496. Mandelson’s Disgrace: How Epstein Poisoned Our Politics

Summary

---

The Rest Is Politics – Episode 496

"Mandelson’s Disgrace: How Epstein Poisoned Our Politics"

Date: February 3, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart

---

Episode Overview

In this explosive episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart take a deep dive into the intertwining scandals of Jeffrey Epstein and Peter Mandelson, using newly released Epstein files as a lens through which to examine broader issues of elite influence, political corruption, and the erosion of public trust in politics. The conversation spotlights not only the UK but the global networks of wealth and power that allowed Epstein to flourish and implicates a swath of political, business, and tech elites. The hosts grapple with what these revelations mean for democracy in Britain and worldwide, drawing on their personal experiences and knowledge of the inside workings of Westminster and international politics.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Epstein Files and Their Global Fallout

• The Nature of Epstein’s Power (02:37 – 05:10)

  • Stewart and Campbell set the stage by recapping Epstein’s rise as a sex offender, human trafficker, and master networker, noting his profound connections across politics, finance, and academia.
  • Rory Stewart: “He’s the perfect agent of influence for an intelligence agency because he can compromise people. He can blackmail people. He knows everybody.” [00:33]

• Victims at the Center (05:10 – 05:30)

  • Campbell stresses that discussions must center the victims, many of whom were underage girls whose lives were destroyed, and some of whom later died by suicide.
  • Alastair Campbell: “Nobody should forget that at the core of this story is the extremely horrifying evil actions of this predator and the men who, with him, engaged in this extraordinary pattern of industrial abuse.” [05:30]

2. Peter Mandelson’s Involvement – Facts and Fallout

• Financial Connections and Leaked Communications (05:38 – 06:41)

  • Stewart presents a timeline with figures: transfers of money from Epstein to Mandelson, government memos forwarded by Mandelson to Epstein, and interactions regarding banker bonuses and sensitive government bailout information.

• Insider Access During Crisis (06:41 – 08:51)

  • Campbell expresses shock at Mandelson’s communications with Epstein during critical governmental moments, such as the 2010 election aftermath, and relays personal recollections from his time in government.
  • Alastair Campbell: "I was always...very conscious...just be very, very careful with what you know that has the potential either to move the markets or to move the political dial." [07:34]
  • Rory Stewart: "The one thing that senior treasury officials are aware [of] is that you can make an enormous amount of money if you know what the government's going to do before it's going to do it." [08:51]

• How Such Appointments Happen (10:25 – 12:45)

  • Stewart probes why Mandelson, with known connections to Epstein, was appointed ambassador and whether Labour leadership properly vetted him.
  • Campbell reflects on systemic complacency regarding high-profile political figures’ backgrounds.

• Consequences for Labour and UK Politics (12:45 – 15:34)

  • Campbell discusses the broader reputational damage for Labour and politics: “It just looks like politics is a kind of horrible, murky game.” [12:45]
  • The hosts consider Mandelson’s personality, attraction to powerful networks, and his cyclical return to public life despite scandals.

3. The Culture of Elite Networking and “The Predator’s Party”

• How Epstein’s Web Worked (18:01 – 23:55)

  • Stewart unpacks how Epstein operated: donations to Harvard, parties full of Nobel laureates and celebrities, favors, introductions, and endless micro-transactions – all while predating on underage girls.
  • He describes transactional relationships: “He now becomes the guy who, if you want to know what’s happening in British politics, he’s got Mandelson on the speed dial. If you want to know what’s happening in Israeli politics, Ehud Barak is staying in his house.” [20:50]

• Elite Rationalization after Conviction (24:11 – 25:21)

  • The conversation turns to the normalization of continuing relationships with Epstein post-conviction, with many rationalizing or ignoring his crimes due to his influence and networks.
  • Alastair Campbell: "Predators do...project themselves as victims, right? So somehow the system is working against him, whereas, in fact, he’s got the system in his palm of his hand." [25:01]

4. Broader Implications: Political Corruption and Public Trust

• Global Elite Culture and Lax Norms (26:08 – 26:41)

  • Campbell argues that the role of money is even more pronounced in US politics, but that the sense of a “global elite that can get away with anything” now damages trust everywhere.

• Failure of Scandal and Media (39:33 – 40:41)

  • Campbell laments a media and political cycle where “scandal is no longer scandal, it’s just a story and it lasts half a news cycle.” [40:33]
  • The effect is a public perception that “they’re all at it,” fueling anti-politics narratives and cynicism.

5. The Need for Systemic Reform

• Reform Proposals (42:45 – 44:27)

  • Stewart and Campbell propose:
    • Campaign finance reform to reduce the role of money.
    • Higher MPs’ salaries and pensions to reduce post-political temptation.
    • Strict rules about jobs after Parliament.
    • Real enforcement and transparency of political connections and outside interests.

• A Closing Challenge to Democracy (45:27 – 46:45)

  • Campbell says Britain must admit how much it’s turned a blind eye to foreign money and shady elite access—not just in the US but at home.
  • Alastair Campbell: “Making people feel that democracy means something, I think, is an urgent political challenge.” [46:11]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Epstein’s Tactics as a “Global Connector”

  • "He can compromise people. He can blackmail people. He knows everybody." – Rory Stewart [00:33]
  • “He’s doing sick jokes about chasing girls in Dubai...he’s giving [billionaires] apparently medical advice on their sexually transmitted diseases...” – Rory Stewart [19:08]

• On Mandelson’s Risky Habits

  • “Peter was always going to be a risk as an appointment…he’s drawn to them, finds them interesting, finds them attractive.” – Alastair Campbell [11:23]

• On Scandal Fatigue in Media and Politics

  • “They’ve allowed something to be created where scandal is no longer scandal, it’s just a story and it lasts half a news cycle.” – Alastair Campbell [40:33]

