515. Starmer’s Foreign Aid Betrayal, Islamophobia & Australia’s Far Right (Question Time)

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

The Rest Is Politics – Episode 515:
Starmer’s Foreign Aid Betrayal, Islamophobia & Australia’s Far Right (Question Time)
Date: March 26, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart

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Overview

This episode features Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart responding to listener questions about major political issues in the UK and abroad. Key topics include the Labour government's deep cuts to the international development budget, the UK's evolving relationship with the EU, the rise of the far right in Australia, Islamophobia in British politics, the legacy of long-term government projects like the English coastal path, and lively personal exchanges on books, clothing, and light political anecdotes. Throughout, the conversation maintains the podcast’s signature tone: candid, informed, occasionally passionate, yet rooted in mutual respect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. UK Foreign Aid Cuts: Starmer’s “Betrayal”

Starts at 00:24

• Listener Question: Why is the UK government cutting its international development budget from 0.5% to 0.3%?
• Rory Stewart:
  • "It's completely shocking … what Keir Starmer's government has done with international development spending is worse than anything that happened during austerity." (01:08)
  • The real on-the-ground spend is "down to about 0.24% … the lowest level since 1917."
  • Stewart criticizes Labour for breaking past promises and compares the UK's declining aid to cuts in US programs under Trump, highlighting a broader Western retreat from global engagement.
  • Quote: "We're now spending less as a percentage of GDP than Trump’s United States of America on international development." (03:15)
• Historical context: The UK’s 0.7% aid target, rooted in law and international agreements, is now honored by only four countries; other “middle powers” like Norway, Ireland, and South Korea are increasing theirs (07:49).
• Alastair Campbell:
  • Sees a damaging political calculation at work: "This is one of those choices that doesn't feel that tough because a lot of people in the country are thinking … these are faraway places in which we know nothing." (12:22)

Notable Segment

• Comparative statistics and policy history: 07:18–09:45
  • Stewart and Campbell review which countries are currently meeting or exceeding the UN 0.7% benchmark, citing Norway (1.02%), Ireland (0.57%), and growth in South Korean and Japanese aid.
  • They warn of soft power losses in Africa where Russia and China are advancing as UK aid retracts.

2. The Labour Manifesto and Public Outcry

06:29–12:48

• Campbell expresses frustration at the lack of vocal protest over Labour breaking a manifesto pledge.
• Both hosts highlight how aid spending remains, in global terms, a “tiny fraction” of national GDP with exponential value for recipients.
  • Quote: "Every pound we spend abroad, in the most extreme poor countries, goes 100 times further than it does at home." (09:15)
• Stewart questions Starmer’s commitment to internationalism, emphasizing the need for British soft power:
  • "If we're serious about a world after Trump … what we actually need is Britain leaning out into the world… not less." (11:31)

3. Brexit and the Rejoin Debate

12:48–16:34

• Listener asks whether calls to rejoin the EU are missing deeper domestic issues.
• Campbell senses a shift: "I do feel this debate is moving and I feel it could move quite quickly." (13:19)
• European leaders signal openness to the UK returning.
  • Quote: “We all know Brexit’s been a disaster for the UK and if you came back, we would like to have you.” (14:27)
• Discussion of Labour’s “step by step” strategy, economic losses (up to 8% of GDP), and stories of Brexit’s negative personal impact in the UK heartlands.
• Campbell argues that political fights ought to be about issues that truly matter.

4. Australia’s Far Right and Lessons for the Left

17:21–26:17

• Mari from Adelaide asks about the rise of the far right in South Australia's election.
• Campbell: Recaps Peter Malinowskas’ landslide for Labour, contrasted with One Nation (the Far Right) beating the traditional Liberals.
• Malinowskas’s victory speech exhibits respect for opponents and inclusion, even quoting an Australian poem on kindness to immigrants (20:16).
  • Quote (Malinowskas via Campbell, quoting “The Duty of Australians”):
    “’Tis the duty of Australians in the bush and in the town to forever praise their country, but to run no other down...”
• Rory Stewart:
  • "What we're discovering around the world, unfortunately, is nobody is immune [to the rise of populists]…" (25:06)
  • He credits Malinowskas' success to political competence, taking bold, clear policy positions (such as campaign finance reform and social media bans), and not letting culture war opponents set the agenda.
• The segment cautions against assuming political “exceptionalism” (e.g., Australia or Spain) will protect democracies from the populist right.

5. Islamophobia and the Weaponization of Religious Identity in Politics

27:42–36:55

• Question: Why have the Conservatives adopted Islamophobia as a strategy?
• Rory Stewart:
  • "Islamophobia is a very, very, very real thing… What seems difficult is acknowledging both [Islamophobia and antisemitism] are happening in spades." (27:59)
  • Critiques the “Judeo-Christian culture” narrative promoted by Farage and others as a veiled form of exclusion, targeting Muslims.
  • Expresses frustration at deliberate disinformation campaigns on social media that stoke division.
  • Quote: "This is not because they're big church goers, it's because they're white." (28:44)
• Campbell:
  • Argues that the right is weaponizing religion, as seen in the US and via media like GB News: "All these issues are being very, very successfully weaponized." (30:51)
• Conversation expands to global examples—Hungary’s Orban, Christian nationalism in the US—while emphasizing that all faiths and identities are at risk of politicization.
  • Quote (Stewart): “There's something particularly horrible about Christianity being used to stir hatred, when the whole narrative is supposed to be peace, forgiveness, love.” (35:09)

6. The Completion of England’s Coastal Path – Positive Governance

37:15–40:07

• Listener asks: How can governments maintain long term visionary projects?
• Tribute to cross-party achievements: John Major’s National Forest and (finally) the world’s longest coastal path, initiated under Gordon Brown.
• Light exchange about walking it—and the rewarding effect of sustained political will across governments.

7. Book Recommendations & Personal Asides

41:57–47:57

• Book recommendations on jihadism, radicalization, parents of extremists, the geopolitics of climate, and the AI revolution.
  • Alastair Campbell: “In the Womb of the Jihad” (Spanish/French), and Liam Byrne’s “Why the Populists are Winning and How We Defeat Them.”
  • Rory Stewart: Arthur Snell’s “Elemental” and Sebastian Mallaby’s “The Infinity Machine.”
  • Both hosts plug new podcast miniseries on related topics.
• Anecdotes about a Ukrainian football badge (symbolizing Russian destruction), football club naming conventions, and red tartan coats—a blend of political seriousness and personal charm.

