Loading summary
Transcript69 lines
- [00:00]
Alistair Campbell
Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics. To support the podcast, listen without the adverts and get early access to episodes and live show tickets, go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com this episode is powered by Fuse Energy.
- [00:15]
Podcast Advertiser 1
Most of us are buying energy in the dark not knowing what it costs. You wouldn't do that with your weekly food shop. But with energy, you're often charged first and only find out the number later.
- [00:25]
Alistair Campbell
When you don't have that clarity, you usually end up paying more than you should, which is what Fuse Energy is working to change about how energy works
- [00:32]
Podcast Advertiser 1
the average household switching to Fuse can save around £200 on their energy bills.
- [00:38]
Alistair Campbell
Fuse handles the practical side. The app shows what you're spending day by day and what that actually means for your bills.
- [00:44]
Podcast Advertiser 1
For listeners to the show, there's an added benefit. Use the code politicswhenyou switch and you'll receive a free trip subscription.
- [00:52]
Alistair Campbell
Switch to Fuse Energy and save around £200 on your energy bills. Use the code POLITICS for a free trip subscription. Fuseenergy.com politics so good. So good. So good.
- [01:05]
Podcast Advertiser 2
New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores. Now get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone, Marc Jacobs, free people and more.
- [01:15]
Alistair Campbell
How did I not know Rack has Adidas?
- [01:17]
Anthony Scaramucci
Cause there's always something new.
- [01:19]
Podcast Advertiser 2
Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.
- [01:32]
Podcast Advertiser 3
It's tax season and at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to four 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.
- [02:10]
Alistair Campbell
Welcome to an emergency episode of the Rest Is Politics with me, Alistair Campbell, and today not with Rory Stewart, who is somewhere on a half term ski slope with his family, but with a very old friend and colleague of mine, Charlie Fortner. Lord Fortner served the Blair government in several roles and the most important, which for this discussion were Solicitor General, Secretary of State for justice, and Lord Chancellor. Because the reason for this special episode is the huge news and it is Huge around the world, this. I've checked that. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew, has been arrested on the Sandringham Estate. He's been taken into custody as his homes are searched and he's being quizzed in relation to possible misconduct in public office. It's just the latest chapter in a long saga involving Andrew and the child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, who ended his own life seven years ago now, yet whose impact continues to reverberate in so many ways, not least for the survivors of his crimes still seeking justice and should say, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has repeatedly, consistently denied any wrongdoing. Now, Charlie, first of all, thank you so much for doing this.
- [03:21]
Charlie Falconer
Thank you.
- [03:21]
Alistair Campbell
I mean, you're honored? You're going to tell me I'm honored, I'm privileged?
- [03:24]
Charlie Falconer
Yes. I'm sorry, I took that as red.
- [03:26]
Alistair Campbell
Really?
- [03:28]
Charlie Falconer
But could I say how honoured and privileged I am?
- [03:30]
Alistair Campbell
Excellent. On a scale of 1 to 10, how gobsmacked were you to hear the news that the King's brother, supposedly the favored son of the late Queen Elizabeth, is spending his 66th birthday in a police station being grilled about a crime which, if proven, carries with it the prospect of life imprisonment?
- [03:50]
Charlie Falconer
Well, absolutely amazed in the context of thinking about this from a sort of distance of a few years, but less and less amazed as two things have been happening. One, the release of information about Epstein from the Epstein files, and as it were, everybody recoiling in horror in what they're reading about a whole range of people. But secondly, the increasing sense that the law enforcement authorities in the UK would be bound to act if the idea that everybody is equal before the law had any meaning. So it became, I think, more and more likely that the normal steps in an investigation would take place not only as against Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, but also against, for example, Peter Mandelson, who got caught in exactly the same sense that the law enforcement authorities just could not do nothing.
