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Mess World
BBL Drizzy, Taylor Swift Perfume, Merkins & More: A New Podcast About Celebrity Beauty Mess!
01:25:33
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- [00:18]
A
Hello, and welcome to the first episode of the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino. I'm the writer of the newsletter the Review of Beauty, which is kind of a critical look at our obsession with looks. And my co host is Emily Kirkpatrick.
- [00:36]
B
Hi, I'm Emily. I'm the writer of I Heart Mess, a weekly roundup of the best of the worst celebrity fashion. And I'm happy to be here.
- [00:43]
A
I'm so excited we're finally doing this.
- [00:46]
B
I know it's been a while.
- [00:48]
A
I'm mostly excited that we're. We're both on the same page about not having a visual component to podcasts. Like, I'm a firm believer in. In the audio format for a podcast.
- [00:58]
B
I love rolling up to anything and no makeup in my. Whatever makes that possible and also is a viable career. I'm here for it.
- [01:06]
A
Yes. I also feel like. I mean, when I brought this up to you, I was like, there are no podcasts that I want to listen to anymore. And I had been actively resisting launching a podcast for years, but now I feel like we're sort of in, like, a podcast renaissance in the fashion space. Like, Lauren Sherman just started her podcast. Alyssa Vingen from Nylon just started a podcast.
- [01:31]
B
Fashion podcast podcast later this week.
- [01:33]
A
Oh, my gosh. Oh, I can't wait. That's exciting. And I think Hunter Harris is launching one soon, so I feel like we're in the midst of a pot of salts, for sure.
- [01:43]
B
And we have cutting room floor, too, with the law room.
- [01:46]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [01:46]
B
This went crazy viral. She said.
- [01:48]
A
Yes. I know. I feel like I've been listening for years, and it was nice to see, like, that hugely viral moment.
- [01:55]
B
Amazing interviewer. She deserves it.
- [01:57]
A
I know. Oh, my gosh. I'm, like, in awe of, like, her questions and her composure and.
- [02:02]
B
And her way shady. But, like, leaving it open to disagree is, like, so beautiful. Like, when I'm shady, it's just like, you cannot have a different opinion than me. How dare you?
- [02:12]
A
No, the same. The same. I aspire to, like, that. That level of shadiness. So, yeah, when I thought of starting a podcast, I immediately thought of you because. Well, first of all, I felt like so many of our beauty and fashion trend predictions were sort of mirroring each other. Like, I remember last year I talked about the onset of, like, butthole beauty products, and this was around the time you were writing about, like, the butt crack as fashion focal point.
- [02:43]
B
Hand in hand fashion and Beauty. Always.
- [02:45]
A
Yes. So, yeah, I guess it's probably important to say is just from. From our newsletters. Do you want to, like, tell people more about your newsletter? Should we just get into it? I don't know.
- [03:01]
B
Yeah, I've wanted to do a podcast for a while too, but I always just feel crazy talking to myself alone and I wanted someone to bounce ideas off of. And yeah, when I first started reading your newsletter, I was very struck by it because I was just like, oh, this person has, like, such a similar outlook to my own. But, like, obviously you're doing it a much more like journalistic academic. My description is like, well read where I'm just going, like, very off my, like, feelings and gut instincts about stuff and making little silly jokes about people. But yeah, I think we. We have very similar attitudes coming from different industries that are very much in lockstep with each other.
- [03:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, you do make silly jokes and your newsletter is very funny. But I also am just, like, always in awe of the references that you pull. Like, everything that you're joking about or talking about is like a true look at the fashion history of any sort of particular trend. It's very deep dives, I think goes deep dive.
- [03:58]
B
And that's also just the product of, like, having a sick brain that, like, clings to the fashion and the pop culture references I've accumulated over the last decade of my life and, like, can't get rid of and can't think about anything else.
- [04:11]
A
So. So speaking of things you can't get rid of in your brain, I want to give a shout out to our. Our intro music, which is this song called Hot Mess by Carly Lind, who I went to college with. I studied music in college, and Carly released this song while we were there. And it's been stuck in my head for, like, 13 years. And when we decided. Yeah, when we decided to do the podcast, I immediately thought of Hot Mess and. And thought about how perfect it would be. And Carly was generous enough to. To loan us the music for this. So shout out to Carly. Shout out to Hot Mess.
- [04:48]
B
Shout out, Carly. Bless you. This is a song for the ages and really slept upon. And I hope, I hope that this podcast gives it a new life because I think people will really enjoy it also. Brain Worm. I really thought you were going to bring up RFK's brain worm. Oh, my gosh, Charlie, for associating your pop song with.
- [05:10]
A
What I love most about RFK is that, you know, in the. The distant possibility that he becomes our president, we'll have the first. First lady with a beauty brand. His wife has. Has a beauty brand. I have a clean makeup brand.
- [05:24]
B
I only know her from the curb.
- [05:26]
A
Curb your enthusiasm. Her and her daughter started a brand. I can't remember the name of it.
- [05:32]
B
But of course she does every. Are you really a celebrity if you don't have some, like, side hustle that you don't actually know anything about?
- [05:40]
A
Exactly. Which. Which we will talk about so much. So, yeah, I think the format of the podcast will be we'll do some quick hits, we'll do some deep dives, and then we'll each do our personal pick for the mess of the month.
- [05:56]
B
Sounds good.
- [05:57]
A
Do you want to get into it? Should we go?
- [06:00]
B
Okay. My first little quick hit for you is that anyone who follows me on Twitter or reads the newsletter knows that I'm obsessed with a staged paparazzi shot. I love a setup, and the more obvious it is, I think the better it is. And one that came out this month that really struck me was Mariah Carey. You know, diva of all divas, was on a roller coaster ride for her kid's birthday, and she was seated next to her hairdresser, who was brushing out her hair at the end of each ride to make sure that, like, it didn't look too windswept and the things were glamorous and up to snuff, as they should be. And I just think Mariah is one of our premier divas. And as I talk about in the newsletter a lot, we are really sorely lacking in divas right now in culture, and someone who just, like, understands their role as of celebrity and, like, what people want from that. Like, people don't want more consumer goods. I literally just want, like, a funny photograph of you. Really extravagant and luxurious.
- [06:59]
A
Yes. I love Mariah for this reason. Like, she's up there for me with Dolly Parton, where I will probably never critique her aesthetic choices because, like, the artificiality is so real and so necessary.
- [07:12]
B
The commitment.
- [07:14]
A
Yes, yes. She does it perfectly. I also love, like, the fact that windswept hair is such a thing. And, like, having your hairdresser with you to fix the, like, natural windsweptness of the hair is, like, a little nod to the construction.
- [07:32]
B
Totally. And she's staring dead in the camera as she sees the paparazzi. She's like, and this is for you. And this is a GH that I've created for you. But, yeah, the artificiality of it, I think, is kind of beautiful because it's already a very artificial, very weird setup. To have celebrities, to have people documenting their, like, quote unquote, real lives. And so just kind of like, break the fourth wall and make that very transparent is something Mariah's always been really good at. I'm thinking specifically, have you ever seen her reality show?
- [08:01]
A
No, I've never watched it.
- [08:03]
B
One of my favorite programs on Planet Earth. It's, like, unbelievable to me that it was ever made. But it starts with her on a yacht when she was still seeing her ex fiance in, like, the Mediterranean. And she's wearing, like, a silk negligee and just like an absurd amount of diamonds on, like, every extremity. And she just leaps off the yacht into the ocean and she's like, paddling around in all her diamonds and silk. And I'm like, and this is what we bathe.
- [08:28]
A
This is what we want.
- [08:29]
B
The voice. Yeah, the Voice. But, like, this is what. This is entertainment. And I think some often forget that part of their job is, like, us liking them or, like, being entertained by them 100%.
- [08:42]
A
I mean, to bring it to. Around to celebrity hair care. I got the new issue of, like, the special beauty edition of Women's Wear Daily in the Mail the other day, and Brooke Shields is on the COVID because she has a new hair care brand.
- [08:57]
B
Of course she does.
- [08:59]
A
And the brand is called Commence, which I don't know why. I just think it's very funny. I think it's so funny. And I'm just like, who needs a hair care brand from Brooke Shields and who wants a hair care brand from her? And is it entertaining and is it giving us anything? And it's just like, no. And even reading the story was really interesting. And she has a quote in the story where she says, just because I'm Brooke Shields and I have hair doesn't make me an expert. The efficacy of the products is what I'm painstakingly focused on. And it's. I mean, it's so bizarre because it's like trying to acknowledge that, like, having hair and being known for beautiful hair doesn't make you an expert. But it's also like she didn't start caring about efficacy of products until she decided to launch a beauty brand. Like, it's not like she's had this expertise and is like, I have to share it with people. It's like she decided, yeah, she decided, like, brand is the way to go now. Let me gather expertise and then I can sell it.
- [10:06]
B
Weird to admit, like, I'm not the expert, but I'm going to be the expert in this field for You. I don't know. It just reminded me of, like, you know, those Architectural Digest tours. And, like, everyone really praises Kirsten Dunst because she just brought in the interior designer and was like, talk about what you did in our home and, like, how we collaborate because you're the expert in it. And to me, it's that same moment. Like, why not just bring in the scientist? Like, why not bring the actual hair care expert to, like, yes, all this stuff and be like, no, see, it's not just me, you guys. Like, there's a real person behind me who like the real science.