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• Rory Stewart, on UK aid budgeting:
  “It's completely shocking. … What Keir Starmer's government has done with international development spending is worse than anything that happened during austerity, worse than anything that happened under Johnson or Truss.” (01:08)

• Alastair Campbell, on political apathy:
  “Normally there’s an absolute outcry when a government breaks a manifesto promise. There’s been next to no outcry on this.” (12:22)

• On aid multiplier effect:
  “Every pound we spend abroad … goes 100 times further than it does at home.” – Rory Stewart (09:15)

• On populism’s spread:
  “What we're discovering around the world, unfortunately, is nobody is immune … Australia was meant to have a system that defeated populism. Now it's got it.” – Rory Stewart (25:06)

• Malinowskas’ “Duty of Australians” poem, via Campbell:
  “’Tis the duty of Australians…to forever praise their country, but to run no other down … It is our duty to the stranger, landed maybe but one hour, to give all the information and assistance in our power…” (20:16)

• On weaponized religion:
  “This Judeo-Christian thing is interesting because…the attachment of ‘Judeo’ to Christian is very odd … Islam, Christianity, and Judaism—all being people of the book. … This weird thing of Judeo-Christian and lopping off the Islam bit is really weird.” – Rory Stewart (31:23)

• Campbell, on British soft power:
  “We underestimate the opportunities of our soft power potential because it is still enormous.” (12:01)

• On the long-term value of government projects:
  “John Major’s National Forest is now a real delight … That was waste ground and has been transformed into this beautiful forest, and now this coastal path…” – Rory Stewart (37:34)

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Segment Timestamps

• Foreign Aid Cuts / Starmer’s Policy: 00:24–12:48
• Brexit & EU Rejoin Debate: 12:48–16:34
• Australia’s Election & Far Right Rise: 17:21–26:17
• Islamophobia & “Judeo-Christian” Narrative: 27:42–36:55
• English Coastal Path, Long-term Projects: 37:15–40:07
• Books & Final Listener Q&As: 41:57–end

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Tone & Style

The conversation is frank, at times passionate, and often peppered with wit and self-deprecation (“I really do hate that phrase [It's not rocket science] … please desist from using it.” – Alastair Campbell, 39:03). Both hosts rely on data, recent events, and personal anecdotes, but never stray from clarity or respect, even in policy disagreement. The episode, as always, models “agreeable disagreement” and informed, global-minded debate.

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Summary for New Listeners

If you missed this episode, you’ll find a sharp, impassioned exploration of UK and global political challenges—from retreating on international responsibilities, to how democracies deal with populism, to the weaponization of religious identity, and the importance of long-term, cross-party public goods. Genuine, informed, and sometimes fierce, the episode is a strong primer in 21st-century political realities—with practical, personal, and even poetic moments throughout.

Transcript

[Alastair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics. To support the podcast, listen without the adverts and get early access to episodes and live show tickets, go to therestispolitics.com that's thererestispolitics.com. Welcome to the Rest is Politics. Question time with me, Alastair Campbell and

[Rory Stewart]

with me, Rory Stewart.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now, Rory, I think we may agree on this one. Lucy is a trip member from Warrington. Love, the Warrington Wolves. What did you make of the government's announcement last week that it is cutting the development budget from 0.5% to 0.3%? Surely, says Lucy, at a time of increasing war, worsening global security, we should not give up on tackling both the root causes and consequences of these conflicts.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, I think it's completely shocking. I don't think people have concentrated on this. So firstly, the Labour government, when the Tories decided to cut international development, attacked them repeatedly in the House of Commons. And Keir Starmer made these great value speeches about how the Tories need to understand that international development is national security and there's no trade off between the two.

[Alastair Campbell]

He said that when he did the podcast in opposition.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. And everyone was very cheered up when he said the podcast in opposition that he was going to hold to the 0.7% commitment. And they were all very much signed up. As soon as fiscal conditions allow, we'll come in. Then they came in and they said they were going to increase spending on various things, but in fact not on international development. And the fact is that what Keir Starmer's government has done with international development spending is worse than anything that happened during austerity, worse than anything that happened on international development under Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or anyone. International development. So austerity was a 25% cut in departments. This is almost a 70% cut in international development spending. From where I was as the International Development Section, 2019, I was spending about US$20 billion a year. We're now down in practice. If you take out the amount that they're now using that money to spend on refugees in Britain, so you take that out, we're down to about something like 0.24%. This is the lowest level of British spend on international development since 1917. We were spending more on international development during the oil crisis of 73, during the moment when we went to the IMF in the 1970s, we were spending more on international development. On Mrs. Thatcher, we were spending more on austerity. Keir Sama has taken us down to the lowest level in 56 years.

[Alastair Campbell]

So you're not happy?

[Rory Stewart]

I'm not extraordinary. I mean, it doesn't make moral sense for the Labour Party that cares about these things. I mean, you created the 0.7% commitment. You created Department of International under New Labor. It's one of the few things that the Tories got behind. David Cameron got behind it. Theresa May was under a lot of pressure after Brexit to cut it, but she decided, actually, I think rightly, that when Britain left the European Union, the last thing it could do, it start retreating from the world by cutting international development. So she kept that commitment forward. Add to that, we're now in a world in which Trump has cut international development spending. Apart from the moral and political stuff, it's the context completely changed world. So we are in the world of the second Trump administration. We're in the world of Elon Musk and Doge. We're in the world in which Musk comes in and destroys. USAID cuts, all that spending, destroys all the support for pepfar, AIDS programs, malaria, tb, all of that in crisis. The US has stripped all its funding from democracy as well key UN agencies, and yet we are now spending less as a percentage of our GDP than Trump's United States of America on international development.

[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Alastair Campbell]

The other thing to point out this is a really kind of nerdy point, but I'll make it anyway. It is British law that we spend 0.7% of GDP on overseas aid. So Parliament has to have a vote on this. Surely there has to be a new law. That law has to be changed. I mean, I find it very depressing. I think we said at the time that okay, Ukraine happens and the costs are going to be enormous. That to me was the point at which Labour could have and would have got away with putting up tax instead of which they wanted to play this overseas aid versus defence argument, which is what they're doing now. And I actually, I read yesterday the Hansard on Yvette Cooper's statement on it. Oh my God, she was given a really, really rough time. Very, very few people.

[Rory Stewart]

Weirdly across the house.

[Alastair Campbell]

Across the house.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, you had Bambos, Charolumbus, whose Labour. Obviously you had Greens, Lib Dems, but you also had a lot of Conservatives, Harriet Baldwin also asking these questions about when we returned 0.7%.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, I think it's bad. And also your point about America is absolutely right. And there are some countries and I know it's easier for Norway because unlike us, they didn't spaff the oil money. They created the sovereign wealth fund. And they're extraordinarily successful, wealthy country, but they're currently at 1.02% of gross national,

[Rory Stewart]

which is nearly four times as much as GDP.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. Ireland, 4.5% increase last year, currently at 0.57%. South Korea, it went up.

[Rory Stewart]

South Korea went up 24%.

[Alastair Campbell]

From a low base, from a very, very low.

