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Rory Stewart (2:46)

Welcome to the rest of this Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell? Well, we've got a lot of really interesting questions this week. We're going to begin with a. A conversation about Palantir. Under a lot of scrutiny and criticism recently of this enormous American tech company having access to all this data and what does it do with this data? We're then going to get into the issue of why the Foreign Office has closed its International Humanitarian Law section. We're going to talk about mental health, young people, Gen Z, including the question of how people reported the war in Gaza, the language they used, the types of adjectives they use and the way in which bias can be identified simply almost through sampling statistics of the use of words. Now, where do you want to start?

Alistair Campbell (3:35)

Andrea Mihalsea, what do you think about Palantir's impact so far globally? Its recent public manifesto, seen by some as evidence of techno fascist tendencies, its ongoing contracts with the UK government across defence and health, and its subsequent access to sensitive data? We've had a lot of questions about Palantir in recent weeks.

Rory Stewart (3:54)

Yeah, well, look, the Palantir debate, in terms of the public debate, involves a lot of people who feel very, very angry about a US company connected to defence and the CIA getting their hands on British data. The story is, of course, like a lot of these stories, a little bit more complicated. What does Palantir actually do? Well, what it does is it deals with how data is managed between different databases and government and through looking at data, promises to deliver real efficiency. So I, when I was the Prisons Minister, for example, was pitched by Palantir. And what they pointed out is that it was impossible for me, for example, to find out how many prisoners had an undergraduate degree, which was important in terms of my funding effect. They pointed out that, well, I can't remember what, like, 92 different databases in the prison service and none of them speak to each other. Some of them were essentially put together in very old software systems. Often the data entry is no good. You type in a prisoner's name wrong or you don't format it right. And what Palantir developed to do is to develop plumbing to connect all these database systems together. So maybe a good illustration was after the debacle in Afghanistan, where the US were trying to evacuate people from Afghanistan. Palantir was brought in to connect information on which American planes were currently in maintenance, which had spare capacity, who was on the Runway. They would even connect this with social media and they were able to. To, they argue, bring together a much more efficient operation. Now, why are they controversial? They're controversial because that pitch that Came to me in prisons, has been successfully made to the nhs, to the Ministry of Defense, to police forces and to others. And what are they saying? They're saying to a police force, listen, there will be a lot of data and information that you have which will give you a lot of ways of predicting where crime is likely to occur, when it's likely to occur, what kind of crime will help you target resources, nhs, you'll be able to manage your waiting lists much better and you'll be able to do patient aftercare much better if you can put together all the complicated information.

Alistair Campbell (6:04)

Is there any evidence that that is happening, that that is working?

Rory Stewart (6:07)

Well, this is another question of debate. Right, so Palantir claims that there are reductions in X percent. I mean, they're not like President Trump style percentage reductions, right? We're talking about, you know, sort of 12%, 18% increase in efficiency in particular types of post op and stuff.

Alistair Campbell (6:23)

Presumably they're setting the metrics for that. Do we actually know whether this stuff

Rory Stewart (6:26)

is delivering as I think it's delivering and it's improving? My instinct before I get sued by Palantir is that it's making a difference at the margins. And probably if you're running the nhs, the difference at the margins actually results in saving hundreds of millions over time.

Alistair Campbell (6:43)

What was the cost going to be to the prison service initially?

Rory Stewart (6:46)

They were pitching to come in almost for free. Basically what Palantir said is the first response for civil servant. You come in and say, you know, we're going to clean up your data, we're going to make it, talk to each other and we're going to give you better information. As we don't have any money, we can't do it. So Palantir said, well, why don't we do it for free? We'll provide the product to you and if you like it, you can pay for it. After you've seen what we've done. Anyway, fast forward. British government's now using it a lot. But not just the British government, I mean the US government, it's across absolutely everything. Why is it controversial? One anxiety is around data. So obviously they're getting all this data information. Do they have access to it? Palantir says, no, that is absolutely not true. They don't have access to data any more than Microsoft does to the stuff you're putting into Excel. They are the software plumbing process.

Alistair Campbell (7:33)

And do you believe that?

Rory Stewart (7:34)

Yeah, that seems reasonably plausible. I don't think what they're essentially doing is they've got a secret vault where they're keeping all our data somewhere in the United States. I don't think that's what they're at. I think the bigger issue is around dependency, that as they become more and more central to the way in which we manage all the information in government, the fundamental bet that Alex Karp, their bosses made, which is that he believes he lives in a Western world where the US and Europe and increasingly Israel are all one team and we're all developing our hard power together, and there's never going to be any tensions between any of these players. And therefore, he would argue there's no risk to using a US company as the backhaul for almost everything you do with your military.

Alistair Campbell (8:18)

Well, if you go back to our discussion on the main podcast, that's being tested profoundly at the moment, and that's

Rory Stewart (8:23)

probably the biggest strategic threat they face. So they have a good software package. I mean, I think they have good software engineers. And they would argue that they are just another American product like Microsoft or cloud computing or increasing the AI platforms which we're going to run on. And we don't need to worry about the fact that they're domiciled in the us. If it's a good product, just buy it. But as you said, the last show raises real questions about dependency. You know, would Palantir be prepared to set up an independent European subsidiary which couldn't be instructed by the White House suddenly to switch off all access? So there are always two questions with these American companies. Data, which is what we've traditionally worried about. You know, can they read our private data? But I'm more worried about the second question, which is sovereignty and control and the US's ability in prison, Trump's ability to say to Google, I'm switching off the accounts of the head of the International Criminal Court. And Google complies.

Alistair Campbell (9:22)

Why is a publishing what's been labeled a manifesto? An extension of arguments that Karp made in one of his books, Technological Republic. So this manifesto claims some cultures have produced vital advances, others remain dysfunctional and aggressive debate. Says the west must resist the shallow temptation of a vacant and hollow pluralism, whatever that means, calls for mandatory national service. What the Folks have got to do with you argues it's a moral duty for tech firms to build weapons. Embraces religion in public life. And of course, Mr. Thiel, who is a big promoter of JD Vance. Nothing wrong with that. He's a democratically elected politician, but we know where he's coming from. And he said this about our great highways create traffic jams Welfare creates poverty, schools make people dumb, and the NHS make people sick.

