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- [00:16]
Jessica Defino
Hello, and welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino and I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty.
- [00:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick. I write I Heart Mess, a weekly roundup of the best of the worst celebrity fashion.
- [00:33]
Jessica Defino
And we're back. We're back again for a second time this month. If you didn't catch our premium post with Mackenzie Thomas earlier in the month, go back and do that.
- [00:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I truly had to restrain my laughter throughout the entire episode. I had to, like, back away from the mic because I felt out of control. That is how funny I find her.
- [00:51]
Jessica Defino
I don't think I did a good job. And in fact, lots of people complained about our audio, but I think it's just because we were having too much fun. Fun.
- [00:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
We're having way too much fun. Mackenzie is so funny. You should all subscribe to her newsletter. I will do whatever I want it. It genuinely makes me laugh out loud every month.
- [01:06]
Jessica Defino
Which one of the best out there.
- [01:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's one of my faves. I also wanted to mention just yesterday, another great podcast, who Weekly, which probably, I assume, many of you listen to because it's. It's like the premier weirdo pop culture podcast out there. They gave, um, my newsletter a great shout out on their Patreon episode as one of their favorite substack newsletters. I know. I was so honored. I'm an OG Pooh Weekly fan, so that's incredible.
- [01:34]
Jessica Defino
I am, too. I haven't listened in a while, but I have listened before. For years. I was.
- [01:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, they are. They are really foundational to my pop culture humor, I feel like. And how I think about pop culture and also, like, helped me escape. I don't know. I started listening to them when I worked at People magazine, which was, like, my first big tabloid job. And I really think that they helped me kind of, like, survive and think and think about what I do in a different way and in a way that helped inform what Mess ultimately became. So very grateful for that.
- [02:05]
Jessica Defino
That's so exciting.
- [02:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [02:06]
Jessica Defino
Well deserved.
- [02:07]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Thank you. Which brings me. Maybe I'll just jump into my first point because we have another big fan I've discovered who's a big fan of yours. Yeah, Someone is a big fan of mine out there who I never would have expected. And it's the New York Times style section. What? Yeah. Truly seeing their stories. In the past couple months, I've had that. The line from the Kendrick song, like, he a fan. He a Fan. He. A fan. Like that just keeps playing on repeat in my mind because, yeah, the New York Times style section is into me, and what they're not into is to crediting my ideas.
- [02:38]
Jessica Defino
Crediting you. Yeah, yeah.
- [02:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [02:40]
Jessica Defino
Many such cases.
- [02:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Many such cases. I also just wanted to preface the story by, like, every time that I. I don't know. I mean, this is also, like, writer insecurity, I think. But, like, every time that I talk about stuff like this, I feel like, you know, why would these people be stealing from little old me? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I'm centering myself in a narrative that I'm not centered in. But I would just like to point out, in preparing for this, the conversation, I just did a quick search through my subscribers.
- [03:10]
Jessica Defino
That is the move.
- [03:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
- [03:12]
Jessica Defino
How many times have I done this and felt so vindicated?
- [03:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, you really find out some facts about who your audience is. And I would just like to say that I have a minimum of six readers who work at the New York Times, and those are just the ones who are using their work email addresses.
- [03:25]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my gosh.
- [03:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. Yes. And I'm not saying they're all New York Times style section employees. I'm just saying I'm in the zeitgeist. Like, I'm in the in the mood board. Yeah. And also, I'll add that last year, a New York Times op ed writer who's also a reader of my newsletter interviewed me for a piece that she wrote that was published in the New York Times about nudity at the Met gala. So I am in their orbit. They are not familiar with me. I'm also. Yeah. You know, the first one I noticed, I was very forgiving of, and it was my whole Medieval Renaissance fairfall thing.
- [04:02]
Jessica Defino
Right. Which was a big pod discussion, too. Like, we hashed that out on the pod.
- [04:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, that is gonna become a theme of this. It is not just my newsletter. It is a pod discussion. It is YouTube videos I'm making. Like, I am putting content out into the ether. I don't know where they're consuming it, but they're consuming it somewhere. I have a feeling it's this podcast, but we'll see. Time will tell, I suppose. But it started the New York Times at the beginning of January. Their style section posted, like, an infographic to their Instagram account. Kind of just rounding up their big Trend predictions for 2025. And the very first one they had, they call it Minds Drift to Medieval Times. Sounds familiar. And the copy on it says, Remember when all those men were thinking about the Roman Empire? Next year, a different historical period seems poised to infiltrate minds. The Middle Ages. There have been indications that a fresh fascination with medieval times may be taking hold. Instead of being demure, quote unquote demure, people in 2025 will start readying themselves for battle, or at least try casting away their phones to party like it's 1999. First of all, I found this copy to be, like, weirdly flippant about the trend. Like, considering how kind of impactful and telling it is, or at least in the way that I explored it in my newsletter and in this podcast, a lot darker. Yeah, well, okay, first of all, I guess their announcement of this trend comes about three or four months after my announcement of this trend. And it's just very funny to me because when I wrote the essay, I believe my essay is called Chainmail as Pre Capitalist Yearning, which is a little abstract, but that is what it is. When I wrote that, I thought, like, wow, I'm so late to this.
- [05:46]
Jessica Defino
Because honestly, you had talked about that for so long on the pod at least two months before this essay. I remember you calling it out in red carpet roundups one month. And then the next month we talked about it more in depth on the pod. And then a couple weeks after that, you put out this full essay. So it was months in the making of you speaking about it. It too.
- [06:07]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And I feel like that's kind of how I've been using this podcast to just pull back the curtain, maybe for the listener is.
- [06:14]
Jessica Defino
You heard it here first.
- [06:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I'll often. I don't know, because trends at the beginning, it's like I just want to call them out because I. I'm seeing them happen, but I don't necessarily know what they mean yet or if they're going to be important or if they're going to be enduring. So it's, like, fun for me just to, like, cite it on the POD and just, like, give you a heads up that it's happening. But then I feel like as time goes on and I continue to see it, it's clear that it's, like, holding more space in the industry than I maybe thought it would to begin with. And then I also. Then I start having thoughts about, like, okay, well, if it is holding space, if it is resonating with people right now, like, why? And then I start kind of digging a layer deeper and really thinking about the ramifications of it. So, yeah, I was definitely calling out Ren Fair Fall for a long Time before, I kind of knew what it meant to me and thought enough of it to, like, write a full essay on it. And by the time I was writing the essay, I was truly questioning, like, everybody already knows about this by now. Like, who cares? Yeah. Is this over? Like, is it even worth me kind of talking about it? And so I think it's kind of embarrassing for the New York Times to call it out in January and say, like, the year ahead, honestly, because I'm like, no, the year behind.
- [07:14]
Jessica Defino
Very New York Times.
- [07:16]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And it's very New York Times. But also, I mean, I mentioned that it's kind of flippant because my kind of takeaway from the essay was that our medieval obsession. Well, first of all, it's like, parallel. We've talked about this in Vaga, so apologies to listeners who have been here for a long time. But it's like, first of all, it's the pandemic, right? It's a. It's a fashion response to the pandemic. The same way this medieval Renaissance fashion was a response to the Black Plague. And then you also have kind of Renaissance fashion was also largely about, like, wealth redistribution and people becoming enormously more wealthy than they were in the past because of all these people dying and all these inheritances and then being able to take that money to kind of replicate nobility fashion in a way they weren't able to before. And that causing this kind of class panic of, like, the nobility being like, well, shit, how do we differentiate ourselves now from the masses when suddenly they can afford our textiles, they can afford our furs, they can afford all this finery? And so it, like, goes into an even more baroque, insane, kind of crazy place. And that's what we're seeing it in fashion again, as. As the class hierarchies are kind of, like, influx and panic. So saying that it is just kind of like, people don't want to be on their phones anymore. It's a little silly and kind of minimalizing. Anyway, so that was the first example that I noticed in the New York Times, but I really let it go because, again, super late. So it wasn't just me talking about it. It was. A lot of people in the industry had already written the story. I mean, there was even a story in Architectural Digest by my Internet friend Sydney, who was talking about that trend happening in interior design. So it was clearly like, you know, cross genre. Yeah, it was happening.
- [08:58]
Jessica Defino
People could notice it.
- [08:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely. Now, this next one, I don't know anybody who's. Who's talked about this. Or especially in the way it's being talked about. Except for us on this podcast. Except for me in my newsletter in this in December. These are conversations that were again happening in December. Yeah, the podcast came out in December. My newsletters about it came out in December. My YouTube channel videos came out about it in the beginning of January. So it was out there by us. And that is. That fur is back.
- [09:28]
Jessica Defino
It is back. I mean, it's.
- [09:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No doubt it is back.
- [09:33]
Jessica Defino
But yeah, there's a.
- [09:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
A little interesting.
- [09:36]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. How did they frame.
- [09:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, how did they frame the. It was the framing that I think also kind of struck me as. As particularly us. Their headline is what happened to the stigma of wearing fur? Which I believe is kind of exactly the question that I ask. Yeah. When I. When I framed this trend.
- [09:55]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I remember like hashing this out with you in real time.
- [09:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Exactly. And the things that they're hashing out in this article are like, kind of follows beat for beat the conversation that we had in the podcast. Maybe I'll just read the caption, which is an excerpt from the article, which says. As temperatures in New York plunged into the teens and 20s in January, women and men all over town were busting their furs out of storage in what felt like an abrupt reversal of social attitudes. After decades of coordinated campaigning involving protests and even personal attacks, the anti fur movement led by organizations like PETA seemed to have shifted the tides in their favor. Many brands and customers decided being fur free was a better look. For years, in much of the US And Europe, wearing real fur has felt taboo. Except suddenly some people don't seem to care, especially if the wearer can assert the mantle of vintage as no animals were freshly killed and upcycling old clothes is more virtuous than buying new. But what about faux fur? And then they have a quote from Carly Mark, the designer of Puppets and Puppets, who said, I think people are really misunderstanding vintage fur versus faux fur. In her eyes, it's the superior sustainable option. She cited plastics and microplastics and faux fur fibers, often made from petroleum based materials, as worse for the environment in the big picture. But animal rights groups see vintage fur as a dangerous trend. Quote, if someone sees a person wearing used fur and they don't know it's used, they could very well go buy new fur, said P.J. smith, the director of fashion policy for the Humane Society of the US So which is best, vintage, faux or none?
- [11:23]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, we had, we did have this exact conversation because I remember we were like, what would be sort of like the protest version of faux fur. And I was like, we should throw black paint to symbolize, like, oil on faux fur.
- [11:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [11:37]
Jessica Defino
Instead of the red paint symbolizing blood on real fur.
- [11:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You got it. What the. The only thing I thought was interesting about this story, honestly, is that PETA was in the comment section. It's like, nice to see you here, PETA. Thank you for joining in the conversation. Your silence has been noted, friends. But, yeah, yeah. Anyway. And I just, you know, whether the New York Times is stealing for me or not specifically, I do think it's just important. They're kind of infamous for this type of behavior. I don't know if that's something that's, like, widely known, but as someone who's worked in, like, every New York media institution, especially when I worked at the New York Post, this is like, well, trod grievance there. Especially, you know, the New York Post, obviously, an evil empire, a Trump propaganda arm, a bad place. But the one thing I will always say in their defense is our city desk reporters. There are some of the best reporters in the business, like, truly on the beat, like, really uncovering things, getting scoops, doing the groundwork. And the New York Times was often taking the groundwork they were doing and then elaborating upon it without credit. And I don't know, they used to say, this is the New York Times. I don't know if this is true. I've never. I've only ever freelanced for the Times. I've never worked there on staff, same. But they used to say the New York Post, that the New York Times has some sort of, like, literary standard that. Where they don't credit, like, they don't link out. They don't link out to the source, don't link out. Which is insane in an Internet landscape. Like, I get that kind of as a. As a print publication, but as a digital publication, I think that's kind of criminal. And also, I mean, especially when we're living in a climate where we're watching the death of local reporting and, like, small reporting, like, for a major institution to be kind of poaching those stories without credit, without directing traffic back to the source, to me, seems like, bad.
- [13:34]
Jessica Defino
I actually had, like, a similar thing happen for the last story that I wrote for the New York Times wellness section. So the story was about beauty reporters and influencers who had, like, built their careers shilling products, having negative reactions to using so many skincare products, and then suddenly paring down their routines after years. And so I wrote this story. I Did like this whole intro interviewing a bunch of beauty reporters who are like, you know, well known in the space and like, well known influencers on the side talking about skincare. And the feedback was I had to kill the whole intro because they don't report on reporters.
- [14:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
There we go.
- [14:18]
Jessica Defino
So I feel like that might have something.