- [10:39]
A
And I think, like, the rest of the story really does support that because I thought it was pretty interesting. She said it was a challenge to get funding. Like, she was going to all of these investors and presenting it as, like, Brook Shields hair care and having a hard time. So it's like, is celebrity not enough to sell a beauty product anymore? Are we, like, reaching the end?
- [11:04]
B
That difficulty is like, one, Brooke Shields isn't famous enough, or two, like, we already have too many famous hair care products, according to, like, investors. Like, I'm curious.
- [11:17]
A
I think it's probably both. Like, I don't really know who her target.
- [11:21]
B
Yeah.
- [11:21]
A
Market would be. I would assume a lot of her fans are maybe, like, older women. Women in her own age bracket. And. But the brand doesn't seem to have, like, a special focus on that. Like, I'm thinking of, like, a skincare comp would be Naomi Watts, like, Menopause skin care company.
- [11:39]
B
Sure.
- [11:41]
A
But even that. Like, the company that owned that was this biotech company that, like, focused on cosmetics. They're called Amyris, and they, like, recently went bankrupt. And they had a ton of celebrity brands under their umbrella. There was. They had Naomi Watts, they had Rose Inc. From Rosie Huntington Whiteley JVN Hair Care, Jonathan Van Ness Costa Brazil from Francisco Costa of Calvin Klein. And they went bankrupt, like, with. Within the past year. I think so. I don't know. I think all signs sort of point to almost the end of the celebrity beauty brand.
- [12:18]
B
Not to be rude, but I feel like one of those people is not like the other. Like, Costa, to me, is not an interesting inclusion in that brand list. But yeah, I don't know. I was also thinking, like, even around when Beyonce launched Sacred, you know, I was thinking, like, really, like, because she launched Sacred right after the perfume. And I don't know, I feel like when. When your reaction to, like, the biggest pop star in the world launching products isn't like, overwhelming excitement. Like, that kind of bodes Poor for every one beneath her, which is everyone, you know, which is why, I don't know, it's a little funny to me. Like, you know, Taylor Swift potentially launching a perfume now.
- [12:56]
A
Yes.
- [12:57]
B
I'm like, should we.
- [12:59]
A
I know, I know. I read that in Feed Me the newsletter from Emily Sundberg. And so it's just a rumor, but she said she got it from a reliable source that Taylor Swift is. Is rumored to be launching a perfume. But, yeah, especially it's. It's interesting in this space because the fragrance industry is doing really well.
- [13:20]
B
Okay.
- [13:21]
A
But celebrity fragrances specifically, I think, are not doing really well. Like, Kylie Jenner's latest Cosmic, was kind of a flop. Bella Hadid just launched her fragrance brand Orabella, and I don't think it did well.
- [13:36]
B
I haven't heard a peep about Bella's fragrances. And, you know, I love that girl, and I want to support her, but, yeah, I have. It has not made the ripples that I think it has to make for anyone to care about that perfume.
- [13:48]
A
Right. It was kind of a messy rollout where there's not, like, a clear focus or a clear.
- [13:54]
B
Why.
- [13:54]
A
Like, it's sort of vaguely wellnessy. She's not using alcohol. She's using essential oils. You kind of have to shake up the perfume to mix it before you spray it, because she's not using the specific cosmetic chemicals that, like, mix it in the bottle.
- [14:09]
B
You know, tragically, I think you're gonna lose people with that.
- [14:12]
A
I think so, too. But here's my theory. I think. I think the. The brand might see a little boost because she was spotted smoking a cigarette this weekend.
- [14:22]
B
Oh, yeah. She was looking at it, and I.
- [14:24]
A
I think it's so goopy, and I think it's very Gwyneth Paltrow to have, like, a wellness brand and smoke a cig, and I think maybe people will trust her more.
- [14:32]
B
Well, also, did you watch all those. I don't remember. It was an Instagram Story or TikTok where she was, like, putting together her, like, morning juice concoction.
- [14:38]
A
Yes.
- [14:39]
B
Like 50 million different, like, elixirs and vitamins and things she's taking. I am obsessed with seeing the contrast between that and then, like, smoking a little Capri. That's beautiful. To me, that's balance.
- [14:52]
A
It is. It is. It's. I mean, because it's real. I'm. Ish. As real as you can be when you're, you know, getting paparazzi shots as a celeb that, you know you're gonna get. But I Think if she was gonna. If she wanted to launch a brand that made money, wellness tinctures would have been the way to go. Like, I think people would have bought that for sure.
- [15:14]
B
Probably in the kin euphoric space anyway, which is just adaptogen, like, you know, hazy science, non alcoholic.
- [15:22]
A
Yeah, Buzz.
- [15:23]
B
Yeah. Tinctures to me would make a lot of sense. Or just weird vitamins.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:28]
B
Kind of shit. What's that brand that I'm thinking of? Who's the real goopy lady who got her rock stolen by Father John Misty? Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [15:38]
A
No, but I want to.
- [15:41]
B
She makes all the Moon Dust. Moon Juice.
- [15:44]
A
Yes.
- [15:45]
B
Lady famously got her rose quartz stolen. Well, she. I don't know. They like accused Father John Misty, but I don't think he's the one who stole the rock.
- [15:55]
A
But that's so funny. I. I am, you know, perhaps problematically a big Moon Juice supporter.
- [16:02]
B
And her fascinating.
- [16:03]
A
I find her fascinating every time I'm in LA because I used to live in la. I don't anymore. But every time I go back, the first place I go is a Moon Juice Cafe. And I get like the Sex Dust coffee.
- [16:14]
B
It's intriguing.
- [16:15]
A
It's so good.
- [16:16]
B
But I do think. I think that's a really good example that Bella should follow for her career. I think she'd be great as the Moon Dust Lady.
- [16:23]
A
That's such a good idea. We should call her. We should invest.
- [16:27]
B
I'll let her and Yolanda know. Something else that I wanted to bring up just quickly because I don't like talking about this man for very long. But I just want to state on the record that I am noticing a Bianca Sensorian of fashion and I don't care for it. Just there's a lot of gals out there in a body stocking in some hosiery with their vagina out with like using household objects to cover their breasts or to, you know, protect the pillow moment. I'm thinking about the pillow moment and then I'm thinking about Doja Cat in like the lead up to the. Well, a lot of cats looks lately have been very Bianca heavy. And it's like especially the lead up to the Met gala where she was wearing all those vet mall pieces. Like, you saw her in the bed sheet and a thong and she like accidentally the bedsheet and flash the camera. It's like, that's me. So Bianca or. Yeah. All the Saran wrap outfits, the garment bag outfits. I don't know, I just find it very tragic that even Though we've, like, supposedly exiled Kanye from popular society, he's still, like, shadow dictating fashion aesthetics because, I mean, he has dictated what everyone has looked like for the last decade. And now he's using this new wife, or I don't really married, but he's just using her as a prop because it's like, we media can write about Bianca. Media cannot write about Kanye.
- [17:58]
A
Right.
- [17:59]
B
So he uses her as a. A billboard for his own, like, weird porno addiction view of how women should dress. It's very sad. And also a lot of stolen ideas from Margiela. And I don't know if people know that this is heavy, heavy. And I mean, the original, like, Martin Margiel 90s references. And he literally. I don't know, when he launched Yeezy for the first time, he was, like, going on an Instagram posting tirade, and he was posting all these stories, and they were literally just lookbook photos from early Margiela. And I'm like, really? Yeah, yeah. He posted, like, hundreds of photos, and they were all lookbook photos from Margiela. And I was like, right, those are the references. We know what you're copying.
- [18:42]
A
Yeah. They've already been proven to be influential. So, like, how much are you being influential right now, remixing them?
- [18:50]
B
He's sampling a classic rap.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. It is kind of, like, fascinating how, you know, it makes sense that when he was behind the scenes with Kim, these looks sort of blew up and. And were influencing everyone else because Kim was huge and Bianca is not. So it's. I don't know. I'm. Why. Why is it still so influential even when he doesn't have, like, the Kim Kardashian level, like, Barbie doll to dress up?
- [19:19]
B
To me, it's like fashion is addicted to the same bad people. Like, fashion is like, fashion decides like, you're like a God or, like, you're the trend creative director of the century. It's like you can literally behave however you can do whatever you want. And it's like they're afraid to pivot away. They're afraid, like, give a new shot to a young designer or to a young creative or just, like, a different point of view. Because they're like, well, this has a proven track record of creativity and working. And you see that with, like, the fact that Dolce and Gabbana is still working, the fact that Alexander King is making a comeback right now on Ice Spice, like, make that make sense.
- [19:55]
A
And even, I mean, Galliano for Margiela.
- [19:57]
B
Galliano, absolutely. Galliano and the way that Anna Wintour is pushing Galliano down everyone's throats right now and trying to get him a placement at some, like, bigger couture house. Because she thinks that's her best friend.
- [20:11]
A
Yeah.