Rory Stewart (10:19)

Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (10:20)

This is not a guy who strikes me as our values in the same place.

Rory Stewart (10:24)

No. So I've read Alex Karp's Techno Republic, and I've also read a biography of Karp. Well, I think, first thing is that you're right. Broadly speaking, the guy claims to be a registered Democratic voter, but his worldview is not a million miles away from J.D. vance's worldview. And some of it is sort of weirdly traditional. You know, there's a whole chapter in the book where he bangs on about Kenneth Clark civilization. Essentially, it's an Edwardian Gentleman in the 1970s pontificating about Michelangelo and Leonardo and all these kind of the great. So he clearly has a kind of hankering for Western civilization and Western values, and he's clearly worried that the whole world is getting flattened out and we're all losing our definition. He's obviously also somebody who is very driven by fear. He's somebody who believes that the world is out to get him and out to get the West. And he particularly felt this after October 7th. He sees Israel as being part of the west, and he thinks that we've got to wake up, invest in hard power in order to fight Russia, China, the Middle east, or whoever it is, they're coming to get us. It's quite a paranoid worldview. He's also obsessed. I mean, you'd have a connection with him on this. He's completely obsessed with Germany. Did his doctorate in Germany. HE SPEAKS GERMAN.

Alistair Campbell (11:41)

Karp.

Rory Stewart (11:41)

Now, Karp surrounds himself by Germans. A lot of his staff are either Germans or Norwegians. And he talks. He spends about half the day talking in German.

Alistair Campbell (11:49)

Are they good Germans or bad Germans that he's surrounded with?

Rory Stewart (11:51)

Well, sometimes they're German bodyguards. They're like Norwegian personal trainers. So there's quite a lot of that kind of edge going on. But to make it more complicated, because there's bits of it that sound a bit kind of fascist. He's also half Jewish, half African American. So it's not a sort of straightforward story here. And even weirder, the guy did a doctorate in Germany, but in his book, he sort of refers to Jurgen Habermas in a book that's essentially saying the world needs to be about decisiveness, executive power tech, getting on with things. When Habermas is really about kind of deliberative democracy.

Alistair Campbell (12:26)

Do they not understand that? Because I don't think they've explained what they do well at all. We once discussed them on the podcast, and they called me in for a briefing and it was interesting. And they were obviously putting their best foot forward and trying to persuade me. They're really good people, but I actually don't think they've done a very good job explaining who they are or what they do. Is that the sort of tech bro arrogance that I think most of them share, that they don't think it's their job to do that. But I think the governments that are using them have done a very good job either. So essentially, governments who are using them are very much back on the defensive. And the public, you talk about them being scared. I think the public feel very, very scared that guys like this are right at the heart of the wars in the Middle east, right at the heart of Ukraine. Are these the people that now have not just economic power, but are developing military power as well? And isn't that a bit scary?

Rory Stewart (13:19)

Yeah. The fundamental thing, just to finish before we move on to the next question, is that Kaap, like a lot of the big tech bros, essentially doesn't really believe in institutions. He believes in heroic good people, generally good men. And the general idea is, you know, the good men should be given the power, the good men should be given the technology and the weapons, and the good men will save the world.

Alistair Campbell (13:45)

It's amazing how these people see themselves as good.

Rory Stewart (13:47)

Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (13:48)

When Elon Musk, they probably don't like this, but I'd say Elon Musk and Sam Altman are probably the two most famous. Zuckerberg, maybe any of them don't drum as good people.

Rory Stewart (13:56)

And of course, the most powerful people pointing out that those people are evil are those people themselves. So Musk points out that Altman's evil. Altman points out Musk is evil. They all point out Zuckerberg's evil. A huge amount of what Alex Karp does is attack Facebook and Zuckerberg. So quite a lot of what's going on is I have to get there first because I'm good and all the others are evil. And given that those people you're calling evil say that they're the good ones and that the person speaking is evil, the problem with the idea of decisive executive power is that you end up with someone like Trump operating that decisive executive power. The problem with no regulation is you end up with someone like Musk. That's why we build all the things that Karp's so suspicious of, which is slow moving, bureaucratic, institutional liberal democracies, which he says, because they're not run by founders, are not capable of changing the world overnight.

Alistair Campbell (14:49)

Brian, let's go on.

Rory Stewart (14:50)

This is Gemma Trip member Bristol front office has quietly closed its unit responsible for tracking potential breaches of international law, including by Israel and Gaza and most recently Lebanon. What does this say about the UK's commitment to international law and practice? And why does nobody seem to care?

Alistair Campbell (15:05)

Well, you care, I care.

Rory Stewart (15:07)

Yeah, but it's part of a bigger program, isn't it? I mean this is just one tiny glimpse of what's going on. We're talking about a world in which we hope that Starmer's gonna reach into a bigger international position, reshape Europe, reshape the global alliance, stand up for the rules based international. What is he actually doing? He's basically a lot of the funding decisions feel like mini Trump. Cutting international development aid, shutting down the department that does international humanitarian law, dismantling so many bits of British soft power. Foreign office being cut by 20%, international aid down 5.7.3. So it's really, really strange given that Starmer is an internationally minded person with a background in human rights law. What on earth would he be doing shutting this down?

Alistair Campbell (15:50)

I'm assuming that this is a consequence of the cuts to overseas development or the merging of the Foreign Office is a budget thing.

Rory Stewart (15:57)

Absolutely. But the amount of money saved on this will be tiny. Right?

Alistair Campbell (16:00)

Peanuts. This is a time when we need more tracking of breaches of international law, not less. By the way, I was listening to Tommy Vita's pod Save America. He did a brilliant interview with a guy called Nick Enrich who has written a book called into the Wood Chipper. I haven't read it yet, but I've ordered it. And this is a guy who worked in, he was on the receiving end of Doge. And it's just incredible. Elon Musk goes in there, Doge, okay? The people are now living with the consequences which are mind blowing in their reach. The number of projects that have been cut, the number of people who are now dead because Elon Musk went in and decided I'm just going to chop things out.

