← The Revive Stronger Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, I just Venmo'd you for rent.
- [00:02]
B
Nice. Now I can instantly spend it whether I'm checking out online with Venmo or using a Venmo debit card.
- [00:08]
A
Say more. More.
- [00:09]
B
Exactly. Because the more you do with Venmo, the more you get, like, earning up to 5% cash. Back with Venmo Stash on a bundle of brands.
- [00:17]
A
So order more pizza.
- [00:18]
B
The math demands it.
- [00:20]
A
Get the Venmo debit card.
- [00:21]
B
Venmo stash bundle Terms and exclusions apply. See terms at Venmo Me Stashterms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank. Na. Eric, we're back with the Pepsi. I had my monster this morning and a coffee. Because I'm a. I say a caffeine fiend. Is some people. It's funny, I don't know about you, Eric. Some people, when I tell them how much caffeine I have, they're like, oh, that is a lot of caffeine. And then other people, like, I have like, five, six coffees a day. Like, that's nothing. Or they don't. Even if they tied it up, it would be a lot of caffeine. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. If you find people.
- [00:58]
A
What's your total milligram intake for the day?
- [01:00]
B
It's the. The coffee and the monster. So it's barely over 200 milligrams.
- [01:05]
A
And you do that at what time?
- [01:08]
B
Yeah, literally, I. I finish the.
- [01:10]
A
Ah.
- [01:10]
B
The monster will be finished by half nine. I get up at seven. So it's done really early in the day, so it's not impacting my sleeve. I just. For some reason, I don't know if there are some individuals who are very caffeine intolerant. So as soon as I say, like, more than one serving of caffeine, they're like, oh, my gosh, it's so much caffeine.
- [01:30]
A
I think. I think it's. They see it as a lot of caffeine in one go. Because they're thinking, oh, a coffee and an energy drink. Rather than thinking of it as the total amount of the grams per. Oh, sorry, the milligrams per kilogram or total milligrams, because that's not that much. Truly not.
- [01:48]
B
I also. I'm in control of my coffee because I wear out my beans. And so I have. Although I know there's a difference between arabica, robusta, all of that. And I have recently bought new beans and I have no idea where they land in this, but I know it's like a gram of coffee beans is roughly like 10 milligrams of caffeine. I think about this too much.
- [02:14]
A
Yeah, I mean, well, if you want a consistent level of stimulation, it's not the craziest thing to think about. But you don't train in the morning, do you?
- [02:23]
B
No, well, morning, ish. I train at like up at 7, I'm in the gym by 11. So. Ish. But I don't really use it as like a pre workout. It's more just.
- [02:35]
A
Yeah, it's just your morning.
- [02:38]
B
Yeah.
- [02:39]
A
Yeah. I don't think that's crazy. I don't think you're crazy. And anyone who thinks you're crazy, they're crazy, Steve.
- [02:46]
B
Well, I know I've had Andrew Chappelle on the podcast and he's done his bodybuilder. Oh, you may even been on the paper as well, actually. The case studies on bodybuilders and his bodybuilders gain to thousands of milligrams of caffeine a day, which I don't think is that rare, to be honest.
- [03:05]
A
I think especially during prep, man, like people just, yeah, they're trying to combat the fatigue and then they also just like tasting things that are honestly anything like. I tell you what, Steve, back in the day, I believe it was 2009, I didn't like mushrooms. And then I had mushrooms during some point in prep and I realized I could eat them and they were something I put in my mouth and chew and I realized that they had a flavor and I realized that I was starving. And then I started to like mushrooms. And I had basically for my first three preps, there was a food that I previously did not like as a normal, sane human named Eric, and then as a starving shell of a man named Eric who wanted to eat things that tasted like things that didn't have many calories, I slowly increase my palate to more things. So I get it, you know.
- [04:05]
B
Yeah, it does make sense. It's actually funny because whenever, if I talk to people that don't compete or don't know, do what we do, and they're like, I'm really struggling with my diet. And then like they walk me through what they're eating and I'm like, well, you could eat a lot blander foods like that would. That wouldn't be enjoyable. It's like, oh, okay, so you're not really struggling that much because yeah, you enjoy a sweet tasting carrot because it would taste sweet to you. If it was that hard.
- [04:32]
A
Oh, and I tell you what, the big carrots with that center rod, I like to eat around the center rod. Oh, no, no, no. I did. Yeah. Like deep in prep. It's funny, I have these moments where I am the sane person who I know still exists kind of outside of myself, looking on onward. And I go, that's a strange food behavior. And I go, yeah, it'll go back to normal eventually and I'll just eat carrots. But then I just accept it and it's fine. And my wife looks at me like, you know, you're eating a ring around the center ring and the carrot. And I go, yeah, well, the outside tastes different than the inside. I'm waiting to have the sweeter and different texture because it's not quite as layered. It's just this continuous thing on the inside. And she's like, shut the fuck up. You're talking about a carrot. I'm like, okay, well, I'm just going to keep doing it. So, yeah, it's a wonderful sport.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah. But the key message that you started out with was framing it as, you know, it's a short term, like, it's satisfying in this short term moment. I know it's not something that's going to hang around once I am actually eating like a normal human again. I know one of the things I have my clients do post shows. I just started to get them to rate out of five various metrics of like, what I would consider some of the symptoms of reduce energy deficit. And one of them was like, energy levels. And I kind of get them to rate it 1 out of like 0 to 5, 5 being like normal off season levels. And one of the descriptors for like normal energy was like, hey, if you were like upstairs and you forgot something downstairs, how much resistance would you have to being like, I need to go get that thing. If you have a high level of resistance, you are not near off season. If you're just like, ah, fuck, that was annoying. But I can run downstairs, nip back up, no problem. That's when you know you're in a pretty good recovered state. And yeah, you laughed because you know exactly that feeling of like, I'm just going to wait here, or if you need the loo, but it's down two floors. Like, you'll wait until you're literally going to pee your pants.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah. I think for me, another one is when I stop thinking about the steps that would come along with me going to use the bathroom. Then I also know I'm not necessarily in prep anymore. But you know the funny thing, it's like there was, I have had preps where I was initially like I was a new experienced prepper, if that makes sense. Right. It wasn't my first couple seasons and I was very much trying to be the guy who wasn't making a big deal out of prep. And then when I did those weird behaviors, I would try to like suppress them more instead of just like letting it happen and knowing that it doesn't mean anything because it's like it's going to happen. Like, you know, some of it's biological. You know, read the Minnesota semi starvation study. You know, like people do weird shit when they're starving. And it's not all just, it's not necessarily pathological, permanent or a problem unless you, you see it that way. Right. So I, I, I have had preps where I start to notice that I'm eating the carrot weird. And I'm like, we're not going to do that. You know, And I'm now I'm just like, it is what it is. I don't need, it doesn't need to mean anything, anything more than I'm eating a carrot weird because I'm hungry and I'm not going to think about it. Put more energy into trying to not eat the carrot weird is actually creating more rumination than otherwise. So that was kind of like 2011 was my third prep. I remember thinking about that and I was like, no, I'm good. This is easy. And I think it was all part of the pathway to just it becoming a much more normal thing now. But yeah, there's like most clinical diagnoses for psychological disorders or things that are in the dsm. Not all, but most have an element of like, okay, is there the thing? And then does it cause distress for the person and for it to typically meet the criteria? And that's something I remind myself. It's like the meaning we make of the things we do is often just as, if not more important than the actual thing itself. Not always. Especially when you're affecting other people. A narcissist or a sociopath, that diagnosis doesn't work that way. No, I feel fine with this. It's like, please stop killing children. It's like, no, you know what, I get that most people think this is a bad thing, but I'm fine with it. It's like, okay, but for many things that are kind of otherwise innocuous, if they didn't make you feel bad about yourself or feel shame or do Compensatory behaviors because you did the first thing you know, they're not necessarily pathological, like,
- [09:22]
B
licking every part of the plate just to make sure you got all the flavor and all the calories. You should just. You have onlookers who are like, that's pretty revolting, but okay. It's not that big of a stress, but I actually really like that. Framing on.
