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Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics. To support the podcast, listen without the adverts and get early access to episodes and live show tickets, go to therestispolitics.com.
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That'S therestispolitics.com this episode is brought to.
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A
Welcome to the Rest Is Politics with me, Alistair Campbell.
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D
And welcome to the Rest Is Politics US with me, Anthony Scaramucci.
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A
And the reason that we're doing this joint collaboration live on a Friday is we've both been in Davos. I for one was up for a very nice quiet day catching up with everything back home, added to which both of us have been putting out a lot of content this week. But I'm afraid I for one cannot stay silent on something Donald Trump said on his beloved Fox News last night as he continues to denigrate NATO and their allies. Let me just, let me just read you what he said, talking about Afghanistan and NATO and the alliance. Will they troops be there if we ever need them? We've never needed them. We've never really asked anything of them. They'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, a little off the front lines, but we've been very good to Europe and many other countries. Now this from a man who famously avoided the draft via his so called bone spurs. So a few facts just before we let rip one the only time Article 5, which means an attack on one is an attack on all has ever been invoked was by the states in the wake of 9, 11 and the Afghanistan war that followed, the one he now says we held back from the front line. Two lost soldiers in that war, in our case, 457. Only America suffered a greater numerical loss. And Denmark, who has been abusing all week over Greenland, they lost 43 troops, which is a percentage of their population is on a par with the states. Canada, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Poland, Spain, Romania, Netherlands, Turkey, Czech Republic, Norway, Estonia, Hungary, Georgia actually lost more pair to population than, than all of them. And I know none of his new border peace friends in there. So to me, for him to think it, let alone say it in such a dismissive, casual way is disgusting. He's done a lot to make my blood boil over the years, Mooch. But this is right up there and my phone has been ringing and pinging with real anger from ex and current military, including a friend who's in the Special Forces, who's operating alongside Americans and right now and tells me they are disgusted too. And I just want to, I really want every NATO leader and I think this should happen and I understand how difficult it is to deal with Trump. I think every one of them should unite to demand an apology because if not, he's just going to get worse and worse and worse. But tell me, Anthony, tell me this. What on earth goes through his head when something like that comes out?
- [04:11]
D
First of all, the big, the big problem, Alistair, is because he's the leader of the United States and the democratically elected leader, his voice has more residents than more normal voices. And so on behalf of the American people that are normal, I apologize for those remarks. Because this alliance has worked for both sides of the Atlantic for 80 years. Most Americans, and I think you know this, I was on the board of the Business Executives for National Security for over a decade. I have been to Afghanistan, I have been to Iraq on troop support missions. I have visited NATO soldiers from Australia, Canada, Denmark on the battle lines or at least at base camp, because that's where they would put civilians to thank them for their service. So I just want to start out by saying this is not the messaging from most Americans, frankly. I think you saw Senator Coon with me and some other leaders, Gavin Newsom I believe you spent some time with. So this is not the sentiment of normal Americans who love our alliance, love these relationships, and want this eight decade fostering of peace, prosperity and trust to continue.
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A
So why is he doing so much to undermine it?
- [05:31]
D
This is the act of a man who is violently inadequate. This is the act of a man who's violently insecure. And this is somebody because of some type of repression issues or whatever is going on in his family life as it related to resolving conflict with his father, needs to humiliate people. And one of the most astonishing things that happened, and this is one of the reasons why I got blown out of that universe so quickly, is that he wants you to be him. What you saw in Davos with me, and I know you had the vomit bag with you, you saw the mini mes, you saw Scott Besant, a mini espousing rhetoric. You saw Howard Lutnick, I mean, mini me who was trying to be a maxi me, frankly. I mean, the most revolting guy. It's a live show, so just, you know, if you put a B instead of an L in front of his name and you say it, then you'll know how I think about the guy. Okay, so the only, the only thing I will say to you is I'm sorry for this, but I think it is coming to an end. I'm going to make a prediction here that people have looked at this. Business leaders, politicians, Republican politicians are saying, okay, whoa, there's something seriously wrong with this guy and they're scared of him. I understand that. But I do see this unfolding over the next three to six months in a bad way for President Trump.
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A
Well, are you saying that you think up to and including the point of him having to go, you think he should be impeached because of his mental health, don't you?