- [04:46]
Alistair Campbell
What was really interesting and watching the whole thing unfold this morning was these police cars arrive. Now, were there media already there striking out Andrew? Did the police tip them off that they were going to be there? But why was he arrested? Surely at this stage of investigation, wouldn't the normal process be that you'd perhaps make contact with his lawyer and say, would he come in for a conversation or could we set up a meeting or whatever it might be? Why would they go this heavy handed? Is that to show that they deliberately saying nobody is above the law and we're taking this very seriously?
- [05:22]
Charlie Falconer
Well, I mean, I Don't know. I couldn't agree more with you that it's quite odd that they arrested. And even if you've got a reasonable suspicion that a serious crime might be committed, you're only allowed under the law to arrest somebody if it's, quote, necessary to do so. And the normal things about necessity are, are you going to flee the country, are you somebody who might start to damage property? Neither of which I would have thought would be in play here. The normal, as it were, justification given for necessity is, quote, to allow prompt and effective investigation. So the effect of arresting Andrew Mountbatten Windsor was, first of all, it means that the police can ask him questions because if you're not arrested, you don't need to stay in a police station to be asked questions. And secondly, it allows them to take away from his home or anywhere else that he occupies or, or on his own person evidence that might be relevant to their investigation. For example mobile telephones or computers. You would very frequently arrest somebody who's not a flight risk or anything like that because you want, without them having the chance to, as it were, prepare themselves properly, ask them lots of questions.
- [06:45]
Alistair Campbell
Now we understand, and you know, we don't know that much, there's wall to wall discussion and debate about this, but we understand this relates to his time as UK Special Representative for International Trade and Investment, UK Trade Envoy, which was a position that he had for about a decade, starting when we were part of the government. So it's not, so far as we know at this stage, about allegations of the sexual abuse for which Epstein has been convicted. And he was in prison, as we all know, when he ended his own life. Tell me about the charge, misconduct in public office. Whenever I hear that phrase, I don't know why, but Boris Johnson comes into my head. But of course, he seems to have got away with quite a lot of stuff so far. What do you have to prove to establish that a crime has been committed related to misconduct in public office?
- [07:37]
Charlie Falconer
Well, first of all, you've got to be a public official of some sort. And the most common charges are often against police officers.
- [07:43]
Alistair Campbell
Okay. And if you're a member of the
- [07:45]
Charlie Falconer
Royal Family, I don't think you would be a public official for the purpose of this crime. I think that misconduct in public office means you've been appointed to a public office. And I think the courts would say a public official does not include simply being a member of the Royal Family because it's very, very difficult to identify what the role involves. How would you judge abusing that position and just don't think it was intended to apply to that. It's intended to apply to somebody who holds a public office, like UK Trade Envoy, which he was for 10 years, as you've said. And then the elements of the crime are deliberately misperforming that office in some way. And the classic example is a police officer who uses his position as a police officer to access, for example, criminal records for his own personal use, to give to his friends or to damage his enemies. Secondly, the abuse has got to be so significant that it reduces the standing of the person in public reputation. There's got to be no reasonable justification for it and it's got to be done deliberately, I. E. You've got to know when you're doing it that you shouldn't be doing it. It's got to be so awful as to make everybody in the public, not everybody, but reasonable people, think this really is an abuse of your office and you've got to have no reasonable excuse for it.
- [09:17]
Alistair Campbell
That sounds to me like quite a high bar.
- [09:19]
Charlie Falconer
It is quite a high bar. And the sorts of examples that are given are the police officer who accesses criminal records. There's a case of a police officer investigating a crime who sexually hits upon a vulnerable witness, abusing his position as a police officer. Another example, not in the more recent memory, but earlier, a MP who fiddled his expenses. That was said to be misconduct in public office. So the elements here would be said to be, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, you've got this job as a UK trade envoy. Your job is to promote UK trade for the country. If, and it's a very big if, if instead of that, you used the job for your own interests, flagrantly, that would be misconduct in public office.
- [10:16]
Alistair Campbell
And the other part that you mentioned there, which I think makes this a difficult bar, is when we talk about abusing the public's trust, the issue of reputation, particularly at the moment with the reputation of politics as it is the reputation of public life, that sounds to me quite a woolly thing. Again, quite a difficult bar to cross. And this is unprecedented because so far as I can remember, I. Have we ever had a Royal arrested like this before?