- [14:21]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. With what's happening with that. Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I just don't get it. I do not get it.
- [14:27]
Jessica Defino
As in this case, I was like, but the reporters are the story.
- [14:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, exactly.
- [14:31]
Jessica Defino
A big story. If you're in this industry and you won't use the industry's products anymore because they've hurt you like that.
- [14:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, that's the story.
- [14:39]
Jessica Defino
And they were like, yeah, it's just like a technicality. We can't use it.
- [14:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, they need to reconsider and they need to start citing us when they're making our trend predictions. I have some more for them coming up too, that they can steal. If anyone out there is listening. I got a couple of good ones. Yeah, I should just send them the podcast and it'd be like, pitch link, listen and tell me what you want me to write up for you since you're doing it anyway.
- [15:04]
Jessica Defino
Well, I have a story that's kind of the opposite. Like, everyone's a big fan of yours. Copying you. Nobody likes me or wants me in their pages.
- [15:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Please. Oh, please.
- [15:17]
Jessica Defino
So I'm going to talk about. I published it in my newsletter. This, this story about why people are so into facial harmonization right now. Like facial harmony having, quote, unquote, good or bad. Facial harmony has been a big trend on TikTok since like last summer. And it started to trickle down from people talking about their facial harmony and their proportions and the balance of their features to actually influencing, like, how people are going to aesthetic doctors and plastic surgeons and deciding to change their face. Like, harmony is kind of this big buzzword right now.
- [15:53]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And that was a term that I hadn't heard before either. Like, I don't know, it really sums up nicely kind of what we've seen beauty in plastic surgery, especially shifting towards over the last few years completely.
- [16:05]
Jessica Defino
And I. So anyway, this. I'm not gonna like, say what platform it was. I'm. I'm just, I'm not going to. I'll just tell the story without.
- [16:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's very diplomatic of you. After I called out, like all of my haters, national news platform had reached.
- [16:20]
Jessica Defino
Out to me like a while ago from the, like, from seeing my newsletter content and enjoying it, I guess, or at least wanting or at least liking.
- [16:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
The audience that was drawn to it.
- [16:34]
Jessica Defino
I would bring to the content. So they reached out to me. We're talking about, like, wanting to do, like, some work together long term, like a column once a month, blah, blah, blah. So I sent a bunch of pitches, and one of them was this facial harmonization story. And so my pitch had mentioned that the trend could be traced back to, like, eugenics and fascism. Like, that was going to be the bulk of the story. And yet when I submitted the fully researched story, which again, you can now read on my newsletter, I'll link it in the show notes. When I submitted the story, the editors were surprised, I guess. Like, not only did they want to cut out a lot of the history of facial harmony and facial angles, they wanted me to, like, rewrite it from my perspective of like, well, how did it feel to start seeing facial harmonization trend? Like, were you. Did it make you self conscious about your own face?
- [17:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I was like, are you insecure?
- [17:33]
Jessica Defino
No. I was like, I don't have anything to add there. They were like, well, what? Like, what did you think when you first saw this? I said, it's your job. I know the history of beauty. So I thought eugenics, right?
- [17:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I placed it into the appropriate context because I do this professionally all the time.
- [17:48]
Jessica Defino
And in the edits, they actually added a line in my voice that was like, I looked down at my chin. I had never noticed that it was.
- [17:55]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So out of proportion with my nose, like, so inexcusable. To me, that is so.
- [18:01]
Jessica Defino
I know. I'm sure it was just, like, a general suggestion, but it wouldn't care.
- [18:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's so personal and weird to be.
- [18:09]
Jessica Defino
Like, why do you want me to develop an insecurity for this story that I don't have?
- [18:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I feel like it takes, like, what I was complaining about with the face and, like, them completely rewriting my essay to, like, a new level where they're, like, actually trying to implant, like, weird ideas in your brain. You know what I mean? It's like, they're not just making up your work, they're making up ideas and feelings that you have about yourself, and they're expressing them for you.
- [18:33]
Jessica Defino
Well, I think the beauty media in general is more. More interested in individualized stories rather than systemic critiques. Because when you insert your own feelings in it, it gets murkier of, like, is it good or bad to want to harmonize your face? I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in, like, where did this come from, as my pitch said. Right. Anyway, I also had a line in there about, like, you know, after detailing how facial angles were, like, this concept of facial angles came about in, like, the 18th century as a way to justify racism. Like, doctors, pseudo scientists, like, were measuring skulls of European people, Asian people, black people, and comparing them to orangutans.
- [19:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right.
- [19:15]
Jessica Defino
And then comparing them also to Greek statues and saying, well, European skulls are the closest to these Greek statues. I wonder why. Yeah, so therefore, this is a deal of beauty and everyone else is, like, in a descending order, like an animal. Like, it's a really dark history. So, yeah, I had written about that. I had written about how this pseudoscience was, like, co opted by the Nazis in pre war Germany to start justifying, like, the extermination of entire groups of people, of Jews, of people in insane asylums, blah, blah, blah. And then I had a line like, is it any wonder that this is trending in Trump's America?
- [19:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Of course.
- [19:53]
Jessica Defino
And then that was taken out and the note was like, no, this was trending before, unfortunately. And I was like, do you think Trump's America started on January 20, 2025?
- [20:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, right?
- [20:06]
Jessica Defino
Like, no, I would argue it started like 2014, 2015, the lead up to the first presidential campaign. And like, even anything that is trending, like, months before he took office or years before, like, reflects, I would say, like, the values and fears of the nation that voted him into office. Like, of course.
- [20:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And we have minimum a decade of maga to, you know, to be responsible for this.
- [20:28]
Jessica Defino
So I was just, like, taken aback. But, you know, like, I went to bat for the story. We got to a point where, like, we hashed it out. I was keeping in what I needed to keep in. I had edited some other stuff that they had asked for, and I was like, we were in a place where the story was okay.
- [20:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [20:46]
Jessica Defino
Then it went to, like, the next round of edits, and it was gutted completely. Like, whatever editors looked at it next just took everything out. They asked me to cut out all of the stuff about eugenics, all of the stuff about fascism, all of the stuff about Nazis. They allowed me, like, one parenthetical. So if you read the story, there's like a section toward the end about, like, art history and harmony and art. That was all that they wanted to keep in by way of explanation, which is like, the softest critique in the world.
- [21:16]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, yeah. The thing that only leads into the fascism piece.
- [21:19]
Jessica Defino
You can put a parenthesis here, being like, like, let's not forget about the, like, scary history of facial, let's not.
- [21:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Forget, but let's not talk about it either and, and educate you. Because it's crazy to say, let's not forget when you are providing a historical analysis that most people don't have. Like, I. I feel like a lot of people don't know that those are the origins or like, or they might know and not have made the connection between the two and the relationship. And also, when you told me that they were cutting all that stuff out, I was like, so what is the story? Like, is that not the very thrust.
- [21:50]
Jessica Defino
Of there just was no story. And then I have a whole section in there that talks about, like, beauty as an ethical ideal and how beauty functions as, like, shorthand for morality. And like, sort of has since, like, ancient Greek times and it's especially prevalent today. And like, that whole section was highlighted and one editor was like, I don't understand this slash. I disagree. Which are just like, two very different things. And then that stance was corroborated by another editor who was like, yeah, I also don't understand it and disagree.
- [22:24]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I love that I'm going to start using that. I don't understand this and I disagree with it.
- [22:29]
Jessica Defino
It just blew my mind because that's not really even up for debate. Like, that's like, pretty settled philosophy. Like, yes, beauty does function as an ethical ideal in society.
- [22:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I mean, even in, like, the copywriting that you see around products, you see that all the time. You've called it out. You've made me super aware of it.
- [22:46]
Jessica Defino
And I had examples of that in the text. I actually ended up cutting out a bunch of them when I published it myself, just because I forgot to add it back in, unfortunately. But I kept that most of that section. And it just feels like, like, that felt like such an odd critique to get from people who are editing beauty stories. Because I'm just like, are you not familiar with how your subject matter, like, actually exists in the world? Like, that's scary to me.
- [23:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Or just, like, not want to lift the veil on how your subject matter actually exists in the world because you want to be able to keep operating.
- [23:21]
Jessica Defino
And there's just so many examples today of beauty as an ethical ideal. Like, grown adults are talking about, like, Anne Hathaway looks so good at 40 something because she's unproblematic. Or like, Prince William is balding because he's evil. Amy Schumer gained weight because she's a Zionist. Like, even, like, I. The recent cover of New York magazine, that was like, about all The Young Maga Republicans at the walls, they're hot. And so the reaction on Twitter was like, they can't be bad people. They're so hot. And then what was happening was like, seemingly progressive or liberal women were, quote, tweeting it with their own selfies and being like, no, I'm hotter. Yeah, like, you're better. Like, as if you're better because hotness.
- [24:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Is for good people.
- [24:06]
Jessica Defino
A more powerful and ethical political perspective.
- [24:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, totally, totally.
- [24:10]
Jessica Defino
So it just blew my mind, that, that. And, you know, I like, want to keep in mind, like, maybe I didn't explain it well. Maybe some of the fault was like, okay, I didn't fully explain what I was saying, but just to be like, I don't agree with this from a beauty editor seemed so.
- [24:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And even so, even if you didn't explain yourself fully or something, like, the correct edit is like, can you elaborate? Or could you clarify this section or this part? Or like, maybe we summarize this. You know what I mean? It's not like I don't understand and I disagree with you. That really gives me flashbacks. I don't know if you've heard me talk about this. I was talking about celebrity apologies recently in the newsletter, and there's one from Ms. Tina Knowles where she says, like, if you see me doing something on social media that's uncharacteristic of me, it's not me. That is very the same thing to me. It's like, it's me if you like it, and then if you don't like it, it's not me. Yeah. So I don't understand it, but I also disagree is going right in that same folder in my brain.
- [25:14]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. So anyway, I like, I just pulled the story. I self published it, but I think.
- [25:19]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That was the right choice.
- [25:20]
Jessica Defino
I just wanted to tell the story on the POD because I feel like it's crazy. I want people to know, like, how difficult it is still in 2025 to get, like, challenging stories about beauty published. Like, even when a publication in general is like, progressive or liberal or has good political coverage, like, the beauty section specifically is still really a challenge and just makes me sad.
- [25:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, it's very disheartening. And also on top of that, I always think about, like, I was thinking about this with. When I was dealing with this with the face as well, where it's just like, it's crazy to me that my whole career it's like, what I wanted to talk about. And, like, same with you. Right. Like, this is where we have a lot of common ground. It's like the things that we wanted to talk about, the things we wanted to write about, were not accepted by the publishers that we work for. Like, it's bad for advertisers, it's not what the audience wants, blah, blah, blah. So we go out, we create these newsletters that prove there is an audience. There's an audience, and people are hungry for this content and they're interested in this content. And then it, it becomes so popular that the publications turn around and they're like, oh, you know what? You're right. Like, we've always loved your work and we're always very interested and we want some of this on our platform. And then they hire you to give it, and then they don't want it.
- [26:29]
Jessica Defino
Sanitize it. Yeah.
- [26:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. And it's like, what are we doing here? Like, what is this weird mind game? It's just so strange to me.
- [26:35]
Jessica Defino
It's so strange and just, like, depressing.
- [26:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And why do you not want, like, effective deep cultural thought on your platforms? Like, I just genuinely don't understand, like, why do you underestimate your readers so strongly that they're. They don't have the. The appetite for this or they aren't able to understand this stuff. Like, they clearly are hunger for deeper meaning. And all you're doing is perpetuating this idea that fashion and beauty are shallow.
- [27:01]
Jessica Defino
Exactly. Exactly.
- [27:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And they have no real ramification and it is just a, you know, a frivolous woman's hobby that, like, we don't. Aren't deserving of our time.
- [27:10]
Jessica Defino
I think that's exactly why they wanted the individual perspective.
- [27:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right.
- [27:13]
Jessica Defino
Because if an individual tells you, like, oh, I'm really insecure about my disproportionate facial features, what's the argument against getting a little help there?
- [27:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, and it invalidates the critique and it again. And. Yeah. It makes it a frivolous woman's problem versus, like a real systemic racist problem.
- [27:30]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. It's like one person who says, I don't feel that good about myself, so I'm going to do this rather than, why, why do we not feel good about ourselves? Could it be.
- [27:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Could it be external?
- [27:41]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Oh, gosh.
- [27:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's very frustrating.
- [27:45]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [27:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I guess. Speaking of trends under Maga America, I have a couple of fashion things, like I said. I just. I would like to shout them out. I don't have a lot of profound thoughts at the moment, but I do think they're interesting and I do think they're exemplary of, like, what's Going on culturally. The first one was one I wrote about in the newsletter last week, which is the tighty whities. Like, adult women in tighty whities.