- [20:11]
B
Filming his comeback since he said all that anti Semitic stuff, you know, like, she wants this more than anything, and it's about her agenda. It's not about, like, Galliano. Yes. An unbelievable talent. Unbelievably influential. Unbelievably problematic. Is there someone out there who could probably design just. Yeah.
- [20:29]
A
Just as well, without the, like, horrible positions?
- [20:33]
B
I don't believe we have to compromise on these people. Same with Wang. And in Wang's case, it's like, what are you gaining? Like, a bunch of black wear? Like, I don't. You know what I mean? Like, okay, like a T shirt. Like, cool.
- [20:45]
A
Right? Right. And it' like, these people have already had their moment. Like, the effect of Galliano, the effect of Wang on fashion has, like, they've had it. They've done it. Do we need more of it? Especially when it's these people who have done these things we're bringing back.
- [21:03]
B
They're people, like, I think about putting Wayne back in a position of power, and I was like. To endanger the lives of trans women everywhere. Like, why? That's not. It's. There's nothing that could be worth that. It's so crazy to me. It's like Wang has also already been tested. It's not like we haven't seen what he's capable of doing. He's shown us the full extent of his design possibilities.
- [21:21]
A
We put.
- [21:22]
B
We gave him a creative director position in Balenciaga. He failed at it. He got replaced.
- [21:27]
A
Oh, I forgot he was at Balenciaga.
- [21:29]
B
Everyone forgot he was at Balenciaga. Yes. It's like he's gotten the full spectrum, you know, he's been tried, in fact, and proven wanting. And then his character is incredibly wanting. So, like, why are we trying to bring him back? And even just this week on Twitter, I saw all these people, like, having a lot of nostalgia for, like, old Abercrombie and Fitch ads.
- [21:51]
A
Yes. Oh, my gosh. I saw that.
- [21:53]
B
You know, there's, like, threesomes happening in them stuff, and I was just thinking. I was like, sure. Like, I get that nostalgia. I grew up in that era. I grew up consuming that media, but at the same time, that media was shot by Bruce Weber, you know, has been accused credibly by many, many, many male models of assault, violence. And so it's like, I Don't know. Do we need that? Yeah.
- [22:18]
A
I mean, it's, it's. It just makes me think about how everything, like fashion and beauty, I think right now are just so, like, anti mediation. Like, we're not analyzing where something is coming from or what it's representing. Like, it's all surface aesthetic that's dictating what we're doing. And if it's just surface aesthetic, like, what is its value? I mean, I think like the symbolic in fashion and the history in a piece and what it represent and who made it and why is so important. And if you strip that from fashion and beauty, like we're seeing right now in popular uses of fashion and beauty, it's just. It becomes meaningless. Like, what's the point?
- [23:01]
B
Just pretty pictures, you know? Yeah. Just beautiful stuff with horrible, horrific backstories.
- [23:07]
A
No big deal, right?
- [23:09]
B
It's fashion's fashion.
- [23:11]
A
It's true. It's true. But I feel like it's worse lately. I don't know. I've been like, out of the fashion scene for a while, but that was kind of what I started out doing. Like, I. When I left college, I was working as a wardrobe stylist in Hollywood, like, mostly for musicians. And I mean, I was. I was very much into fashion. I read all of the magazines, I knew all of the references, I knew all of the history. And that part was what was exciting to me. It wasn't like, solely the aesthetics. And I don't know, maybe I'm just out of touch with the scene right now, but I feel like what it symbolizes means less and less lately.
- [23:54]
B
Yeah, no, I don't think you're out of touch. I think the Internet has made things weird. I mean, that's an understatement of the century. Schisms in both directions. I feel like on one one hand you have like, all of these very serious, like, fashion historians and people who are looking up the original references and trying to keep those and like, share it with a mass audience. And on the other hand, you have people who literally are just like, slay mama. Like mother has done it again. Like, looking so amazing. And it's like, okay, well, I don't know. Yeah, that it reduces it to just these, like, images. Like, well, did they serve or did they not serve? And it's like there's so much history and context and lack of information about how the industry even itself works. Like, a lot of people seem to still think this is my number one pet peeve. Maybe not my number one, but way up there. But People still seem to think that celebrities are buying these clothes. And it's like, right. If we can't get past that hurdle of, like, understanding, like, there is no hope for us, like, these numbers are made up, like, right.
- [24:57]
A
No, I know. I always say, like, that's why they have so much money, is like, they don't have to buy any of this. Like, the rest of us go broke trying to emulate it, but they're. They're not. They're fine.
- [25:08]
B
Your life is the more things that are just, like, showing up at your doorstep, you know, your clothes are not your own. You do not own those.
- [25:17]
A
No. I mean, even on a smaller level, when I was, like, a beauty editor for more mainstream publications, like, the amount of samples I got, I never had to pay for anything in terms of, like, skincare, makeup. No.
- [25:30]
B
I'm not even in the beauty industry.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah.
- [25:33]
B
That is how crazy and prolific they are, these samples. I remember thinking the same thing when I worked as a stylist assistant when I first moved to New York. It's like we would call in for a shoot, like, I don't know, maybe 50 pairs of designer sunglasses. And they're all made by the same two Italian companies, right? And they make them for, like, $2 a pair. And so we would go to send back the samples, and they'd be like, don't bother. Keep them.
- [25:58]
A
Yeah, we don't need them.
- [25:59]
B
Really. Worth nothing. But, like, it's not worth the price of shipping back to us. Like, you can just. And so that's how I used to make money, is I would sell designer sunglasses that we would get for free.
- [26:09]
A
100% the age of internship. The only time, like, the opposite happened to me, I. I can't even remember what year this was. Maybe 2014. But I produced Rihanna's cover shoot for Harper's Bazaar Arabia, and we called in, like, all these Christian Louboutin shoes, and they sent us, like, 40 pairs, and I think one went missing on scent. I don't know where it went, but that was a huge drama. They were like, no, we need every last shoe back, which I respect. I have no idea where it went.
- [26:39]
B
Story of my life. And, you know, my boss. My boss had always taken it home. And then we got. We got in trouble, and it's like, we would go to her apartment to, like, clean out her closet, because that is a real job she made us do. And I'm like, oh, there's the Missoni pants that I've been getting reamed out about for three months. Because we couldn't find them or celebrities. Celebrities take the samples.
- [27:01]
A
Yeah, that's very true. That is very true. One beauty thing I wanted to talk about that's not celebrity adjacent, but, like, I. I need to talk about it. I don't want to dedicate the time to write about it, but. Okay. My brother texted me the other day, and he was like, have you seen this new beauty trend on TikTok? People are painting their nails to match the tip of their boyfriend's penis.
- [27:25]
B
We're unwell. We're a sick nation.
- [27:27]
A
So sick. And I just couldn't believe it was happening. And I don't have TikTok, but I Googled, like, TikTok, manicure, boyfriend, penis back.
- [27:36]
B
And way into a TikTok friend.
- [27:38]
A
And so I can't watch any of the videos, but, like, you know, all the thumbnails show up in a row, and you scroll through it, and it's just like, this horrifying array of, like, sickening flesh tones. And it's happening. It's really happening. I've been, like, proving that that's the.
- [27:54]
B
Tone of their boyfriend's penis. Like, I hope they're not exposing there on. On social media, but.
- [28:00]
A
Right.
- [28:00]
B
Prove it. Nude. That looks good on you. I don't think that's really the color of your boyfriend's penis at all.
- [28:07]
A
I think it must be because, like, the shades are not good. Like, they're not like, what you would. It's not like, a beautiful, like, pink. It's like, they're fleshy, they're weird. And I mean, maybe it's just because I know it's. It's the color of someone's penis.
- [28:21]
B
Sure.
- [28:22]
A
That it's upsetting from.
- [28:24]
B
I would love to know who. What expert said that this was a good way to find your nude. It's the same as they were doing this with your areolas and, like, supposed to be the right color for you. But I also thought those colors were quite bad. Like, I didn't think people were looking their best in, like, no shades.
- [28:42]
A
No, I. Actually, there's an app now. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called Flirte. And you take a picture of your nipple, and it color matches your nipple to, like, a list of shoppable lipsticks.
- [28:55]
B
Oh, where did pictures go? Who received?
- [28:58]
A
Well, okay. I. Well, I was supposed to write a story about this for the cut, and I just couldn't make it work because I wanted to tie it into this, like, larger political story about, like, you Know beauty as a biological imperative because the language they use is, like, your biology has been giving you the answer.
- [29:13]
B
It's dictated.
- [29:15]
A
And I wanted to. To tie it back to, like, the girlhood discourse and trad wives and all this. I just couldn't make it work. So we'll see what happens with that story. But I actually used the app and I got the lipsticks and I tried it, and it was bad. Like, I don't think the lipsticks weren't a match for my nipple, but they didn't look good on my lips.
- [29:37]
B
Your biology's failed you.
- [29:38]
A
I know. My biology lied to you.
- [29:43]
B
That's interesting. That's disturbing. I feel like. I feel like periodically, though, we always just go through these weird, like, your body knows the best beauty for you trends, or, like, it's actually your body is the secret to, like, the best makeup, to these best, like, artificial things that you're adding on to it when it is already naturally the way that it is.