• On the Root Problem in Democracy and Reform

  • “Tories shouldn’t be funded by the very wealthy. Labour shouldn’t be funded by the trade unions. We should do what Malinoskas is doing.” – Rory Stewart [43:06]
  • "Making people feel that democracy means something, I think, is an urgent political challenge.” – Alastair Campbell [46:11]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Epstein’s rise and reach explained: 02:37 – 05:10
• Victims emphasized as central: 05:30
• Mandelson’s financial and political entanglements: 05:38 – 08:51
• The culture of leaking and insider information: 07:34 – 08:51
• Concerns about Mandelson’s vetting and risk: 10:25 – 12:45
• Impact on Labour and political trust: 12:45 – 15:34
• How Epstein's networking worked (US & UK): 18:01 – 23:55
• US political culture and elite impunity: 26:08 – 26:41
• Media’s failure to hold elites accountable: 39:33 – 40:41
• Campaign finance and political reform: 42:45 – 44:27
• Closing reflections on cleaning up politics: 45:27 – 46:45

---

Summary Tone and Takeaway

Campbell and Stewart pull no punches, combining deep insider knowledge with candid reflections and a persistent tone of warning: the poison of moneyed, unaccountable elite networks—exemplified by Epstein—runs deeply through British and global politics. Despite shock at Mandelson’s personal choices, the pair’s concern is much broader: they see a dangerous system where scandal barely dents the public’s cynicism, reforms are desperately needed, and democracy’s legitimacy is at stake. The episode’s closing call is unambiguous—real reform is possible, but only if politicians and the public insist on it, and do so urgently.

---

Transcript

[Alastair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics. To support the podcast, listen without the adverts and get early access to episodes and live show tickets, go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com There is so much in this latest batch that is bad for Trump, that is bad for Bill Gates, that is bad for Elon Musk.

[Rory Stewart]

We've only seen this because Epstein happens to be the most famous sex repetition in the world. Otherwise we'd never have seen any of this.

[Alastair Campbell]

They've allowed something to be created where scandal is no longer scandal. It's just a story, and it lasts half a news cycle.

[Rory Stewart]

There's a very interesting question of intelligence connections. He's the perfect agent of influence for an intelligent agency because he can compromise people. He can blackmail people. He knows everybody.

[Alastair Campbell]

Peter was always going to be a risk as an appointment.

[Rory Stewart]

What is the nature of the world in which Mandelson is operating that Epstein can walk in when he's in his underwear and take a photograph of him?

[Alastair Campbell]

That stuff I found really shocking.

[Rory Stewart]

This episode is brought to you by Fuse Energy. Most EV owners are overpaying without realizing it. They're either charging at wrong time or on the wrong tariff. A smart EV charger changes that by aligning how you charge with how electricity is priced.

[Alastair Campbell]

Fuse sets you up with a smart charger linked to an EV tariff, so your car charges overnight automatically when electricity is at its cheapest.

[Rory Stewart]

That can mean as little as 16 pence per kilowatt hour, compared to 24 pence or more on a standard tariff. You don't manage it manually. Fuse does that for you. With everything visible in the app.

[Alastair Campbell]

Fuse will install it in one visit, then take care of the tariff and smart charging so the car is ready when you are. With the right setup, EV driving can cost under 3p per mile.

[Rory Stewart]

Getting the electric car was the big decision. A smart EV charger is the Easy 1. Visit fusenergy.com EV this podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Car shopping shouldn't feel like preparing for a marathon of paperwork. That's why Carvana makes buying and financing your car easy from start to finish. Search thousands of vehicles with great prices, all online, all on your time. And when you're ready, your new car shows up right at your door. It doesn't get better than that. Buy your car the easy way on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. Welcome to Restless Politics with me, Rory.

[Alastair Campbell]

Stewart and me, Ernst Campbel Alastair.

[Rory Stewart]

We're going to be focusing on this episode exclusively on the question of Jeffrey Epstein, Peter Mandelson, and the biggest story, because I think it's time to really step back and see not just corruption in the British government, but the bigger story of what's happening in the world of democracies around the world, how very wealthy people are beginning to distort and influence politics in so many different ways, with implications that go a long way beyond Epstein and Mandelson. Let's start with the Epstein story and then bring Mandelson into that story. So, as almost everybody in the world now is aware, this is a man who was a sexual predator, a human trafficker of underage girls, abused and violated and destroyed them, some of whom have subsequently taken their own lives. He rose in a slightly mysterious way to extraordinary wealth and social connections. And the story, as it relates to Britain, really gets going about 25 years ago when he becomes close to Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, former Prince Andrew. And it's in 2001, before 9 11, that we have these stories around Virginia Jeffrey and Prince Andrew. Virginia Jeffrey, of course, hadn't taken her own life then. Fast forward 2008. Epstein is sent to prison for trafficking after a very, very complicated investigation that takes place with a lot of resistance. And the next part of the story is about people who continue to see him and associate with him Even after his 2008 prosecution, one of whom, of course, is Peter Mandelson, who stayed in his apartment as the first Secretary of State, effectively the Deputy Prime Minister, after Epstein had been convicted. He flies out as the second most senior person in the British Cabinet and stays in Epstein's flat. And then many, many other people are bought into this. And then in 2019, Epstein, of course, killed himself. His partner, Ghislaine Maxwell, whose father, Robert Maxwell, you knew very well, is currently in jail, appealing. This has become absolutely the heart of MAGA and Trump and the release of the Epstein files. First thing to say, the real core of this story, of course, are the victims who are underage girls, many of whom have found their names dragged into the press in ways that they never consented to, some of whom have taken their own life. And we're about to go on to a story which is also about insider trading, political corruption, networking. But nobody should forget that at the core of this story is the extremely horrifying evil actions of this predator and the men who, with him, engaged in this extraordinary pattern of industrial abuse.

[Alastair Campbell]

There's so many names in here, and we shouldn't assume or allege that just because your name is in these files that Somehow you're guilty of crime.