- [28:11]
Jessica Defino
I loved that little trend story.
- [28:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Very weird. Very weird to see. It's a real adult baby situation happening out there in Hollywood. I guess I should preface by saying that, like, we've seen a lot of micro shorts on celebrities since about 2023. I mean, the first one that really comes to mind is Hailey Bieber. Hailey Bieber wore a pair of, like, Saint Laurent leather micro shorts that look like, you know, underwear as part of an outfit. And that's kind of the first moment that I remember being like, oh, this is really happening. And then we've seen a bunch since then, but specifically this week, they were all white. And when you see the style in white, it just hits. Completely different than a micro short. It is full blown diaper. There's just no two ways about it. This diaper core, yeah, it's diapercore to the extreme. Which is just so strange that you want as an adult woman or a man. I have not seen any men do it, but that's just an adult person. The desire.
- [29:09]
Jessica Defino
I actually saw it on a male model on some Runway show. It might have been a. Sheesh. I'm gonna look it up because I took a screenshot.
- [29:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's very exciting. Send it on over. Would love to see. But it's just very interesting to me as an adult person to want to look like you pee and poop in your own pants is very odd. It's not sexy.
- [29:28]
Jessica Defino
I don't know if you can see it.
- [29:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I can see that. That is an adult male diaper.
- [29:32]
Jessica Defino
It's an adult male diaper and, like, a glittery shirt that says, wow, what a.
- [29:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Okay, incredible Trend confirmed. Trend confirmed beyond my wildest dreams. That's crazy. This is why I have to say things out loud, because this to the.
- [29:47]
Jessica Defino
New York Times right now. New York Times.
- [29:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I know you're listening. I have a diaper story for you. That's crazy. That is why I have to say things out loud, though, because I always think I'm crazy. And I think I'm like, kind of making a mountain out of a molehill. And then it starts snowballing in this way that I never could have foreseen. And I'm like, damn, okay, so it is happening. So anyway, yeah, diapers are happening. It started, I noticed on Alana Haim. And also, let me say, the amount of times that I had to Google the Haim sisters because I can't tell the difference between them. This is on me, this is not on them. But I had to like quadruple check that. This was truly Alana Haim that I was looking at. Anyway, for her birthday she wore this outfit that was like. I'm trying to get better at describing outfits by the way, because people keep telling me that I'm, I'm bad about it.
- [30:29]
Jessica Defino
Really?
- [30:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And I know that I am because it's like I can see the pictures so vividly in my brain that I think that everyone can. And I'm trying to be better about knowing they can't. Anyway, Alana Haim wore this like skin tight lacy white silk romper underneath a leather jacket. So like only the bottoms were visible. So it was a lacy silk brief, boho moto. Beautiful. Yes. And then Kiki Palmer, she co hosted the Cuts Fashion Week event and she straight up was wearing tighty whities with a blazer.
- [31:04]
Jessica Defino
I love it. It's like Carrie Bradshaw. But also it's like a real continuation of the big men's boxer trend from last year. Like remember when everyone was just wearing boxers instead of shorts?
- [31:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. Hailey Bieber again, quite literally wore Justin Bieber's boxers photograph that I found to be very, very strange. But yeah, it is kind of a continuation of that. And yeah, it is very Carrie Bradshaw, now that you mention it, because, because I don't. Do people know that Carrie Bradshaw kind of made like the visible bra like a thing?
- [31:36]
Jessica Defino
I don't know. I, I, she did.
- [31:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know if she was wearing like on the show. She was wearing like bras that you could see all of underneath sheer tops and stuff. And that was kind of like sensational.
- [31:48]
Jessica Defino
At the time, even leaving the straps out. Like do you remember what was in the early 2000s? Like you couldn't have a visible bra strap. It was.
- [31:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Do you remember all those clear plastic bra straps we were wearing? Like, like people couldn't like absolutely insane work what we were doing there, trying to make bras invisible.
- [32:07]
Jessica Defino
I can't imagine caring about that now.
- [32:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Exactly. Neither can I. But it was like the most shameful thing in the early aughts was like to be able to see your bra in any capacity, which is crazy. And then Carrie Bradshaw was just wearing hers out, out in the open, thanks to the genius of Pat Fields, underneath sheer dresses and tops and stuff. And people were like, it was a real sensation because I remember at the time like, like I was still a little too young. Like I was not really Watching Sex and the City?
- [32:31]
Jessica Defino
No.
- [32:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, if anything, I was sneaking an episode here and there while my parents were out of the house.
- [32:36]
Jessica Defino
Like the reruns on, like, the E. Channel?
- [32:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Exactly, exactly. Or like, the TBS ones that were, like, had all the good parts cut out. But, yeah, it was, like, a cultural sensation that she was just, like, showing her bra like that. Anyway, so this seems like the next kind of evolution of that. And then my third, because as the New York Times knows, three is a trend. Three is a trend, and I now have four, thanks to Ashish. But my third one is Alexa Chung in Chloe at the Vogue by GQ BAFTA after party. And this was not so much as a diaper, but it was a teeny, tiny, little baby blue romper with a lot of, like, lacy ruffles. That belt, I don't know, Like a weird Victorian antique photo. Yeah. Bloomer, but tiny. I don't know. It made me think of, like, baptismal outfits, if that kind of conjures it in people's minds. But I just thought it was so specifically baby that it was very striking. And there's just something very interesting to me about women choosing to infantilize themselves at this particular time in history. Very troubling, obviously. Very concerning, too. On the nose with what's happening politically, but I don't know, like, a very interesting reflection of that. And it's the same kind of thing for me with the panniers, which I Learned recently on YouTube. I'm saying wrong.
- [33:55]
Jessica Defino
They're paniers.
- [33:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Panniers.
- [33:57]
Jessica Defino
Wow.
- [33:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Someone yelled at me on YouTube.
- [33:59]
Jessica Defino
It's good to know.
- [34:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't. Yeah, it's good to know. And I also kind of don't really.
- [34:03]
Jessica Defino
Care, you know, what you're talking about.
- [34:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You get what I'm saying? It's the panniers. But it's a similar thing to me where it's, like, the choice to, like, entrap yourself in a garment, like, to put yourself in this kind of literal cage. And the corsetry, too, is like. Like, I don't know. It seems like a very literal interpretation of what's happening to us culturally in a way where it's like, why not do the opposite?
- [34:26]
Jessica Defino
This is kind of how I feel about, like, I guess, ready to wear versus, like, Runway or. I don't know if those are the right terms, but just, like, a lot of fashion on the Runway today, I could see being, like, art being like, a very, like, you know, cutting commentary of the day, but as, like, when it gets translated into just, like, wearable Stuff that people are just wearing every day without considering, like, oh, what. What comment was this? Trying to make it, like, sort of, like, negates all of that.
- [35:01]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [35:01]
Jessica Defino
I felt. I mean, I felt that way about. Which I'll talk about later. The Margiela Runway, the couture, like, from, like, late 2023, with the porcelain doll makeup and the merkins and, like, incredible. I thought that was an incredible work of high art. Ex. Exactly. And then seeing elements of that just worn every day without the critique, without just being like, oh, I actually just really want my face to look like a porcelain doll just saddens me.
- [35:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Even with Pat McGrath starting to sell that gel that makes your face look like that, I was like, that's such an interesting trickle down from that, like, this beautiful conceptual baby doll thing. And then people don't actually want to look that way. I don't know. Very interesting people do.
- [35:49]
Jessica Defino
I've been like. I've had a story in the works about that for, like, literally over a year now. I've been waiting. I was waiting on it until she put that product out. Because when the Margiela Runway happened, she was like, stay tuned.
- [36:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's coming soon.
- [36:01]
Jessica Defino
It's coming soon. So I was like, waiting, waiting, waiting. And now it's out, and I, like, missed the moment. But I'm still gonna go back because there's unfortunately so much more happening with the doll aesthetic still. So.
- [36:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And maybe this tighty whitey thing feeds into the doll aesthetic as well. I don't know. And I also just wanted to add, I think we've talked about on the podcast before, but maybe for those who are new listeners or, like, don't get, like, where this. This type of stuff comes from is, like, a core tenant of my newsletter. And what I think about a lot and what I write about a lot is that Hollywood steals all its best fashion ideas from, like, king subcultures and, like, sexual fetishes. So adult baby is not surprising to me. I've been kind of like. I feel like it's been on the periphery for a minute. Julia Fox used to do a lot of vaguely adult baby type stuff. So I've been sensing it for a moment. I mean, on this podcast, obviously, we've talked about furries. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which, by the way, I should say I have a couple of readers who are furries who want me to point out that that being a furry is not inherently sexual. It is a lifestyle that transcends just the sexual component.
- [37:13]
Jessica Defino
Okay.
- [37:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I think that's a very Valid point. And I totally get what they're coming from. I obviously always focus on the sexual component because that is what is informing celebrity fashion. Because the point of celebrity fashion. Well, one of the big points is to shock an outrage. And the easiest way to shock an outrage is to pull from sexual subcultures that are peripheral to like the mainstream and that people are. Have weird, you know, pearl clutching reactions. Do.
- [37:38]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [37:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So adult babies. Yeah. To me is a logical evolution of all of that.
- [37:43]
Jessica Defino
Makes a lot of sense.
- [37:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And then another little trendlet I've been noticing lately, which maybe is also kind of, you know, a response to what I'm talking about with the build a body era and all these panniers and such, is a lot of big shapes. We are seeing big shapes on the red carpet in a way that I have like trouble kind of of articulating. It's like very abstract, it's very geometric. And it's just truly like fashion intentionally ignoring all real human body shapes to just create its own version, if that makes sense to people. Like, you know, build a body to me is very much characterized by like cartoonish stereotypical curves. Like, it's taking the woman's body and it's. It's pushing it to its extreme. So you have these pointed cone bras, you have these elaborate padded hips. Right. Like it's kind of hyper femme. Whereas these big shapes are just kind of like, what is a body? Like, never seen one. Don't care. Like, gonna do whatever I wanted. And I started thinking about this at the Marc Jacobs show because we saw a lot of female celebrities wearing a look from his last looks from his last collection at the show. And I was thinking about like, wow, it's crazy. You literally never see anyone wearing that collection on the street. Like, they're. And they're kind of like voluminous cabbage patch doll clothing is how I would describe it. Like very vaguely in the shape of a body, but like very much cartoon. Yeah. Like illustrated almost idea of clothing not. Not so far off from the babies above that I talked about above. Something similar going on there. But then, yeah, it kind of. So from the Marc Jacobs show, it was still vaguely in the shape of a human body, but you kind of have these like silly pointed platform high heels or, you know, something that's a cardigan but like stands two feet off the body.
- [39:40]
Jessica Defino
Like paper doll.
- [39:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Paper doll clothes. Yeah. And so it started there and then I started noticing, yeah, just full geometry happening on the red carpet for Sus. And it all seems to be coming from Louis Vuitton, for the most part, which I also think is kind of bizarre, but.
- [39:55]
Jessica Defino
Oh, interesting.
- [39:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. That's something I noticed in just, like, writing down the credits for all these looks. I'm like, oh, again, custom Louis Vuitton. Custom Louis Vuitton. It started with Ariana Grande at the Palm Springs International Film Festival. She wore custom Louis Vuitton in this sort of like, mint green silver dress where the skirt looked to me like a deflated yoga ball. It even had, like, kind of the ridges that you would find on, like, those fitness balls at the gym, you know? And my note at the time in my newsletter was pump it up. Like, it looks a little deflated. Like, I would actually love to see this at max volume. Like, full circle. Yeah, so that was the first one, and I don't know, it was so out of character for Ariana, but she has been wearing all these big piniers, so I was like, okay, like, I see the extension of that, but I thought it was kind of a one off. And then at the Critics Choice Awards, we get Hannah Einbender again in custom Louis Vuitton in this. This dark green dress that's like fitted to the waist and then goes straight out into a big hoop and then directly down from the hoop. So to me, it looks very much like a. Oh, yes. Mid century modern kind of like light fixture situation. And I thought, again, I loved that dress, but, like, very strange, very specific. We get Lisa Rinna, who's a former Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
- [41:15]
Jessica Defino
I loved this one.
- [41:16]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I'm absolutely.
- [41:17]
Jessica Defino
I screenshot it and sent it to my best friend immediately.
