Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics — "A Deal With the Devil? Murdoch and New Labour (Part 2)"

Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Alastair Campbell (“A”) & Rory Stewart (“B”)
Theme:
In this episode, Campbell and Stewart dissect Rupert Murdoch’s deepening involvement with British politics from the late 20th century, focusing on his relationships with Margaret Thatcher and, later, New Labour. They investigate how Murdoch wielded influence, manipulated the political-media nexus, and reshaped the landscape of British journalism and power.

Episode Overview

This second installment of the Murdoch miniseries delves into:

• The mutual exploitation between Murdoch and Margaret Thatcher
• Murdoch's motivations in acquiring both tabloids and broadsheets
• The “deal” with New Labour and Tony Blair
• How Murdoch's quest for influence blurred lines with government
• The fate of editorial independence at The Times under Murdoch

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Murdoch and the Thatcher Era

Mutual Use of Power

• Stewart compares Murdoch’s figure to the “King Kong” of media, emphasizing his insatiable appetite for power and competition (00:13).
• Campbell: "If you can get The Sun, then that was gonna be politically helpful." (00:30)
• Both agree Thatcher’s alliance with Murdoch was calculated: she needed tabloid muscle, he needed a political shield and a pathway into the establishment (00:41–01:00).

Political Philosophy & Opportunism

• Stewart: "Murdoch is not really a Thatcherite at this point... he becomes a Thatcherite because Thatcher is articulating what he may sense, but he hasn't gotten to that point yet... but it's also good copy." (02:52–03:28)

Why the Broadsheets?

• Stewart questions Murdoch’s purchase of The Times, a paper counter to his working-class tabloid ethos, speculating whether motives were influence, prestige, or personal paradox (04:30–05:21).
• Campbell responds that controlling both the tabloid (The Sun) and the broadsheet (The Times) would give Murdoch a “very, very powerful megaphone” to reach both the masses and the establishment (05:21).

Personal Taste vs. Public Persona

• Stewart: "His character is much more Times-like than Sun-like. He is not a Sun reader personally... No interest in sport. None. No interest in pop culture. None." (05:57–06:19)
• Both agree that Murdoch’s insider passion is gossip — but only the political and business kind.

Establishment: Belonging vs. Rebellion

• Stewart asserts Murdoch is “obsessed with this idea... He doesn’t want to be part of it, he wants to reject it. But... he thinks the establishment is inauthentic. Because he is the establishment.” (07:02–07:05)

The Takeover of The Times & Editorial Freedom

The Deal and Its Meaninglessness

• The hosts detail Thatcher’s role in avoiding a Monopolies and Mergers Commission referral, thus smoothing Murdoch’s path to ownership (07:39).
• Campbell highlights the paper’s prestige and the legendary editorship of Harry Evans, noting Murdoch wanted Evans involved mainly to avoid opposition: “I think Harry was aching to believe, but very quickly established that probably Murdoch didn’t want him to, had never really wanted him and pushed him out.” (08:34–09:11)

Notable Quote: The Futility of Trusting Murdoch

• Campbell, quoting Murdoch’s cousin Ranald MacDonald: “Everyone thinks they can be the one to get him to behave, to stick to doing what he said he would. I played with him as a boy. I know him. It will never work.” (10:23)

Editorial Interference: The Broken Promise

• Stewart: "He goes into the Times deal dependent on him saying he will not interfere editorially. Now let's just... in hindsight..." (11:02)
• Campbell describes how, despite legal undertakings not to interfere, Murdoch did so from “day one,” changing editorials and overriding agreements (11:17–12:16):
  • “I give instructions to my editors all around the world, so why shouldn’t I in London?... They're not worth the paper they're written on.”

Institutional Impunity

• Stewart: “So he does this. He violates every aspect of this. This agreement is thrown out immediately... Thirty years later, he will make the same agreement with the Wall Street Journal.” (12:16–12:43)
• Campbell: “...it signals to her cabinet and the rest of the political establishment, this guy has to be treated differently. And of course, that's something that he'll exploit many times...” (12:43)
• They note Thatcher used her power to shield Murdoch, creating an aura of untouchability: Murdoch was now a political necessity (13:37–13:42).

The System: Symbiotic Corruption?

• Stewart: “She’s currying favor with Murdoch.” (13:42)
• Campbell: “She’s using him, and he’s using her.” (13:45)
• Both hosts describe this relationship as politically optimal for both: “If you’re Murdoch... or Thatcher.” (13:55–13:57)
• Both comfort themselves: “We're not doing anything wrong. Because she would say, I’m not giving him anything on policy… she’s thinking, that's politics. He's thinking, I give her the support.” (13:57–14:20)
• Stewart: “So everybody is working the system... they're creating the system.” (14:20–14:24)

Murdoch as “the New Establishment”

• Stewart: "The man who has existed in opposition to the establishment is creating a new system, therefore a new establishment." (14:26)
• Campbell: “And they're all convincing themselves that they are insurgents and they're agents of change. And in many ways they are. Okay, Thatcher was an agent of change. You can hate it, but she was.” (14:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If you can get The Sun, then that was gonna be politically helpful."
  — Alastair Campbell (00:30)
• "Murdoch is a man of method, a cold-eyed manipulator. Everyone thinks they can be the one to get him to behave, to stick to doing what he said he would. It will never work."
  — Alastair Campbell (01:00 / quoting Ranald MacDonald at 10:23)
• “His character is much more Times-like than Sun-like. He is not a Sun reader personally.”
  — Rory Stewart (05:57)
• "He goes into the Times deal dependent on him saying he will not interfere editorially... He violated every aspect of this."
  — Rory Stewart (11:02–12:16)
• “They're creating... the system. The man who has existed in opposition to the establishment is creating a new system, therefore a new establishment.”
  — Rory Stewart (14:24–14:26)

Important Timestamps

• 00:13 — Murdoch's King Kong persona & dual moral role
• 01:00 — Campbell’s intro to Murdoch as “a man of method, a cold-eyed manipulator”
• 02:52–03:28 — Stewart on Murdoch’s shifting ideologies and media pragmatism
• 04:30–05:21 — Why Murdoch wanted The Times
• 05:57–06:19 — Murdoch’s personality vs. his tabloid empire
• 07:02–07:05 — Battle with establishment and identity
• 08:34–09:11 — The Harry Evans saga: Trust and broken promises
• 10:23 — Ranald MacDonald on Murdoch’s unreliability
• 11:02–12:16 — Editorial interference: The myth of non-involvement
• 13:42–14:26 — Systemic creation: Thatcher & Murdoch’s mutually beneficial pact

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is witty, frank, and layered with deep insider insight. Campbell and Stewart combine political analysis with rich anecdotes, skepticism, and a measure of rueful cynicism. Their mutual respect allows for nuance and disagreement—modeling the “lost art of disagreeing agreeably.” Ultimately, they depict Murdoch as both a disruptive force and a deft manipulator of the old order, and themselves as witnesses—and, sometimes, unwitting players—in a far bigger political-media drama.

For the full story and further commentary—especially on New Labour and Blair—listen to the full episode.