B (5:07)

Well, I have two things to say about this. One, you're never gonna get rid of this fundamental need for control. It's part of the hardwiring and understanding that everybody has. It will also make you understand why the way that you've been dealing with relationships and the world at large is backfiring. And so there's a huge difference between seeking control and actual power. And here's the headline that I've discovered by saying, let them and let me now for two years straight. It's this. If you feel overwhelmed or tired or stressed out or lonely, or you are not achieving the things that you want to achieve, or you're not as happy as you want to be, the problem isn't you. The problem is the power that you're giving to other people. To their thoughts, to their emotions, to their expectations, to their moods. And you don't have to live like that. Your time and energy is the single most valuable resource you have in your life. How you spend your time, what you pour your energy into it, is what your life is. And what I discovered by saying let them and let me. And understanding the difference between control and true power is that I was controlling the wrong thing. I had life reversed. See, I thought I'd be happy if you liked me, Rich. I thought that if I navigated my life based on my kids moods or my husband's moods or my parents expectations, that was the way that I would feel more in control. But here's the joke that we all need to stop to accept and kind of laugh at ourselves and then change how we live our lives. There's one thing you'll never be able to control, and that's another person. And yet we've organized our entire lives around ensuring that other people are happy or that they think a certain thing or they're in a good mood, or that you've met their expectations. And here's what I've learned. When you actually stop giving your power to other people's opinions and to their moods and to their expectations of you, and you take the power back and you say, well, let me focus on what I think about myself. Let me focus on what my values are and what my intention is and let me act in a way that is aligned with that as best as I can and let me actually learn how to respond to my own emotions like a fucking adult. Instead of vent texting at everybody or pouting in the corner or gossiping or bitching or taking it out on other people, Let me be the mature adult here and let me work on this. When you actually put your time and energy there, a funny thing happens.

A (7:41)

All the other stuff takes care of it somehow.

B (7:42)

Oh my God, Rich. Like when you're proud of yourself, you actually don't think much about what other people think. When you are kind of focused every day on just doing little things that make you proud of yourself or that are aligned with the things that you care about, you're not worried about what other people's expectations are. If you screw up and hurt somebody's feelings. It's not like World War three has broken out. You literally just know your intentions so you can take responsibility for the impact it had and apologize, move on. Like, it doesn't become this noose around your neck, and you don't feel this sense that you're responsible for everybody in your life. Like, even last night, yesterday, we had a really long day, and my daughter and I worked together, and we were having dinner, and I kind of snapped at her. And then we got into this little thing, and we were all sitting in a booth, and somebody said, on this side of the booth, just let her be upset with you. What a beautiful thing. Just let my adult daughter have a moment where she's annoyed with me. Why do I have to fix this? I don't. She is allowed to have feelings. She's allowed to be disappointed. She's allowed to be pissed off at me. And if I give her the space to have those feelings, then I'm actually recognizing the power that she has to process her own experience in life, and it immediately starts to disappear. It's unbelievable how we have taken on the responsibility of the world, and in doing so, we've not only burdened ourselves, but and robbed ourselves of time and energy, but we've also robbed other people in our lives, our children, our partners, our parents from the experience of actually facing life and feeling what they need to feel and understanding that, wow, like, nobody needs to step in and rescue somebody, stand by their side and support them. But I also can see that I would rush in and try to solve everything for my kids, which only made their anxiety worse when they were little because every time I stepped in and I wouldn't let. Let them struggle or I wouldn't let them have the uncomfortable feeling when I step in and just try to take it away, I'm actually communicating. I don't actually believe you can handle this, which makes it worse.

A (10:07)

Next up is my friend, the Harvard happiness expert and social scientist Arthur Brooks. It's one thing for you and I to talk about meaning, purpose, and happiness as people who are in our kind of era of crystallized intelligence. And we're, you know, we're looking, we're looking. We're looking backwards at our life and trying to make sense of things. But as somebody who's now kind of directing your focus on younger people, like, what's different about how you talk about these issues with respect to that generation versus ours? So when I'm talking. So the first book that I wrote about this was From Strength to Strength. That's how you and I met. That was the first book that. The first time I came on the show, we talked about that. That made a big assumption, which is you're not perfect in terms of meaning of life, but you have a good concept of it. That's not an assumption I can make with people in their mid-20s. What you find is that the inflection point in generalized anxiety and clinical depression for people in their teens and twenties exactly follows the answer to the question, I feel like my life is meaningless. And it tracks with data showing that when people stopped looking for the meaning of their life. Also, of course, it's contemporaneous with the onset with the sort of the critical mass of people living online. So that's all these things are going together. So when I'm talking about people in crisis in the second half of their life or, you know, burning out or having a midlife crisis, super strivers not knowing what they're going to do, that's a different problem because that's predicated on the idea that you have an underlying sense of life's meaning that you can tap into and live in a different way. I can't make that assumption with people in their 20s today. So I have to go back to first principles. That's why what I'm writing about right now is the meaning of your life and how to find it. What are the big things that you actually need to do to understand about your brain, the practices you need to actually start adopting so that you will open yourself up to questions of meaning and come to some sort of an understanding about it? I think that there's a paralysis that ensues with young people when you throw words around like purpose and meaning. It's sort of like I'm supposed to know my purpose. And so I either feel bad about myself or guilty or less than, or I'm just sort of confused. I don't know what that even means at that stage of life. Yeah, for sure. And so that's why it is so big that for the longest time I would just talk about it in those terms. And it is quite paralyzing. So I'm writing a book about it right now that talks about actually what are the steps to go and find it, which starts off with confronting the fact that there is a problem, understanding neurophysiologically. What the problem is, is talking about the things you need to stop doing in your life and then the practices that you need to actually admit the sources of purpose and meaning in your life. And it's not straightforward because back in the Pleistocene they didn't have these problems and even our grandfathers didn't have this problem because just daily life made it organic. But some of it is, is still pretty straightforward. You know, when I only have 10 minutes with young people, I'll talk about taking a little test, a little two question exam of whether or not you have a crisis in your life and if you do what to go in search of. So two questions. For example, I'll ask my students, or my adult kids for that matter. Why do you believe you're alive and for what would you give your life? Because you find the people who have the greatest tangible sense, understanding of meaning of life, they have a sense of understanding about the why of their life and for what they'd give their life. It's like being alive and not being alive. This is one of the reasons that people who've been in combat roles in the military have such a strong sense of life's meaning because they've had to confront that without ever even asking those questions. For what would you give your life? Well, the Marines, but it's self selecting in some regard, right? Because those are the kind of people that would go into the military. They already have a conviction around that maybe. Although being the father of two Marines, I can tell you that a lot of them, they go into the Marines because they want adventure and they come out having found meaning because they've addressed these particular questions. So when I talk to my students, they're on average 28 years old, they're MBA students at Harvard. I say, one of your projects is going to be to be thinking very, very deeply about your theory about why you're alive, which means how were you created and for what purpose? That means writing a mission statement. And what would you die happily for right now, happily, that's a rough question for anybody, but for a young person, you know, that's, that's a very confronting question. They find it super exciting to take it on. They find it super exciting because they don't have to do it right now. It's like this is the project and they're finally like, oh, I don't have to go find the meaning of my life. I have to try to understand the answers to those questions, which is a lot more tangible than what they've been dealing with. Why am I alive? And so what do I read? I'll read this and read this and read this and talk to this person and start going and start a contemplative practice and you can start doing Stuff to try to get the information that will give you some illumination around the, around at least an understanding of those questions. And that's, that's progress. That's, that feels, that feels less diffuse, it feels less unanswerable. Still, still a steep mountain to climb. Meaning is brutal. I mean, it's like, again, this is the same thing. It's like we can conceive of our death, but we can't conceive of our non existence. Your prefrontal cortex is not ideally designed to confront questions that have understanding but no answers. This is what the contemplative traditions, they'll say to the junior monk. Okay, for the next 40 years, chop wood and carry water while you think about these Cohens. Yeah, because it's not straightforward. This is Rhonda Patrick, health researcher. So, like when we're building up lactate as a result of vigorous exercise, it's passing through the blood brain barrier, it's going into our brains and it's doing all sorts of beneficial things. Like something called neurogenesis. Right. Like. So talk a little bit more in depth about the importance of lactate or the relationship between it and, and the healthy brain that we all are trying to, you know, kind of foster.

