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- [00:00]
Alistair Campbell
Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics to support the podcast, listen without the adverts, and get early access to episodes and live show tickets, go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com
- [00:13]
Rory Stewart
it's becoming very, very polarized. There's a sense that a lot of my friends who are worried about anti Semitism are not very sympathetic to Islamophobia, and people who are worried about Islamophobia are not very sympathetic to anti Semitism. Actually, what we need is a reset of the whole democratic conversation, which says fundamentally, everybody's equal, everybody deserves to be prot across the board, and they should be working together to make those arguments.
- [00:37]
Alistair Campbell
This episode is brought to you by Fuse Energy.
- [00:39]
Rory Stewart
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Alistair Campbell
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Rory Stewart
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Alistair Campbell
And if you're on the wrong tariff, you can be stuck with higher rates after the pressure has ended with Fuse
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Rory Stewart
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Alistair Campbell
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Rory Stewart
Switch to Fuse Energy's tracker tariff@fuseenergy.com politics and use code politics to get a free trip plus subscription.
- [01:37]
Alistair Campbell
Visit fuseenergy.com for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.
- [01:50]
Rory Stewart
Politics now demands a kind of constant attention. News alerts, statements, email links, clips, briefings. But it's all arriving at speed, asking to be opened at once. And once that becomes routine, you stop checking things as carefully as you should.
- [02:02]
Alistair Campbell
And data breaches are at record levels. Most people don't realize how exposure they are. It's only obvious when things go wrong.
- [02:09]
Rory Stewart
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- [02:21]
Alistair Campbell
Threat Protection Pro blocks dodgy websites, gets rid of trackers and ads, and catches phishing attempts early. And when you're clicking through dozens of news links a day, that matters to
- [02:31]
Rory Stewart
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- [02:44]
Alistair Campbell
The link is in the episode Description
- [02:47]
Rory Stewart
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com. Welcome to the restless Politics Question time with me Rory Stewart.
- [03:31]
Alistair Campbell
And with me Alistair Campbell. And unsurprisingly, Rory we of questions on the back of the attack in Gold Is Green, two Jewish men stabbed and a man now in court for that and the stabbing of somebody he stabbed earlier. Should point out, by the way, we had a little bit of criticism for the fact that we last week discussed a book on genocide and we were both very, very critical of Israel, I think. I don't know about you, but I stand by every word I said in that discussion. But some people felt we shouldn't have discussed it on the back of this, but we should simply point out that that discussion preceded this. But anyway, there we are. So first question here in the discussions about what to do about anti Semitism in the uk. Why can't we separate our relationship with and attitude towards Jews from any opposition to the behavior of Israel? It seems that nobody is brave enough publicly to make the distinction because they might be accused of anti Semitism. That kind of goes to the heart of the problem.
- [04:33]
Rory Stewart
The first thing is there is a real problem of antisemitism in Britain. It's rising. There are more attacks, including violent attacks. There was the attack on the synagogue, which people remember. There's this recent stabbing in the streets. You will find that many, many people in the Jewish community in Britain are feeling increasingly worried. You've got the chief rabbi saying showing public signs of Jewish worship outside is now feeling dangerous. There are security teams surrounding synagogues and schools. And there is a real, not just perception of threat, part of which was linked to the outpouring of attacks on Israel over Gaza, as you say. So the two things can connect, but also a real sense of genuine attacks threats happening against Jewish communities. So I think that's the first thing that I think any politician has to deal with before you get on to the other stuff. I really feel that one should say, which is one should be able to absolutely say that Netanyahu's government is terrible, that what they're doing in Iran is illegal, that what they did in Gaza was a war crime, and that there are also an enormous numbers of attacks on other minority communities in Britain and increasingly open hatred of Muslims being expressed. But that hates doesn't have to be said to accept that our Jewish community in Britain is in a really fragile position and are feeling under really difficult pressure and attack and they feel that people aren't stepping up or speaking up for them or protecting them enough. Back over you.
- [06:15]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. And I think the thing that they feel perhaps more strong than anything is that the anti racism campaigns generally tend to be run by people on the progressive side of politics and they feel that the progressive side of politics is the one that doesn't speak up strongly enough for them. Okay. And I have, by the way, you know, we, when Fiona was growing up in North London, I say a very, very high proportion of her friends are Jewish. And there are people that we know that, you know, we see reasonably regularly who say that in the last few weeks and months, for the first time, they've really felt like they're not sure that they want to live where they live anymore. And that is real and it should never ever be dismissed. But at the same time, as per Chris's questions, that does not mean either that you shouldn't be able to say you think the Israeli government is terrible or that there shouldn't be an understanding that when so much bad stuff is happening to the Palestinians, that there shouldn't be the right to protest about that in a fair, reasonable, democratic way on the streets of London or any other city in the uk. Just on the facts, Rory. Let's just, let's just try and it's quite hard to get figures on this, but the recorded religious hate crime up 25%, up from 8,370 to just under 10 and a half thousand in the year up to March 2024. So it's the highest annual account since counting began in 2012. Okay.
- [07:51]
Rory Stewart
Yep.