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D
Yeah. I mean, it's an article. It's an article. It's an, it's a 25th amendment issue. You know, if you're, if you're going to impeach them, but you can't get the vote in the House of Representatives because of Johnson. And then you got to get a conviction. You need 2/3 of the Senate. Not going to happen. You would have to have a 25th Amendment thing where the, the Cabinet got together and said that he's ill. I don't see that happening today. But, but I do see his mental acuity eroding. The speech that he gave, this meandering speech was ridiculous. The press conference he gave yesterday on Air Force One, you, you know, I'm not a clinician, but he doesn't look well. The bruises all over his hands, the unsteady gait on the, the red carpet. This is not a well guy. This is not a well guy physically. This is not a well guy mentally. And, you know, I guess they'll Put this pantomime antics on for a period of time. But Alistair, listen, you know, it's not like, you know. Don't believe your lying eyes, Alistair, okay? Don't believe your lying eyes. How much are you going to do that? Caroline Levitt is not immune to prosecution. Okay, let's just point that out. Maybe the Supreme Court has said that the President can more or less do whatever he wants, but Caroline Levitt is trying to tell people that he banged his hand on a signing desk, which. That doesn't look like a hand that got banged on a signing desk. Caroline Levitt's. No, no, no, he meant Greenland instead of Iceland or Iceland instead of Greenland. She wants to lie for the guy like she's Tokyo Rose, she's America.
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A
They all do it. The thing I was. The thing I was most appalled by, as you say, that's the first time this week that I've seen him close up with his entourage. It is disgusting. It is monstrous. They fawn around him. Whatever he says is true, even when they know that it's not. But let's just come back to what he said about nature. I just want to read you. I was listening to an interview recently, earlier today, and I want to just give you some of the comments from it. So a young man by the name of William Aldridge from Herefordshire in West England. He was the youngest Brit to be killed in Afghanistan. He was killed by a bomb when he's trying to save his comrades in 2009. And his mother said this. The President's claim has picked the scab off wounds that have never healed. And there are stories like that all over our media right now. And I just want to. I know you've been busy today and you're doing other things, but is this a big story in the States? Because it should be, in my view.
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D
Yeah. You know, I would say that it's not a big story in the States because this is predictable behavior. He's got people immunized. What. What the big story is, frankly, going on in the States is that they're pulling people out of their houses. Ice is pulling people out of their houses half naked. I mean, they pulled an elderly man out of his house and his boxer shorts and a blanket and they're, they're, they're detaining five year old children. So, you know, you've got things going on on both sides of the Atlantic, right? You've got this treachery. I mean, you guys don't like using the F word. And I'm not talking The F word that ends in a K. I'm talking about the one that ends in a T. You don't like using the fascist word, but Trump himself. Okay, well, I, I think he is a fascist and, and Trump is himself. You know, Caddy always gets mad at me for using that word, but I think he's a full on fascist. He admitted at the press conference in Davos that he likes being a dictator and sometimes you need a dictator and all this sort of stuff. He's got the ICE people and he's got the INS people up in arms. They, you know, I went to law school. I've got a lot of buddies of mine that are immigration lawyers. They've been told by dhs, you got, We've been told that we have to get rough. I'm 15 years. Hear me out for a second, al. Sir, I'm 15 years into my service. Five more years, I get my pension. Noam and Trump are telling us we have to get rough. If we don't get rough, they're going to demote me like they're trying to demote Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona for exercising his free speech rights. And so there's a chilling effect going on everywhere, you know, and so that's the big story in the United States right now. This is a story. I'm not saying it isn't a story. And again, I condemn this. And again, I would apologize on behalf of the normal Americans for this. But Alistair, what I'd like you to address, if you don't mind, is this need for compensation, this insecurity, this need of this inadequacy where if I'm in your presence and my name is Donald Trump, I have to find a way to humiliate you. Whether it's Keir Starmer, Mark Carney, the NATO alliance and military servicemen that have lost their lives, I am going to launch an attack at you to make myself feel better. What is that all about, Al? So you've hung out with a lot of politicians over your life.
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A
I don't think I've ever hung out with anybody like him or all the sycophants. But on the plane back from Zurich, because I follow the mantra of Marilyn Monroe and I think in ink, and I wrote a 3,000 word piece for my newspaper, the New World, and I'll just read you one at the top paragraph. There are so many inconsistencies and paradoxes about Trump. He's the most powerful man in the world, but so, so needy. He has an extraordinary story to tell, yet cannot tell it without industrial scale lying. He surrounds himself with sycophants, yet no matter how low they bow, they must bow a little lower next time. Close up, it is a monstrous, hideous spectacle. So I don't understand him. But I'll tell you what I felt watching and what I felt when I saw him doing that interview where he mentioned the thing about the troops who pulled back from the front line. We said before, I think, and I think you think that he's got narcissistic personality disorder. One of the traits of that is you are genuinely incapable of empathy. So what I said to me, what it said to me as those words came out of his mouth, he is only thinking about the effect that the words are going to have on him. Is this going to make people think that I am really more, even more powerful than they thought? Is it going to make them think that I'm saying only America has real power? He's not thinking remotely that this might damage people, hurt people.