B (16:49)

Yeah, I would love to. It's, it's one of the reasons why I really try to engage in a lot of vigorous intensity exercise that I've gotten neurodegenerative disease on both sides of my family. So for me, I'm very brain focused when it comes to exercise. It's, it's, it's one of the main reasons I do exercise. I feel better. But I also know that I'm delaying the aging of my brain and helping prevent neurodegenerative disorders. So lactate, you know, it depends on how. There's a lot of factors at play in terms of how much lactate you're going to make. Right. So how, and how intense you're going to, in terms of your exercise, your mitochondrial function, a lot of individual variability here at play. But generally speaking, you know, when you start to go into that vigorous intensity zone, you know, you can start. Typically our steady state lactate levels are like less than 1 millimolar. And when you get, when you start to go into, you know, 80, 85%, 90% max heart rate, you can get anywhere between 7 to 14 millimolar of, of lactate in your blood strain. And this is, can be measured. You know, you can go out and get tests. I've measured it before for myself. The, the, the lactate levels don't last long in your, in your blood system. And that is because it is being transported and going and taken up by other tissues. So really, as far as I've measured repeatedly, it's about a 20 minute, about 20, 25 minutes and then it goes back to your baseline. So there have been a variety of studies that have shown. By the way, Dr. George Brooks from UC Berkeley was the first to really propose at the time this lactate shuttle theory as he called it. And it's not really a theory anymore, it's been proven time and time again. But he was really the first to, to propose that lactate was being transported into circulation, it was being taken up by a variety of other tissues, notably the brain, and that it was, you know, having beneficial effects in these other organs. So in the brain. So there is a transporter, lactate goes through this, it's called an MCT transporter and it gets into the brain. And there's been a variety of human studies showing that actually during physical activity, lactate is fueling the BR brain because you know, your brain is working hard, your heart is working hard during exercise, your lungs are working hard, your brain is also working hard, right? I mean, you know this as your, as an endurance athlete, your brain is also working hard during exercise. And lactate's fueling that, fueling the brain activity that's been shown. And some of that also has to do with the fact that lactate I, it's increasing brain derived neurotropic factor. So you mentioned that BDNF for short. And that is doing a lot of things. It is helping grow new neurons, particularly in a part of the brain called the hippocampus, which is involved in learning and memory. It's also a part of the brain that atrophies with Alzheimer's disease. So there have been a variety of studies that have shown even older adults that are engaging in moderate intensity activity for about a year can increase the size of their hippocampus by like 2%, which is amazing because typically older adults lose in their, their hippocampus. Hippocampus atrophies with time. So not only were they fighting and staving off the atrophying, but they were also increasing it. So, so that was pretty, I think one of the, one of the big eye opening studies. And this was, this was over 10 years ago. This was like a 2012 study that was published showing this. So the brain derived neurotrophic factor is growing. New neurons can increase the size of the hippocampus but also it's really important for something called neuroplasticity. And that is, it's kind of like you can think about keeping our brains more pliable and malleable and adaptable. So really, neuroplasticity allows our brains to adapt to a changing environment. And this is important for aging, but it's also important for mental health. So, so people with major depressive disorder, for example, they have dysfunction and neuroplasticity. So and then that kind of makes sense, right? If you can't adapt to a changing environment, it's very stressful and can cause anxiety, can be depressing. So there have been a variety of different, you know, researchers that are trying to target neuroplasticity as a treatment for depression. So neuroplasticity not only plays a role in brain aging, but it also plays a role in mental health. And I think that's important to, to point out because I mean, I think, I think almost everyone by now knows that exercise is one of the best things you can do for mental health. Right? I mean, it's like, it's just, you can't deny it, right? I mean, you go out even, just even doing like a 10 minute high intensity workout, you feel better, you know, you feel better.

A (21:22)

How important is the plasticity piece in the mental health conversation? And you know, what, what is the significance of that plasticity increase as a result of vigorous exercise?

B (21:37)

Yeah, it's a good thing that you point out. I think there are a lot of things that are changing with exercise. I mean, endorphins that make you feel good, endocannabinoids that make you feel good. I mean, there's serotonin gets increased, right. So there's a lot of different, I would say short term effects that are potentially responsible for the beneficial elevation in mood that you experience after exercise. With neuroplasticity, I would argue there's more of a long term effect. Right? It's your, your, your, your brain is now able to adapt better to a changing environment and that's going to have a more of a long term consequence. So neuroplasticity is another really important thing that brain derived neurotrophic factor regulates. And again, coming back to the lactate, which is what we were talking about, um, you know, lactate is also it, when I say it's a signaling molecule, it is, it is communicating and activating a lot of different things in the brain. So norepinephrine is another one that's been shown to increase. And norepinephrine is a neurotransmitter that is responsible for focus attention, but also mood. You know, so people are often treated with norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors for anxiety and also depression. So lactate plays a role in increasing that as well. But again, we're just getting down into the nitty gritty of one aspect of exercise. And as you pointed out, there's a whole plethora of changes that occur with exercise that are beneficial, not limited to lactate. I just, I think the lactate story is so important because it really is a proven mechanism, both human and animal studies. It's something that's measurable, you know it. And again, it's something also that we've known is, it links, it links the more high intensity exercise, the more vigorous exercise with, you know, a lot of these beneficial effects on the brain.

A (23:36)

We continue our best of series with psychology professor Lori Santos.

B (23:43)

This is something that culture gets wrong. We talked about culture getting manifesting wrong. I think that's number one thing we get wrong on TikTok, but number two thing we get wrong about happiness on TikTok is this. If you look anywhere on TikTok, it's all about self care. Treat yourself self, self, self. Like you look at the studies of happy people and happy people are not focused on themselves. Happy people are very other oriented. They're doing nice stuff for other people. Right. Controlled for income. Happier people tend to donate more money to charity than not so happy people. Right. It's just these like subtle correlations between doing nice stuff for others and feeling better. But then you have all these experiments where you kind of force participants to do nice stuff for other people. One of my favorite is by Elizabeth Dunn and her colleagues where they walk up to folks on the street, hand them 20 bucks and say, either hey, spend this 20 bucks to do something nice to treat yourself, or hey, spend this 20 bucks to do something nice for somebody else. You could donate it to a homeless shelter, you could buy a friend something nice. It has to go to someone else. When they call people at the end of the day or even at the end of the week, they find that people are happier when they treated someone else rather than when they treated them themselves.

A (24:44)

Right. In giving that money to that other person, if you qualify it, it then becomes a burden for them as opposed to an enriching experience where you felt like, oh, I like, you know, I did something nice for somebody.

B (24:55)

Yeah. And this is a spot where even in my own life, if I'm not careful with it, like there's just like a terrible opportunity cost because like all the money you spend on yourself to feel better, you know, buying yourself a massage or buying yourself that new gadget or buying yourself treating yourself to a nice glass of water, making it worse, well, it's just the same money that you could have spent on someone else. I often joke that every time my brain is like, I'm going to get a manicure, I'm going to do something nice for myself. I'm like, wait, can I give my sister in law a manicure? Can I buy that massage for someone in my workplace? It genuinely is one of these things that even violates my intuitions even saying it now. I'm like, dude, I would like the massage better than my sister in law, whatever.

A (25:34)

But you're cultivating abundance, an abundance concept, right? Instead of lack like you have to hoard it because you're afraid it'll run out or you'll run out.

B (25:43)

And the benefits is like when you do nice things for other people, what you get back in the social connection is huge, right? My producer and co writer for my podcast, Ryan Dilley tells this story of he was walking into a coffee shop and someone was walking out with this cookie they were very excited about and then dropped it on the threshold of the door as they were walking out. It seemed sad. And he ran into the coffee shop and brought this person a cookie and gave them the cookie and the person was really happy. And he's like, months later, I'm still telling that story. Like I don't ever tell the story. At the time I walked into the coffee shop and just got myself the cookie. Like now it's millions of people on your show are hearing it, right? And so these moments of good deeds that we do for others, they percolate. They percolate in our own memory. They percolate in our social conversations. Even just hearing Brian's story, probably all your people have this little boost in happiness that we get and so we forget that our actions and our things we do to feel happy at the moment, some of them live on better than others and the things we do for other people live on in special ways.

A (26:41)

Is there any science to establish? I want to call it a placebo effect, but it's not quite that. What I'm getting at is the intention behind it. Like, does it matter if you give of yourself from a place of open heartedness and generosity or you're doing it selfishly because Lori Santos said you want.

B (27:07)

The happiness to do this?

A (27:08)

It makes me happy. And I know Just based on my anecdotal personal experience that it actually doesn't matter. Like, if I just, even if I don't want to do the thing, I know that it will make me happier. And so to be selfless from a selfish person back to perspective, it still ends up creating a shift.

B (27:32)

Yeah, and I think that's true for all the, like, we get the benefit from the behavior in a lot of the cases. I think again, with all these things, there's a little bit of nuance. Lara Acknen has this work that if you feel forced to do nice things for others, like, you don't have any choice, you don't have any agency in it. That can be not good. This is one of the reasons we see things like caregiver burnout and so on. Like, you have no choice. You have to be doing these nice things. That's not great. But if you come at it from like, all right, I don't really feel like doing this behavior. I'll try it. It kind of works. And that's. Look, that's true in all these domains. I respect so many people that get the wonderful emotional hit that have the craving for working out. I never have that. It's always a slog for me. I've hoped that doing it more and more, I'll get into it. Never is. But every time I do it, when I'm done, I'm like, oh, that was great. Why did I hate doing that? What's my problem? And I think the same thing can be true for doing nice things for others. For me, that's also true for talking to people. I know that talking to strangers from all my studies again, I can like tell you the journal article name, right. That it makes you happier. But I'm just like, don't really feel like talking to people. But then inevitably when I do it, I'm like, okay, I should really do it. I wind up feeling better. Even on the plane over here today, I was sitting next to someone who kind of plopped down and this individual, sort of disabled and like, had a tough time getting in and was sort of seemingly sort of frustrated. And I had this moment of like, all I want to do is look at my phone and check my email. That's all my craving and motivation is telling me to do. But I know happiness wise, I should, like, try to brighten this person's day. And so I did it and we had a little chat and then I felt a little bit brighter, you know, the first 10 minutes into the flight and feel like I made, you know, his version of that flight a little bit better than if I was just kind of on my own.