- [10:43]
Charlie Falconer
Well, in modern times, no Royal has ever been arrested. The example that every citing is Charles I. But what happened to Charles I was that he lost a civil war and the winners, the parliamentarians, then took him prisoner, like a prisoner of war. And he remained a prisoner of war until he was then charged with high treason and executed. He was never Arrested like this because they were investigating a criminal offense. He was just the loser, as it were, who then paid the price of being the loser. There's never, ever, ever been anything like this in modern times, or indeed in pre modern times, when simply what happens if you're a royal, if you ended up in the wrong end of it, you ended up being killed or something terrible happening to you, but you weren't being arrested in the context of a rather well ordered criminal justice system.
- [11:31]
Alistair Campbell
And I mean, I just wonder whether what's happening here one is a combination of things. It's the unspeakable nature of Epstein's crimes, which we already knew about. It's the scale of his contacts and networks and operations and the cynicism of those who were involved in a lot of that you've also had, including I think this morning he did an interview on the BBC. When you have the. The Prime Minister saying that anybody who can give evidence in relation to this should do. When you have a former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, producing evidence based upon his own analysis of both the files and his experience when he was Prime Minister, then I guess in a way the police are being given permission perhaps to go down roads that in the past they might have been very, very wary of going down.
- [12:28]
Charlie Falconer
Is it more than permission? Is the pressure not absolutely immense to do something? And one of the striking, striking, striking things about this, though it may not be that striking, is watching how cases are investigated at the moment. They normally take absolutely forever to get investigated. And if there is any degree of complexity, and there's very considerable complexity in this, you would, and this might be legitimate, expect the police to take months to reach a conclusion about what they're going to do, partly because they want to be on sure ground and partly because they don't want to make a mistake in relation to it. The search warrant in relation to Peter Mandelson's premises, the arrest and searches of Prince Andrew's premises, they've all happened at incredible speed, because I am assuming that the starting point for these, or the point that has led to these investigations starting is the most recent releases of the 3 million documents in the Epstein case, which is only a month or two away, basically. So I think there is a sense that authorities have to act. So there is enormous pressure on the authorities to act and they have to be seen to be saying nobody's immune in relation to all of this. And of all the people in all the world who have previously been thought to be immune, it's the Royal Family. And so In a way, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor is the clearest demonstration that nobody is above the law.
- [14:06]
Alistair Campbell
Interesting. The King's statement and the King's statement. We assume that the King and Downing street, that nobody was tipped off in advance that this was happening. We don't know that, but I think we can assume that.
- [14:17]
Charlie Falconer
I mean, watching the television this morning, Buckingham palace has said the King was not tipped off in advance.
- [14:22]
Alistair Campbell
So they. Very quickly, they hear the news the same pretty much as everybody else. Very quickly they put together a statement in his name, I have learned. So he's very much leaning into owning it. With the deepest concern, the news about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, not my brother, but Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner by the appropriate authorities. In this, as I have said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. As this process continues, it wouldn't be right for me to comment further. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all, to Charles R. And of course, what that's about is actually at a time when something is happening that will inevitably have people saying, this is so bad for the monarchy. This is so terrible for the monarchy. That is him leaning into the sense of the institution is above all this. You're a very effective PR kind of guy, Charlie. You've had lots of experience. Do you think that was an effective piece of communication by his match?
- [15:40]
Charlie Falconer
Put aside the question of pr? I thought it was an incredibly impressive statement. I mean, if you look at it, the wording is slightly strange. I just mean syntactically, not in its content, but the content was saying an incredibly important thing, which is my duty comes before my family. And that last bit, when he says, we will continue in our duty and service to the nation is a very striking statement, is it not, of somebody saying, my family have to be sacrificed? And that's what he was saying, wasn't it?
