← The Revive Stronger Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
Pete, you've been training for well over two decades. I'm now in that club as well. Most people will just tell us, hey, gains are basically over at this point. Like why are you even bothering to continue to try and build any muscle? But for you, I think it's fair to say you had a little bit of a quote unquote growth spurt this, this late into your career. I'd love to hear kind of what specifically that looked like and yeah, just dive into the things from there.
- [00:28]
B
Yeah, I, I mean I think yeah, this year was the, the heaviest, heaviest I've ever been on stage since like getting to striated glutes lean. So I mean I, my, my first four con like 04,0608, even 2012 when I won my pro card, like the conditioning wasn't what it is now. So like I wasn't striated glutes lean. Like starting 20, 20, 16, you know, I competed 2016, 20, 20, 2023 this year, like with, I worked with Cliff all those years and like got to that level of conditioning. And so like this year was the heaviest I've been on stage with that level of conditioning. And so yeah, I bottomed out about six pounds heavier than I did a decade ago. I mean even like 4 to 6 heavier than three years ago, you know, and it's crazy. Like I was, I was like comparing my pictures from a decade ago to now. Like I was leaner now and six pounds heavier at the lowest. And so I definitely made progress throughout my 30s. And so I think the biggest difference this last off season is I started having Cliff program my training and started doing some crazy stuff, like crazy stuff that's like the opposite of the direction most of the evidence based fitness world is going. Like, most. And you, you know this as well, right? I know you train with a lot of volume, right? And the rest of the evidence based fitness world is, you know, is all like about low volume and getting rid of junk volume and all of that. And like working with Cliff. My average workout during prep was like two hours long. There were days that it took me three hours to get through the crazy stuff that you know, you would have me doing. And so it was like the exact opposite of what you know, everyone else was doing. And but it worked. It was the best I ever looked. I added muscle. I, you know, I, in, you know, I, I think it worked great. So I think it's a combination of that plus in, I think it was 27 months between my last prep and the start of dieting. For these shows and I want to say we had like 24 or 25 of those months out of a deficit. So I mean that obviously helps when you know, you have, you know, I'm not in a deficit. And then I lived. I never, I live somewhere between 180 to 1 93, 195. And so I competed this year, carved up on stage, I was 160, but the two shows that I was the fullest and looked the best and so I lived at like 20, 30 over, maybe even up to 35 over. So I never got closer than that, you know. So like I, I was always in a. We spent pretty much the entire off season at body compositions where I'm at my strongest. I spent most of it out of a deficit. Training was insane. I've never trained, you know, I mean, ran something with this much volume and, and I mean it definitely took me out of my comfort zone. And I think that. And then just prep was, you know, I. We did the pre prep, cut the, the diet break for a couple months, got food high again and then went the rest of the way and then we're able to like add food going in and carb up fairly aggressively. And so I think it's combination of all of that probably is, is why
- [03:52]
A
we can, we can definitely dive into some specifics because people are going to want to hear more about the crazy training, of course. And I mean you're already breaking myths of like growing muscle in your 30s. Growing muscle after a decade of training, let alone people who think you're basically capped out after like five years. Which is awesome to hear about and to know that, yeah, six pounds in a decade since you competed, that doesn't sound quite like crazy, but it visibly looks incredible on the physique. If people haven't seen the post from you. And I know how impactful and anyone who's been bodybuilding a long time knows how impactful. Just like pounds of extra muscle on top of an already very muscular physique can make. But then to think you're already three or four pounds heavier than the last season. Clearly something like that growth spurt happened relatively recently. I'd be interested in, uh, actually you first of all, just because it's a scratch, I. An itch I need to scratch. Are you five eight, five nine or.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah, about that. Yep.
- [04:49]
A
Okay, so 160 on stage around that height, which is the kind of where I was getting that reference from. So I think that's where a lot of very advanced natural bodybuilders get at that sort of height for sure. And then was there a point of which you realized those gains? Did you realize it during the off season, or is it when you started dieting down or like the pre prep that you did?
- [05:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think a little bit in the off season, I, you know, I would take some pictures. Like, I don't. I snap a picture in the gym here, you know, like in, like, the locker room, the gym after a workout or, you know, whatever, then a gym with the posing room with some good lighting here or there. And I, I, you know, I was like, I think I'm making some progress. And then I was at a gym that had a posing room probably about a year ago, like, right around now. And, you know, shortly before, you know, a couple months before we started prep, and I snapped a couple pictures and I was. I. I think I posted them, I sent them to Cliff, and he. We're just like, whoa. Like, you know, I was. I was probably like one. I was probably like 192, 193. I mean, I was 32. Like, 32. 33 pounds over what I competed this year. So, like, I wasn't lean lean, but, like, for where. You know what I mean? Like, I. I had a lot more size, like, in thickness to me. And then when I started dieting down. Yeah, I. I got to. We kind of did that pre prep phase and got me from the low 190s down to, like, the low 170s. And I remember I snapped. I was at a show with clients, and, you know, they did their check in, and I had flown to the show, and I was kind of bored waiting around and, you know, for them. And so the hotel had some decent lighting, so I snapped a couple pictures, and I was somewhere in the low to mid-170s. And like, at that point, I was like, oh, okay. Like, I am leaner now than what I normally look like at that weight. And then, yeah, as we got closer and closer, like, I. I would sudden, you know, be taking progress pictures for Cliff, and we get to, like, 165 and, you know, and. And it'd be like, okay, like, I'm not ready yet, but, like, I'm not that far off, you know, and. And like, I was getting. So I bottomed out. In my previous first three preps with Cliff, I had bottomed out at like 1:51,153. Before I carved up this year, I bottomed out at 157. Um, and so, like, I started getting into low 160s. It was like, man, I don't have 10 pounds to go. You know what I mean? Like, it. And so I think it was kind of gradually over time, but I just kept seeing it as I kept getting leaner and taking more pictures.
- [07:17]
A
Yeah, I think that's the great thing. You want to take pictures during your off season to like. And then you can compare, like when you're at 190, just over 190. Did you compare back to previous times?
- [07:28]
B
Yeah, and I take far less pictures in my off season because the progress is so slow, you know? Um, you know, and then, you know, I'm not taking weekly pictures in my off season because you don't see any difference. But. Yeah, no, and. And I think too. Just. Yeah, I think I, I also. One thing I think that helped a lot this prep too, is I got a phone with a better camera. Like, I actually spent some money on a decent phone with a good camera to like, really accurately reflect. And I got some really good stage shots this year just off the camera from my phone, not even counting the professional ones or whatever. And that helped too because I, I was able to better, like, see, okay, this is what I think I'm seeing in the mirror and then like, standardize a progress picture set up and with. With a better camera. And I'm like, okay, I, I am seeing that, you know, and I think, I think that helped a lot too because like I said, I don't lift to the gym with like, opposing room or great lighting or. You know what I mean? So, like, most of my progress pictures are like over in my, my kitchen, you know, at like five o' clock in the morning, you know, like, so nothing special.
- [08:40]
A
A camera can make a world of difference. And yeah, the shots you can get on stage sometimes are just incredible. Now with the cameras that are fitted into these phones now, is there any areas on your physique you noticed? This is where it went. Like, did your shoulders look broader or thicker or like quads or.