Rory Stewart (16:43)

Do you mean things like the fact that hundreds of thousands of people are now dying of malaria because of the cuts?

Alistair Campbell (16:48)

And so all these projects the USAID was running, the projects that DOGE went in and cut in all across the government and then just walked off? And he describes this guy, Nick Enrich was describing these kind of, you know, 20 year old tech kids who were coming in and didn't have a clue about what USAID was, what it did, and were just in there with A spreadsheet that had been given to them by Elon Musk and his parasites. So this, the Foreign Office cut is bad. But honestly, when you listen to this guy talking about what he was responsible for and which no longer now exists, there is, we talk about good and evil. There is a special place in hell, in my view. Yes, he's done some amazing things, but what he did in relation to Doge is an absolute abomination.

Rory Stewart (17:38)

Well, first obvious thing to say in relation to Gemma, I think is that this is a cut that's not going to save much money. And it's interesting that of the things they chose to cut, they chose to cut this. And I wonder whether it isn't that. It's a little bit uncomfortable having a whole section whose job is to keep telling ministers this may be against international humanitarian law, so you can't sell these weapons, you can't allow these overflights, et cetera. And that maybe not having someone saying that might be a bit convenient.

Alistair Campbell (18:06)

Yeah, okay.

Rory Stewart (18:07)

Second one though is that if we're looking for the big test, you know, is Starmer going to stand up and really show he cares about middle powers and a bigger conception of Europe and a new world order? The first things to look at the canaries in the mine are is he going to get international development going? Is he going to stand up the international humanitarian law department? Because that's what the rules based order is about. Is he going to put more money into the Foreign Office? Is he actually serious about international policy? Because it feels to me at the moment as though we're putting a lot of emphasis. It's kind of almost Alex Karp, like on the Good man, who in this case is Jonathan Powell, who seems to be doing an incredible job flying around the world. Everybody's very impressed. Every time you talk to anyone on the Iran file or in the Gulf or Ukraine, they also, Jonathan Powell's doing a great job, but that is not a long term institutional solution to Britain, Europe and the United States. And that's where we want to look at funding aid sections.

Alistair Campbell (19:06)

Here's one from Janet Trip plus member from Exeter. Have you come across any issues recently where there is actually a surprising level of consensus? Have you?

Rory Stewart (19:14)

I do think it's really interesting how much Europe and the world has moved on the US just in the last 18 months. I don't think America's caught up to this. I just keep feeling when I go to the US they don't realize the change. I had some amazing figures. US perceptions of the UK have gone from in one year, from 38% of Americans thinking the UK is their most important ally, 20, 28%. And from people saying that the big reason for alliances in the US is democratic values. In 12 months it's now become trade and defense, not democratic values. This is Emerson College polling, which Harvard's Kennedy schools just shared. So I think a consensus is emerging that the world is changing. I think this thing that we've been bang on about for four years, people now agree on. What do people agree on for you?

Alistair Campbell (19:59)

Well, I'm going to go on mental health because we were in Belgrade. I couldn't be at the launch of a campaign I was supposed to help launch in the House of Commons, which is a campaign called Head on, which is bringing together 20 organizations in the mental health field, plus people with lived experience, as it's called. And the Wellcome Trust funded this and they've been good on mental health for a long, long time. And they did some polling with more in common. And it is really interesting because 3/4 of Britons say the government should do more. But you know when we did our populism series with Liam Byrne and he had these polling groups and more in common have got these groups, progressive activists, politically activ. Incremental left. They are left leaning but not very political. Established liberals, prosperous pro remain centrists who trust institutions. I guess I'll be one of them. Rooted patriots who are the red wall. Skeptical scrollers online don't like elites, traditional conservatives says what it is and dissenting disruptors who want radical change. And which of those groups would you reckon is the most believing that we need to do a lot more on mental health?

Rory Stewart (21:13)

One assumes that people who are more to the centre left are going to be more sympathetic to mental health. Is that wrong?

Alistair Campbell (21:19)

81% of rooted patriots. So what that says to me is that the red wall that we often get portrayed as homogenous, it's all about Farage, populism, Brexit, etc. Probably because of their lived experience of family or self. They are the keenest or the strongest believers that we have to do more on mental health. I thought it was really interesting, really

Rory Stewart (21:47)

interesting because it shows that the left right division isn't what you'd expect because sometimes when you hear the kind of Trumpian right they would almost portray sort of almost 19th century people talking about mental health, they're just kind of weak and everyone needs to pull themselves up and stop weak and woke.

Alistair Campbell (22:02)

No, I thought it was really interesting and what it says to me and look, I've been saying this ever since the election that I think the government should be doing way more mental health. And I keep hearing that something is coming and let's hope that that's true. What that polling says to me is that politically this is a much stronger and more important issue than people realize. And it also relates a lot of it to young people as well who are feeling a bit kind of let down by the government.

Rory Stewart (22:29)

And without being again, a bit over grandiose about this, how do we differentiate solutions which are targeting mental health head on compared to an analysis that maybe says actually this is partly caused by a society where the schools are no good, the NHS is creaking, work doesn't seem to be delivering dignity to people and that really what one needs is a country that's really sorting that stuff out.

Alistair Campbell (22:54)

Yeah, I guess the question is there is how much of this is a consequence of and how much is a cause. And look, you've got to deal with all of those things, but I think on its own terms and you will get people still who will say, although I hope this polling might actually get people to dial down on the kind of woke, you know, generation Gen Z, just everything's terrible. And anxiety. There's no doubt anxiety is a real thing and has grown, particularly amongst young women.

Rory Stewart (23:23)

And is it, I mean, if I, if I made you, if I mentioned mental health style, what, what are some relatively straightforward things that a government could do that could help people?

Alistair Campbell (23:34)

Well, it's the things that we've already done. It's talking therapy and the, there is the data there to show how effective. It's not always effective and it's not effective for everybody.