- [07:52]
Alistair Campbell
Sharp rise in religious hate crimes targeted at Jewish people. There were 3,282 religious hate crimes targeted at Jewish people in the year up to March 2024. It's the last full figures we can get, but that's more than double the number recorded the previous year. And that accounts for one third exactly of all religious hate crimes in the last year. And the previous year was 20%. There was also an increase in religious hate crimes targeted against Muslims since the beginning of the Israel Hamas conflict. 3,866 in the latest year, up 13%. And almost 2 in 5, 38% of religious hate crimes are targeted against Muslims. So that's the, they're the facts, they're the numbers that we're talking about. But as you say, the fear that those that that reality represents and creates is real. And I think it's that that is growing as much as anything.
- [08:51]
Rory Stewart
And just quickly to define what we mean by religious hate crime. So it's any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or another person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's actual or perceived religion or faith or lack thereof. So could be threatening behavior, name calling, or it could be assaults, it could be attack on a place of worship or graffiti, it could be online abuse. So two quick things. I mean, the first is Australia has been going through a very, very long review on how to deal with anti Semitism after the horrifying terrorist attacks on Bondi beach, when literally a father and son turned up with rifles and began systematically shooting Jews as celebrating the most holy Jewish festival on Bondi Beach. A lot of that has focused on arms control. So a lot of the Australian response has been around not letting people access weapons. The recent attacks in Britain, of course, been knives, not guns. The most recent attack is somebody living in a mental institution and who actually attacked somebody who appears to have been Muslim earlier in the day and then attacked two Jews later in the day. Now, how do you disentangle the question of what weapons are available, whether people can get their hands on a gun or a knife from general propaganda or views towards minority groups, lies about them, prejudice about them, specific anti terrorist moves. How would you actually deal with people who are properly planned terrorist cells? Which I would guess is very different from a mentally ill individual wandering around attacking people with a knife. And I think this is one of the things that governments are struggling to do. I heard an MP on the radio saying the honest answer is we're not going to be able to keep everybody safe all the time. Which I think will have worried a lot of people, but probably has an element of truth to it.
- [10:45]
Alistair Campbell
Somebody was saying to me, you know, why did Keir Starmer come out and make such a big thing of this? Shouldn't they waited to find out exactly what this Guy and whether it was mental illness, whether it was hatred or ever. But what the government is worried about is that there is no doubt, and we're seeing this in relation to Ukraine as well, that the Russian intelligence services recruit people to cause division and mayhem, and the Iranians do this as well. Now, I have no idea if that is the case here, but that is something that the government is very, very worried about.
- [11:14]
Rory Stewart
Can I try to understand that? Because it seems a bit unlikely in this case, right? It doesn't seem like a classic Iranian intelligence operative, none of us know.
- [11:22]
Alistair Campbell
But what I was told by somebody who works inside the security services about the way that the Russians do it is that they hang around places like magistrates courts and they find Vaul vulnerable people who need a bit of money. And they say, can you maybe start a fire here? Could you perhaps cause a bit of trouble there? Can you? You know, so it's pretty low level. We're not talking about, you know, Iranian spies who are coming in and doing this sort of stuff themselves. But as I say, I think you're right. I think this is unlikely in this case. But the truth is, none of us know. I think the other thing that we should think about this, and this is where social media has become such a kind of impediment to serious debate when serious things. I think one good thing would be if politicians didn't think that their reaction to any important event is that they should find their thumbs and go to their social media feeds. Zach Polanski got himself into political difficulty because he retweeted somebody condemning the way that the police were dealing with this guy on the ground. So somebody's filming the guy on the ground. He's still got a knife in his hand. It looks like some of the faces were blurred, but it looks like the police are kicking the guy in the head or the shoulder or the neck. It's not entirely clear. So Polanski got into trouble for that. Lots of the stuff that causes difficulty in these debates, I think, comes from instant reactions from people who actually, it would be better if they just waited a bit.
- [12:49]
Rory Stewart
Is it too idealistic to say that the key to this is for minority groups to work together to make the case for the protection of minorities and minority rights, that what. What actually shouldn't be happening is the Jewish community attacking Muslims or Muslims attacking Jews on these issues, which. It's becoming. It's becoming very, very polarized. There's a sense that a lot of my friends who are worried about antisemitism are not very sympathetic to Islamophobia. And people are worried about Islamophobia, are not very sympathetic to anti Semitism. Actually, what we need is a reset of the whole democratic conversation which says fundamentally, everybody's equal, everybody deserves to be protected. We live in a country where minority communities deserve to be protected and looked after across the board. And they should be working together to make those arguments because they're the same philosophical arguments, not we're the real British people and you are. The lot aren't. Or you deserve this because of something that's being done internationally and we don't. Or your culture is like that, or your religion is like that. But just get back to the basics of we are a country that is protecting minority rights.