- [30:04]
A
Yes. I, like, I did a bunch of interviews for the piece, and one person said something that was, like, very common sense but hadn't hit me yet, and they were like, well, of course, this color might be flattering. Like, it already exists on your body. Like, that's not. That's not some, like, genius that we figured out. Like, it's natural that something that exists on you might flatter you, but it's also just like, are you telling me that my body is, like, biologically telling me I have to buy a beauty product that, like, like, didn't exist for millennia post evolution of the nipple?
- [30:43]
B
Like, your body hasn't figured out this one hack to beauty yet?
- [30:47]
A
Right. Like, if that was what my biology is telling me, why wouldn't my just be that color?
- [30:53]
B
Yes. I was thinking when you said that, it's kind of like someone being like, would you believe that we crushed up this flower and that you like it in a perfume?
- [31:02]
A
Yeah.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah. It's almost like they evolved for us.
- [31:06]
A
Oh, my God. Exactly. Oh, that's such a good point.
- [31:11]
B
Very silly. It also made me think of vabbing, which. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
- [31:15]
A
Oh, I'm familiar.
- [31:17]
B
Yeah. Another similar thing where it's like, your vagina is actually making the best perfume.
- [31:22]
A
I have a confession, which is that I. I vabbed. I used to vav. This is before it was called vabbing. I was living in la and one of my good friends was, like, a literal witch, and I was, like, dating. I was lonely, I was alone, and she's like, she's like, you have to do it. This is how to attract a man.
- [31:41]
B
It does seem like la witch territory to me. So that does it effective for you?
- [31:46]
A
I wouldn't say it was not effective. I eventually. I eventually got married to a man I was dating at the time, but I then eventually got divorced. So who's to say my baby was too hard?
- [32:01]
B
Very. Yeah. Very interesting. Also interesting because, I don't know, you talk a lot in your newsletter about, like, what beauty products do to kind of, like, destroy the microbiome of the body and the way the body naturally is. And this idea that. Yeah. That your vagina is producing actually the best possible scent for you. When we work so hard to eliminate so much of what's natural about our body. Especially. Especially the way the vagina smells.
- [32:25]
A
Yes.
- [32:25]
B
It's a very interesting way to reclaim that to me. It's like, oh, well, if we package it in a nicer way.
- [32:31]
A
Right.
- [32:32]
B
Actually, it's good when your vagina smells.
- [32:34]
A
But only if, like. If used in this specific.
- [32:38]
B
For this specific reason.
- [32:39]
A
Exactly, exactly. I think, like, full body deodorants are becoming a thing now, which is pretty horrifying to me as well.
- [32:48]
B
Very troubling. I. I'm amazed by the number of people I even know in my own life who have, like, jumped aboard the body bandwagon. Maybe some of that needs to come out. I know. Smell some of that sweat. You know, that you. You want it all trapped up in there.
- [33:04]
A
And it's also just like, you know, that's part of chemistry, baby. Like, pheromones, like, the. The bacteria on your skin, like, have literal chemical reactions, and those chemical reactions interact with other people's, and that's like, what draws you to somebody. Like, it is a sort of, like, aesthetic component of connection. And I do think that there is a connection between, like, all of the skin care we're using, all of the scents we're using, all of the ways. We're just, like, washing ourselves of our, like, inherent components and replacing them with, like, fake alternatives and sort of, like, widespread death of chemistry and eroticism and dating. Like, I think there's a link. That's my, like, conspiracy theory of choice.
- [33:53]
B
I don't think that's even a conspiracy theory. I think that makes a lot of sense. And you actually just reminded me. I started reading this book this morning, Mass Cult and Mid Cult, and it's this guy from the 60s who's basically just talking about mass culture and the difference between mass. What he deems mass culture and, like, high art and, like, what the purpose of mass culture is. And one of the things he brought up is this idea of creating, like, the mass man. Like, the man who has severed from all of his, like, personal connections with, like, community and himself. Like, his own preferences, his friends, his family. And he's just a perfect kind of, like, capitalist product. Like, all of his tastes are the mass tastes. You know, like everything he enjoys is the mass enjoyment. There is no personal enjoyment. There's only the. The collective and personal enjoyment. Mass culture. And you just remind me of that because it's like we rid ourselves of all these distinguishing factors, because the ultimate idea being you're the perfect consumer for every capitalist product, for everything happening simultaneously in mass culture.
- [34:55]
A
Oh, my gosh, I need to read this.
- [34:57]
B
Yeah, I'm literally incredible. So I feel, like, insane talking about it, but that's how I feel about.
- [35:02]
A
Every book I ever read. I'm like, I'm in. I'm intro. I'm in, baby.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah. I highlighted one paragraph. I'm the expert now on mass cult and mid cult. But, yeah, super interesting.
- [35:12]
A
I need to read that. I mean, it kind of. It's a good segue into our first big deep dive.
- [35:17]
B
Let's do it.
- [35:18]
A
Of the bushes. Back, baby.
- [35:21]
B
Back, baby. We're talking pubic hair.
- [35:25]
A
Pubic hair. I feel like the first time this I really started thinking about this was on the Margiela Couture Runway a couple months ago. But I feel like that's maybe more your territory if you want to talk about. With the Runway.
- [35:40]
B
Yeah, for sure. Well, I actually started thinking about pubic hair before that. Last year, we saw, like, a pretty extreme nudity on the red carpet. Very Julia Fox inspired. And so it was a whole lot of tits out thongs on, you know, totally sheer dresses. And I don't know, the thing with celebrity fashion is, like, we cycle through it very quickly. Like, you see so much of it, you get really desensitized to things very rapidly. And so I was like, already, you know, a couple months in, I was like, okay, we've seen one boob, We've seen them all. Like, I don't need another black D string under, like, a sheer dress. Like, par for the course at this point. So I was trying to think of ways that you could innovate on that. And I was like, like, honestly, the next step would be logically remove the underwear. But, like, I understand why famous people might not want to give away the goods for free in that manner. So I was like, oh, they could Wear a merkin, like, sense. To me, it's like, you already work in an industry where merkins are rampant. Like, wear them for your job. Like, if you're an actress, you wear them for your job. You have access to costume departments that absolutely have them. I was like. And you'd be totally covered while creating the illusion that you're totally naked. And that, to me, is kind of the celebrity dream spot of your generating a lot of outrage. But you're not actually doing anything all that outrageous than what you're actually you're already doing. So I had started thinking about that, and then come the end of January, we're getting the haute couture collections in Paris, and out comes Maison Margiela with double used sheer dresses, and they've hand embroidered merkin thongs that the models are wearing underneath over these big fake prosthetic hips. But it all creates this very, like, eerie illusion of seeing, well, what I would say is a very artificial body. Like a very. I guess they are supposed to be dolls.
- [37:32]
A
So that's what I was gonna say. I feel like the porcelain doll makeup that Pat McGrath created for that specific Runway show, like, really tied that all together for me. Like, my initial reaction seeing the merkin in the hips was like, oh, this is exciting. And then I realized they were prosthetics. And, like, to me, it was less exciting because really, what it emphasized is just this full transformation of woman into doll. Like, cyborgian Barbie is the ideal, and, like, natural human features are accessories to be, like, clipped on and clipped off. Like, it's not really celebrating natural pubic hair or, like, allowing people to feel good about, you know, having their full bush. It's like, no, you have to be like, this sort of, like, Barbie hairless porcelain ideal first, and then you can put this on or discard it at random.
- [38:28]
B
Totally. Yeah. I would say, first of all, I want to say the work Pat McGrath did is unbelievable. What she can do technically is, like, truly mind blowing. Also, her willingness to, like, experiment, like, you know, like, taking gel and, like, airbrushing it on the face, like, that's just a crazy. That is the work of a mastermind. And what she does. Dior, or what she did with Dior and Galliano was always, like, very similar to that. Very heightened, very incredible. But also. Yeah, I was just thinking, in addition to the, like, the doll prosthetics, it is, to me, also like, a real commentary on kind of, like, how we look at our bodies in today and age especially, you know, like, like, through the lens of the Kardashians, like building, totally building a fictional body and then deleting, you know, and that body parts and like the shape of your mind. So whatever. Like all of that is kind of like up for grabs and you can kind of pick and choose and change your mind whenever you want. That to me really spoke yeah to the Margiela collection because it's like, right, you can pop on some hips, you can wear this crazy corset, you can have a fake merkin, you can have fake boobs. Like, like it's all just kind of like choose your own adventure with your. Which is a very, very Kardashian idea.
- [39:47]
A
And a very like, I mean, it just has to be said, like, dangerous idea. Like all of these, like enhancements comes with like risks, potentially deadly risks. So it's.
- [40:00]
B
I mean, in that light, the collection is kind of like the safer alternative, right?
- [40:06]
A
Like, don't actually get a PBL padded underwear girl.