A (29:14)

We'll be back in a flash, but first a quick break. We're brought to you today by Prolon. It is pretty clear at this point based upon established and newly emerging evidence based science that periodic fasting holds an important place in tending to our health as well as extending longevity. That said, there are just so many different kinds of fasting out there and admittedly it all kind of comes across as pretty extreme. This is but, but one reason why I appreciate the work of my friend and repeat friend of the pod, Dr. Valter Longo. As director of USC's Longevity Institute, Valter is the world's leading expert on fasting and the man behind Prolon and the fasting Mimicking diet, which is basically this periodic five day nutrition protocol in which you're provided with delicious plant based foods, things like soups, snacks and beverages that you're permitted to eat that also at the same time trigger the cellular rejuvenation produced by a completely fasted state. Prolon's new next gen program features 100% organic soups and teas with richer taste and ready to eat convenience. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, it's shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health and energy. Prolon triggers autophagy, the Nobel Prize winning cellular repair process. It's the first and only patented nutritional program to support longevity through cellular rejuvenation. So if you're considering a fasting protocol, this one is backed by real research and for a limited time, Prolon is offering all of you guys, my listeners, 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five day program, just visit prolonlife.com richroll that's P-R-O-L-O-N L I F E.com rich roll to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife.com rich roll we live in this insane self improvement, industrial complex culture that just never lets up. Optimize your parenting level, up your relationships up, level your morning routine, perform better at work no matter what. There's always another metric, always another benchmark to judge yourself against. And quite honestly, it's a lot. So when that feeling of overwhelm or inadequacy hits me when I need to hit pause and reset. Calm is a tool that I reach for to release stress and find space to breathe even on the busiest days. I've been using calm for years. And what makes it work for me is that it's not just another thing that's demanding perfection. It's just something that's there. A breathing exercise, an expert talk to shift my perspective or something. Something to just help quiet my mind a little bit at night so I can let go of the day and rest. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, and it's here to help you feel better. Guided meditations for anxiety and stress, sleep stories for restful sleep, grounding exercises for when you're feeling overwhelmed, and expert LED talks. Calm app puts the tools you need right in your pocket. And rightnow, Calm has an exclusive offer just for listeners of our show. Get 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com richroll Go to C-A-L-M.com richroll For 40% off, unlimited access to Calm's entire library. Calm.com richroll. There's this thing that happens in the supplement space where the second something goes mainstream, the market gets flooded and quality tanks. Creatine sort of going through this right now. Everyone finally gets that it's not just for gym bros. It's for brain health and recovery and longevity. But now you've got all these brands pumping out gummy versions that are essentially just candy. Momentous took a different approach, which is one of the reasons why I love them and why I partner with them. They spent years, not months, years refusing to release a chewable until they could do it without compromising. And the result of this is momentous creatine chews, which meets what they call the momentous standard. The same standard, I might add, trusted by Olympians and pro teams. Each chew delivers one gram of pure creapure creatine monohydrate, single source from Germany, NSF certified for sport, of course.

B (34:10)

Course.

A (34:10)

And without any weird artificial stuff. Now, you can keep them anywhere, which removes all the friction that comes with powders and shakers. So head over to livemomentous.com and use code RICH ROLL for up to 35% off your first order. Okay, let's get back to the show with a clip from Harvard psychologist Ellen Langer. I think that we just make things.

B (34:42)

Very complicated for ourselves. And, you know, then you get older and it all becomes easier again.

A (34:49)

All the things you worried about seem so silly.

B (34:54)

You know, I wrote this thing a while ago.

A (34:56)

You're two years old and you fall and you scrape your leg and you're screaming bloody murders. If the world's gonna end, you're seven years old. Johnny or Janie doesn't send You a.

B (35:07)

Valentine, and oh my God, the world's gon to end. You're 13, you have a pimple. Oh my God, I'm never going to look good. You're 18 and it just goes on.

A (35:18)

At some point you look back on all of it and say how stupid it all was. And the culture allows it in some sense, almost promotes it.

B (35:28)

I'm not sure why, but at the end of it, there's always somebody who's profiting.

A (35:35)

Meanwhile, yeah, you look back on it and say, how silly. But at the same time, the fact that you, like, didn't get that valentine when you were in seventh grade or whatever creates some neural pathway in your brain that 30 years later you're still acting out on as a result because it's some form of trauma that remained unhealed.

B (35:56)

Yeah, but to recognize that other people's responses to us are a function of their needs.

A (36:04)

They say nothing about us.

B (36:07)

You know, every compliment you give me is not really about me.

A (36:14)

It's more about you. Every insult, my need for you to like me.

B (36:18)

Yeah, every insult.

A (36:19)

And so on.

B (36:20)

And if we were brought up to.

A (36:22)

Understand those things, even a 7 year old can understand them if they're spoken in kiddies.

B (36:29)

Then Johnny doesn't give you the valentine.

A (36:33)

So Johnny didn't give you valentine.

B (36:35)

It doesn't have to. You know, you go from that, you didn't get the valentine, therefore nobody likes.

A (36:41)

You, therefore your life is going to be a failure. It's silly, right? I mean, how do we communicate these things to the children? Somebody says, how many valentines did you get, Mary?

B (36:51)

And you got more than Susie, so therefore you're a better person.

A (36:56)

Where as soon as you say, yeah, but I've got the valentines from the most important people. It's all crazy. It's crazy. It's all crazy.

B (37:04)

You know, I talked to you about how that pancreas story, you know, that I still can't.

A (37:13)

This was a story where I'm not.

B (37:16)

Going to eat the pancreas, but I feel I have to eat it because.

A (37:19)

Now I'm a married woman at this very young age. And I still can't figure out why I thought that, that there's so many.

B (37:28)

Things that are communicated to us.

A (37:30)

You know, if you're sophisticated, these are all the things that you'll do.

B (37:35)

And we go back and people I.

A (37:37)

Don'T know, it's become my new mantra who says so? And when you recognize the three levels.

B (37:45)

That I talked about, where level one.

A (37:48)

And three look the same but they're very different. Level one, two, three, thinking maybe experience explain that.

B (37:53)

Yeah, well, you know, the easiest example.

A (37:56)

I keep using the New Yorker. It's a wonderful magazine. And this example doesn't shine, but so be it.

B (38:02)

Level one, we have people who don't.

A (38:04)

Read the New Yorker.

B (38:05)

Level two, people who read the New Yorker.

A (38:07)

Level three, people who don't read the New Yorker anymore. Level one and three look the same.

B (38:12)

But they're very different people. You can have them read it again.

A (38:15)

But that makes the story too complicated.

B (38:18)

You know, you have a young kid is uninhibited.

A (38:22)

The rest of the world is inhibited.

B (38:25)

And then you get to a certain point where you say, who gives a damn? You know, and you become disinhibited. But when they accuse the older person.

A (38:33)

Of being like a child, they're not.

B (38:35)

They're very different.

A (38:36)

The child doesn't know the rule.

B (38:39)

The older person knows the rule and.

A (38:41)

Thinks it's silly, you know, And I remember, Ken, this is so silly.

B (38:48)

But if I had gotten spilled something on my shirt, you know, I'd be.

A (38:54)

Walking around like this, you know, so.

B (38:56)

Nobody would see it without realizing how.

A (38:58)

Ridiculous this itself looks.

B (39:01)

As if every moment is. This is going to describe who we are for a lifetime.

A (39:07)

That people won't realize. Yes, you could have dirt on yourself one minute. Doesn't mean that's the way you wear your clothes.

B (39:13)

You're wearing two different shoes. Doesn't mean you don't know that there'll.

A (39:20)

Be a different response to wearing the same shoe.

B (39:25)

Everybody worrying so about what other people.

A (39:28)

Think, and everybody knows they themselves don't know.

B (39:33)

And the joke is thinking that other people do know.

A (39:37)

And so you're always guessing at what's.

B (39:39)

The right thing to do. And I'm here to inform people, nobody knows and nobody can know because everything is changing. Everything looks different from different perspectives. And it's okay not to know because there are other things you do know.

A (39:58)

Next up is world champion mountain biker Kate Courtney. So what do you say to the person who's looking for something to go all in on but doesn't quite know what that is?

B (40:10)

It's a really good question. I think it's about listening to that curiosity and excitement. And I think you just follow it. You just follow the little breadcrumbs of that feeling and be willing to take a little risk when you need to to find out what you're capable of.

A (40:35)

It can't be manufactured and it can't be faked. Right. But you also can't just wait to Be struck with it. Like, I think those things are revealed through doing things. And to your point, like, being willing to explore your curiosities. And I think the modern world has a way of, like, eroding our relationship with our own curiosity because we're told we need to do these things or this is what success looks like or the path that you should be on. And curiosities are an indulgence or something that we kind of, like, repress or quash rather than kind of move towards.

B (41:15)

It feels like there's a lot of focus on what we get out of things right now, which is important. I mean, I would not be sitting here if things hadn't. If the pendulum of luck hadn't kind of swung in the right direction at certain races in my career. Right. So I'm not saying that accomplishments and what you get out of things doesn't matter at all. Like, I live in reality, but I find that a better compass is what you can give to things. And I'll tell you a little story and this now I've related everything back to the Olympics, which, you know, I guess these pivotal moments, they really make an impact and you learn from them. But I always thought, like, from when I was a little kid, that if I went to Olympics, I'd go get the Olympic tattoo. Right? That's like the sexy focus thing. So I go, I don't have this great experience. I obviously do not get the tattoo.

A (42:07)

You don't want to look at it and be reminded of completely. Yeah.

B (42:11)

And then I don't make the Paris team, which we didn't really get to. But, yeah, I was ranked, you know, 10th in the world and actually had a really good season. But the other two Americans were top three at the first two World Cups, and they just absolutely crushed it, and they earned those spots. And so I'm, like, sitting at home. And during this period, I went and visited my brother, and we ended up going and we got matching tattoos. And I'll tell you what we got. It's very small. You don't know where it is, but it's. It's on my ribs. And I ended up getting the words give him hell tattooed on my ribs. And there's a good story as to why. So my grandpa, growing up, every time I did anything in my life, he would tell me, give him hell. And that was his, like, mantra to us, was just like, give everything you've got in what you do. And he sent me videos before a bunch of hard races where he said that message, and it really Impacted me because it's about being willing to meet yourself in every moment and give what you've got. And I think, you know, early on, maybe the Olympics, maybe pursuing racing was about getting the flashy tattoo and having the accomplishment and being able to say, like, here, look what I did, and here's what I got for it. But I think for me now, the question I ask is, like, what can I give? And how far am I willing to go to exhaust that potential and to give everything I have while I still have the opportunity to give it?

