551. Will Farage’s Trumpian Resignation Stunt Backfire?

Summary

The Rest Is Politics Episode 551: Will Farage’s Trumpian Resignation Stunt Backfire?

July 7, 2026 | Host: Alastair Campbell; Guest: Mehdi Hasan (standing in for Rory Stewart)

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Episode Overview

This "Question Time" special features Alastair Campbell and guest Mehdi Hasan dissecting the breaking news of Nigel Farage triggering a by-election in Clacton, analyzing its political strategy and media implications. The episode explores the Trumpian tactics of distraction, the UK’s evolving media landscape, the downfall of Keir Starmer, and Andy Burnham’s rise. The hosts dive deep into questions around political accountability, media bias, personal faith, and the state of the Labour Party.

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Farage’s By-Election Stunt: Trumpian Tactics and Media Manipulation

Main discussion begins: [02:16]

Key Points

• Farage’s Motives for By-Election ([02:16]–[06:34]):

  • Farage announces he’ll resign to trigger a by-election in Clacton, presenting himself as a victim of “an establishment stitch up.”
  • Campbell questions if this is a distraction from mounting scrutiny over Farage’s finances and associations.
  • Mehdi Hasan describes Farage’s move as classic Trumpian deflection:
    “Nigel Farage worships at the altar of Donald Trump… flooding the zone with shit, as Steve Bannon famously put it a few years ago.” [03:08]
  • Parallels drawn to David Davis’s 2008 resignation for a by-election, described as a “ridiculous, egomaniacal by-election.” [13:16]

• Will It Work?

  • Both hosts agree the tactic shifts the narrative, potentially halting negative coverage.
  • Campbell: “He makes us all talk about him, think about him…” [15:41]
  • Media's tendency to pivot to the race itself rather than sustained scrutiny.

Notable Quotes

• On Farage’s victimhood:

  • Campbell: “For this guy to say he’s the most attacked politician in modern British history, when two MPs… have literally been assassinated, you can fuck off with that.” [10:03]
  • Mehdi: “Donald Trump says the same thing… that I’m the most hated, I’m the most attacked. No one’s had it worse than me, even Lincoln, who was assassinated and killed. So it is very Trumpy.” [10:19]

• On the media’s role:

  • Mehdi: “The media loves a good horse race…” [06:34]
  • “Nigel Farage has been on Question Time 38 times… how many times was he asked about his finances?” [07:05]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Farage’s resignation and motives: [02:16]–[07:50]
• Media complicity and coverage: [07:50]–[11:44]
• Discussion on parliamentary investigations and public votes: [12:31]–[14:20]

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Media Scrutiny, Accountability, and Right-Wing Affinity

Discussion Highlights

• Delayed Media Toughness ([07:21]–[14:20]):

  • Farage allegedly evaded accountability due to media bias, with increased scrutiny only recently appearing in papers like The Sunday Times.
  • Farage’s network includes “Posh George” Cottrell and other controversial figures.

• Media Treatment Comparison (UK vs US):

  • Campbell and Mehdi critique British and American journalists for “treating Farage [and Trump] more as commentators than politicians.”
  • Mehdi: “Ask him actual accountability questions… not just opinion questions.” [14:20]

• The Right’s Shifting Center of Gravity:

  • “They’ve now dragged [the Tories] so far…the center of gravity in the right-wing of our politics so far to the right that now even Nigel Farage is not right-wing enough.” [15:41]

• On Political Implications:

  • Whether Farage’s donors, like Christopher Harborne, are getting their money’s worth as Reform UK’s ambitions falter.
  • Local sentiment in Clacton is mixed, with criticism that Farage “spends more time in America than in Clacton” possibly more damaging than links to Trump or Russia. [19:01]

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Impact on Labour, Media, and Political Strategy

Starmer’s Downfall & Burnham’s Rise ([20:00]–[33:55])

• Starmer and the Media

  • Mehdi strongly challenges the “decent man brought down by media” narrative, citing Starmer’s controversial positions and lack of communication skills:
    “I don’t know how he was Director of Public Prosecutions… one of the worst speakers I’ve ever seen in modern British public life.” [23:44]
  • Campbell and Mehdi agree the right-wing press, social media dynamics, and figures like Elon Musk played a significant role.
  • The media’s power to shape narratives—“Many people…can’t state why they’re supposed to hate Starmer”—owing to algorithmic influence. [23:47]

• Lessons for Burnham

  • Both expect Burnham’s big test will be dealing with an even more complicated and hostile media landscape, including social media platforms regarded as “divisive, vile, neo-fascistic.” [28:30]
  • “You have to fight fire with fire…change some of the structures of power in this country.” [29:46]

Notable Quotes

• Mehdi: “The problem is people couldn’t really identify what Starmer stood for… You can’t survive on a list of things.” [31:34]
• Campbell (on Burnham’s impression): “To become leader and Prime Minister through an act of pretty profound ruthlessness. And yet…chatter is he’s a really nice bloke… That’s pretty, you gotta raise your hat a little bit to that.” [33:55]

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Faith and Political Motivation

Discussion Segment: [39:28]–[41:51]

• Mehdi on Faith:
  • “Optimism is not the same thing as hope. …I am a hopeful person because I am a person of faith. And my faith teaches me that we must stay in the struggle even when we cannot see light at the end of the tunnel.” [40:10]
  • Cites Desmond Tutu: “Hope is being able to see the light despite all the darkness. It’s not the absence of darkness, it's being able to see it despite it.”
• Campbell:
  • Reflects on Andy Burnham’s Catholicism as an underexplored political motivator. [41:41]

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Quickfire Personal Questions

Segment: [42:04]–[44:02]

• Describe your politics in three words:
  • Mehdi: “Justice, always, forever.” [42:19]
  • Campbell: “Left of center.” [42:26]
• Do you enjoy arguing?
  • Mehdi: “I love arguing. I wrote a book about arguing. It’s a real problem for my wife and kids… but it has helped me in my professional life.” [42:49]
  • Campbell: “I do feel things very, very deeply. …when I’m arguing with somebody whose views I really, really, really profoundly disrespect, I feel this kind of boiling rage inside me.” [44:21]