- [16:15]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, that's what. That's. That's exactly what I read when. When I first heard it. And I agree with you. I think it was. It was a very deliberate emphasis upon the institution being more powerful than anybody who's within it. But I do think, as a piece of public relations, you say it's an impressive statement, and I get that. But actually, I think what they have to do, because, I mean, maybe we should talk a little bit about whether we do Think there's long term impact upon the monarchy in a way. They have to cauterize this, they have to see Andrew. That's why he's been expelled, that's why he's been lost his titles, that's why he's lost the name. But I think you could make the case that this has been coming for some time. Have they felt that maybe they are in a more open to the sort of impunity that quite a lot of leading politicians around the world feel they can enjoy at the moment? Have the royals felt that maybe they're in that space? I don't know.
- [17:10]
Charlie Falconer
The change for them must in part be the much greater visibility about things that Andrew did. It's not possible just to say, no, no, no, we're not going to comment on any of this over a period of time. I'm not saying that was their position, but all this information that's pouring out makes it incredibly difficult for them. I think this is immensely damaging for the Royal family. I think that King Charles has behaved very well in relation to trying to deal with it. And I treat the statement he's made as completely genuine. But if your whole pitch is you are a royal family who gives an object lesson to the country, well, the fact that the police are now investigating Prince Andrew on abuse in public office indicates there's reasonable grounds to believe that he may have committed that crime. That is a terrible position. And if it's the family you're offering to the country, then the family looks like it may have a very big cheek in it in relation to the way that he has behaved. Now, he may be innocent, he may be guilty, but this cloud now hangs over them in a way that in my lifetime no cloud possibly to compare with it has ever hung over them.
- [18:24]
Alistair Campbell
If you go back to when the Queen was still alive and you had a period, she called it the annus eribilis and you had a lot of things going wrong. You had pretty much all of the royal marriages of their children going through periods of difficulty. You had a sense of scandal surrounding them on all sorts of all sorts of fronts and they got through it. Do you think this is far, far more serious and far worse? And is that just because of the time we're in, or is it because this relates to some of these awful crimes that Epstein, we know was guilty of which, which Andrew has consistently denied, but where that has already reduced his reputation to frankly very, very low?
- [19:11]
Charlie Falconer
I mean, the allegations against Andrew, which may or may not be true, are so much worse than anything that occurred during the annus horribilis. And even there was a period of time when the Princess of Wales, Prince Diana, was being critical, highly critical of the monarchy that was in the context of a family that was dysfunctional. But this is so much more serious and also carries with it this idea of an elite behaving in a way that was effectively abusing their position as being members of the royal family. That's the real hit, it seems to me. I mean, what he was said to be doing, and I'm talking here about the abuse in public office, which is now being investigated, was abusing its own position. It is alleged. I think it's so much more damaging than anything that's gone before. And the way it's now being reported gives the sort of corroboration to that. I mean, we are doing. We're having this conversation on the day he was arrested. There is literally no other news now apart from that. Yeah, and I can't remember that happening on any of the days of the Anna Cerebralist.
- [20:27]
Alistair Campbell
Maybe the divorce, maybe the Winds of Fire, Charles and Diana divorce. But, yeah, no, and this involves crime. That's the other. Yeah, this, this involves allegations that are criminal. One thing that Rory and I have talked a bit about on the podcast, Charlie, I've been. Your view is the fact that the many, many more people from the United States of America who are deeply enmeshed in Epstein's world, that they don't seem, with one or two exceptions, they don't seem to be getting anything like the public scrutiny or opprobrium that three Brits have done. Prince Andrew, as was Peter Mandelson and Ghislaine Maxwell. Do you think that's to do with. Do we have higher standards? Do we have a more inquisitive media, or do we have a more independent policing and legal system? No.