[Rory Stewart]

Very quickly, before we get to Mandelson, here's some figures. So between 2003, 2004, Epstein sent $75,000 to accounts linked to Mandelson. In June 2009, Mandelson, now the first Secretary of State, effectively deputy Prime Minister in Gordon Brown's government. So he's right there at the core of the government, forwards an internal government memo to Epstein on the government's plans to sell $20 billion of assets. And Epstein asks some questions which manelsen replies to. December 2009, Mandelson tries to amend government policies on banker bonuses at Epstein's request. Also in December 2009, Mandelson encourages Epstein to tell Jamie Dimon, the head of JP Morgan, to mildly threaten the government around bankers bonus tax plans. Three months earlier, Epstein had sent £10,000 to Mandelsen's partner, now husband from osteopathy course. And in May 2010 Mandelson gave Epstein advance notice for 500 billion euro bailout from the EU to save the euro. Over to you.

[Alastair Campbell]

There are exchanges with Epstein during the five days between the election that led to David Cameron being Prime Minister. Those five days between the election and the coalition being formed, when Gordon Brown was kind of trying to hang on and I was in the room for most of that time and as was Peter, there's a sort of curious mix of the obvious shocking sense that he's actually talking to Jeffrey Epstein about that while it's happening.

[Rory Stewart]

You almost could have been in the room and he's texting under the table to his mate Jeffrey Epstein while you're trying to pull stuff together.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I don't know but there's one bit where he talks about, he describes how there is, you may know, there's this secret passage from number 10 through underground to the Ministry of Defense where if you're as tall as I am, it's quite a difficult place to walk. And he talks about how he's going there with Gordon.

[Rory Stewart]

In that case he's sort of showing off.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think that is a kind of show, it is a form of showing off. Look, I was paranoid to the point of. I don't know how you describe it, but I was always very conscious whether I was talking publicly, doing briefings or talking privately, including to colleagues. Just be very, very careful with what you know that has the potential either to move the markets or to move the political dial. Just be very, very careful.

[Rory Stewart]

And this presumably. Let me just go back to the base of that. So you'd been a Journalist, professionally. You then come in to be Director of Communications. And one of the big changes is you go from having a job of essentially trying to get as much information as you possibly can out of the government to now understanding that you're privy to government secrets. And there's some things which actually journalists shouldn't know because it's against national interest.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. You know, we talked when the budget, the recent budget was published, we talked about just how incredible it was that so much stuff got leaked out. I mean, you're always talking to people, you're having private conversations, you're having public conversations, but you've just got to be very, very wary. And what you have a sense of with some of this stuff that Peter was sending to Jeffrey Epstein, including, in one case, you know, quite a detailed note about some decisions that were made being made in relation to the management of the global financial crisis. Now, that is, every line of that has got the potential to be market sensitive. You just got to be very, very careful.

[Rory Stewart]

And everybody in the system is aware of it. The treasury officials are incredibly aware of it. So Sir Nick macpherson, who was eventually the Permanent Secretary in the treasury, talks about his unbelievable shock. Because the one thing that senior treasury officials are aware is that you can make an enormous amount of money if you know what the government's going to do before it's going to do it. Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Or even to go back to the sort of walking under the tunnel if and when a Prime Minister is going to resign. It's not just that that's big news, but that is news on which people are betting. I don't just mean betting at the bookmakers, I mean betting on shorting markets on the bonds. So there's Epstein, who is not just Epstein, the guy who's got his sort of, as we see from these files, has got his tentacles into all sorts of people across economies all around the world. But it's, you know, one of his he's talking there about. There's one point which, again, I think was people were genuinely shocked by where Alistair Darling is Chancellor and Epstein is lobbying Peter, it would seem, on behalf of Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan, who was one of Epstein's associates, and Peter is advising that Jamie Dimon mildly threatens Alistair Darling with presumably saying, you know, we're a big bank, we've got a lot of interest we can pull out if you don't do what we want. And again, that to me is just like. I mean, look, I've known Peter for a very, very, very long time. We've had a very up and down checkered relationship. But that stuff I found really shocking.

[Rory Stewart]

One of the things that I'm trying to get my head around is before they sent Peter Mandelson to be the ambassador in Washington. So Keir Starmer, Morgan Matsuini, et cetera, will have vetted him before they decided to send him out to be the ambassador to Trump just over a year ago. And they will have been aware already that he's somebody who knew Jeffrey Epstein and they will have been aware that this was probably the biggest story in the world. So they will have sat him down and they presumably would have said, now's your opportunity. Tell us everything about your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein so that we can understand. I mean, did you take money from him? Did your husband take money from him? Did you pass information from him? Was he trying to get you positions on boards? Were you staying in his private apartments after the thing? Tell us about the relationship with Epstein and what is it you think happened in that meeting?

[Alastair Campbell]

I don't know. I honestly don't know. I think what happened with that. And you know, we talked about this at the time. Peter was always going to be a risk as an appointment and, and why.

[Rory Stewart]

Was he always going to be a risk?

[Alastair Campbell]

Because you look at the record, you know, we had two very, very high profile resignations, both of them really relating to issues of powerful men with money. And you know, you've seen me in places like Davos. I have a, I have a natural. Not revulsion is the wrong word. But I'm, I'm naturally very suspicious about very, very wealthy people. I look at the maga crowd now and I feel that's justified. Just be careful with them. Whereas I think there's something in Peter that he's, that he's drawn to them, finds them interesting, finds them, finds them attractive. And you know, there are people are interesting that have, of all the sort of connections that Epstein has. But I think it was a risk. And the, but on the vetting, you see, I think what happens, you know this from having been a minister. So when I was, when I was went into to government as a government spokesman, I was vetted in all sorts of different ways, but politicians aren't vetted in the same way. So Peter's been a politician, he was an mp, then he became a cabinet minister, the European Commissioner. Now at various stages there may have been background vetting going on. But I think actually what you think with particularly very high profile politicians of which Peter has been for a very long time, whether there's just a bit of complacency in things. Well, if there's anything really bad, it would come up by now.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