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Memorable Moments

• Alastair’s trenchant pushback on Farage’s self-victimization:
  “You can fuck off with that.” [10:03]
• Mehdi’s comparison of media treatment:
  “Stop asking Trump opinion questions. … Ask him actual accountability questions.” [14:20]
• Discussing which public figures have been most frequently on Question Time:
  “Nigel Farage has been on Question Time 38 times…” [07:05]
• Campbell’s anecdote about Gordon Brown changing into a different tie as “casualwear.” [34:01]
• Football aside: England, Scotland, and the image of Harry Kane (plus, Kane’s golf with Trump…). [35:21]

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Concluding Thoughts

Both hosts express concern over the UK and US media’s failure to hold populist right figures accountable and the enduring effectiveness of Trumpian tactics. They foresee a tougher political and media landscape for Labour’s Andy Burnham, with the necessity for a clear vision, sharper strategy, and active media management. Personal faith, hope, and commitment to justice emerge as themes of resilience amid political pessimism.

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction: [02:16]
• Farage’s motives and resignation: [02:16]–[07:50]
• Media coverage, scrutiny, and Trump comparison: [07:50]–[14:20]
• Implications for Labour, Starmer’s critique, and Burnham’s challenge: [20:00]–[33:55]
• Faith and motivation: [39:28]–[41:41]
• Quickfire (politics in three words, love of arguing): [42:04]–[44:21]

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Tone and Style

Informal, witty, sometimes combative but always rooted in sharp political and media analysis, with both hosts willing to openly disagree and self-satirize—exemplifying their stated aim of “the lost art of disagreeing agreeably.”

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For more in-depth and exclusive content, listeners are encouraged to subscribe via therestispolitics.com.

Transcript

[A]

Nigel Farage, who rarely visits Clacton, thinks that what Clacton needs is a by election. Beset by questions about where all his money comes from. Losing his rag with reporters as he returns from the United States, and apparently with some of his own supporters losing faith in him, he clearly thinks he needs a new narrative. Is this a big bold move to show he's the victim of an establishment stitch up as he claims? Is it about trying to stop the investigation into his finances in Parliament? Or is it just Nigel Farage being Nigel Farage and getting us all talking about him? One thing is for sure. Just as in recent weeks we were talking all the time about Makerfield, in the coming weeks it's going to be Clacton.

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[A]

Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question time with me, Alistair Campbell and me,

[D]

Mehdi hussle in Washington, D.C. and the

[A]

reason Mehdi's here is because Rory, as you know, is on his annual silent retreat. Mehdi and I are not going to be silent as we talk about all sorts of things. Now Mehdi, while we were recording the Main episode, we had one eye on a television in the background because Nigel Farage was speaking. And the reason we're putting out a question time ahead of the main episode is because, as expected, he was announcing that he was stepping down. Not stepping down as Reform UK leader, not stepping down as the man who thinks he can be the next Prime Minister, but stepping down and sparking a by election in his own constituency. Let's kick off with that question from Matthew. What is Nigel Farage up to? You want me to have the first go at that or would you have a go at that?

[D]

I mean, it's very clear what he's up to. This is classic distraction and deflection. Nigel Farage worships at the altar of Donald Trump. Where I am in Washington D.C. trump has mastered the art of distracting from scandals and controversies by making you look over there, by flooding the zone with shit, as Steve Bannon famously put it a few years ago. And this is the classic response. Nigel Farage is facing the worst media he's ever had, which isn't that high a bar because he's had such soft and good media for the last 15 years. It's the first time he's really ever faced any serious, sustained scrutiny or criticism of his finances, of his leadership, of his background, of his allies. Instead of addressing it head on with. We first saw him hide from media interviewers during the recent elections and now doing this kind of David Davis esque gimmick, if you remember, the Shadow Home Secretary at the time David Davis resigned. Was it Holton, Preece and Howden? I think, was his by election.

[A]

Well done. Well done.

[D]

Mehdi 2008. I was a British journalist.

[A]

David, you've been away a long time

[D]

and he quit over some civil liberties issue and it was a ridiculous thing and he had to kind of, you know, we did a whole by election, by elections. Cost a lot of money, people. This is what Farage is doing. He's not giving the people what they want, which is, goodbye, Nigel Farage, go away. He is actually doing this gimmick whereby, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know what happens to his parliamentary investigation into this 5 million pound donation. Does that get put on hold while this byelection goes on? Do we stop talking about it? Because that's what he wants us to do.

[A]

We don't have to. Nobody can tell us what we talk about and people can talk about it. I don't know about the election because of course, the minute you, you do the chiltern hundreds, as they're called. And you're no longer a member of Parliament. So if you're no longer a member of Parliament, are you being investigated? I don't know is the answer to that. But the parliamentary investigation is not going to go away if he becomes an MP at the end, again at the end of the by election process. But the issues of Farage and money are not going to go away. And if anything, even though you're right, this is very Trumpian in saying, you know, let's create another drama over here and you go over there. That's true. But at the same time it also elevates the scrutiny that people want to give them. And I think you're right. By the way, I've been raging for ages about the extent to which they talk about two tier care in relation to policing. The only two tier that we really have in our political culture is in the way that the media have covered historically, people on the right of politics, particularly Farage, Very interesting to me. For example, one of the reasons he's losing the plot at the moment is because it was the Sunday Times that did this big thing at the weekend about so called Posh George, this guy George Cotterell, who's a kind of very weird, flamboyant, colorful gambling character, even when he got done for fraud in the United States. And I think was even with Farage, who was out there when he was nicked, a bit like Mark Rutter with Donald Trump. He says that Nigel Farage is like a father to him. Farage and he are very, very close. There's a picture which frankly, again, with a sort of serious grown up media landscape, this picture would be as well known as any other picture of modern times. It's Farage and Posh George and who's between them in the background? Nathan Gill, currently in jail for essentially being a Russian plant in the European Parliament. So the issue's not going to go away, but we're going to talk, as you say, about something different. There's going to be a race, there's going to be a by election and

[D]

the media reverts to form. You know, Alistair, the media loves a good horse race. So a lot of the political journalists who just recently finally started asking tough questions of Farage may go back to just talking about, is this a test for Andy Burnham? How will Labour do in the by election? What about Zach Polanski and the Greens? So it's very useful for Farage in that way. And I can't say this statistic enough Times. Nigel Farage has been on question time 38 times. The only person who's been on as many or more times than Nigel Farage is Michael Heseltine, who first appeared on Question Time in the late 1970s.