Rory Stewart (23:42)

It is for a huge number of people.

Alistair Campbell (23:44)

If you can get talking therapies for people who are starting to feel anxious, depressed, anorexic, whatever it might be, all the kind of common mental health issues,

Rory Stewart (23:53)

fund it properly, have it available and

Alistair Campbell (23:55)

also recognize that if you do put the money in at the right end, you end up saving so much money further down the track.

Rory Stewart (24:03)

And is there, I mean it's ridiculous. But would you, you know, can technology help, would doing more of the stuff online help or do you feel it needs to be traditional face to face?

Alistair Campbell (24:12)

Well, it's really interesting on the, the other thing that they did in the survey was they the most trusted communicator of mental health remedy were people who talked about their own mental health experience Yourself? Yeah, the least trusted was online chatbot. Now I think there's a place for that. I do Think there's a place for that. But it's, you know, I've seen this so often with people, is how much. I've got a friend at the moment who's really struggling with depression. It's got an absolute blind spot about medication. Just does not want to take medication. Now, that's fine. That's fine. You can do that.

Rory Stewart (24:45)

But medication is hugely helpful. Lots of people.

Alistair Campbell (24:47)

Totally. And for me, it's been a lifesavers.

Rory Stewart (24:50)

Yes. And so did you have a block initially? Were you initially?

Alistair Campbell (24:54)

Oh, yes.

Rory Stewart (24:54)

Okay.

Alistair Campbell (24:55)

I had a block about seeing somebody.

Rory Stewart (24:56)

Yep.

Alistair Campbell (24:57)

Nothing wrong with me. It's everybody else who's crazy. And I had a block about using medication for a long, long time. And this is why the thing about talking therapy is so important, because in the end, I found somebody called David Sturgeon, who's suddenly in our debt, who I totally trusted.

Rory Stewart (25:11)

And on the medication, one of the things that you. That one of the. I don't know if it's an urban myth, but the story that you often hear is people feel that it sort of has side effects and they don't want to keep taking it because, well,

Alistair Campbell (25:22)

it can, it can. It does have side effects, and you just have to manage those. I mean, the medication I'm on now, Sertraline, is probably the sixth medication that I've been on, and some of them have been. Had terrible side effects.

Rory Stewart (25:36)

Okay. You have to keep. Keep experimenting.

Alistair Campbell (25:40)

You do, and you have to kind of. This is why the relationship's so important. And I have this. This. David was so wonderful because he wouldn't say, this is going to work. He'd say, let's give this a go.

Rory Stewart (25:48)

Okay.

Alistair Campbell (25:49)

And you give it a go and eventually you find something. And I find too many people give up too soon on the talking therapy and they give up too soon on the medication. But this really, really interested me because that says to me, if you're thinking the traditional Trumpian faragist view, I bet Farage is view of mental health is very much, oh, pull yourself together. I don't know that he won't come on the podcast to tell us, but I think if this says to me, if you're going into tough working class communities, a lot of the stuff that is making their life worse than it should be is about mental health. And this, to me is those people saying that and government needs to listen.

Rory Stewart (26:27)

We also had a question about grief that interested me, and maybe it's a good segue because you've just been reading a book on grief. So the question is from Emily, which is. Do we talk enough about grief? Think enough about how to cope with grief.

Alistair Campbell (26:41)

Now I've got to declare an interest. My name is. We've talked before about when your name is on the front cover of a book, which.

Rory Stewart (26:46)

Mine was with Gary Stevenson, but it didn't stop us having quite a spicy. If you buy Gary Stevenson's book, mine's the only name on the book.

Alistair Campbell (26:53)

Well, I'm in the middle here on this book by Lindsay Nicholson, and I should declare an interest. Lindsay Nicholson is one of my oldest friends. When Fiona and I were trainee journalists half a century ago, nearly. Lindsay was also a trainee journalist and her husband was a guy called John Merritt, who was my. My best friend.

Rory Stewart (27:08)

Right.

Alistair Campbell (27:09)

And who died in his thirst.

Rory Stewart (27:10)

This is like a Tavistocks thing.

Alistair Campbell (27:11)

We were all in the west country, all down in the west country. And the book's called how to Survive Losing It All. And now Lindsay has written a previous book about John, my best friend. Her husband dying, followed by her daughter dying. Both died of leukemia.

Rory Stewart (27:25)

Her daughter died.

Alistair Campbell (27:26)

She was age 9.

Rory Stewart (27:28)

And her. And her husband also died of leukemia.

Alistair Campbell (27:30)

Age.

Rory Stewart (27:31)

In his sort of late 30s.

Alistair Campbell (27:32)

In his 30s, yeah. And.

Rory Stewart (27:33)

And is that related, presumably, genetic?

Alistair Campbell (27:36)

Well, they say not. They say not. And then Lindsay was pregnant at the time with her daughter Hope. So the book of the things is how to survive. Losing your husband, losing your child, losing your career, which she did recently. Losing your health. She had breast cancer. Losing your home and losing your mind. So it's how to survive Losing it out, losing it all, without losing hope. She's a brilliant writer, which helps, but it is just a kind of. And she talks very openly about the fact that there have been times when she's been completely suicidal.

Rory Stewart (28:05)

So, I mean, I still think one of the strongest interviews you've done with Leading is with Naz Shah, but some people felt that it was a bit depressing. I actually felt it was quite uplifting to hear how she. Is this book a bit depressing?

Alistair Campbell (28:19)

No, I think it's uplifting because it is about keeping hope. And she does get through these. I mean, she's this.

Rory Stewart (28:25)

How do you survive those things?

