn't mean that other people aren't already public intellectual. No, but he. Let's just go through them one by one. The principles of fascism as he defines them. A cult of tradition.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

Rejection of modernism.

[Rory Stewart]

Just quickly on that one. The tradition is very different, isn't it, in America to Europe? So in Europe, it could be a traditionalist like me, who.

[Alistair Campbell]

Enlightenment.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. Or it could be, you know, someone like me who's nostalgic about small farms in Cumbria or the British army or something. In America, tradition means revolutionary tradition. It means the right to bear arms. Yeah, yeah. It means white and it means white. Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

We were looking the other day at those posters from the Department of Labor. I mean, they literally. This is about advertising jobs in America. The pictures they use literally look like 1930s Germany. I'm sorry. Blonde hair, blue eyes. That's the look. Two kids, man, woman, and some of.

[Rory Stewart]

This is conservatism from the 1930s in America, which was anti New Deal, anti Roosevelt, anti what they saw as the liberal elite very much against any attempts to help civil rights in the South. So it was racist and it was violent back in the 30s. And this is coming back again.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. Modernity, defined by the Enlightenment and rationalism is seen as the beginning of moral depravity. Action and a can do attitude are valued over intellect and reflection. For sure. Disagreement is treason. Critical thinking is seen as a threat to the movement's unity. What's he calling Marjorie Taylor Greene at the moment? Marjorie Traitor Greene. What was she a year ago? An absolute heroine. Fear of difference, exploiting xenophobia and racism. They do that. Appealing to a frustrated middle class. That's their working class. That's what they do. Obsession with plots. Enemies are both too strong and too weak. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. Contempt for the weak. Machismo, selective populism. And then the final on linguistic characteristics, using an impoverished vocabulary to limit critical reasoning and discourse. Well, he certainly does that. So I think the question was, are we witnessing the birth of. I mean, Tony, you're right. Tony says to me, stop making comparisons with Hitler. But in terms of the attacks on judges, in terms of the attacks on the media now, including the BBC, not even his own media, but going global on attacking anybody that isn't just a bow down sycophant, that is the birth of fascism.

[Rory Stewart]

And in Britain we need to acknowledge that that's what Tommy Robinson is about, 100%. There is a lot of whitewashing now happening of Tommy Robinson. A lot of people saying, you can't call him racist, you can't call him fascist because he's not Hitler. And when I challenged him, Hitler wasn't.

[Alistair Campbell]

Hitler until he became Hitler.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. When I challenged Tommy Robinson on Twitter, we were talking about this on the tour. Immediately he came back, you talked about machismo from Alberto Eco. He said, Rory Stewart is weak spiritually weak, emotionally weak, intellectually weak physically. Right. It's all about strength. Again, when I challenge him back, his supporters come in and they say, you never answer any questions. Here are two questions to answer. Number one, are there too many Muslims in the uk? Number two, if there are, how many should there be?

[Alistair Campbell]

Right.

[Rory Stewart]

So I answer back. 1. No, 2c1. And then unleashed on me is extraordinary abuse. But if you think about what would happen if you replaced that word Muslim with are there too many Jewish people in the uk? Are there too many black people in the uk then you see where the problem is and people are just not waking up to what Tommy Robinson represents and what this movement represents. We're endlessly whitewashing, endlessly. I keep talking to you, I'm getting more and more aggravated about this. I go and meet wealthy educated people in Britain who are now saying to me things like, ah, you know, got the economy going and, you know, maybe we need to sort things up. And I had a farmer in Cumbria met me in the street and he said, taxes are terrible. And as a good Tory, I was like, labor, taxes are terrible. And he said, I'm just asking you, but do you think we need a Trump? No, we definitely don't need a Trump. But this is becoming more and more mainstream. Final Marjorie Taylor Greene. She will matter because votes matter. In fact, for Trump, if he's a one term president, he may not care too much about what's happening between MAGA and the Christian Nashes, but he's got to get stuff through Congress. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is a problem. She is somebody. Just to remind people, when the 2018 California wildfire happened, she put forward the theory that this was a space laser fired by the Rothschilds. And this is why the California wildfire happened. When challenged recently about this anti Semitic theory, she said she was unaware that the Rothschilds were Jewish. It was the first time she'd ever heard. Now she is now becoming somehow hero of anti Trump people because she's calling out Trump on the Epstein files. But try to remember where she comes from.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, yeah, she's also, she did an interview the other day where she was talking about the nature of the toxic discourse. And the interviewer said, but, you know, you were fine with it until he started attacking you. And she said, yeah, I accept, I was part of the problem. Either she's having a, to stick with the religious analogy, she's having a sort of Road to Damascus conversion, or she's just decided, I'm no longer part of the in crowd. And she's now, because we're in this mad conspiracy world where those people get followers, she's now going to try and build her own base. But the fact that Trump was asked about her and said straight away, you know how good he is with nicknames, Marjorie Traitor Greene, you know, he's decided she's an enemy. And back to Umberto, my good friend and fellow European public intellectual, Umberto Eco, you know, identifying your enemies and giving them no quarter whatsoever. And I think the thing is, I've reread that recently, that Project 2025 thing. If you look at it through the lens of where Trump might go, I think it's hard to escape the view that the people of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bournemouth and London are right, that we maybe the question. The better question will be, might we be. And a lot of that then depends on the response.

