Liz Gilbert (3:56)

Liz Gilbert is here, you guys. Can you believe it? Liz Gilbert. Liz is one of my very favorite people. I've wanted to get her on the pod for so long. She is one of the people that I look up to the most as a writer, of course, as a creative inspiration and teacher and really just as a human. Because Liz embodies and is basically the full expression of just so many laudable qualities that I personally struggle with, like total fearlessness and gratitude as well as just being this beautiful open channel of creative flow. But also when it comes to the deeper stuff like how to live life full on and unapologetically and lead with unconditional love. Unconditional love. That is the big one. That's the one. When I sat in front of the Dalai Lama last year, he talked about the most. It's the idea, the expression, the embodiment that I find so difficult to give and receive despite knowing, like really knowing that it's always the answer, it's always the way forward. Which kind of brings me to today, which is a big day because it's 9 11. I'm recording this on September 8th in New York City. I'm actually going to be leaving tomorrow.

Rich Roll (5:19)

So I'm not going to actually be.

Liz Gilbert (5:20)

In New York City on the day that it all happened. But I have been here on past 9 11. It's not in 2001, but on the anniversary dates. And there really is nothing quite like being in New York City on this day. And if this is something you haven't experienced, it's not exactly what you might expect. Of course it's solemn, it's sad in so many ways. But it's also this example of oneness in action. Because even though this city is so large and can be overwhelming, it also really is a community. And that day 911 and every 911 after is this day where you have the privilege of witnessing this community coming together to remember what happened, of course, but also to remember that people can come together and that the best of humanity amidst tragedy can prevail. And I think it symbolizes and captures the relationship between two ideas that I think about a lot that are central, in my opinion, to success as an athlete, as a creative person and as a human, which is this relationship between vulnerability and resilience. And given the very strange state of the world right now, which seems to be bringing out the worst in people, where disagreement and acrimony seems to dominate the discourse as we descend into what.

Rich Roll (6:43)

To me appears pretty clear to be.

Liz Gilbert (6:45)

Autocracy, it's easy to feel like humanity, not just in America, but in many places across the world, has lost the ability to come together to solve our common problems, to remember what's important, and that while we have our vulnerabilities for sure we are fundamentally resilient. And that is the stuff of hope. So I'm grateful to reflect upon 911 as I sit here in New York a couple days before this anniversary. I'm grateful to be alive, to be healthy, to be healing, to have my family to be reminded that things like community and hope can exist and can prevail.

Rich Roll (7:23)

And grateful to have this conversation with.

Liz Gilbert (7:25)

Liz to remind me of all of this, that gratitude and love are not only possible when things feel dire, but actually are more important than ever. You probably know Liz from her stratospherically best selling book, Eat Pray Love, which was made into a major motion picture in which Liz is played by Julia Roberts. But Liz has written many books, my favorite among them being Big Magic, which is big time magic for anybody who's pursuing a relationship with their creativity. And really among my very favorite books on that subject matter. It's basically a must read that sits right alongside, at least for me, books like the War of Art, the Artist's Way and the Creative Act. I've known Liz for a long time, so this conversation on some level is long overdue, as I said at the outset, but also kind of perfect because Liz is in a place she wasn't only a few years prior, which is to say that she is sober, not from the condition that ails me, but.

Rich Roll (8:25)

From something I'm not sure I've ever.

Liz Gilbert (8:27)

Fully explored on this podcast before, which is sex and love addiction and what she has to say about it is, I think, profound, because this affliction is something I think that so many people struggle with. Whether it shows up as sexual compulsion, codependency, or unhealthy attachments motivated by a fear of abandonment. This is an addiction for just far too many, goes unnoticed and untreated, in part because it's a little bit harder to identify than something like substance abuse or gambling, but also because it's the most stigmatized. It's an addiction that leads to just profound levels of shame and demoralization, basically like no other addiction, which means that people end up suffering from it in silence, despite the fact that left untreated, it will destroy lives just like the worst kind of addiction you can imagine.

Rich Roll (9:24)

So that is a huge part of.