- [08:57]
B
Any areas of my body, I would say, like the backside of my, like my back is still not a strength, but like, I don't. My hamstrings have become like hamstring glute area especially. Hamstrings are like one of my best body parts now. I like, they've, over the last, probably, I don't know, five to 10 years have come up a ton. But like the backside of my body, I think I posted that, like, I did like the Kentucky Pro show in 2016 for my first pro show and I did it this year and I have that day of the show, like hotel room side by side with a tan on and me hitting a rear double buy. And it's like night and day different. And that's, that's where, like I said, I'm six pounds heavier and leaner now than a decade ago, you know, and. But I think there and then when we really carved up aggressively, like the, the last show of the year, we carved up really pretty aggressively, and I was starting to maybe soften just a touch in my glue tams from the rear, but boy, my quads just fill. I mean, filled out and look nuts, the amount of comments I got on, you know, So I think lower body is probably where a lot of it went, which is cool, because when I first started competing, the first few shows I ever did, I kept getting told, hey, bring up your legs, bring up your legs, bring up. Like, I heard that all the time, right? And then that finally got better and then it was bring up your back. Which I'm still trying to do. Um, but I think that's where I, I think that's where a lot of it went. I, you know, from what I've seen,
- [10:31]
A
and actually, that was a really good point. You mentioned where it was six pounds heavy, heavier than a decade ago, but also leaner. So it's maybe £10 or so of muscle. Like who? You can't precisely say, but that, that's really significant.
- [10:44]
B
Well, that's, that's where too, you know, I posted that comparison back to my first show in 2004, where it's 22 years apart. Right. Me at 18 versus me at 40, and I'm 15 pounds heavier and leaner now. And so people, you know, people think, oh, well, it's only £15 in your stage weight. Maybe, you know, I'm leaner, so maybe it's closer to 20 pounds of muscle. But 20 pounds of muscle in 22 years doesn't sound like much, you know, because enhanced guys can put that on in, you know, an off season. But it made a fairly large visual difference.
- [11:15]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, and you mean you went from someone who you'd be like, I don't know if bodybuilding's for you. I very much relate to your first shows and, like, how I looked. I was like, ah, people were kind of doubting. And then you just continue to go, and it's like, oh, actually you're a pro. And I mean, you won. You had a really terrific season, which we'll talk about in a bit in regards to your own journey here. When you got into like your 30s and you've been these, these past years, where was your mindset at in regards to bodybuilding? Did you still think you would be growing or did you think, I'm kind of done here? Where was your own personal head?
- [11:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, I thought I could still grow. Like, I, I think by the time I turned 30 and started doing like pro, like I'd won my pro card at 26, did my first pro shows at 30. I think at that point like I was like, okay, like I don't have, and I still don't have the genetics to like win the Orton cup or WNBF World, you know, Like I, I am not genetically, you know what I mean, like elite, but you know, I, I thought, okay, well I, I'm decent, you know what I mean? Like, I've done a pretty good job with average genetics of, of building a pretty decently competitive physique. And so, you know, I, it's, how far can I take this? You know, and, and that's, that's what I, I don't know. That's the part of it I kind of enjoy is like, especially now that it's been like 25 years of lifting, I can, you know, post some of these multi decade transformations where I don't even look like I really lifted weights after I lifted weights for two or three years. Like I, I gained 45 pounds of muscle, 45 pounds of weight the first two years I lifted. And I can post those pictures and be, and show like, hey, I barely look like I lifted weights, you know, and I gained 45 pounds in two years of lifting, you know, with my newbie gains and it, you know, and so it's cool to just see, you know, how far can I take this with someone who just has, I wouldn't, I don't have bad genetics, but I don't have great genetics, like fairly average genetics. And you know, and, and that part's cool. And now that I'm getting in my 40s, it's, you know, how many more years can I keep growing and keep doing this? And I, I mean I have clients competing into their 60s. So I mean, it's like, it's like, okay, like let's keep doing this for a couple decades, you know, more yet and keep going.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah, I think that mindset is so key. I think so many people have that self limiting belief of, I don't know, age being the fact that it's going to stop them or they see someone talk about the fact that you're pretty much near your genetic ceiling after three or four years. So is there any point continuing or. They look or similar, like, for your journey, it would have been pretty fair for you to be like, oh, five years in, man, I don't look as impressive as so many other individuals. Why would I keep going? And I was in a similar spot, but I imagine similar to myself. It was a case of you just fell in love with the process. So it was like, see how far I can take it.
- [14:10]
B
Yeah, I took dead last at my first show in my classes and still loved it. And, yeah, five years. Had five years in. I mean, five years in, five years of lifting. That would have been my second prep in 2006, and I finally won a novice class. That's where I was at after five years of lifting.
- [14:30]
A
Yeah, I think I competed. I say it's after about five years. You could argue it was like 10 years, but it was five years of serious lifting for me. I then stood on stage for the first time. And similarly, I think I came third last in a novice class. And then I got to like a. It was like the novice finals, which I didn't qualify for. It was just. That was what it was. And I think I came fourth in that. And it was like, yeah, I don't know if this is kind of the way I want to go, but, like, that's the. The thing is, I think the beauty of it is, or at least the message I want people to have. And if they follow you, you'll. They'll definitely get. This is probably. You thought, I imagine you maybe thought your genetics weren't all that great when you started. And now you probably have to say, actually, they're at least average. Because to get to the standard you're at, I think they'd have to be somewhere, like, at least average. But people looking at you, Pete, are probably like, you have like, elite genetics to have that physique. Oh, for sure. But it's like, whoa, do you know how much, like, time and effort you had to put in to get there? So I just think it's a good message to people who are listening who maybe are at a similar point after five years, like, well, I don't look that impressive. Like, if you look at the journey you've gone through, who knows where they might be able to go after another, like, 10, 20 years into the game.
- [15:50]
B
Yeah, well, I think a big part of it too is a lot of people, you know, don't take their off season seriously, you know, like, for most of us who don't have elite genetics. Like, you're going to need some long off seasons and there's going to be, you know, that workout on a random Tuesday afternoon where you're doing a pole day or something, you know what I mean? When you're a year and a half out from a show, like, what kind of effort are you putting in during that workout? You know, and then how consistent is your nutrition? Like, obviously, yes, you have more flexibility and leeway in the off season than you do when you're four weeks out from a show. But, you know, if, if you're not eating nutrient dense foods, having protein spread throughout the day, getting enough calories, you know, thing, things like that, you know, in the off season consistently, you know, like, I'll have people send me client applications and it'll be like their protein's like half or two thirds of where it probably should be. And that's what they've been doing in the off season when they want to diet for a show. And it's like, you know, you probably are leaving things on the table, you know, or hey, I haven't tracked anything all off season. And so they have to even like track food to tell me what they're doing. And then when they track food, they realize like, oh, yeah, my calories aren't all that higher. Yeah, I'm eating, you know, not very many carbs, a ton of fat, and my protein's lower than it should be or, you know, something like that. Right. And. And I think there's probably progress being left on the table. You know what I mean? If you're not taking the off season seriously too.
- [17:16]
A
Really well said. Yeah, I think it's a case of potentially people get into the gym and everyone grows despite what they do almost at times, and then they expect that same growth to occur, but it halves very quickly. And then they have to try even harder, put in more effort to get less results. And a lot of people don't want to do that. And so I think you're right. That's like why a lot of naturals don't get as big as they should because they don't realize how many things they have to get in a good place to continue to grow. But I imagine I'm going to put this on you, Pete, that you're like me, where a lot of the things that inherently make you a better natural bodybuilder are just good for how you feel. Health, wellbeing, all of that. Yeah. I mean, so it makes it easy to sell. Sell Yourself on.
- [18:02]
B
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Right. I mean, I'm getting in, into my 40s now. Right. Like I want to stay healthy so like I probably should eat mostly nutrient dense foods. Like I probably should, you know, should eat like fruits and vegetables and, and you know, spreading protein out throughout the day and you know, staying active, you know, getting walks and moving throughout the day, getting adequate sleep, you know, things like that. I probably should, even if I wasn't bodybuilding, those are things I should probably be doing just for health.
- [18:32]
A
And have you noticed as well, Pete, you've got better at mastering like the basics where you thought you knew what you were doing. I don't know, you thought you knew what failure was or you thought you knew how to engage a lot. And it's like, actually I learn how to redo that every few years.