Alistair Campbell (28:28)

She would argue friendship, she would argue family, she would argue the ability just to kind of keep going. And the fact that she was pregnant when John died with Hope. I think hope has kept her going. And Hope's now married with a family, and so she's a grandmother. She did find another guy and they got married, and it seemed to be a kind of perfect second marriage, but it all Went wrong when he ran off with somebody from his swimming club. So she went through. And she's. I mean, these. She had a terrible car crash in the middle of all this. So it feels like she's got a misery memoir to tell, but it's not. It's like. It's how you keep going. And she talks, she says there's not a single hour of the day that she doesn't think about her daughter Ellie, who would now be 37. And we've stayed very, very close to her. We go. She comes with us to Scotland every Christmas, New Year. It is incredible. And. And so John's death, her husband, who was my closest friend, and he died. I don't quite know how you get over that, but she then had the. All the other stuff on top. But I think it's important that the point about grief, I mean, you do get through it in the main. People do get through it.

Rory Stewart (29:45)

Well, this will say it's very different, isn't it, with different people? I mean, I think there's. I was thinking about this a bit on the way in today that sometimes, if you would, I don't know, go online, you'd get a sense that there's a sort of recipe, you know, grief follows these paths and it's what you say. I thought about it a lot because my father died when he was like 92. I was with him when he died and actually I think it's. I haven't felt sort of shattering grief. I was very sad. But I also felt that I'd got to know him very well. We talked about everything we could talk about. He told me every story he could. And I'd been expecting him to die for 15, 20 years, partly because from about the age of 75 onwards, he kept saying, I'm almost done. And we talked about death and I was with him at the end. And

Alistair Campbell (30:34)

I think that's how you create a good death. Another great book about this, Philip Gould. Another. I've had so many close friends who've died and he wrote a book called When I Die because he knew he was going to die. And I just think we don't talk about death enough. We don't think about it enough. We're scared of it. I mean, Fiona's mum's in A. She's 101 and so, you know, we know she's not going to be around for long. She doesn't want to talk about it, which I think is fine. But I think there is something. I think there is something.

Rory Stewart (31:01)

It's helpful if you do.

Alistair Campbell (31:02)

I think so. I think that's even good.

Rory Stewart (31:04)

Very helpful that my father was happy to talk about it and he'd had a good life.

Alistair Campbell (31:08)

He'd had a good life. Audrey's had an amazing life.

Rory Stewart (31:10)

Yeah. And if you won't talk about it, then you're slightly sort of accelerating towards the edge of the cliff and dropping off and you just have to assume that they sort of knew they were going to die.

Alistair Campbell (31:19)

I think it feeds panic when you're alive, if you're not thinking. Actually there's a kind of natural, logical, perfectly healthy conclusion to this. So your dad died in old age? Yeah, my dad died. Your dad and my dad were born in the same year. He was. My dad was 82, my mom was 88.

Rory Stewart (31:37)

Did you feel great grief at that or did that feel sort of more natural?

Alistair Campbell (31:40)

My dad felt. I felt. I'll tell you what I felt is I wasn't there for either of them, my dad, because I was doing a marathon. And by the way, we must give a shout out to the Mr. Sebastian Sorwe, the first sub two hour marathon. Obviously I thought I was going to do that one day, but you know.

Rory Stewart (32:00)

Do you want to tell us your

Alistair Campbell (32:01)

time that year was 03:53:01, three hours,

Rory Stewart (32:05)

which is actually almost identical to Shoshana's time.

Alistair Campbell (32:08)

And I was probably 20 years older than Shoshana.

Rory Stewart (32:10)

There we are. So we were going to have a shout out. Sorry. While we're talking about heroes, Yomif Kacheltra, the Ethiopian, I feel so sorry, who came in just 15 seconds behind, broke two hours and was second.

Alistair Campbell (32:22)

And he's Buzz Aldrin, isn't he? In the history books?

Rory Stewart (32:24)

Very extraordinary to break two hours, set the world record and then find this another guy. 15 seconds.

Alistair Campbell (32:29)

Wonderful. Tom Parents was a wonderful interview with Sebastian Sorway's parents this morning and we're talking about he's going to come home, he's going to build a new church for the village, he's going to buy us a new car. He's like the guy. And he was so kind of diffident and modest about it. That's what I found. Amazing. Watching a big interview afterwards. So with my dad, I wasn't there because I was doing this marathon and he was. It wasn't like he was expecting to die that day, but he did die that day and with my mum it was even worse because I was in Jordan in your old neck of the

Rory Stewart (32:58)

woods for the King of Jordan's funeral.

Alistair Campbell (33:00)

No, I was. No, no, no. It was. I was just doing some work there and. And I was in a meeting and came out and there's 10 missed calls from Fiona, five from my sister. And I want this. My mum had a stroke. But, you know, I now think it's the best. I think her death, in a way, was amazing.

Rory Stewart (33:16)

And was the one them that was easier with you or were they both very difficult?

Alistair Campbell (33:21)

I think my mum's was more difficult because I think when you've lost your second, but your mum's still alive, when you use the second parent, you feel that sense of it's now your generation, you're in charge kind of thing. And also that fact that she died unexpectedly. My dad was expected. My mum was unexpected.

Rory Stewart (33:41)

Are you doing a good enough job with your own kids in case you

Alistair Campbell (33:44)

got knocked over by bus in talking about death?

Rory Stewart (33:47)

And would they be able to cope with it and handle it? I mean, have you prepared them for your own death?

Alistair Campbell (33:51)

No, no, and probably not. In fact, Grace regularly talks about. I had a terrible dream. I dreamt that you died. And she wakes up crying and da, da, da. No. Grace finds all that stuff very, very difficult. But I definitely will do. I definitely will do. I'd love to be like Philip Gould and say, right, I'm going to die. I'm going to plan it. These are the hymns that I want. This is the service I want.

Rory Stewart (34:12)

Get on with it, because as we keep going.

Alistair Campbell (34:14)

I've got the music. I've already sorted the music.

Rory Stewart (34:16)

Okay, good. Yeah, that's all been written down.

Alistair Campbell (34:17)

I've got the music, but the music changes.

Rory Stewart (34:20)

Okay.

Alistair Campbell (34:20)

This is the great thing about music, but basically there's gonna be a lot of Scottish folk music. A lot.

Rory Stewart (34:25)

Is Burnley gonna feature in this?