- [13:56]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. And in an ideal world, that would be so much better. But it's very, very hard in the polarized environment in which we live. And the problem with the way that instant news, social media, instant reaction. Everybody has to have a view, everybody has to have a theory, everybody has to pretend that what they thought before about previous incidents is likely to apply to this one. I think sometimes it's just the nuance and the complications that get lost. And actually a couple of pieces from the weekend media which I think are worth mentioning because they did actually get of the news, both written by Jews. So Robert Shrimsley in the ft, Robert, who I know very, very well from when I was in number 10 and he was a political journalist. Very sad piece in many ways. He basically starts it by saying that his son was set upon by a couple of guys and they were in a pub and they asked if he was Jewish and he said no as a way of avoiding getting beaten up. He said that he felt the anti Semites felt emboldened at the moment. But he went on to say this. I don't minimize the outrages in Gaza and I don't deny the Palestinians are wronged people, nor do I automatically conflate opposition to Israel with antisemitism. I'm deeply uneasy at the calls to ban marches, but it is time for organizers to police their own movement. It should be entirely possible. This speaks to what Chris said in his question. It should be entirely possible to be anti Israel without sinking to dehumanizing language that offers sanction for those who wish to menace British Jews. And the other piece was a piece by Eva Wiseman, who lives in Golders Green. And she pointed out when Sarah Spackman, who's the local mp and she's Jewish and she's been a fighter for Jewish people all her life. When she turned up, there were protesters there constantly calling her a bitch. When Keir Starmer went there, an organization called Stop the Hate was holding up banners. Keir Starmer, the Jew. Hamer. Keir Starmer, who happens to be married to a Jew and whose children are being raised as Jews. And we can only be fair to both sides in the way that you're talking about, if actually both sides can see some good in the other and not get driven along by this sort of monetized, polarized hate that social media depends on. And Eva Wiseman in her piece, the headline is that the dread that I feel here today is an old dread, paper inflammable. And she says, I hate writing about this because I feel really heavy inside my chest whenever I do. And she says, this is the reason why. Those who say all critics of Israel are anti Semitic mirror those who say all Jews are racist. Right wing politicians who make accusations of anti Semitism have agendas that sit far beyond the safety of Jews, and as in the case of Tommy Robinson or the Trump administration, are often friends with anti Semitic extremists. The more accusations of anti Semitism are misused, the less power a real claim has. I don't know. Look, it's incredibly difficult. There shouldn't be a hierarchy of hate. All hate and all hate, whether it's online and all hate crimes in the. In the real world, are bad and have got to be dealt with, and they've got to be dealt with equally. And just on the social media stuff, Rory. But let's just talk a little bit about Zach Polanski because, you know, we had him on the podcast. He said some very, very strong things about Israel, most of which you and I agree with. He retweeted something probably unwise. Well, I will say unwisely, because he should have just thought, right now is not the time. Let's stand back. Let's wait to see what this is all about. He's paid a political price for it and he's apologized. That's fine. The Economist this week, this was before this happened, done an analysis of Zach Polanski's activity on just one social media site, Blue sky. And his team, by the way, say Zach Polanski does all his own social media. Okay? He liked 35,000 posts in a 12 month period. That's a lot. That's a lot of activity. He goes on to say around a third of the posts include his name. They tend to be adoring. I'm impressed with everything I've seen From Zach. God, how I love this man. Goes on, though, to say that his liking activity shows a lot of hostility to journalists. Our own dear Marina Hyde from the rest of Entertainment wrote a mildly critical article following it. He liked 20 posts criticizing her by name. Marina Hyde is a total twat, began one of them. He also, he liked a post that describes somebody from the Guardian. I'm not going to say the word because it's the C word. As a smug, sanctimonious C word. In November, a post which described Sky News Sophie Ridge as a sneering dickhead. And the article concludes that Mr. Polanski's thumbs are working faster than his judgment. And that's the lesson he should take out of the post that he did at the weekend.
- [19:02]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, yeah. It's quite revealing. It's quite revealing. Quite interesting revelation. Okay, now here's a speech which I think both of us admired immensely. Diane, Trip plus member from Devon asks. Hi, Alistair. Rory. I watched the King's Speech to Congress yesterday evening. When the King mentioned the war in Ukraine, he received a standing ovation from the House. Did either of you notice that J.D. vance did not applaud? What should we take from that? Will the US Continue to sideline Ukraine?
- [19:32]
Alistair Campbell
There are a couple of other questions I thought were very interesting. Barzia from London, did Rory help write the King's Speech? And Julie, is it my imagination or could the speechwriter be one? Mr. Alastair Campbell, humble? Well, I didn't. Rory, did you?
- [19:46]
Rory Stewart
No, I didn't. And I think it's very flattering that actually, really one of the great speeches, I mean, by which I mean, I don't mean it's the Gettysburg Address, but I mean, if a speech is the perfect coming together of the moment, the personality and the subject, those were pretty close to pitch perfect speeches. And I think it's something that we underestimate when you read a book of speeches because you read them out of context and so you're reading them as though they're Shakespeare. It's just the language, everything here, which made the drama of it. I mean, it was unbelievable. Right? I mean, you could almost write a movie out of it. In terms of the King's life, the
- [20:24]
Alistair Campbell
King's, you could call it the King's Speech.
- [20:26]
Robert Peston
The King's Speech, starring Colin Firth, possibly.
- [20:28]
Rory Stewart
Exactly, exactly. And very, very similar structure. His Majesty became King quite late in life. He had a much, much loved mother, and he no sooner had he become monarch than he was diagnosed with cancer. There have been so many difficult things surrounding him and he then goes off to the United States with you. And I very, very skeptical about whether he should be going at all into the most difficult moment imaginable where you're representing the United Kingdom with Trump, when Trump has been needlessly humiliating and insulting towards Britain and the British Prime Minister, and my goodness, he pulled it out of the bag.