- [21:23]
Charlie Falconer
I mean, there are some people who are getting a hard time in America. For example, Larry Summers, who used to be the president of Harvard and the Secretary of the treasury under Clinton, he's getting a pretty hard time. I mean, I find extraordinary that there seems very little kickback on Trump in relation to it. Who's been most named? It is said in the Epstein file. Some people say it's up to a million times. But I don't know if that's just repeats or press cuttings. Is it because Trump has completely cauterized himself from sexual scandal in a whole variety of ways. So you can't kill him in relation to that politically. And once he's immune, then people aren't very interested, whereas here the Royal Family are so much more an object of interest. I mean, it's very odd that it's Peter Mandelson and Andrew Manbatten Windsor who are going to, as far as one could see, maybe pay the biggest price of the Epstein scandal more than anybody in America at all. Is it because we, because we've got a law enforcement arrangement that will actually follow it up?
- [22:32]
Alistair Campbell
Well, the truth is that the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi, we saw that in an inquiry. She was, she was, she was telling me it was horrific to watch to think she was like, she was like your equivalent when you were kind of the, the top, top dog lawyer in the uk. That was her. And she was basically just giving a sort of political, political performance. But I think the thing about, about Trump, you had a guy, a congressman out yesterday basically saying, when are the press going to start looking at all this stuff in the Epstein files about Trump where he says there are allegations of raping and killing children? Now, I just don't, I'm with you. I don't understand. I mentioned the word impunity. Has Trump so misinformed and so manipulated the public space that the thing he said, I could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I'd get away with it, with my base that that is the world that we're kind of now in?
- [23:32]
Charlie Falconer
Well, it looks like that. And I mean, even though he is a liar in so many respects, his authenticity gives him impunity, does it not? He is authentically not trying to present himself in the way that so many politicians do. There is no hypocrisy, although probably lots and lots of hypocrisies about Trump, but he is just as awful as he appears. You remember the Billy Bush interview shortly before the 2016 election when he described because he was a celebrity, he could put his hand down women's skirts and they didn't mind because he was a celebrity and wasn't that marvelous, which would have destroyed any other politician, but simply made people think, oh, that's just as it were, boys, banter, and therefore he's genuine and nobody else is. But do you have to be awful to be authentic?
- [24:24]
Alistair Campbell
Well, that is a, it's a horrible thought if you do. I mean, I don't think you do, but I think there is a, I think there is a double standard and I think that the, I think that the, the weaponization of justice. Of course, the Republicans say that the Democrats did it to them and it's a sort of, it's a. It's tit for tat. So I guess perhaps we should feel that there's something better in our system. Anyway, listen, Charlie, we've added to the many millions and millions of words that will be said today about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. I'd love to get Rory's view as he skis down another ski slope today. I think he's trying to qualify for the next Winter Olympics because of course, he's a huge, huge monarchist. He's a massive admirer of the, The King and will be, I suspect, feeling his pain right now.
- [25:14]
Charlie Falconer
I mean, there's one aspect of this is this will run literally for years now. So every three months or four months there'll be a further development. The bail of Andrew Mount Beth and Windsor will be extended. Then there'll be a question of whether he's going to be charged or not. And is it. I don't know if you remember the Paul Burrell trial, which on a scale of 1 to 10 is about half and this is about 12,000. The trial, remember the Jeremy Thorpe trial? I mean, this trial will be like the trial of the century.
- [25:48]
Alistair Campbell
If there is one, Charlie. If there is one.
- [25:50]
Charlie Falconer
Well, if there is one, yeah. And we have to wait and see whether. But if there is a trial, it will be a trial that will have to be presided over by the Lady Chief Justice. It will take place in the Old Bailey. It will be a trial the like of which has never been seen in the history of trials, basically. And this is two, three years down the track. And it's that sort of corrosion that is going to have a major effect. And Rory's views and what effect he thinks that's going to have on the monarchy is, is, is, is quite difficult because it's the family and as it were, you can't change the monarchy because the whole point about the monarchy is it's. You've got to keep on doing it generation to generation. It's not like you can change the Prime Minister. It's a, it's. We're all feeling a sense how well the King has done at the moment, but this long term corrosion is harder to assess.
- [26:46]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. Although the next King William, he's got a very good shot in the can already. That was it a funeral that they were at where Andrew was trying to torture him as they left the church. And it was perfectly clear that William did not want him anywhere near him. So I think that was pretty effective body language communication as well. Well, Charlie, thank you for your time.