- [41:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I am truly, genuinely obsessed with this outfit. I think she looks so good in it. I think it is so cool. She went to the Victor and Rolf show during Paris Fashion Week in a look by the brand that. But yeah, it's basically. How to explain. It's an upside down cone. So basically, like a big circle platter is around her head, and then it goes down into her waist and it's all covered in, like, huge polka dots. And she was wearing this, like, bright red Ronald McDonald wig. So it looked very like, clown. I call it clown couture.
- [41:50]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [41:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But that was, like, a crazy shape to throw, especially for, like, who she is.
- [41:57]
Jessica Defino
Oh, yeah.
- [41:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And like, the figure she is in this world. And then like, right after that, I see Janelle Monae. I think it was at a Grammys after party. I'm not sure who made the look, but it was an upside down pyramid suit. And it was a very similar thing to The Lisa Rena, where it was a triangle around her head that goes straight down into the waist. And it. Yeah, it's an upside down pyramid and it was covered in plaid, but just like. Yeah. Completely subverting the body. Like, it is completely asexual in this really interesting way that we don't usually see also with, like, women, especially famous women's clothing. And then even just last night, I was covering the SAG Awards for paid subscribers, and Daniel Deadweiler also showed up in custom Louis Vuitton. And this dress, I genuinely don't know how to explain. It's bright red. And the closest I can explain is it looks like if you took a bowl and then you stacked another bowl on top of it, like rim to rim, and then you picture. And then you did that again. That's the dress.
- [42:56]
Jessica Defino
Oh.
- [42:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So, yeah. Very in and out, in and out again, big hoops around it. I'm actually just remembering there was another woman at the SAG Wars. I can't remember who it was, but she had a similar thing where she had this really, like liquid metal dress almost that was like totally to the body. And then randomly at the bottom of the skirt, it had like a big structured hoop. So the skirt came out into a perfect hoop and then went back in. And I was like, what is go. What's going on? Like, why is this.
- [43:24]
Jessica Defino
I just looked up the picture of the Danielle Deadweiler look.
- [43:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Do you get what I'm saying?
- [43:28]
Jessica Defino
Which I like. And you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of those dog toys that are shaped like this and you put peanut butter in it.
- [43:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Kong.
- [43:35]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [43:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, totally. It's very Kong. Oh, my God. And now you just reminded me. Cause you said that we also. Because I called something else a Kong recently, which was Anya Taylor Joy wore a fur coat from Alexander McQueen that looks like a furry Kong. It looks like a Kong Did a collaboration with Uggs. And she is. Yeah, she's where her head is. Where the peanut butter would go. Yeah. I also. That's the thing is I love all these looks. I think they're super interesting and they're very. They feel modern to me in a way that fashion hasn't felt modern in a very long time. Like, and maybe that's just like a new idea. Like, fashion is very repetitive and really likes to reference itself. And this does not feel like, like the one to one references we've seen in the past. And maybe it's just that, like, comes.
- [44:23]
Jessica Defino
Up for me is like, I love a lot of these looks. There's so much volume. They're giant. The shoulders are big. These people are taking up a lot of space. And like, what I'm bristling at is just that fashion refuses really to dress people who actually take up a lot of space.
- [44:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [44:41]
Jessica Defino
It is chic in a certain size. I mean, that's the whole ethos of the build a body era.
- [44:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, you have to be as small as possible to be as big as.
- [44:48]
Jessica Defino
Possible before you're allowed to do this with your clothes. But if someone does this with their body, it's shamed. But I think the actual outfits themselves are really very interesting. And I feel like it would be amazing if all body types had access to this type of thing.
- [45:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally agree. At the same time that these feel like feats of construction and architecture, there is this kind of. That was one of my first impressions and definitely my readers kind of first response to these looks as well is like, how insulting to plus size people. So, like you're saying so you can make clothes that will fit us. Yes.
- [45:26]
Jessica Defino
It reminds me of, like, that. I think it was Em Rada on the COVID of I don't remember.
- [45:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. With the giant pants.
- [45:31]
Jessica Defino
Giant pants.
- [45:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And it's like the before and after pants.
- [45:34]
Jessica Defino
So designers can make pants this big?
- [45:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right.
- [45:38]
Jessica Defino
Why not for people who need them.
- [45:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And of course they can. I mean, that is like the. I don't know how fashion has managed to perpetuate this myth that they, like, can't, or it's more expensive for them for some reason, but it would be like pennies on the dollar. Like it's truly nothing to them to extend a size to make more fabric. Especially considering the way that fashion brands do plus size fashion, which is just kind of like add inches on. Like, they're not designing it for bigger bodies, actually. They're just like tacking on inches in a weird way that doesn't actually work for bigger bodies. So they could definitely do it. And yeah, this whole trend is just proving just how easy it is for them to actually do it. But I guess kind of my preliminary. Another preliminary thought that I had about all this is that the looks really reminded me of the novella Flatland, which I don't know if people are familiar with that.
- [46:27]
Jessica Defino
I'm not familiar.
- [46:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. I question my own brain of why I'm familiar with this novella. I think it's just because I went to a weirdo liberal arts college that people were reading things like this. But Flatland is a satirical novella that was written in 1884 and it's set in a two dimensional world inhabited by geometric shapes. And it was meant to be like a social commentary on the hierarchy of Victorian culture at the time. And I, I do think it's interesting the way that like all of my research and all of my fashion trends keep tying back into Victorian culture over and over, like a dark foreboding trend that I'm noticing here, but I do think it's interesting. But then I was kind of just skimming the Wikipedia for the book today and I noticed they, they described it and I just wanted to describe it for people because I think it's a little too on the nose and I think maybe it'll add a new dimension to what we're seeing out there with these like big shape fashions. But on Wikipedia it says, in Flatland, Abbott describes a society rigidly divided into classes. Social ascent is the main aspiration of its inhabitants, apparently granted to everyone, but strictly controlled by the top of the hierarchy. Freedom is despised and the laws are cruel. Innovators are imprisoned or suppressed. Members of lower classes who are intellectually valuable and potential leaders of riots are either killed or promoted to the higher classes. Every attempt for change is considered dangerous and harmful. The world is not prepared to receive, quote, revelations from another world.
- [47:54]
Jessica Defino
I feel like I need to read this.
- [47:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, it's like considered a great philosophical framework. I think it went on to form a lot of other philosophers work, which is why it's kind of a relevant novella that keeps floating around.
- [48:09]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, that sounds incredible. I've been looking for more dystopian sort of literature that touches on beauty culture because I think I was just commissioned to write sort of like a beauty 20 years in the future type piece. And so I'm thinking about that and I'm like, I need to revisit some old literature. Maybe I'll add this to the mix.
- [48:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I feel like the old literature too also always has like crazy relevant ideas for the now in a way.
- [48:41]
Jessica Defino
I know, because you realize like, oh, wow, that actually came to pass.
- [48:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:45]
Jessica Defino
Okay. I need to vent about Republican makeup, please. So I'm sure if you're on social media, people have like seen some of the posts about Republican makeup. Like making fun of Republican makeup.
- [49:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I mean, I accidentally deleted my TikTok and I'm still familiar with this, this trending conversation.
- [49:07]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. I think it started, I was doing some research. This influencer, Suzanne Lambert, on TikTok, started talking about Republican makeup. She described it as like drained, dusty and matte. So like the idea is that Republican makeup is, like, overdone and under blended. It's like very conspicuous, cakey foundation, like obvious contour, overlined lips, like the giant blocky, like, drawn on eyebrows, kind of like severe all around the eye. Eyeliner. It's like the makeup version of Mar a Lago face.
- [49:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [49:41]
Jessica Defino
I think some examples are like, Nancy Mace, who's the South Carolina representative, Carolyn Leavitt, the press secretary, Kristi Noem, the governor of South Dakota. And like, this trend of, like, making fun of Republican makeup really has been just, like, covered everywhere. Like, it's Washington Post, New York magazine. And I. I think I'm still working through my thoughts here, but something about it just, like, really rubs me the wrong way. Like, I feel like none of the analysis of what's actually happening here is, like, going deep enough because I think if we, like, followed this argument to its logical conclusion, like, a lot of, like, liberal or left or progressive women would be uncomfortable with it and would be forced to reconsider their own cosmetic signaling.
- [50:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure.
- [50:29]
Jessica Defino
And so it's just like this thing has just sort of landed on the surface of, like, let's make fun of Republican women for doing their makeup poorly.
- [50:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, and it's your, like, morality as beauty standards thing again, of course.
- [50:41]
Jessica Defino
Completely. But I think, like, okay, yes, this is a prominent look among a certain type of public facing Republican woman.
- [50:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
They're wrong in identifying the trend of, like, how those ladies are doing their makeup. You know what I mean? Like, on a very surface level, it's like, yeah, that is some of the trends I'm seeing.
- [50:59]
Jessica Defino
I think there's. That's happening in a lot of other places too. Like, I'm thinking of like, the bimbo feminist, or I'm thinking of like, like Madonna who's, like, endorsed Kamala, or I mean, to me, it's very like, 2010s Kardashian fate, which, like, at the time was associated with like, a sort of girl boss liberal ideology. But I mean, things change, but.
- [51:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. I was just gonna say, like, in that way, it kind of just speaks to, like, it's just dated. So it's like. Right. You just aren't keeping up with the current beauty standards, and therefore you're worthy of, like, our mockery. Because you can't, like, evolve with how your face should look now versus how it should have looked then.
- [51:37]
Jessica Defino
Exactly. Yeah. And it just like. Like, it's obviously just not a coherent political stance, but there's like, a lot of little parts of it that are tripping me up. So like one. I do think there's a line that can be drawn here between, like, white supremacy or like, rich supremacy or like oligarchy of billionaires versus meritocracy. Like, some people are just born into power and influence, even if they're bad at what they do. And I think there could be something here. Like, what we're pointing out is that these women in power aren't particularly skilled and don't feel the need to be skilled because they have power.
- [52:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [52:14]
Jessica Defino
So if that's the case, like, if that's what we're getting at, I feel like pointing to their failures as government representatives and they're a little more powerful. Yeah. Is more effective than pointing out their makeup.
- [52:25]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, for sure.
- [52:26]
Jessica Defino
I also think there's like a through line with Republican attacks, obviously on gender affirming care.
- [52:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Definitely.
- [52:32]
Jessica Defino
Like pointing out the irony that these women are applying their gender signals every day and yet they're so opposed to trans people being able to aesthetically communicate their gender to other people. But again, in that case, I also think it's just more effective to, like, point to the abuses of power and the intended genocide of trans people and like, the inhumane and dehumanizing policies rather than, like, the makeup of it.
- [52:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But it's so much easier to just make fun of their appearance.
- [52:59]
Jessica Defino
Exactly. Exactly. So then again, what this critique is saying is like, like that makeup worn in a certain way and for a certain purpose is a form of gendered subservience and like an aesthetic signal of a conservative agenda to push traditional gender norms and what a woman should look like, what a man should look like, or what they're interested in. And like, with that, I would mostly agree with that, but it just doesn't seem like people are willing to go there again because we would have to examine our own behaviors. Like, the facial harmony piece, again, comes back into it. And like you said, it's a big part of, like, this morality of beauty thing. Like, studies show that people judge those who wear overt cosmetics, like makeup or tanner or like obvious plastic surgery as being morally inferior. So that is what liberals are doing here. Like, Right. We are playing right into this moralization of beauty things. And like, generally, I just think we should be trying to move away from appearance based moral judgments.
- [54:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. I think it's kind of. I think it's this thinking of, like, well, the Republicans go low and they make fun of this stuff. So, like, we fight fire with fire. Like, we have to match them. And it's like, actually, like, if you could go A step beyond and evaluate where that comes from and why you do that, it might actually result in more deeper change and lasting change.
- [54:22]
Jessica Defino
And because, like, this is the evil genius of the conservative agenda is that when you do try to match them on this level, you're acting. Actually reinforcing that ideology and making it.
- [54:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Stronger and that behavior. Yeah, totally.
- [54:35]
Jessica Defino
And then I think we. We have to look at, like, the other side of things, which is, like, you pointed out, part of why this look is being made fun of is because it's, like, a little passe. So, like, in Western liberal culture, the trendy look right now is the opposite of Republican makeup. It's natural, it's dewy, it's undetectable. And, like, this is not any better, right?
- [54:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally.
- [54:58]
Jessica Defino
Like I pointed out in the Facial Harmony article, like, our move toward natural and undetectable cosmetics, like skincare instead of makeup, tweakments instead of obvious surgery, is, like, 100% influenced by the political climate. Like, it's proving our biological superiority, like, our. And our moral superiority.
- [55:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. And they're doing it so overtly that we're like, ew, that's disgusting. Like, you should be getting away with it. Like, you should be. It should be so subtle. No one will ever clock you.