- [09:37]
A
Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. Now that you brought that up, I have a question for you. I lick plates at home. Do you lick them at restaurants if you're. If you're in prep?
- [09:46]
B
Oh, dear. I don't think. I think I have a slight revulsion to it, so I'm not sure. I definitely don't do it at restaurants and at home. I think I actually stopped myself doing it as well. I just know people do it because obviously, it's something I've recognized that I don't like. Yeah.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah. I. I also don't lick plates publicly, but I will spend far too much time with, like, a spoon trying to get, like, you know, like.
- [10:14]
B
Yeah.
- [10:15]
A
And then I'll sit like, barb, look at me. And I'm like, is this spoon noise bothering you? And it's really. Yeah, my God. Yeah. Put the spoon down.
- [10:24]
B
Yeah, that's. That's definitely fair. And. But the thing you made me think of is just, like, there are some things that are acceptable. Like, you said, like, in that carrot in that way. What are the downsides? Just recognizing that there's no point making prep harder than it needs to be. I do sometimes find some bodybuilders getting this hardcore mentality, and they just basically look to make prep as hard as physically possible in any way, shape, or form they can. Anything that can make it easier, they just view as, well, harder is better, so anything easier means I get worse results. Like, actually probably if you. Like you said, you accepted EMS carrot this way as not a big deal, that just relieves stress, that was completely unnecessary to the process. I can't think of anything offhand apart from. I've seen some bodybuilders say, like, they don't change anything about how they eat. They just eat less. So they don't change their food selection at all. And I'm like, wow, okay, so this. The rice, for example, staple for most bodybuilders. I don't eat much rice, apart from maybe refeeds and peaking when it digests really well. But, like, when I'm on low food, I don't want rice.
- [11:33]
A
Yeah, I think. I think there's something to be Said for like that that can be pretty individual. Like your. Correct me if I'm wrong, Steve, but you get to the point where like you are stuffed in the off season at reasonably not, not like high body fat levels. But for most people, well, we'd be still be look reasonably lean and you may be like 10% over stage weight and you're like struggling to maintain your food intake. Is that accurate?
- [11:59]
B
I would say previously it would have to be a bit above 10% now, but I. This season is the first season that I've purposely slowed my rate of gain and also stayed leaner and I haven't butted heads with any of that struggle. Like, I still enjoy food. I feel fantastic. I enjoy food less than I did like a year ago. But it's a year on and I haven't dieted or anything and I'm still enjoying food. It's just I'm not as like, oh, if it's a hour later to eat a meal, it's not a stress now I'm just like. Or if I'm very busy in a day, I'm like, oh, if I actually forgot to eat, I could quite easily have eaten like 500 to a thousand calories less. But I haven't got to the point where I sometimes have previously once I. It's like when I get into the 1 90s, particularly mid-190s, which is like 20 odd pounds above stage weight. So a bit above 10. 10 to 15%. Yeah. That's where I hit like I imagine actually what I feel there is some of the symptoms that I feel people get when they're on Ozempic where they get just like a literal nausea to eating. That's. That's what I get. Which is super weird. When I heard people describe it, I was like, that's what I feel when I'm like. Like you said, I'm not that soft that over stage weight. But for me it just is like a. My body's like, nana, you're not eating that.
- [13:16]
A
Yeah, because I bring that up because I think the point at which I get to. I could eat like, I like, I don't, I don't like, I'm not hungry or interested in food or not. I'm not excited for each meal is right around the point where you get stuffed, you know. So like for me I, again, it's so habitual. Like, I just don't, I don't care that much. So. I think we talked about this on one of the other Stronger Culture episodes, but I was hanging around 86, 87, thinking I was more recovered than I was. And then I got up to 88, 89, like, oh, no, no, actually I feel better now. And then most recently I got blood work done and I'm like, oh, now I'm really recovered And I'm like 90, you know, and so that's like 9 kilos or 20 pounds over stage weight. And this is the point where I now notice that I'm just less fussed about what I eat and I probably could accidentally eat into a deficit, a slight, or a slight surplus. But I think now my net behaviors, if I just somehow could erase my 22 years of habit and just did something different, I would maybe be at maintenance or 100 calorie deficit and drop 500 grams over five months or something like that. But yeah, I think if I was to walk around as lean as you do in the off season, which is just slightly, you know, probably slightly leaner than I am now, I would, my natural behaviors would push me into a surplus. So like my, my food doesn't change that much for a while because, you know, I, I just kind of keep eating similarly to prep and my portion sizes do go up, but you know, it's like two pieces of fruit at lunch, you know, or a few things here and there. But yeah, I think I, I eat bigger dinners too. I'm thinking about it now and I might be making a liar out of myself. Yeah, I basically eat the same food, one extra piece of fruit at breakfast and then I add like a cup and a half of rice on average to dinner to what I normally do. And then I switch from non fat Greek yogurt to like low fat Greek yogurt before I go to bed. But not a whole lot else changes, to be honest.
- [15:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's, it's interesting, you also reflecting on, you thought you were recovered, you then you gained, thought you were recovered and then you've gained again. It's like, oh, now I feel even better. It's like, I guess this recovered state could be like a bit of a range where it's like you are, but you're not, I don't know, you're not 100% or whatever it might be, because I can even say the same where when I was like two kilos lighter than I am now, like two to three kilos, I felt good, I had good energy, I was performing well in the gym. But now I'm like less food focused and like I'm not at all food focused, whereas I was like quite Interested in food back then, if I could manage it. You have your habits, environment, so on and so forth. Yeah, I had a libido, but now I'm like, I can just know it. You just know when it's up. I'm more interested in that activity and those thoughts. And then also my peeing. I found I can hold, retain needing a pee for longer. I would. If I'm on an hour, two hour podcast, I know I'm going to have to pee in the middle of that somewhere or in the middle of the night. Typically it would be one to two times, whereas now it's like one, maybe none. So yeah, it's interesting. You kind of get that next level of recovery and it's to the point where I could diet now if I wanted to, but I'm like, I have, I feel so good here. I want to live in this body for longer and keep gaining for longer.