A (43:53)

It's service. It's like, what am I giving? Not what am I extracting from this.

B (43:59)

Yeah. And I think when you're looking for what will fill your cup and what will be a worthy pursuit over a long period of time, I think it's a lot about what. What thing are you doing where you're giving everything and in that moment, you're enjoying it. Right. Like, the deep engagement with the activity, whether it's, like, giving back to the community, whether it's giving everything in an interval on your bike, like, where that act is so illuminating that at the end you have gotten something.

A (44:35)

Yeah.

B (44:35)

It's a byproduct.

A (44:36)

It's also, you know, kind of this weird thing again where you might trip yourself up because it's like, give them hell. Like, give it. Give it everything you've got. Like, that pushes all the buttons of the, like, you know, I'm gonna over train and I'm gonna, like, you know, live in a cabin and be like, if. If I'm going to give him hell, then here's what I need in order to do that. But you're coming at this, like, more mature, more expansive. To give it all you've got requires that holistic piece where you are making room for going on bike rides with all of these women and girls that you're trying to get into the sport and you're working with these brains. Your life is much bigger now. Giving it all you've got means serving all of these different things, all of these value buckets that, you know, allow you to sustain your athletic career but give your life meaning. This is psychologist and researcher Ethan Cross. Where my head is going at this moment is thinking, like, I'm trying to put myself in that state of distress, and I know myself well enough to know that, like, when I'm in the midst of, like, a negative emotional experience, it's more difficult to grasp for the solution. Like, there's something that, as uncomfortable as it is, you're resistant to Changing it like it is doing something for you, like on some unconscious level, you're choosing it in an adaptive way. I suppose that makes me resistant to like reach out for help or to find a way out of it. Like I'm more likely to like indulge it well. And if you find that that approach is serving you well, that is, I mean it's not. Well, well, then I think I. If that's not serving you well, having the foresight to recognize actually this intuition, I have to lean into this emotion even further. It is not going to help me rehearsing that ahead of time. And we can go over how to do that because actually the penultimate chapter of my book is all about how you go from knowing to doing right. How when you find yourself in the midst of the storm, can you be reminded that your default tendencies may not be adaptive. Let's plug in some of these shifters, we'll talk about how you could do that. But if, you know, I think recognizing that sometimes our instincts don't serve us well, I mean, worry is a great example of this, right? So worry, this was the topic of my first book. A lot of people worry because they think it's going to help them. There's something that feels really secure about worrying, right? Because look, this is a really important thing. So let me try to figure out every possible angle on this. Like, your brain is an unbelievable supercomputer. Your ability to come up with an infinite number of what if worst case scenarios. This is remarkable. At a certain point it's useful until it ceases to be useful. Typically I think the ceases to be useful happens like three minutes into the worry bout rather than three days or, or three weeks or three months. So recognizing that this temptation you have to lean into, this is not serving you well and giving yourself the permission to do a little experiment, just give yourself like the next time you find yourself really wanting to indulge in the sadness or the anxiety, let's try something else and see how that works out. And try some of those shifters. That is something I would invite you and everyone else listening to. Dr. Again, myself too. Like I've sometimes had to like, I love approaching problems right when they happen. I'm not dispositionally avoidant when something happens. I like to deal with it, nip it in the bud, move on. Very tactical. I have learned that sometimes that does not work well, in particular in an interpersonal context. Sometimes if I'm in an argument with someone else, they need some time to recalibrate before we can productively deal with the situation at hand. I have to force myself. All right, Ethan, you're going to distract for a while. And I lean into, work hard for like several hours or several days even. And that really serves me well.

B (49:15)

And I'll tell you what, now that.

A (49:17)

I've benefited from that, it has broken the previous automatic response pattern that was not serving me well. Yeah. What's interesting about that predisposition to problem solve, like, I would imagine your inner monologue is like, this is a positive quality. Like, when I see a problem, I solve it right away. But if you're curious about why that is, perhaps you may find a deep discomfort with uncertainty. You know, it's like, what's driving behavior. Right. And that uncertainty is so uncomfortable that it has to be eradicated. And the best way to eradicate it is to just solve the problem. Right. Well, as opposed to what does it feel like to sit in that uncertainty instead? Or you could sit in the uncertainty. That's one thing you can do. You can also productively distract from the uncertainty and let time temper the emotional response linked with whatever is driving the uncertainty and see what that does for you. Or you can talk to someone else. You got to be careful who you talk to to help you reframe the uncertainty. Or you can lean on your culture for support, and if you believe in a higher power or are spiritual, activate some of those resources. There are lots of things you can do to deal with that experience. And one of those things, or two or three, may be far more productive than the default, which is to just try to kind of hammer it away with the worries. We continue with longevity scientist Valter Longo. What's interesting about your work is that, and maybe what's somewhat unusual about you as somebody who is a research scientist, is that you are thinking about how you balance your discoveries around efficaciousness with sustainability and adherence in the general population. It's one thing to look under a microscope, have a discovery, and extrapolate from that into some sort of principle, but how can that be translated into something that the average person can take and use, sustain, that will benefit them over time? Yes. And I think that we want to take it all the way to disease cures, not just treatment cures. Right. So now, for example, with diabetes, we now have three or four trials, all of them showing a 50 to 70% regression of the disease. And then on the FMD. On the FMD, just once a month without changing their diet. And that's a very important thing. Right. So we don't change our diet, we don't change our lifestyle. And we're saying, so, you know, for thousands of years people have been talking about food as medicine, Right. But then really never happened. Right. So that's what we're trying to do. Say, can we standardize this vegan based medicine and then use it to in some cases even cure diseases? And so diabetes, I think is definitely one of the ones where we were very confident. And so University of Leiden or the University of Heidelberg did the first trial a couple years ago. It showed impressive, impressive effects on A1C, but also on reduction of drug use. And then Laden repeated and got the same results. And so I think, yes, this is feasible ways to bring people back to a functional state, from a disease state to a functional state. And I think that a lot of that has to do with molecular mechanisms that are much more sophisticated than people may imagine. So for example, we just published in collaboration with Laura Perrin at Children's Hospital, we published on the use of the FMD in rats with kidney damage and then in people with kidney disease. Right. But in people, of course, we don't get to see what happens, but in rats we get to see what happens. And it's really remarkable. So we damaged the kidney and you see a complete disruption of the gene expression. So our genes are turned on and off in the different cells of the kidney. And then we start the fasting, mimicking diet. And you see that. So there is a very precise architecture, let's say, right, three dimensional, and that is completely destroyed by this toxin that we give the rats. Right? Then we start the fasting, mimicking diet cycles. And you see everything going back to where it was, almost like a magic intervention. So it's not really the fasting mimicking diet that is doing anything, right? It is the rat that always. And people are the same, that always had programs that are able to be triggered by fasting to turn on regenerative and developmental like programs. So the same genes that are used when the kidneys are first generated in a baby, like pluripotent stem cell generation, Is that what you're talking about? Yes, yes. So the cells are being reprogrammed into some of these reprogramming factors, Yamanaka factors, also known as Yamanaka factors, are turned on and you see that every organ is turning on different ones. Right. So in some cases you see October four being turned on. In some cases you see myc. So different organs use different ones, but they all have the same thing in common. They turn on these many genes that are involved in cellular, in organ generation. And then that's how they can go from this very disrupted state back to the previous healthy states. So they know exactly what to turn on to fix the problem. So then that's the power of these fasting, migraine diets, so turning on the ability of the body to fix itself. And so now, you know, diabetes, we're seeing it, we're seeing now with kidney disease, we are now seeing it with, I mean, at least this is in humans and animals, but for some other like gut, we are clearly seeing it in animal studies. And now there are many a number of trials that will test it in clinical trials Here. We've got a lot more to come, but first, a quick break. Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing. Without a real solution for athletes, I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run. Constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense. Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me. Approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first. But not at the cost of fashion. 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But did you know that Rivians actually improve over time through software updates, through regular over the air updates, the technology keeps evolving. New features, improved performance, additional safety features. So your vehicle actually becomes becomes more capable the longer you own IT and knowing RJ Rivian CEO, I can tell you firsthand that this is a guy who is not into tech for tech's sake. Every feature is designed for actual real world situations like pet comfort, maintaining cabin temperature so your dog stays comfortable if you need to step away briefly, adaptive lighting that responds to the environment, environment plus warning systems and highway assist that monitor the road alongside you, making the driving experience safer and more enjoyable. I'm so proud to partner with Rivian. They're just the best. Everything you want out of a vehicle, of course, but also because of their ethos, which is making the world a better place, providing what you need to make the most of life's adventures and using technology to do it so you're prepared for whatever comes next and have everything you need for every adventure you can imagine. Okay, let's get back to the show with a clip from personal development expert and best selling author Mark Manson. We're in like this guru sphere, right? Particularly in the self help world where there are outsized personalities out there who are commandeering like very large audiences and a significant mind share amongst a vast population of people who are probably genuinely looking for good advice and guidance at some period in their life in which they need it. But back to kind of what YouTube and the Internet rewards it rewards hot takes, contrarianism, heterodox thinking, certainty, conviction, charisma, all of these things. None of which necessarily are related to truth, veracity and good advice. So you, as somebody who I know, thinks about how do I provide good advice and do it with integrity? You're out there not competing, but you're, you're in a world in which those other people are out there for better or worse, who are motivated not by values necessarily, but more and more by metrics like growth. And with growth that means platforming people who might be not the best people to platform under the rubric of just asking questions and all of that kind of thing. Let me tell you what they don't want you to know and, and everything you've ever been told is a lie. And this is what works, right? I don't know if it's a willful blindness or a lack of self awareness or maybe just I don't give a fuck, it doesn't matter as long as I'm growing and more and more people are paying attention to me. Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this because I think it's good for the world. Actually. Let me start with a caveat and then I'll go into my mixed feelings. So the caveat of all of this is I want to say that as this is simultaneously happening, the guru sphere, as you put it, I really like that word is exploding. Right. Self help is bigger than it's ever been. It's become mainstream, essentially. There is an unprecedented wealth of genuinely good mental health and physical health information that's become available in the last 10, 15 years that was never available in all of human history. There's probably been more good advice shared on the Internet in the past 15 years than the rest of human history combined. So that's mixed in with all this stuff. And it's often very, very frustrating as a consumer to parse the good from the bad. Even people who by and large have ridiculous positions and beliefs about most things will occasionally share a really good piece of information. So it's like there's a mental struggle of sifting through all the information out there. So I want to put that on the table first. And then that relates to my mixed feelings in the following way, which is, ultimately, I feel like it's a good thing to let two opposing narratives into the public sphere and let them kind of combat each other, because a lot of times the conventional narrative does end up being full. I mean, how much nutritional information over the past 20 years that was conventional turned up to be absolutely terrible and horrible for people a decade later? Right. So it's like the conventional wisdom does get overturned frequently. And so you do want it to be free and available for people to attack and combat and offer alternative theories and. Yeah. Even if occasionally they're harebrained. Sure, whatever. That I think is fine. And I do think it does cause a lot of stress and strife among the population and among consumers. It makes our lives a little bit more complicated as it puts more responsibility on us to figure out what we're consuming and whether it's good or not. What I do worry about is, to your point, the over indexing of Crazy Town, let's call it. I've kind of come to, just as somebody who's observed online media my entire adult life and tried to really kind of track it and understand why certain audiences behave certain ways, I've kind of come to the conclusion that perhaps the most chronically online population in the world are the Crazy Town conspiracy theory people. They're more engaged, they're more vocal. If they like you, they'll watch everything, they'll like everything, they'll comment on everything. And so I think as creators, I think there are a lot of people in our industry who they'll dip their toe in that pool in the crazy town pool. And they'll get that flood of engagement. And that feels good. It's like, especially, I mean, when you've been, say, grinding through 20 episodes and you're at this plateau and like nothing's really popping off or performing well and you're like, man, what am I? What are we doing wrong? Like, what could I be doing better? And all of a sudden one just like shoots off like a rocket and like, man, I should do more of that. Next up is the iconic Maria Shriver.