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D
Well, yeah, but remember, Rut, if that's how you pronounce his name, pushed back on him and explained to him that people lost their lives. He pushed back on him, and then Trump had to push back on the pushback. You see what I mean? That's really what it is, is that. But it's that infantile turn of phrase.
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A
Because he can't admit he's wrong.
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D
Yeah, exactly. He's never been able to admit he's wrong. He can't apologize. He can't. Human.
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A
So answer me this, Anthony. I, I've said. And I've. And I've. I've. In a rare moment of kind of. I don't know what the word is, but I've actually been sending messages to several current and past prime ministers saying you cannot not come out and condemn this, because if you're. Tony Blair, my old boss, he was alongside George Bush. George Bush should say something about politically. Yeah, exactly. George W. Bush, who's. I mean, I like the guy, he sits in his studio painting, what have you. How can he just sit there when this guy comes out and says this about people who basically from around the world who died because George Bush asked them to serve. Okay. All for the Alliance. So I just think the, you know, and so far. Let me just, Let me Put your spin, Dr. Hant on. Now, let me just, Let me just read you what the response from Downing street to this has been. They basically said that he was wrong to diminish the role of NATO troops, that four, five, seven personnel died, and that they had many More had life changing injuries from their service alongside the US Their sacrifice will never be forgotten. We're incredibly proud of them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What do you think of that? You know, the top line is he was wrong. That's it.
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D
I mean, again, let me, let me, let me.
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A
What would you do? What would you say?
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D
Well, but here's the, here's the problem, okay, You've got a trade deal with the United States. You're in the most favored position again, whether you like Mandelson or not, like Stormer or not. I think they did a very good job for the country. I think the King has done a very good job for the country. And you're in a, and you're in a tenuous position because you left the EU and you want this trading relationship with the United States. And so if I was sitting there with Prime Minister Starmer, I would say that's enough. Even though somebody like Alistair wants you to do more and maybe a veteran wants you to do more and certainly somebody that's fallen, their parents would want you to do more. You're dealing with a maniac. And we don't need a big fight over tariffs right now for the economic growth of the country. And so I would say bite your tongue for political purposes and for expediency, but for the overall good of the country. That would be me. Second thing I would say is that this son of a bitch is going to fall. Okay? And it may be three years, but I really doubt it at this point because if you look at what's going on, the mania has gotten exponentially worse, Alistair. And by the way, you know, and I know there is something in the Epstein files. If there wasn't something in the files, why are 98% of the files not released yet? And why are we always. He's got a PhD in sideshows, he's got a PhD in distractions. So we're talking about, I'm talking about the denigration of our alliance and veterans that have died on behalf of America and the alliance. We're not talking about Epstein. You know, I was on TV this morning with Ro Khanna and Ro Khanna's like, Hey, 98% of this hasn't been released. We're going to impeach Pam Bondi because it's her responsibility to release this. And you know, Trump is telling Pam Bondi on NFW, you can't release this. Okay? And let me encourage people for a second because there were hard right people in Davos this week. And they were walking on the streets, on that promenade, Some of them bumped into me and said, hey, Mooch, how you doing? I'm fine. You know what? I'm against Trump right now. You're against Trump? I thought you were Mr. Alt. Right. He said, hey, he has broken every single promise to us. What were the promises, Alistair? No more forever wars. Let's take the Venezuelan dictator, let's bomb Iran, release the Epstein files, end all of this nonsense. He hasn't done any of those things. He is fragmenting his alliance is what I'm saying to you, sir. And I believe this is going to end badly for him.
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A
Well, I certainly hope that's true. But I want to stick with this, this subject of NATO and the alliance, because I completely understand that what I'm saying now is probably very different to what I'd have been saying if I was in my old job inside Downing Street. However, I just think there are some occasions, and I think this is one of them, when a British Prime Minister or a French president or a German chancellor who just say, bite your tongue, let it ride. I just think there are some issues that get right to the core of a national identity. And I think British people will be absolutely sickened by this. Now, most of our right wing media won't go to town on it because they don't want to upset the right wing. Nigel Farage, that great fake patriot who never misses a chance to stand alongside British troops and say how patriotic he is. I haven't noticed that he said a word yet, so. But I just think this is one of those issues where Keir Starmer should say publicly. He should privately call for an apology, and if he doesn't get it, he should publicly just say what he said goes beyond the battle.