- [16:59]
A
Yeah, I, I, I, I, I agree. And yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of interesting. Reflecting on how much of a struggle the off season transition was for me in my first couple years, my first couple seasons, I should say to now I can't accidentally be under recovered and not know it. And blood work helps, you know, and I think that's probably the way it should go in most cases. You know, like where your lifestyle and your habits become so automatic and habitual that the distinction between recovered ish to fully recovered it becomes closer where I think many times there's this blurring between the physiological things you're feeling from being slightly less recovered to fully recovered, but also the tension of you're trying to figure out what type of lifestyle do you maintain? Is it something close to prep, which feels like a big deviation and takes a lot of restraint to follow because it's so different than what you would otherwise otherwise like to do. And then figuring what degree of your kind of quote unquote normal behaviors do you want to go back to are you still going to have pizza night? You know, things like that. And I think the goal, although it might sound, and if it does something to reflect on, although it might sound unsustainable, is to make your off seasons quite similar to prep, at least qualitatively in terms of the food selection and the structure because man, does it make things easier. I couldn't even really fathom in 2007 or nine, my first two seasons, the idea of living my life the way I do now and eating the way I do now, but it's just year round and I like it and it's who I want to be and it's who I identify as. And I think that was a really big learning for me because a lot of my content as a, and even my coaching was kind of with the assumption that most people would want to and would continue to want to go back to a quote unquote, normal way of eating in the off season. And I think that was heavily colored by my background as someone who didn't really care about, didn't think about it, was a skinny dude and like would just kind of eat a high protein but not very healthy or satiating diet in the off season. And then, you know, as that changed over time and I became more thinking about like how to kind of optimize everything and that, you know, improving the way you transitioned from prep to the off season was largely about, you know, kind of being able to stay as lean as possible, but still fully recovered. I eventually got to the point where, and as, you know, like, oh, I could be under recovered because I've developed that. So I think now I'm much more actively thinking about as a content creator and as a coach. That's actually where we want to get to and the timeline of what that looks like and who the person is, what family dynamic they have, how much they enjoy food as a hobby, I think, or a recreation, you know, is this person a chef, you know, things like that, or, or do they just really enjoy eating or is this just something that they actually do struggle with healthy eating generally? And prep is kind of something that is quite a diversion and has been for a while. Like I kind of have to treat them like someone who is a general pop client who also then pushes themselves really hard and does a prep. And there's a surprising number of people who maintain that deep into a career. And I think those tend to be the people who struggle with binge eating more. And prep feels a lot harder and it is a bit more of kind of like a Rocky movie each time. And I'm sometimes impressed with them because I'm like, man, that wasn't sustainable for me and it really takes away the joy from competing. So yeah, I think as a coach, that was not something I would have identified in the first couple years of me coaching as something that we need to work on. It was more of just kind of like the day to day, pragmatic logistical strategies of how do we manage what you're dealing with right now? And then, okay, go back to the off season, whatever. Here are your macros, here are your protein targets but not actually thinking about that. And now it's like a key piece of courses we teach related to nutrition. My content publications I've written about and of course when I'm working with someone that is something I'm actively looking at and then trying to help them determine because I think it is probably one of the most important things for long term sustainability in the sport. So it's funny how the perspectives change and I don't think I could have necessarily predicted that in my first two competitive seasons.
- [21:51]
B
Yeah, it makes so much sense and I'm going to sound like a hypocrite here because I'm definitely going to agree with you that I think your off seasons and the eating your diet should look similar and closer to contest prep as you go through because I think like you said, that's just a great way to eat especially if you're going to eat mindfully. Trying to do that with like a not nutrient dense, like full of plants based diet with lots of fiber and filling foods where you're going to eat mindfully junk, you're going to pack on so much, so much weight and that's not going to be good for you so you're going to put yourself in trouble. But I definitely think I'm similar in terms of the difference between the two, got closer and closer but I think my preps were became less extreme in terms of, I don't know, sticking to rigid foods and not allowing myself to eat out, so on and so forth. And then my off seasons also got closer to like hey, focusing on quality nutrition. Eat as many like fruit and veg as possible. Yeah, they just came closer and closer together and yeah avoided those extremes and I mean that's unfortunately that's where like the old school bodybuilding kind of was in some ways like cheat meals off plan meals. Like that's kind of where that mentality came from. And I often find as you mentioned, I don't think especially the first times going through that post show recovery is really, really tough. But I find people trying to navigate to that, trying to like you said, stay as lean as you can whilst being recovered. I think that can get leaner and leaner because your habits and the way you eat, you get more mature with that because at the start people really struggle with like that delayed gratification of don't eat too many meals out immediately and maybe don't eat the donuts and cookies immediately. And like once your taste buds have kind of acclimatized to hey, like protein bars aren't like amazing tasting, they just are okay, like you can start incorporating these things later. But having that degree of patience once you've just gone through like your first 20 to 30 week comp prep where you've been restricted for the first time to an extreme you're not used to is pretty tough. So you kind of, I think I give those people grace in terms of, hey, we might overshoot that bottom end where we wanted to be mini cut back down to it and now we're in a better place next season or next prep is going to be better there. So that's cool. I have a question for you, Eric, that's just propped up. I spoke to Evan Godby, who I know you know, I don't know if you've been interacting with him much lately, but I think you have because I had him on the podcast. I don't know if that episode will come out before or after this, but it'll be close to when this comes out. And he's been through a really tough time battle with cancer, which I know that, but the reason I brought him up is because we talked about classic a little bit because he's competed in classic, but what not with the wnbf. And it just made me think about the next time you step on stage. I actually haven't asked and I don't know if you've spoken about it because I know you have aspirations within the pro leagues for men's bodybuilding. Are you trying your bat at Classic again?
- [24:41]
A
I, I am, I'm, I'm a little bit on the fence but I'm far less motivated to do classic now because there was a non significant part of me that I didn't fully acknowledge or realize that was looking at classic as, oh, I'm not as good at bodybuilding so maybe I'll, I should do classic because I'll have a better shot. And I think once I realize that part of me looks at it and goes, listen, objectively I probably have a physique that would do better in classic and I've had, you know, people agree with me on that and I try to put my judges hat on and I go, yeah, I could see that. But I think because so much of my personal journey lately has been about self belief and giving myself more credit and really leaning into like the idea of hey, like dude, you, you play six out of 11th and the, and the, and the toughest division where the overall winner came at worlds and you were getting a lot of comparisons with the top three and like you're not done. Like if you made that, if you put on two kilos and one extended off season, you know, even, even science quote unquote, would say, like, you got a little bit more left to do. Like that was a rate of gain that, you know, if you, if you look at that kind of logarithmic rate, maybe you can get another kilo or a half or a kilo and a half, you know. And, and what would that mean if one took you from placing, you know, bottom of the pack, you know, then, then, then, then if you could do that again, maybe you're actually cracking top five or top three, you know. And that is still something that I'm working on truly accepting and believing. And I think it's almost, it almost, it feels less motivating for me to go, well, what if I could just place top three now in classic? And I'm like, eh, you know, like. But I'm sure I would. Whatever I would do to get to my peak in bodybuilding would still help me as a classic competitor because I'm nowhere near to the point. I'm like, I'm just, I just don't have the structure where getting bigger would take away from my potential on either one. Especially in the wbf. Like, the way it's judged, it is much more of kind of like your baseline structure and posing skill that I think dictates your placing rather than there being a, like, oh, you could get too big, which there are some natural competitors say if they're looking at the bikini division or even sometimes figure a fit body less often, but sometimes to where they would actually hold back their muscle size. And that's just not the way the men's divisions work really. I would even say in men's physique because as long as you have a small waist, go wild kind of thing. And the only thing that could ever hold you back is if you're making your shorts look too tight. So just keep bigger shorts, right? Like if you really love legs. So anyway, if I get to a point where I think I've truly milked everything that I can out of my physique for bodybuilding, I might try again and just see like, okay, I maxed out. Helms is third to fifth in bodybuilding, but he's top three in classic. Eh, you know, like, sure, I'll jump across, but part of me wants to like, it looks like it feels like a higher, more challenging Everest that I like a little bit more in the bodybuilding division. Cool.