B (64:28)

What am I here to do? And how do you drown all of that out? I don't think you need to get hit by a two by four. I don't think you need necessarily to hit rock bottom. Whether it's in aa, na, you name it, or whether it is to get divorced or get fired from a job. There's all kinds of heartbreak, I think, going on all the time. But I think the key is stopping in this society, stopping and allowing yourself to sit in silence and have that conversation with yourself and report on what's going on within. So I think that that's possible for everybody. I wouldn't advocate hitting rock bottom. I wouldn't advocate ending up on a floor looking at your marriage and going, now what? But sometimes that's what it takes. But I think we're seeing breakdowns in small ways all over the place today. And therefore that's why I'm hoping that whether it's writing or your friend, you were saying that he's democratizing poetry and telling everybody that they can write. And people feel a huge release when they write, even if they don't think of themselves as writers. Some people write with their opposite hand, their non dominant hand, and see what comes out there. I'm just a big believer that that can help you find your way forward when you feel in crisis, when you feel stuck, when you don't know the way forward.

A (66:02)

Yeah, it feel indulgent, but it's actually, you know, positive self care to do that. And for somebody.

B (66:10)

Is it so indulgent to write?

A (66:11)

Well, I think to stop and pause and carve out quiet time for yourself, especially if you're somebody who does feel like you're always behind in terms of like living up to other people's expectations of you.

B (66:24)

That's the time to do it.

A (66:25)

I know. It's like the time to do it is when you feel the least compelled to do it.

B (66:30)

Right?

A (66:30)

Like it feels like that is a luxury that I cannot afford. But you need that pattern interrupt. Otherwise you're going to continue to just reap what you've always sown, right?

B (66:40)

But it can be. You can start with five minutes, you can start with 10 minutes, you can start with 15. I'm not saying you have to be thorough and go to Walden Pond, or you have to go off onto a silent retreat or go on to a retreat or, you know, do what Jesus did and go away for 40 days. But if you look at history, if you look at people who've actually been able to gather their thoughts before social media, they went away and kind of took time to be in silence to gather their thoughts. Things I've read about Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, they still go away and find time to like, what am I thinking? Where am I going? What is my purpose? How do I want to change up what I'm doing? That's a conversation that everybody needs to have with themselves. So if you're having it in the bathroom in your closet. I've talked to some women who have two kids, and they say they get up 20 minutes early and they go in the bathroom, lock the door, and just try to figure out, what do I think?

A (67:38)

Where am I going?

B (67:39)

What do I want to do? So I think if you start. I have a poem there. Start where you are and start with what you have, which might be five minutes, might be 10 minutes. Just that kind of thing can lead. It can begin to design your path.

A (67:55)

I think when you talk about things like purpose or meaning, like, what is my purpose? That's intimidating for a lot of people. Or perhaps even violent, like, oh, I should feel bad about myself because I don't know what my purpose is. And these poems that you've written are really just demonstrating what it means to look inward and try to make sense of the complicated emotions that we all have. And those bigger, grander ideas kind of emerge from that as a practice.

B (68:24)

Yes. I mean, I think purpose is different for everybody. And I find so many people come up to me, young people especially, you know, friends of my kids, and like, I'm looking for my purpose. It's like, your purpose isn't hiding behind a tree. Right? It's not. But just kind of doing something you love. Your purpose is you're here. I'm a big believer in that. And we all. And it changes as we move forward in life. But these poems are really about an excavation of one's childhood, of one's feelings, of one's longing, of one's love. And my purpose has changed. My purpose now is to share this, to share the Kind of art of poetry, the democratization of poetry. Reflecting in. It's different than it was when I was in my 20s. And that that can evolve. All my work has kind of brought me to this place in a funny way, where I never thought I would be. I think young people often feel like I need a purpose. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I think just to take some of the. It's okay, you know, you're okay. You're doing great. You're enough.

A (69:40)