Liz Gilbert (9:25)

What we talk about today, which Liz lays out in her latest book called all the Way to the river, with just the most courageous honesty and vulnerability, which makes this book such an important and incredible read. Obviously for anybody who does struggle with these issues, but also for basically everyone. I mean, even if you can't relate to what Liz has endured, it's an important read because first of all, this is beautifully written. Nobody can write like Liz, and this book really burns down the house. And second, because my bet is that you do have someone in your life, whether you're aware of it or not, that does struggle with what you're going to hear Liz talk about. And you can't really show up to love and support these people unless you have an understanding of the problem. Liz is a gift. This one is extraordinary and I'm grateful to share it with you. So have at it. Pick up all the way to the river right away and check out her substack, which is called Letters from Love, where you will find her and her 250,000 strong community actively practicing unconditional love.

Rich Roll (10:38)

We have been going back and forth for I don't know how long to like make this happen. Right. But these things happen when they're supposed to happen, you know, I would have preferred you to be this coming on for like your 10th time on this.

Elizabeth Gilbert (10:50)

Show, but if we're going to do 10th time, we have to do first time. So we'll start with first time and then we'll ramp up.

Rich Roll (10:57)

Well, what I didn't expect is that we would be doing a little bit of what it was like, what happened and what it's like now, you know, and that's my favorite kind of conversation to have. And you're in the right place in your life to kind of have that conversation right now.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:12)

Thanks for the little coded introduction to inside baseball. 100%. And people can take what they like and leave the rest.

Rich Roll (11:18)

That's true.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:19)

Another little inside baseball thing there. But, yes, this is the moment, and this is the subject.

Rich Roll (11:23)

Yes. And Earth School is in session, Liz.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:26)

Earth School is always in session, Rich.

Rich Roll (11:28)

So that Margot show, which I do think must have been 2018, and I'm trying to match that up on the timeline of your sobriety. You were either in early sobriety or not quite sober at that time.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:40)

I think I was. If I do the math, I think I was four months away from walking into the rooms.

Rich Roll (11:44)

Oh, wow. Wow.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:46)

I was on my last little bender.

Rich Roll (11:48)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:49)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (11:50)

You feel like you're in a really good place right now, though.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:52)

Oh, thank you.

Rich Roll (11:53)

That's energetically.

Elizabeth Gilbert (11:54)

That's good to hear. Thank you. I am just for today. And I think that's the important thing to remember, because I get into this place where I start negotiating with the universe, and I'm like, let's keep this. Like, this is good. Let's keep stable. I think I've had enough of a curriculum, and I don't need any more big lessons. And let's not have the ground fall out from beneath my feet anymore. Let me not be a creator of chaos. Let me not have any chaos created upon me. And the answer I always hear back is like, let's just do today.

Rich Roll (12:25)

Yeah, I mean, grip too tightly to that. Right. We'll see what happens. Usually not good.

Elizabeth Gilbert (12:30)

Trust your 24.

Rich Roll (12:30)

Let's just.

Elizabeth Gilbert (12:31)

You're good right now.

Rich Roll (12:32)

This is just another, you know, lesson in our school of deepening your surrender. And you don't get to hold onto what you're not giving back for sure, 100%. Was the decision to write about this stage of your life a difficult one to make, or did it feel natural to you?

Elizabeth Gilbert (12:53)

It was really difficult. I mean, so the book is about my partner, Rhea, who died of pancreatic and liver cancer seven years ago, who had been a heroin and cocaine addict in recovery for many, many, many years and then had a massive blowout bender relapse right before she died. So the book is about that experience, which was extremely harrowing. And I was her partner and her caregiver during that. But it's also, in a parallel way, about my addiction that I never had, had a name for, that I kept acting out in my version of her bender, which is I use people the way she used cocaine and heroin. So sex and love addiction, codependency, manipulation, and control. Trying to outsource my care to whoever would do it. Like, are you my mother? Are you my mother? Like that Dr. Seuss book, just walking around, handing my power over to people and asking them to give me back a little bit of it. So the book is about that relationship and it's about my awakening to that. But I was so rattled after she died. I mean, I was rattled with grief, but I was also rattled with, like, what happened. How did the person who was the most trusted person in my entire life, like the one person who I trusted without any reservation in my life, the one person who could always make me feel safe, turn into like an absolute vampire who was using me and degrading herself and me? What did that mean? What did it mean about us? I mean, it was so difficult to unthread that. And there was a part of me that didn't even wanna look at it because it was so excruciating. There's a part in the book where I say, like, when I get to the really bad part, I'm like, I don't even. I still don't to tell this story. Like, I still don't want this to be how that story ended. So I wrote right after she died, I wrote sort of a little novella, like a little 70 page piece of fiction, sort of loosely based on it. And I'm like, you're hiding from this thing. Like this isn't it? And then I tried to write it as a book of poetry and I'm like, that's not it. And then finally it was like, dude, you have to actually just sit down and say what happened? And that's what the book is. It's almost like a postmortem on a crime scene. Like, what happened here? How did we get to this point? And how do we get out of that point once we're in it?