[Rory Stewart]

Japan, Australia. So these are countries which, you know, you talk about the middle powers and creating a new alliance. So those countries who are on the front lines, South Korea, Japan, they really are places that matter. Norway, worrying about the Arctic, they're all deciding to increase international development because as Keir Starmer told us when he was criticizing Notorious for doing it, this actually helps our defense and security. And that if you really want to think either about how do you stop the root causes, the kind of things that drive conflict, of course, it's not the answer to everything, but providing a bit of support in a humanitarian crisis, providing better support to governments, providing support to refugees reduces conflict, which doesn't get to us. But also, if you're thinking about soft power, I mean, the spending in Africa is now a fraction of what it was. So even when I was the Africa Minister Back in 2016, I think our bilateral and multilateral aid to Africa was probably running at about 6, $7 billion, and it's probably now less than a quarter of that.

[Alastair Campbell]

And meanwhile, across Africa, Russia is moving in with hard power and China's moving in with soft power. China's just done this amazing deal on visa travel for lots of the African countries.

[Rory Stewart]

So add to that that we are really struggling to think about values and we're looking for a way to describe, let's say you're Canada, the uk, Europe, why there should be your Alexander Stubb Four Corners. Right? We can see what China represents, we can see what Russia represents, we can see what Trump's America represents. What is Europe's defining feature going to be? It's presumably not going to be we are the richest, most low tax, entrepreneurial, tech savvy country in the world. That's gone. We're not going to be, we are the command and control authoritarian communist state. Nor are we are the nuclear armed disruptor of the European order. No, we're supposed to be liberal democracy values. And part of that value has got to be, look, internationalism. It can't be very difficult, this argument. So the argument isn't we're going to give all our money to other people's countries, but every pound we spend abroad, in the most extreme poor countries goes 100 times further than it does at home. I mean, in very real terms, £1,000 for a family in extreme poverty on the Kenya border is 100 times more valuable than it would be for you OR I. And 0.7% is not a lot. That's obviously 99.3% is still spent in the U.K. we're just asking for a tiny fraction to reflect the fact that in some ways people are suffering in Britain, but compared to what the conditions you're living in in extreme poverty in Africa.

[Alastair Campbell]

And also, as well as being a British law, 0.7% is also the United nations target for all countries. And right now, only four are meeting it. That's Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden and Denmark. And Sweden are actually, are actually cutting. And if you go, you look at all the overseas aid budgets have been cut. So between them, us, uk, France, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands, Finland, Belgium, Austria, New Zealand, Canada, they accounted for nearly 3/4 of the total global overseas development budget in 2024. Okay, so when you've taken out some of the really big spenders, particularly US and, and the Americans, that's a catastrophic, catastrophic impact upon a lot of people, a lot of countries.

[Rory Stewart]

Why can't Keir Sama see that? If we're serious about a world after Trump, and we're going to have our own values and our own international system and our new alliances, we need British diplomats, we need development almost more, actually, than we need the hard power. If we're going to renegotiate a new relationship with the European Union, think about new institutional structures, think about China. What we actually need is Britain leaning out into the world being a bit more global, Britain, not less. So why are we retreating?

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, we'll have to get him on the podcast and ask him, won't we? But I agree, I do think that we underestimate the extent, well, we underestimate the opportunities of our soft power potential because it is still enormous. But I think this sends out a pretty bad message about how we think about things. And I get the politics of pitting against defense. The other thing that annoys me is that normally there's an absolute outcry when a government breaks a manifesto promise. There's been next to no outcry over this. It's in the manifesto. We're going to stick to 0.7%, and now we're not. So it's all very well to say you need to make tough choices, but this feels like one of those choices that doesn't feel that tough because a lot of people in the country are thinking, well, these are far away places in which we know nothing. And that's what depresses me. Anyway, you mentioned the European Union in there, Rory.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, absolutely, Alistair. And I've got a question for you.

[Alastair Campbell]

Okay.

[Rory Stewart]

Dale Fletcher, Warwickshire. Are current calls for the UK to rejoin the eu misdiagnosing the problem? Leaving the EU was supposed to remove the long standing habit in UK politics of attributing domestic failings to Brussels. What we've seen since is the exposure of underlying weaknesses in our own governance, productivity and policy execution leading to ever increasing economic difficulty. Is there a risk that the rejoin debate becomes less about fixing those issues and more about restoring an external point of blame?

[Alastair Campbell]

Only the answer to that is only if we embrace this debate with the lack of confidence that I'm afraid was part of the reason why we left in the first place. So it needn't be like that. It needn't be like that. I do feel, I mean, this is part you've got to be careful about, you know, your own desires getting in the way of rational assessment. I do feel this debate is moving and I feel it could move quite quickly. So Sadiq Khan does an interview in Italian newspaper and basically says Labour should have it in the manifesto that we're going back in.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, why in an Italian newspaper is a weird way to reveal your big policy?

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, probably because he was asked, right, probably. And he was Larry Publica. And I don't know, maybe not a bad thing, but anyway, I thought was interesting was the lack of screaming hab dabs about it. And also I sense that Mr. Farage, he didn't really go for it either. And I'll tell you another thing we know. So we've done recently, we've interviewed Pedro Sanchez, the Prime Minister of Spain, Alexander Stubb, the President of Finland. Do you think it was interesting how they both were very, very clear in stating as a fact, not sort of rubbing our nose and just saying, look, you know, we all know Brexit's been a disaster for the uk and if you came back, we would like to have you.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely.

[Alastair Campbell]

And the French Foreign Minister said the same this week.

[Rory Stewart]

He did, he did. And you sent that to me because I've always been a bit worried that we might get raked over the coals. And a year ago people were still talking that time, but maybe they become more friendly. Chris Bryant, interesting. I was just quoting him yesterday on the House Lords. But he said, and I think this is a message to the whole government, he says the UK's relationship with the EU is not a series of policy decisions, but instead one great big decision. And I think there's a lot to be said about in general, about the way the government does stuff a little bit more binary. This is the big vision instead of lots of tiny little decisions.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, as you know, I really like Nick Thomas Simmons, who's the minister in charge of this, and he is following the brief. He is basically improving step by step here, there's and everywhere. But there's definitely got to come a point where we do make that big step, because it is a big step. There's no doubt about that. And there are massive political risks attached to it. But my view in politics and particular and political strategy is always best to fight about things that really, really matter. And Rachel Reeves again was interesting last week. So she did the Maze lecture and she said, you know, red line, not joining the single market customers, but within it. She basically, she said she's put the estimate of the loss to our economy now at 8%. I've been merrily quoting 5 to 6% for some time. We now have the chance for these checkers saying it's 8%. So I do feel this is moving. Interestingly, at the Fulham Burnley game on Saturday, Burnley fans are always projected as, you know, being all these sort of, you know, Brexiteers and da, da, da. Guy came up to me and just. He was getting married to an Italian.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

And he said, you know, I'm finally going to get sorted. He was an absolute blank Astrian.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

But he was basically saying Brexit has ruined his life up to now, run his business, his personal life, etc. So he's now going to get married to an Italian, get a passport.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think international development could have also been a big fight? Quite an unusual fight that you wouldn't necessarily be expecting the Labour Party to have, but actually could be quite inspiring for people. Could some or not have got out there and said, Listen, 100%, this is the move we're on. We've inherited a difficult situation, but we're getting back towards 0.7.