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D
He's never getting an apology, Alistair. This guy doesn't apologize for anything. He's never. He got taught by Roy Cohen, his mentor.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I've seen the film.
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D
Double and Triple Down. You never apologize for anything. But this is. This is again his insecurity, and this is again his inadequacy. And he believes in and needs humiliation rituals. He wants people to come into the Oval Office and be humiliated. The President of South Africa, Zelensky. You pick the person, he wants them humiliated. He thinks he's hurt Carney, Prime Minister Carney, by taking the Board of Peace away from him.
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A
Okay, that's pathetic. It's pathetic.
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D
Mark Carney's the only guy that gets this guy. By the way, you know Newsom backstage, as reported by The American journalist. What is Trump doing with Newsom backstage, charmingly guffawing him. Okay, because he's such a bully, he can't face Newsom face to face, he'll talk about him in a cyberbullying way with his fat fingers calling him new scum.
- [19:55]
A
Mooch, Mooch, Mooch. Just hold there. Breaking news, Mooch, and I'm very glad to see it. Starmer says Trump's remarks are appalling and suggests he should apologize. I don't know if that had anything to do with my text, but I'm glad he said it. And by the way, Mooch, even if Trump doesn't apologize, I think this is one instance where Keir Starmer absolutely has to show he's not biting his tongue. Let me tell you as well, he'd pay a big political price here if he didn't, in my view. And he can't afford many big political prizes.
- [20:25]
D
You know your politics and political system better than me. I've been a capital allocator and a trained economist my whole life. I want the European and particularly the UK Economy to flourish and I want the idiocy to end. We got to get this group of isolationists and this group of populists out of office and we've got to. And look, we got to help the lower middle income people in both countries and increase their disposable income so their anger dissipates. But I'm just telling you, for me, you're in a pole position. This is perhaps economically centric, Alistair, but the UK is in a pole position with the United States. And we're in a tenuous situation because we have an unpredictable freak at the top of the food chain in the US And I don't want that pole position altered for the UK citizens.
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A
Okay, I totally get that. I totally get that. Anyway, I'm glad he said something. I should also say, I don't know if I sent you. I think I was going to send you a video from a guy called Al Khanz. Now here's a. This guy's a. He's a Labor mp. He's a minister for the armed forces and for the veterans, and he was a colonel in the Marines. He got the Military Cross for what he did in Afghanistan. So he's come out today and he's just done a very nice short video, basically saying how offensive and how wrong. And again, quite measured. Not as measured as, you know, more measured than maybe, than maybe I would be. But listen, it's great to talk to you, as always. And let's just take a few more minutes maybe, to reflect on the broader sense of what you actually think the future of NATO is with Trump. Because Roy Stewart and I both reached the point of actually thinking it's not just that he's difficult on Ukraine, it's that he's actually on Putin's side. And every time I see Wyckoff and Kushner sort of buying down for Putin.
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D
They want to do a commercial deal for their families with Putin.
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A
So NATO's. NATO is unsustainable on that basis. In my view.
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D
NATO is either on a pause because of this government. If J.D. vance becomes president, given his excoriation last year at the Munich Security Conference, I don't necessarily think that that's good for NATO. I think, you know, is it likely. Could. Could Canada join the eu? That could be possible. You know, I. I said something I got in trouble for. Okay. On a live show, I said, what if the Canadians said they want Chinese bases in Canada to protect them from the United States? People were aghast at me saying that. I just said that for the hyperbole of that. Yeah, that's how it happened. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm just making the point of what Trump is trying to do. He's trying to push hyperbolic, unpredictable outcomes. But would it be hyperbolic to suggest that the UK and Canada get into a joint security alliance?
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A
No, not at all.
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D
I mean. I mean, you've got the President of the United States draping the American flag over the provinces of Canada and putting it out on social media, okay? So there's a general absurdity that's going on. You've got guys like Coons and Newsom going around Europe saying, this is not us. Scott Galloway, one of my buds, said yesterday, which I totally agree with. You fools. You trusted us, okay? We put you in a sacred position where you trusted us, and now we've disavowed your trust. Do you think I want that? I mean, that's the most heartbreaking thing that anybody could say to somebody like me, okay? I'm a European by descent. I'm an American by birth, and I love it.
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A
You're a Brit by fame. We've made you famous and popular.
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D
I'm definitely a Brit by fame. You caused that, by the way, okay? And hopefully I've improved dentistry UK wide. That's what my real hope is, that somehow dentistry has been approved as a result of my arrival on the island.