Rich Roll (15:13)

It's hard and painful enough to look at Rhea and try to solve the equation of how she went from one person to the next. But that's a pretty easy equation to solve for. You know, insert heroin, cocaine, amphetamines, you know, all of it, right?

Elizabeth Gilbert (15:30)

Whatever you're inserting, it's like no surprise.

Rich Roll (15:32)

Surprised that there is a complete character shift as a result of that. The harder thing is to look in the mirror and to try to deconstruct how you went from this person who believed themselves to be something into something else altogether. How did you get lured into that trap? And what is the wiring inside of you that impulsed you to make decisions that with Time, distance, space, and recovery, you can see clearly, were not in your best interest.

Elizabeth Gilbert (16:02)

Right. And if I had written this book directly after Rhea died, it would have been a book about what a nice person I am and what a terrible thing happened to me, you know, And I think I had just enough wisdom and perspective at that time to be like, it can't be that simple, can it? You know, like, it can't just be that I'm a really nice, giving, generous, loving person who ended up getting taken advantage of, but I didn't know what it was. And the question I think that is always present in any of the 12 step rooms that deal with relationships, and I'm in all of them, is what is my role in this? How did I co create this? I mean, Raya used to say to me, one of the things I loved about her is whenever I was feeling even remotely sorry for myself, she would be like, there's no victims in this room, Liz. There's no victims in this room. And I'm like, I sure feel like there's one. You know, like, I sure feel like there's one. So the rigorous honesty to start to unthread, not only why did this happen? Why does this always happen? You know, how did I end up here? It's not even just a book about how did I end up here. It's how did I end up here again when I kind of thought I had my life in order in a certain way. You know, it's like the Zen say that, you know, first they pull the rug out from under your feet, and then they pull the floor out from under the rug, and then they pull the ground out from under the floor. And now you're ready to begin. And that's sort of the state I was in after she died, where I was like, there's no rug, there's no floor, there's no ground. I don't know how any of this happened or who I am. And I'm somebody who thought she knew and didn't.

Rich Roll (17:41)

That had to get untangled first, though, before you would be open and willing enough to do that. Inside glance.

Elizabeth Gilbert (17:48)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (17:49)

Yeah. I have so many questions about this, but I think it would be good to spend a few minutes elaborating further on sex and love addiction, because it is a tricky thing to really wrap your head around if you're not familiar with it. Everybody has some connection to substance abuse addiction or gambling, and there's many varieties of addiction, and it's great that there's a kind of greater conversation happening around all of these things to normalize them. But I feel like sex and love addiction isn't really all that well understood and it's still attached to a lot of, like, taboos and fears. And I think maybe that's what keeps it a little bit more in the dark. So maybe talk a little bit more about what it is and maybe how even someone could self diagnose themselves.