- [28:25]
B
That makes sense. Yeah. And I Like that. And you're completely right. When you talk me through that, I'm like, yeah, I mean, for sure. Bodybuilding, like, if you were getting compared to the top three, like I was literally thinking as you were talking through, if that was me, I'd be like, that's awesome. I can't wait to kind of see where I would land next time. And I mean, you never know because different people turn up. There could be a year where it's just like the best of the best decide to turn up to World. You're like, right, okay, I objectively did worse, even though I gained like another kilo or something.
- [28:55]
A
But, you know, like, I almost think about it like, hey, if, if, if there were 10 different versions of reality where we, you know, re rolled the dice, but very, very similar versions of reality, and we had a different lineup at Worlds of who who was the who's who in bodybuilding, would I still be placing? And like, like one, two or three spots, assuming there was no pandemic or the WNBF didn't do something that massively tanked. It's like the number of people who did Worlds. Because I also know, yeah, my physique is gonna be my physique, but who shows up? The judging panel, the lighting at the show, all that stuff, it's gonna nudge things. Honestly, the who shows up, especially sometimes three places. So I could bring the same physique and just happen to be in that division and be, oh, shit, I'm seventh, even though I was better than when I played sixth. And like that, that's kind of like accounting for that. So it's like a theoretical model of my placing at Worlds, not the actual place, which is, you know, a weird thing in our strange sport. But I think, yeah, no, I totally agree. Just to clarify, it's not just about the placing, it's about kind of my view. And, you know, actually Cliff Wilson said this. Well, on a podcast recently. It was like, you kind of need to look at like phases of your career. And if you do like a handful of shows is like the average placing going up. If you're still doing highly competitive shows and similar competitions in the same category, I'm writing everything on how did I do at Worlds in November in this one. And if you're in a position where that is something you consider, you better be one of the best in the world, because that's the only time that is going to be a reliable thing. Yeah, Babakar is like, hey, second is a pretty big step down. And he's just literally looking at the professor then fair. But that's not most of us and we shouldn't take that approach. Or it can be quite the roller coaster of emotions.
- [31:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's tough. And what that made me think of actually what you mentioned there was a lot of people have that pro card as the goal, but I do think having a pro worthy physique should be the goal because then there's. You step on enough stages and you're going to get the card. Whereas if you're just all about the card, you might end up getting it depending on what the judges think and the federation or what have you and you're not ready for it and then you're on a playing field that you don't want to be in because now you're just going to be bottom of the pack and that's not going to be fun. I kind of reflect upon that where I try and in some senses I'm very similar to you, Eric, where I try and convince myself that I truly earned it. I had a pro worthy physique. And they're like, I didn't, I don't know, somehow get it by chance. Obviously there was absolutely chance. So I think this, this next season for me is probably going to be similar to like your pro debut season in a sense where I'm like just trying to prove to myself that yes, I am worthy of the card. And on that level, part of me really feels like I am. But I won't be satisfied until I can feel like, hey, I did a bunch of pro shows, I was in the mix. It wasn't just last place, last place, last place type of sensation because it's competitive bodybuilding. That's why I think about, I want to be competitive here.
- [32:17]
A
Yeah, it was, I think it takes a bit of chipping away. Like there, there have been multiple times where I'm like, okay, now I truly believe in myself. And then I like, I notice something like, I think a good example was the classic realization, you know, which happened last year, Right. And then another one was also last year is when I placed fifth out of sixth in my first pro show in Taiwan. But the guy I beat got his pro card on the day. And it made me realize that I didn't think I could turn pro at a show like Taiwan. I was like, actually I could. You know, I'd just beat a guy who did. Right. And it made me reflect back on my 2019 and 2023 season where I was like, hold on. I have actually been in the Position of being within a certain level of competitiveness, a top dog. Because you and I were both top amateurs in the hunt for a pro card, right? And like you said, there was a degree of luck, but we also knew that we had to have developed a certain physique to even get to the point where we could be in the hunt for a lucky day to get a pro card. And I think that was a helpful realization because it gave me some insight that I do kind of get what it's like to be a higher level pro, but just from a different context. So, for example, I remember in 2019, I was in the hunt for the pro card, and the very first show I did, I placed second to the guy who ended up winning the overall in a show in Hawaii. And then the next show I did, I won the show, but it was too small to award a pro card. And then the next show I did, I played second in the middleweights. And then the final show I did that season, I placed second in a. It was like a natural IFBB show here in New Zealand because we didn't yet have in 2019, WNBF and then in 2023. So now I'm in my mind, I'm like, I either am placing first or second in amateur shows. Like that's all it's ever been. And then that started to play out again. I won the show in New Zealand, but again, not enough to turn pro. I go to the states and I compete in the battle of the Bay, second biggest show typically in Cali. And I placed second to the guy who won the overall to get his pro card. And I was in the biggest division. And there was, I think eight or nine of us, and I placed second, but it wasn't the super pro, so you had to win the overall. And then I went to Washington and I placed third out of four. And even though I knew that one of them already had a pro card, men's physique, you know, one of them was like, it was three. It was a very, very good class. You know, Josh placed fourth in that class, and now he's a classic pro, right? And then the guy who placed second already had his pro card. And then. So it was a blow, though, for me because now I'm a third out of fourth after seeing myself as the guy who only plays first or second. And I got really down on myself for a bit, and I was like, okay, so this is. You have let placings affect you too much. And then lo and behold, the next show I did, I Won. I got my pro card. So it was kind of the thing where you can start to get too focused on placings and kind of put yourself in a position to where you're vulnerable because of just the nature of the luck of the draw of who shows up. And you really do have to maintain that kind of view that placings are just one piece of the puzzle that tell you how good are you and what is your potential. And so each one of those experiences, Steve from 2019, which, geez, seven years ago now and by the next time I compete might be eight or nine years ago, even though I was already a seasoned competitor, that was my, you know, my first season again was 2007. It takes some time and you do have to chip away at some of those kind of core beliefs and the tendencies you might have towards, you know, setting yourself up for rude awakenings which also give you insight into your own self limiting beliefs. So yeah, I think just, I would just say be ready for it to be a process rather than a moment, which I wanted it to be. And it was, I had moments, you know, the day after I turned pro and realizing that I thought it was a fluke and it wasn't the, you know, the Eric Helms gift and then having to get talked off the ledge by my friend. So yeah, I'm sure I'll probably still have some more, but it is, each time is a little bit better than the last and a little more objective and a little more facilitative towards doing better in the sport.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, it makes so much sense. It's kind of a hard one because ultimately I do think the journey should be you versus you. But it is like placings are objective. They are the reason we kind of compete for those placings. And it's funny actually Reflecting and thinking 2017, I placed at the UK FBA. Not top three, but it was top five. They're like international finals. There was some really good caliber athletes. But I reflect on that physique, I'm like, I don't think that would do that anymore because the level of competition has just risen so high. Which brings me to actually, I don't know if. Did you see any of the WNBF uk that was this past weekend. The novice and first timers. Have you seen any of the content from that page?