[A]

Right.

[D]

In those 38 times he was on Question Time, how many times was he asked about his finances?

[A]

When I was complaining, as I have done before, about the Question Time issue, I think I was told that Shirley Williams might have topped a lot of them, but I really, I thought it

[D]

was Heseltine versus either way, he's in the top two or three.

[A]

He's, he's definitely, he's definitely right.

[D]

Having not been an MP until very recently and having not. My bigger question is, does he ever get asked these questions? Why did it take so long? He was an MP, he was an MEP in 1999 in the European Parliament. He became famous in 2009 when UKIP did really well in those Euro elections. I remember it vividly. He did Brexit in 2016. He's been on the public scene for 15 years minimum, if not longer. Why has it taken so long to ask these very basic questions about who funds him, who are his allies, who does he hang out with?

[A]

Well, but again, partly Trumpian, they hide in plain sight the bad boys of Brexit, Aaron Banks. I mean, Aaron Banks was sort of scrutinized, at least to some extent. The Russian connections were being talked about. But I think what's so interesting about the Post Georgia story is that it is the Sunday Times, because the truth is that that says to me that the Murdoch press maybe is tiring of Nigel Farage. One hears that Christopher Harborne, the guy who's central to this story because he's the guy who gave £5 million to Farage that Farage said was just a little gift, nothing to see here. Then it was for his security, then it was a reward for Brexit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you hear, I hear from people, I don't know that many people in Farage's circle, but I know some, that he's getting really fed up that all this money is going into reform and into Farage, but actually it's not delivering a greater likelihood of Farage being Prime Minister because they worry that they peaked because yes, in a polarized, in a broken up political system, you don't need what you used to need to get a majority. But it doesn't look like Farage is going to be there. And then, of course, we'll talk about Andy Burnham later on. But Andy Burnham showing that you can beat reform in their own backyard, which is why Andy Burnham's become about to become Labour leader and Prime Minister. That's an added pressure. But I see, I watched. I'm sure lots of our listeners and viewers saw Nigel Farage coming back from America, where like every good, patriotic British person, he went to America to pay homage.

[D]

Him and Rupert Lowe.

[A]

Him and Rupert Lowe, they went to America to pay homage to the Americans for breaking free from the British king and taking back control rather better than they took back control with Brexit. And he comes back to Britain and he's doorstepped, as anybody in politics who's high profile, often is, by a guy with a camera who's asked a very straightforward question. Do you regret not declaring, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[D]

And he lost his shit.

[A]

He completely lost the plot. He. And he looked. I wondered when he announced he was doing this announcement today, I wondered whether it was going to be. To sort of talk about. And I know he talked a little bit about the harassment he comes under and honestly, the whingeing attached to that. I'm going to repeat this, I said it last week. But for this guy to say he's the most attacked politician in modern British history, when two MPs, one of them during the referendum, have literally been assassinated, you can fuck off with that.

[D]

Farage, you know where he gets that line from, right? I mean, Donald Trump says the same thing.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

Trump says exactly the same thing, that I'm the most hated, I'm the most attacked. No one's had it worse than me, even Lincoln, who was assassinated and killed. So it is very Trumpy. And he's not used to being doorstep, as you say. One thing I would say about a by election is it will give journalists an opportunity to spend more time with him out and about, because he has to go out and shake hands and kiss babies and knock on doors, so he won't be able to hide from the media in the same way he has.

[A]

You say that his announcement was covered wall to wall across all our TV channels. Okay. Now, I've got a vague feeling from my days in government, unless the BBC sort of guidelines have changed, you can't take the live feed from a political party. You know, for example, when you're doing a party conference, and quite often before the leader speech, you'll have a big video pumping up the crowd, whatever. The BBC and I think sky as well, they go to something else, because you don't cover feeds that are provided by a political party. They Took a feed from reform with no media in the room able to ask questions. So you say that a by election will expose into more media. It might well not. It might well not.

[D]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[A]

Because you're so what you do, this is Trumpian, you create yourself as the center of the story so much that the media is desperate just to get anything from you.

[D]

Yes, no, it's a very fair point. And when Donald Trump announced his war in Iran on February 28, Alastair, most presidents, I think all presidents taking American forces to war have done live address from the Oval Office, they've done a press conference. He did a pre taped announcement from Mar A Lago in a baseball cap. So there is again. Yeah, hiding from the media when tough questions need to be asked. But I'm saying, if he is out and about and reporters are in the vicinity, will they continue to ask about these donations or will they let it go? That is the fundamental question right now. My big critique of journalists on both sides of the Atlantic is when there's a big story, when there's a big scandal, you must focus on it. You must ask follow up questions, you must persist, you must not allow yourself to be deflected, diverted, distracted. You must keep going. And I think that's my number one criticism of interviewers right now.

[A]

Yeah, just, just to remind people of what happened in the Clacton election. So Farage was elected with 46.2% of the vote.

[D]

Not a majority. Not a majority.

[A]

Well, not. He didn't. He won the election and quite substantially, he got 21,225 votes. Giles Watling, the Tory, got 12,000, nearly 13,000. Labour came third, 7,500. And then so it went on. And I wonder whether there is a kind of a sort of public interest service to be done, saying, listen, mate, you've caused this by election. We're not going to waste loads of money on it. Maybe put up one candidate to take

[D]

him on, or maybe we asked Christopher harbor to pay for the by election, not the British taxpayers, because it costs a lot to run a by election.

[A]

Well, in a way he's caused it, hasn't he?

[D]

I just googled it while you were talking. David Davis in 2008 when he quit to run for this by election, this ridiculous, egomaniacal byelection, the Culture Secretary at the time said he should pay for it himself. And the Culture Secretary at the time was Andy Burnham. Just randomly, ooh, £80,000. £80,000 it cost to run that. That was 2008. I have no idea how much it cost to run a by election in 2026.