- [40:13]
B
For sure. And then. Yeah. And basically since the Margiela collection came out, we've just seen it kind of move rapidly through celebrities and we're just seeing a lot more Bush focused fashion. I mean, for one, Bjork wore the, the Margiela look itself on the COVID of Vogue Scandinavia with the mercanthong. And I think that's kind of crazy. Like that put a merkin on the COVID I don't know. I remember putting like just the plain boobs on the COVID of American Vogue is still like something we can't do for some reason because it's pornographic according to the publishing industry. But like, being able to put full bush even in Scandinavia is a pretty big step forward in my opinion. And then also, yeah, I mean, I guess Doja Cat and Julia Fox are kind of bringing this look to the masses, I would say, in their own way. Julia, of course, last month wore a very odd photo printed bikini. And this is not the first time she's worn a photo printed bikini, but it's the first time that she wore one that had like full vagina on it. It's just like a hairy mons pubis that has a fake tattoo on it that says closed and kind of a zipper.
- [41:20]
A
Okay, yes, I remember this now. Yes, yes.
- [41:26]
B
A lot of publications touted it as like a big feminist statement, which I also thought was interesting. I was like, I feel like.
- [41:37]
A
Thinks about what feminism is anymore. It's just like if a woman does it, it's feminism.
- [41:45]
B
Lady doing something that's.
- [41:46]
A
Yeah.
- [41:47]
B
Out there. Feminists. She's doing it in that light. Doja Cat also doing some very feminist things. She wore a. I can never say this woman's name. Delaria. I'm not gonna make it.
- [42:02]
A
Put it in the show note, I don't pronounce the name either.
- [42:06]
B
She wore one of her dresses to the Grammys and it was completely see through and people were making a big deal of it because her boobs were like overflowing out of the dress. Like Ariela fully nip slipped. And people for some reason thought that that was a wardrobe malfunction, even though it was like very intentionally how the dress was designed. And also people were so fixated on how the bust fit her that they did not notice that she was also like not wearing underwear. And I thought that was very interesting. But also full bush out. And then she went on to perform at Coachella in some very. I wouldn't say they were bush, but they're very hairy going forward. One was like a nude bodysuit that Charlie Lemon Du. Charlie Lemon du is like a really famous hairstylist, like wig specialist and apparently he's venturing into clothes now. He made like a hair extension ghillie suit for her.
- [43:00]
A
I thought it was so wild.
- [43:03]
B
Yeah, with all the dancers too. And again, that is a Margiela reference. That is a heavy, heavy Martin Margiela reference. But it looked beautiful. I thought her Coacho, her Coachella performance was very interesting and very beautiful. And she also wore an entire studio's what I've been calling a caveman bikini that just has something about a very hairy pair of briefs.
- [43:25]
A
I love it. I like, I mean at post Margiela show I was thinking about like, you know, whether this is a reflection of reality or you know, the doll part thing. But then I actually got a question for, for people who don't know. I. I write a like sort of an anti beauty advice column for the Guardian every month called Ask Ugly. And I got got a question about, From a like 30 something divorce, a who's starting to date again. And she wrote in asking like, what are people doing with their pubic hair? What am I expected to do?
- [44:00]
B
I love that. That's the top concern too of like someone going back into the dating pools. Like, I gotta know what's going on.
- [44:06]
A
I know. I mean something about it was very distressing to me. And then something about it was like, I. I don't actually know.
- [44:16]
B
I don't know either. I feel like we haven't checked in since like the 90s and early aughts where everyone was just like eliminating it completely.
- [44:23]
A
Exactly. And those are kind of like our formative years. It was like, that is what it's expected, is just full Brazilian. No. No hair left behind. So I put out a poll on my newsletter asking people to, like, respond anonymously about their pubic hair and what they were doing with it. And I actually got over 14,000 responses, which is so much more than I was expecting. Like, I think people really want to talk about this, but, like, only anonymously. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I mean. And the results support the. The comeback of the bush. So, yeah, like, 90 of the people who responded were women. 80% of them remove, like, at least some of their pubes, but 20% don't remove any, which I thought was more than expected. And then 60% don't remove any of, like, their butt or butthole hair. Only 40% do. So I thought that was interesting. And then in the survey, I focused. For this particular question, I focused mainly on straight women and the men who sleep with them. So of the, like, straight women who responded, Only 15% are fully bare right now. 30% are. Are doing the full bush, and 40% are doing a bikini, which is just, like, the sides taken off. 11% are doing, like, a landing strip or little triangle. So, like, the large majority of people who responded are. Have, like, all or most of their pubic hair.
- [46:02]
B
I don't delighted by this, honestly.
- [46:04]
A
No either.
- [46:08]
B
We grew up.
- [46:09]
A
I sort of think that's part of it. Like, I think, like, it's become so normalized to have no pubic hair that it's made pubic hair taboo and therefore, like, sexy now. Like, there's something, like, forbidden and desirable about it. And then of the men who responded, 50% of them said they had no preference at all for what kind of pubic hairstyle their partner had, which I thought was amazing.
- [46:37]
B
They don't. I think, honestly, I was thinking about this recently with sundresses. Like, I think men just don't even notice. Like, they know what things are because they keep saying that they love sundresses. And then people ask them examples, and I'm like, that's not. No one would qualify that as a sundress. It's like a bodycon maxi dress. What are you talking about? So I'm like, of course they don't have preferences for, like, how their partner's pubic hair looks. They don't know.
- [47:04]
A
Of the people who did have a preference, 18% said fully bare, 17% said full bush, which is like a pretty even split. And then most everybody else said, like, Slightly cleaned up, but with most pubic hair left. And then I interviewed European Wax center and they said nationally they're seeing a shift toward a more natural look. So I think it's like happening in real life. Yeah, me too.
- [47:32]
B
I'm loving it. I will say. What did you say? 17% prefer no hair men? I am giving out 70% a hard side eye, but yes. Okay. Sorry.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah, I don't know. At the same time, I'm like, men are just as brainwashed by beauty standards as women are. Like, we all grow up in the same, like, soup of beauty standards. And like, I almost can't fault a man for preferring something the same way. I'm like, not going to fault a woman for, like, feeling like she needs Botox or something. Like, this is just sort of what we grew up with. But I am. I'm pleasantly surprised by the results.
- [48:14]
B
I'm surprised by that as well. Those are some very nice results. I'm glad the bush is back. That's less effort. I think we should always be trending towards. I remember when fashion people started wearing sneakers. It sounds so crazy wearing, like sneakers to fashion shows and stuff. And I was like. And so it begins. Like, not gonna go backwards, you know, like, you are not gonna go from a comfy sneaker shows. That's a good point. That way. Positive, always.
- [48:43]
A
I agree. I mean, which kind of brings me to my favorite part of your last newsletter, which was talking about the makeup that Cardi B almost wore to the Met Gala.
- [48:56]
B
Also my favorite part really, like a huge. The missed opportunity of the century. If you ask me to do something really incredible and really statement making on a Met Gala red carpet. I guess I'll explain for people who don't know. At the Met Gala. Cardi B. Went to the Met Gala and she wore a beautiful dress that she didn't know the designer of. But I guess Alexis Stone. I don't even know where to tell the story. There's so much. Alexis Stone is a pretty well known drag queen. She first became famous on Instagram because she was just transforming herself into different famous people. And then, yeah, in 2019, she went crazy viral because she spent three months pretending to get increasingly extreme plastic surgery on Instagram. So she would like show herself, like fully bandaged up and then like the results and then like going back for touch ups and like getting increasingly kind of disfigured, for lack of a better word, was what she was aiming for mostly as a way to show people's own bias against plastic surgery and people kind of doing things electively as they want. Anyway, so she's. She's an incredible prosthetic makeup designer. And Cardi B. And her stylist Colin Carter hired her to do old age prosthetics for Cardi for the Met Gala. And she posted a bunch of behind the scenes of what that looked like. They ultimately went in a different direction. It did not. So disappointing, which I think is. Yeah, I think it's so disappointing because it was like the full package. Like, Cardi even got this beautiful gray haired wig from Tokyo Styles that just looked exactly like her natural hair, but with, like, full, natural grays in it. And yeah, she looked. She looked like herself, but, you know.
- [50:42]
A
She'S like, very wrinkled.
- [50:43]
B
Well, yeah, very wrinkled, yeah. Very, very aged and still incredibly beautiful.
- [50:50]
A
And I think it was. That would have been such a cool nod to the theme with Garden of Time.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah. And the Burden of Time is also kind of about, like, nothing beautiful. Right? Like, everything is kind of fleeting and any attempt to cling to beauty or, like, youth or wealth, honestly, is what the story was about. Like, ultimately is a folly and it will be stripped from you, and everybody meets the same fate in the end. And so, yeah, to me, that's brilliant. That's perfect. And I. I'm very curious why they decided against it, ultimately, because it is also, it's not like it's distracting from the garment, you know, like, it's very much a natural addition to literally anything that you wear. And so I feel like maybe she just didn't want to be.
- [51:39]
A
I mean, I think that's a really valid point. And while I would have loved to see this makeup at the Met Gala, I do think I probably would have written, like, a pretty scathing critique of it too. Like, it would have been so wonderful to see. And then also, there are just like a million problems with it I can point out right away, which is, again, assuming just like, this natural human feature as a costume while in your real life, like, investing so much time, energy and money into staying perpetually youthful. You know, even if she did that as, like, in alignment with the story that inspired the Met Gala theme, it. I think it would have been very hypocritical because in her real life, she. She is chasing perpetual youth. She doesn't have any, you know, fine lines, wrinkles, signs of aging at all, and she, like, refuses to let herself have that.