[Alastair Campbell]

And let me say, when we were in opposition, it was a big part of our inspiring agenda. It was a big progressive thing. And, you know, Tony Blair used to make speeches. And you know, when you're writing a speech, I always used to sort of, as we were planning the speech, I would always put a little red tick against what I knew was going to be a clap line in a speech. International development always. So it was inspiring. People did want to hear things like that. So look, I think we're on the move on Brexit. I could be wrong, but I really do. I think a lot of people I did that in, I did the Troll podcast the other day with Marina Purkis and Gemma Forte. They've got full time jobs, they've got families and what have you. They were quotes radicalized by Brexit and they are, you know, adamant they're going to stay involved and stay engaged until this thing gets undone.

[Rory Stewart]

Question for you. One of your favorite places in the world, South Australia.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yep.

[Rory Stewart]

Mari, who's actually a trip member from Adelaide. We have a lot of Australian listeners. I've got a lot of stuff about this election. Does the election result here in South Australia over the weekend show that liberals and centrists aren't doing enough to counter the rise of the far right? Or are there any lessons for leftist center parties worldwide in the second term? Landslide win of Peter Malinowskas. Could you begin please, for listeners who are not in South Australia by just reminding people what happened in that election?

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, Peter Malinowskas is a guy that I met in Adelaide at their book festival a couple of years ago. And you and I did an event, you were online and I was in the, in this amazing hall in Adelaide and Peter Malinowskis introduced us and that's how I got to know him. And I found him incredibly impressive from

[Rory Stewart]

the off and we had lunch together

[Alastair Campbell]

in London and we had lunch together when he came over here. We've had him on the podcast and he has just pulled off a remarkable win. The answer to the question is it's both of those things because the two big outcomes of this election, one is Malinowskis has got a huge landslide win. But the second thing that has happened is that the One Nation Party, which is the kind of the UK reform with a bit of Rupert Lowe tucked in with it, they have beaten the Liberal Party, which is their, as it were, their Conservative Party. So their traditional right wing party has been beaten.

[Rory Stewart]

That's the first time for decades. So this is extraordinary. This is like a shift from a traditional two party system. And I think the two main parties, Labour and Liberals, just got into the sort of high 50% of the vote when as in the UK you go back in time, they would have been much more substantial two party systems. And Pauline Hanson, when you and I were in Australia, just going to come to you on your conversation with Peter, but people were congratulating themselves on the fact that Pauline Hanson was a Bit useless and a bit of a joke. And, you know, we were often saying on this podcast as recently as 12 months ago, isn't it great that compulsory voting and preferential voting means that they don't have to deal with Nigel Farage? And now they are dealing with.

[Alastair Campbell]

And they do. And that's kind of what he said. And it was a very interesting, his acceptance speech was really interesting. He thanked family and friends and campaigners and all that. And then he congratulated, he thanked his opponents for being so gracious in defeat. And then he said that he'd had this phone call from the One nation candidate. And the audience, all Labour Party members and supporters, started to boo at the mention of the guy's name. And Malinowski says, no, no, no, no. He said this was an impressive campaign that they fought and we should da, da, da. And so I think his positioning with it is going to be we have to show respect to their views.

[Rory Stewart]

But, but, but, but, but respectful views. But he's not endorsing that. He's not going down the stomach. I'm going to lean into it. In fact, he's. You, you shared a poem that he read.

[Alastair Campbell]

Shall I read you the poem?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, give us the poem. Because it gives you a sense of, that he's standing up for his life. He's a bit more Sanchez like on the subject.

[Alastair Campbell]

He totally. So he said he had two reflections, and the first was don't be satisfied at winning, only be satisfied by what we do with the victory. So that's the first thing. Don't gloat. And then he then said that when he was in the, when he was voting himself, he was standing alongside this guy who came from Vietnam. He was a boat person from Vietnam. And the guy just spoke to him and they had a chat and he, and he was describing this guy's sense of patriotism to Australia, being a Vietnamese boat person. And then he, then he quoted this poem by a guy called Henry Lawson, who's a famous Australian poet. His face is actually on their, their $10 notes. And the poem is called the Duty of Australians. I won't read all of it. I'll read the bit that Peter Malalauskas read out. Tis the duty of Australians in the bush and in the town to forever praise their country, but to run no other down. When a man or nation visits in the heyday of its pride. Tis the duty of Australians to be kind but dignified. It is our duty to the stranger landed maybe but one hour to give all the information and assistance in Our power to give audience to the new chum and to let the old chums wait, lest his memory be embittered by his first days in the state. Tis our duty when he's foreign and he's English very young, to find out and take him somewhere where we'll hear his native tongue, to give him our last spare moment and our pleasure to defer. He'll be father of Australians, as our foreign father grandfathers were. How cool is that? And that he's a Lithuanian. I mean, Malinowskas is second gen. You know, his grandparents went there, they were from Lithuania and Hungary. So I thought you're right. He was basically saying we stand up for all Australians, we stand up for immigration, we look after everybody, we welcome them. But I think the point he was making is don't fall into the trap of saying just because they've suddenly voted for a very right wing party as opposed to right wing party, that they're somehow all sort of beyond the pale.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, for what it's worth, the kind of conventional wisdom seems to be that his strengths were competence, kind of, sort of. He's just seemed competent. Some winnable reform fights, which we talked about a lot, him banning social media, campaign finance reform.

[Alastair Campbell]

But they were big things.

[Rory Stewart]

Really big things. Big things, really big, big, risky, not necessarily popular. I mean, he actually explained on the podcast that most of his advice were writing not to do them and finally not letting the opponents pick the terrain on the culture wars. He sort of, he's got a clear position but he's sort of, kind of slightly diffused it. It's really weird though. Let's just for a second. I mean, huge congratulations to Malnoscas. One of the problems though maybe, and this maybe relates to some of these questions we got Marie's from Adelaide, that it's difficult taking lessons across because he may be just a pretty exceptional politician. And that saying to me or Keir Starmer, you need to be more like Peter Malinoskas may not really work. Or maybe I'm undermining a lot of your entire life, which is going around telling people how to be more like the new Labour government, but. But presumably people might say to you, it's actually quite difficult because we don't actually have Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. It's no good just saying to some random politician, you need to be more like that.

[Alastair Campbell]

Look, you can't say to somebody, be something that you're not. I mean, Malinowski is a bit like Sanchez. He's very tall and very handsome. Yeah, he's a good looking bloke. But I think you're saying something about

[Rory Stewart]

me and Keir Sama on that.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think you'd have to grow a bit to be like Peter Malaskas, I think. But I'll tell you the other thing is that what you describe there is he takes bold, clear positions and he then fights for them and he's seen to fight for them and they're positions

[Rory Stewart]

that Starmer could have taken. I'm afraid there's no reason why Starmer couldn't have run something on social media.