[Rory Stewart]

And this is where we have a slight disagreement with the rest of politics, us. Because I was struck by the fact that they've been saying, he'll have elections. Right? Of course he'll have elections. Hitler had elections, Putin has elections, the populists in Latin America have elections. That's not the litmus test in the modern world. Yeah, elections will happen. The problem is what you do to all the institutions around.

[Alistair Campbell]

And if you lose, do you accept it?

[Rory Stewart]

Because back to 2020, which he certainly didn't in 2020.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, good. Well, listen, that was a canter through the extremely depressing American state of American politics. Back to question time. Tomorrow we're going to talk about China and Japan. That is kicking off a little bit since the election of a new Japanese prime minister. BBC Chile. Chile. And we've got Mexico. And also this issue. There's finally, it seems Netanyahu is calling out some of the activities of the settlers in Israel. And also, Roy, because it's all been a bit heavy, a bit of fun, as you know, because you were there every night. We started our shows with little films of this sort of small army of rest is politics impersonators.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And one of them, of course, had had the, I thought, the best joke of all, which is the fact that you always say that they get my voice much better than your voice, but they do. What I then discovered is one of the reasons for this is that when I hear them, I start imitating their voice. I'm imitating the imitators.

[Alistair Campbell]

He did on what occasion? Yeah, no, I do have a very hard. I remember it in Impersonate Rory Andrew. Rory Bremney used to do me and Tony Blair. And there's an actor called Andrew Dunn who did me and I bumped into him once. He says, you're very hard to get because your voice keeps changing a bit. And I do. I have a mix. I have a bit of Scottish, a bit of Northern. I've lived in London most of my life. I don't really. Whereas you are. All these impersonators do. View is said, you know, let's have the poshest voice I can.

[Rory Stewart]

A little bit of Mid Atlantic, a little bit of. Yeah, a little bit of voice going up the end.

[Alistair Campbell]

Speaking slowly to foreigners, they do that as well.

[Rory Stewart]

Most difficult one of all, I think, is Nottingham in Britain. And we did that. Cause we just did this wonderful interview on punch, which is about to come out on leading this amazing play about a man who killed somebody with a punch and the extraordinary forgiveness from the family of the victim.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. So on Monday.

[Rory Stewart]

But that is all about this extraordinary story of training voices to deal with the Nottingham accent, which actually has very, very posh vowels in it, suddenly appearing unexpectedly.

[Alistair Campbell]

Anyway, tomorrow, one of our impersonators apparently has asked us a question.

[Rory Stewart]

Good. See you tomorrow. As the year draws to a close, it's time for our annual reminder that even in an age of political noise and division one, national consensus still stands firm. Roast potatoes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, God. All this British stuff. If you're wondering, however, what to buy the politically obsessed person in your life this Christmas, might I gently suggest a year's membership to the rest is politics.

[Rory Stewart]

Plus, it's the thoughtful kind of present, ad free listening, bonus episodes, early access to Q&As, book discounts, and perhaps I think most interesting, it's our miniseries, available only to members, focusing on the world's most complex characters and topics. We've already explored Rupert Murdoch and J.D. vance, and we're doing doing many more subjects to come.

[Alistair Campbell]

So think of this as a civilized gift to allow families to disagree agreeably over Christmas. What could be nicer?

[Rory Stewart]

And if you've left it until Christmas Eve, as I fear I often do, the great thing is it's digital. No cues, rapping or panic. The membership lands neatly in their inbox on Christmas Day.

[Alistair Campbell]

So spread a little political peace and goodwill, head to therestispolitics.com and click Gifts.