- [18:47]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's always things that, you know, you're picking up in the gym just the longer you do it and this feels good or that feels good or that doesn't. And I think that probably helps with growth too, is just finding movements that you connect with. And you know, I've gotten a lot better with that over the years too, where I was proud, you know, someone especially early on in my lifting career that was guilty of, like, if it's written down, that's what I'm doing, you know, and I still in that way to some, you know, extent. Right. But like, if there's a movement that like it says in my plan and I'm like, well, I could do this other variation and I actually like actually feel it in my target muscle a little more or hey, that feels better today, joint wise, then that's what I'm doing and I'll just work to progress that, you know, and I feel like that can probably result in some more growth too.
- [19:35]
A
Yeah, you kind of have to get out of your own way at times. It's something that I think intermediate start battling with as progressions come slower and you can't force progression. You have to let it come to you a little bit. And once you've been training a decade, you just have to get used to being like, well, it took them several months to add a rep to know this lateral raise where. And you have to get used to. I don't know if you do this, Pete, but it sounds like you're driven like me, where I still have that want to beat the logbook mentality. And at times that means I have to revisit my technique because I'm like, I've beat the logbook. But my technique is slightly degraded here over the week, so I have to just reset it back.
- [20:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
- [20:16]
A
With the insane training then from Cliff, let's dive into some specifics of that. Obviously, volume was the thing you mentioned. It sounds like that was maybe the biggest change. Do you. Where roughly was your volume previous? And then like on average and then where's it. Where did it move to, on average, if you know that.
- [20:34]
B
Yeah, I mean, I would run. I've run all kinds of different things over the years with all kinds of different amounts of volume, you know, and so I. I probably always gravitated a little higher volume. I just always have tended to respond better. There are times where I've tried pulling back to three or four days a week and doing, you know, just a couple working set, you know, something lower volume. And I just never. Just. The visual is always better. Once I start training higher volume for a few weeks, it's like, oh, yeah. Like you can visually see in pictures like, this looks better. And. And so then I started, yeah, doing some of Cliff's workouts. And I mean, it's. It's a variety of different stuff. I mean, I was training five, six days a week. I mean, some of the things were more standard workouts where, you know, you're training. I don't know. I mean, even some of the shorter ones, I was still training like 25 set, you know, work. You know, working set workouts. There were days where we were a 40 working sets or, you know, 30, 40 or more working set. I mean, there was. There was a day during prep where like the workout I was running during the stretch of prep where he would give me like three or four movements and be like, here and the rep range is on. Like, it wouldn't come up. It was like a rotating plan. So it'd come up every couple weeks these days. And it'd be like three or four movements and it'd be like, do this many sets of this many reps, and it would rotate every time through. And one of the times was like 10 sets of 15. And the first move was squat. And I was just like, I mean, that's like an hour, you know what I mean, to just survive, like, survive that. Right. You know, and like I did a 10 sets of 10 per leg lunge. I remember in one of the programs, like, that was absolutely terrible. You know, there. There were some of the pro. Like one of the last plans he gave me had a bunch of like, pyramids and drop sets. So, like, it was like 20, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6. Pyramid up on a hack squat with a drop on the last set, and then go do another, like, five other leg movements after that, you know. So it was just stuff that, like, I've done some crazy stuff before. Like, I've. I ran. Some of my favorite workouts I've ran over the years are some of the John Meadows workouts, where you get some of the, you know, crazy high intensity and stuff. And there's was some of that type of stuff in Cliff's training, but, like, it was with more volume and more frequency. I mean, there were times, like, we'd run like, body parts, specific plans, and, you know, we drop things, you know, some things down to one time a week. And then like, I was training like back in Delts, like three or four times a week, I think back four times a week or something like that in one of the plans.
- [23:08]
A
So it sounds like, yeah, there's a lot of just change and variety. And I think something I have tried to get more comfortable with with my own coaching and also my own training is not being such a stickler for, like, things that on paper just look like they, like, really nicely makes sense. Like, oh, this moves here and that standardized like that. And whereas sometimes it's like, well, you kind of have to throw stuff at it to, like, especially when you're advanced and just see what sticks. Was there anything that you tried where it was like, that was just too much or that just didn't work or.
- [23:42]
B
Jim Gyles. There was one program that, like, in the, like, I. I was fine with pretty much all the crazy stuff. There was one program, though, that I. I did. We're gonna try to run it for, I think, like, 10 or 12 weeks or something like that. Right. And I. I think I made it through the first half of it, and it timed out well that I was going on vacation the next week and I was feeling pretty run down. And so, you know, it was like, okay, just take the week off, maybe do a couple light workouts while you're on vacation, and then come back, see if you can get through the second half of it and feel better. I get like a week into the second half of it, and I'm like, I feel just as bad. Like. And that. That one, though, like, I want to say the. The volume was just insane. I mean, I want to say, like, there was an upper body day that was like 45 or 50 sets. Like, it took like three hours to get through. Like, I just. I. That was the one plan where I was like, okay, I, and that was even in the off season when my food was high, I could not, that was like the one plan I couldn't recover from just, which I was just beat down. But I was, I, I have been surprised how much, I mean I've always known I can recover from a lot of volume. Like anytime anyone's given me or I've done higher volume programs, I do pretty well with them. Um, but yeah, we, we started finding some limits and I think, but you know, it, it, it's still a good amount of volume that I can recover from.
- [25:06]
A
It's like the training to failure piece. If you, you never trained to failure, you can't really use rest and reserve because you, you don't know what that really feels like.
- [25:14]
B
Yeah.
- [25:15]
A
To know your limits with volume, you kind of have to push to those lim.
- [25:20]
B
Oh absolutely. And, and so I think yeah, that part probably has helped me grow more too. Just the, over the years, like I look back to like what I thought was a hard leg day or taking a squat or set of like hack squats or you know, something like that to failure. When I was, you know, in my early 20s in college and I wasn't training nearly, you know, I, I where I can take it now just, I think mentally, you know, it's a mental thing more than anything. Right. Like I, I've mentally gotten tougher over the years. I think most people do as they keep lifting longer and realize like, hey, I can take this further, I could take this further and you really realize where you know how to power through some hard sets and where real failure is and what, and you know, even if you're a rep or too shy a real failure, like those are still really hard reps where your bar speed's slowing and it's a tough wrap.
- [26:12]
A
Hi guys. Steve here. Just wanted to take a moment of your time to remind you of our online coaching service. At Revive Stronger, we pride ourselves on providing personalized service that will take your physique and knowledge to the next level. If you're interested, check the description and sign up. Yeah, and I think that probably just for those listening that are like, oh, I'm going to try really high volumes, I think that background for you where you knew how to push sets appropriately hard was, was important because the issue with a lot of people that go high volume is and a lot of critiques people have of any high volume studies or what have you is oh, people don't know how to train to failure. They just leave loads of reps in reserve. And that's a fair critique because you don't want to pull so hard on the volume lever that suddenly you're not training close to failure and therefore the overall stimulus that you're generating for growth is not there. So I'm guessing all your sets were very close. If not, I wouldn't say they were
- [27:05]
B
all to failure where the bar is falling on me or something like that, but thank God, sometimes two failure. There'd be sets where like, you know, we would hit failure and then hit partials after or hit failure and do a drop set or you know, stuff like that. You know, like on a leg extension or hamstring curl or something where it's safe to do that. I mean, we weren't. Well, I shouldn't say that. There, there. I have drop setted a barbell squat in his plan. That was pretty awful. But usually, usually not. Usually we save, you know, those type of things for like, you know, leg extension, ham curl, hack, squat, leg press, you know, things that are safer to do that. But ironically, like, post show right now, since I'm, you know, in a recovery period, like, he's actually got me doing low volume, like I'm training for me, and he was pretty low volume, low frequency, like, just recovering from prep. So.