[Alastair Campbell]

Absolutely. Which they're now doing. Yeah, but we always say whenever he does it.

[Rory Stewart]

But can we see it? I mean, with Manoscus, it defined him. He made it the big issue. He let us see the stakes. We sensed Google moving against him, Twitter

[Alastair Campbell]

moving against him, and then Albanese made it federal. Yeah, that's leadership. I agree. But I think that where the Marie's question is right, though, and this is what Peter Malaska said when we, you know, exchanging text over the weekend is that, you know, this is an amazing win. And let's just be. Let's just look at it. He's got, you know, the Liberal Party, the traditional opposition got four seats. Pauline Hanson's One Nation got one seat. The Greens got zero seats on 10% of the vote. So they're going to have to work out how do you have an opposition when he's got such a big majority within the South Australian Parliament? I think there's, there's something in the. It's the boldness and it's the clarity of it. It's the relentlessness of communication as well,

[Rory Stewart]

without being an A hole. I mean.

[Alastair Campbell]

Oh, he's not an A hole.

[Rory Stewart]

I got some nice texts from friends of mine who are part of the old Liberal Party, the sort of Tory party in Australia. And I'm quite struck that, yeah, they grumble, but they're not really chippy about piednamal Oscars. I mean, they occasionally suggest he's populist, but that's pretty close to suggesting he's popular. But boy, oh boy, the one nation thing, we shouldn't underestimate that. I mean, just to move off the good news onto the bad news, the bad news is that in 26 of these contests, it was a Labour one nation contest and only 12 was it against the Liberals and one nation. Pauline Hanson, which was a joke, is not a joke anymore. I mean, it's a little bit reform. And what we're discovering around the world, unfortunately, is nobody is immune. There was An Iberian exception. Spain and Portugal weren't supposed to have populist parties. Now they have them. Australia was meant to have a system that defeated populism. Now it's got it. So something's happening and Malinovsk is a great clue on how you might beat them. But they're a real reality. And these and the right parties, this is true in Britain and it's true of the Republican party in spades, are in such trouble because they cannot hold together people like me who are sort of, I suppose, centrist, moderate, urban, old fashioned conservatives and the kind of culture war, anti immigration populists. They're having their whole coalition torn in two.

[Alastair Campbell]

Very interesting though how in the mayor elections in France over the weekend, the far right have not done nearly as well as they thought they were going to.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, that's, that's encouraging. Although the AFD's up 10%, the FD

[Alastair Campbell]

is doing horribly well at the moment. But again, there was an election in one of the lender last week and it was the CDU who took it from the SDP. And then the AfD did rise, but they didn't, they didn't take it. But I'll tell you the other thing that's interesting. This is something else that I talked about with Malaskas. We often say, we Brits, that we're always in terms of political campaign techniques and so forth, we're always a bit behind the Americans. I hope we stay behind the Americans right now. But that's been historically, you know, if something happens in America, then we do it. And the Australians then tend to be a few years behind us.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Of course, Pauline Hanson's talents haven't changed.

[Rory Stewart]

No.

[Alastair Campbell]

Still pretty ghastly politics and not a great politician. But the debate has changed and the traditional right wing party has kind of looks like it's imploding a bit. It's not nationwide, but there it was a really, really bad defeat. But Anyway, well done, Mr. Malinowskis. He's a really interesting guy and I'm very, very pleased that he, that he walked it.

[Rory Stewart]

Brilliant. Let's take a break.

[Alastair Campbell]

Take a break.

[Rory Stewart]

And when we come back after the break, we're going to be talking about Islamophobia in Britain. We're going to be talking about a new King Charles foot path. You have a lighter question for us and we're also going to share some book recommendations.

[Alastair Campbell]

Excellent.

[Rory Stewart]

Welcome back to the Restless Politics Question

[Alastair Campbell]

Time with me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell. Okay, here's one for you, Rory. It's about Your old party. Ayaan, why do you think the Tories have adopted reform strategy of Islamophobia as a popular policy?

[Rory Stewart]

I think Islamophobia is a very, very, very, very real thing. I also think anti Semitism's a real thing. What seems to be difficult is acknowledging that both those things are happening in spades. There's this very weird thing going on at the moment called the Judeo Christian culture, which you're now hearing Farage talking about a great deal. It's really weird. I mean, we now have Robert Jenrick, his Mini Me, talking about Psalm Sunday. Psalm Sunday? Yeah. So what's going on with Psalm Sunday means Palm Sunday. Yeah, yeah. What do you notice?

[Alastair Campbell]

Even I know that.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, exactly. What you notice is that even you, as an atheist, know that these guys were not talking about Christianity. Tommy Robinson's march, you know, was a lot about Judeo Christian culture. This is not because they're big church

[Alastair Campbell]

growers, because they're white.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And it's extraordinary, the stuff you see on social media. Unbelievable. The repeated stuff that you see, and I get it in my feeds often, is stories saying the head of education in Britain, who's a Muslim, has decreed that. And then you have to search and find out that whoever they're referring to is not the head of education in Britain. And he hasn't decreed that. Right. By which time it's been shared with 10,000 people, 100,000 people. 1 this morning saying that one of the independent MPs saying that they want Muslims to take over the whole of Birmingham, that Mohammed is the most popular. And this. And now the most recent thing is Nick Timothy complaining about a prayers in Trafalgar Square.

[Alastair Campbell]

It's Theresa May's former advisor, who's now an mp.

[Rory Stewart]

And it's heartbreaking because actually that was Muslims welcoming people.

[Alastair Campbell]

So what was it? This is an event in Trafalgar Square.

[Rory Stewart]

It's been going on for years in different places. And the Muslim community, like the Christian community and the Jewish community and the Sikh community and the Hindu community go out of their way to welcome people. It's one of the lovely things that Jewish communities do. They invite Muslims and Christians to come to synagogues, and Muslims are increasingly inviting other people to come and pray with them to show that actually people who have a faith in God have far more in common than divides them, to make it slightly less threatening.

[Alastair Campbell]

So why does Nick Timothy not like it?

[Rory Stewart]

He says it's an act of domination.

[Alastair Campbell]

Who's dominating whom?

[Rory Stewart]

The idea is that Muslims are dominating everybody. Else. But there's something so sad about being unable. Why can't we get to a stage of accepting in the way that we've made progress on so many other things in the world, Right. Kind of views that we used to have about women or about, I don't know, people who are gay. One of the stories we tell ourselves is that as people have more gay friends, they're less homophobic. That the kind of prejudices people had 50 years ago was going to know any gay people and now know gay people, they're less worried about it. Why are we not getting there with Muslims? Because anybody who makes friends with a Muslim immediately sees all the human qualities, the generosity, the love, the dignity, the friendliness, and all scary people.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I think the answer is that all of these issues are being very, very successfully weaponized. So the front page of the Financial Times review at the weekend was a whole huge piece about the way that the right here are trying to engender the same sort of politicization of religion as you've had in the United States. GB News, the owner of GB news, who's spaffing 100 million quid, whatever, is on their losses to try and sort of propagandize for the Right. A lot of it is about this Judeo Christian thing.