- [37:57]
A
No. And now I'm curious but. But I've always been the overall winners. Okay. Because I have had some athletes who've done, who've come, who've competed in the UK circuit and like it is it really does mean something to place top five in amateur shows in the more competitive shows there, man. Like, that is one thing. I think I'm going to make a claim. I think the most consistently conditioned athletes in bodybuilding come from bodybuilding in the uk, like, as a class. Not. Like, there are certainly some people who are leaner than others. But if you were to tell me the average level of conditioning, especially in an open category and the amateur level in bodybuilding, where do you think there would be the most number of competitors who were, like, diced? I'd be like, yeah, you give me a show in London and I'll show you some bodies that you'd be like, God damn. Like, that's an amateur, you know?
- [39:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember I've heard you guys on 3DMJ podcast being like, hey, if you turned up with lines in your glutes, you'd like, get the pro card at one point in bodybuilding. And it's like, there was a lot of guys with actually some females with striate glutes. Not that that was appropriate for that category, actually, on reflection, for them, but they still had them there. But they. Why? Yeah, I just wanted to say for the. The overall winners, if you check them out, the class, like, the class, just some of the. The guys coming up now, just absolutely wild. And it's. It's great to see, but it also pushes me to, like, push harder. Especially like you said, with the UK being so good and feeling in a sense like I'm representing as a pro from the uk, I'm like, I need to, like, keep up with these guys and like, stay above them in a sense. And also judging makes you feel that way a little bit too, where it's like, you're meant to be like someone of importance and people kind of look up to you in that sense. You don't want to be, like, behind some of the people on stage so much. It doesn't feel quite right in that sense. But anyway, I'm kind of rambling here. I do have some points that we've been generally talking about, Eric, in regards to the 1 percenters, and two things that we might be able to cover today that I think would be interesting. Interesting. And I didn't know for some reason in my head, you own a whoop band. Is that right? Or did you had. Do you have a fitness tracker?
- [40:25]
A
I used to have a Fitbit, but I. I don't know where that came from because I actually had someone else message me like, Eric. So I know you wear a whoop band. I was like, I do not. So that is. There's a belief on the Internet that Eric Helms has a whoop band. But it probably. I accidentally said that at some point, but I have had. I used to have. Well, I know I still have it. I just don't wear it. But I wore it until. Yeah, I think I wore it through early 2024 and then I stopped.
- [40:55]
B
So, yeah, with these fitness tracker devices, I think bodybuilders, especially natural bodybuilders, a certain breed are like, they're as we've spoken before about supplements. Like, they'll take every supplement on the sun and then they'll purchase anything that could potentially be useful to help them be that, like, 1% better. And that's kind of what this kind of, I guess, PODC and these initial episodes have become. Talking about some of these 1 percenters that we maybe do or do not invest into. And there's a lot of people who use the whoop. A lot of people using Oura rings. The number of times I've kind of taught myself off the cliff edge of buying an Oura ring because I'm just like, man, it'd be cool to have an Oura ring. Maybe I should be getting one. And every time any research comes out about the kind of fitness trackers, I'm disappointed in the information they can give you and the quality of that information in regards to calorie burn to the sleep information. I think now maybe some of the. I think they're getting better over time and some of the feedback's better too. So, like, if you slept a certain way, I think aura now in the app will give you advice of how it thinks you might be able to do better in future. But with as sleepers, for an example, I've spoken to Greg Potter about it plenty of times where I've been like, do you think I should get an aura ring? He's like, no. He's like, you just don't need it. It's essentially because he's, in a sense, he's like, you know, all the things that would lead to good sleep. You do that as often as you can. You'll get the sleep you can and then like reflect on it the next day. And if you feel poorly, you probably know what you did or didn't do. Get back to the good habits and routines. I'm like, you're right. The Oura ring wouldn't give me anything. I'd probably just have it on my hand and I wouldn't look at the app at any point. Or like people use things like heart rate variability to try and kind of gauge their fatigue to some extent, or I think whoop has like a recovery or a readiness or something like that. But I. I've just never been convinced that it's something that would be helpful. And I'm more so aware that it could potentially be harmful and maybe we're better off just listening to our body. Although not that that's quite subjective, but can be informative if you know the things to like listen to. So over to you, Fitbit. You used it, you don't use it. Now, kind of. What are your thoughts on fitness trackers and why haven't you got a whoop?