And I just don't know. So I don't know that I. Look the way this thing has developed, you know, he's had to resign from the Labour Party. There's this talk about him whether he loses his peerage, whatever. I doubt very much whether he'll be appearing in the House of Lords anytime soon. But at the same time, you do now have some pretty senior people inside the Labour Party calling for the police to get involved to see whether there was actually any potentially criminal insider trading type activity going on with this, this interaction with. With Epstein. I think this is damaging to all of us because it just looks. I don't know, it's not just the, you know, there we are, New Labor, I would argue, and I see part of my kind of role in life actually is making the case as to why New Labour was a successful political project. And this just kind of drags you down again. So I think it's bad for Labour now. I don't think it helps in relation to this by election that's coming up. It just looks like politics is a kind of horrible, murky game. And the thing about Peter Lewis, he's got all sorts of talents, but you know this, because we had conversations about it at the time, I think it was always going to be a risk. And I think part of the appointment at the time was actually Kier, possibly more, even more so, Morgan Matsuini wanting to project a sense of big characters, not afraid of having big characters around. And, you know, and Peter is talented. There's no doubt if you push to one side, the reasons for his resignations. He was an effective cabinet minister, he was an effective European commissioner, People say he was an effective ambassador. But I think he's two weaknesses to me. One has always been he's constantly wanted to tell the story about how effective he is rather than just get on and do it. I've seen the whole Third man thing. You know, the title of his book was all about kind of, you know, I'm just as important as they are kind of thing, rather than just get on and do the job and be a kind of proper political operator. And then the second thing is this, this sort of, I guess this propensity for risk and for, you know, men of power and wealth. Because I think there was. I mean, he did an interview a while back, actually quite recently, in fact. I sense he was doing a number of interviews. He Did Laura Kuenssberg. There's an interview that's come out today, Tuesday, in the Times, which clearly was done some time ago, which said to me, he was trying to engineer a way back into some sort of public position, and therefore he developed another narrative about himself that would maybe allow that, allow that to happen. You know, he clearly, I sense, was trying to get back into some sort of sense of back in public life. And yet he must have. I suspect he must have known there was more to come. This is done.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean, he must have. I mean, he must. I always feel that. That with a politician, it's that terrible sense that I think a lot of my colleagues went through once the press is after them, that they're lying there in bed with their partners, thinking, are they going to find out this? Are they going to find out that? What skeletons the couple are they going to find?

[Alastair Campbell]

Or you develop an attitude that says, well, yeah, that brought me down, but I came back. And then that brought me down, but I came back and I can do it again. You know, we saw with people like Marco Rubio in Davos. You know, people in public life can often, they're very good at giving themselves a narrative. You know, the old Marco Rubio would be completely ashamed of what Marco Rubio is doing now, but the new Marco Rubio is giving himself justification for doing it.

[Rory Stewart]

Ditto J.D. vance.

[Alastair Campbell]

J.D. vance, who, by the way, has been completely silent in all this stuff. And this is the JD Vance who said, this Epstein files is going to be the thing that destroys the left. And maybe just on the broader picture, because I think, you know, here in the uk, we're all talking about Peter Mandelson and to some extent, Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson. But actually, there is so much in this latest batch that is bad for Trump, that is bad for Melania, that is bad for Howard Lutnick, that is bad for Bill Gates, that is bad for Elon Musk, that's bad for Peter Thiel, that's bad for Steve Bannon, who's in there boasting that he's kind of got his Nigel Farage and Le Pen around his little finger. So there's so much stuff in there.

[Rory Stewart]

We'll continue to go through this allegation. It's also worth remembering, and this applies to people like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk and Donald Trump and Bill Clinton and even Peter Mandelson and others, that Epstein was also a notorious liar and a blackmailer. People like Bill Gates very, very firmly are on the record saying all the Emails from Epstein to him suggesting the most outrageous things are completely fabricated. So one of the challenges, this whole thing is trying to work out where the truth lies from a man who's taken his own life, where some of the victims have taken their own lives, and where criminal cases haven't yet been finished, which I guess may have been one of the reasons why Department of Justice was reluctant to release all this stuff.

[Alastair Campbell]

You've worked in the States and you've worked in the kind of charitable sector trying to get these very, very wealthy people to give you money. I don't know how much time you've had to actually look at this latest stuff, because there's so much stuff. But what's your US Take on it?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, let's start with that, because one of the questions is, what the hell did all these people. And, you know, you've mentioned some, and you can add Woody Allen and Larry Summers, and, you know, George Stephanopoulos is turning up at parties, and George Mitchell. Right. So what are they all doing? How do they all get dragged in? I was thinking about this, and I do know partly because when I was fundraising initially at Harvard and charities and many other things, I saw a little bit of this world. And the first thing is that somebody like Epstein is able to network by leveraging money and contacts. And in the case of Epstein, this is a evil man who is also simultaneously trafficking and abusing vulnerable underage girls. But the biggest story actually applies to many, many, many of these people, their ability to create these networks. So what actually happens at Epstein's parties? Number one, let's take Larry Summers. So Larry Summers was the. Is somebody I know reasonably well. He was the president of Harvard, also.

[Alastair Campbell]

A cabinet minister, and a cabinet minister.

[Rory Stewart]

Actually the treasury under Bill Clinton. So really big figure, and was the chairman of OpenAI most recently. He's just had to resign because of Epstein. So what happens there? Well, first thing is Epstein is somebody who's giving money to Harvard, gives $8 million to Harvard. So one of the things these universities do, they're perpetually fundraising or anyone running a charity, they're always short of money. So someone comes to you and they'll say, listen, you've got to meet this guy, Jeffrey Epstein. He's extraordinary. He could give you $8 million like that if he wanted to come along to dinner party meeting number two, it turns out Larry Summers is raising money for his wife's small charity. So now we have the university, which is professional. We have the wife. Number three, Epstein is giving him dating advice. So the Texts going back and forth are Larry saying, I went out for dinner with this girl, but she hasn't been back in touch with me for a few days. And Epstein's writing back saying, don't worry about it, Larry, play hard to get. She's pretending she's going out with a biker, but really you'll get back in with other ones. These billionaires, he's giving them apparently medical advice on their sexually transmitted diseases with a wealthy Emirati who owns a huge global company that's just a man called Sultan Ahmed bin Suleiman. They're sharing pornographic videos with each other, they're sharing sick jokes. So guys going out in Dubai, and Epstein's like, no girl in Dubai is safe tonight. But they're also trading endless micro favours. So Sultan bin Abu Salem will say, I'm going to the Trump inauguration. Can you arrange for Trump to shake my hand? And Epstein's in front of Trump's, right? Then Epstein will get back and say, I have another sexually transmitted disease. Say I have a Russian woman.