- [28:02]
A
Yeah, and in prep then, it sounded like you were still pushing pretty high volumes. You didn't bring those down or they. Were they down from the off season? No. Okay.
- [28:13]
B
No, no, it was pretty much, yeah. I mean, I, I had, I was doing most of my workouts, I think my. During prep, like during the final phase of prep, like the last few months, we were doing like a, like a back, chest, leg, shoulders, arms off. We go through that a couple times. And then there'd be a couple of those crazy days where it'd be like, here are three or four movements, do whatever rep, range. And then we'd repeat back through, you know, back, chest, leg, shoulder, you know, a couple arms off a couple times. And yeah, I think most of the back chest days were 30 sets ish, you know what I mean? Or better. The legs were 25ish, probably, or better. And the. Some of those shoulder arm days were like 35 plus sets. And then, yeah, some of those crazy special days. God, those were rough. Like, I mean, the one day it was like 10 by 10 by 10 on, like, I remember, I remember I was probably, oh, three, four weeks out for my first show of the year. And one of the, one of those days, like special days came up and it was like 10 by 10 squat, 10 by 10 dumbbell bench, 10 by 10 landmine row. I think it, like, I was so deep in prep and so dead, it took me like three hours or more to get through it. I, I, and I somehow squatted 275 for, I think I got 10 by 10 or very close to it, but it was like an hour and a half because I just like, was dead between sets because I was, it was three, four weeks out, like, right before we started reversing. So it was like the worst of my prep. And yeah, so, I mean, there were some mental battles, you know what I mean, to fight through, to get through, through some of that stuff. But I mean, I saw what I was looking like and I knew it was paying off. And so I, you know, I, I, and, and like, my strength wasn't drop, like, my strength drops during prep. And I'm not, you know, I don't, I'm not someone who hits. There are people who are like, oh, I hit prs at the end of I prep. I don't. But like, it didn't. I was definitely the strongest in the low 160s, upper 150s that I ever have been, you know, at that weight. Like, I, I held strength better, which I always thought was crazy as I was, you know what I mean? Like, I was doing all this crazy volume and whatnot, and I was holding strength, like, better than, you know, than I ever had. Getting that lean.
- [30:39]
A
That was going to be my, like, a question was going to be, how was your strength? Because I guess often people think, hey, you're in a calorie deficit, your recoverability is down, therefore your fatigue is higher. So you're going to have to probably bring volume down. Otherwise, like, you're just gonna have this wall of fatigue that's gonna harm your performance. But it sounds like it helped maintain it.
- [30:58]
B
And yeah, I, I think the longer I do this, I think some of that's true, right? Like, I think some of that's probably true. You're not gonna be recovering from, you know, as great probably when you're super lean. But I still feel like a lot of, a lot of bodybuilding, the more and more I do it, the more I'm like, man, a lot of this is just mental, like, psychological, like what you believe, right? Because if you work with someone, like working with clients, right, the, the clients that think that prep's going to be terrible, like, they're two weeks into prep, their food's not low, they're not super lean yet, they haven't Been dieting for very long and their prep is already terrible. They're telling you how awfully miserable they feel. And you know, and I like, I think it's self fulfilling, right. The people who think, oh, I can't lose, you know, I can't stay consistent to lose, well then they're not going to stay consistent to, you know, lose or hey, I'm going to drop a bunch of strength, you know, and, and I think I, I posted about this in 2023. I did this also. But this prep too, I really tried to stay covered up in the gym. Like I, I, it, I mean partially because I don't want everyone bothering me about how lean I'm getting or whatever. But, or shows or you know, people knowing I'm dieting for shows or whatever. Right. Like I just want to do my thing. But part of it too is I really think there's benefit at least for me not seeing how lean I am because then I just go train. It's me and a baggie sweatpants and a hoodie and I just go train. I don't go see, I don't see how I'm, hey, I'm, look how lean I am. I should be weaker now or I should be more tired now if I don't see it, you know what I mean? I'm not having those thoughts. And like I said, I wish I took more psychology classes in school because I really do think that plays a big, a really big role in all of this. Like what you think, you know, what you think it's going to be or what you expect then kind of manifests itself.
- [32:52]
A
Yeah, a lot of times I know, I, I completely agree. I think you see it enough in like some placebo studies where they give people, they tell someone like this pill is a steroid and then they gain way more strength than you'd expect and you tell them, oh, it was a, just, just a placebo pill and then they lose it all. It's like, oh, so if you expect to lose strength or you expect I bad genetics or whatever it is, then I think what often happens, I don't think it's necessarily something special or magical that's going on. I just think it's. If you think you have good genetics, you'll probably try harder. Yeah, if you think you have bad genetics, you probably give up. And then if you put in more effort, generally you get more results. Then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy in that sense, a positive feedback loop. And yeah, I think there must be something too covering up because a lot of bodybuilders do it. And I think there's probably more than just, I don't know, people are like, oh, they're doing it because it's like for the shock factor. It's like there's probably more to it. Like you said that psychology I think is probably key and just people find benefit from. Yeah. Covering up. So I probably need to do that more. In prep at least you get really cold.
- [33:55]
B
So generally it was, it was so cold here. Like we had, we hit minus 30 Fahrenheit for an air temperature here this winter for the first time in like seven years or something. And that was when I was like, I was probably two and a half months out of my show. First show of the year. I remember I did an entire workout wearing two hoodies, like entire leg day doing two hoodies. I was so cold that day that I was wearing a T shirt, a long sleeve T shirt and two hoodies. I did a full leg day and I like, I was so cold that I, I wasn't really sweating. Like, you know what I mean?
- [34:30]
A
Like.
- [34:30]
B
Cause you're so lean and food blow
- [34:33]
A
and yeah, the body's just like, no, we can't afford to spend energy, make you warm so we've got to hold
- [34:39]
B
on to everything we can. Like it was that minus 30 air temper. Windshields were like minus 50, minus 60. Yeah. Like I just remember, I remember that I was squatting and I'm like, I'm like, okay, how can I maneuver these two hoods out of the way so that the bar can sit on my back where I want it?
- [34:56]
A
So we talked about volume and clearly pushed that beyond where it's been previously. And you could deal with more than you thought. Maybe you even could. Yeah. Exercise selection wise, it sounds like there's a lot of big compound lifts in there because I think a lot of the time people think, oh, if these high volumes are happening, especially if you're training hard like you mentioned, you absolutely were. People think, oh, it's got to be a lot of like isolation work and like fluff stuff. But was it mostly just big compound lifts in the plan?
- [35:23]
B
Both? Yeah, I mean they're big. There was, there was compound lifts and isolation lifts. I mean, you know, like a leg day might have been like, like I think one of my leg days during prep was something like, I think we did like hack squat, rdl, leg press, like a lunge or a split squat extension curl, adductor calf or something like that. So I mean, there, there. Yes, there was extension curls, adductors, calves in there, but I was still hitting multiple compound movements.
- [35:53]
A
It wasn't disproportionately distributed towards those isolation movements.
- [35:57]
B
No, no, no, not, not necessarily. I mean I, I, you know, no different than chest, right. Like I was doing heavy dumbbell pressing or Smith inclines or something like that. But then, you know, we do seated cable flies also and like rep ranges too. I mean in, in a lot of Cliff's plans, like rep range is very like I did more, I, I, I, it's been years since I've probably done this much like heavy four to six. Like I've done more four to six, six days. Like you know, eight. Like my joints held up because there was also a lot of like 20 and 30 rep stuff, you know, and anywhere in between. I want to say at one point I had sets of 40, if I remember right, in one of my plans on a couple movements, you know, like just way beyond anything I've ever even attempted. Um, and so, yeah, I mean I think it just the whole gamut of rep ranges and, and things and yeah, I even on something like some of these isolation movements, I've, it's, I don't know that I've ever, or at least not for a long time consistently done like six to eight on like a leg extension or a hamstring curl. You know what I, yeah, like an isolation movement or side laterals for like eights. You know, like usually I'm doing higher rep. Like, and so I think some of that incorporating some of that along with the higher, you know, probably also helped.