Elizabeth Gilbert (18:41)

I think the best way to do it is to do this like a qualification and just tell my story. And I think that people may recognize parts of themselves in it. I would be loathe to start giving tools of diagnosis for something that can be so subtle. But I can say this about me. I can say that what it manifests as in me is a sincere belief that there's somebody out there who I can meet who's going to make me feel okay lastingly, and that my job is to find that person. And it's a difficult thing because of course, culture teaches us exactly to do that. And especially if you're a woman, you're very much taught that that's a story that's, you know, as old as the hills, that girls and women are taught. There's an incompletion in me and I'm going to go find the person who's going to complete me. That's the sort of soft way to describe it. The way that I would describe how I experience it is that I have always used people the way other people use substances. So there are people who I have used as sedatives, and there are people who I've used as stimulants. And what I want to take complete ownership over as I tell my story is what that has made me into over time is somebody who can be extremely manipulative. And that's the sort of side effect of this. It's like if I don't feel okay and I need to find somebody who's going to make me feel okay, then in order to get that need met, I'm going to have to figure out how to be an operator in terms of how do I have to present, like, what do I have to become in order to get what we call in some of these rooms lava, which is love, attention, validation and acceptance, right? So that's what I'm longing for, because I can't generate that within myself, right? So I need to go get this lava. Like somebody else has this. Somebody's the plug. Like somebody's got this stuff. I don't have it. And so what do I have to do like what ends? Like any addict, it's like what manipulations do I have to do? What lies do I have to tell? What tricks do I have to turn in order to get your eye contact on me? And the words that I need you to say, I need to make you say those words. I need to make you make these promises to me. I need to completely abandoned myself in order to get you to do this thing for me. And if I don't get the thing that I need, I'll go get it somewhere else, regardless of what commitment I've made to somebody. And so when I look at my particular history with this, what I see is for 35 uninterrupted years, tiny little interruption. When I written Whit and Roadie Pray Love, there was like a nine month period where I wasn't doing this, which was actually the healthiest time of my life. Until now. I was just going between sedative, stimulant, sedative, stimulant. This person is extremely exciting. This person is extremely calming. You know, like, okay, now I'm so calm that I can't bear the restlessness and the irritability and the discontent. So now I have to go find somebody who's absolutely thrilling, who's going to like light me up until they withhold and then I go insane. And now I need another sedative and now I need another stimulant. And this is what I did. To great cost, you know, to great cost to me. To great cost to other people. It involved cheating on people, allowing myself to be cheated on, breaking up other people's families and relationships. There's a ruthlessness that any addict has, which is what I have to do to get this. I will do no matter what it costs me or anybody else. And I knew my entire life that there was something wrong with me because I could see that other people weren't doing this. You know, like, I think that's something that every addict kind of knows from an earlier age than we could admit, which is like, other people aren't doing this. Like somehow other people are just going and having a Tuesday while I'm out here playing this like high stakes roulette with my life and with my body and with my heart and with my spirit, bringing other people into danger with me, like putting myself at risk and not being able to stop.

Rich Roll (22:50)

And that low level of self awareness drives shame and isolation and loneliness. And you start to compartmentalize it and create this secret life. Because deep down, even though you know you're not ready to confront it, you know, that you need to hide and shroud it from everybody else.

Elizabeth Gilbert (23:09)

There's a line I quote in the book from Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who said, everybody has three lives. A public life, a private life, and a secret life. And the private life is the life you share with your family and your friends, but the secret life is the life you share with no one. And addicts secret lives are dark, you know, and the reason you hide your secret life is because it would destroy if people knew it. It would destroy both your private and your public life. Like, if people knew what you were up to. You don't even approve of what you're up to.

Rich Roll (23:36)

But the trick there is that the addict thinks that it's their secret life. They don't realize how patently obvious it.

Elizabeth Gilbert (23:43)

They don't realize your public life. We all saw that a long time before you did.

Rich Roll (23:48)

You know, there's something uniquely insipid about sex and love addiction because it isn't necessarily immediately obvious. You know, you're not going to be necessarily late for work. Or, you know, there's the general evidence that, you know, people use to kind of point to someone and say they have a problem. Isn't something that you can like, do with that kind of facility with this condition.