This is writer and artist Craig Maude. Going out to Silicon Valley was sort of, I'd say, probably one of the most pivotal moments of my adult life. So I moved to old Palo Alto, and my two roommates were these Stanford D school guys. And these guys were just the freaking huggiest guys in the world. And every day I'm just being smothered by these hugs. And they were so positive. They were vegetarians. There was no drugs, alcohol. They didn't drink. And I went from this place of everyone's getting blasted, blacking out. Alcohol is part and parcel of everything. Every meal is just meat. Japan loves meat. It's just beef everywhere. To moving into this house where these guys are just hugging me constantly. There's no meat, there's no alcohol. And they come from clearly a place of abundance. These two guys. You just felt behind them were generations of love that had manifested these two human beings. And so that was all just part of this. How do I give myself again? Not having a mentor, not having an archetype, not having someone older to lead the way. How do I give myself a greater sense of self worth? And in doing that, the alcohol fell away pretty naturally. And I'd say It was about 31 when I was finally able to really kind of say goodbye for good. Put it completely in the rear view. Yeah, those guys that your housemates seem on some level to exhibit something that you talk about in the book, which for me, one of the biggest, most impactful things that I took away from reading your book is this idea I'd never heard of before called yo yu. Is that how you say it? Is that how you pronounce it? Yo yu. Yo yu. I want to hear more about this because I think this is a really cool and profound idea. Yeah. So yo yu in Japanese is. In English, it could kind of be empathy, but it's deeper than empathy. And in Japanese, the way I've come to understand it is it's having the space in your heart to accept someone else, to have space in your heart for someone else. An Abundance of space in your heart and your life to be able to accept hardship, to be able to respond to hardship. And that's, I think, what I felt fundamentally when I moved there, is that having these systems on a greater level, supporting people, imbued. Everyone I saw on the street, everyone I was passing with this, a little bit of yo yu and more people have more yo yu and less yo yu than others. But there is this sense of space in the heart. In the west, abundance is something we're seeking. And when we get it, we. We reward ourselves by trying to get more of it and hoarding it. It's sort of an energetic thing. Your relationship with this energy is such that should you be lucky enough to have it. Yeah, it's best, it's best deployed, you know, outward in service of other people. And when you have a lot like, then you have more to give. And it's your responsibility to give that right. And in doing that, you engender empathy. It allows you to forgive more easily. Like it, it, it opens up space to your point for these other emotions that we tend to like, kind of clamp down on or, you know, we hoard those too. Like, I'm not going to forgive you until this or that. We're very conditional about these things. Yeah. And I think being around people with yo yu and realizing I grew up in a place with no yo yo where everyone was economically kind of pushed against the wall. And in terms of what are our opportunities? Well, there aren't any. And so when you're in a situation like that where you can fall, when you see how far you can fall. I think this is another thing about the American condition that's a little bit scary, is when you see how far you can fall and you can fall to hell, beyond hell in America, there just aren't those safety nets to catch you. When you see how far you can fall, it's really hard to feel a sense of abundance that you can give to other people. And so in Japan, because of all these structures and these social struct and like, you can only fall, oh, I can see how far I can fall. It's not that far. It's not that scary for me to help this other person out. I think just being around that and feeling that and then being on these big solo walks that I've been doing now for six, seven years, it was in that, and I write about this in the book, you know, I was able to. I'm able to laugh about who my father was. I was able to find this crazy sense of forgiveness for this guy that I didn't know was possible. I didn't know I was capable of. And, you know, feeling that, experiencing that is again, again, we're getting back to self worth ratcheting. And I think having a sense of yo yo feeling that yo yo being able to deploy it in a way that's positive, that elevates people again, that just helps you feel like you have more value as a human, too. It's like it's mutually beneficial. We continue with actor and podcaster Ethan Suplee with all the rubber banding. And then now in this stable situation that you're in right now, I mean, we could talk all day about, like, what worked and what didn't. I'm less interested in the details of that. It's all very personal, personalized, individualized. But from those experiences of succeeding and failing and rubber banding and relapsing and back and forth and, you know, now it's cycling, now it's the gym. I mean, you have compiled like an encyclopedia of principles around transformation and change. Yeah. So if you had to write a book and it had like, you know, 10 chapters, like, you know, each one being one of these principles, like, what rises to the top in your mind as the most important factors for somebody who is contemplating making a change. Having a plan for the day and then preparing for the plan to go out the window once you meet reality, and having another plan and having as many plans as you can consider, and then having a plan for when all of the plans fail and kind of, you know, getting through the day is the most important thing. Realizing that the weight isn't the issue at all, that the weight is a byproduct or a symptom of the issue. That it will look if you need to lose 10 pounds that you put on during COVID or, you know, you twisted your ankle and were laid up for a few months or something like that, then none of this applies to you. But if you've been overweight your whole life, there's likely not going to be an intervention that you apply that. Then when you're done, you don't have to keep applying to some degree. My big fear now, like, I'm a fan of the GLP1s for the morbidly obese. I'm also glad that I achieved this prior to their advent, but my fear with them is that people are going to use them like fad diets, and that what we'll see long term is a version of what I did in Those years, which was find something that takes weight off really quick. You're losing muscle mass and fat. And by the way, any diet, any extreme diet, you're losing, losing muscle mass and fat. Doesn't matter if it's keto and you're eating a bunch of meat. If you're losing a pound a day, some portion of that is lean tissue. But you get on them for three months, you lose 30 pounds, you get off them, you gain the 30 pounds back, you. 40% of what you lost is muscle and a hundred percent of what you gain back is fat. And so we could see over a long period of time, people's weight stay static, if not rise a little bit, but their body fat percentage skyrocket. And that worries me because there is no consideration to anything but that the weight is the problem, not a byproduct or a symptom of the problem. Also, you're missing the whole piece around developing discipline and a connection with your body and your mind. Like, you have extraordinary discipline and you've done the inside work to untangle those knots and understand why you tick the way that you tick. And if you just inject yourself with something like they're appropriate for people who are, I mean, it's like obesity, Obesity is driving all these chronic lifestyle ailments. Like you have to, if the house is on fire, you got to deal with that first. So I'm not against this in any way, but in terms of what you had to learn about yourself and the way your mind and your body works by going through this process has placed you in this sort of sensei position, you know what I mean? Like you've done the work and so what you have to say about this, like matters versus somebody who, you know, took a different route to it. It's such a tricky thing because I've, I'm trying to be as open and honest as possible, but there is a team out there that is, these are life saving drugs and if you say anything bad about them, you're killing people. And then there's another team that is, these are going to result in killing people. You can't say anything good about them. There's such a lack of nuance. I don't know if it's as big today, but there was a whole thing about keto and sugar is killing it and carbohydrates are killing everybody. Well, we just cycle through this by the season, right? Nuance is lost. Next up, we're going to talk consciousness with authority. Annika Harris.

B (79:46)

What I've come to believe is that we don't yet understand consciousness at all. And this is a legitimate question to ask, period. We don't. One thing I don't like about panpsychism is it implies that there's some fully formed set of beliefs for us to subscribe to. And I don't. There, there is not yet a theory. There's, you know, there are many suggestions, but we really don't know. And so I think part of the reason why scientists have also been receptive to this is because I'm simply asking the question. I'm simply making the case that we've gotten to the point where we can say this is a legitimate and important scientific question to be asking. Is consciousness more fundamental than the scientists have previously assumed? As far as your description of consciousness being fundamental and what that means about matter, I wouldn't say that matter emerges out of consciousness. And one thing I should also say is that in my thinking and in my 11 hour docu series, you can kind of follow my thinking around this, where the evolution of my thinking, you know, changes. And so by the end of the documentary, I get to the place where what I realize is the hard problem of consciousness, which is the thing I'm trying to address, you bump into that wherever you try to place consciousness, no matter how far now, if you put it in electrons, if you put it, and panpsychism does a little bit of this, the only way to actually address the hard problem is to put consciousness at the very, at the most fundamental level. And so if that's the case, and that's a big if, I don't know. But if this is something that I like to entertain now and to think about, and to think about how all of these different theories about quantum gravity and all the rest, I talked to Lee Smolin and Carlo Rovelli about their views. I like to now think of this all through the lens of if consciousness is fundamental, how do we interpret this phenomenon or that phenomenon? And so if consciousness is fundamental matter, what we perceive to be matter, is just other conscious experiences arising in the universe. And so the mathematics, the physics, that's all a description of conscious experience. And so what everything actually is at bottom is felt, experiences arising and passing away in the universe. And again, they can be very, very simple and incomplete also, because we can only perceive very small fraction of what's actually happening.

A (82:16)

All we can actually agree on is that consciousness is real and that we are experiencing consciousness. And as Sam sort of always repeats in his daily meditations, like, like consciousness is all we have like. Like, you know, and the idea that something. You're over there and I'm here, and, you know, this is happening and tomorrow. Like, these are all on some level, like, kind of flawed interpretations of a reality that we are not, you know, we don't have the perceptual ability to accurately interpret.

B (82:51)

Yeah. Whatever description we have of the reason why we're having the conscious experiences we have. I mean, if we were brains in a vat, we would expect this to be exactly the same. Right. And so the only thing we can have direct experience of is our conscious experience. And we know those are real and those exist in the universe. But what they mean about the external reality, we really don't know. And so in some sense, it really is the only thing we know. And the truth is, everything we know or think we know has to happen within consciousness as well. Because you can make ridiculous statements and you just put at the end of it, but I was unconscious. And it actually makes no sense. I decided to have eggs for breakfast this morning, but I was unconscious when I made that decision. Those things, we absorb information and knowledge and process it always as a conscious experience.

A (83:47)

It is so incredibly difficult to try to process what you just said in any meaningful way. You know what I mean? Like, I've spent years. I guess, like, the way in really is meditation and, you know, a real, like, sort of confrontation with the illusion of self and the kind of emergence of thought and, you know, perceptual stimuli that allows you to first connect with a deeper reality that is beyond our ability to kind of perceive in our normal everyday lives.

B (84:24)

Yeah, I mean, I'm not even sure I would call it a deeper reality. I would call it a clearer way of seeing even our own conscious experience. And so we certainly walk around with a lot of illusions. And we know the brain is creating illusions like this all the time. For us, change blindness just in terms of our visual field and. But yes, the illusion of being a self in the way that we typically feel ourselves to be when you're able. So there are different ways of kind of seeing through this illusion. Some of them are just intellectual. You can understand how the brain works and realize there's no self in there to find. But you can do it introspectively as well through meditation or through psychedelics. Often you have this experience. And we now understand also how this related to the state of the brain. You know, when the default mode network quiets down. It's in that state that we tend to be able to drop that illusion of Self. And the experience of it is of seeing things more clearly. It feels like a simpler, more basic understanding of the reality.

A (85:32)

Next up is activist Robin Greenfield. Here in the United states, we have 5% of the world's population, but we consume 25% of the world's resources. That by definition is extreme. The world can't handle the way that we exist. And so the reason that I am so extreme is that I am a product of an extreme society. And to do anything other than go to the extreme would not allow me to even simply exist in a harmonious way. I have to go to this extreme just to even try to get to a place of a truly harmonious way of being. And then also my objective is to simply exist in a way that results in the questioning of the status quo and the societal norms that are unquestioned and even believed to be unquestionable. Like, you know, the concept of. The concept of ownership, which is at the heart of what I'm focused on right now. You know, there's cultures that don't even have a word for ownership. There's not even a concept of owning. But in our. I don't even know if I would call it a culture. We're so fragmented, but in our society, it's like unquestionable ownership. We can own the land, we can own the possessions, we can own the money, you know, and a lot of people accept that we can even own people. And so to go to this level of non ownership, it is extreme. But it is only extreme because I would say we are so. We've, you know, we've become so disconnected and I'm so enthralled by testing the levels of society that are very challenging to test. And I have, you know, I just, I'm doing it because I love it. I want to be doing it. Yeah. I mean, you're poking the bear. It's sort of like you're taking a stab at what we consider in age alienable truths. Everything in life is about perspective. Right. And it's so true. And when you talk about normalcy, like things that we don't question and we just accept as fact, there are plenty out there that we just sort of blindly kind of assume and use as a basis upon which to build the foundation of our lives. And ownership is certainly one of those. Like, what is ownership? Like, we assume it's a real thing. It's not a real thing. It's not real. It is a story. It is a social construct, a social contract. Right. That we simply do not Challenge, but doesn't actually exist. And for you to kind of challenge that is deeply confronting and is going to inevitably put you on, like a crash course. Crash. Collision course with authority and all kinds of institutional structures. Right. And. And that's what you're signing up for. So should the law enforcement in Griffith park decide that you need to be locked up for a night or two, I'm sure you're aware that that may well be in the near future. Right. You're okay with that? In the same way that Gandhi is like, okay, just nonviolent communication, but also nonviolence in general, like acceptance. And for you, as this. As this activist, it's all part of the story that you're telling. Yes. And I actually. So I've never been to jail, even though there's plenty of people who would rather me not be able to share my message, because it stands against a lot of what corporations would like and what our government would like. I have been pretty afraid, effective at poking the bear with a smile on my face. Yeah. Where they haven't, you know, so there's a lot of people online. Then they just think you're insane. Right. A lot of people who think I've gone mad, so I've done it. But then you're like, look, I did TED talks. That helps. You know, I mean, you have a gaggle of people around you. Right. Who are kind of running interference for you. Like these. The sort of acolytes and the people that are following you that are kind of showing up and Griffin Bark, like ant and the like.