- [55:26]
Jessica Defino
It actually, like, takes more work and more investment in the cosmetic space to conceal all of that labor. It really reminds me, I interviewed this philosopher, Claire Chambers, who wrote a book called Intact A Defense of the Unmodified Body. And she has some really interesting thoughts in there about natural makeup, where, like, when she started writing this book, she was like, well, natural makeup must be a little bit better, because it's not trying to, like, obviously change the body in any type of way. But the more she was researching it, the more she found that particularly, like, insidious and powerful in saying, like, this is what you should look like, and you should not look like you're trying.
- [56:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And just creates this new, weird. Like. I don't know. The first thing that comes to my mind is the way that men talk about, like, oh, I want a girl who's, like, naturally beautiful. And it's like, their definition of naturally beautiful actually is so much makeup. Yeah. So much work, so much maintenance. And just because they don't see it, they're like, no, that's good.
- [56:23]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [56:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And it's like, okay, okay.
- [56:25]
Jessica Defino
Completely. Yeah. It's about, like, concealing the effort that you put in as well, which is the same as, like, all sorts of, like, gendered labor and capitalism, which is absolutely.
- [56:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Women should always Conceal the effort and the labor child rearing. It should look effortless, it should look natural.
- [56:42]
Jessica Defino
It's natural for a woman.
- [56:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. You were born to be a mother. Yeah, totally.
- [56:46]
Jessica Defino
So it's like if we were to follow this line of thinking of critiquing Republican makeup, we would have to turn it towards ourselves always or not even yourself. If you're not someone who like really pays attention to beauty, you'd have to turn it toward the other side of things and be like. Your allies and comrades on the left are also part of this huge system of beauty culture that people just aren't really paying attention to in a meaningful way.
- [57:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And it's not the easy black and white good, bad dichotomy that makes us feel good about ourselves. So it's like, well, we don't want to engage in that. We're having fun dunking on them looking ugly. Why would we interrogate our own behavior? It also, it's very interesting to me. I don't know. And there's something about like, here is a woman who's an elected governmental official and like, our problem with her is that she's not. She hasn't watched enough like makeup YouTube tutorials to like do her makeup. Well, like, why is that a requirement of being a professional woman, I guess is my, like, why is that a metric trick by which anyone is being evaluated when their job is not makeup?
- [57:57]
Jessica Defino
I feel like the CUT headline, the Cut wrote about this and I think their headline was something like republicans need to get some beauty blenders or something. But it, yeah, it was just like.
- [58:07]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Nice spawn con slipped in there too. Get yourself a beauty blender that we've affiliate linked here and we will get 20% of the revenue from you, you conservatives.
- [58:18]
Jessica Defino
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
- [58:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Get this better contour stick from makeup by Mario and then we'll respect you.
- [58:23]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. The problem is you need better products. The problem is you need to conceal all the labor. And that's the other thing that bothers me is like this focus on output of what the aesthetic labor ends up looking like versus input. Because on both sides, at all points on the political spectrum, if you're engaging in beauty, whether it's like super overt like Republican makeup or the undetectable era. Now, like, the input, I think is what is important. How much of our time, money, energy, effort, headspace are like women in particular and gender non conforming people and trans people forced to put into maintaining a certain look in order to just like access basic human treatment. Like, input is what is shocking to Me, no matter what that looks like on the other side.
- [59:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally.
- [59:13]
Jessica Defino
So, yeah, I still got to think.
- [59:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
About it, but a lot of good thoughts. Lots of things percolating there. No, I appreciate it. That was very interesting. Something I've been also percolating on, I guess, is, you know, as we continue to descend into a fascist nation, I don't know, the conversation I find myself and my friends continue to have is kind of like, what do you do? Like, what is effective? What is your role? And I don't know, it's like, beyond kind of like, well, we're artists and writers, and you continue to create art and you write and you speak truth to people. You create community through your work, I guess is one answer. But another thing I've been thinking a lot is about economic strategies and what you do with your money and where you put your money. And obviously, I think a lot of. A lot of people know that, but I just don't think we're realizing. I think we're only beginning at the tip of the iceberg to realize just how powerful and effective a movement like that could be. And over the last couple of months, I've seen a couple of results of that and kind of these movements towards boycotting different corporations. And I just wanted to highlight that and kind of talk about where that comes from a little bit and how it could be used maybe more effectively moving forward. Because I think. I think it is kind of all we have. I don't know if people kind of get that, but, like, really, money is what changes things, and the withholding of money is what changes things. And that's really all that you can do in the face of fascism, to make a statement is withhold the dollar. Yeah. So I agree also. Just I looked at this statistic. Consumer spending makes up almost 70% of America's GDP, which is wild. Crazy.
- [61:00]
Jessica Defino
I read that in the notes, and then I was like, this reminds me of something I just read. So I'm. I just finished reading this book called Meat Market Female Flesh Under Capitalism by Lori Penny. And in the introduction, she says, over 80% of everything that is sold in developed countries is bought by women.
- [61:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Wow.
- [61:19]
Jessica Defino
Isn't that wild?
- [61:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [61:21]
Jessica Defino
Like, that's just an alarming and startling statistic. And the point that she goes on to make throughout the book is like, if that's where we have our power, like, that's where we can exercise our resistance, right?
- [61:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Let's use it. Let's leverage it a hundred percent. And that's my feeling as well, is like, if that if this is where the power is coming from and if this is what moves everything, like, why aren't we trying to think of ways. And why aren't we looking to the past and how boycotts were used in the past to think of how to best leverage our money and to make the results happen that we want to happen? So, yeah, part of this was also. I mean, I think everyone who's on social media right now has probably heard this at this point, but I. It started I was thinking about the Montgomery bus boycott, and, like, part of why it was successful in. In ending segregation laws and bringing about the civil rights movement is that it almost bankrupted the city of Montgomery in the process of this boycott. The boycott lasted for a little over a year until the. The federal ruling that was Browder versus Gale took effect and led to the United States Supreme Court decision that declared Alabama and Montgomery laws, that segregated buses were unconstitutional. And obviously, that kicks off a larger civil rights movement.
- [62:26]
Jessica Defino
Right.
- [62:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But this boycott, yeah. Kind of crippled the economy of Montgomery for years straight. And. And before that, what's. What set the precedence for the Montgomery bus boycott was the Baton Rouge bus boycott, which people don't talk about as much because it wasn't. It wasn't. It was effective, but it wasn't. It didn't get gains in civil rights on quite the scale that Montgomery did. So people often focus on the Montgomery bus. Quote, caught first. But Baton Rouge really set the foundation. In Baton Rouge at the time, 28% of the population was black, and 80% of the city's bus riders were black.
- [63:01]
Jessica Defino
Oh, wow.
- [63:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But despite that, under Jim Crow laws, they were banned from sitting in the front of the bus, Even though the 80% of them were the ones taking the bus. And then bus fares at the time were raised by 5 cents, which started the complaints and then kind of led to this boycott. There were a number of series events, but that was part of it. And I was just. Because I was just thinking about, like, the MTA raising subway prices here and stuff and, like, murdering people for jumping turnstiles.
- [63:28]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my goodness.
- [63:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And. Yeah, I don't know. And there just seems like such a direct parallel to that to me that. Yeah.
- [63:34]
Jessica Defino
Oh, completely.
- [63:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And so the Baton Rouge bus boycott lasted for a week, and it was really spearheaded by churches, as was the Montgomery bus boycott. And they quickly organized to create a free ride system that provided people with transportation that just basically carpooling. So people are offering up their personal cars to give people rides to work and creating their own bus system, essentially. Honestly, and because people were providing their personal vehicles for this, the churches began basically crowdfunding money to pay for their gas and the maintenance expenses that they would endure because of the use of their cars by just passing around collection plates on Sunday day. And the. The Baton Rouge bus company was losing around $1,600 a day the week that the boy. Which is. Yeah. Enormous. And so out of that they got some rights, which was basically first come, first serve seating on the bus is the success of that, of that boycott. And so then Montgomery used that as the template for their own boycott, studying, like, what did and didn't work about it. And basically the year long boycott of the Montgomery bus system was so economically devastating, like beyond almost bankrupting the city, basically the local government tried all these different ways to legislate prices before they could acquiesce to, like, any of the civil rights demands. So because of the carpooling, the city started putting pressure on local insurance companies to stop insuring cars used in the carpool.
- [65:05]
Jessica Defino
Whoa.
- [65:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And they were effective in that. And so the boycott leaders arranged their own insurance policies through Lloyd's of London for these vehicles. Yeah. Black taxi drivers in the city were charging customers 10 cents per ride in solidarity with the. With the boycott, because 10 cents was how much it cost to ride a bus. Oh. And city officials found out about that and they started fining any. Any cab driver who charged a rider less than 45 cents. Sense. And just another example of the incredible organizing power of this movement is people were walking so much to and from their jobs and to get wherever because they weren't using buses, that the churches started collecting new and slightly used shoes in order to replace their footwear so that they would be able to continue walking. And of course, I mean, much as we've seen today, it's always like, you make progress, you go back 100 years in history. So at the time that this. Over the course of this boycott happening over the year and over the course of, like the rise of the civil rights movement, you get the White Citizens Council, which is exactly as racist as it sounds like such an organization would be. So over the course of this year, you see the White Citizens Council double in membership. And they are also very much responsible for inciting violence. They would regularly attack protesters, attack people walking, and they also firebombed the homes of Martin Luther King Jr. And the Civil rights activist Ralph Abernathy. And yeah, I just have. All of that has been making me think about our own economic power and the power of community to kind of counteract this stuff and how invested these corporations and the Internet at large is at divvying us up and making sure that we don't have that community and we don't have those local resources. And even to the point that we obviously don't even have local stores anymore because of these big box change. And that is very intentional because you can't shop local. Right. You have to go to these places to buy your stuff. Like beyond the convenience of it all, there kind of like is no recourse. But like, the more that you strengthen your community bonds, the more that you strengthen these kind of like local ties and you can inform each other like the more powerful the stuff like this becomes. So I started looking at kind of like, you know, just like I knew anecdotally kind of I had heard stories about like big corporations struggling under DEI rollbacks and stuff and like people boycotting them. And so I just started digging in a little bit to kind of like how the economics of this year have gone so far. Mind you, we're two months into the year.
- [67:35]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [67:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But it's not good. Yeah, we're not doing so well. So this month Reuters reported that US retail sales dropped by the most in nearly two years. In January. It's like 0.9%. Retail sales dropped 0.9%, which is the biggest decrease since March 2023. Of course, all of these news stories are kind of like couched as like, oh, we don't really know yet what's happening. It just might be a one off. They kind of blame snow.
- [68:05]
Jessica Defino
Snow?
- [68:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, all the snow. The wildfires and confusion over tariffs for like, why people aren't shopping. But to me it's like, yes. But also I think there's something broader culturally at play here.
- [68:19]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [68:19]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Where people are, I mean, first of all, scared of this administration, scared of the like economic completely collapse that I think everyone has kind of thought was coming since the pandemic, you know, beyond. I just feel like we're all kind of holding our breath, waiting for the other shoe to drop. And that kind of also explains like what's going on here with the hesitancy and people not wanting to spend money. U.S. store closures. Yeah, I feel it for sure. U.S. store closures in 2025 are expected to double from last year with an estimated 15,000 stores closing, compared to 7,325 in 2024. Yeah. And that's also those closings are happening as the rate of shop openings also continues to decline in kind of like an unprecedented way. Already just two months in, we've had more than 2,000 stores close.
- [69:11]
Jessica Defino
Wow.
- [69:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And again, economists are saying these are deceptive numbers. Like actually spending is very strong and.
- [69:18]
Jessica Defino
Like there's no were saying about the economy for the past like two years. And people were like, no, it's actually really bad. Like our numbers say it's great.
- [69:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So it's almost like some of this is dub. It's almost like money is a little bit fictional. But anyway, all of this is happening and at the same time we're, we're starting to see the impact of these kind of like targeted boycotts and like no spend campaigns at different retailers. Earlier this year, Target announced that it's rolling back its DEI efforts. Which I, it's like I've been saying.
- [69:57]
Jessica Defino
Like I was like years ago, I wrote this because Walmart had done this huge push. It's in its beauty section for black owned beauty brands.
- [70:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [70:06]
Jessica Defino
And I, I have to find the article. It's years ago now. But I was just like, this is just a front facing look at where they're sending their money on the back end. And every dollar that you spend there to support a black owned brand is actually hurting black people and people of color in other ways. And.
