Michael Wolff (2:20)

Hacking would bring him down?

Alastair Campbell (2:22)

I thought it had the capacity to, not necessarily because of the crime itself but because of their catastrophic handling of it, I mean, I can't remember what some were up to, but they're into the hundreds of millions in terms of the cost already now, in a sort of multi billion company, that may not be so much. But I thought reputationally, if you can match the reputational damage to the financial damage, I could see that it might have done. And I thought the. His appearance at the Select Committee, when Wendy Deng probably first entered public consciousness here in a big way, because when the guy somehow smuggled through parliamentary security, accustomed, whatever it was, and of course, in a weird sort of way, I think that sort of helped Murloc in a bit because that's what people remember about it. And then they remember Wendy standing up and prepared to take this guy on, whereas James, who's sitting there looking like a bit of a kind of wet fish, doesn't quite know what to do.

Michael Wolff (3:17)

No. And actually because the marriage is breaking up at that point, although no one knows it, so Murdoch is pissed and that she comes out looking like the hero.

Alastair Campbell (3:29)

I think the moment of maximum, maximum vulnerability was this revelation which really shocked people because once it was, when it was people like me and John Prescott and Hugh Grant, political people, celebrities, they probably didn't really care when it was.

Michael Wolff (3:45)

Important or they thought you deserved it.

Alastair Campbell (3:47)

Or that we deserved it, Michael, because we'd sold out Rupert Murdoch, which I'm grateful that you've retracted that statement. Earlier, when it emerged that Millie Dowler, this who'd been murdered and others who'd been kidnap victims and children who'd been abducted, that they were actually hacking the phones of murdered children to find out whatever. You got to one point where Millie Dowler's parents, at this stage didn't know she was dead, were phoning and leaving messages to the extent that with all the other messages going on there, the voice box ended up being full. And the reason this was so horrific is because her parents are out of their minds with worry. They're phoning constantly, leaving messages and they get this message that the mailbox is full and then they keep phoning and after a while they can leave a message. So they think, oh my God, she's deleting her messages. That's great. That means she's alive. So this actually leads them to think she's alive. And that I think is what really cuts through to the public and thinks, you people are really, really bad. And that's what led to David Cameron, who people felt had been very soft on Murdoch for the obvious reasons, political Chipping Norton Et cetera. That's what led to Cameron saying we have to have this inquiry into press ethics. And that was the Leveson Inquiry.

Michael Wolff (5:11)

No, I mean, that's the point at which this story becomes, I mean, it becomes horrific. You know, the point is celebrities and politicians, well, maybe you do have something to hide and maybe they should find it out. But suddenly we're in this territory of hacking people who have nothing. I mean, they have. No, this is not. There is no news value here. This is just human suffering that tabloids make some of their living on.

Alastair Campbell (5:44)

And it emerges they've been doing, doing it to British soldiers who've been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan to find out what their families are saying and doing. Bombing victims in the 77 London bombings. The mother of another murder victim, an eight year old girl called Sarah Payne. So this is just off the scale. James Murdoch resigns.

Michael Wolff (6:03)

James is not only, not only resigns, he's basically forced out because, and certainly within the company they believe that he may be arrested and they have to get him out of the country as fast as possible.

Alastair Campbell (6:16)

Right. Andy Coulson is then arrested in July 2011. He's charged, he's convicted, he goes to prison. He's the only one of this whole escapade of the senior management that goes to prison. Rebecca Brooks, as we've said earlier, she was charged but not convicted. And including her husband, who was also charged because there was laptops going missing, usual stuff. Then we have this committee appearance. They were obviously trained out of their, you know, they were media trained like to the nth degree. But I don't think they really did themselves much good at that. Rebecca Brooks is then arrested July 2011. But she gets off now.

Michael Wolff (6:57)

But she goes through a long trial, a long, you know, and it, it's, you know, I sat through that trial actually. I, I got, got held in contempt for that trial because.

Alastair Campbell (7:06)

Why I.

Michael Wolff (7:07)

Because you. British laws are kind of.

Alastair Campbell (7:10)

What did you do?

Michael Wolff (7:11)

I just wrote something. Apparently you're not allowed to.

Alastair Campbell (7:15)

Well, you're allowed to write about it. Tell me what was you. You know, what education do we have to give you now, Michael? What, what, what do you do?

Michael Wolff (7:22)

I wrote about the trial and you said she's guilty. Yeah, I probably said that.

Alastair Campbell (7:28)

You can't do that, Michael.

Michael Wolff (7:29)

Well, in, in my country you can.

