$33 Non-Toxic Toilet Paper with Ochuko Akpovbovbo

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Review of Mess
Episode: $33 Non-Toxic Toilet Paper with Ochuko Akpovbovbo
Host: Jessica DeFino & Emily Kirkpatrick
Guest: Ochuko Akpovbovbo
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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Introduction of Guest and Episode Overview

In this episode of The Review of Mess, hosts Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick welcome their special guest, Ochuko Akpovbovbo, the creator behind "As Seen on Substack." The trio delves into a range of topics centered around pop culture, with a particular focus on the dynamics of modern dating apps.

[00:34] Ochuco: "Fun to be here, guys."

Bumble's Leadership and AI Integration

The conversation begins with a discussion about Bumble's recent developments, particularly the interview with Whitney Wolfe, Bumble's founder, featured on The New York Times podcast. Jessica and Ochuko express their thoughts on Wolfe’s adoption of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in Bumble's operations.

[01:39] Jessica Defino: "I saw many pull quotes from it, like almost immediately after it went live about her adoption of AI."

Ochuko reflects on Wolfe’s leadership challenges and her return to Bumble amid controversies, including the failed "cell busy" ad campaign.

[02:16] Ochuco: "I find it hard to think she didn't have some insight into what was happening there and didn't sign up in some way."

Challenges Faced by Bumble

The hosts critique Bumble’s struggles, highlighting the company's attempts to revamp and adapt in a competitive market. They discuss the narrative that Wolfe is returning to "save" the company, emphasizing the importance of her role in addressing Bumble’s setbacks.

[02:47] Emily Kirkpatrick: "It's a good narrative to save your company. It was like, 'Oh, I'm coming back to save it all.'"

User Experiences with Bumble

Jessica and Emily share their personal experiences with Bumble, expressing frustration with the app's functionality and user engagement. Emily specifically points out the app's mechanism that prompts users to rate their experience, which she often rates negatively.

[03:33] Emily Kirkpatrick: "Every time I'm like, no, bitch, I'm not. I hate it here."

Jessica adds her perspective, noting that despite messaging first, her success on Bumble has been minimal compared to other platforms.

[03:46] Jessica Defino: "I had the least success with Bumble. Like, Bumble was consistently the most frustrating experience."

Dynamics of Messaging First in Online Dating

The discussion shifts to the dynamics of initiating conversations on dating apps. Emily theorizes that conversations initiated by women are less successful, suggesting a shift in traditional dating roles may be impacting user experiences.

[04:17] Emily Kirkpatrick: "When women message first, it's not going to work out. It feels like men need to be the ones reaching out."

Jessica connects this observation to broader socio-political trends, contemplating how the politicization of dating apps influences user interactions and perceptions.

[04:41] Jessica Defino: "It's about the political climate and how that's informing dating apps and the growing divide politically between men who are leaning right and women who are leaning left."

Impact of Political Climate on Online Dating

Jessica elaborates on how political divides are shaping the landscape of online dating. She references her upcoming article for "Ask Ugly" in The Guardian, where she explores the fear of women that their online personas may not align with their real-life appearances, exacerbated by political tensions.

[04:41] Jessica Defino: "Women being the ones to message first really switches up that dynamic in a way I think the culture is very much rejecting right now."

Conclusion and Exclusive Content Teaser

The episode concludes with a teaser for a paid subscriber exclusive post, encouraging listeners to subscribe for a continuation of the in-depth conversation.

[05:33] Emily Kirkpatrick: "Hope to see you there."

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Key Takeaways

1. Leadership Challenges at Bumble: Whitney Wolfe's return to Bumble amidst AI integration efforts aims to address past controversies and revitalize the platform.

2. User Frustrations: Both hosts express dissatisfaction with Bumble's user experience, particularly with the dynamics of messaging first.

3. Changing Dating Norms: The shift towards women initiating conversations may be influencing the success rates and overall dynamics on dating platforms.

4. Political Influences: The growing political divide is impacting online dating, affecting user interactions and expectations.

5. Future Discussions: The hosts hint at deeper explorations of these topics in their exclusive content, emphasizing the complexity of modern dating and its intersection with societal trends.

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This episode provides a critical examination of Bumble's recent strategies, user experiences with the app, and the broader socio-political factors influencing online dating. Jessica, Emily, and Ochuko offer insightful perspectives on how these elements interplay to shape the current landscape of digital romance.

Transcript

[Jessica Defino]

Hello and welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino. I write the newsletter, the Review of Beauty.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick. I write the newsletter I heart Mess. And today we have a very special guest, Ochuco from the as Seen on Substack, one of our favorites.