- [43:14]
A
I have like three thoughts and I'm going to try to be organized as I tell you them. I think the first one is just the technology in general and the research on it. You would probably think, I would say the research doesn't look good and I would say it looks good for some things, it doesn't look good for others. And a limitation of that is that the algorithms and the software and even some of the hardware is changing at a pretty fast pace that is not super well aligned with the timeline it takes to publish a study on that. Right. So by the time a study comes out, because peer review itself can sometimes take six months to a year, they're probably on at least one, if not two iterations of at least the software being notably different. And the companies that do it well are iterating in a way that improves at least the customer facing outcomes. And often are they doing some internal testing that should make it more reliable and more valid. With that said, I think there are some constraints that like there's things that we haven't solved in the research world or the medical world with a lot more money going into it and a higher standard that is as soon as a wearable claims to do something better than that, I'm very skeptical. Right. So like for example, actigraphy is like your B kind of standard for tracking sleep. And then polysomnography is the gold standard where you actually do a sleep study. Right. And the data, if you look at those, it shows like actually gauging which sleep stage you're in is less reliable as you go down from polysomnography to actigraphy. And actography is like supercharged version of wearing, like a wearable. I'm simplifying. And so when a wearable is telling me at this stage of development that it can tell me which Sleep stage I'm in. I don't buy it if it's telling me it can give you the time of when you went to bed and when your heart rate dropped to the lowest it normally gets and then when you got up and when it came up. Sure. So total sleep time, totally fine in this era. And once we have even better clinical and high end non commercial grade devices that can do that more reliably, then maybe I'm open to the idea that a commercial logarithm based app can get there, Algorithm based app, excuse me, can get there but we're not there yet. So I kind of know, okay, don't have expectations for it. You can't kind of put the ah, but the app's ahead of the science like too far out there. You have to have a known constraint. So right now energy expenditure, not buying it. You know, unless you've got doubly labeled water getting like injected into you from that whoop band, it ain't gonna happen. Right. And so like basically step count and total sleep I think are where you are getting useful information. Heart rate variance? Yeah, actually that is one. But then, then you have to know which metrics are actually things that would give you more than if you didn't have the thing itself. And because heart rate variance doesn't really track reliably with strength, performance, volume capability or even necessarily telling you how much you should do for lifting, although it does have applications to endurance training, I'm kind of like that's going to influence your perception but not necessarily be useful. So I'm good. So there are other data for general wellness, health or non bodybuilding specific purposes that I think you could get out of some of these wearables that I don't think are useful for bodybuilding and like you said in some cases could be counterproductive. And the reason I stopped wearing my Fitbit is that my day to day habits are quite similar and I know the step count associated with the different cafes that I go to in the morning and what a day looks like where I'm at at aut and running around the building and driving, parking and walking or what a day looks like when I'm basically seated at my desk or if I'm standing versus seated and then how many I get when I train. So I didn't need to be told when I could. Basically the same way of why I don't track all the time and weigh things because I'm within 5 grams of estimating the weight of the a sweet potato. I'm also typically within hundreds of steps of guessing where I would be at with, at least with the wearable that I had. And they do vary. So since my habits don't necessarily change that much when I start prep, I just, I get to a point where I decide do I want to reduce, reduce portion sizes of the foods I'm eating or swap fruits or, or find ways to cut carbs and fatty foods out or turn them into something else without drop my protein, or do I want to manipulate my life so that I get more steps or both, and it's more of knowing that I'm going from a baseline and making a relative change rather than needing to track the specific amount because there's variance in other places anyway where I think there's a level of precision, people are fooling themselves into getting to feel comfortable rather than objectively needing to do to make progress. So that is kind of the first two statements is what do we know? And then how much does it matter? And then why I stopped. The final thing I will say is that ultimately that piece you said there where Greg Potter recommended like, hey, do you feel poorly or not? I think for most things there should be some monitoring check on whether or not the thing you're manipulating has produced a favorable outcome. And I think that's where a lot of the fitness industry sends people the wrong way and where there's a good example of how to do it properly in sports science. And I don't mean published sports science, I mean the actual profession of being a sports scientist. Because if you get a job working for Chelsea or the, the Dodgers or something like that, they're not just going to take your word for it. You need to show them objective data. You need to show them, I tracked this, I did something to improve it, and we won more games. That's it. It's very capitalist in terms of what actually happens. And the people who get sacked the most are nutritionists and SNCs and sports scientists. Because if you can't justify in a, a business model that you are actually contributing to the bottom line, then you're going to get axed. And that's a rough reality, but it's the way it is. And I think the fitness industry, because it teaches you to chase problems that you didn't even know you had, or it gives you a solution to a problem that you didn't even know existed. And then it's the placebo effect or the nocebo effect or simply just avoiding the silent killer. I think a lot of bodybuilders do things where they can't tell if it actually did a better or a worse thing for them. And I think in some cases that maybe you have to go on faith. I don't know that I can notice creatine, Steve, but I know creatine works. But 90% of the stuff I do it is because some data tells me that I should be doing it. And for example, like, there was a comment and I didn't really get offended by it, but there was a person who was like, eric needs to understand that if he's getting these PRs during these low volume phases, he should be on lower volume. And I was like, dude, I have like 22 years of tracking data. Do you think I'm like, what do you think I'm doing with my life? Do you think every time I go low volume, I hit a pr, then I go, well, and then they go back to high volume because it might be better? It's like, no, those PRs reliably come after a high volume phase followed by a low volume phase. And I've noticed that over the past two years. It's not just low volume on itself, or it would never go back up. You know, I have tried to ride it out, and then the PRs come slower. So it made me realize just how many people are doing high or low volume training because their heroes do it or because they have a perception about it and that I'm fundamentally different than that. Like, I pushed the volume up. What happened? Okay, I change exercises. What happened? Okay, I took the volume down. What happened? All right, I switched to long muscle length exercises. What happened? I pulled out powerlifting. What happened? There's gotta be the. What happened? I just can't even understand people who operate in that and just kind of like I'm just doing what YouTube says and I don't know, you know, like, because I have been obsessed with trying to become a better powerlifter, or I'm obsessed with helping someone do that as a coach or a better bodybuilder. I'm like, I have DEXA scans, I have skin folds, I have circumferences, I have serial blood work going back to mid prep. And now I got my last blood work back in April. So I have hypotheses and then I test them. Now, granted, it's not like an RCT where there's some version of me who didn't do it, but there's only so much regression to the mean or, you know, things that you can get in a fixed system. So it's the best inference I can make. So I think the last point that I want to make about a wearable is if you are getting something to track data, you better damn well be doing something with the data that is different than what you could do normally. So the reason why I don't use it for sleep is the same reason why I don't use it for steps. I no longer need it to know where my step count is or to make decisions about could I add more steps or should I add more steps? Steps for proper health. I know when I feel shitty after a poor night of sleep. I know when I have woken up. Some people don't, which is fair. Like they just. I just feel. Don't feel good. And then they get a sleep study and they realize, wow, I have sleep apnea. But that's not me. I have a very distinct different experience when I sleep five or six hours versus seven or eight and it catches up to me quick. It impacts a lot of things. And I'm not trying to optimize some variable that feels like I need a tracker to tell me there's a problem. And I think that should be again, 90% of what you do. Like, how do you. If you're going to track data, if you're going to monitor something, how do you know if it actually was bad or good and what can you do to change it? And if you can't answer those questions, you shouldn't be tracking that data.