Alastair Campbell (7:32)

I know you can. But that's why the rule of law is breaking down here. You are innocent until proven guilty. So then we have the Leveson inquiry and this I think is where your justified criticisms of us, the political class and our. I think this is where it comes to a head. I am by now in what Tony Blair used to call my jihadi mode. I'm absolutely convinced this is the moment at which this wretched media culture in our country has to be changed and Cameron has the opportunity to do it. David Cameron said that if Lord Leveson produces recommendations which are not bonkers, was his phrase, we will implement them. The regime that was brought in for press regulation was little more than a sort of. It was another win for the press. And what's more, Leveson 2, which wasn't happening at the time because of all the criminal investigations going on, which was into relations between News International and the police, that was dropped subsequently by the Conservative government. So you talk about missed opportunities and blame it on me for not challenging Murdoch at the wedding. That was a massive missed opportunity and I still think we're paying a price.

Michael Wolff (8:45)

It's a broader discussion about whether you think the tabloid press has continued with its particular power, given the fact that the tabloid press is a shadow of what it once was even 15 years ago.

Alastair Campbell (9:02)

That's true. That is true. And as somebody who comes from a tabloid journalist background, I find that very sad on one level. But I think in a way, the good that was in tabloids had gone anyway. But I still think our media culture has been very, very badly damaged. I think it's damaged our broadcasters because I think the problem with our broadcasters today is they're still massively influenced by written press. So even though the sort of numbers of people who read the written press has their influence within the political debate is still pretty strong, even with social media, AI and all the other stuff that's coming along. So there we are. My God, we got through a lot in that episode, Michael.

Michael Wolff (9:41)

You know, I mean, it just goes that there is always a lot at every point in Murdoch's career. I mean, more than in all other careers in some sense. I mean, because he's partly. Partly because he's operating at so many. In so many different. Different venues at a given period of time, but also because he's doubling down constantly.

Alastair Campbell (10:06)

Good. Well, that's this episode. And in the next episode, we're going to be back in the United States and we're going to be talking about the rise and rise of the Fox News behemoth alongside the rise and rise and fall and rise of Donald Trump.

Michael Wolff (10:21)

We'll see you then.

Alastair Campbell (10:22)

See you then, Michael.

Michael Wolff (10:24)

Foreign.

Narrator/Storyteller (10:31)

You know the words dominating today's headlines.

Carvana/Advertisement Voice (10:34)

Private equity, generative capital gains.

Narrator/Storyteller (10:39)

But do you understand how they Impact your world and your wallet In a world that skims the what, understand the why. Because context changes everything. Subscribe@Bloomberg.com.

Alastair Campbell (10:54)

Alastair Campbell here. Now we've just released a series on one of the most controversial and consequential people of the past 50 years, Rupert Murdoch.

Michael Wolff (11:04)

I think you can argue that he is the most consequential figure of the second half of the 20th century. He holds power longer than anyone else in our time and its meaningful power. It's phenomenal power.

Alastair Campbell (11:19)

Power without responsibility. The prero of the harlot throughout the ages. This is where he becomes not just a newspaper owner, he becomes a major newsmaker.

Michael Wolff (11:28)

Fuck Dacre publish. There is always a premium on bringing him gossip.

David (Rest is Classified) (11:34)

I don't know what you mean by downmarket and upmarket. That is so English class ridden snobbery.

Michael Wolff (11:40)

When you talk like that, how you get it doesn't make any difference. Actually to be perfectly honest, whether it's true or not doesn't make much difference.

Alastair Campbell (11:47)

There is a massive, massive scandal brewing. This was industrial illegal activity. And that I think is what really cuts through to the public and thinks you people are really, really bad.

David (Rest is Classified) (12:00)

I would just like to say one sentence. This is the most humble day of my life.

Michael Wolff (12:05)

There is no Donald Trump without Fox News. His dream was always to elect a president of the United States. The the bitter irony is that that turned out to be Donald Trump, a man he detests. He is conquering the world. There is nothing less than this methodical step by step progress to take over everything.

Alastair Campbell (12:29)

To hear more, sign up@the restispolitics.com hi.

David (Rest is Classified) (12:34)

It'S David from the Rest is Classified here with a very special message for listeners of the Rest is Politics. We've just released a two part series on the pager attacks that were carried out by Israel's foreign intelligence service. Mossad against Hezbollah in the aftermath of October 7th. Now for a political and military organization like Hezbollah, command and control is absolutely everything. And the Israelis had tried to destroy the group and ultimately failed. But in the low level conflict the two sides were engaged in post October 7, Israel was facing the prospect of of a two front war and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided to take critical action. As Hezbollah grew increasingly paranoid, they turned to the pager as a secure alternative. But what they bought instead was a lethal Mossad plot. Within days, Hezbollah's command was wiped out when the Israelis assassinated its leader Hassan Nasrallah. To hear the full episode, you can listen to the Rest is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts as we break down this incredible geopolitical gamble and all the spycraft behind the explosive attacks that permanently shifted the balance of power in the Middle East.