[A]

Yeah, you're talking. They're not the parties. You're talking about the public purse.

[D]

Yeah, I'm talking about. Yeah, the public cost of a by election.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So there we are. I think the, the point I was making about the, the doorstep you did with, with sky is he really looked on the edge. He really, really did look on the

[D]

edge for the first time.

[A]

Yeah. And, and so, and I wonder whether what's sort of driving him there is these thinking, well, if the, you know, if, if you got the Murdoch lot lining up against him, you know, he knows the Troys are against him, he knows labor against him, etc. I agree with you. I think Farage has had one of the easiest rides of any major political figure in modern times. He doesn't get asked difficult questions. He basically gets treated by the media more as a commentator than as a politician.

[D]

Yes. Sorry to keep banging the D.C. trump drum, but it's exactly the same here. The interviews with Trump, the press conferences. He's treated like a pundit, he's asked his opinion. I always say to American journalists, stop asking Trump opinion questions. Stop asking, Mr. President, do you agree with this or that? What's your take on what just happened? Ask him actual accountability questions. Did you do X? Why did you do X? There's evidence you did X. And I think that is a fundamental problem with the White House press corps, the Downing street press corps, Sunday morning show host in the us, whatever it is, BBC hosts there. Obviously you guys still do better interviews than the us. The US interview scene is horrifically bad. But with Farage, for some reason, as you say, this kind of affable. I'm the bloke down the pub. It's treating him as a question time panelist who gives his take on the stories of the day. And the defense always was, well, he's not a member of Parliament. Well, he's now. He has been for a while and he's now triggered this major by election. He's seen as the next prime minister, according to some polls. Ask him the hard questions. Be embarrassed that it took so long to ask about where his money's coming from. I just saw, I think, Gary Gibbons, Channel 4 News Report the other night, and they had footage from the reform HQ of Posh George, Posh George Cottrell wandering around, just taking phone calls. He's there. He was present. Why did it take so long to ask questions about this guy? Why did it Require a Sunday Times Insight investigation now.

[A]

Well, the answer is that most of people on the right have want. They wanted Brexit, the newspapers on the right wanted Brexit, and Farage was a big part of that. They wanted him in Parliament. They wanted to drag the Tory party further to the right. They've done that. They've now dragged it so far the center of gravity in the right wing of our politics, so far to the right that now even Nigel Farage is not right wing enough. And Rupert Lowe comes along even further to the right. So, listen, it's so funny, I'm getting so many people messaging me about what they think about this. I've got one person whose judgment I quite respect saying, think this is a really smart move. Other people saying, this is the next step, this is the next nail in his coffin. So this is what he does. He makes us all talk about him, think about him. But I think that there's some big questions here for the Tories. The Tories, I don't think, are yet settled on the strategy of whether they try to compete with Farage by being more like Viraj or whether they go for Farage. Yeah. So clearly you're right that people will say that, because right in the middle of this, at some point, Andy Burnham is going to become the Prime Minister. And this will be sort of, you know, part of the backdrop of that as well. So, look, it's an interesting move. I think it's a move born of desperation. I think it's a move born of his. Of his inability to withstand pretty limited gentle scrutiny by media that up to now has been far too tame with him. But I think he might get away with it. In Clacton, we did this whenever we did this miniseries, we with Cat Neal and the observer, about who funds reform, which I recommend to those who haven't listened to. You do have to become a member to listen to it. But what was interesting when Kat and I did a Q and A about it, which is available to all who listen wherever you get your podcasts. But she'd spend a lot of time in Clacton and she was basically saying that people didn't like this stuff about the money, but it wasn't necessarily shifting them. Now that's the thing that we'll have to see. Bit like in America. I can't believe that Trump making 2.2 billion doesn't make everybody think, why did I vote for this crook? Right. But it doesn't seem to be happening at the pace that you and I might think that it should.

[D]

You would hope that the UK is not the US still on these issues and that shame still matters and that decency still matters and that anti corruption still matters. Obviously, Farage doesn't have the Donald Trump I'm a businessman excuse that Trump and his sons have wheeled out for their crypto fortunes. Farage is slightly different. Right, Alastair? He's not getting this money as a result of investing investments. He's getting his money as gifts, or what he claims are gifts.

[A]

He's getting money from all sorts of places. I mean, look, as somebody says, you know, if you would, if you're willing to do a cameo saying, up to the Raw for age, for 80 quid, what might you do for 5 million? I mean, he's got all sorts of money. You know, he's got this, this bullion company that he promotes.

[D]

He's Alistair. I'm just looking at the numbers. He got 46.2% of the vote in 2024. If he gets less than that, is that bad? Is that going to be seen as a defeat if his vote share goes down? Because you got the Greens now as a force that they weren't in 2024.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Because in the end, this is the great thing about violations is why, you know, Makerfield was suddenly being talked about around the world. I mean, I literally was getting vocals from Australia television. Could I come on to talk about what Bakerfield is like?

[D]

John Oliver did a whole segment on it on HBO here in the us.

[A]

He did, yeah, exactly. So. And now the people of Clacton will. Now their views will matter. So do they want a by election? I'll tell you, the thing that Kat said was really, really interesting. And this will go to the heart of the by election. This is where the other parties really should go for. There were a lot of people saying to Katton that the guy's never here. He spends more time in America than Clacton. That was damaging more than he's in the. You know, he's a puppet of Putin or, you know, he's too close to Trump or whatever. I think the Trump thing's a problem, by the way. I do think that his. And it's interesting, you know, why did he go to America? Why did he go to America for the independence when he's got all this stuff going on around him? Answer. Because that's where he feels happier. Yes, that's the politics that he believes in.

[D]

Alistair, when he says, you know, he does, he's in because I don't want to be prime minister. I've never plotted it from Oxbridge, like Boris Johnson and others. I actually kind of believe him. I don't think he has massive ambitions

[A]

to be prime minister.