Alistair Campbell (34:26)

I think there'll be a Claret and Blue Flag somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I did say to Tony Blair, Tony Blair and I were at a funeral a couple of weeks ago, and I said, by the way, just says, you know, Sean Deitch is gonna be doing the bait eulogy at my funeral. Former Burnley manager Tony just said, not if I'm alive, he's not.

Rory Stewart (34:46)

Oh, that's very sweet.

Alistair Campbell (34:48)

There we are. Okay, let's take a break and then come back and talk about. People seem to love knowing what we read, Rory, so we're going to tell them what we read again. This episode is brought to you by itv. There is a new drama on ITV and ITVX called Secret Service, a political thriller that appeals both to Rory and me, not least because of our very different and varied Backgrounds, I might say. Makes it uncomfortably plausible.

Rory Stewart (35:18)

Yeah. The premise is simple. What if Russia had an asset right at the very top of the British government? I mean, I think it's a great story, isn't it?

Alistair Campbell (35:25)

This is David and Gordon from the

Rory Stewart (35:27)

Rest Is Classified podcast. This transmission has been intercepted from the streets of Malta to the corridors of Whitehall. The enemy is closer than you think. Even podcast channels aren't immune to interference to try to do it today. So anyway, it's based on the Sunday Times bestseller by ITV News at Ten's Tom Bradby, Someone who understands that world. And it stars Gemma Arterton and Rafe Spall. Secret Service, out now on ITV1 and ITVX.

Alistair Campbell (35:59)

Recommended both by Rory and yours truly. Welcome back to the Rest of Apologies,

Rory Stewart (36:08)

with me, Alistair Campbell and with me, Rory Stewart.

Alistair Campbell (36:11)

Talking to books. We've also been asked, who is this Josh? What have you been reading or watching this week? And I know you keep saying you want to mention this documentary on Channel four.

Rory Stewart (36:20)

Well, I've just. Yeah, I just did a documentary on Channel 4 on the Suez crisis. I mean, and I just thought maybe it's a good way of kind of wrapping up my contribution. Then back over to you. I've done a number of documentaries recently on history, which I did with Tom Holland on Caesar against Cato, just on Suez.

Alistair Campbell (36:38)

So hold on, Dominic Sambrook stood in for you here and then you stood

Rory Stewart (36:42)

over Dominic Sabre Sandbrook on the BBC history thing.

Alistair Campbell (36:45)

Bit of Podoltry going on.

Rory Stewart (36:47)

Yeah, Suez is really interesting. So it's interesting for two things. Firstly, the Suez Canal was thought about in the same way that we think about the Straits of Hormuz today. This was the great artery which everybody was dependent on for their oil. And the idea is you cannot let a kind of anti Western nationalist regime have their hands on our throats. And that was the reason why Israel, France and the United Kingdom intervened to reopen the Suez Canal. And that feels a lot like what Israel and the US are saying about the Straits of Hormuz and Iran at the moment.

Alistair Campbell (37:18)

Similar consequences.

Rory Stewart (37:19)

Similar consequences. Course is right. The second thing is it's about US power, because actually it's really a story about the fact that the uk, France and Israel assumed that the US would have their back. And actually what happened is the US turned entirely against them, organized the United nations to vote them down, and then threatened to bankrupt the entire British economy and destroy Sterling, so that the Chancellor Exchequer, Macmillan, has to go in and see Eden, the Prime Minister, and say, we need to be out of this war in 24 hours or we're bankrupt. And this is fascinating because it's a moment only 10 years after the Second World War. Tells you a lot about special relationship where Britain is still manufacturing 25% of the manufactured products in the world. I mean, Britain is still a pretty major country. It's still spending nearly 10% of gross national product on defense. Seven percent of the British population is directly employed by the armed services in some way or another. And Germany is spending about less than half of what Britain's spending on defense. Japan is spending about a fifth of what Britain's spending. And their economies are beginning to take off. And we keep going the services, navy, army, air force, even after the humiliation of Suez, spending and spending on these on defense. Meanwhile, Germany, Japan gets to a situation where Britain goes from 25% of the exports world to only 10% of the exports world in 20 years and Germany flops up to 20% and Japan's overtaker. So it's a really, really, you know, tells you a lot about power, world waterways and the United States.

Alistair Campbell (38:52)

So is this A1 or is this one episode?

Rory Stewart (38:54)

There's. There's two episodes, right? Two episodes.

Alistair Campbell (38:56)

It's out already.

Rory Stewart (38:57)

Yeah. And you can see it on Channel four. Catch up. Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (38:59)

Okay, well, listen, I had a fabulous weekend because Burnley weren't playing because one of the other teams were meant to play were in the cup semi final. I stayed in the house all weekend, apart from going swimming in the morning and taking the dog for a walk. Oh, and I sat on the sofa with three books.

Rory Stewart (39:21)

Okay.

Alistair Campbell (39:22)

And non stop football on in the background, which occasionally I watched.

Rory Stewart (39:26)

Okay, so you sort of read and then you look at the screen. Reading.

Alistair Campbell (39:28)

And I did a bit of work. And then on the Sunday on the television. Yes.

Rory Stewart (39:33)

Yeah. Okay.

Alistair Campbell (39:33)

Yeah. And I only put it up when there's something sort of. So I've got a feel for whether it's gonna be exciting. You know, some of the Scottish football in particular was fantastic at the weekend. So I was reading these books and I then decided on Sunday morning when I heard what had happened to Trump or what hadn't happened to Trump, when the guy going into the hotel a long distance from where Trump was, and I thought, this is going to be a complete new sponge. So much blather and babble is going to be spoke. I don't want to watch it. So I just didn't. I didn't look at my phone, I didn't watch the news. I just read and watched football.

Rory Stewart (40:08)

Much better for your mental health and better for actually, incidentally, for all of our mental health, because then we don't get so many WhatsApp messages from you. I'd like to encourage this to happen over the weekend more often.