[Rory Stewart]

This Judeo Christian thing is interesting because not to make too fine a point on it, the attachment of Judeo to Christian is very odd. Right. Actually, a more sensible way to talk about it is Islam, Christianity and Judaism all being people of the book, they're actually broadly, in many ways, Islam has more in common with Judaism than it does with Christianity. But broadly speaking, there are three religions that are very, very close. One God, similar traditions. Islam actually venerates Jesus, venerates Moses. I mean, so this weird thing of Judeo Christian and lopping off the Islam bit is really weird. I can see the logic for Christianity, I can see the logic for Judaism, Islam and Christianity, but Judeo Christian.

[Alastair Campbell]

So you're a Christian? Yes, I'm an atheist, yes. And I'm probably more driven by politics than faith.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Okay. So I look at Robert Jenrick.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now, as it happens, I'm preconditioned to think the guy's a complete bullshitter, because I've seen a lot of evidence he's a complete bullshitter and utterly opportunistic. So when he says the importance of Psalm Sunday, right, which is actually an evil eye low, it's Palm Sunday. And then when I see.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you remember why it's called Palm Sunday?

[Alastair Campbell]

It's to do with something rather palm oil. No, it's not. I don't know. I haven't got a clue. Anyway, you'll tell me. But then I see Farage, and it's inserting itself more and more into his communications. We've got the election coming up in Hungary quite soon. Okay. Orban, he's full of this religious stuff.

[Rory Stewart]

And it's now being praised by Netanyahu, who's just given. And Trump.

[Alastair Campbell]

Both people praised by Netanyahu. Netanyahu went to Hungary to endorse him in the campaign. JD Vance is about to. We talk about not interfering in other people's elections. JD Vance is about to go. And a lot of advances, a lot of his religion.

[Rory Stewart]

It's a lot of eccentric narrative there, too, isn't it? Because it's a sort of Christian narrative, which is also based on idea that the Hungarians are Magyar nomads who came out of Central Asia. The whole thing's very confusing.

[Alastair Campbell]

Listen, but this is. You say, how does it happen? What happens is you take any story you want and you can politicize it. So. And I've always felt maybe it's because my mother was a, you know, a believer and my sister's a believer, and. And I see people who have their faith, and they think it's all about doing good.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

Right. Respecting other people and belief in something above you that's better than you and. But you basically try to do good.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And also accepting that you're pretty fragile and flawed and the world's a bit screwed up and that this is a way of talking and forgiving and thinking about the way we're all a bit screwed up.

[Alastair Campbell]

And I don't see any of that in Trump, in Vance, in Hyksoth. Hickseyth actually reads from the Bible at his press conferences, you know, while he's busy showing these videos of sort of, you know, 10 pin bowlings done up as American flags taking out jihadists.

[Rory Stewart]

So Joe Rogan, who is not usually the person who presents podcasts, had an extraordinary moment of revelation where he was following up one of these American colonels who gave a speech saying how happy he was about this Iran war. Because what the Book of Revelations tells us is that Donald Trump is going to unleash Armageddon on the world, and this is going to lead to the second coming. Yeah. And Joe Rogan was like, whoa. And the guy on the podcast with him was like, okay, I get it. It's not just that there are mad Muslims out there with crazy fundamentalist views who are trying to bring the world to an end. There are mad Christians out there. Add to that, there are mad atheists out there. Adolf Hitler famously was an atheist. There are mad Buddhists out there. I mean, one of the sad things in Myanmar is that's one of the most. You believe it, right? One of the most peaceful imaginable religions in the world managed to generate its own violent, genocidal nationalists. So, look, all different things can be used like this, but there's something particularly horrible, particularly horrible about Christianity, which, where the whole narrative is supposed to be peace, forgiveness, love. And the Pope does keep trying to point this out, to be fair to him. And actually, it was a Christian bishop who came out and praised what the Muslims were doing in Trafalgar Square and try to stand up for them. I mean, so I, I, it's not the Church. The Church is not responsible for this, really.

[Alastair Campbell]

But just on this thing about the, the politicization of religious religion in the United States, and Trump doesn't do that much. He did it in his first term. Do you remember? He went carrying his Bible to that thing and, but he doesn't sort of push it down your throat like Vance doesn't like Hexith does. I really think we're getting very close to the point where your friend the king should follow the Pope and saying, I'm not going to do it in the 50th anniversary stuff. I'm going to spend the day with the poor people. What do you think of that, Rory?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I think he's in a very difficult situation. I think he's a very difficult situation. You talked about this. Constitutionally, he is there in many ways to support this government. And I think it's a call that Kiya Sam has got to make. What would you do if you were Kiya Sama? What would you be advising the King to do?

[Alastair Campbell]

I really do think we're very close to it. But just go through the last few days. You had that horrible thing we talked about on the main podcast about Robert Mueller. I'm glad he's dead. Very Christian. You had him doing that endorsement for Orban. You've had him posting a clip from a satirical program taking the piss out of Keir Starmer for being weak in the face of Donald Trump.

[Rory Stewart]

But is Starmer's calculation not in a sense that the only thing he's probably thinking containment? Well, he isn't. The only thing we know that Trump actually quite liked about the United Kingdom is the Royal Family, the one he

[Alastair Campbell]

didn't do us any good. The first time we had he had the state visit. That nonsense of being driven around. Driven around Windsor park with low crowds there.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

And so you treat him like a man, baby, you know, you could argue we got a few months decent treatment.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Since when? Barely a day goes by that he doesn't insult Keir Starmer.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I'm going to do tilt because I think the King's in a difficult position there. But there's something that actually she's got a lot of credit for recently and.

[Alastair Campbell]

Oh, the coastal pass.

[Rory Stewart]

That's it.

[Alastair Campbell]

I love the coastal pass.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, good. Okay. Well maybe we should walk a part of it sometimes, not all of it.

[Alastair Campbell]

It's 2,000 miles.

[Rory Stewart]

We could do it in sections. So Osama, who's a trip plus member from Denham. There's a lot of doom and gloom in the UK right now. Can we celebrate some of our recent achievements such as the completion of the world's longest coastal path?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

This project started under Gordon Brown, took 18 years to compete, whereas the northern part of HS2 was suddenly mothball by Rishi Sunak without parliamentary approval. Bloody Osama's being a bit. Why do you stick that in? How can government and citizens monitor and protect long term projects that transition between governments and generations? Well, I want to pay tribute given that he's being nice about Gordon Brown to John Major, whose national forest is now a real delight. I don't know whether you've seen it. I mean obviously he stepped down in 97. It's incredible. It went into basically an area of damage.

[Alastair Campbell]

Stepped down.

[Rory Stewart]

Damage was crushed by you in an election.

[Alastair Campbell]

It was absolutely obliterated.