[D]

Well, in the sense of, obviously he wants power, but I think he'd be just as comfortable doing a Fox News primetime show, making a ton of money and hanging out with people who are sycophants as being Prime Minister. It's like when Donald Trump won the presidency. He didn't really want it in 2016. He was running in 2016 because he wanted to build a TV network. He wanted the attention. He didn't expect to beat Hillary Clinton. Now, obviously, it's a very different situation 10 years later. He's a professional politician and loves it. But I think these people, as you say, they are very happy in these other scenes, in these other walks of life.

[A]

Look, I, I, I've watched him doing this shtick. You know, I know I never wanted to be prime minister. I came into politics to make a difference. He's not to be prime minister. Oh, yeah, that's, yeah, it's, it's, he might not have come into politics to be prime minister, but now that it sort of looks like it could happen, I think he's absolutely gagging for it. And I think saying that is part of the shtick. Yes, that gets him there and, but so I think the Clacton thing will be interesting. I think, I think if I don't know how the other party is going to handle this. I wonder whether it is worth labor just saying, look, Tories came second last time around. This is, this is basically about the politics, the psychodrama and the politics of the right. Let them all just fight it out. I don't know. It's gonna be very, very interesting, this, but it's, I do think this is born of weakness rather than strength. And that is never a good place to start a campaign, but we'll see how it goes. Look, I mentioned Andy Burn. We've got loads of questions this week about Keir Starmer. He's off to, I mean, I, I can't help feeling sorry for Gestava. He put out a video yesterday. He put out a video visiting the, the motorbike riders who give the Prime Minister there. And he was there thanking them for looking after him for the last two years. He's now off to, he's now gone to Turkey for the, for what would clearly be his last NATO summit. So that's going on. And Andy Burnham. There's now been so much sort of focus on what Andy Burnham think. So let's just get a few questions of this Izzy back to the media. How much was Starmer defeated by a media landscape he didn't understand or perform well in? And can Burnham get his messaging right and keep the press at bay? How much do you think Keir Starmer's downfall was due to media communication? All this other stuff that we talked about.

[D]

Before I answer that question, let me agree disagreeably with you.

[A]

You're disagreeing agreeably?

[D]

Yeah. That'd be weird. If I agreed in a disagreeable way, that'd just be contrary.

[A]

I totally agree with you, you bastard.

[D]

I totally agree with you, you bastard.

[A]

Right, I know you're right on Starmer.

[D]

You know, there's a lot of these political overts being written. A decent man brought down by media. I want to talk about the media in a moment. But before then, he did a lot of things that suggest he was not a decent man. October 11, 2023. A lot of us will not forget that LBC interview where he was asked, does Israel have the right to block power, water, food going into Gaza? He said, israel does have that right. He later walked that back, but not after they didn't spend 24, 48 hours defending the line. He then obviously did support Israel during this genocide. He did crack down on vicars and old ladies, women and children peacefully protesting the genocide. Rounded them up en masse. I don't think that was a decent thing to do. He did lie in order to become Labour leader. I'm sorry, there's been multiple U turns, things he promised to do and didn't do. So I'm not sure I buy this line that he was just some decent dude who, you know, fell afoul of a horrible right wing media. Having said that, clearly any labor leader is up against a Murdoch press, a right wing press, and now these tech giants. Let's not forget Elon Musk's role in British politics. A big role. I think any leader, wherever they are on the political spectrum, if they are labor leader, if they are Prime Minister of the UK right now. And Andy Burnham will feel it very, very quickly, if he isn't already, is up against this kind of transnational hard right coalition of tech bosses and activists and media organizations and online pundits. And even there was that Russian politician who was like, we did this.

[A]

We brought down Starmer and Dmitriev.

[D]

Yeah, that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Mertz is next. We do live in this age where social media and the algorithms are able to foment a lot of division. A lot of people. Look, I can state the reasons why I don't like Keir Starmer, but I bet there's a lot of people who can't state those reasons and they don't quite know why they're supposed to hate Starmer. And I think that might be a lot to do with the social media and media diet that they get. And clearly he was his own worst enemy. I don't know how he was Director of Public Prosecutions, how he was a top barrister, because he's one of the worst speakers I've ever seen in modern British public life. Like, no charisma, wooden speaking habit, no humor, no ability to engage or persuade. Look, you don't all have to be Tony Blair in your delivery, but you have to be someone who can engage with the public and go over the heads of the media, use the bully pulpit, as they call it here in the United States. And he didn't do that at all.

[A]

There's a very, very interesting analysis, but he's slightly provoked by something where you, I think, slightly misunderstood what I was saying. I felt sorry for him, him that he has to go on this kind of farewell tour to say thank you to all of these people.

[D]

I did miss that.

[A]

And that then has to go and be the Prime Minister to summit when everybody else is sitting there thinking you're not going to be here next time, and therefore it doesn't matter.

[D]

But even then, I don't feel sorry for him. Have a little bit of humiliation. Have a little bit of humiliation. I have no problem with that.

[A]

Okay, okay. And also, I do. I do think he's a much more likable guy than his public image. Oh, that's true.

[D]

That's true. That's the media. There's definitely a media role. And I think Andy Burnham is supposed to be this great northern white knight, talks like a normal person, is a, you know, is a communicator. I think that's all gonna change very quickly. You watch, the media narrative about Burnham will change very fast.

[A]

That's what I think the question relates to, is whether. You see, I think you, you know, I know we've discussed this before. You think we went too far back in the day in taming the Murdoch press. Trying to get the right wing papers to be less vile than sucking up

[D]

to the Murdoch press. Alistair, I would say that' you would call it.

[A]

I know, but we were taming a beast and keeping a very nasty animal in the corner of the room.

[D]

Sorry, Alistair, just. I've got. No, sorry. If that was the case. If that was the case, I have one very simple question. Why, after leaving office, did your old boss carry on sucking up to those people if it was just a political move?

[A]

Well, I. I stopped working for my old boss and being his spokesman. Long time ago. Many so. And he's not here to defend himself, is he?

[D]

I think the listeners can work out the answer there, very clear.