Alistair Campbell (40:17)

Okay? Exactly, exactly. Okay. Sorry. Don't give away our trade secrets. Anyway, one of the books I read, we've already talked about how to survive the next one, which was this, Peter. And I wonder if. Do you remember my book of the year last year, Carlo Masala, what if Russia Wins? Peter Chappell, what if Reform wins? A scenario. And it is. I mean, Ferdinand Mount on the COVID says, hilarious, terrifying. Anthony Seldon says, we all need to take this scenario very seriously. So it's a scenario. So it basically starts and Farage is winning the election. And then it goes through. It's written as a diary and it goes through the utter total chaos that ensues. And what he's done is he's taken policy positions that Farage, Tice, Yousef, the rest of them have set out and he then goes through the process of them being put into practice. So he goes, coming out of the echr, he goes defunding the BBC. He doesn't do much on health. I don't think he does anything on health. And of course, Net zero. Okay. And I won't give away the ending, but shall we just say it doesn't last long before it goes completely, totally tits up. And it's partly. It's very. There's a bit where I'm reading it thinking this is actually happening. It's very credible. But then as you get into the thing working, it's a complete and total disaster. So I strongly recommend that one. And then this one, I'm 3/4 of the way through how to Sell a

Rory Stewart (41:48)

Genocide, which I've read. Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (41:50)

And what did you think of it?

Rory Stewart (41:51)

Well, I thought it was really, really moving. I mean, what Adam Johnson's doing there is he's forensically documenting the way in which people reported the Gaza war. Everything from the adjectives they use, the way they describe the two combatants, the amount of attention they pay to casualties on the Israeli side compared to the Palestinian side. Over to you.

Alistair Campbell (42:16)

No, I. And what's interesting is he doesn't cover Fox News, he doesn't cover the right wing media, he covers the liberal media, cnn, msnbc, New York Times.

Rory Stewart (42:28)

And I guess his point is that that's a more powerful case, that if it was just Fox News, all our listeners would be like, yeah, well, obviously Fox News does that.

Alistair Campbell (42:35)

Yeah. And essentially what it does is it paints a Pretty credible picture of what I think they sometimes call at the BBC institutional bias. And the bias is very much against any real portrayal of the Palestinians as anything other than kind of barbarians and anything other than Israel as victims. Though it changes. It changes over time.

Rory Stewart (43:02)

He also makes a point that he uses headlines to illustrate that in Ukraine the headline will always be Russia bombs somebody. And in Gaza the headline was always a bomb went off with no subject, so Israel's never identified. He also points out that when it comes to Russia, they're very happy to use the word genocide to take the views, the Ukrainians to always be skeptical of the claims the Russians make. Whereas when it comes to Gaza, they assume that the Israeli military is always speaking the truth. They make no real attempts to verify, they refuse to report things which the Israeli military hasn't itself verified. And they also talk about institutional pressure. So, I mean, this will make, I think, some of our listeners very, very uncomfortable and will feed into their general sense that we are anti Israeli. But I think if you can bear to read it, it's worth looking at

Alistair Campbell (44:01)

and interesting when you say if you can bear to read it, because it sort of feels at times like you're being hit over the head with a hammer. It's utterly relentless. I mean, it is compelling. But I several times had to put it down and go back to one of the other ones or go back to football, because I found it really not just disturbing, but. And, you know, one thing I'd like to have seen is whether he couldn't have also maybe have done Al Jazeera or a Spanish TV station that was very pro, just. Just to see whether there was another.

Rory Stewart (44:33)

Be interesting to see, actually, if he did us, what he'd find.

Alistair Campbell (44:37)

I think he'd find.

Rory Stewart (44:38)

How much did we pull our punches?

Alistair Campbell (44:39)

I think in the first, I was thinking about that. I think in the initial period after the. October. October 7th, he'd have felt we were very much in this space like the New York Times. We were like the New York Times.

Rory Stewart (44:51)

Yeah. Being instinctively.

Alistair Campbell (44:54)

And I think over time we got. But do you think, by the way, he's used AI to do things like. I mean, it literally sort of says, you know, they use the word massacre 3614 times. Or. How do you. How do you get that?

Rory Stewart (45:07)

That's relatively easy to do with it.

Alistair Campbell (45:09)

How'd you do it?

Rory Stewart (45:10)

Well, you simply get a program that gets into articles and counts the words. Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (45:15)

Am I sort of missing a trick with it?

Rory Stewart (45:17)

With some of our research, I often do it. So for Example, if you. Well, let's say you took. One of my running jokes is I will get the South Sudan Development Project and I will search for the word, you know, one of the tribal groups, dinker, and it'll appear zero times. You go to find and it tells you how many times.

Alistair Campbell (45:34)

Okay.

Rory Stewart (45:35)

And then you type in a word like sustainability and it'll be like 352 times will come up.

Alistair Campbell (45:39)

Right.

Rory Stewart (45:39)

So you can do that with all these documents.

Alistair Campbell (45:41)

Your point about Russia as well is a lot of, you know, in the first hundred days after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, 262 children were killed. In the first hundred days of Israel's assault on Gaza, more than 10,000 children were killed. Mentions of child deaths and related terms were 33.44% higher for Ukraine than for. Than for Gaza. He really goes for Jake Tapper on cnn. There's an introduction that really goes for the BBC. It talks about people who've been interviewed about Palestine for years who suddenly find they can't get on the shows.

Rory Stewart (46:12)

And a big hit on Morning Joe. Which is what?

Alistair Campbell (46:14)

Morning Joe. Absolutely. They get a real big hit. Yeah. Anyway, I'm glad you felt like I did it. It's a really tough read. There will be some of our listeners who think it'll just be completely biased, but it's got a lot of data in here. It measures it. He's clearly done the work and it's. It's a horrible read in a way. But I think it's important that people do see it for what it is.

Rory Stewart (46:37)

And he's clearly very much on the Palestinian side. So I imagine that if you were on the side of Netanyahu, you could go through that book and you could point out that he's equivocating about Hamas atrocities and lots of other things. But some of that stuff, the direct comparison on reporting on child death, whether or not you actually accept that the Israeli government claimed that the Al Shifa hospital had a massive underground terrorist bunker underneath as their reason for attacking, then it turned out there was nothing there. And that was never reported or right

Alistair Campbell (47:07)

at the start, immediately after October 7th itself, the stories of 40 babies being beheaded.