[Alastair Campbell]

Who are Russian women in the house?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I want to be trained as a massa. Can you arrange for him to be trained in a hotel in Turkey? Then he will get in touch with a Turkish billionaire who owns a huge hotel chain who says, no problem, I'll make it happen. Now, if you break down all the things that I've mentioned in my last sort of two minute rant, there are so many different things going on there. There's professional fundraising, there's personal fundraising, there's business connections, there's political introductions. Now, add to this, he also will invite Nobel Prize winners to dinner. He will put 21 physicists on a private island with him in order to discuss the future of gravity. You go to a dinner at his house and you've got Nobel Prize winners on one side and you've got film stars on the other. And then he does another trick. I'm going to stop doing this, but I just want to sort of explain the way that someone like this works, right? He now becomes the guy who, if you want to know what's happening in British politics, he's got Madelson on the speed dial. If you want to know what's happening in Israeli politics, Ehud Barak is staying in his house. He's got insight into what's happening in Russia.

[Alastair Campbell]

He's also offering his services, it strikes me, to the Russians in how to deal with Trump.

[Rory Stewart]

Offering services to Russians how to deal with Trump. And then there are all these Russian girls. So there's a Very interesting question of intelligence connections with Russia, with other intelligence agencies around the world. Because he's the perfect agent of influence for an intelligent agency. Because he can compromise people, he can blackmail people. He knows everybody. He's also moving their money around. So let's imagine you were a big American Investment bank like J.P. morgan, like J.P. morgan, which actually, incidentally has settled separately with Epstein's victims for other stuff. But let's not get specific on JP Morgan. Generally the structure is like this. Somebody contacts you, they could be from a country that's on the edge of being sanctioned, or there could be some questions about where their money came from. You facilitate with the American investment bank to open an account for them. You provide tax sheltering advice so that the person putting the money in doesn't get too involved. Then in return, you help the bank get inside information on how to change banking regulation in another country. And at the center of this whole world is this guy. Now, the really extraordinary thing is not how people are seeing him before 2008, because before 2008, the story is quite straightforward, right? I say to you, Alistair, listen, your interest in raising money for this mental health charity. I know this amazing guy called Jeffrey Epstein, who has these incredible parties in his penthouse, New York. Come along. It's extraordinary. You will meet Woody Allen, you will meet a Nobel prize winning physicist. Larry Summers will be there. He'll write a check for you. Oh, and listen, if you are late for a football match, he's got a private plane and he'll fix it to get you there, right? But then he's sent to jail. He's sent to jail for trafficking. And the extraordinary thing is that then after 2008, Mandelson continues to stay with him. Summers, a lot of these people that we've mentioned, very, very well known people continue to go to his office, including.

[Alastair Campbell]

People like Howard Lutnick, current Commerce Secretary, who has made a big thing about how he and his wife were disgusted by this guy way back when. But now we see the email saying, can we come to the island? Can we hang out? Elon Musk endlessly trying to hang out with him.

[Rory Stewart]

Steve Bannon trying to get us plane, Richard Branson saying, come around to the island, bring your Harim, bring your har in with him. So my question is, what is it that they told themselves? Is it that nearly 20 years ago, somehow people could convince themselves? Some people, not Tina Brown, who, to be fair, when she's invited to one of these parties with Woody Allen and Jeffrey Epstein and Charlie Rose, is like, what the hell is this a predator's party? No, I'm not going. You can F off. Right. So there are people who already, by then are like, excuse me know. But a number of other people, apparently from a certain generation, are somehow saying. I don't know what they're saying. Maybe they're saying there's some misunderstanding. He slept with a prostitute that got caught up in the laws somehow, but he served his time. It's fine now. He's a great philanthropist.

[Alastair Campbell]

I know that Peter Mandelson said that, you know, he wishes he hadn't believed him, in other words. And I guess what he was being forced to believe or asked to believe was that somehow, and this is what predators do, they project themselves as victims, right? So somehow the system is working against him, whereas, in fact, he's got the system in his palm of his hand.

[Rory Stewart]

And then presumably it helps if at the same time that you're going, everybody else is also going.

[Alastair Campbell]

That's how great networkers work. People are drawn to them in part because of their network. And this guy had an incredible network.

[Rory Stewart]

So when the Massachusetts Institute of Technology is taking money from him and also getting him to invest in startups, he is doing this trick of saying to mit, yes, I'll give you money, but what I really want to do is match fund with other philanthropists. So invite the other philanthropists to the island. I'll match fund that donation. So he's then rebuilding his network after his conviction through his philanthropic giving. And I think they must be saying to themselves at the board meeting, when people are like, are you sure we should be taking money from this? They're saying, well, but he's also, you know, talking to the Clinton Global Initiative, he's talking to AIDS foundation, he's talking to all these other things. So we're probably okay. They want money for their financial.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think the other thing is maybe the difference between the UK there's lots of differences in the UK and the US But I think the role of money in their politics and their public life is it plays a far bigger role than it does here. And I think people like that get away with a lot more. I think the reason why this is so damaging on the political front is because you do have this sense of what working people kind of think exists, which is a sort of global elite that can get away with anything. And, okay, Epstein went to jail and he's now dead, but these papers are full of names of people, and we.

[Rory Stewart]

Haven'T seen it all, have we?

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I don't think we have, which.

[Rory Stewart]

Is presumably why Trump was reluctant to release the Epstein files and Biden was reluctant to release the Epstein files. I mean, Biden and Trump have been sitting on a bomb that basically detonates under everything. But my guess is if you were to get hold of the emails of Elon Musk or the emails of Sam Altman and their photographs and things, you wouldn't get sexual predator activity, but you would get all the other stuff that I'm talking about. The peddling of influences, the introductions, the political information. Well, let's take a break.

[Alastair Campbell]

This episode is brought to you by Octa.

[Rory Stewart]

AI agents are suddenly everywhere. Across organizations, across systems, across everyday decisions. And that brings opportunity, but also risk. Because without identity, you can't really trust who or what is acting on your behalf.