- [21:10]
Alistair Campbell
I mean, if I. I've regularly. I'm sure you have as well, but I regularly get asked to do these, you know, speech of the this and speech of that, and people compile anthologies of speeches. And the last one that Hansar did, it was a speech by John Smith. I've talked about before that, when he taught John Major, the non. The man with the non Midas touch. But Charles's speech is one of those speeches that will. It will be in future anthologies of great speeches. And just remind people there were two speeches, the speech that he made to Congress. And if you remember, Rory, when we talked about this last week, I said, well, I've been told he was going to speak up for NATO. I hope he does. But then he did NATO, he did Ukraine, he did the rule of law, he did checks of balances, he did climate, he did the environment, he did his family's history in the military. Trump having said that, you know, we always kept ourselves back from the front line. But then he also did this separate speech in the White House at the banquet, and he had a couple of great lines in that one as well. He had the one about, you know, you recently complained that if it hadn't been for you, we'd all be speaking German. Well, might I suggest it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking French, which is a bloody. That's a good insult, right? But he delivered it with sort of wit. And Trump had to laugh. He then said this in sport, in just a few weeks, the United States and. And Canada will be among those countries in the world as hosts of the FIFA World Cup. So in one sense, Mr. President, as heads of state, we are joint hosts. Just reminding him, I'm the king of Canada as well, mate. And then he had a quote from Shakespeare. He was praising America for being the home to more Shakespeare folios than anywhere in the world. 82 copies in the Folger Library. And he quoted to a speech by the Duke of Burgundy and Henry Van. My speech entreats that I may know why gentle peace should not bless us with her former qualities. Trump would not have got. I don't say he was basically saying, could you stop this stupid War in Iran, which Trump had just said. King Charles supported, by the way.
- [23:05]
Rory Stewart
Well, and I think the other thing that makes the drama of a really, really great speech is that you can read the audience. So, particularly with the Congress speech, even more than the White House speech, you are so aware that there are an enormous amount of pro Trump Republican senators sitting there and you' aware that J.D. vance is sitting right behind him, often with a thunderous expression on his face, often reluctant to get to his feet. So you've got this incredible dramatic tension of how's that line gonna land? How's that gonna land? And the extraordinary revelation that he is able to say things which are very challenging, challenging the American administration's policy straight down the line.
- [23:51]
Alistair Campbell
Absolutely.
- [23:51]
Rory Stewart
He does not endorse what they're doing in Iran. He calls for peace, he calls for support for Ukraine, he calls for democracy, human rights, liberty, Magna Carta, the Constitution, limits on executive power, investing in climate and the environment. And he's doing it in a way that is drawing enormous numbers of members of Congress to their feet with standing ovations which could never be achieved. I mean, any Democratic politician would be unable to do that, to get a bipartisan response like that for these kinds of values. And then a final thing, without sounding too pro British about this, he did it in a very British register. I mean, it wasn't an American speech. It was playing very much to a certain sort of quiet, wry British sense of humour underlying it, understatement underlying it. And also a speech that almost only he could have given, you know, only he really can get away with referring to Magna Carta as though it was yesterday. So I really thought, you know, cometh the hour, cometh the man. I mean, this was extraordinary. And if you wanted an example, again, you know, I don't want to overly roll into this, but why I remain such a passionate supporter of the King and the monarchy, regardless of all the things which are illogical and impossible to explain. It was a role that would have been very, very difficult for somebody who wasn't a constitutional monarch to perform. Almost impossible for an elected politician to do something that deft in Congress.
- [25:28]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, I've been in Congress for some of these kind of, you know, foreign dignitary speeches. And I remember once when Tony Blair was doing a speech there and there were bits of the speech the Republicans were cheering more than the Democrats. And then the Democrats thought, well, they're cheer we have to chee. You get. It's almost like a football crowd where a chance suddenly sort of moves around the chamber. I think I'm right, though, Diane, that the bit where Vance did not stand up when everybody else did wasn't Ukraine. He stood up for that very reluctantly and very slowly. And he clapped in a way that it was almost as if he was trying to make his hands not touch each other. So he didn't make any noise. But the time when he didn't stand up, which is, I think, even remark more remarkable, was when Charles said his thing about nature being our most precious and irreplaceable asset. And Johnson, Mike Johnson, the speaker, who I think is just generally oleaginous anyway, so probably wanted to be standing up lots. But he sort of saw that Vance was keeping his bum firmly seated on the chair, but then he thought, everybody else is getting up. So he got up and he looked at Vance and Vance gave him a really kind of lemon swallowing, sort of of angry look. So what did it mean for Ukraine? Is the sidelining going on? What it said to me was that actually, take away the Trump administration and whatever it is that Putin's got on Trump, take away JD Vance, who clearly hates Europe and hates Ukraine, the body of US Politics as represented there was completely on the side of Ukraine. And that gave me a little bit of hope.
- [27:02]
Rory Stewart
Well, it's a big question, isn't it? And it's the big drama of the United States, these two different Americas, which you can see there, that speech that the king gave, so many of the values are almost universal, American values kind of baked into the Constitution. But those Republican senators and congresspeople are the very same people who, in all their interviews recently, their hearings with judges, federal judges, have demanded that the federal judges accept that Biden stole the election.
- [27:37]
Alistair Campbell
And they won't say it.
- [27:38]
Rory Stewart
And the judges, as you say, and this is probably the most sort of fatal sign in America. It's unbelievable. The judges refuse to say that Biden validly won the election, something that has been proved repeatedly by American courts. They're refusing to speak the truth. Now, you cannot have a system where your judges won't respect the courts and won't speak the truth just because they want to get a job.