- [37:18]
A
Yeah, I think it's, it's great to try think because in my head I'm the same way. I'm like, oh, isolation movements, generally 10, 10 plus reps, compound lifts, not much over 15.
- [37:28]
B
Yeah.
- [37:29]
A
But then maybe now and then you do this psycho thing and do 15 plus reps on a squat or something. And like you said, the heavy leg extensions, it's like if I guess it comes back to like basic things like give the body something new to have to adapt to. In a sense, maybe that's why where my head goes.
- [37:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, potentially. And yeah, I mean I've always been a fan of training with a variety of rep ranges. But yeah, usually I would do the compounds heavier, the isolations higher. And I would say with, with his plans I've done all of them heavier and all of them lighter and anywhere in, in between. The one like you said, with squats, there was a plan where I did 10 sets of 20 of leg press. That was pretty bad.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah. 10 sets of 20, you say?
- [38:15]
B
Yeah, that was another one where that was just tear. I mean. Yeah, yeah. If I remember right, though, like, that particular day, I think it was just isolation, like three or four isolation movements for a few sets after that. But I mean, the 10 sets of 20 took, like, well over an hour to survive that.
- [38:33]
A
Do you have to. With that, do you keep the same load? And therefore, it's like leaving lots of. In the tank initially. Well, quite a few in the tank initially. And then, yeah, pushing most of the.
- [38:42]
B
Those plans were supposed to be. Yeah, like a few reps. Some failure to begin with. And then by the end, you know, it's. It's awful. Right?
- [38:53]
A
Imagine the rest periods towards the end get longer.
- [38:56]
B
By the end, too. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. At first it's like, oh, that set was like 4 or 5 reps sub failure. I can go again in a couple minutes. And then by the end, you're grinding the last reps out and you dive especially like, like that 10 by 10 per leg lunge. I mean, I, you know, by the end of that, like, it's like, man, I need like eight minutes to just like, mentally get up to be able to do this again, you know? And like I said, I don't know that part of me really enjoys, like, the, in the gym, like, the, the being pushed out of my comfort zone and, and doing some crazy stuff and like, mentally having to, you know, push through and get through. Because, I mean, a lot of times with some of the. When you do, like, I remember, like, when I ran some of the John Meadows plans too, and some of the crazy stuff you'd have in there. I, it was like, okay, I gotta get, like, you know, mentally get up for each set and like, let's do this and get through it. It's gonna be terrible, but let's do it. Like, I don't know. I, I, that's the part of training I really enjoy.
- [39:53]
A
Yeah.
- [39:54]
B
Yeah.
- [39:55]
A
The, the Mac. I always struggle to say this word. It's like bodybuilders hate to look like pain. They, I mean, love pain. Sorry, that's like contest prep. We love that side of just like, when it hurts when you're hung well, not hurts when it's like you're feeling your legs heavy and you're hungry. It's like, oh, like, I'm putting myself through this and this is what a privilege it is to feel this sucky and choose to do it, in a sense.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah, well. And I, I know my mentality Always too. When it comes to like competing, getting on stages, there can be guys who are better bodybuilders and me, better genetics, more muscle, been doing this longer, whatever. But like, if they're going to beat me, it's because, yeah, they're, they're better than me. They're not going to beat me because they're working harder than me. You know, like I, I can live with someone beating me because they're a better bodybuilder. Like, yeah, but if I don't, I, if I don't put everything I can into it and someone else does and that's why they beat me like that. I can't live with that one. Like that, that, that's on me, like, you know, and so that, that's how I always view, you know, all of this. Right. You know, it's, and so, you know, I just trying to make sure that like I'm not getting outworked by somebody.
- [41:04]
A
Yeah, no, I completely agree and I think we've touched on it as well. Like we said, what allowed you part, like what made these higher volumes beneficial was the fact you already had that skill set of intensity in place. But also as you mentioned, some things that people get complacent on is that kind of recovery piece outside of the gym. So I'm imagining for you, Pete. You take care of your sleep, like you said, your nutrition, like nutrient time, you plenty, plenty of carbohydrates in the diet, stuff like that. I guess you're like, it's a big deal to you.
- [41:36]
B
Yeah, no, I would, I would say, yeah, I take care of a lot of that. Right. Like I, you know, like sleep. It's funny because like my clients are like, do you, do you ever sleep? Because like, I'll get back to them at like 4:30 or 5:00 clock in the morning, you know, and be at my computer, you know, 4 or 5am right during the week and stuff. And, and, and part of it is like, I want clients to send updates in the morning because if we have a timeline, like we want to, you know, they're close to a show, we need to change things right away that day and not lose that day because they're checking in late. Right. And so, but, and so like, yeah, I'm up early, but in order to be up by 4 or 5am Every morning, I go to bed at like 8 or 8:30 every night. So I'm still getting eight hours of sleep, nine hours of sleep a night, you know, So I get, you know what I mean? I Get a lot of sleep and then. Yeah. You know, nutrient dense foods. Like, I try to have a lot of variety in, like, fruits, vegetables. You know, I think I was just looking at that this week as my food is going up, and I was like, man, I did. There was one day I was like, I did pretty good today. I had four different types of fruit and like five different types of vegetables. Like I said, you know, like, like I'm, I'm making some effort, you know, on the health piece, you know, here. And.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah.
- [42:45]
B
And, and have spreading food out throughout the day. And like during prep, you'd say carb, you know, timing of carbs. And Yeah, I, I, during the worst of prep, I mean, the only, outside of fruit and vegetable carbs, you know, my carbs were low. So the only. Well, or at least for me, low. The only meals I really had carbs is I would have, like, oatmeal or something like that before my workout, and I would have potatoes after my workout. And if I had a few carbs left at the end of the night, I might have a rice cake or two. But other than that, it was fruits and vegetables and I was centering, yeah. My carbs around my workouts. Yeah.
- [43:17]
A
No, I, I'm, I just think it's a piece that people forget. I think they see maybe yourself making these great gains as quite advanced, natural. But then they don't have those pieces in place. And then they try these higher volumes. They're like, oh, man, it just doesn't work. It's like, it's not that it doesn't work. It's your setup or what have you haven't allowed for recoverability that would be required here. And I think another piece you really touched on, and a big reason why a lot of people underestimate the amount of volume they can recover from is they just haven't got the psychology there. They already look at a workout that Cliff has written and they're like, I can't do that. I just can't do it. So I think that sometimes what harms people is they're already counting themselves out. Like you said, as soon as someone says I can't, it's like, well, you're not going to be able to if you already think going in you won't be able to do it.
- [44:05]
B
Well, and it's like that with even, even someone, if it's someone who makes great progress with less volume, like, because there are people who train with lower volumes and make significant progress. Right. But there's still that mental piece of okay, I'm training with a low volume. I gotta beat the log book. Here's this heavy deadlift. You know, it's another £5, £10 over what I did last week. Like believe if you believe. If you don't think you can do it, then you're not gonna get that. You know what I mean? Progression, you know. And, and so I think, yeah, the, the psych psychological part, right, like seeing yourself like the what the mental imagery or whatever, you know, I don't know what it's specifically called where you're thinking through it ahead of time and seeing yourself doing it and believing you can do it. You know, goes that visualization.
- [44:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And one, obviously we mentioned you could kind of see it in the physique that you'd grown this amount, this new tissue. But I think you also mentioned you're the strongest you ever got as well. Which I always think strength is a great kind of proxy for naturals to gauge that they've grown new muscle tissue. Were there any lifts where you hit like particular PRs that kind of spring to mind?