[Alastair Campbell]

That's right. If you can't identify an agent, you can't govern it. And if you can't govern it, you can't safely rely on it. As these systems scale and take on.

[Rory Stewart]

More responsibility across your business, that's where identity becomes essential. Not as a technical detail, but as the foundation for trust, accountability and control. Okta helps organizations get that right by securing the identity of AI agents themselves. One clear layer of control, one consistent standard of trust so developers can move.

[Alastair Campbell]

Faster, IT and security teams can stay in control. And what once felt like risk starts to look like something you can manage with confidence rather than caution. Secure every agent. Secure any agent. Okta secures AI. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

[Rory Stewart]

January is when we reset everything. Routines, inboxes, intentions. We're back online, doing serious things. In the least, secure places from trains and cafes, wherever the WI fi happens to be.

[Alastair Campbell]

NORDVPN encrypts your connections, so whether you're commuting, traveling or working in public, your data isn't just drifting through the room hoping for the best.

[Rory Stewart]

It also includes Threat Protection Pro, which helps block malicious links and scan downloads. Particularly useful in January when people are clicking through job applications. Travel plans and inboxes full of messages.

[Alastair Campbell]

Marked urgent prices and content can quietly change depending on where you're browsing from. NORDVPN lets you change your virtual location so you can check what you're actually being shown.

[Rory Stewart]

One account covers up to 10 devices, or install it on your router. Cover the whole house.

[Alastair Campbell]

To get the best discount on your NordVPN plan, head to nordvpn.com restispolitics you'll also get four extra months free on the two year plan, plus a 30 day money back guarantee the link is in the episode description. I mentioned Bannon. This is the thing, because what I find really interesting about the reaction to all of this, this MAGA and their kind of fellow travelers here, the sort of Farage reform law, they've been pretty silent about the whole thing, except one.

[Rory Stewart]

Bit of maga, which isn't completely furious and obsessed with it.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, right, but okay, but I'm talking about the sort of. The leaders like J.D. vance, who's, you know, got a pretty active Twitter finger. He's been silent for five days. Okay, this is the guy who said this is going to bring down the left. Trump comes out yesterday and basically just says, we've talked enough about Epstein and there's nothing bad about it for me, which is not true. He and Melania are all over this stuff.

[Rory Stewart]

And he's broken, though, hasn't he, with Marjorie Taylor Greene? Because this is her obsession, isn't it?

[Alastair Campbell]

Why he's broken, I don't know. But let me just give you this one, right? There's so much stuff in here. There's an exchange between Steve Bannon and Epstein. Bannon, I'm now an advisor to Front. I think he means the National Front, Salvini in the league, AfD, Swiss People's Party, Orban, Land and Freedom and Farage. Next May, European Parliament elections, we can go from 92 seats to 200 and shut down any crypto legislation or anything else we want reply. Roger that.

[Rory Stewart]

So we've got far right nationalists, we've got crypto legislation, but what is he actually asking for? He's asking for support, financial support for their campaigns, and probably also introductions to these very shadowy groups that do campaigning. The kind of groups that I was talking about came to me with the London Merrill thing that are going to do sock puppets things. And that's where his connection to other jurisdictions, intelligence agencies, other campaigns come in. Partly, Epstein is a massive bullshitter, right? So he's endlessly exaggerating his influence, but he will have given Bannon the impression probably that he's worth ten times as much as he has and that he can make politics and campaigning happen all over the world.

[Alastair Campbell]

And the truth is, Bannon is connected to all those people and has been helping all of those people. But I think that's one of the reasons why Farage et al have just been pretty much silent about this.

[Rory Stewart]

One of the interesting things goes on when you read this is they're all bullshitting each other.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, for sure. But just to give you a few more, there's. Because I Mean, there's so much stuff in here. But like, so, for example, Epstein setting up a meeting between Peter Thiel, Tate bro, libertarian, and the guy that Biden was going to make head of the CIA in 2014. And doing that, not just saying he's doing it, doing that. Thiel comes up a lot in this stuff.

[Rory Stewart]

Peter Thiel is also the major cornerstone investor in tech companies employing former CIA staff and working on contracts with the CIA and the Department of Defense to deliver. And he's meeting the new director of the CIA. So there is a direct commercial interest for Peter Thiel. And the nominated future director of the CIA should not, in a functioning system, be meeting Thiel without officials in the room because of the sensitivity of the procurement contracts.

[Alastair Campbell]

Right, but look at the world that we're in now. I mean, that was in a world where there were kind of rules and there were guardrails. And now we have a president who says he doesn't need rules and he doesn't need guardrails. He just needs his own morality, whatever that might mean. We then have teal, essentially. This goes back to my sovereign individual theory of life, essentially saying they need more chaos. When there is chaos, this is on the international front. America has a better chance of becoming a hegemony.

[Rory Stewart]

This is him saying to Epstein, he.

[Alastair Campbell]

And Epstein having this. This conversation. I mean, Musk, honestly, Elon Musk comes over as truly pathetic in these. You know, I've had this theory that Musk's big. You know, the guy's smart and he's built himself into, you know, supposedly the richest guy in the world. But he has this embarrassing need to be cool and to be considered funny. So he's constantly badgering Epstein to know when the coolest party is going to be on the island where they can go there. Epstein's helping him sort his publicity for Tesla. Epstein was also giving Peter Mandelson advice on his biography. He's just sort of. He's into these people at every level.

[Rory Stewart]

All of the time, and he connects more. So the man that I was talking about, who he's doing sick jokes about chasing girls in Dubai, is also getting in touch with him, asking whether Mandelson can be on the board of his new company. And then he's reaching out to Mandelson recommending. So he's got something different for everyone. For some people, it is very, very young girls. There are other people in his network who are not interested in that at all. Peter Manelson is gay. There's no suggestion, presumably, that some of the women he's dealing with are interested in young women. They instead are chasing him because they want tiny bits of money for their partner or they want money for their charity. The third category is people like Elon Musk, who may well not be interested in any of that stuff, but just wants to be at a cool party. Steve Bannon, a lot of what he's texting about is, can I get on your plane? Can I have a free plane ride? The genius of Epstein is to be able to use the ability to offer something different to everyone. I mean, even you ended up in this apartment, right?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, I did, yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

And you met him.