- [24:16]
A
You mentioned Mark Carney there, who I thought was just And I was having an exchange with him this morning because I just sent him a message for the end of the week. And I said, I just thought your contribution was extraordinary. And I said, I see the orange man boy has responded in typically petulant, narcissistic way. And I said, but I cannot tell you, I've got here, including in the queue for the Lido this morning, just how many people you've impressed and inspired. And he said, he says the image of the Lido Q consensus on a cold winter's January is wonderfully reinforcing.
- [24:49]
D
So Carney came to our wine party. He sat with me in the back room, and he reads Trump better than anybody, by the way, because we're on a live stream right now. Rene Christensen, 3297. These are real teeth. Renee Christensen.
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A
Okay.
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D
There's no Yankee fake teeth in this mouth, okay? I just want to make sure everybody knows that, okay?
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A
Yeah, but they're expensive. They're very expensive.
- [25:13]
D
We do a lot of teeth whitening in this country. They're expensive choppers, but they're real. But Carney's got it right. And I would tell every European leader, call for executive coaching, get on the phone, do a 30, 40 minute call with Carney, because the tougher you are on Trump, the more responsive he is to you. The weaker you are on Trump, the more he will roll you. He laughs at Lutnick. He laughs at these sycophants. Trust me, Alistair doesn't reflect well on me. I work for this son of a.
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A
Business. I know you did.
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D
You would come up. He would come up the airplane. He would look at a guy like me, who's a fellow New Yorker. He would go, can you believe this guy? Can you believe the way this guy's ass kissing me? Okay? And I would be like, no, actually, I cannot believe that because I wouldn't be able to do that. And of course, I didn't do that, which is why I got my ass fired so quickly. But these other guys, they want the power, remember? The ego, the significance. Riding on Air Force One, riding in the presidential motorcade is more important to these people than the principal. But it is coming to an end, Alistair, I'm telling you that this type of behavior is going to start to get checked by the American people.
- [26:28]
A
Well, I hope so.
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D
His poll ratings are in the toilet, sir.
- [26:32]
A
Well, they're not. Listen, they're not in the toilet. They're not great.
- [26:35]
D
36%. He's at 36%. Go look at the numbers.
- [26:38]
A
Yeah, I've looked at the numbers.
- [26:39]
D
Minus 40. He's minus 44. I've got immigration.
- [26:44]
A
I know. So I did see that. Those. But listen, the thing is that I just. You say to be confident, you're telling me he's gonna fall. But I've had too many people said that to me that he'd never come back after the first term. And one of the reasons I'm less confident is, and this is what, again, I saw in Davos, the normalization of Trump by the media, the normalization by business. It was puke making at Davos. Puke making. You know, I was trying to get a little kind of reaction going in the hall and shh, shh. You know, as he was lying and smearing and all the other stuff. Well, listen, Mooch, it's been lovely as ever to talk to you. I know you've got a very important meeting in three minutes where you've got to go make lots and lots of money because that's kind of what you do. So as you can. So as you can buy a bottle of wine for 4,000.
- [27:26]
D
I got to make lots of money so I can make some campaign donations to people in the midterms that are going to fight Maga.
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A
That's really the goal here. That's good.
- [27:34]
D
Have an awesome weekend. If you're listening from the U.S. stay safe in this upcoming snowstorm.
- [27:39]
A
Somebody says there. Why are we listening to the Mooch anyway? You're listening to the Mooch Panero 777. Probably a bot sitting in Leningra. You're listening to the Mooch. Cause he knows Donald Trump better than I do. And also because he's an honorary Brit and the people of Britain love him. I appreciate that much more than they love Donald Trump.
- [27:59]
D
I need love at this point in my career. Trust me, my man.
- [28:02]
A
All right, well, listen, I want to thank everybody for tuning in. I want you to spread the word that we're doing these lives from time to time. But, you know, Mooch and I can have a laugh. But honestly, this is one of those days where I felt sick in the stomach all day. Who this guy is, how he operates, what he says is disgusting. And I for one, will not allow it to become normalized. See you soon. Amen.
- [28:28]
E
One of the darkest scandals of the modern era.
- [28:31]
B
A billionaire financier, powerful friends, hidden networks.
- [28:34]
E
And questions that refuse to go away.
- [28:37]
B
Was Jeffrey Epstein a spy? I'm Gordon Carrera.
- [28:41]
E
And I'm David McCloskey.
- [28:43]
B
And we're the hosts of the Rest is Classified. The intelligence and National Security podcast from.
- [28:48]
E
Goal Hanger, and we've just released a gripping new series investigating whether Epstein was linked to any spy agencies and asking.
- [28:55]
B
What those agencies might have known about him.
- [28:58]
E
Listen or watch now on Spotify, YouTube.
- [29:01]
D
Or wherever you get your podcasts.