- [52:34]
B
Absolutely. And, like, I just caught myself while saying, you know, it's like, oh, it looks like Cardi, how she would naturally look at 60 or 70 and I'm like, oh, but she'll never naturally look like that because there's preventative work going on. She'll literally never achieve that. And by the time that she's that age, she won't look that way because that is how someone who naturally.
- [52:54]
A
I mean, it really reminds me of the big Julia Fox moment, I think last year, maybe the year before, where she made this TikTok that went very viral and she was like, aging is in, like, old is cool. And then I think like a week later or something, she was posting from Instagram with like a ZM in partnership, like a sponsored ad for like injectable neurotoxins. Like, she was so happy to say aging is cool and yet will not allow herself to age.
- [53:24]
B
Also just totally and also, like a crazy statement from someone who is into a Gen Z demographic. Like, I get she's trying to speak to younger people and be like, no, it's cool that like, I'm. Because I'm like old. And it's like, usually it Girls are like 18 and that way aging is cool. It's like, like the fact that you even have to make that qualifier makes it clear to me that you do not think aging is cool and you're like a little self conscious about it and then you're going to get a Zeomin endorsement. So clearly you don't like aging and it too much.
- [53:55]
A
It's like an equal but opposite glorification of youth. Like, older women have more opportunities, but only if they look like younger women in Hollywood specifically. I mean, like, I'm thinking about all of the, like, covers and coverage of like, you know, Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman and all these women who are like in their 50s JLo. And it's like, oh, we're celebrating older women, but you're only celebrating them because they look like they're 25 to 35.
- [54:24]
B
Like, those are a very specific type of older woman who are like Botox and makeup and tan to the mat, you know, like, they are the, the physical. They're like, they have all of the wealth that makes them look young. And so they are beautiful as like older women or even. I was just thinking about, like, there's a certain set of older age models in fashion that like the industry always turns to. And it's always just amazing to me how uniform these like, older visions of beauty are. Like, I'm thinking about Elon Musk, specifically May Musk or Linda Rhoden. You know, it's like perfect white hair, like Minimal wrinkles, like, incredibly, incredibly thin still. And it's like, well, look at. Look how preserved they are. Yeah, well, they've held up.
- [55:15]
A
Yeah. I mean, even like Martha Stewart.
- [55:19]
B
Yes, absolutely. Martha Stewart on the COVID of Sports Illustrated for sure. Well, this old broad has held up like you. You kind of still want to her, huh?
- [55:28]
A
Like, yeah, I just, like, I don't buy into the like, celebration of aging thing. If the celebration doesn't include what like actual aging women look like. Like, that's.
- [55:42]
B
Yes. Or even just like some nod to like all the work that goes in to being an older woman who looks that way. Like, if you can't acknowledge all the artificiality that goes into that aids, or then it's not very interesting. Not interesting when they all look the same, which is young. It's like.
- [56:03]
A
Yeah, I know, I know. What, you're looking at them all the time.
- [56:04]
B
Actually, I don't see them all the time. Would love to see an authentically old person just being themselves.
- [56:11]
A
But in a certain way, JoJo Siwa is kind of like a. Kind of like a foil to that too, because it's like she's obviously trying to look older, not in like a wrinkled, aging way, but in like a mature, edgy way.
- [56:30]
B
And yeah, I think that's a big problem with her rebrand is it's like kids idea of what adults look like or like adults do or how adults talk. It's like so crazy. And it's like that makes it very inauthentic to you and very not.
- [56:48]
A
Yeah, I'm just like fascinated watching the rebrand and watching like the confidence of her rebrand. So I mean, JoJo Siwa is known for like being a child star. She was on Dance Moms, she became a pop star. She was known for like that really slick back ponytail with the bow rainbows. And now she's sort of trying to rebrand into like this edgy older pop artist. But like, I think what was the first, like, image of the rebrand was sort of that like, Kiss makeup. Right.
- [57:22]
B
I do believe. Yeah, it was the Kiss makeup. She's just doing exactly what she was doing as a child star, but in black now. And it is just like the. Her idea of like a goth take on like her exact aesthetic. And yeah, we have like the messy Kiss makeup, which also drives me crazy because I'm like, girl, you're a billionaire. Like, you could get a professional to do this and make it actually look. Look good or like, I don't know. I was Gene Simmons.
- [57:48]
A
I know, because I Don't even think she's, like, talking about that inspiration. And I think that's what bugs me about her rebrand is, like, she's very confident about what she's doing. She's like, no one has ever rebranded in my. In my age bracket as edgy as I am. She said she was, like, inventing a new category of music called gay pop.
- [58:14]
B
She is like, she thinks that she's like a singular entity. Kamala Harris quote where she's like, you're a coconut that just fell.
- [58:22]
A
Yes.
- [58:23]
B
This context, she is a coconut that just fell off a tree. Like, she does not. No context in her mind. Like, she thinks she invented gay pop. She thinks she's the first person who ever did this. I just saw a clip from some new interview she did the other day where she was like, no, influencer is also making music. I'm the only influencer who's, like, doing music like this. And the interviewer, like, starts to push back, and she's like, no, I mean, like, equal parts. Like, I am an influencer and I am also a pop star. And everyone's like, no, no. That's a crazy statement to be made. But I also think, you know, she is. I don't know, it's just such child star behavior. Like, no one has ever told her no or no one has ever told her that. Like, maybe that's not the best idea. Or, like, maybe we could do better or, like, you look stupid, right?
- [59:10]
A
And it feels like just a lack of, like, knowledge of or respect for, like, the craft of, like, a style or music. Like, there's no update in, like, her sound, really. It's pretty juvenile pop, right? Still and.
- [59:26]
B
Absolutely. And I also resent the comparisons to Miley Cyrus because it's like. But Miley Cyrus did something actually radical for her time. Like, she was very polarizing. People were very mad at her. Like, really? And also, it's like, to me, Miley's reinvention felt like a lifting of the veil, you know what I mean? Where it's like, she was actually pretending the childhood stuff for us to make us feel better about, like, her young woman. Right. And then she kind of, like, lifted the facade and was like, this is who I'm actually. I'm like, I'm crazy and raunchy and, like, smoke pot. And everyone had just be like, okay, I guess so.
- [60:00]
A
That's such a good point. Like, JoJo feels like she's creating a veil of edginess to, like, disguise that she is sort of this just like, kitty Bop pop star who, like, wants to be big and cool.
- [60:14]
B
Yes. But it also makes me wonder. It's like, I think that there is no. There's nothing behind the veil. Like, I think performance. I think she is, like, this character. Like, I don't know that there is a real core Jojo that she could be referencing and, like, pulling from behind that. And especially, like, I don't know if you know about her mother.
- [60:34]
A
Not too much.
- [60:35]
B
Her dynamics with her mother. It's pretty gnarly. Like, I think that it's like, there's so much weird family dynamics wrapped up in this stuff and, like, childhood trauma stuff and, like, her not processing any of it. That is kind of leading a climactic, almost downfall moment because she, like, can't look at herself authentically or, like, understand what happened to her. Because basically, Jojo is from the reality show Dance Moms. And I think we all know what was wrong with Dance Moms. Abby Lee Miller spoke to those young women to the point that many of them have PTSD from it and, like, speak about it to this day and talk about how it's, like, the most horrific time of their lives, and they were, like, bullied by an adult every day and told, like, what was wrong with them. And JoJo has no ill recollections of those times. She loved it. She has only positive things to say about Abby Lee. She's, like, maybe the only dance star, Dance mom star, still in touch with her.
- [61:35]
A
I don't know. All of this backstory.
- [61:37]
B
Yeah, Yeah. A lot of. A lot of lore to JoJo. Yeah. So basically, and as you see on Dance Moms, like, it's called Dance Moms because the moms are aggressively pushy and, like, living through their children. And you Absolutely. All that with Jojo's mom. And now Jojo's doing all these interviews as part of this relaunch, including the caller Daddy one. And on it, she explains that her whole life, her mom would make it, like, this big recurring deal that she was going to turn 18 and get access to her Coogan fund, which is, like, for child stars. It's. I think it's like, a really small. The revenue, but they. Really small. It's a really small percentage, especially when you're working literally your entire life up to that point. Anyway, so JoJo's mom used to, like, drill it into her that she. Her biggest fear in life was JoJo would turn 18, get access to the Coogan account, and then cut her family out entirely from her fortune. And she made Jojo Promise her that she would never do that. And JoJo was like my whole life. I told her over and over again like I was, I would never do that. You know, I couldn't dream of that. But she wouldn't believe me. So to prove it to her, when I turned 18, I gave her half of my Coogan fun. Half of 10% of what you've made your entire childhood. I think that speaks to like so much psychic and emotional damage that like she can't even begin to.
- [63:07]
A
Wow.
- [63:08]
B
To examine. So yeah, I think all of this makes a lot of sense. And her mom is behind all her causes.
- [63:13]
A
I mean, you can kind of tell, like they do look like, like dance moms costumes, like sized up for an adult. Wow. Yes. I mean, I would be interested to see what JoJo Siwa would like look like or become without her mom's involvement then.