- [70:25]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, yeah. And I, it's like so obvious, like the way that these companies are trying to like ride the cultural tides. You know, it's like they saw what happened after George Floyd and they were like, oh, we gotta get to business. Like we gotta start pretending that we care about all these DEI initiatives and black people for the first time ever, whatever. And now it's like Trump's in office and they're like, oh, okay, like we gotta get on with the MAGA side. Like we. And they're just like flipping and flopping back and forth, which is like bad for business in my opinion, on all sides. Like, you know, like also like, why are we announcing this stuff? I don't know. Like if you're gonna be evil and do evil, try to pretend you're not. Like, try to hide it somehow. Try to couch it in the glory. Yeah, they want the glory on all.
- [71:06]
Jessica Defino
Ends that like the majority of Americans are MAGA now. And so they will win over more people by making these large announcements.
- [71:16]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Hopping on the bandwagon for sure. But they're not spoiler, they're alienating customers. So yeah, after Target announced that it was rolling back its DEI efforts, there were calls for boycotts among civil rights leaders and black clergy members as well. And the following week after those calls for Boycotts foot traffic fell 4% year over year in Target stores, and then the week after that, another 8.6%. And it's continued to see a decline again. The economists are telling me that, you know, that there could be snow, there could be blizzards. That could be accounting or the. You don't know what this is. But I do think it's notable.
- [71:55]
Jessica Defino
I mean, anecdotally, my mom even mentioned this to me the other day, and, like, throughout her life, I wouldn't say she's been, like, the most politically involved person, but, like, we were talking about where I'm gonna go buy cat litter. And, like, don't go to Target. Don't do Amazon. They're getting rid of their dei. Like, let's research Chewy and see if they're getting rid of their initiatives. And I was like, wow, this movement is, like, really reaching the people.
- [72:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, it's starting to infiltrate, I think, in a different way than it has in the past, and hopefully a more powerful way. Yeah, Walmart also. Walmart, of. Of course, Walmart also rolled back its. Its DEI initiatives. No surprise there. And it has also seen a decline in foot traffic, although a little less dramatic than targets. It fell 2.7% year over year as Target's initial fall, and then another 2.9% the following week, and is also continuing to decline. Walmart, Target, and Amazon have also seen their shares decline this month.
- [72:50]
Jessica Defino
Wow.
- [72:51]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And then meanwhile, Costco, who has resisted all pressures to drop its DI initiatives from, like, all fronts, including its own shareholders, has seen its traffic rise year over year during that exact same period.
- [73:04]
Jessica Defino
Even when there was snow.
- [73:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, even despite the snow, despite the wildfires, somehow Costco customers made it out. And the same period that those stores faced decline that first week, it went up 5.8%, then 5.7%, and is continuing to rise. And, yeah, I don't think those numbers are random. I don't think they're unrelated. And then, of course, Tesla is tanking in a delicious way, but surprisingly not tanking so much in America as they are overseas, which I just think kind of is demonstrative of maybe, like, America's weird tolerance for Nazism that, like, Europe does not have.
- [73:45]
Jessica Defino
Right.
- [73:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I think. Well, let me give you some numbers that I think maybe articulate that a little. A little more specifically. So the company registered fewer cars in California in all four quarters of 2024, as sales of its Model 3 plunged 36% for the year. But in just in California, which obviously California kind of leads electric vehicle sales in the nation. So that's significant. But then meanwhile, according to Fortune magazine, in Germany, where Tesla was the longtime electric vehicle sales leader, its sales declined 60% in January. I think that's incredible. That's great that that's a nation responding to a Nazi salute. You know what I mean? They're like, no, I don't. I don't think so, sir. Yeah. So In January, just 1,277 registrations of new Teslas purchased. And Germany is Europe's biggest car market, so that's extremely significant. And then in, in, I believe Europe's maybe like second biggest car or certainly another top market is France. And the Tesla sales were also down 63% in France, and they dropped 8% in the UK year over year in January, even as all electric vehicle sales rose 21% of the British new car market.
- [75:02]
Jessica Defino
So it's like specifically Tesla not wanting to buy a Tesla.
- [75:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, it's specifically not wanting to be affiliated with Elon Musk, which is a really beautiful thing. And then a story that just came out last week in Axios, Axios took a poll of kind of like, how, how shoppers across the political spectrum were, like, spending their money and if they were kind of trying to choose brands or not, that, like, aligned with those political values. And they found that half of Democrats indicated that they had shifted their spending entirely in the last few months to align with their morals, compared with 42% of Republicans.
- [75:37]
Jessica Defino
Wow. I feel like I just read something. I read it this morning. I can't remember where the original reporting was from, but I read a little blurb of it in After School by Casey Lewis about Gen Z kind of doubling down and aligning their spending with their moral values. And that made me feel very hopeful. I was like, that's exciting for sure.
- [76:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. I think also from the Axios article, they said around four out of 10Americans have changed their spending habits in the past few months to align with their moral view, which is, yeah, heartening, I guess, for once. And then all of this brings me kind of my final point. Probably the day that you're going to be listening to this podcast or this podcast comes out is February 28th. They're calling for an economic blackout in America. Basically just asking Americans to refrain from making any purchases at major retailers on that day. This boycott is being spearheaded by a group called the People's Union usa, which says it has no political affiliation, but focuses on, quote, fairness, economic justice, and real systemic change, end quote. And they're also planning additional blackouts aimed at Specific retailers like Amazon, which they want to boycott from March 7 to 14. And I don't know, I was just thinking about. I appreciate that sentiment so much and I get where they're coming from. But I again, I think we need to look back at Montgomery and Baton Rouge and we should have those boycotts educate us on like what works. And what works is something that is extremely targeted. And not only extremely targeted, but enduring, like with no end.
- [77:13]
Jessica Defino
I think I would also like not an economist here.
- [77:16]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, Also non economist, I should say deeply non economist.
- [77:20]
Jessica Defino
I'm less interested in like targeted boycotts than general divestment. Yeah. And then when, like when I speak about beauty, which is like the only industry I really know shit about, I like, boycotts are great if there's like a specific intended purpose that there's like a specific message you're trying to get or a specific action that you're trying to get that brand to take. But I do think that in our lives, the general American consumer has so much more room to just divest and stop spending like, yeah, indefinitely as much as we have spent. Like so many of our fashion and beauty purchases are not necessary and are just like our little treats or our little wants. And I think there's just a lot of room to just like kind of divest big time, like permanently from not only specific brands that are not aligned with our values, but like the industry as a whole and what it's telling us about how our body should look or smell or whatever.
- [78:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I agree there's a lot to think about. Your own personal spending habits and not only where you shop, but how much you're shopping, what you're consuming. I think all of that can be reevaluated in this time under Trump. But yeah, I would also just say like the threat of a boycott is its endurance. You know, how long are you not going to make money for as a company? How long is this going to. What are the ramifications of this? And a day is a great start, but a year, a year will put somebody out of business for the rest of time. You know what I mean?
- [78:57]
Jessica Defino
Amazon could just throw another prime day in the mix.
- [78:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [79:00]
Jessica Defino
Have like how many prime days do we have per year now? And they like always make these like.
- [79:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Record breaking problems and nothing seems to change. But yeah, we're in it for the long haul and the more that we can do that, I think the more scary it is. And also, even if it's targeted at one specific company, they become an example for everyone else. You know what I mean, if you tank Target, Walmart's watching, Amazon's watching. You know what I mean? And if you can kind of wield collectively that sort of economic devastation as a group. Yeah, it's very important. And I. Then I also think once we're able to do that, which is already, like a lofty goal, and I know asking a lot of Americans who, like, don't want to be hassled by this at all and just want to live their lives the way they've always lived it, but I think the question beyond, like, the sustained economic boycott is what do we want? Like, what are our demands? And let's start figuring them out now, you know, let's, like, if we can get this opportunity, let's not squander it, I guess.
- [79:58]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I love that.
- [80:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Thank you.
- [80:01]
Jessica Defino
To talk about something way less consequential.
- [80:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Please get me out of this.
- [80:08]
Jessica Defino
It's Fashion Week or we're in the midst of Fashion Month.
- [80:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Fashion Month. Fashion Year.
- [80:13]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. We've truly.
- [80:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It never ends, I guess we've only.
- [80:16]
Jessica Defino
Really had New York Fashion Week and we're just at the.
- [80:19]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, we're in the midst of London.
- [80:20]
Jessica Defino
Currently, and we still have Milan in Paris to go. But I've been looking at, at the beauty details from the shows to look at what's happening on the runways, beauty wise. So I picked out some favorite and least favorite trends that I'm seeing.
- [80:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I'm excited. I've been. Not really. I don't know. I'm bad at consuming Fashion Week content, to be honest. I let it kind of just wash over me.
- [80:45]
Jessica Defino
I think that's actually probably the smarter way to do it because so little of it actually hits long term.
- [80:51]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. Yeah, Little of it for the work that I do. So little of it actually manifests on Reddit. Red carpets are on real people. So I'll wait for it to come to me.
- [81:00]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Well, I remember writing like, Fashion Week coverage for the beauty section on the Zoe Report when I was like, on staff there, and it was just, you have to make something out of nothing just to get the article out. And so there's all of these articles that are like, trend Report. This is, this is happening. And none of it really.
- [81:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's what I, I love. I think that every time I see trend reports coming out is I, I recall myself working at all these publications just making stuff. Stuff up. Yeah. Just trying to meet a word quota. Trying to meet a trend quota and just being like, yeah, like, blue skirts are in, like, let's do it.
- [81:35]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Some of these might be like that. Like, for instance, one that I really loved was feathers. There's, like, feather beauty everywhere. I don't think that's gonna hit in real life. Like, I don't think people are gonna be doing much, but I think it's a brand called form. It's two Fs. F, F, O, R, M, E. You say that form.
- [81:53]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Form. I say it Form. But I'm also out here saying pannier. So what do I know about anything?
- [81:58]
Jessica Defino
On the form Runway, they used little feathers for, like, bangs and feather eyebrows. And I just thought it was so beautiful, you know, very artsy. I don't see it, like, making a.
- [82:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Big lash, but kind of like an extension of fur's back. You know, it's like, let's take another animal's pelt.
- [82:19]
Jessica Defino
Exactly. That's what I was thinking. There's so much. Yeah, there's a lot of, like, animal furs and feathers and details everywhere. But, yeah, the feathers specifically are at Form. Thom Browne did feather lashes.
- [82:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. I just always think, too, like, with animal. Any type of animal stuff coming into the culture, into trends, is also just very funny to me at a time of, like, ecological collapse.
- [82:47]
Jessica Defino
Oh.
- [82:48]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You know, to me, it's always like, right, of course, we're gesturing towards animals because we're not going to have them for a lot longer. And so, like, having animal products, in a way, is, like, kind of ultimate luxury, status symbol.
- [83:00]
Jessica Defino
Yes. Yeah. In a time of scarcity, it's a luxury.
- [83:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. I made. Years ago, I made a joke about this. I wrote a trend. Some, like, future Trend reports for InStyle Australia. And one of my kind of jokey, kind of not jokey trends was, like, extreme wetness. Because, like, we won't have clean water. We won't have clean drinking water anymore. So, like, being extremely drenched both in your beauty and in your fashion, like, clinging to your body, that is the moment.
- [83:26]
Jessica Defino
It's been the moment for.
- [83:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:28]
Jessica Defino
For years now. You're so accurate.
- [83:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Thank you so much.
- [83:33]
Jessica Defino
The other weird thing at Thom Browne, he had the feather lashes. This I did not love, but for not any particular reason, but lipstick that looks like mouth tape. Like, you know how mouth taping has been all the rage?
- [83:47]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [83:47]
Jessica Defino
Talking in real life. So Tom Brown showed lipstick that was, like, in a straight line down the center of the lip, like, starting right under the nose and going, like, halfway down the chin. And it just, like, looks like a little mouth tape before you go to bed. It was very morning shed adjacent.
- [84:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. You. You saying that has called to mind an image that I cannot place. Like, where do I know this from? But there's. There's, like, it wasn't in, like, the 1920s or something. There was, like, a lipstick look like that. There was an actress. Man, I can see her in my mind's eye, and I have absolutely no idea what her name is or, like, what I'm calling.
- [84:19]
Jessica Defino
And it was like the lipstick just focused in the center.
- [84:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [84:22]
Jessica Defino
Yes. I mean, is that very. Is that Clara Bow?
- [84:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Is that Clara Bow? Because that's what my instinct says. But that's so generic. That's, like, my generic 1920s actress reference. So I really don't know if that's true or not. I'm sure people out there know exactly who I'm talking about. But also, I saw you write this in the doc, and I was thinking, it's very funny that you say this, because literally yesterday I saw, like, an Instagram reel or something from Alex Earle's sister, whose name I don't know because I don't care enough to know. But she had posted something to her stories that was like, oh, well, first of all, she was wearing mouth tape, and the mouth tape looked like lips. Like, it was really, like, glossy pink, like, padded lips, but it was mouth tape over her real mouth. And then she had written on top of it, like, just ate an entire cake. So I taped my mouth shut and went to bed. And so it was both, like, pro Anna, but also, like, weird beauty standard, but also mouth tape lips. I don't know. It was, like, so layered. It was like, right. I should have sent it to you. It's right up your alley.