B (89:51)

Yeah.

A (89:52)

I mean, none of them are there enough to. If the Rangers come, that they're going to be able to do anything. You know, if the Rangers come and they want to take me away, they can. They will. I don't have anybody. I don't have anybody supporting me in that regard, really. And one of the reasons why is because. Well, I just want to first acknowledge one thing. The activism that I'm doing is. Is in a very. It's in a realm where I've been very safe up to this point. And I've certainly taken a lot of risks. There's no question about that. And I've certainly given up a lot of comforts. But the reality is I live a very comfortable life, even with the fact that I own nothing and have no money. And there's certain areas in which I'm. I think right now is an area of, you know, civil disobedience, where I'm. There's a good chance I will be in jail in the years ahead because I'm just so deeply wanting to test the things that are likely to bring me there. And I have to say that if I was to spend some time in jail right now, I mean, it's absolutely perfect. All your needs are met. Yeah. To practice non ownership. I'll have a bed, I'll have food. We'll be able to practice just simple existence. This is nutrition scientist Matthew Nagra and this is a study out of Canada where they looked at unprocessed red meat consumption and the risk of cancer. But they did something interesting where they separated people into those who eat little fruits and veggies, moderate fruits and veggies, and then high fruits and veggies. And they found that in those with a lower intake of fruits and veggies, unprocessed red meat was associated with cancer risk. But in those with the highest intake, it was not significantly associated with higher risk. So Lane takes that to say that. Well, at higher, at even a regular intake of unprocessed red meat, if you're eating fruits and veggies and have a good diet quality, it's not problematic. But my criticisms of that study, or rather that conclusion from that study, is that if we look at the amount of red meat that they were consuming, the high consumers were having, we'll say a little above 500 grams a week. That's less than a serving a day. So 100 grams is a typical serving. That's about a deck of cards size per day. And so these people were consuming less than that. And that's sort of the threshold for where we typically see risk. So I would argue that the men in that study weren't even consuming enough and the women in that study were consuming even half as much, so even less. So that's problem one. The second problem is they lumped all the cancers together, or they did another analysis where they lumped 15 cancers together. Cancer. The issue with that is if, let's say unprocessed red meat increases colorectal cancer risk, but doesn't impact these other cancers or most of these other cancers, well then if you're looking at overall cancer risk, you're not going to see much. Even if you get an uptick in one cancer, it's going to be sort of washed out by the other ones. So I don't think it's fair to consume that. There's no risk there. And then the third problem is it's just cancer. What about cardiovascular disease or other outcomes? We can't conclude that it's safe for all of these other issues. So that is sort of what I made a post on. And this is back a few years ago now. It's funny, I'm surprised he even commented. I didn't have much of a following or anything at the time, but somebody tagged him and was like, hey, Lane talks about this. What do you think? Or they were maybe a bit concerned about the conclusions they'd heard from him. And he just commented saying that I'm biased and cherry picking and there's other data that supports his position. And so I just replied, well, can you share that data? Because I haven't seen other data like that. And in fact, he often talks about that study because of its uniqueness in the way that they did the analysis. So it doesn't make sense that there would be other data that supports it. Lane is somebody who's also going to say you're going to want to be intaking more protein than this rda. Yeah. And I think we agree. And that's the other thing I really want to be clear of. I think a lot of the information he puts out is good. Right. I'm not to be super critical of him in general. I just think around the animal protein versus plant protein debate and the red meat stuff. I think there's maybe a bit of bias there or something. But. But yeah, I, I would very much agree with him on going a bit higher than the rda. Most people believe that red meat is perfectly fine and appropriate as a part of a healthy diet. This could be a semester, you know, course here. But perhaps that's true. I'm interested in your perspective, but my sense is that. But we're just eating altogether way too much of it. And when you consider the fact that cardiovascular disease is the number one reason why most people are going to die and the relationship between CVD and saturated fat and cholesterol and ldl, red meat intake is only going to drive you in the direction of that rather than in the reverse. Yeah. And I think a really important variable here is dose. You mentioned eating too much of it. Do I think that someone, and I'll say this as a vegan, even when it comes to health, do I think you can include red meat, especially lean red meats, once, twice a week, something like that? Yeah, I don't think it'll have a meaningful impact. The problem is where you're averaging a serving a day. Like that's where really the problems start to creep up. And even with lean meats we see. And there was a trial by Bergeron in 2019, where they actually compared red meat, lean red meat, white meat, and plant protein. And they matched saturated fat, they matched fiber intake, and still the plant protein lowered apob relative to the animal proteins. And so there's still a benefit. What do you make of that? Like, what would drive that differential? I think a part of it is going to be the dietary cholesterol. So that's one thing that wasn't matched because it's inherent to the meat. And I know there's a lot of debate around dietary cholesterol and the impact that it has, and there's some nuance there. So if you take somebody who eats no dietary cholesterol, you take a vegan and you start feeding them cholesterol through eggs or other foods, their LDL is going to shoot up more. Whereas if you take somebody who's already eating about 400 milligrams of cholesterol a day and you add more, it doesn't do anything. There's a plateau effect. I see there's also genetic differences person to person, but that wouldn't show up in a trial like that because everyone was doing every diet. So it could be that that little bit of a bump in apob could be due to the dietary cholesterol or potentially due to some of the phytochemicals in the plant foods maybe having a little bit of an impact or something, as well as the exact mechanisms. I mean, I don't know that we'll tease out exactly what proportion each one contributes to, but those could all be factors. We continue with the iconic supermodel Elle McPherson.

B (96:20)

I wanted the experiences, and so I just, you know, I did that Aussie thing, which was like, step outside of your comfort zones and give it a go. And so if opportunities came my way and they resonated with me, even if they didn't make logical sense, I would take steps towards it and then the doors would open and one thing led to another, and before I knew it, I'd sort of built a brand and had a platform and then started producing things and then started licensing and then finally owning a business with Wellco.

A (96:54)

Yeah, I mean, there's lots of stuff in there, like set aside, like the television and the film stuff. I also didn't realize, like, how many, like, sort of projects you did, you know, in the kind of realm of Hollywood. But was the first kind of entrepreneurial venture when you decided to, like, do your own calendar? Yeah, that was the first instance that was like realizing, well, Sports Illustrated is putting these things out Like, I can do this myself and control it.

B (97:24)

Yeah. And I realized at the time that I was in more photographs in the calendar than a lot of the other girls. And so it was sort of heavily based on me anyway. And I just sort of thought, well, I'm not really being paid for this. Perhaps I can do it myself. But it was a fun project as well. Like, I wanted to be able to choose the photographer and choose the location and apply what I'd learned with Sports Illustrated to my own project. And it was brilliant. I remember, I think it cost, like, maybe 60 grand. And I pulled it all together and I found, you know, found a producer, a printer and a distributor and just did it. It was like a kid that, you know, doesn't know any better when they're going down the mountain and they're skiing, they have no fear. Well, I had no fear at that time. I didn't think, well, what if it fails? Or, what if I can't get it out? Or what if no one buys it? I just. Okay, I'll give this a go.

A (98:23)

Were you, like, the first person to try something like that at that time?

B (98:27)

Maybe. I don't know if Christy Brinkley had done her own things. I mean, she was sort of the generation just before me, and she was already sort of stepping out of the kind of regular model mode, and she had her health and beauty books. She was doing other things. And so she may have done a calendar. I don't know.

A (98:47)

Yeah. And then you had the lingerie company. Right. That was like a licensing deal, though. But that was also you kind of seizing control and saying, like, I can do something outside of the, you know, kind of strictures of this modeling world and create kind of financial independence in a different way. I mean, now today, with the influencer economy, like, that just seems like an obvious thing. But back then, at that time, it wasn't right.

B (99:11)

No. And it was really kind of a perfect sort of culmination of events because this little New Zealand company was brilliant at making underwear. They came to me and said, will you be the face of our brand? I was looking for a project. I didn't know what because I'd already kind of seen licensing in action as a child. I remember playing tennis, and do you remember John Newcombe? He was an Australian tennis player. And I remember getting a little tennis skirt, and it had his. His logo on it, which was his wink face and his big mustache. And I was like, man, here's a tennis player and he's making clothes. I think that's so genius that he's able to do two things. And so that sort of was in the back of my mind. And I had this concept that I had a platform through Sports Illustrated. How could I use that platform into creating a business that didn't require me going to the studio every day? Like showing up as a model. How could I kind of find some sort of something? And at that time, I thought it might have been swimsuits that I could put my name on and have the swimsuits be the stars. So the sale of the swimsuits be my income, rather than me just showing up at the studio. So making money while you sleep, really. And this New Zealand company had come to me and said, will you be the face of our brand? And I just said, why don't we do a licensing agreement where I'll help you design? Because I love lingerie. I was living in Paris at the time. I can't find anything that fits. I have a particular type of thing that I want to do for myself. And if it sells, great, we all make money. If it doesn't sell, we don't. You know, it's. It's a wash. And so that was my first truly entrepreneurial, I think, decision.