[A]

Look, I do still defend my boss for all sorts of things, but I think. I think sometimes he does have a fondness for these people that are. Well, to the right of him. Well to the right of me. And, you know, he likes being around with very, very powerful people, as do

[D]

a lot of politicians, unfortunately. You saw the recent Spectator summer party where all the label always turn up to kind of, you know, kiss the rings of the people in padding. Starmer went again. And I just find that all very. Even when I worked in the British press corps, when I was. Worked in the lobby, I always found that very distasteful.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't invited this year, which may be something to do with the way we interviewed Michael Grove. I don't know. On the point about Andy Burnham, though, where you're absolutely right, is that it's going to go. You watch. Elon Musk will forget who Keir Starmer is in no time at all. He will direct his kind of algorithmic hate towards Andy Burnham, Friedrich Merz, whoever stands up against Le Pen or Bardella in the French election. That's what's going to happen.

[D]

100.

[A]

So the question then. The question then is, what's the best way to deal with it before you sort of, you know, attacked my integrity and impugned my entire career in the way that you did by saying, we call it sucking up. Strategic management of a difficult enemy is how I would frame it. But there we are.

[D]

I thought you were a plain speaker, Alistair. I went for the simpler description.

[A]

Okay. Okay. And I. I understand why you. You say it. I understand why you say it, but the point is, we were trying to tame an enemy, by the way.

[D]

I'm not saying you weren't. I'm just saying it was also Satan.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And we did it in the way that we did it. Okay? Now, the landscape that Andy Burnham is going to inherit is even more complicated. The one that we had. So here's a question for you, for example, you talk. We talk a lot about Musk. We all talk. We understand this kind of the way that his mind works. The. I think he's a fascist. The algorithm, the way that it works. Some of the other people around him that are vile social media. Starmer wants to ban it for under 16 year olds, therefore they hate him even more. Yes, I thought it was interesting. Last week the Culture Secretary, Lisa Nandi came off X finally. Do you think that maybe Andy Burnham should instruct the entire government just to say we can't support and be part of something that is so divisive, vile, neo fascistic.

[D]

I'm surprised, Alistair, that you're offering such a tame solution.

[A]

No, no, I'm going one by one.

[D]

But I just think it's so ridiculous that Lisa Nandi pulling off of X, it's like, oh, you know, I've got to leave this platform because it's become so toxic. Well, you're the Culture Secretary. Do something about it.

[A]

Don't just quit the platform.

[D]

You know, this whole thing of, you know that meme. We're all trying to find the person who did this. You're the regulator, you're the British government. Pulling off of X is just a weird thing to do. The thing to do is actually exercise your muscle. Instead of going after pro Palestine protesters streets and rounding up little old ladies and vicars, why don't you go after the world's richest. Okay, why don't you have him open up his algorithm? Why don't you hold him to account for some of the stuff that they're putting out there? There's many tools in the British government toolbox. They rather use them against pro Palestine protesters than this right wing billionaire oligarch.

[A]

Okay. And while I was doing, Mehdi was going through a series of proposals. I was going to put you. That was the first one. Would you, if you were Andy Burnham coming in, say that the development of GB News to the place in the media landscape, it now is a reflection on the utter failure of Ofcom. And therefore Ofcom has to be put up for a complete recalibration. Okay, we agree on that. And would you revisit Levison too?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

So. So, okay, so we agreed. And that's where we look at the relation between the press and the police.

[D]

I say this all the time. I can't say enough. I'll say on every appearance you have me on, which is you have to fight fire with fire. You cannot just sit back and play defense. You must go on the offense. You must change some of the structures of power in this country. If you're going to be a center left or a left or Even a centrist prime minister. You cannot accept the status quo as it is currently structured when it comes to politics, when it comes to the media. I mean, just again, look at what the right does. Donald Trump comes into office, appoints his underling, his sycophant, Brendan Carr, as head of the fcc. The guy wears like a gold Trump badge on his lapel. He's supposed to be an independent regulator of the media, and he promptly goes after all of Donald Trump's media enemies. Right? So that is what the right does. You don't have to go that far. But the idea that you wouldn't look again at Ofcom or Levison or Twitter X, whatever you want to call it, I think would be absurd. You need to understand who your enemies are. And I think labor leaders and center left leaders more broadly, Joe Biden have never quite understood who their enemies are. You need to identify your enemy, your opponent, and you need to be able to take what steps are necessary to defeat that opponent. Learn some lessons from the right, please.

[A]

Well, we've ended up violently agreeing, agreeing disagreeably. Well, we're agreeing agreeably now. We were disagreeable in times, but mainly agreeing agreeably. But no, I felt this for some time. I do think that for all that, the legitimate criticism that people can make of Keir Starmer and mistakes and lack of planning and preparation, all that other stuff and charisma, they can say all that. But the truth is, I think he did walk into an economic landscape that was genuinely much tougher than he thought, a geopolitical landscape that was much tougher, certainly when we were in power, but also a media landscape which you can only thrive in if you are actually dominant within it. And I'm afraid that is where you don't just fight fire with fire. You have to learn a little bit from the way that Trump has managed to do that in the way that he's done it in the States.

[D]

And can I just say on the policy front, because we often talk about politics just as messaging and communications. Obviously, I'm a journalist. You were a very famous director of communications. It is more than that. Right. It is also what you stand for. What is your vision? What are you offering people? The problem is people couldn't really identify what Starmer stood for. I see the Downing street and the Labour Party publishing lots of lists of, of everything. He did all these good things. He did do good things. No one's denying he did some good things. But that's not how politics works. You can't still have a list of things you need to actually have a clear, very vision, define yourself before your opponents define. You have very clear, big policies that are going to change people's lives. We're hearing briefings about, you know, he's going to bring capital gains tax in line with income tax. We're hearing things about public control of utilities. That's fine, but, you know, halfway houses will not work. We need to actually hear from Burnham as to what he's actually going to do. And on the geopolitical scene, let's not forget labor of hemorrhage votes to the Greens because of Gaza. Let's not dance around that. A lot of the obits of Keir Starmer in the BBC, even in the Guardian, I think, just didn't mention Gaza. Absurdly, that was a huge issue for labor voters and people who ditched his party. A lot of polling has shown that a lot of people have gone to the Greens and the Lib Dems because of Gaza. What's Andy Burnham gonna do on that front? We haven't really heard much. So I think we're gonna have to address some of these big issues very early on because people will make make up their minds very quickly.