- [85:28]
Jessica Defino
I need to look this up. I mean, it's also just very much like we've been talking about, like, the under eye patches as status symbol. Like, the self as shown shelf.
- [85:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [85:38]
Jessica Defino
So, yeah, that was a. That was an interesting trend. Marc Jacobs. I'm calling it Pagliacci core. Okay. Clownish blush. It was Pat McGrath. She used fabric cutouts of, like, red circles and put them, like, right on the cheeks, like a little clown. I think this is just, like, the natural evolution of blush blindness and blush overload.
- [85:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But also clown couture.
- [86:00]
Jessica Defino
Clown couture. Very Lisa Rinna. Like, Lisa should put these little cheeks with her.
- [86:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
She needs them, her outfit.
- [86:07]
Jessica Defino
But it made me think. Last year, I wrote an article about, like, boy markers of boyhood trending and then being aestheticized. The boxer shorts were part of that. But one thing that I was talking about was boyfriend blush, which is just wearing your Blush the way a boy would. Natural ruddiness after playing rugby or whatever. But I was like, I feel like Thomas the Tank Engine Blush is next. Just like, big circle.
- [86:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, yes, I know, exactly.
- [86:35]
Jessica Defino
And this is that.
- [86:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And also a geometric shape, may I add. Yes.
- [86:40]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my God. It's all coming together.
- [86:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
We're going into this kind of. I don't know, because I was thinking of this with the fashion, too, but now that you bring it up with the beauty as well, we're going into this kind of, like, cubist era of, like, aesthetics. And it's like, I don't know enough about cubism to, like, pinpoint what's happening, why we care about that right now. But I do think it's interesting, this, like, abstracted.
- [86:59]
Jessica Defino
You gotta pitch it to the New York Times.
- [87:01]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Vision of the female form. I guess. So again, guys, you can email me, you know, you can. You can also solicit these ideas directly from me. Friends, since you're listening.
- [87:12]
Jessica Defino
There's also just, like, a general infantilization, as with adult baby diaper. Oh, again, that was on Ashish. Was the male model wearing this diaper sort of thing. But the other models in the Ashish show were wearing hair clips that are just those, like, refrigerator magnets that look like letters that kids play with. Like, you know, the multicolored letters, of course. So that's. That's like the new hair clip.
- [87:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Great. I love to be a baby.
- [87:40]
Jessica Defino
Everyone loves to be a baby. We all want to be a baby.
- [87:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Also makes sense in kind of, like, the face of, like, huge, overwhelming societal collapse that, like, you don't want to be the adult in the room anymore. You just want to be a little baby and everyone can take care of you and you don't have to, like, worry about this stuff, like, how much.
- [87:56]
Jessica Defino
Of nostalgia is just regressing, too.
- [87:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Childhood.
- [88:00]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Taking away our agency, Simone Rocha showed bags that are just stuffed animals, like a stuffed bunny. And you just, like a little stuffed animal.
- [88:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's extremely interesting in the light of the Balenciaga cancellation thing with the, like, S and M teddy bears.
- [88:16]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [88:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You know what I mean? I would feel like they would want to steer away from, like, any sort of childlike thing being incorporated into, like, adult.
- [88:24]
Jessica Defino
Right. Well, I feel like the difference is, like, they're. The Simone aesthetic is not sexual. It's very feminine, girlish, but not sexual.
- [88:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So I guess it's just interesting. It's just interesting the way that it hits different in slightly different context.
- [88:40]
Jessica Defino
Very interesting.
- [88:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [88:41]
Jessica Defino
And then Sandy Lang. Is that how you say her name?
- [88:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sandy Liang.
- [88:46]
Jessica Defino
Sandy Liang. The makeup was very doll inspired. So everyone's been talking about the makeup from the Sandy Lang show being like, the. The line. The headline item is concealer lips, because it was lips that were covered in concealer instead of lipstick. Like that nude lipstick that just blends right into your face. But when I saw a picture from it, I was like, this looks like. Like, Return to factory settings. Like a rubber Barbie face before the makeup is stamped on it.
- [89:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Or do you remember that, like, Barbie, where you would take, like, a wet washcloth and then all its makeup would appear? It's like, before you. Before the washcloth. That's The Barbie.
- [89:25]
Jessica Defino
Barbie 100%. And then I was reading an article about this makeup in the cut, and Farrah Homeidi was the makeup artist, and she said, this season, I created mannequin latex lips. So that is the inspiration. Mannequin latex lips, Yeah.
- [89:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know if listeners know this about me, but I have a mannequin phobia, and this is my. That might push me to my brink.
- [89:52]
Jessica Defino
I feel like the next couple of years of being not going to be. Because we are entering a mannequin era triggered by it.
- [90:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No, thank you.
- [90:01]
Jessica Defino
So, yeah, there's that. Okay, this one was funny. There's lots of, like, understated brows and lashes. Like, not using mascara.
- [90:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Okay.
- [90:12]
Jessica Defino
Anna Sui Diota, Elena Velez. But I thought it was really fun. Funny, because I got a press release from Ardell Lashes, like the fake lashes brand about this look, and they were like, Anna Sui opted for subtle, barely there lashes. The Ardell naked lashes in 420 are the ideal choice. There's nothing effortless or natural about a full strip of fake lashes. Like, not everything needs to be a sales pitch. Like, you could have just sat this one out.
- [90:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Not every trend is for you to capitalize on.
- [90:45]
Jessica Defino
That's very funny.
- [90:47]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's funny, too, because I thought you were gonna say that. They were like, ignore these runways. You know what I mean? I thought you were gonna go the opposite way. They're like, I know what they're showing you, but don't listen. A full lash is always in. Like, get out of there.
- [90:58]
Jessica Defino
They were like, I love the look of barely there lashes. And to get that look, I put on a full strip of fake ones. There's, like, no. Just no common sense.
- [91:07]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's always interesting, though. Like, the way beauty really walks a funny line. I mean, obviously, but, like, the way they're, like, the look this. This year is no lipstick. But you have to wear this lipstick to get. I don't know. I always think that's very funny of them where they're, like, writing themselves out of the conversation and then trying to write themselves back in in a weird way.
- [91:26]
Jessica Defino
Well, do I have a trend for you then. It's called exhausted eye makeup Perfect. And I am unfamiliar with this designer, Marut Toligan Tolligan. I'll put the name in the show notes. But for their last collection, makeup artist from Addiction Tokyo created a look they called Exhausted Beauty. So what that is is just eyeshadow under the eyes to make it look like you have dark circles.
- [91:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure.
- [91:58]
Jessica Defino
Which was, like, already trending a couple of years ago, and I didn't love it then, but they sent out the product breakdown for how to get this. This look, and it's. It's blending two eyeshadows that cost $20 each.
- [92:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So for only $40, you can go haggard.
- [92:14]
Jessica Defino
Two hours of labor for the average American worker. You two can look exhausted. And then also at Lure. L U A R L. Yeah. L. Terry Barber, a makeup artist, used brown eyeshadow to create what he called, quote, a tie Tired eye look on male models.
- [92:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, we're definitely tired. No doubt.
- [92:38]
Jessica Defino
I know. And it's just like, I'm all for embracing under eye circles, but a lot of us just have them all.
- [92:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You can just have them. Yeah.
- [92:44]
Jessica Defino
Free yourself from having to purchase every aesthetic. Like, your exhausted body is finally enough as is.
- [92:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It reminds me, though, of, like, I mean, I feel like a little bit of it is kind of a nod to indie sleaze, because I remember at the time of indie sleaze, like, slept in makeup being the big thing of, like, you want your eyeliner to look like. Like it's the second day and. But you would do all this kind of elaborate work to recreate the idea that you, like, had a crazy night out on the town and then you just, like, fell asleep in a full face of makeup. But, like, it's fresh makeup.
- [93:16]
Jessica Defino
No, it's fresh makeup that you've smudged.
- [93:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's something very similar to that where it's like, you want to look exhausted and, like, you were up all night. But, yeah. By blending multiple eyeshadows into, like, the perfect.
- [93:27]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [93:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
The perfect dark under eye circle.
- [93:30]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Dystopian.
- [93:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Incredible. Well, thank you for that fashion report.
- [93:36]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, that's my little breakdown. Should we get into the mess of the month?
- [93:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, let's get into the mess of the month. Let's start with my long running beef with Deuxmoi it's back again.
- [93:47]
Jessica Defino
I'm so excited. And my friend Carrie is so excited because she actually texted me. I guess she was listening to, like, back episodes. She texted me the other night. She's like, oh, my God, I heart mess has beef with Umuah. And I was like, I can't get into it over text. I'll tell you all about it later.
- [94:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Truly, the lore builds and builds a ton. It's like, I'm not even seeking this out. I don't think about her, I don't care about her. Like, these things just come up in my feed and I'm like, enraged and new. And I'm like, why? Why do I have to deal with this account? Why do I have to deal with this woman anyway? So, yeah, it persists as a refresher, I guess. De Moi and I do not get along mostly because I just think that she's like, well, one, a terrible and irresponsible news source for celebrity information and gossip. Gossip. And she is regularly wrong a large amount of these stories and this information that she puts out there is incorrect. And also her account is just replete with unmarked sponsored content.
- [94:45]
Jessica Defino
It never ends.
- [94:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Which I think is wild for someone who presents themselves as a real news source. Yeah. And then, of course, I mean, I don't know, my anger started with her over the unmarked spawn con, because I just thought it was crazy. And then Arbeef really hit a new level, I would say, when she signed a deal with Bat Grid. Batrid is one of the largest celebrity paparazzi agencies in the world. And she now has begun just straight up publishing paparazzi photos that would typically be seen in People Daily Mail, like kind of your standard tabloids, and getting exclusives with them as well, which is like a big deal to kind of snipe those away from traditional tabloid media media. And also, I think you'll notice because of those deals, like, kind of a stark change in her content recently. Like, it's really become all kind of like this very bland, generic, like, spotted stuff, which is just the paparazzi photos.
- [95:44]
Jessica Defino
Right.
- [95:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And she really isn't kind of doing the blind item crazier stuff that she would get away with in the past. And I assume that's because of these. These contracts she signed, the size of her audience at this point, and that she probably has, like, legal advisors at this point who are cracking down on the type of unscrupulous gossip that she's publishing that's unfounded anyway. So our beef really began in earnest when she posted these Images from, like, the White Party or something last summer. And they were back grid photos. And I shared one of them on my Instagram stories. And I genuinely don't know how she even saw this, because I did not tag her. I just showed. Shared the story.
- [96:27]
Jessica Defino
Right.
- [96:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Which I think is, like, even weirder. I'm like, okay, so you're seeking this out. You're going through, like, how people are sharing your content. Like, that's so weird. But anyway, so I shared one of those things, and I just said, you know, like, now that Deux Moi has this, like, paparazzi, it's a relationship with a paparazzi agency that's like, the same as major tabloids. At what point do we start holding her to the same journalistic standards as these major tabloids? And she responded to my Instagram story and. And says, like. Like, who says we aren't?
- [96:56]
Jessica Defino
I say, you aren't.
- [96:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I did, bitch. I said, you aren't. I said, you aren't. And that's so offensive to real journalists that you think that you are being held to the same standards. That is insane. Like, on a very, very basic level, let me just say this for maybe people who don't understand how celebrity journalism works. Like, on the most basic, most foundational level, when you write a story about a celebrity, you reach out to them for comment, no matter what it is. If there's anything kind of like legal, dubious, whatever, reach out to their team for comment. And then you put in the story, like, we have reached out for comment and we have yet to hear back, or we have reached out to comment, they have no response. You know, whatever. Whatever it is, sometimes they give you a statement. You publish the statement in response. I have certainly never seen that qualification on any of the gossip that Deuxmo has published. Have you? So that would be kind of like Journalism 101 is what I would call that. And it's not happening. And I just think it's so crazy and rude of her to imply that anything she's doing is comparable to what real journalists are doing anyway. So that's kind of what really has turned me against her for life. And then each thing atop that enrages me anew. So the latest one is in response to the Super Bowl. So the super bowl happened. And then probably like, three or four days later, later, Deuxmoi publishes an ad that I will say, at the very least, she properly discloses an ad for perhaps the first time in her life by adding, hashtag, ad. I've never seen her do that before. Yeah, Congrats to you for figuring out how to be an influencer for the first time. And it was for American Eagle. And this ad is. She always does this. It's framed as though it's being submitted by a reader as a blind eye item, but it's actually copy from. It's extremely corny and extremely obvious. Like, I don't know. I mean, I've thought this for a long time with her. Like, long before the disclosed hashtag ads, she was already doing this type of stuff. And I was like, that's clearly a PR person wrote that. Like, maybe that's just me and my brain having received PR emails for the last decade of my life, but I'm like, I don't know how anyone is believing that this is not that celebrity's PR person. Like, writing a weird, weird comment on their behalf about how good they looked and how great they are. Um, anyway, so this one's from American Eagle, and it's presented as a blind item. And in the blind item, again, this is days after the fact, days after the Super Bowl. American Eagle is claiming that the jeans that Kendrick Lamar was wearing during the super bowl halftime performance are actually vintage early aughts American Eagle flares that he found in his fiance's closet right before the performance. Performance. And was like, gotta wear these. They're so cool.