- [45:11]
B
Oh, I mean my RDL has skyrocketed in the last like five years. Yeah, that and I mean you can see that on the back side of my body. Right. You know, I like rdls. Lunges are another one. I can like those have skyrocketed. Um, but even like, I mean I remember like peak off season, you know, pressing like 120 pound dumbbells for like six and and you know, I, even when I, you know, and my chest is a, always been a stronger body part, you know, and even that was like a rep higher than I ever believe I had gotten before. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and that's for a stronger body part that we really didn't put a ton in, you know, never really put a ton of emphasis on. But yeah, like landmine rows with good form and using like 25s for a longer range of motion. Like I, I really got strong at those, you know, just, just a number of different movements where I'm just like the RDLS is the one that sticks out. That's probably one of the things that progressed the most in the last five to 10 years. And that's probably a big part of the reason why the backside of my body is. Yeah, and it's, it's still, like I said, my back is still probably my worst body part. But you know, the backside of my body and my hamstrings are one of my best and the Backside's improved a lot. So yeah, I think something like that.
- [46:30]
A
Yeah, I think that's it just you, you saw the visual changes but also when you can't always see the visual changes in the like short medium term. But these strength progressions are a really good indicator that things are going in the right direction, which is a good take home. Do you ever. Obviously I sometimes get caught up in the logbook. Obviously it sounds like you sometimes do as well. And I think part of that is like I don't know if that's a problem or it's just like hey, it's part of the process. You to have this progressive like chase the logbook mindset helps things overall is just managing it.
- [47:04]
B
Yeah, I think it's important. I mean I think it's just you have to do it intelligently. Right. Like yes. You know, I try to make sure it's progression with good form. You know, like if my form's not good, then it really doesn't matter because if your form's not good, usually like you're taking tension off the muscle you're trying to hit anyway and putting it somewhere else, you know and. But yeah, so I think progression with good form and then also just yeah, I mean paying attention to how things feel, you know, like joint wise and whatnot, you know and, and just how does it. Some days it's there, some days it's not. I mean, you know, it might be that hey I got six reps. Six reps. Maybe the next week it's five reps but then I got seven, you know, on that same set and you know, maybe then I'm getting seven consistently and you know, like it. And so it isn't always up but like generally up over time is what you're looking for.
- [47:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think that patience of just recognizing even a matching of performance is still providing the muscle. A reason to have to adapt and grow is just yeah that, that hitting the PR so long as technique is good is. Then it's like oh, now you've grown the muscle to be able to earn that progression. And that's slow when you're decades in.
- [48:17]
B
Yeah, I was going to say too with like the programs from Cliff, like some of the programs would like drastically differ program to program but like we would run the same thing for 10, 14, 16 weeks, you know what I mean? And get the progression we can out of it and then move to something different. And even though it might have been drastically different, like we would stick with, you know what I mean? For, for long Enough to progress. And so I think that part of it's important too, you know, that I think, you know, doing the same thing over and over and being able to try to push for that progression or see that progression, I think is important also.
- [48:53]
A
Yeah, not program hopping, especially for those newer lifters where they just have to relearn and exercise. Whereas for you it's like, well, it's a hip hinge. It's a hip hinge type of thing. Like it's a row. It's a row. Like there's only so much learning that needs to go on for someone who has such a number of years under their belt. So. Yeah, really good point. Was there ever a time where you threw the logbook out and you just like, were like, hey, I'm just going to go a bit intuitive or by feeling? Yeah.
- [49:18]
B
Over the years, there's definitely been times I've, I've done that, you know, I, I made. When was that? I think even coming out of my last contest season, you know, 2023, I, I spent probably a good part of that fall just doing a, I think I was doing a five or six day bro split, just going in and training and making it fun again. And I. Problem is I end up running myself into the ground when I do that. Because I will just go and go and go. You know what I mean? Like, you probably see this, I see this with like some of my best clients. Right? Like some of my most successful best clients. You know, people oftentimes ask me, well, how do you. People who don't get this will ask me, like, how do you motivate your clients when you're not there with them? And I'm always like, you don't understand. These people don't need motivation. I am usually the one holding them back for a lot of the, you know, my like elite competitors that they would just full steam ahead and run themselves into the ground. And I mean, that's me, right? Like I, I will just charge full speed ahead. Whatever you need me to do, I'll do it. And so I think, you know, I think that that's a big part of it too.
- [50:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. Having that, that's where the kind of beat the logbook mentality I think can be so helpful. Because if you ever encourage someone to try and progress or to push themselves, I think that's much harder to coach than just being like, nah, let's pull you back here. Like that's much easier thing to do. And there's a reason why I think those people see Such good results. One of the things you. Sorry, I just want to touch on. One of the things you mentioned, Pete, in terms of your off season was the fact you only you didn't diet very often. You're in a surplus for a really, really long period of time at a body composition that was very productive for growth. I'm assuming that means a very small surplus, is that right?
- [51:09]
B
Yeah.
- [51:10]
A
And how did you find that? Is that, was that new for you to have a smaller surplus and run it for longer or has that always been your approach?
- [51:17]
B
No, I mean, that's generally what I've done, especially like over the last decade or I mean I've worked with Cliff on the nutrition side of things since like 2014. So I mean like season at all. So I mean, usually that's the approach. I mean, if I remember right, last off season we, we got me up till, you know, I competed in the, you know, 150s. We got me up to 170. Oh, probably within six weeks or so, six, eight weeks. Because once I start getting into the 170s, I can at least live and feel good. It's not a place where I'm progressing or like hitting PRs or you know, like I, I still don't have a lot of leeway with food. Like if I'm off, something's off, the weight just sticks and you know, like it, it takes some work to stay there. But I remember I was probably, I was at a seminar probably four months post show and I was nearing 180 pounds and like, that's where like things clicked and I was like, man, my strength's really pretty good again. And, and I was up, you know, close to 20 at that point or you know, from stage and. But yeah, then from there it was very slow upward drift. I think I stayed out of a deficit for probably a year or more after my show, you know, and just let it creep up to like 35 over stage. We cut for eight, 10 weeks, got me back down to the low one eight, you know, low 180s and then let it creep up again for another probably close to a year into the low, low mid-190s, and then started pulling back and starting prep. So yeah, I think it just staying in that slight surplus and eating and I think that's a place a lot of people struggle too. Like people will tell me, oh, I struggle to gain weight and they'll give me like the food they're eating and I'm like, I'm a 40 year old guy with a desk job. And I eat more than that, you know what I mean? In my off season, like, you know, and it's some 20 year old telling me that they can't possibly eat more, you know, and yeah, yeah, I mean it's I think pushing food, you know what I mean? And really eating and realizing like, hey, you, you know, it's bodybuilding, right? You got to build muscle to like do this. It isn't just a starve yourself dieting contest.
- [53:24]
A
Yeah, I think that's so well said. I, I see it two ways for the people that don't seem to get the best from their off seasons is they're either too extreme about staying too lean and not putting themselves in a surplus, or they go the other way. They like over recover from post show and then they push their body fat so high and then they're just in a pretty unproductive place to diet or to really push a surplus. It's like you did a, you've got into a really nice position where it's like you recover nicely from prep and then you hang around in this band of productive body fat that's not too far from stage where you feel your best. Very good food. You can hit PRs, but you have a slow step. You don't kind of, you can't. I always say you can't force feed muscle growth. I'd love if you could. It's similar to like trying to force like progress in the gym. Right. You can't, but like, you just have to be patient.