[A]

They will, they will. And the first big moves will be incredibly important. And thus far, he's, he's handled himself pretty well. He's shown a real ruthlessness.

[D]

I think people on the left are a little worried about the James Pannell Chief of Staff appointment. We'll see how that pans out.

[A]

Ah, well, honestly, I think that is. I. I don't think that's a big deal at all. I think that is real inside the Beltway stuff. I really do. We could be, could be wrong.

[D]

Just to be devil's advocate, people might have said that about Morgan McSweeney, and it turned out not to be a Beltway issue.

[A]

Turned out to be. That's true, that's true, that's true, that's true. But anyway, look, the point I was going to make about Andy Burnham is that the first impressions are incredibly important. And I mean first impressions at every stage, like the first PMQs, the first big speech, the first big conference, the first big foreign visit, they're all very, very important. And thus far, I think he's handled himself pretty well. I think it's quite an achievement, by the way, to become leader and Prime Minister through an act of pretty profound ruthlessness. And yet part of the imaging and part of the sort of chatter is he's a really nice bloke, he's much more personable. Than Keir Starmer. That's pretty. You gotta raise your hat a little bit to that.

[D]

If only Gordon Brown had had those eyelashes and a black T shirt, he could have done a much better job of defenestrating your old boss.

[A]

Well, I once went. Was once back in my journalist days. This is imagining Gordon Brown in a vest, black T shirt situation. Gordon was being interviewed by Fiona for a magazine and we went up to spend the weekend with them in, in Scotland. And the photographer at one point said to, to Gordon, do you think you could put something on a bit more casual? Gordon went through to his bedroom and came back in a different tie.

[D]

Did you see him in a shirt the other day getting ice cream?

[A]

Yeah, I did. In the football? Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the. With the best fans in the world. I think Norway are trying to run the Scots fans close, but I think Scotland just about go sick.

[D]

I'm gonna be sad to see England defeat Norway on Saturday because I have a soft spot for the Norwegians, but they must lose.

[A]

Okay, okay, well, let's just see how it all pans out.

[D]

Surely you want them to lose too, Alistair.

[A]

What? But why are you asking these difficult questions of me?

[D]

You don't support England.

[A]

I've supported Scotland all my life.

[D]

Come on, you've got to support England this Saturday, Alistair.

[A]

I was impressed by their win against Mexico. I actually do think this group of players have got some exceptional role models amongst them. I loved the fact that Bellingham, here's another media poet when he was going through the so called mixed zone. I don't know if you saw this was absolutely beautiful. There's this guy who I think was in a wheelchair. He's in Venezuela.

[D]

He stopped to chat too much Spanish

[A]

and he shouted out, bellingham, I'm from Venezuela. And he went and chatted to him in Spanish. I think Harry Kane's an exceptional role model. He slightly went down in my estimation when I heard that he played golf with Donald Trump.

[D]

Same, same. I was like, no, no, not you, Harry.

[A]

No. As Donald Trump said, I'm thinking maybe it's not true. That's true. But I interviewed Harry Kane a while back for. I think it was for the Evening Standard magazine. And I was actually really impressed by him. And you know, I watched the one of England. I watched England's game against Dr. Congo in France. And what was really interesting was the French commentators were talking about Harry Kane in the way that our commentators talk about Messi and Ronaldo and Mbappe. They. And I don't think because of his image because he's not controversial and he's not glamorous and he doesn't have loads of tattoos and he doesn't sort of, you know, spend his time all over the front pages of the Sunday tabloids. I think we underestimate just how good he is in the eyes of the, the rest of the world. This is all a long winded way of saying, I'm still not over Scotland being knocked out in the way that they were, but I wish the English all the best. All the best.

[D]

I'll take it. I'll take it.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Let's take a break then. I want to talk about faith. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds Premier. Life for many people is very complex and the political goings on in the world do not make it any easier. Trust in institutions, trust in politics, trust in business. It's hard to find.

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[D]

Hello, the Rest is Politics listeners. It's Gordon and David here from the Rest is Classified. And we've got an exclusive preview of our latest series on the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.

[C]

A Russian security service officer is living in London with his wife and son when he suddenly falls seriously ill. He has been poisoned using a rare and highly radioactive toxin.

[B]

But who gave the orders and why?

[A]

In our latest series, we investigate the

[D]

mysterious murder of former KGB officer Alexander

[C]

Litvinenko in a sinister plot that goes all the way to the top of the Russian state. We delve into the murky circumstances leading up to Litvinenko's death and how foreign agents pulled off an audacious murder on British soil. One which put the entire population of London in serious danger.

[D]

This is a story of personal tragedy

[B]

and of cloak and dagger espionage, but also political conspiracy.

[D]

Litvinenko's murder sheds light on the cost

[B]

of speaking out in Putin's Russia, but also the extent to which the British

[A]

state has been willing to suppress the

[B]

truth to maintain its political relationships.

[C]

To hear the full series, listen to the rest is classified. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[A]

Welcome back to the Reciprocal. It's Question Time with me, Alistair Campbell,

[D]

and me, Mehdi Hassan in Washington, D.C.

[A]

here's one from Mohammed. How does your faith drive the work you do? I'm assuming that question is directed at you because famously, as they say, I don't do God. So how does your faith drive the work you do? You're a Muslim.

[D]

Well, it's interesting. Right now it affects my work in one very singular way, which is wherever I go, wherever I speak about politics, trump the threat to democracy, the rise of fascism, I get the genocide in the Middle East. I get asked by live audience, I do a lot of live events and I get asked by audiences wherever I go in the US who have deeply depressed, deeply pessimistic about the future. They say, how do you keep hope alive? How do you stay hopeful, Mary? How do you get out of bed in the morning and still fight the good fight? And that is an answer I give based around faith, which is, I'm a very pessimistic person. I'm not an optimist. My wife and kids will tell you I'm negative about everything. I'm like, oh, it's going to be a shitty day, although it's going to rain.