[Alastair Campbell]

I did.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Once, yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

No, but I mean, if I was honest, if I was on judgment, but if I was honest with myself, would I. When I was running a Harvard Center, 2008, before he was convicted, if somebody had said, oh, you've got to get together with this amazing guy who has these great parties in New York, he could give money to a center. Come along with me, I'll take you to the dinner party.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think maybe the fact that I met him on my own in some very odd circumstances where I just bumped into Ghislaine on a plane and she said, what are you doing tonight in New York and come and meet my boyfriend. That it was one on one.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Because he. I'm not saying this in hindsight. I said it at the time. He gave me the creeps.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Not in any. He wasn't sort of saying, oh, do you want to come meet some young girls? There's none of that. But he gave me the creeps. Mainly the name dropping.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

And the sense of being the center of his own universe.

[Rory Stewart]

Presumably, though, you failed the test in a way also because those. His name dropping is designed to try to see whether you're prepared to drop names with him. And as he explores these different contacts. Are you getting interested? And are you, Alastair, going to say, oh, well, actually, I know this guy and there's a business deal here, or here's some gossip from this particular world leader.

[Alastair Campbell]

The other thing that's interesting when you see. Because yet again, over the papers today, there's the picture of Peter Mandelson in his underwear.

[Rory Stewart]

What's with the underwear? Why is he standing in his underwear with a girl in his room?

[Alastair Campbell]

I wonder whether Epstein was filming everything that went on within his houses.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, yeah, I think definitely.

[Alastair Campbell]

So that picture is probably. And Peter's not going to volunteer to have himself taken. His picture taken.

[Rory Stewart]

No, no, no, no, no, no. These pictures, if you look at all the pictures that are being released. So many of them have been deliberately got by Epstein because he has something over you. I mean, it's no accident that his pictures of Prince Andrew are pictures of him trying to kiss someone or lying over a girl, or Mandelson in his underwear, or Mandelson in his bathrobe. But it is also questionable what is the nature of the world in which Mandelson is operating, that Epstein can walk in when he's in his underwear and take a photograph of him?

[Alastair Campbell]

No, I'm wondering whether it is even a photograph or is it a secret camera, Whether it's some sort of cctv, I don't know. I've got no idea.

[Rory Stewart]

I almost get the impression because of the way they're looking at them, they're often looking up. He's come in and sort of surprised them and taken a little picture of them.

[Alastair Campbell]

But that particular one, isn't it literally, it looks like somebody's briefing or dictating.

[Rory Stewart]

I don't know, in a weird way, what's more creepy, hidden cameras or the idea that actually you've created a world where everybody's in a permanent state of undress and your host can walk in and out taking photographs of you? Can I finish with a big politics point, which is how do we protect our democracies against this? Right, We've got hundreds of MPs on low incomes, some of them very insecure, struggling to get jobs. When they leave, they are perfect prey for wealthy, well connected men who can offer them board positions, invite them to parties, put them on private planes. We have to think about what it is with laws, structures, incentives, culture, which stops this happening again and again and again. Because we've only seen this because Epstein happens to be the most famous sexual predator in the world, who killed himself. Otherwise we'd never seen any of this, right? Mandelson would have got away with this for the rest of his life. And my guess is there are dozens, dozens, dozens of people involved in very, very odd relationships of this sort. And that's why I think that although Keir Starmer is a very honorable man, he should not actually even have been taking favours like glasses, clothes for his wife, et cetera. Because as soon as you get into these relationships, however innocent they seem, somebody's got something over you. Once they've bought close to your wife, they can always pick up the phone. And you've got to pick up the phone.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, I think you've got to be very, very wary of it. And a lot of People are not, I'm afraid I think it's partly the influence of American politics. American politics has a massive influence on all of us, all of the big democracies. And it is driven by money, it's driven by the lobbyists, it's driven by. And what we're seeing now with Trump is a level of open, admitted, boastfully embraced corruption that is almost unthinkable. But the reason why I find. You said you're going to make a political point. The reason why I find this politically so upsetting and so difficult is because it just, it feeds into this idea. They're all at it. They're all, they're all the same, they're all. It plays into that kind of anti politics agenda. And the truth is, I hope people get the message. They actually know we're not all the same. We're not all driven just by money. We don't all see a link between connection, network and policy decisions. We're not all insider traders. But it's terrible, it's terrible for politics. And the thing about Trump, I mean, Trump just brazenly yesterday says, oh, people fell up and talk about Epstein. There's nothing bad about me. There's loads of stuff that's bad about him, but he managed to drown it out. This week alone, he's the most mentioned person in the files. He's had this big crypto thing going on with the Emiratis, which is again, no previous president I don't think would have done. He's suing the IRS for, is it 13 billion because they put out his tax returns. He's suing the comedian Trevor Noah. They've arrested Don Lemon for turning up a protest and he's announced the closure of the, what was once the respected Kennedy center, which is now the Donald J. Trump Kennedy Center. This is the Steve Bannon flood the zone with shit and nobody knows where to look. And I think the success, this is what the American media and American politics really need to look deep into themselves for. They've allowed something to be created where scandal is no longer scandal, it's just a story and it lasts half a news cycle. It's a scary bad world.

[Rory Stewart]

I wonder actually whether we may not be underestimating the damage this will do to Trump because Marjorie Taylor Greene famously has broken from Trump around this issue. I think the MAGA base has made the Epstein files. I'm not talking here about the leadership, I'm talking about the base has made the Epstein files right at the heart of their whole ideas of conspiracy Theories, politics, child sex rings, et cetera. And of course there's a bit of this which actually seems to be a real life version almost of a kind of QAnon conspiracy where genuinely powerful wealthy people are involved in abusing underage girls.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

So I think it will damage Trump. It's probably the one thing for his base that he's done more actually than what ICE has been doing, more than what he's been doing in terms of domestic civil liberties. Given that their whole movement is about an out of touch billionaire elite class that's above the law and is abusing underage children. I think this is a big problem for him.