- [28:03]
Alistair Campbell
Fiona and I were watching the speech live, and after the first 10 minutes, when I realized he was going to exceed my expectations, he was going to hit all the buttons, I started cheering it like it was a football match. You know, climate, climate. Yes, yes, he's done. Climate, nature, yes, Ukraine, all this. So, but the other thing, Rory, when they were standing outside the White House and they were just doing this, was when they were saying farewell and they were just sort of standing there having a few farewell pictures. And one of the reporters shouted out, what do you think of all the improvements that are being made? In other words, the ridiculous ballroom. And Charles just stood there for about five seconds. Trump sort of muttered, he liked it. Muttered, right. And then Charles just said, we shall see.
- [28:59]
Rory Stewart
It's amazing. And the other amazing thing which I think is really good is that you've often pointed out that there's no point in love, actually. Moments that simply alienate and provoke and achieve nothing. And part of the real skill which made it a real act of genius. And you know why? I wish I'd written that speech and feel so jealous whoever did. And I think the king will have played a huge part in it. And when I've seen his speeches, there are scrawling reg spider writing all over them.
- [29:26]
Alistair Campbell
I've seen a lot of the spider
- [29:27]
Rory Stewart
writing in my time again and again. But he managed to do it standing up proud for Britain, for values that we all believe in, and somehow did it without alienating or provoking Trump.
- [29:39]
Alistair Campbell
He definitely alienated and provoked Vance. And I'll tell you, another moment where I saw Vance swallowing multiple lemons was when Charles talked about the importance of Christianity and they all clapped that. And then he immediately pivoted. And it's why I value so much the work I do at interfaith, interfaith dialogue. I mean, it was just, it was like, you know, here's one for you and then here's another one for you. Very good. Loved it.
- [30:06]
Rory Stewart
Why don't we take a quick break? And Alistair, you have made us focus on the issue of Mali, this enormous country in the Sahel, which has been right at the heart of global terrorism, jihad, and now the relationship with Russia and what used to be called the Wagner Group. So more of that after the break, led by Alastair and with a question.
- [30:29]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [31:02]
Rory Stewart
Welcome back to the Restless Politics Question Time with me, Roy Shewitt.
- [31:05]
Alistair Campbell
And me, Alistair Campbell. Now, Rory Marley, Alex from Dublin. Given Russia's failure to defend Kidal and other Malian cities despite deploying its Afrika Korps, how sustainable is Moscow's security partnership model across the Continent. Should Russia's African partners be seeking alternative security arrangements? Or does the Kremlin retain sufficient political and economic leverage to weather this type of damage?
- [31:28]
Rory Stewart
Wow. Okay, so firstly, I'm not as up to date on Mali as I should be. And actually I was reminded to go back into the humility game. I talked to my friend Adrian, who has been the Africa correspondent for many, many years and actually lived in Kenya for nearly 30 years. And I was talking to him about Marley this morning and he said, well, I'm not really up to date on exactly what's happening in Mali. Internet, it'd just been there. So, anyway, I did talk to my friend Will Brown, who is now ECFR and does a huge amount on Malian Sahel. And I directs people towards reading the more detailed stuff there. In very broad terms, though, Mali is a butterfly lying on its side. And the wing up in the north is largely empty Sahara Desert and traditionally dominated by nomadic communities, pasturous communities with livestock, facing really tough conditions in this arid environment, many of them Arab and Tuareg. And then down in the south, on the other wing of the Butterfly, you have 90% of the population. It's more agriculture and it's more traditional, black African. And this has been a big tension all the way across the Sahel between pastoralists and settled people. You can see versions of it in northern Kenya, see versions in Somalia. You can see versions, obviously in Sudan. We talked about Hameti and the forces there, which is very much people who come from this kind of wilder, nomadic, camel herding background, fighting the people coming from the riverine valleys of Sudan. But Mali is the worst of all. I mean, Mali is the place which has really fallen apart. You will have encountered a lot of it through the French press because the French deployed quite early into Mali and it's been the front line between these Al Qaeda affiliated groups and these Tuareg affiliated groups who had traditionally found their base up in that empty zone of desert on the northern wing of the butterfly. And the southern groups, the French, were kicked out. There was this chain of military coups all the way across the Sahel. In almost every case, French and Americans booted out, Russians brought in. And since the Russians have come in, I'll hand over to you on this, it's gone from bad to worse. The French actually began to look quite impressive compared to the Russians.
- [33:44]
Alistair Campbell
Well, yeah, so, and the other thing to reply, it's not just, you know, when you say butterfly and people think, well, that's pretty and that's nice. It's Huge. It's twice the size of Ukraine. And they kicked out the French about five years ago now. And they turned to Russia in particular, the Wagner group with my alleged lookalike, according to the rest is classified, who by the way, have done a very good series on Iraq. Rory. They interviewed me for it and as you know, I can't pretend it's my favorite subject to talk about, but we had a interesting discussion about it. So Yevgeny Prigozhin, he goes in there, sets up the troops. But then of course, when he turned against Putin and eventually got killed, the Afrika Korps, as the question suggests, they take over. And in answer to the question, there are no doubts about the reliability because the truth is, faced with these separatists on the one hand and the Al Qaeda linked JNIM group on the other, the Russians have fled. And it meant that the rebels, if you want to call them that, the separatists, they were able to enter very close to the capital. They've assassinated the defense minister, a guy called Kamara, who was a Russian speaker. He was the man behind their strategy. They've severely injured the head of intelligence and they've taken control of quite a lot of the, the upper part of the, of the butterfly. And so people are pretty down on the Russians. Added to which this whole story, the atrocities in terms of violence against women and girls, rape and torture of the people they capture, has fueled support for the insurgents. The leader of the country, the president, this guy Goite, he came to power in one of these coups that you talk about. He wasn't seen for several days, and when he finally was seen, it was in a photograph with the Russian ambassador. And I think that's the Russians trying to say we're still in charge here. But they're not as in charge as they were, it would say.