- [99:48]
Jessica Defino
I feel like they were confirmed Celine, like, during the Super Bowl.
- [99:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
During the Super Bowl. And that's. That was kind of my initial problem with the act is I was like, first of all, if you're gonna do a lie like this, you need to do it immediately.
- [100:01]
Jessica Defino
As soon as, like, you need to.
- [100:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
See those jeans, come up with the lie and get it out on Deuxmoi in that same hour. Or like, what are you doing? What is the point? But literally during the super bowl, we get confirmation from Kendrick's own style stylist that these jeans are from Celine and that they were meant for her other celebrity client, Timothee Chalamet, but that Kendrick saw them on the rack and was like, I want to wear those. And so he wore them, so we know they're Celine. So what is the point of this weird, complicated lie about where they came from? And it just pisses me off on every level, hoping the audience doesn't know and is ill informed and is not going to check. And that is so duplicitous. Like, on an account that promotes itself as. As a real celebrity news source to just count that your readers relies exclusively on you for that celebrity news. Look how heated I'm getting like, I don't even know.
- [100:50]
Jessica Defino
No, I'm with you. It's just so weird and, like, it's so weird.
- [100:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And that and that and that. That is just like, it's so legally dubious to me also. Like, how do they get away with that? Like, why is that legally. Okay, like, why does that kind of, like, pass the mustard as, like, a weird sort of spawn con you can do? Like, why can you make up something like that?
- [101:10]
Jessica Defino
That beyond, like, the legal stuff, it just seems like there's like a real disdain for her own audience there that you're.
- [101:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
She assumes they're so stupid that they won't know that this has already been confirmed as Seline and that this is fully a lie. And, like, I'm just going to trust that you guys aren't going to question me.
- [101:27]
Jessica Defino
That's so weird. It's so weird.
- [101:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Anyway, yes, it's really frustrating to me on all sides. American Eagle as well. Like, what are you doing? And did that benefit you? Did you move flares after that? That, like, I would love to see the numbers versus the backlash. Like, oh, how does that benefit you? Is so weird to me. And anyway, it just got me thinking. She has this legal statement at the top of her account that I'm now realizing just the. The depth of the heavy work it's doing to keep her out of all sorts of lawsuits where it says, quote, some statements made on this account have not been independently confirmed. This account does not claim all information published is based in fact. Like, no joke, my dude.
- [102:04]
Jessica Defino
I feel like at least your ads should be.
- [102:07]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I. I would also argue that at the very least, your ad should maybe be based in a little bit of fact. Yeah, that's just me. That's my mess of the month. I cannot stand that account.
- [102:16]
Jessica Defino
Enemy of the Pod.
- [102:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Enemy of the Pod confirmed. First. First. Enemy of the pod. Locked and loaded.
- [102:25]
Jessica Defino
My mess of the month is just Love is Blind. Do you watch?
- [102:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Fair enough. I did watch, and I've really let it go over the past couple of seasons because in my opinion, I'm a real reality show connoisseur. Let me just put that out there. I've seen pretty much everything that exists, and Love is Blind suffers well from a lot of issues, but one of its main issues for me that I find unforgivable is the same problem that 90 Day Fiance suffers from, which is that get better editors. Cut it. Cut it down. I don't need to see the same scenes repeated over and over again. I don't need the same Teasers and like weird one liner. Like, give me the Bravo edit.
- [103:02]
Jessica Defino
I agree.
- [103:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I want them to start poaching Bravo's editors so bad and just make this stuff watchable. Like, people. I want to consume Love is Blind. I want to consume 90 Day Fiance. I don't want to watch for 2 hours of nothing happening.
- [103:13]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [103:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And then obviously everything else that's wrong with Love is Blind.
- [103:16]
Jessica Defino
And yet I continue watching. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just kind of an interesting. I feel like it's an interesting look at beauty culture because, like, that really is the. The premise. And so when a couple could.
- [103:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Except everyone is beautiful.
- [103:30]
Jessica Defino
Love is not Blind. Well, yeah, well, especially in more recent seasons because I feel like it was horrible on the non conventional attraction of people the first season. Like, it would be, I think, unethical to put someone through that kind of public scrutiny. It's really horrible. And so when you learn, like, love is not blind for a couple, it's basically like, like you can't escape beauty culture. Like, it's everywhere. And then when love, like, quote unquote is blind, it's because these people are like, well matched. Looks wise, anyway.
- [104:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, totally. I think the last season I watched of Love is Blind, they had a contestant who kept trying to, like, fish for women's like, pant size.
- [104:10]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my gosh.
- [104:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Do you remember that? He kept being like, I love to buy my partner clothes. What size clothing would you say that you wear? And every woman immediately, obviously, immediately saw through. And they're like, I'm good, dude. Dude.
- [104:20]
Jessica Defino
Like, there was one season where a guy was like, if we, if we went to a festival, a music festival, could I. Yeah, exactly.
- [104:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I think it might have been the same dude. I totally remember that. That's so funny. Yeah, yeah. There's like subtle ways of like, getting out the information of, like, what do you look like? How fat are you? Actually?
- [104:39]
Jessica Defino
So this season, one of the men, his name is Dave, I think he works in medical aesthetics.
- [104:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Perfect.
- [104:46]
Jessica Defino
And so this is part of his reason for wanting to come on the show. He says he's around like book botoxed and fillered women all the time. And he says, he literally says it's probably warped his perception of what he thinks a woman should look like. And I just think that's like a red flag. I don't think he should be alive a thousand percent.
- [105:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But also, does he think that, like, if your brain has been warped by what's around you, like, you're still gonna see her in the end? Does he get that? Like, he's still gonna see his partner in the end. And will his brain not still be warped by those aesthetics?
- [105:18]
Jessica Defino
I. I don't think he gets that.
- [105:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
He hasn't thought that far ahead.
- [105:22]
Jessica Defino
No. And I just feel like if I was on this show and one of the men was like, oh, I work in medical aesthetics, and I'm around Botox women all the time, because that's how he introduced himself to all of these women. I would. I would immediately be out.
- [105:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I'm good.
- [105:34]
Jessica Defino
I almost admire the people who stayed to continue to talk to him for days, because I would just know. But here's the other thing. So he starts talking to this one woman, and she says she's in her 30s, and he goes, oh, so you're not attractive anymore?
- [105:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, my God.
- [105:51]
Jessica Defino
And then he laughs. He's like, no, I'm just joking. I'm just joking.
- [105:53]
Emily Kirkpatrick
He's not joking.
- [105:54]
Jessica Defino
He's not joking. I promise you, if a man says this to you as a joke, get out of there as soon as possible. This is what he really believes. And he is not going to be a good partner to you as you get old, and I will die on this hill.
- [106:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, no, no, of course he can't be a good partner to you because he thinks that going past a certain number is like, you're decrepit and disgusting. And how could he possibly find you romantically viable?
- [106:24]
Jessica Defino
I don't know.
- [106:24]
Emily Kirkpatrick
As though he himself is not aging. As though the point of a relationship is not aging together.
- [106:29]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, right.
- [106:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And both of you changing over time and somehow your love enduring.
- [106:35]
Jessica Defino
He claims to want that, I think.
- [106:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure. Abstractly.
- [106:39]
Jessica Defino
But again, his brain has been admittedly warped by his line of work. And I just, like. I feel like whoever he dates next, after having this realization about himself, it's just probably not gonna. He's, like, learning on you. He's testing on you. He's, like, trying to fix himself on you. And that's probably not gonna.
- [106:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, unless you're 20 and you're perfect.
- [107:01]
Jessica Defino
But you'll get old.
- [107:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Eventually you, too will age, and then eventually you'll be over the hill.
- [107:06]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. So that. I don't know. It's given me anxiety all season because when is the other shoe gonna drop here? Now that he's, like, chosen his person and this person has chosen him back, and they're, like, living in life together.
- [107:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Have they met? They've met.
- [107:20]
Jessica Defino
Yes, they've.
- [107:21]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So he's seen her.
- [107:22]
Jessica Defino
He's seen her.
- [107:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And how old is she?
- [107:25]
Jessica Defino
She's like she's somewhere between 30 and.
- [107:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
33 and is she botoxing?
- [107:30]
Jessica Defino
Not like in a big way that I can.
- [107:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Not in a big way she might be because she knows and she's on Delvision. Like who knows?
- [107:37]
Jessica Defino
It's not like apparent.
- [107:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Not in the hyperplastic surgery. Yeah. I was just curious, I guess about the degree to which she may be met. Kind of his aesthetics from his career.
- [107:47]
Jessica Defino
She's like, you know, she's pretty and blonde and good looking, but not what you would imagine of like what he's described as finding beautiful in the past necessarily. But they're spoiler alert, you know, if you wanna, if you're not caught up on the show, turn this off. But they're having a fight now because she was like hooking up with someone, like had a friends with benefit situation before she came on the show. And he, he's like slut shaming her to the max. He's like, I don't understand how you could be ready for marriage if you wanted to have sex the weekend before you got here.
- [108:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [108:22]
Jessica Defino
And horrible. So it's like their fights are not about aesthetics, but they're just about another form of like not wanting women to ideal feminine bodied life.
- [108:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [108:35]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [108:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Incredible. Wasn't there also like last season, maybe a man who said something similar to his assigned partner about like natural beauty and, and her having like caked on makeup is kind of all I remember.
- [108:48]
Jessica Defino
Okay. So there was, there was something about that, but I kind of fell on the other side. I. I don't have the popular opinion on that.
- [108:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know anything about it beyond that.
- [108:56]
Jessica Defino
He was basically like, I didn't expect you to be wearing so much makeup. She wore very heavy makeup and he didn't like it. And I think the general takeaway. So this is interesting coming back to the Republican makeup thing. But like, I think the general takeaway from the public was like, how dare you judge a woman by what she looks like? Sure, maybe this is problematic. I haven't fully interrogated it in myself, but my takeaway is like, it's not necessarily judging someone by what they look like if they're clearly investing a lot of time and effort into putting on makeup. Like, that's more judging the action of this is what you're investing your money and your time in. And this is how, how this is something you care about. This is your value.
- [109:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's a value for you.
- [109:37]
Jessica Defino
I don't value that. I didn't imagine myself with someone for life who values that. So much. So I. I mean, I think if we, like, zoom out and look at it on a cultural level, like, yeah, there's a lot of men who say they want a natural beauty, but they want someone who puts a ton of effort into their appearance and just looks, you know, effortless the way they imagine an effortless beauty to look. This guy didn't necessarily say that. He seemed like he actually, like, doesn't care about that stuff and, like, didn't want to partner for life with someone who did.
- [110:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, no, it's interesting on both sides.
- [110:11]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [110:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I might have to tune in for a little bit of Dave. Yeah, I have to drop in for a little touch of Dave.
- [110:17]
Jessica Defino
At least the first episodes where he's explaining his, like, his problems and why he's. Come on. Love is blind. It's like, oh, you just. You're wanting to use these women who are not as beautiful as the women you've dated in the past. Work through your own issues. Okay.
- [110:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Okay. Classic.
- [110:33]
Jessica Defino
Okay. But, yeah, that's it. I don't want to watch anymore, but I will. I can't stop.
- [110:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Great. Keep me posted.
- [110:41]
Jessica Defino
I will. Wow. Thanks for listening, everyone. We really did it again.
- [110:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yep. Here we are, two hours in.
- [110:49]
Jessica Defino
If you like this, and only if you liked it, please, you know, like, subscribe, review on itunes, and we'll see you in a couple weeks with our next guest episode.
- [111:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, a little Oscars recap. Get into it. See you soon.
- [111:05]
Jessica Defino
All right, bye.