[Alastair Campbell]

Even though Trump has sort of just weighed this latest batch away in that way that he has, and he's helped to do that by lots of the media. I think you're right. I think there's a lot in here that, provided the American media doesn't just play his game, I think has the potential to do him damage. But I think on your bigger point, I think this is so damaging for politics everywhere because your question about how do we deal with corruption, if you have what is seen and what is styled as the leading democracies of the world, in America's case, so drowning in this stuff where we talk about billion dollar campaigns, where even local campaigns, you are so dependent on going out to the people with the money who then want something in return. So I think unless we do get away from the way that money controls politics, then we're all going to drown with this stuff. Because the truth is American politics is so dominant in all of our lives right now.

[Rory Stewart]

So first thing we could do is campaign finance reform. I mean, what I found when I went from running as a local constituency MP to trying to run for mayor of London, where I needed to try to raise million, 2 million for a race, is suddenly you become very, very aware of how compromising that is trying to get people to write you checks of 1050, 100,000. So campaign finance reform. Tories shouldn't be funded by the very wealthy. Labor shouldn't be funded by the trade unions. We should do what Malinoskas is doing.

[Alastair Campbell]

Far who's funded by Iranians. He's offered with some church warden with links to Kazakhstan, that's why he was in Dubai or somewhere on crypto and.

[Rory Stewart]

Lives in Thailand, etc. Absolutely. So campaign finance reform number two, I'd like MPs salaries and pensions to be increased, very popular with the public, so that they're less tempted to get involved in the dubious stuff. And you would combine that with very, very strict rules, very strict rules on what jobs they can take within three years of leaving Parliament and make sure that they're properly paid and rewarded so they're not tempted to bend those rules. And then, I'm afraid, absolutely. And this, again, is something that Farage has done and again and again come down like a ton of bricks on people like Farage and Boris Johnson, who don't properly declare these trips, these connections. I mean, what is the Lebedev party story with Boris Johnson, other than an exact version, minus the underage girls of the Epstein story, Glamour, film stars, celebrities, party networks, connections, money, intelligence, connections, compromise, and finally ending up in the House of Lords. So I would love to see maybe Keir Starmer, because this is in his wheelhouse, making cleaning up politics part of his business. But you don't clean up politics, I'm afraid, by continuing to reduce MP salaries, their pensions, you just create more and more desperate people who are going to get greedier and greedy. Not all of them. I mean, there are. There are figures like Jeremy Corbyn, who I suspect is not on the.

[Alastair Campbell]

Mate, listen, let's be fair. There are a lot of MPs who are not bent. There are a lot of MPs.

[Rory Stewart]

Ed Miliband famously was an expenses saint. Did very well, didn't claim his expenses. But I saw Peter Manelson in 2011, 2012, going around handing his business card out to people. I saw people in my own party moving on and getting jobs. I saw this whole question of, what are you doing putting MPs on your board? What's it about? What are they bringing to the party? Well, they're not bringing great expertise in private equity. The only thing they're bringing is connections, lobbying, et cetera. So cleaning that all up, so important.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think we've kidded ourselves for a long time that because we're not as bad as America, we're not a corrupt country now. We're not as corrupt as America, Our politics is not as bad as American politics. But there's another example where we just turned blind eye. You mentioned the Lebedev trip with Johnson. We still don't know what that was about. I mean, why is Lebedeff in the House of Lords? Why did Roman Abramovich end up owning Chelsea? I mean, Bill Browder was genuinely shocked that the British establishment, of which at that time I was a part, allowed this stuff to happen. So I think you're right. I mean, look, we said this when Labour were in opposition. I think cleaning up our politics. Making people feel that democracy means something, I think is an urgent political challenge. And you know, if you're Keir Starmer there he goes off to China, has a pretty successful visit, comes back, does a statement in the House of Commons. And what was he talked about? Had to talk about yesterday. Epstein Mandelson, corruption in politics, gotta clean it up. Okay, and tomorrow we're back with the Question Time. We're going to talk about Iran and we're going to talk about Hungary election coming up there. We're going to talk about the upcoming by election in Manchester and a very interesting special election that's just happened in Texas with a massive swing against the Republicans. See you then.

[Rory Stewart]

See you then. Bye bye. Foreign.

[Alastair Campbell]

Hi there, everybody.

[Dominic Sambrook]

It's Dominic Sambrook here from the Rest Is History and Gordon Carrera from the REST Is Classified. Now, over the last month or so, the regime in the Islamic Republic of Iran has been pushed to the edge, having seen the largest protest for a generation ripping across the country. Tens of thousands of people have been killed by the ayatollah's forces since the uprising began. And a lot of people outside Iran are asking, is this the beginning of the next Iranian revolution? And Goal Hanger is covering every element of this. On the Rest Is Classified, David and I have looked at the role of intelligence agencies in this conflict. With the Internet blackouts and so much unknown, we've been looking at whether spies are best placed to judge whether the regime is truly at risk of falling. Now on the Rest Is History, we have been looking at the origins of the Iranian regime at the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which saw the fall of the last shah and his replacement by the rule of the ayatollahs. Now, given that the last shah's son is being touted abroad as the man who might, just might, save Iran, you can't understand what is happening now without understanding what happened back then at the end of the 1970s. But it's not just our own two podcasts that are covering Iran. If you want to know whether Donald Trump's military buildup in the region means it's likely he's going to wade in and force regime change. Here Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart cover the latest developments in the Rest Is Politics. And our dear friends at the Rest is Money have been looking at the economic collapse, the corruption and the impact of the sanctions that have been eating away its social cohesion in Iran over recent years and have pushed so many people onto the streets and on empire, they've been looking at the similarities and differences between 1979 and today. How is it that a country that less than 50 years ago forced the Shah out of power is now seeing crowds chanting Long live the Shah? So whatever happens next, to the people of Iran and to all those brave souls who've turned it on the streets to protest, stay tuned to Goal Hanger for all the context and the answers and the analysis that you need. Find. The rest is history. The rest is classified empire. The rest is politics and the rest is money. Wherever you get your podcasts.