- [35:34]
Rory Stewart
I was talking to the African Union representative, Sahel, and he said that he is one of, I think, 165 envoys to the Sahel. As you imagine, every country has a Sahel envoy. Every organization has a Sahel envoy. But he said he was the only one actually living in Mali. I mean, it's a really interesting example of the international community going a bit nuts. I think also someday we should talk about how difficult it's been to analyze this. I mean, I think many people listening will have been aware that this story around Mali has been on everyone's News for about 15 years. And of course, people remember Boko Haram in northern Nigeria, which is a related story again, about tensions between pastoralist groups and settled groups and climate change, which is driving a lot of this. And then there are the things that nobody predicted, maybe because we're not paying enough attention. Chad, for example, has held together much more strongly than Mali Benin, which people thought was going to collapse. You could make an argument that the African Parks, which was an international ngo, which did some really interesting work, invested in national parks and community work, contributed to stopping insurgent groups taking over in Benin. There's been quite good responses coming up from Ghana. Ivory coast hasn't fallen in ways that people might have predicted 15 years ago. So it's not a universal story, but poverty's right at the core of it. Because when I've been with these groups or in these areas, and I'm talking now, it could be Somalia, it could be Sudan, could be even northern Kenya, the poverty is absolutely unbelievable. I mean, it's communities with nothing. You can see them on the edge of World Food Program feeding stations. You can see them walking weeks out of the desert with infants who are dying on their chests. These are people who have absolutely nothing. I mean, they're the very, very poorest people in the world. Their governments are offering nothing to them. You have the sense that the government in Bamako is so detached from the lives that people are living in the north, and therefore in certain groups that are able to provide a kind of modicum of sometimes law, sometimes people say. I remember somebody saying about Al Shabaab, yes, they'll take payments at checkpoints, but at least they'll give you a receipt. And the next Al Shabaab checkpoint won't take another bribe. Whereas when the police come in, they fleece you every which way.
- [37:59]
Alistair Campbell
Have I told you before I did advise the government in Benin for a while.
- [38:03]
Rory Stewart
Oh, my goodness.
- [38:04]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, I went there. It's a really interesting place, but it's pro Western.
- [38:09]
Rory Stewart
Pro Western and doing better.
- [38:11]
Alistair Campbell
Well, Rory, depends who you talk to. So the guy that I was dealing with, President Talon, was a great name. It means heel in French, as you probably know, says T A L O N, not T A L, E N, T. But if you look at the. All these kind of Transparency International and the Democracy Index people, they basically say, please don't give me the blame for this. But they say it's gone from being what was called a beacon of democracy in West Africa to something less than that. The last election, it was very hard to stand in the opposition. Media, judiciary, usual stuff.
- [38:54]
Rory Stewart
Well, final one, if we're talking about African leaders, Ibrahim Traore, who has emerged In Burkina Faso is become the great celebrity, the kind of Che Guevara of the rest. He took over in a military coup in his early 30s. He's become a TikTok star. He's been helped by AI and the Russians who promote him through Russian television and radio. But also huge bot factories, AI factories like Nigel Farage, a level beyond. I mean, the guy has become the big celebrity of Africa. And he speaks anti imperialism, pro Russian skepticism about Western democracy. And AI generate what appear to be tributes to him from the Pope, songs about him that claim to be by Beyonce. It's an incredible thing.
- [39:40]
Alistair Campbell
We should get him images.
- [39:42]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, well, we should. Yeah. Ibrahim Traore, if you're listening.
- [39:45]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah.
- [39:45]
Rory Stewart
Please, come on. The rest is politics leading.
- [39:48]
Alistair Campbell
We'd love to. We'd love to. Final point on. On Mali, the hunter under goiter have made a series of big mistakes. They kicked out the United Nations. I'm sure that's. That was a mistake. They broke the Algiers agreement. This was the peace deal that they had with the Tuareg separatists. And they also left ecowas, the economic community of West African states. So they kind of basically were signaling they could go go on their own. And they also changed their position in relation to the battle between Algeria and Morocco over west. The Western Sahara. So they've made. They made a lot of mistakes. But that being said, I think it's good that we've talked about it because I don't think it's on that many people's radar right now. And it's pretty grim. What's going on there.
- [40:31]
Rory Stewart
Well, Alison, maybe as we move on from the grim to maybe lighter stuff, advice on dating people with different political views. And Maggie, can friendships survive deep ideological divides?
- [40:44]
Alistair Campbell
I think friendships can, but I've never understood how marriages do. I've never. James Carville. James Carville and Mary Matlin. He was working for the Democrats, she was working for the Republicans. I don't know how they do it.
- [40:56]
Rory Stewart
Joe Johnson, Boris Johnson's brother, who was in parliament with. He's married to many gentleman who ran these incredible front page articles in the Guardian on child poverty, attacking austerity while he was a minister. It is interesting that, but I guess people make it work, right?
- [41:11]
Alistair Campbell
I mean, I guess. Yeah, I suppose they do make it work. I mean, you know, deep ideological divide. I mean, Fiona and I have had some very deep ideological differences of opinion,
- [41:20]
Rory Stewart
the Iraq war being one.