- [54:12]
B
Yeah. I was gonna say when I was younger, I sure tried. My first show, I was a hundred, I was 145 pounds at my first show and I was told this was 2004. Right. So we didn't have all the information online. And so like I was told by all the judges, oh, you just need to eat, eat clean, eat a lot, get big. And so I spent the next two years after my first show just, I mean I was eating 54, 56, 100 calories, just force feeding, you know, quote unquote clean food, going through tub after tub of oatmeal and cases of tuna and whatnot when I was in college and, and I got up to 210. I went from 145 to 210 in two years. It was not a pretty 210. So then I had to diet. That was the first year I worked with Lane was 2006. And I dieted from 210, I think by the last show, like seven months in, I was down to like 156. It was the worst prep ever. The first show I was like low 160s and then I did another show a month later and I was like mid-150s, but I went from 210, like you know, I, I got, I netted what like £10 on my stage weight? I didn't, but I, I was still young. That was years, like 3 to 5 of lifting and I was in my like late teens, early 20s. Like I didn't need to gain 50, 55, 60, 65 pounds. Net 10 of that on my stage weight.
- [55:37]
A
Yeah, I, I think a lot of, I don't know, I don't know, I think it's such a thing now because I think unfortunately social media can be great as an educational tool. But also if I was, I don't know, I think of my 15 year old self seeing social media now and all these shredded physiques. I don't know if I'd have pushed my body weight up like I, I once did too far. It was similar to you. I was just like clean food, that means clean weight. And I'll yeah, if I just eat all the right things. I can't gain fat because these aren't fattening foods. And I ended up not quite as far as what you did, but I certainly gained a lot of body fat in a short period of time. A good amount of muscle with it and then over the years you refine it I think. And like you said, like you get to a body weight where you feel good, you can perform well in the gym. The gym, the training is the kind of match, the lights, the fire for muscle gain. Nutrition is just permissive of that and just like live in this really productive zone for as long as you can. And I think that that is just such a winning formula for people. But it takes a bit of time. And one thing I noticed for yourself is because, I don't know, I hear you don't always know what people are doing with their nutrition long term off season. Most people when they prep they follow either like a meal plan or they follow kind of macros. Very few people I think at least that I hear about do it kind of mindfully or intuitively. But for your off season I think you're a tracker, right? You don't go into just like a mind fleeting approach so much.
- [56:59]
B
Yeah, no, I still track food year round. It. I, I mean I've done the it. I don't feel like it hinders me really at all. I've, I'VE done this for, you know, I've been lifting 25 years now and I mean really probably tracking my food. 23, 24, you know, of those years, you know, probably 24 to 24 of those years now. So I, yeah, I mean I can kind of ballpark what I need in a meal or if I eat something out, you know, I know kind of in the off season, like I know, okay this about this. So, you know, just, you know, I just kind of make the rest up the end of the day and make it work.
- [57:38]
A
I, I'm the same way. Like I, I like having the numbers. It almost provides me more, less stress and more freedom. And especially during the off season when often I find people that maybe don't track or they have a kind of restrictive diet and not like an inclusive diet. A meal out like you just mentioned isn't something that they modify what they eat and they fit it within the macros and the numbers they just treat as a cheat meal or an off plan meal and then suddenly that's where they gain lots of unwanted and unnecessary weight.
- [58:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think even just, just the conscious effort of hey, I'm having this meal out later that's higher calorie, I'm probably gonna keep earlier in my day like more protein, fruits, vegetables and keep the calories a little bit lower, you know, and, and then as long as I do something not crazy at the meal out, like I'm probably gonna be just fine. And, and as long as you're at like a body composition that's sustainable, any little uptick from something like that will stabilize back out after a couple days back on track. I always find though, when people try to stay too lean, you, you don't see that typically stabilize back out when they get back on track. It just kind of sticks. But if you're at a reasonable off season body composition, like your body kind of gives you a little more leeway, I feel like too, yeah, the body's
- [58:51]
A
like, hey, if you're too lean and you give it more than it, you intend to, it's like, it's like thank you, I'm going to hold on to that.
- [58:58]
B
Yeah.
- [58:59]
A
Whereas once you're already in a healthy range, it's like, well, I'll just, I don't know, might upregulate your knee or it kind of, it doesn't hold on the same way. I, I totally, that, that makes so much sense I think. There's been so many great take homes here for the listeners. Pete. If you were to look Back over the years, would you have introduced higher volumes sooner? Would you have given Cliff the reins to your training sooner? Are you quite happy with like how things have gone?
- [59:25]
B
Yeah, I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe I would have, I would say just, just because I probably could have made this progress sooner. But I think doing all the different stuff I've done over the years, like you name it, I've probably done it. And so I think like that has benefited me, right? Like I've run stuff like I ran max OT back in the day. I've run like dog crap. I've done like the Arnold high volume stuff. I've. You know what I mean? Like, you name it, I've done powerlifting stuff. I've run Westside, I've DUP powerlifting plans where I'm squatting three times a week. So I, I've done a little bit of, you know, a little bit of everything over the years. And so I, I think like when it comes to me as like a coach and working with clients, I feel like having done so many different things over the years really helps me, you know, make me be a better, better coach. You know, it's no, no different than like the, hey, I've been lifting 25 years. Like when a client says, oh, I tweaked this, I can pretty much say, yeah, this probably hurts, this probably doesn't. Because I've also probably tweaked that at some point in the last 25 years, you know, So I think it's. I would say yes and no. Like, I mean, it'd been nice to make this, you know, some of this progress sooner. But I mean, I'm excited to see what happens this off season, you know, coming out of these shows and you know, like I said, we're training lower volume. I'm only, while we're recording this right now, I'm not even two weeks post show. And so we're still training. I'm training hard again, but pretty low volume comparatively, with fairly high food and just trying to recover at this point.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that's a good message as well. Where obviously you mentioned all the kind of basic fundamentals, like we said, with the nutritional piece, body composition piece, psychology, then the training piece in terms of making sure we've got the fundamentals technique, training hard, looking to progress things over time and then you've just not been afraid to experiment either. You haven't kind of put yourself in a box and that's allowed you to learn and experience and then refine and get Better. So that's awesome. And I definitely wanted to give time to this because like you said, two weeks post show, you've just had an awesome season. I don't think your season, from what I understand, couldn't have gone any better. You had three shows and won everything that you entered. Right?
- [61:44]
B
But run the listeners through it. I was, as I tell. As you know, as I tell people, I was fortunate nobody better showed up at any of my three shows.
- [61:51]
A
You know, you can always say that, right?
- [61:54]
B
You know, like. Cause but that's. That's true, right? Like, better in the eyes of the judges that day. Because part of winning a show is. Is you gotta be good. But part of winning a show is pure luck, right? Like, I think about, like, I had a client last fall who phenomenal physique. First year he competed and in classic physique did three shows. Two of them were huge shows with like three and four open classes. One is open class at all three of those shows was in the overall at all of those shows, and it was a split decision. And he didn't win in all of those shows. Guy is, if he and I were next to each other on stage and he just got a little leaner and did bodybuilding next to me, I wouldn't stand a chance, you know? You know what I mean? Like, but he just happened to show up at shows where the, you know, in classic, where, like the overall, there's just one person at each of those shows in the eyes of the judges, not all the judges, because he had some firsts in the overall at all of those shows, but it just, you know, so there's a luck component, right? Like, that just is really unfortunate luck, you know, and there's always someone better out there. It's just whether or not they show up that day or what look, the judges want to see. I mean, I think like, my second show this year was a pro show in Kentucky. And in the. And I didn't they have a master's pro class and an open pro class. And in open pro, there was a guy who had won a, a pro show a few weeks earlier in my class, and he's bigger than me. And I was looking at the pictures after prejudging, I'm like, I don't know. I'm. I'm leaner, he's bigger. Like, I, I don't know which way they're going with this one, you know, and, and, and fortunately went my way, but a different panel of judges and it, it may not have.
- [63:37]
A
Yeah, it, it's so true. And having judged. I've judged several years now for the WNBF UK shows, and I just. I know it from talking to other judges. And also when we're doing, like, the overalls and you're picking your, like, first and second or what have you, like, it can be literally a point between some. And I've had it on my own judging card. I'm like, I have three people tied for first place, and now I've got to just work out my. Like, who do I give it to? The leaner guy, the bigger guy. Like, it's. It's a personal preference thing. And subjectivity to some extent as well.