[A]

I'm very going to win.

[D]

No, England are going to win. That's different. But, but, but optimism is not the same thing as hope. I'm not an optimistic person, but I am a hopeful person because I'm a person of faith. And my faith teaches me that we must stay in the struggle even when we cannot see light at the end of the tunnel. We must keep fighting to try and see that light. There's a great line from Desmond Tutu at the height of the Antioch apartheid struggle, Archbishop Tudor, who said, you know, hope is being able to see the light despite all the darkness. It's not the absence of darkness, it's being able to see it despite it. And for me, that's what God and faith means to me. So at a time when I'm deeply pessimistic about the state of the world, every, every day, I have to cover this show with Trump and With Netanyahu and all these people, that is what keeps me going.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting. I find myself, I was watching the Pope who famously said he didn't want to go to the 250th anniversary celebrations because he was going to Lampedusa to spend time with immigrants and the poor. And I watched him do that, and I felt very moved by that. Then I read about his excommunication of this very kind of right wing sect within the Catholic Church. I found that very interesting. I think one of the things that's very underwritten about Andy Burnham thus far, it will at some point come. But Andy's faith, I think, is very, very important. He's a Catholic. Catholic, and he's a practicing Catholic. And I think it is a big part of his. Of his politics.

[D]

Maybe he'll. Maybe he'll bond with President Vance over it, who's.

[A]

Oh, please.

[D]

Who's a very public Catholic right now. In fact, he converted to Catholicism and now lectures the Pope on what Catholicism.

[A]

I know, I know. And he's written it. But should I read this book that he's written about his conversion? Well, he's an interesting figure. And you don't think I should read it at all?

[D]

I mean, you can if you want to. I would.

[A]

Yeah. But you're not going to. No. Okay.

[D]

He's a fraud.

[A]

Okay. Right. This is a very, very quick question from Joey. Explain your personal politics in three words or less. Joey, it should be three words or fewer. I'm sorry I'm a pedant, but. So matey's your politics in three words or fewer.

[D]

Justice, always, forever. I think my politics are all about justice. It's all about fighting for fairness.

[A]

Okay. I think I'm gonna say liberte, fraterte, fraternite, egalite. I'm just going to say left of center. Just be on the left of center is where.

[D]

It's a very modest answer there.

[A]

I know. I agree. And final question from Ali, which is not me. How much do you both enjoy arguing for the sake of it? Do you like a good argument just because you can have it?

[D]

I love arguing. I wrote a book about arguing. I literally wrote a book called Win Every Argument.

[A]

I'm plugging his books out. Yeah, we all didn't read it.

[D]

Yeah, plugging the book. I'm plugging Zatao uk, which launched last month in the uk. I'm plugging Win Every Argument. I wrote a book about arguing. That's how much I love arguing. It's a real problem for my Wife and kids for friends and family.

[A]

Do you argue with them all the time?

[D]

I do. I mean, I lose arguments for my wife, as is the case, but. But I do enjoy arguing. Is a problem for me in my personal life because people get fed up with me. But it has helped me in my professional life. I literally got to where I am because I love to argue.

[A]

All right, Mehdi. Well, as you're in plugging mode, I'm going to do a plug as well, but not for me. This week, Rory has got another AI deep dive for members. On Friday, you'll be able to hear his conversation with Michael Bakker and Alex Petropoulos. These are two authors of a pretty astonishing report which sets out what's at stake for a Europe that fails to take the AI race seriously. They are both adamant that Europe will become essentially irrelevant to politically and economically if things don't change. As ever, Rory and Matt Clifford are asking them some pretty tough questions. If you want to hear that, sign up and the restispolitics.com. no, I like a good argument and it's not for the sake of it. My daughter Grace, who's a comedian, she does a very, very funny sketch based on true stories about times when she's had to drag me away from people because she's worried it's getting close to violence. Because I do feel things very, very deeply. And when I'm arguing with somebody whose views I really, really, really profoundly disrespect, I feel this kind of boiling rage inside me. Rory has done.

[D]

You stabbed your hand with a needle during the. Was it Hutton Inquiry or one of the Iraq inquiries?

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[D]

Not normal.

[A]

No, it wasn't. It wasn't that. It was the select committee. It was a select committee inquiry. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal to stick a pin

[D]

in your hand to keep your anger under control.

[A]

No, it wasn't to keep my anger under control. It was to remind myself that my strategy at this select committee hearing was not. Not to let them wind me up that morning. Being a very good father, the aforementioned Grace, who was then not a comedian, but a child, a young child. I was no further. Night before, I was giving her a bath and she had this little thing called pingu, okay, which had a beak. Okay? So I thought, what I'll do. A lawyer had said to me, if you feel you're temper rising, just have something in your hand and squeeze it into the palm of your hand and it will stop. I forgot the bloody pingu. Okay? So when I got to the court. When I got to the inquiry, I had a. I put a paper clip in my hand instead of. But because the paperclip gets all squishy if, you know, I, I made it straight and wrapped it around my finger and then I pulled it. And then I, I did notice suddenly that blood was pouring out my hand.

[D]

Yeah, I think I mentioned that in my book. In the arguing book, I meant. I think I mentioned that incident with you.

[A]

Two plugs. Two plugs.

[D]

This one involved you. I plugged you being in the book.

[A]

Okay, there you go.

[D]

But I do enjoy. Look, it's not either or. I do enjoy good argument. But at the same time, I do believe argument is genuinely the lifeblood of our democracy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And right now in both, particularly in the United States, but also in other parts of the world and dangerously here, I think if we had a very, very right wing libertarian style government, freedom of speech would become freedom to say the things they want you to say. And that's not lifeblood democracy. Well, Mehdi, it's been great to have you. This is the end of question time and then tomorrow our listeners and viewers will get the delight of us having this flipped week where we'll have the main podcast where we're going to be talking about USA 25, 250 years on. We're going to be talking about football and the World cup because you and I, unlike Rory, are big football fans. We'll be talking about the politics of football and we're going to also talk about the media role of media in democracy, with a particular focus on lots of interesting stuff that's going on in Germany. Thank you. Look forward to it.