- [41:21]
Alistair Campbell
The Iraq war was definitely one, but there were others.
- [41:23]
Rory Stewart
The general lefty biased on my things tends to think. Fiona Tends to be right on most of these debates whenever they're. They're raised. But maybe that's just my.
- [41:32]
Alistair Campbell
As you being a complete creep. As you a total creep. No, I mean, history has proved me right on so much that we've argued about. Yeah, she's definitely more. She's got a more romantic, idealistic view of how the world should be and how it therefore could be. I'm probably more practical and pragmatic. Used to be able to buy T shirts and mugs at Labour Party conference with the thing that said, I've never knowingly fucked a Tory.
- [41:57]
Rory Stewart
Yes. And Angela Rayner, I think, got into trouble for making a joke along those lines, didn't she? Yeah, yeah. And you used to say. You used to say stuff like that, didn't you? I think I probably before.
- [42:08]
Alistair Campbell
Before I met you, Rory, and realized that it was possible to have friendships across political divides. I'm not sure I could. I think if we disagree agreeably, that's all fine and good. It's all fine and good for a podcast, but I think if you've got to do that 24 7.
- [42:22]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, listen, listen. I find it very difficult with friendships, to be honest. I have found it difficult. I think a lot of people found it difficult over Brexit, if you remember what it felt like then. I mean, the polling was unbelievable. 25% of people voting for each side said they'd find it difficult to talk to someone from the other side, and 50% said they wouldn't allow their kid to marry someone from the other side or wouldn't want their kid to marry someone from the other side. But I feel it because, you know, I've got friends who will say to me, well, you know, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump, but, you know, I've got to say, and I find that really, really difficult. I mean, really difficult. And I quite quickly get dragged into a pretty unpleasant argument. It's the same with, you know, I been seeing some people around the Tory party in can be. Not recently. And when they lead with. Well, Rory, unlike you, I thought Boris Johnson was a great Prime Minister. I find it very difficult to keep my temper and I find myself kind of banging the table and getting a bit shaken. It's not easy. I mean, on the Trump thing, it may be that both of us do obviously have forms that Trump derangement syndrome. But I had such a difficult time in the States with people telling me that, that everything he was doing in Iran made sense, needed to be done, no options. And I didn't find it actually that easy. We're about to release an interview that we've just done with Rahm Emanuel, with him saying, yeah, Trump's done some bad things to Europe, but let's be honest, there's blame on both sides and the Europeans didn't spend enough on defence. I mean, I find that stuff. I wouldn't find it easy to keep friendships going and the only way I can do it, I don't know how you feel, is by saying to friends who say that, let's just not talk about that. You know, I sometimes get that with my mother, who's much more right wing than me. I adore her, but I have to just shut the conversation down.
- [44:21]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, well, it's interesting. I was, I was at the Sport Industry Awards the other night and I was on table such and such. I was looking at the other names on the table, including Tani Gray Thompson, who I've known for a long, long time and I think she's great, an amazing athlete and amazing person. But of course, she was a very, very big voice in the recent assisted dying debate where, you know, I felt very, very strongly that the House of Lords did the wrong thing. But similarly, I just decided, okay, I'm going to go up to her, I'm going to give a big kiss and I'm going to say, it's lovely to see you, then I'm going to go and sit down and if it comes up, fine, but I'm not going to raise it. I think the old pre rest is politics. Me. I think the two big issues that really do it for me, one is Brexit. I don't mind if somebody comes along and says, look, I'll vote at Brexit, but I wish I hadn't. The ones I can't stand are the ones that say, well, yeah, it's been ship. I don't care. They. That's a, that's a deal breaker for me. Private education. Here you are, Rory. I'll let you out of this one because private education for people who go on about how much they care about state schools. So like when we had a. With the kids at the school that our primary school, our kids went to when we had a very bad Ofsted and the ones who pull their kids out on the basis that, oh, well, the sport's not good enough or, you know, my kids have got really special talents and they're not being developed properly and therefore I have no option but to. I can't stand that we've lost quite a few Friends on the prize.
- [45:47]
Rory Stewart
I wonder on that one. There's an interesting thing there, isn't it? Because partly it's about personal cost and your own personal commitments. So you decided to stick with a school that had had a poor offset thing, and they're almost implying they care more about their kids than you do. And you say it right and you've made a difficult decision to stick with it and believe and you love your kids and you're going to make it work within the system. I think that's right. I mean, I feel this a little bit with Boris. There was some personal cost to me from going against him, turning against him, leaving politics.
- [46:24]
Alistair Campbell
Bye.
- [46:24]
Rory Stewart
Bye. And that adds to the kind of anger I feel when people are just like, yeah, I guess these are not
- [46:33]
Alistair Campbell
the sort of people who necessarily become my friends, but I. Some. I met somebody not long ago who I. They weren't a close friend, but somebody I was, you know, reasonably friendly with. The friendship had evolved with nothing to do with politics. And then I discovered that actually they really, really hated politics and they hated, you know, they're in that sort of. Oh, they're all the same. Anyway, once you say something like that to me, I'm sorry, you're not going to be welcome. So there we go. Last question. Last question from somebody called Daria. You often give us your book and TV series recommendations. I'd love to know some good podcast recommendations, too. My first recommendation is going to be the current miniseries on a podcast that's called. Oh, get. Let me get this right. It's called the Rest is Politics and it's by. And it's not by Roy Stewart, it's not by me, it's by. Is presented by Vicky Spratt and it's a miniseries on Gen Z. And I've had some great feedback on it.