- [63:31]
B
Me too. I. I have said in the newsletter 10 million times, like the first magazine that gets like full carte blanche with her and can do like a full reinvention, like authentically, not like a. That just like puts her in a ball gown or whatever with the same slipped back hair. I think could really make a statement. Could like bring back print publishing. If you ask me. That's something I want to see. But yeah, her mom would never see creative control like that. I mean, she literally doesn't wear designers. She doesn't wear.
- [63:59]
A
That's a good point. I guess I've never like noticed that I haven't seen her in like designer things or like with a partnership three.
- [64:08]
B
Stage stage, where it's all like fishnet sequins and.
- [64:13]
A
Yeah, I mean it's like the kind of stuff I wore when I was like in tap class when I was 6 years old. Like I have, I have the photo evidence for sure. What do you think of Camila Cabello's rebrand? Do you have any thoughts on that?
- [64:29]
B
I'm really torn about Camila Cabello's rebrand because I think it's working for her, honestly. But like, I miss my.
- [64:36]
A
See, I never had. I like, wasn't a fan before this. She like, was not really on my radar. Not that you were a fan.
- [64:45]
B
Just observing from a. And like making all her stands. Oh my God. Yeah, her stands. Used to. At the beginning, they used to tell me that they hoped my whole family got Covid and died.
- [64:56]
A
Oh no.
- [64:58]
B
Because I. Because I made a joke on Twitter about. It was in the early days of the pandemic when her and Shawn Mendes were like going on zombie walks every Day. Oh, I remember the slow stroll. And I one suggested that that's staged, and they didn't like that. And then I too, happened to notice that their coffee cups were empty. Got both those facts, and they told me me and my family should die. And I was like, seems reasonable.
- [65:24]
A
Stan. Stan, Twitter is out of control.
- [65:29]
B
She weirdly has very. A very intense Stan. Like. Like, I feel like they fly under the radar, but they are right up there with the Swifties in terms of just like, I actually.
- [65:38]
A
Yeah, I wouldn't have guessed that for some reason.
- [65:42]
B
Well, it certainly doesn't show.
- [65:44]
A
Right? I mean, I guess that's maybe why she hasn't been on my radar as much. But, like, as soon as I Love it came out a couple months ago, I was like, I'm all in. I love this. I think she's a genius. I mean, I think it's corny. I think it's, like, definitely corny, but. But for some reason, like, I feel like whatever she's doing or whatever she's trying to do, like, works more. Like, for some reason, it feels like more authentic to me. I'm reading this book called Aspiration by Agnes Callard. You've probably seen her go viral on Twitter. She's like, a kind of problematic philosopher. But this book is interesting. And so she just, like, talks about how, like, there is sort of. There has to be sort of a period of, like, posing and in inauthenticity when you. Before you can, like, change your values or change what you like or who you are, like, you have to aspire to that. There has to be, like, this spark within you that says, I'm attracted to this even though I know nothing about it. And then you have to go on, like, the aspirational journey of, like, figuring out why you're attracted to this certain thing or why you want to value this other thing and, like, put the work in. And so for. I don't know, for some reason, I'm. I look at Camilla Cabello and I'm like, this feels like an authentic aspiration. Like, it feels like she's done the work. She's. She has references. She, like, created this whole, like, mission statement for her rebrand, like, via a trailer for her album, which is, you know, unhinged but very entertaining.
- [67:21]
B
Trailer for an album alone is.
- [67:23]
A
Feels like, exactly, exactly.
- [67:25]
B
And it's.
- [67:25]
A
I mean, I don't know why I'm. I love watching it. I can't explain why I love watching it. She also says something in the trailer about tanning. She says like, we. We tan because what's the difference? We fly too close to the sun anyway. And I just, like, sort of love that in a period where everyone's doing faux tanning and, like, like being evangelical about sunscreen, I'm like, you're. You're doing it. Camila, she's different.
- [67:51]
B
No, not like other girls. I don't care. Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think that made me think of two things. For one, it's like that to me, really speaks to. Also, just like being a young woman in your 20s. Also, like, you're trying out all these different aesthetics and you're trying to find yourself. And so it does make sense. It's like, at first, it feels like you're posing, and then you find whatever the reality is there. And also, I think Camila is tapping into something that's like, yes, very Miami. And she is from Miami. And so it's like there is a realness there. Like, that is how she grew up. Those are the. The aesthetics and the subculture she's drawing from are the ones around her and, like, what she's seen. So I think that does work better. To me, it's a touch date.
- [68:35]
A
I mean, it's very spring breakers.
- [68:39]
B
It's extremely. As a spring breakers, Stan, foremost how I identify myself, I will say it's deeply spring breakers to me, which makes it feel old to my eye. But I also wonder if for a Gen Z audience that feels fresher to them. No. Like a harmony Corinne Touchstone. Like that.
- [68:58]
A
No, that's awesome.
- [68:58]
B
I don't know, but I saw the neon ski masks and immediately like, I'm.
- [69:02]
A
Like, okay, no, 100%. She does talk about Miami in the trailer too. There's a very funny line where she's like, like, they said the city would be underwater by now, but then again, they said she would be too. I just love it. I like. I just love the dedication, I think. I don't know.
- [69:21]
B
It comes at the right time in her life, too. Like post breakup with Shawn Mendes, you know, it's like the classic breakover, you know, I like it. I don't is working for her so much, but I get the intention again. I know my true Camilla.
- [69:35]
A
You do?
- [69:37]
B
And she's not like a high maintenance gal. She's not an upkeep gal. And that. That part is a real upkeep. We just saw a photo of her this week where she's wearing, like, a baseball cap atop her head in, like, a really crazy way. And it's like, right, Because Your hair is like, too unwieldy to get it down over the edge of their hair. I don't know. It looks like when someone's wearing a wig and then they put a baseball cap on top. I don't know. I like it. I just. I like her messier. I like her kind of like boho, like, just fell out of the free people. Oh, my gosh.
- [70:10]
A
Yes. She has very free people aesthetic, which I. I'm into.
- [70:15]
B
She does. I'm looking forward to the integration when she figures out how to like you look with like, who she really is. And I think there's something promising there. I do think she should, should make it so her label stops just like putting random rappers on her song. Well, I mean, Cardi, that's like a huge gag, you know, he does not. He is not a willing participant in like his entire career. Like, you can barely get him to show up for anything. So the fact that he actually recorded it is kind of phenomenal. It's one of his worst verses and like, like, his connection to her is like, non existent. But. But, yeah, yeah. Interesting. An Interesting rebrand versus JoJo's not so interesting rebrand. Although the dance that goes with karma.
- [71:01]
A
I can't stop watching.
- [71:05]
B
Did you see the new video where she's teaching Mario Lopez? Do you see the woman in the background of the video where she's teaching Mario Lopez? Holy. That woman is.
- [71:14]
A
Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating to watch.
- [71:19]
B
I love it. I also think every time I see her do it, like, that can't be good for the brain. No, that violently and quickly. I feel like I'm concerned.
- [71:30]
A
I'm concerned for her well being. Yes.
- [71:34]
B
On multiple levels, for sure.
- [71:36]
A
Should we. Should we get to our. Our respective messes of the month? We've already been talking for so long. I was like, are we gonna talk for like 30 minutes even? And it's been over an hour.
- [71:49]
B
I know. I knew this was going to happen, that we're going to end up talking for like five hours about introductory coming. My mess of the month is a queen and an icon named Ava Louise, who is an onlyfans model. But I think that she's destined to become like, the performance artist of our generation. She is our new Marina Abramovic and she's like, chaotic and fabulous. She's Marina Abramovic, like, crossed with Trisha Paytas. And I think that's.
- [72:17]
A
Maybe that's an astute observation. Yes.
- [72:23]
B
Basically, Ava, like I said, onlyfans model. Most recently, she got the portal in New York shut down because she flashed all the people in Dublin on the other side. And from what I've read, it's like. It isn't. She isn't the reason I got shut down, but it's, like, behavior like what she did. There's, like, a lot of sexual happenings in and around the portal, which, when you consider they put it in Times Square and it's on 24. 7, and there's no.
- [72:52]
A
They expect to happen. I wonder if anyone showed bush.
- [72:58]
B
I'm sure they were planning to before it got shut down. We'll have to wait a couple weeks for someone to get on there full vag out, but. So Ava's getting a lot of the blame for shutting down the portal. And then it kind of kicked off this thing on the Internet with, like, people remembering who Ava Louise is. So a lot. I saw a lot of media outlets that's tied. She's the girl who, at like, the height of the pandemic, licked an airplane seat and then immediately got Covid. Immediately. And everyone's like, what? I don't really know what you thought was gonna happen when you did that, but, yeah, that's. That's it. So a lot of people figured out that, but they all. They didn't connect it to the full Ava Louise lore. So I just want to put it out there. Like, everything that she's done kind of in recent years, chaos that she's unleashed on pop culture. So, of course, the airplane toilet seat licking. She is also the woman who made up the rumor about Kanye west and Jeffree star dating, which really took the world by storm. People were really like, how do you.
- [73:56]
A
Even have the, like. Like, clout and platform and believability to, like, get this going?