- [54:09]
B
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I think there's definitely a time where people hear those sayings, like, without data, I'm blind. You can't manage what you don't measure. And they think to a point more data is better. And I definitely think as online coaching grew, it was like, oh, what more things can we kind of discuss and like have a marketing point. It's like, oh, we can track all these different variables from X, Y and Z and whatever. Like what's it called? Your like blood sugar levels? Very like blood glucose at various times through the day, your hrv, like just resting heart rate in general, then sleep scores, sleep hours. And it's like, like you said, you can have all this data and it's taken all this time, but it's like, is the co as a coach, are you looking at that and how much is that informing what you're doing? And then for the client, like, what are they getting out of that? And I could see especially for people that are a bit less structured or they're just getting into some of these habits like having like you said, what the fitness apps can be good for is like a bed and wake time and it can tell you how many hours you've been in bed for, potentially give you some indication of how long that's been asleep. That could be helpful for someone who's trying to build that like habit into doing it. But for someone who's as structured as what you are, Eric, and where I am, and I loved your kind of being very analogous to the way you eat and then like steps, your day to day habits are so similar. Imagine there's a lot of people that are like that, that. So then this tool just starts to become not that useful. And yeah, I had Greg back on 2024. There was a study that we were just talking through and basically was just confirming everything you said in terms of the fitness apps are not at a stage where they can tell you you're in this stage of sleep, so on and so forth. So I've just had discussions with clients where they're telling me like, oh, I had more deep sleep this day and I think it was because of this. And I'm like, I don't think we can and know that from the data. And if you enjoy looking at it, fine, but don't obsess about it. And certainly if I don't know, the fitness track is telling you, oh, you know, readiness is terrible today, but you feel really good and you woke up great and now you don't feel great. That's not a great thing. And there's such a thing as like, oh, it's kind of similar to orthorexia, which I don't think is an actual, like, legitimate term, but people are aware of like obsessive clean eating and like only eating certain foods. There's like obsession with having the best sleep possible and being optimal with that and then that actually harming your sleep because you're overthinking about it. You're lying in bed and you wake up and you're like, oh my God, my sleep's causing me terrible. My sleep's gonna be down. Whereas if you didn't have all of that, you just chill out, wait a bit of time, you'll fall back to sleep properly. And as long as your sleep environment's a good one and you don't have kids, like saying, daddy, wake up and come, come help me, I'm scared or something, whatever it is, you're gonna be in a good spot. So loved all of that. And also the final thing, something I recognized about myself, especially many Many years ago, I too often outsourced a lot of the things that were going on. So I'd look to gurus to try and guide and give me answers of, oh, I'm doing this exercise, but they're recommending this one. Oh, I should change my program to that one because they know what they're doing and I don't know what I'm doing. Whereas actually better is okay, I'm doing this exercise. What are the results I'm getting with it? And like you said, be your own hypothesis and then research, study and see what's happening in real time. I think far too often people are looking, especially social media, for like again, the Eric Helms program. How many sets are you doing? Oh, I should be doing that because I want to gain that 2 kilos that you also gained. It's like, ah, that's not the way to go about it. You need to bring it back to the principles, apply them to you, assess and move forward there. So yeah, I think that that all makes a ton of sense and doesn't surprise me that we're aligned in terms of not using like the fitness trackers and just it's extra fluff that isn't really providing all that much. As an aside, I don't know if you use any recovery tools at all. I've just seen these become more popular. Obviously people will be aware of. For the longest time, foam rollers have been a thing and then the theraguns massage guns were a thing. And I've seen more recently like compression products, I've seen people using compression boots. Is there anything like that, that utilize. I imagine if there are things that would allow you to recover from even more volume, you might consider it. So I'd be interested in.
- [58:28]
A
Yeah, I think if I was in a position where the constraint was recovery rather than time, I would consider some of them. So like, and there have been times, but like right, right now it's not. So here's okay. I'm trying to answer multiple questions in my brain at the same time. The recovery stuff primarily seems to assist with systemic recovery of performance and perceptions of soreness and muscle damage. Right. So when you look at some of the data on what do they do, one of those is potentially relevant, the other one probably isn't. You know, like there are different types of performance and being unable to like jump as high as you possibly could doesn't mean you can't get in a good leg day. Right. So I think that's very important for a team sport athlete. You know, but not necessarily relevant for competitive physique athlete or someone who just wants to get as big as possible. The second piece is, okay, let's say muscle damage is at a point where it's actually impeding your ability to get a good session in. And theoretically maybe there's some fibers that just can't be stimulated and you're missing out on a little something. Even though you could still get a good workout and it could be even better. I think now you have to ensure that whatever recovery modality you're working with doesn't have a potential downside. And that's some of the issues on the data with say, cold based therapy. And then some of the data on heat is really interesting and I'm curious about it, but it also seems to be a bit of an exercise mimetic. So it's like, are we seeing improvements in outcomes because the studies are not pushing people to their limit and then adding a heat stress, or is it that they're not pushing their recovery and it's actually an additional stimulus? You know, So I think heat is really interesting, but because it is potentially an exercise mimetic, I wouldn't be super enthused about just dumping it on top of somebody who is like pushing their recovery limits in all cases. I need to, I think we need more research on that for me to understand its components. And I might be doing a bit of both. Compression is one of the ones that I do think probably has no downside and only has ups. From what I've seen, that's one of the more reliable recovery metrics. And I think in my case specifically, I don't have enough of a experience of crippling doms or like very variable degrees of performance. Cause I'm trying to train really hard too soon after my last session. My training is set up in such a way that that's typically not the bottleneck. I have been there though, where I thought, you know, if I was able to continue to train twice a day, if I was clocking 12 to 14, you know, sessions per week, and each one of those individual sessions are more six to eight sets per muscle group, then yeah, maybe I could see that becoming a necessity, or not a necessity, but something that could benefit me, but I'm just not there. And I think this is more likely something that is going to become important in athletes who have sports that they can demand much more of themselves. So concurrent training, crossfit, team sport athletes are the most obvious application. And, and that's just like it's one of those things where it does work, it does help recovery and I would not fault anyone from doing it. But I typically don't think that many of the strategies in sports science are relevant outside of people who are living a life like a professional athlete. And many times the constraint of how much you can benefit from in the lifting world is to the point where some of the recovery modalities are not going to be useful. There are things that prevent like the whole reason we don't observe over training in strength training is because the intensity is so high that it limits the amount that you can dig a hole. Right. You're more likely in my opinion to suffer a musculoskeletal injury than you are to actually get get overtraining syndrome in a clinical sports science definition. And the more your sport also includes other things like undereating or pushing massive amounts of expenditure up to where you can't fuel for it, or you're training across multiple modalities and making adaptations to your cardiovascular system as well as your muscular system and asking it to do multiple things. And also the cognitive demand and also getting impact. Now all of a sudden it starts to make sense like we need to do everything we can on the recovery side. But when I think you have a very narrow sport and it's constrained by intensity, a lot of the things that make sense for recovery in sports science just aren't that applicable. So for me it's like nutrition, sleep and good programming covers even for someone pushing the limits of volume, almost everything. And that also does have individual differences which I will acknowledge like I am probably more robust to muscle damage than most. At least it seems to be that way. But yeah, so I think it's one of those things like yes, this is evidence based but it has applications. It's like the same reason I don't take beta Alanine. It absolutely works but it doesn't matter for me.