Rory Stewart (47:13)

Yeah.

Alistair Campbell (47:13)

Which became a fact.

Rory Stewart (47:15)

And which then actually, I mean, he also points out, of course, that Biden repeats a lot of this stuff without fact checking.

Alistair Campbell (47:20)

Yeah, that's the other thing that strengthens the case here. This is not a left wing, pro Palestinian guy going at Donald Trump. This is all during. This is one year of the Biden, Biden's term. And then this thing, this headline from the Onion, a satirical publication, ran the headline, dying Gazans criticized for not using last words to condemn Hamas. It was the thing that you wouldn't get heard in any of this outlet unless you first went on and said, of course.

Rory Stewart (47:50)

He also had something I thought was interesting in terms of government communications. He points out that the Biden administration's strategy for dealing with this was to use unnamed sources inside the administration to brief headlines. The New York Times saying, the President is powerless, he can do nothing, or the president is very angry, it's about to change. And he said it was like a skit, not a story. The same line would be repeated again and again. Nothing would ever change. But clearly the administration, aware of how uncomfortable people were, despite the fact clearly the US actually had enormous power. They were providing so many weapons, so much money for this. And in fact, the Israelis are very open. He quotes them saying, thank goodness Biden never asked for a ceasefire, because we would have had to do it almost immediately. But the administration briefing. He's powerless. Or he's angry. He's powerless. He's angry.

Alistair Campbell (48:41)

Anyways, it's a very, very interesting, challenging read. So that's what I was doing at the weekend, Rory, and I'm sorry if you missed all my WhatsApp.

Rory Stewart (48:49)

To be encouraged more weekends with books and football, please. Kate, what does the government need to start prioritising to help young people?

Alistair Campbell (48:59)

Well, mental health, definitely part of it. I actually, yesterday was sitting here in the studio with Vicki Spratt, who is a journalist who has talked thousands and thousands of Gen Z, and she's doing a miniseries for us. We're now commissioners, Rory. We're commissioners as well as presenters. She's doing a series on the Gen Z story.

Rory Stewart (49:22)

Look, I'm really sorry, but roughly, Gen z, roughly, how?

Alistair Campbell (49:24)

14 to 29, thank you very much. Born in 1997 and 15 years on, otherwise you become a millennial.

Rory Stewart (49:32)

Very good.

Alistair Campbell (49:32)

And she's looking at debt, student loans. She's looking at the housing.

Rory Stewart (49:38)

So broadly speaking, teenagers and young people.

Alistair Campbell (49:40)

Yeah, yeah. So she's going to be looking at housing debt, student loans. We get so much feedback on. On student loans and also social media as well. So she's. She's doing several parts. And then we're going to wrap it all up. She and I are going to talk about it. And then we're also going to talk to Angela Rayner, who's done a lot of the stuff that's actually been aimed, you know, particularly in the housing and the renting, rental Market. And then I think at some point, you and I should listen back to the whole series and talk about it, too.

Rory Stewart (50:09)

Lovely. Looking forward to it. Thank you.

Alistair Campbell (50:11)

And the first episode is out on Friday. That's the Gen Z Story, presented by Vicki Spratt. Starts Friday. Go to the restispolitics.com and you'll find it.

Rory Stewart (50:22)

Well, Alistair, just to finish on a very serious note, Bella, how tall is the president of Serbia?

Alistair Campbell (50:31)

Should we guess? I'm Gonna guess at 6, 7. I'm 6 3, and I reckon he was a good 4 inches taller than me, so I'm gonna guess that. 6, 7. What are you saying?

Rory Stewart (50:42)

God, they're tall people. I mean, all I know is that his staff are complaining that he's taller than Eddie Rama. And Eddie Rama wears platform heels to make himself look taller than boots.

Alistair Campbell (50:50)

That's true. Ah, well, wikipedia says he's 1 meter 99. What is that in feet and shillings and pence?

Rory Stewart (50:58)

Famously, Wikipedia's really, really bad on height. I really struggled to find out what Arnold Schwarzenegger's height was. Rishi Sunak's height was. Boris Johnson's height. I'm often quite interested in this and a lot of film stars, their height is not public. It's actually surprisingly difficult to.

Alistair Campbell (51:13)

Who's the one who stood on the box? Alan Ladd. He used to stand on a box, didn't he?

Rory Stewart (51:16)

Humphrey Bogart stood on a box.

Alistair Campbell (51:18)

Yeah.

Rory Stewart (51:19)

Tom Cruise is not tall.

Alistair Campbell (51:21)

No.

Rory Stewart (51:21)

But it's actually surprisingly difficult getting to.

Alistair Campbell (51:23)

Do you ever feel you need a box when you and I are doing a show together?

Rory Stewart (51:26)

Should do. I quite like being little and large. Little and large is good.

Alistair Campbell (51:29)

Do you think he's good? Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised he's only 199 because that's 6 foot 6. I just thought he'd be bigger than that. And also I think Eddie's taller than that.

Rory Stewart (51:37)

Okay, now, Alistair, thank you very much. So we covered a lot of ground, but I think maybe the things that stick with me most. Palantiran International Humanitarian Law, which is about how Britain thinks about a little bit more sovereignty and independence. And then a lot on grief, mental health and the complicated issue of how you report conflict and war, how you actually get balance. And finishing with this extraordinary controversy over the height of President Vucic. See you soon.

Alistair Campbell (52:07)

See you soon.

Norman Smith (52:14)

Hello, it's Norman Peston from the Rest Is Money. I've just had the most gripping conversation with an economist, Nick Bloom from Stanford, who's published a very influential paper on the costs of leaving the European Union, he and his colleagues calculated that leaving the EU has cost us 8% of our national income, our GDP. That's 240 billion more than we spend on the NHS every single year. What's really striking is that his numbers are now the numbers being used by the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, when she talks about the advantages of getting closer to the eu. So, if you want to know how damaging Brexit has been and whether that 8% number is robust, whether it's real, join me for the latest episode of the Rest Is Money.