- [74:04]
B
That's just the power of, like, TikTok and a really, like, rumor, you know, like, we really don't care about truth. If it just, like, sounds good to us and seems fun. And I do, like, that's obviously a very dangerous part about culture, but I also think it's fun of us. It's like. It's like, if the. If the rumor is good, we're just kind of like, it's good. Like, let's. Let's spread it. That's neat. So she got that one going and then later admitted that she just fully made it up. She also dated Addison, Ray's dad, like, immediately after he got divorced from Ray's mom. And it was very chaotic and very. I don't know if you know about as dad, but he's like, Maybe just the saddest on the Internet. He's like, such a pathetic example of a man. Him dating Ava Louise, like, made perfect sense, but also just, like, clever of her to even think to shimmy on in there.
- [74:56]
A
Like, that's. That's diabolical.
- [74:59]
B
Yeah, she is diabolic. I should have led with that. She is diabolical. She's not maybe like a good role model, but she is a fascinating pop culture figure. I guess that's kind of the Trisha Paytas of it all. But she also. I don't know if she made up the story, but it certainly seems a little made up to me, which is that she said that Amazon, like, sent her a bunch of used menstrual pads.
- [75:21]
A
I just don't see how that's happening.
- [75:23]
B
Yeah, I guess, like, somehow possible in some world. But she got a ton of headlines for it it. And that's definitely why she's telling these stories. And then just the last thing that I'm sure she's actually done way more than this. This is just like a cursory Google on my part. But she reported. Let me back up a second. She made allegations against Blac Chyna that Blac Chyna is sex trafficking and specifically was trying to sex traffic her. And then black. I think she just made these claims on TikTok and then BLAC Chyna sent her a cease and desist, obviously for making, like, defamation against her. And then she says that she reported Blac Chyna to the FBI in response to the cease and desist.
- [76:07]
A
Oh, my gosh. I mean, that is sort of talent to get yourself embroiled in, like, feuds with these top, top, top level celebrities. And.
- [76:20]
B
It'S a classic. It's a classic PR maneuver. And it's just really. She's deploying them really well. It reminds me of how I used to talk about Julia Fox when she first unto the scene. Is like, she was really following Kim Kardashian's, like, fame playbook very carefully. And I was like, that's so smart because Kim invented this formula of, like, being famous for nothing and, like, how one maneuvers within the press to, like, make that work for yourself and build a brand. And Julia Fox did the same thing in Ava. Now I think is maybe her protege, but, like, way more controversial, way more like, willing to get in the weeds.
- [76:53]
A
And, like, like she doesn't care about protecting a good name at all.
- [76:58]
B
Like, yes, like troll of the century. And I think we always kind of need a troll figure in pop culture. To like.
- [77:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's like a classic fairy tale archetype for a reason. We need the troll.
- [77:12]
B
Absolutely. So my mess of the month.
- [77:14]
A
Incredible. I'm. I'm so happy to know her now.
- [77:19]
B
Me too. I. I look forward to seeing where her career goes from.
- [77:23]
A
My mess of the month is BBL Drizzy. Yeah. I have been paying attention to the Kendrick Lamar and Drake feud, as has everyone, I think. And.
- [77:39]
B
Really, I just want to put that out there. I'm an OG Drake hater. I have been inquiring since the days he signed to Young Money. What is this young man from Degrassi doing? Like, why are we taking him seriously as an artist?
- [77:54]
A
Most people are on your side now. So, like, as like a little bit of a backstory. Like, Kendrick and Kendrick Lamar and Drake are in a feud. Most of, like Kendrick Lamar's claims are like, serious. Like he's accusing Drake of being a pedophile, of grooming young women, of being an absent father. But to me, the messiest and most entertaining part is how much plastic surgery factors into this feud. Like right at the heart, not in ozempic cosmetic enhancements. So, like, Drake is being accused of taking Ozempic, having a Brazilian butt lift, getting lipo, getting ab etching done. And I just think it's so fascinating how like, you know, like, the Tupac Biggie feud started because, like, Tupac accused Biggie of having him shot, and now like the shots in rap feuds are our Ozempic shots. And yeah, I just like, I can't stop thinking about it. I talked to my, my analyst about, and she pointed out, she was like, this is part like, what we're seeing in like pop culture is like de pathologizing masculinity a little bit. Like, it's becoming more common for men to get these typically like, feminine coded treatments. But then I was like, the thing is, is we're not de pathologizing femininity at the same time. Like, these things are still coded as feminine and that's why they're seen as like, worthy of derision. Like, that's why it's an insult, because it's a feminine coded behavior and it's like, it's not for any legitimate reason that we're. That, you know, Kendrick and. And whoever is talking about this. For Drake, it's not like, oh, these are for bad beauty standards to be perpetuating. It's like the, the butt of the joke is that it's feminine.
- [79:48]
B
Yes. And that also it kind of like it underscores Kendrick's point about, like, how he's different from real rap artists, right? Like real men, real rap artists, those types of practices. But like this fake Hollywood.
- [80:03]
A
Yeah.
- [80:03]
B
Singer who want pretty for the girls. Like, I believe you see two bad bitches, right? Like, same as the women that you collaborate with because you engage in the same beauty practices of them to a certain extent and you're obsessed with your beauty and aesthetics.
- [80:18]
A
Have you ever read the book Heroines by Kate Zambrino? I'm reading it right now. I mean, it's not. It's like a fragment nonfiction autobiography novel. So it's not my favorite, like, format, but there's some really interesting. It's about like literary wives who have like, gone mad throughout history or like been institutionalized. But I found this really great quote in it from Elaine Showalter who was talking about like, historical, like female madness. And I highlighted it because I was like, oh, this reminds me of BBL Drizzy. But she said what? The name of the symbolic. While the name of the symbolic female disorder may change from one historical period to the next, the gender asymmetry of the representational tradition remains constant. So it's like the representation of plastic surgery is still feminine no matter who is getting it, no matter, like, across what demographics. And because it is still like so deeply coded as feminine, it will always be like, worthy of sort of like making fun of or calling out.
- [81:20]
B
And that's really interesting. I think that's interesting even. It's like this BBL stuff. It's like the accusations about Drake and plastic surgery have been around forever, like long before this beef. But the BBL element of it, it's like that is also part of the feminization. Because what we know. I mean, no, we don't know. What is rumored to be known about Drake's plastic surgery is liposuction and AB etching, right? But it's like NBL is such like a, you know, it's become such like a catch all, like, phrase for like a woman who like, does plastic surgery. Like, oh, it's like a B girl, you know. And so it's interesting to me the way that they all of. All of the technical, like what Drake is actually doing has just been kind of foiled down into this BBL catchall phrase. And you can even see that's like, it's the branding of it, right? Because nobody was saying this until Rick Ross just decided BBL Drizzy. And now it's like the meme of it all is taken off because People can really latch on to that, I think, in a way, and they can understand the subtext of that. They might not understand and say, oh, this man has gone ab etching.
- [82:30]
A
It's like, no, that's such a good point.
- [82:34]
B
But sounds masculine.
- [82:36]
A
Yeah, actually, yeah, I. Yeah, I remain fascinated. And I, like. I do think that there are, like. Like, I think we're seeing cosmetic surgery or, like, aesthetic enhancements come up in so many, like, debates in. In areas where they normally would not be talked about. Like, Like a rap feud. Like, the literary it girl discourse that's happening right now, like, even in Congress. Like, Marjorie Taylor Greene just, like, called out Jasmin Crockett's fake eyelashes. Like, we're seeing, like, beauty culture is just getting, like, bigger and worse, and we're seeing, like, the pressure of it, like, create all of these arguments in spaces where, like, normally you wouldn't necessarily see beauty being a focal point.
- [83:26]
B
And also, it brings to mind. I don't know if. I mean, Kendrick seems to have, like, every reference under his belt and knows exactly what he's doing, so perhaps that is also part of the lipo tactic. But to me, it brought up another iconic rap feud between Remy Ma and Nicki Minaj, where Remy Ma, when she got out of prison, she released Shether, which is obviously the female version of Nas's Ether. And in it, she reveals that she was talking to Meek Mill one day, Nikki's boyfriend at the time, and he said that they hadn't had sex in months because Nikki's.
- [83:59]
A
I like, I missed this moment in pop culture history.
- [84:04]
B
I, like, remember exactly what. Where I was when I heard that name. I will never forget Remy Ma and the song conceded.
- [84:13]
A
I'm gonna have to create a playlist. Like, we need to make maybe a mess playlist of.
- [84:20]
B
Conceited. Also right up the review of Beauty's alley. I'm conceited. I got a reason.
- [84:26]
A
I love that. Wow. Okay, it's been an hour and a half now. Now we know we can. We can. We can yap for hours. So I guess. Thank you, everyone, for listening. As a reminder, my name is Jessica Defino. I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty, which you can subscribe to to get this future iterations of the podcast in your inbox.
- [84:53]
B
I am Emily Kirkpatrick, and I write I Heart Mess. And you should also subscribe to that. It's right on substack along Jessica's. And I will be reposting this somehow in a way that makes sense on there.
- [85:05]
A
Okay, thank you for listening. Bye.