[Ochuco]

Fun to be here, guys.

[Jessica Defino]

Thank you so much for being here. We're such fans. I feel like we've shouted out as seen on like many, many times in past POD episodes.

[Ochuco]

So I love it. I feel so honored. Like when Jess messaged me. Jess, Jessica. I heard her call you Jess, and now I'm just at the office.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, Jess is fine. Yeah.

[Ochuco]

Okay. Either way, when you emailed me, I think I emailed back like two seconds. I'm like, yes, yes, I do that.

[Jessica Defino]

So excited to hear from you so quickly. And now we're here and. Yeah, I mean, we are. When I got your list of topics too, I was very excited because I feel like they're so meaty and there's so many different, like fashion, beauty, culture, tie ins to all of them. They're like great representations of just what's happening in the world. So to start, should we get into what is happening with. With the dating apps right now? What are you noticing? What's catching your eye?

[Ochuco]

Did you guys listen to the, I think the New York Times through podcast? Like the interview? Do you listen to the one with Whitney Wolfhard Bumble founder?

[Jessica Defino]

I didn't listen to it, but I saw many pull quotes from it, like almost immediately after it went live about her adoption of AI.

[Ochuco]

Yeah. Oh, my God, it was so weird. So maybe she's a good at interviews. Actually, I had a little bit of empathy for her listening to that, like, you know, interview and everything. And the whole thing about how she left because she was really exhausted and then she's back now because the company really needs her help, obviously. Like Bumble last year with the whole cell busy ad gone wrong. So embarrassing. So bad. Yeah, that was really.

[Jessica Defino]

So wait, she, Whitney Wolf was not like involved with the brand.

[Ochuco]

She wasn't invol all she was, I don't know her official title. She wasn't in the C suite anymore. Probably on the board somewhere. Yeah, but I find it hard because that was the whole revamped relaunch. I find it hard to think she didn't have some insight into what was happening there and didn't sign up in some way. And so the whole like, oh, I wasn't there in that half. I'm not. I'm just saying.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, it's a good narrative. It's a good narrative, though, to, like, save your company. It was like, oh, I'm coming back to save it all. It was like dying without me.

[Ochuco]

Yeah. You know, good for her. She said that the. The former CEO just messaged her one day and was like, okay, I. I can't do this anymore. This isn't working. She's like, you know what? It's time. My baby needs me. I'm coming back. Wow. And she's coming back with AI because I feel like at this point, if you're in tech, you cannot build something without including it AI. And, you know, the whole pitch is, where's my phone? I had it on my notes app. She said that when asked why she thinks it's not working, she says she thinks Bumble isn't working because people feel rejected and they don't feel happy. It doesn't make them feel good. That's why she thinks it isn't working.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I just feel like that stat about it not being happy is specifically for me because Bumble asks when you use it, like, if you swipe on, like, five people, it's like, are you enjoying your experience at Bumble? And every time I'm like, no, bitch, I'm not. I hate it here.

[Jessica Defino]

No.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So I think that's the happiness status that they're working with.

[Ochuco]

For sure. For sure. I bet, like, everyone is saying that. And also, I know Bumble is the, like, feminist one, but can I be honest? I hate messaging first. I really, really do.

[Jessica Defino]

When I was on the apps, I had the least success with Bumble. Like, Bumble was consistently the most frustrating experience, even if I would message first on other platforms. So I don't know if it was, like, specifically that, but I just couldn't. I couldn't connect.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's my dating app theory that it never works when women message first. I don't know if that's just my experience, but it's like, anytime I am messaging first, it's not going to work out. Even if they message me back, like, whatever. It's not a good conversation. It doesn't work out. I don't know what it is. Like, I. Men. I mean, this is also from a straight woman's perspective, but it feels like men need to be the ones reaching. They need to be the pursuers somehow. I don't know.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, this is kind of what I was, like, thinking about in this dating app conversation, because Actually, the question that I'm answering right now for my next Ask Ugly column at the Guardian is about online dating and creating a profile and pictures and just like feeling really scared men are gonna think she's catfishing if she's less beautiful in person or whatever. And like so much of my answer and is ending up being about like sort of the political climate and how that's informing dating apps and like this growing divide politically between men who are leaning right and women who are sort of leaning left. And yeah, the women being the ones to message first really switches up that dynamic in a way I think the culture is very much rejecting right now. Yeah, that was a preview of this week's paid subscriber exclusive post. To continue listening, just head to Substack and upgrade to paid.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, you can [e-mail] and jessica defino.substack.com upgrade to a paid subscription and you can hear the rest of this great conversation. Hope to see you there.