- [64:09]
B
Yeah, well. And oftentimes with judging, too, like, the middle part of a big class is the hardest part to judge, especially if you get, like a big bikini class. Because the differences in bikini, you know, oftentimes aren't as large. Right. Because you can be too big, you can be too lean, and you get a class of like 12 or 14. Usually you can pick out who the top, like, three are. Usually there's, you know, four or five, you know, three, four at the bottom. And then you're looking in a class like 16, that, like, 4 through 12 range. It's like, man, the difference here is so, you know, small, you know, And I've seen shows where they spend forever on the middle of the class because the difference, you know, you got your top few, you got your bottom few, and then the middle is just so close.
- [64:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, you're picking it apart. And it's. In the uk we have a really good bodybuilding scene as well. So sometimes I'm just like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is. This is hard. And sometimes I look at the. The middleweights, the amateurs, and I'm like, man, I don't know if I'd win this class. And I'm going to be the pro here, sat down here. These are some really good competitors. So, yeah, it's. It definitely, like you said, it's lucky, but also at the same time, there can be unlucky times. So if you don't get the placings like your client, he is just misfortune. And sometimes luck will be on your side, sometimes it won't. And it's just remembering that obviously you're an NGA pro now, an OCB Pro this season.
- [65:26]
B
Do you have any other. I had a IPE Pro card, too, which is now wmbf, because they got. Okay, they merged. So, yeah, I have wmbf, OCB and NGA currently.
- [65:38]
A
So Nice. Do you? Because I do. You have. When was the last time you did a WMBF show? Because you don't.
- [65:45]
B
I haven't, I've done no ip, you know, I haven't since they merged, you know, just didn't work. They, they don't have a ton of shows in my part of the country or early in the year because I, I needed to get done competing. My, My wife is competing at Masters nationals and powerlifting this month. And then, and then I, I have a lot of clients on stage this summer and a lot of show travel. And so I knew, like, I gotta get this done as early in the year as possible. So, like, what, what shows can I do with master's pro classes? I found a couple of those, you know, and then it was like, okay, well, there's, there's an OCV show in Minnesota. I have a lot of family friends in that area. And so, yeah, so that was pretty fun. I mean, it was like I was able to have a lot of people there because normally I'm traveling to wherever the show is. So I was, you know, so. But yeah, I mean, I just needed to get done, so I did, you know, I found shows that fit that and traveled to them.
- [66:42]
A
Yeah, it's something I've noticed more and more is coaches who are competitors who have like a lot of clients that step on stage. Obviously the busy time of year typically is the end of the year, so they try and compete in the first half of the year and then there's just not as many shows unfortunately at that time. So, yeah, just, you know, it's unfortunate it didn't fall for you in that way, but, but I mean, incredible. You won your pro card.
- [67:06]
B
Yeah, I mean, the show where I, where I got my OCV pro card, I mean that, that show was big though. They had about 130 competitors. Bodybuilding was the largest division in the show. More bodybuilders than classic or bikini.
- [67:17]
A
Oh, nice.
- [67:18]
B
And it was really cool. And so like I was in an open class of nine and there were multiple open classes. Like, it was, it was cool. And then, and there was, I mean, there were six of us in Masters, you know, and so like, it was just cool to see a show of that size. And that'll probably be, other than the OCB Viking, probably the biggest show in like the Midwest, all drug tested all year. I mean, usually it's the second biggest, you know, the natural Minnesota show I did is usually the, it's in the biggest one in the spring. Second biggest in this part of the country. And then the Viking is massive. Like the OCD Viking had like 180 competitors last year. It's two days now. This year, yeah, they had over 60 pros, over 120amateurs.
- [68:00]
A
Wow.
- [68:01]
B
Yeah, it was nuts. That show has gotten insanely huge. It's super competitive. It's usually, usually two to four weeks before the Yorton, so people fly in and like really good pros will fly in and do that show. I like when you're talking overalls where you feel like you couldn't place the bodybuilding amateur overall last year they had three open classes of bodybuilding and there were like eight, nine guys in all of, like, it was big classes. And the three guys in the overall, I was, I remember sitting in the crowd because my client won the amateur overall there last year. And I remember sitting in the crowd watching the overall and being like, man, I couldn't beat any of these three. Like, this is, this is nuts. Like, this is an amateur overall wouldn't touch any of them. This is awesome.
- [68:50]
A
That's how it, that's how it goes, right? And that's what you want. You want. I've had, unfortunately, clients at shows where there's like three in their class or something. It's always, or God forbid they're the only one. It's like, well, that's so disappointing. So I love these big shows where. Oh yeah, especially in bodybuilding.
- [69:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, it was great like that. The same show where I won my pro card, I had three clients compete later in the day, which was cool. You know, that's not the first time that there's probably been four or five times over the years. Now I've had clients compete at the same show I have, but the ones I had later in the day was cool. At the end of the day in Bikini, there were two open classes of like 9ish per class and I had a client in each. They both won the class and they were in the overall against each other at the end of the day. So that was, that was a good way to wrap up the day. At the end, you know, end of
- [69:35]
A
the night, I bet. Pete, this has been fantastic. I've loved kind of reviewing what's got you to have such a successful season over the years. Obviously it's not just this. Obviously there's been a recent growth spurt, but the fact you've stuck to the game for so long and grown so much muscle over the years has allowed you to be such a high level and competitive pro. This might Be a tough question, but it's going to be my final question for you. If you could pin it to one kind of the biggest lesson you learned in those later years between years, like 15 to 25, the last decade of your lifting career. What's like the biggest lesson you took during that period of time?
- [70:13]
B
Ah, man, I, I would say probably like just how you can, like how important consistency is and how you can still make progress if you're consistent, even if the progress is slow. Because the number of times between like years 15 and 25, you know, I, I generally take, you know, two to four years and more recently three, four years, you know, between contest seasons, just due to wanting to progress and also just life. Right. I have way more responsibility in my 40s than I did when I was 20. And so there's other things going on in my life than bodybuilding and so. But I think just there are a lot of times during like a two, three year off season, four year off season, you're a couple years in, you're like, man, am I even seeing any progress? Am I even getting anywhere? And, and every time I would die down for shows, I, I would see progress. And like the, the three, four years, you know, between were worth it. You know, especially this last time. This was the biggest jump. This is probably the biggest jump I've seen in my physique since my late 20s, you know, in terms of an off season in, in a few years. But yeah, there, there's a lot of times I, you know, you like anyone, I'm like, man, are we even. Am I even getting anywhere? And, and I'm just, I'm glad I stayed consistent. And every time I would diet down, I'd look better and I'd be like, okay, like, this is worth it. And so like just having that knowledge that like, when you get into the off season, okay, am I getting anywhere? And it's like, well, you know, every time I do so I just need to keep putting in the effort and doing the things that lead to progress and it will love that.
- [71:48]
A
Yeah, I think it's that, that kind of quote people use a lot of the time, but has so much truth is like, trust the process. I'm always like, hey, progress doesn't stop if you don't stop type of thing. And I think that's, that's perfect. So, yeah, this has been a fantastic chat feat I've really enjoyed. If people want to keep up to date with your process or check out your coaching, where should they be heading?
- [72:10]
B
Yeah, so my website's fitbodyphysique.com I'm on Instagram @fitbodyphysique and Facebook as myself. Those are about the only social medias I have. But, yeah, YouTube.
- [72:23]
A
Soon, I'm sure you'll get into the YouTube game. Well, you're on YouTube now. You will be. But, yeah. And people can check out the before and afters that you posted up as well. I highly recommend they do and read the captions because there's a lot of value to be had in there. Thank you again, Pete, and thank you guys for listening. We'll catch you next time.