- [64:23]
B
Me yeah, not specific to bodybuilders trying to kind of induce hypertrophy. It's more endurance athletes are going to benefit from the buffering there. So it makes so much sense. And I'm again mirrors my thoughts and you said what I was thinking was for those individuals who do and I have a few clients, very few clients like this who just notoriously always get very sore after they train in those sort of situations. Maybe some compression garments are something that they could try but. But it's in my case similar to you. I think once you are pushing volume so high and frequency quite high, the repeat about effect kicks in and you just aren't getting that much kind of muscle soreness. So I think similar to you, if I was to use it it's like well at the moment my legs are recovering and progressing on time as I'm pushing my limits of volume. So I'm not sure what extra recovery this thing is going to be doing for me. So it makes sense that yeah, some of the things bodybuilders have tried to use from nutrient timing and I know there was kind of a lot of research that initially came out that looked really promising. It was like actually doesn't seem to be that big of deal. And I think some bodybuilders still hold on to a lot of that where they try and like hey, like have all the whole box of cereal and like whey protein isolate after a workout because maximize glycogen replenishment, all of this. But it's like hey, actually we have such a window of recovery to we're next training that muscle. As we know it's not that kind of post workout window. It is that barn door. Very similar with just bodybuilding in general where it's like hey, we don't have, we're not kind of athletes who are training and doing competitions on a very frequent basis where muscles have to be like really recovered that quickly. And like you said, if you're smart with your programming, take care of your sleep, stress management and nutrition, you're basically doing everything you can be, which is nice. It just I think again for people who are trying to eke out every 1% they're like oh why isn't there like one little hack that I can do here? And definitely the ice bad idea. We have a good amount of data on that now, don't we? Where it's like hey, for hypertrophy you don't want to be doing regular kind of ice baths and things like that. There's a lot of those strategies where yeah, it can help with muscle damage but is it potentially taking away from the body's natural recovery which is part of hypertrophy that you want in cases. And we're not just looking to perform, we're looking to get that adaptation. So very rightly said. And yeah, it's interesting on the heat sauna is something I've been looking at like here and there and been interested in. We even thought about, hey, is there a way I could get like a. It's infrared sauna which there's different saunas and the data therefore is different because I know a lot of the kind of promising research is done on the old like actual like wooden finish type of sauna versus the infrared ones. But that not so much as a recovery. It's more so like the health benefits that that could potentially drive. And it sounds nice as well. And like doing a sauna before bed maybe it kind of helps some of that sleep. Anyway, I'm rambling but great dissection there, Eric. And it's I think good for people to know, hey, I'm not missing out on something if I'm not doing this like flashy new gadget or what have you. And hey, it's often just comes back to those big principles, the big rocks and getting those in place, which I think often similar to supplements people will go towards, hey, what new supplement can I take? It's like do you track your protein? That's a much bigger rock in terms of calories and body weight trends over time. These are far more important. So don't know if there's anything else you wanted to add there, Eric, otherwise we can wrap up for another monthly episode.
- [67:57]
A
No, yeah. The only thing I would add is just to kind of maybe re emphasize some key points is that if you are considering making some change, whether it's to your training or recovery modality or anything, that is a new piece of information that you've come across from a potential guru and you're doing what Steve and I both used to do when we're younger in our career, that's fine. And then ask yourself, how am I going to assess if this has been beneficial? And then also finally, also recognizing that there's a bit of nuance there too. Some things you won't be able to because the potential benefit is small enough, but maybe still worthwhile, then you need to assess is there any downside? And then the answer should be no, there should be no potential downside. Right. Okay, cool. And then am I really convinced with high quality evidence based information of the best available that this is going to be a reliable potential benefit with no risks, like third party tested creatine. If you're not taking it, it why not? And then you may not notice a difference. You might initially. I think I did notice something in the first months of me taking it, but 2024 was a long. I'm sorry, 2004 was a long time ago, Steve. So I'm not confident in that anecdote. So anyway, if you want to do something like get the blue light blockers, if you want to do something like increase your volume, if you want to do something like get compression garments go for it, but then have some way of then checking back in to go. And I think it did or didn't work. Like, there's a reason I've stopped wearing the blue light blockers and it was because I just didn't see a benefit to my sleep. And there's a reason why I am not trying the compression garments is because I'm not convinced that I will be reliably able to tell that it did a beneficial thing. And there's a reason I'm not doing the sauna. It's because I am not convinced on the level of data that there couldn't be a downside. You know, if it is a stimulus on top of me where I'm already pushing kind of my limits. And then the final thing I will say is that especially for things that are on the stimulus side, like I want to do more, I'm following a, you know, some of the comments I get when people hear about my volume as they go, oh, I tried that. I don't know how you can recover from it and beat the shit out of me. And they go, I'm progressing pretty well on 16 sets, should I do more? And I'm like, no, you're progressing pretty well. And they're surprised by that, right? Or I asked them about the timeframe over which they've tried to do more volume and the timeframe was immediately after I heard a podcast where someone talked about volume being good. And I'm like, no, this is a multi year project. You don't go from academy level strength, conditioning and volumes of training and total amounts of jumps or plyos as an athlete when you're 16, to what someone's doing in Premier League and with their conditioning. And that's why those guys are sometimes using compression garments and cold plunges, is because they've spent 10 years, they're teens through their early 20s, and now they're in their late 20s or even early 30s, still trying to play at the highest level. And they've built up to that. So the idea that you have been habitually training the equivalent of 10 to 15 sets hard, and you heard a podcast on Saturday, so Monday you should be doing 30 sets is bonkers to me. But I get that it's a very normal thing in the fitness industry because they're not seen as a continuous variable and something you adapt to and get the repeated bout effect. They just see it as program A or program B. And B is now what's hot and good. And now I'm afraid that I'M not doing the right thing. So you really have to step outside of that very non critical but common way of thinking that the fitness and health and wellness industries push you towards.
- [72:02]
B
Yeah, so well said. I think if I was to say anything, it would be avoid extremes. Definitely give yourself a chance to acclimatize and yeah, acknowledge the risks. Absolutely. And then see how you're responding in real time and adapt from there. So I'm just sad, Eric, that you're not enjoying the orange spectacles and I got you to spend, I don't know, fifty to a hundred dollars on something that you maybe you need to sell on Facebook, marketplace or gift to someone.
- [72:33]
A
No, here's the thing, Steve. I am going to try them in prep because now the constraints will change and the number of times I have tried something, monitored and seen that it did not pan out is many fold and it will continue to occur and there's no way around that. The number of times I've had hypotheses, tested them and they've failed as a scientist is also like half of my publication record. And that's, that's part of the process. I can't be the guy who does have the things that I do that have helped me get to where I am without trying the things on that have a reasonable hypothesis, some data behind them, a known mechanism, but didn't pan out in my individual situation. So yeah, dude, I think if my schedule was set up to where I'd be getting a lot of brighter light exposure or if I lived, for example, I just got back from Norway, dude, this time of year there's only six hours of dark. I would absolutely be wearing blue light blockers if I lived that far north or further south to where there were times of the year where it's 10pm and I'm still getting light exposure and I want to sleep better 100%. But yeah, you change the constraints, you change the potential benefit and I think that's just part of that not thinking in black and white terms.
- [73:52]
B
Yeah, so well said. And yeah, I guess with your traveling as well, there's probably times at which they can be utilized there. But I love the, the retest, your hypothesis, it just immediately makes me think of I've poo pooed exercises or even ways of executing things and then come back to and be like, actually now I'm, I don't know, more mature. I've got a better my muscle connection with this. I can actually utilize this. So very, very cool. Thank you once again, Eric, for your time. Thank you, dear listeners, for joining the the Stronger Culture. We will continue to get stronger together and we appreciate all your kind words and comments and shares everywhere. Make sure to subscribe. Give us a like thumbs up rating review, five stars of course, and we'll catch you in the next monthly episode. Cheers, guys.