A (101:08)

Next up is filmmaker and telepathy tapes podcaster Kai Dickens.

B (101:14)

Rupert Sheldrake. He's a biologist from Cambridge University. I mean, that's a very prestigious school. He's an incredibly smart man. And I loved his story about how he fell into this. He didn't believe in telepathy or that psi abilities could be real. He was in the tea room at Cambridge and there was, I think he was a young graduate student or something at this point, I don't exactly remember, but I know he was early in his career and there was a scientist at the school, Sir Rudolph Peter. So he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his contributions to the scientific field within England. So this is a very prestigious professor. And Rupert was in the tea room with Sir Rudolph Peters, who said, I have just come across a blind boy who was able to read an eye chart when his mother was looking at it. And that's fascinating. Well, how is that possible? And it sounds very similar to what we're talking about right now at this, in this interview. So Rudolph Peters thought, well, this is fascinating. It seems like either this boy is seeing through his mother's eyes or somehow has a telepathic link. So they ended up doing, like a telepathy test, I think, where they put them, you know, in rooms far apart. And they did, like, telepathy experiment between the two, and it was statistically relevant. It was pretty remarkable. And that changed Rupert's life. It changed his perspective, and it changed the questions he was asking. So he has written a ton of books on animal telepathy. In particular, the sense of being stared at, testing whether or not dogs know when their owners are coming home.

A (102:44)

Yeah, explain that one. This is my favorite study.

B (102:47)

Yeah, it's quite wonderful because I think a lot of us who are animal lovers have had that feeling, right, that your animal knows what's going on. And so he tested. They would page. I think this is before the prime time of cell phones. They would page an animal owner when it was time to head home. And they would have them take different routes, different cars, taxis, whatever it be, so that the dog wasn't used to the sound of the engine or the, you know, the rumble of this particular gravel on the road. And they would make sure that person was coming home at different times. So when they did this experiment, it. They were trying to account for all these variables and a statistically relevant amount of cases. The dog would come and wait by the door the second that their owner's mental, you know, was. Mental state was like, headed home when they were going home. And of course, there's a few moments where a car got a flat tire or someone got called back into work. And when that happened, they had the cameras up. The dog would go back and lie down and go back to, you know, whatever it was sleeping. And. And then if the owner turned their mind toward coming home again, the dog would come back up and wait. And so that was a really enjoyable study. And it was. It was statistically relevant in dogs and even in some cats, which I thought was great. So he's been studying this for a long time. And one thing that he postulated that really helped get my mind around this is that the mind has a mental field. And this is not uncommon in science. Right. We know that the Earth has a gravitational field. You can't see it. You know it's there. You know it's powerful. You know, the magnet has a magnetic field.

A (104:13)

Magnetic field.

B (104:14)

We don't see the magnetic field, but we know it's there. We know it's powerful. And so why wouldn't the. I mean, it's not an uncommon idea to think that our brain might have a mental field that extends outside of us, that might help us to understand when we're being stared at or overlap with someone when it comes to, you know, telepathy or precognition or that type of thing.

A (104:33)

Yeah. We do have that intuition when somebody is behind us looking at us, don't we? Yeah, it's pretty undeniable. We're dismissive of it, but I think we can all relate to that. I just know I have two big dogs. Our yard is fenced. Our dogs are out. They just kind of like roam around out in the yard. And when I'm driving home, I have an electric car. Doesn't make any noise at all. And if I have the windows down as I get, you know, close to our driveway, well, before anybody can see anything, the dogs are like right at the, right at the gate and they're barking like every time, like they know when I'm coming. And I'm like, they have this incredible sense of smell. Maybe they can smell something about. I don't know what it is, but like, I've had my version of that experience.

B (105:20)

Yeah. And like, for me, I'd be like, I wouldn't trust that that's telepathy or something. Unless you were to try, try it.

A (105:25)

I never thought that much about it, but like.

B (105:27)

Well, no, it could be, but I'm saying, like, if you test it in different cars, right, you test it coming home a different way. You test it putting on like, I don't know, trying to get like your smell off your body. Like, try everything you can. And if it's still working, then there's something going on.

A (105:41)

Yeah.

B (105:41)

Like, I think it's so important that like, no one should take this off at face value. I mean, that's ridiculous to take it at face value. We're not going to advance anything. We're not going to become smarter as a, as a human race. We're not going to become more educated or more thoughtful about anything. If we just take any of this at face value. Like, you have to ask the questions, you have to do the science, you have to research it, you have to peer review it, you have to analyze it. And I think, I mean, that's been my whole hope with the Telepathy Tapes podcast is just to try to get research funded for these scientists where so often it's hard to get a grant to study ESP or telepathy or clairvoyance because it has been historically seen as woo, woo.

A (106:21)

And rounding out our list is Dr. Judith Joseph, an expert on high functioning depression. The high functioning person generally, in my experience, has a pretty powerful motor. Like they have this drive, you know, they're trying to make their imprint on the world for better or worse. Right. And trauma may be the kind of cause of why they are that way, or at least in a related way. But the fuel for that drive is essentially fear of one form or another. And that fear is linked obviously to the trauma or to some other root cause or source. But it is a fear response, right? This fear could be, if I don't do it, everything's going to fall apart. Or my identity is so wrapped up in what I do, and if I don't show up for it, then and who am I? I'm scared of how other people will perceive me. In treating people who suffer from this, I suspect you have to identify the locus of that fear and try to deconstruct it.

B (107:28)

Yeah, I do.

A (107:30)

And you're absolutely right. That fear is what we would call anxiety, right?

B (107:36)

Fear of the not being loved, fear of the running out of money, you know, from me, I have done this deep dive into my own past because I came to this country with very little and from the Caribbean. And I didn't even realize how this chasing accolades, you know, not just having one lab, but three labs, you know, having all these roles was tied to this fear of running out of resources. On a conscious level. I knew, okay, there's no way I'm gonna run out. The money's in the bank, I'm good. But the inner restlessness came from this unprocessed fear of running out. And many people, you know, they may not have come from the similar background that I have, but the generations before them that could have been passed down. You know, let's say if your grandparents came from a war torn country where they were oppressed and they came here and they lived in ways that, you know, you're not supposed to take risks, you're supposed to hoard, you know, don't waste food. Some of your behaviors are out of this scarcity trauma that was never processed. And that's why it is important to sit still and to trace yourself back to that moment. It could have been in your, in your past, in your family history. It could have been in your personal history. But it's important to sit down and reflect on it. It's validating.

A (109:01)

If you take your foot off the gas, it's all gonna collapse, right? Like, it's all gonna go away. Whether that's an imposter syndrome thing or a scarcity mindset or trauma. Unless I'm there doing it all the time, it's all gonna break down, which is a fear response. It's also, there's a layer of narcissism on top of that, that it's as if like I'm so powerful, I'm so afraid of being not in control, but I'm also all powerful and I will be able to solve it. And beneath that is a discomfort with uncertainty because this scarcity mindset is really a discomfort with not knowing what's going to happen. And so what can I control? Well, I can control my output and my work and that will solve it. But of course the world is uncertain and no amount of work or effort is going to allow you to transcend that.

B (110:02)

I love that you said narcissism because one of my professors in training at Columbia once told us to look out for people who have. They're like the flip coin. One side is narcissism and the other side is masochism and narcissists. What we think of narcissists, we think of people who are full of themselves, who lack empathy, who are prideful and boastful. But we don't think about the masochistic narcissist who bends over backwards, is constantly working, is delaying pleasure because they believe that they're the only ones who can do it right, only they could do it right. And I think many people with high functioning depression have these narcissistic, masochistic tendencies and it's not because they're a bad person, it's just because they didn't process that pain and what they end up doing is fighting their self worth in that role. So they, it looks very narcissistic. I'm the only one who could do it. But it is masochistic because they're bending over backwards.

A (111:01)

But it's self validating also. And then, and then you look at the world through that lens like see when I did it it worked and when you didn't it didn't work. You know, and it's constantly being reinforced that way.

B (111:12)

But they're not happy.

A (111:13)

Yeah, they're leaving joy on the table. They are men miserable. We did it. I really hope you enjoyed this reflection in the rear view and found this episode uplifting and inspiring. The full list of guests featured and links to the full episodes can be found in the show notes on the episode page@richroll.com and thank you, thank you for the love and love the support. Part two with a bunch more awesome excerpted convos will be up later this week so stay tuned for that and and I can't wait to grow and learn alongside you in the new year ahead. All right everybody, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's episode page@richroll.com where you will find the entire podcast archive as well as my books, Finding Ultra, the Voicing Change series, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free. Actually, all you gotta do is subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review or drop a comment. Sharing your show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome as well and extremely helpful. So thank you in advance for for that. In addition, I'd like to thank all of our amazing sponsors, without whom this show just would not be possible, or at least, you know, not free. To check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@rich roll.com Today's show is produced and engineered by Jason Cameron along with Associate producer Desmond Lowe. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our Creative Director Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course our theme music, as always, was created all the way back in 2012 by my stepsons Tyler and Trapper Pyatt, along with her cousin Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support and I'll see you back here soon. Peace Plan.