- [27:06]
Charlie Falconer
Thank you for having me.
- [27:07]
Alistair Campbell
Lovely to talk to you and I
- [27:09]
Charlie Falconer
hope to see you soon.
- [27:10]
Alistair Campbell
See you very soon. Take care.
- [27:11]
Charlie Falconer
Okay, bye bye.
- [27:18]
Podcast Advertiser 1
Troy, the Odyssey, the Iliad, all of these great ancient epics depict a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of 3,000 years ago. And to understand the Bronze Age apocalypse that homer wrote about 400 years after it happened, subscribe to Empire World History, a fellow goal hanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial collapse in ancient history. To get a flavour of the series, here is a clip from our episode with none other than Stephen Fry.
- [27:46]
Stephen Fry
It is one of my favorite subjects, the story of the Greeks and the siege of Troy and Odysseus return home. Of course I say Greeks. Homer called them the Achaeans, the Danaans, the Argives. The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaeans, a warrior aristocracy essentially obsessed with honor and reputation that would give them an eternal glory. A kleos, as they call it. It's the kleos that's in the name of so many Greeks. You know, Cleopatra and all the Socrates, Heracles, who's Hercules, you know, Hera's glory. He was actually named Heracles because she hated him, because he was a love child of Zeus and she never liked Zeus's love childs. Her husband, her errant husband. And so as an attempt to placate her, Tiresias, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name as a baby. This was to Heracles, the glory of Heracles.
- [28:46]
Charlie Falconer
It didn't help much.
- [28:47]
Stephen Fry
It didn't help at all. Athena even put her on Hera's breast when Hera was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk. But she woke and saw it and tossed him away and her breast milk spread across the sky to form the Milky Way.
- [29:01]
Podcast Advertiser 2
I didn't know that story because Galaxy,
- [29:03]
Stephen Fry
of course, is from the Greek for milk, galactic, as in lactic. So the chocolate makers are right. Anyway, this is completely separate.
- [29:10]
Charlie Falconer
Lovely though.
- [29:11]
Podcast Advertiser 1
Keep going.
- [29:12]
Alistair Campbell
Don't stop.
- [29:13]
Podcast Advertiser 1
Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more on the Bronze Age apocalypse and how it shaped the the ancient Greek epics, just subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:26]
Anthony Scaramucci
Anthony Scaramucci here. As much as I love talking politics and let's be honest, it sometimes gets me in trouble, my other and probably safer passion is books. We just dropped our 200th episode on my podcast Open Book, another Goal hanger show. And to celebrate, we spoke with none other than Waterstones and and Barnes and Noble CEO James Dawn. Let's take a listen. It's a phenomenal piece of technology, James. Everything has changed. Our phones have changed, our computer, way we look at the TV. The book is a 500-year-old piece of technology. You think in 500 years it'll be with us?
- [30:03]
James Daunt
James I think so. And I think it's astonishing simply how extraordinarily durable it is and effective it is. And as you say, newspapers, we don't read them anymore. It's on your iPad, it's on your phone, music. The format changes all the time. Not with books. And I think when publishers also concentrate on the physical attributes of a book as well, they are lovely things and treasures forever.
- [30:25]
Anthony Scaramucci
There may be too many books being published right at this moment. You believe that and tell us why.
- [30:29]
James Daunt
Far, far too many books. And it's getting ever, ever worse. This is speaking as a bookseller who crafts a physical space. So I only have so many much space and there's more and more and lots of self publishing. Nothing wrong with writing a book and wanting to see it out in the world. But for myself, I have to curate all the time. And the bit that I regret is that people get upset with me for not carrying their book. Well, I just can't. I don't have the space for it. And that's really what I mean. The fact that they sell on Kindle or they sell on Nook or online is fine by me. I I want people reading, but I myself have to curate. And the reality is that I can't take the vast majority of books that are published.
- [31:07]
Anthony Scaramucci
I hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more from James dawn and others, subscribe to Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci. Wherever you get your podcasts.