- [47:32]
Rory Stewart
I've got some great feedback on it, too. It's really what it was just to explain to listeners. It's a huge departure for us. I don't think we've ever put anything out that isn't presented by one of the two of us. No, in fact, barely put out anything isn't presented by you because you don't take a day off. So this is a big departure and we thought long and hard about it, make sure that we were proud of the product, the quality. But I think it's worked very well and people have responded very warmly.
- [47:55]
Alistair Campbell
Haven't they should also say as well, Rory, I mean, I think if it's still the same as it was when we were doing our tour a while back. A third of our listeners are at or under 30, so we do have a lot of people who are interested in Gen z, which is 14 to 29. Should also say that we're offering discounted membership to students 20 pound down from the usual whatever it is. So I hope that will make people want to kind of join the Restus Politics family. You do that@the restispolitics.com sorry to keep going about the rest is but they do rather dominate this thing I've had. The other thing I've had a lot of good feedback on is the rest is history series on Thatcher and the 70s, so I think that there's a lot of good stuff out there. Do you listen to many other podcasts, Rick? I'll be honest, I don't.
- [48:42]
Rory Stewart
I'm a bit of a nerd on international relations podcasts. I didn't actually in this case, but generally, if I knew you wanted to talk about Mali, I'd probably listen to two or three podcasts on Mali because I think it's a lovely thing to hear real voices of experts getting in on that. The usual suspects Council on Foreign Relations does great stuff. CSIS tends to do really good stuff. I think you've talked a little bit about the AQ podcast America.
- [49:07]
Alistair Campbell
Oh yeah, I love them.
- [49:08]
Rory Stewart
America's Quarterly, the deep, deep stuff on Latin America.
- [49:11]
Alistair Campbell
They're one of my regulars. I don't have many regular. Most of my regulars are German, I'm afraid. So for German listeners, I'm sure they'd be interested in that.
- [49:17]
Rory Stewart
But if you want a shortcut to find the best podcasts on international affairs, run a couple of large language models run, you know, ChatGPT and Claude. Ask them. And between the two of them, if you run them against each other, you often come up with a really good short list of two or three recent episodes.
- [49:32]
Alistair Campbell
Well, Rory, unless, unless he's putting us on them, I don't trust them at all. Why should I let. Why should I let these tech bros. Billionaire trillionaires who are currently trying to kill each other in court. Why should I let any judgment to them?
- [49:45]
Rory Stewart
Ditto. If you're looking for deep dives on, let's say, you know, the Czech Republic or Hungarian elections, there are often, you'll find really, really good local podcasts. Often they can be a bit stilted because it's often like, you know, the assistant professor of political science from the University of Freiburg talking about this. But my goodness, you get into the. The details of what's going on Final one, which if people haven't listened to, maybe worth going back to the War Game podcast done by Sky News and Tortoise, which imagined a Russian attack on the uk. I told about the fact that I didn't regret the fact that you and I didn't go on Celebrity Traitors. I do a little bit regret that I turned down the invitation to go on this. Amber Rudd, Ben Wallace, Jack Straw, Mark Sedwell, I think it was Richard Barron. But a lot of former Labour Conservative cabinet ministers and generals and intelligence chiefs, national security advisors are war gaming. What happens if Russia started to attack the uk? And spoiler alert, it's pretty terrifying when you discover how few options Britain have or what they can do. And it's a route into something we'll talk about someday also, which is the vulnerability of places like Lithuania and how you would defend the Baltic. Anyway, the War Game podcast. My final recommendation.
- [51:03]
Alistair Campbell
Excellent. Well, I think we've recommended another enough podcast now, but do stick people with the rest is politics and the rest of college leading and make sure that they stay.
- [51:12]
Rory Stewart
We'll do all the listening to other podcasts for you. You won't have to listen to Prague Talks because Rory will have listened to it on your behalf.
- [51:19]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, and as long as we stay number one and number two, one of the highlights of my week week is on a Wednesday royal just to take a look. And if we're not number one and number two in the UK podcast episode charts, I get very, very angry. So you do.
- [51:33]
Rory Stewart
And this is quite a high bar to hold us to for four years. Just to explain to listeners, Alistair insists that we're not number one in the politics category. He wants us number one across all podcasts in the uk, which you achieve almost all the time. But it's quite stressful, this endless. I didn't ask the question on how you keep your work ethic going, but maybe we'll return to that. Carrie's question. Where does your relentless work ethics come could tackle on another occasion. Anyway, lovely to talk to you and have a great day.
- [52:01]
Alistair Campbell
All the best. Bye bye.
- [52:02]
Rory Stewart
Bye bye.
- [52:03]
Alistair Campbell
Phone Labor.
- [52:12]
Robert Peston
Hello, it's Robert Peston from the Rest Is Money. I've just had the most gripping conversation with an economist, Nick Bloom from Stanford, who's published a very influential paper on the costs of leaving the European European Union. He and his colleagues calculated that leaving the EU has cost us 8% of our national income, our GDP. That's 240 billion more than we spend on the NHS every single year. What's really striking is that his numbers are now the numbers being used by the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, when she talks about the advantages of stages of getting closer to the eu. So if you want to know how damaging Brexit has been and whether that 8% number is robust, whether it's real, join me for the latest episode of the Rest Is Money.