[Rory Stewart]

He was malinowskist. No, it's amazing. Right. So that was waste ground and has been transformed. This beautiful forest and now this coastal path. You can also now walk along the north bank of the Thames. So maybe if you're not prepared to do the full 2,000 miles from the north bank of the Thames is beautiful.

[Alastair Campbell]

I love the idea of the coastal path.

[Rory Stewart]

Sadiq Khan, your mate, the south bank of the Thames. It's still a bit annoying. I often try to walk that. There are many bits where you are pushed away from the river. You get stuck by stuff you can't go. Particularly getting from Greenwich through. That's not rocket science. A really determined name. Okay.

[Alastair Campbell]

I absolutely hate that.

[Rory Stewart]

Really?

[Alastair Campbell]

It's a terrible cliche. It's not rocket science. What does it mean?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, what it means is that if I were mayor of London, I would promise to resign in a Year. Unless I'd sorted out the southern path along the line.

[Alastair Campbell]

Did you say it's not rocket science when you made the prison business pledge?

[Rory Stewart]

No, I didn't say.

[Alastair Campbell]

Because I. I really do hate that phrase. Please desist from you.

[Rory Stewart]

I'll stop that. Okay. I'll stop that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'm very surprised that you're using such a profound and horrible creature.

[Rory Stewart]

Actually, I had a friend who. Who managed to use that phrase when people were actually discussing space and somebody was able to say, actually, it is

[Alastair Campbell]

Fiona and I went this morning. We had a boarding off. Went to see the Turner Constable exhibition at the Tate Modern.

[Rory Stewart]

Good bunny.

[Alastair Campbell]

So I walked here. Okay. And I noticed just before you get to the House of Lords, there's like a beach.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. It's lovely, but low tide.

[Alastair Campbell]

What's happening there?

[Rory Stewart]

It is always a beach at low tide.

[Alastair Campbell]

Can you go out there and swim?

[Rory Stewart]

You can't get down off the wall

[Alastair Campbell]

because you wouldn't swim in the water.

[Rory Stewart]

Going down the beach is really fun. If you go to Uncle Gravel, there's amazing things you can find. 16th century pipes and all this kind of stuff.

[Alastair Campbell]

Blimey.

[Rory Stewart]

I also once went canoeing with Mr. McDonald, the SMP MP. We went. We canoed straight past the House of Lords terrace. Yeah, that was a fun moment.

[Alastair Campbell]

Were they lobbing abuse at you? Were you lobbing abuse at you?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, back and forth. And my canoe partner, loving abuse at me.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think the coastal party's great. I think that.

[Rory Stewart]

And that's a great thing for the King to be involved in. It was great. I mean, I think the King's been stuff on the environment. His Amazon documentary, which I keep talking up on Harmony. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's great that he's got involved in that and got behind that.

[Alastair Campbell]

Do you think you'll join in the New World's campaign to get all our readers to watch an hour of GB news?

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, tell us about that campaign. I. I don't know. I don't think His Majesty's going to. He might in the New World campaign to watch our gb.

[Alastair Campbell]

I think he likes GB news. Anyway, what we. We had.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us about it.

[Alastair Campbell]

Fair play.

[Rory Stewart]

It's a weird segue. That's like when you tell me off and I go on on Sky News. Not mentioning the podcast.

[Alastair Campbell]

I'm just betting you do that. Last week we talked about the New World and then Ed Davey. Thank you very much. Ed Davey raised it in the Commons. I didn't like Keir Starmer's response I don't think he was listening much because he basically said, I'm a great believer in freedom of speech and Ofcom needs to sort itself out. In other words, Ofcom should be in charge of sorting itself out when the point we're making is Ofcom is totally unfit for purpose and has been useless at stopping GB News from becoming Farage tv. So their line to us, I said to you last week, was that, well, we can only act if we get complaints. So we're asking our listeners and our readers and anybody that we meet, we're saying, just spend one hour and send

[Rory Stewart]

in your honest views.

[Alastair Campbell]

Sending your honest view. Have the Ofcom guide about impartiality and fairness and balance and accuracy. And then if you think it's been breached, write to Ofcom. Then they'll have to investigate your complaint.

[Rory Stewart]

It's a lovely idea.

[Alastair Campbell]

So I think if the King and Camilla would like to do that, that'd be great.

[Rory Stewart]

That's a lovely idea. You just reminded me, actually, I've completely failed to praise, and this is with huge apologies, because I'm so bad at these segues. My friend Simon Collins, former ambassador to Riyadh, who was very, very helpful in helping me understand what's happening in the Middle east right now. Final question. That was a really bad segue.

[Alastair Campbell]

He's so bad at plugins.

[Rory Stewart]

So bad. Yeah. Final question from Alessandro. Could you include some book recommendations in your newsletter?

[Alastair Campbell]

Oh, yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

Not only about Iran. Have you read anything good recently in any language?

[Alastair Campbell]

Do you know when we were in Spain?

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Alastair Campbell]

Do you remember Sanchez's press secretary? Communications director. And she was a journalist like me. Before I became a communications director, she was a journalist and she'd written a book in Spanish.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Which translates as in the womb of the jihad.

[Rory Stewart]

Very good.

[Alastair Campbell]

Okay. And I said, I can't speak Spanish.

[Rory Stewart]

And she said, she can read Spanish, can't you?

[Alastair Campbell]

I could probably read, but then she said. Or she signed it, and then she said, it's been translated into French. But I honestly think, you know, I'm always, always asking publishers to pick up German books, one of which has just been done.

[Rory Stewart]

By the way, this is Alexandre Gil.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, this is. Because what you get is you were saying this about, you know, the way that we think about people. So if you think. If I think of somebody who's a suicide bomber, say he went from Britain or France or Belgium, they're the three big countries. She only talks to Belgians and French people. Families of jihadis. Somebody goes, and he's a suicide bomber. What Are your thoughts about what their family might be like?

[Rory Stewart]

I think it's heartbreaking. I mean, I think it's. Firstly, it's somebody who's taken their own life. Secondly, it's somebody who's got involved in a violent, criminal, horrible act of murdering other people. I'd imagine it's like talking to the parents of people who I saw in prison who'd committed horrible crimes, which is the terrible kind of tear in your heart of the horror that your son has inflicted on the world and asking yourself what you did to create the situation in which that happens.

[Alastair Campbell]

What often happens is that somebody gets involved in that and then the way they're then treated by the public, by the media is like somehow this is down to you because you're their family, you're their parents. Yeah. And I mean, I've not finished the book yet, but I'm reading one at the moment where actually the parents are Catholics and he was raised as a Catholic and he gets radicalized and off he goes, aged 18. And it's just incredibly moving to get this. And she's done an amazing job. She spent a lot of time with these people, getting their whole life story.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean, it must be awful. But the parents of that person who assassinated Charlie Kirk, or the guy that tried to assassinate Trump, or the parents of the young Scottish boy who went off to fight on the Russian side against the Ukrainians.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean. Yeah. I don't know how you process 18, 19 year old going off to do.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, I'm just reading one of a sister. A sister of a guy who was involved in Islamic State and she lost her job on the back of it.

[Rory Stewart]

Right. You know, or parents of people who do school shootings.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. Anyway, it's a really. It's really interesting because if you think. I don't think I asked you what you thought, and I'd like to think I'd have you given him the same answer. But the honest truth is I've probably never thought of it. You hear about somebody doing something like the suicide bomber, you get a snatch of what they look like because there's a picture of them. But then you probably don't think, what's going on?

[Rory Stewart]

I knew someone who tried to strap himself up and blow himself up, and he was basically a kind of troubled, naive 18 year old who I knew in Afghanistan and he decided to try to. Was radicalized and went over to the Haqqani network and tried to blow himself up and was stopped by the police just 50 yards from detonating himself. I don't know what you do with it. It's a horrible thing.

[Alastair Campbell]

What are you reading?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, so a couple of things. One is a great book by Arthur Snell called Elemental, and this is a book about geopolitics and climate. So anyone really interested Geopolitics and Climate? I'd really recommend it because Arthur Snell's former British diplomat, he's worked in some of the very toughest places in the world. He also did conflict resolution stuff. It's really relevant at the moment, partly because he talks about why desalination plants happen, how climate change affected Syria and how unless we think about climate change, we can't really understand geopolitics. This is a theme he raised for another book. Sebastian Malaby's written a book called the Infinity Machine, which is about Sir Demis Hassabis, the Nobel prize winning, amazing AI Google DeepMind founder. And I've interviewed him on our Restless Politics AI miniseries and I think people should listen. I mean, firstly, Demis de Sabbat is mesmerizing, but Sebastian is an incredible analyst of these tech titans. He talks so well about, if you compare it, the culture of Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Trump and the risks of AI and the ways in which it's not being regulated, and the odd combination of good intention, recklessness and hubris that are driving us to the edge of some real challenges. So that interview which I've done with Sebastian Mallaby on Demis and Sabbath and AI is out on Friday and if you want to listen, go to the restispolitics.com to sign up. And final thing, Ditchley, which does those conferences, has got a great new series of walking round the lake talking to the director about geopolitical issues. So people on the more geeky side of geopolitics may include may enjoy a walk around the lake with By Ditchley.

[Alastair Campbell]

My last plug is the book I mentioned last week by Liam Byrne, Labour mp, why the Populists Are Winning and How We Defeat Them, which we're going to do a little miniseries on because it really, it doesn't have all the answers, but maybe if we chat about it, we can maybe get to some more. But it's a brilliant analysis of this whole.

[Rory Stewart]

And are you going to be able to weave in my new hero, who I've never actually met or I've only met briefly, Peter Hyman, who's been traveling around looking at populace in the States?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, definitely weave him in. Great. Is he. So hold on, you've gone from Alan, Bill Byrne, To Pedro Sanchez. And now you're with Peter Hyman.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've never given up on Corbin along the way, have I?

[Alastair Campbell]

With his ears. His beautiful ears.

[Rory Stewart]

His beautiful ears.

[Alastair Campbell]

Oh, another plug. My final plug. What do you think this might be?

[Rory Stewart]

It's a badge.

[Alastair Campbell]

I went to a UEFA conference last week.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, my goodness.

[Alastair Campbell]

Which is really interesting. It was really interesting.

[Rory Stewart]

Remind us. UEFA is

[Alastair Campbell]

what? UEFA is the Union of European Football Association.

[Rory Stewart]

It's like FIFA for Europe.

[Alastair Campbell]

Correct. That's right. That's absolutely right. So all. I was there to sort of talk to all the FAs, all the football associations.

[Rory Stewart]

Of Europe.

[Alastair Campbell]

Of Europe. So England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Holland Island. So it's a. There was Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

And there was Ukraine and Russia.

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, wow. UEFA's not kicked out. Russia.

[Alastair Campbell]

Russia is banned from competing.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Alastair Campbell]

But they can go to conferences. So there was Russia. Anyway, the guy from the Ukrainian FA came up and he said, I want you to. He listens to our podcast. He likes our discussions on Ukraine. He said, I want you to have our new badge. And the badge is a. It's a stadium and it's called Chernihiv Stadium. And it says destroyed by Russia. It's the stadium. I mean, why are they bombing stadiums? Why are they doing that? That's just hitting civilian infrastructure, isn't it? So that's my new badge.

[Rory Stewart]

It's very good. I was thinking of you recently in football, because I was watching Spartacus with the kids.

[Alastair Campbell]

I was watching Sparta Prague in the Czech League.

[Rory Stewart]

No, the original Spartacus. And. Yeah. And I suddenly realized there are, like, 80 different football teams called after Spartacus, called Spartac because that legend of the SL revolt inspired the communists and they all called their football team Spartac as a result.

[Alastair Campbell]

And what happened to your plans you were talking about? Your boys wanted to go to a game.

[Rory Stewart]

I hadn't got my head around how much Chelsea tickets cost. I'm afraid I was too mean to take them. Yeah, exactly. Brilliant. Now, final one for me. I know I said a final one, but this is really the final one. Maeve, where did Alistair get that dashing red coat? Chloe. Alistair, where'd you get that coat? Kind of want one. Hashtag style icon. And Victoria Davidson, talk us through the jacket choice.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I have to tell viewers and listeners it's. It was a present from Rory Stewart and it's a very nice person and I actually do love it. I've got it here. I was wearing it today. I gave you a nice present, though. You did wrote a tune for you came in lobby. So that, that, dear listener and viewer, is a Stuart Tartan. Now, whoever made a tribute to you

[Rory Stewart]

because actually as a gift, it was a quite a risky gift. There was a strong likelihood you might never wear it.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, I love it.

[Rory Stewart]

Great.

[Alastair Campbell]

I wear it all the time. But I wanted, I want a Campbelltown one. So whoever made it, it's made by

[Rory Stewart]

Glover all if we want to.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, I tried to get hold of them and I sent them a message. I've got this very difficult to get

[Rory Stewart]

a hold of gloverall. I really like things my pattern and bear coats made by them too. But I can never get hold of them to get any answers out of them. They've got different things on the website and I just want to ask simple questions like is this the same coat? And they'll never pick up. So gloverall, if you're listening, you make good coats, but you need to sort out your customer relations.

[Alastair Campbell]

But I'd like this in Campbell Tartan, if I may. Yeah, and I'll happily wear it.

[Rory Stewart]

My Sasha's just been reading Kidnaps and he was like the Stuart Campbell thing. I, I, the Stewarts really don't like the Campbells.

[Alastair Campbell]

No, it's more that the Campbells don't like the Stewarts, you know, I mean, what was the addictivity domination?

[Rory Stewart]

I sent him a, I sent him a picture of the Massacre of Glencoe, which I, I saw recently to cheer him up. Yeah, good. All right, thank you all very much.

[Alastair Campbell]

Thank you. See you next week. Bye.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye.

[Alastair Campbell]

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