Elizabeth Gilbert (24:13)

Except all those things that happen to addicts also happen to in these kind of obsessive maelstroms of like, the vortex of insanity that people can get into with each other. Like, not only can you be late for work, you can destroy your entire career. You know, like, you're gonna have an affair at work with a supervisor and you're gonna lose your job. You're gonna hit on an intern and you're gonna be like, dismissed from the faculty of the university where you teach. Like, your marriage is gonna be destroyed. All the stuff that also happens in addiction also happens here. In addition to killing yourself and killing others, you know, it's one of the leading causes of suicide. And homicide is like the horror that people get into with each other. Where, like, I mean, you read it every open the papers, it's like every single day, people are killing their partners and. Or killing themselves over relationships and over heartbreak. And divorce is one of the leading causes of suicide. And sex and love addiction can be a thing that leads to divorce, Right? So. So I actually would argue that it's every bit as destructive. But the tricky thing is the culture doesn't say to you in a million different ways what will cure you is if you do more heroin or gamble more, what the culture teaches you in a million ways is what will cure you is finding true love. And so you're being taught that the solution, I mean, you'll be told to go out and try again.

Rich Roll (25:35)

Yeah. You just haven't found the right person.

Elizabeth Gilbert (25:36)

You just haven't found the right person yet. So how many more people was I gonna try this with? You know, and it's like, anybody want to be my fourth spouse? Like, anybody want to do this again? Like, really, you want to roll the dice with me? Like, it's. It's like, how many more times? How many more different kinds of people? Like, I put the hours in on this. Like, men, women, open relationships, closed relationships. Like, I'm like, let me try. Emma's constantly trying to get the levels right and never able to get the.

Rich Roll (26:08)

But that's why Rhea is such a fantastic gift, you know, back to the Earth school idea. I mean, for people. Don't know, maybe you can explain it. But essentially the notion is that, you know, we've all volunteered for this incarnation, and the curriculum is presenting us with all of these assignments, which are essentially obstacles and hardship and suffering to test our ability to navigate them, each of which is its own individual opportunity for growth, evolution, and ultimately liberation. Right? Should we choose to accept it, like, you know, in this Mission Impossible, you know, kind of context. And, you know, here comes Rhea, this, you know, comet, right? Who's just like the most larger than life character you could ever imagine. Like, just catnip for somebody who's a people pleaser, like the charisma of this.

Elizabeth Gilbert (26:58)

Individual and an intensity addict.

Rich Roll (27:00)

And I can't imagine, like the tractor beam or like center of gravity that this person held, that made it impossible for you to, you know, it was undeniable, right? But because this person was so large, like a comet, like she was going to flame out, right? And in the most fantastic way. And it gets so dark, like, at the end there. But ultimately, this is exactly what you needed to interrupt that pattern. Because short of that, you could have gone through a string of 10 more relationships and kept that, you know, kettle at a low boil and never met your maker to learn the lesson that you needed to learn in order to evolve to this new phase.

Elizabeth Gilbert (27:42)

You just said that so well. And that's exactly it. And I remember when she was flaming out and my life was tanking and I was so trapped in this nightmare, like, suddenly this beautiful love story turned into Sid and Nancy. I'm like, what's going on?

Rich Roll (27:57)

How is my house literally tying her off and shooting her is crazy. Crazy.

Elizabeth Gilbert (28:01)

How am I going down to Chinatown to get clean needles? How am I like the lady who wrote Eat, Pray, Love?

Rich Roll (28:09)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (28:09)

Like, taking.

Rich Roll (28:10)

This is like the. A 24 thousands of dollars out of.

Elizabeth Gilbert (28:13)

My ATM to buy cocaine from teenagers in the East Village for my partner so that she'll love me. Like, how am I in this? You know? I mean, and how am I in this is. I think. I don't think it's possible for anybody to go through their Earth school curriculum without having multiple occasions of, how am I in this? Like, how did I end up. I thought this was a parachute, but it's a backpack full of bricks, you know, like, what's happening? Like, how am I? And I remember at that time just being so bewildered, like, what? How is this happening? And I went for. I remember going for a walk and leaving her in this, like, cloud of cigarette smoke and drugs in our apartment and walking down the street in New York, and I was like, I need to pray. I need to pray. I need to pray. And I don't think I've ever told this story before, but you just spurred it in me, which is the weirdest prayer came out of me. I was on, like, east ninth street, broad daylight, and I was like. And before I could even, like, check the words, the words came out, make it worse. Like, I said to God, like, make it worse. Whatever this thing is you're doing to my life, this, like, sledgehammer that you've taken to my life, I don't get it. I still don't get what this is. I know this has got to be part of an Earth school curriculum, but all I see is, like, useless suffering and pain. So don't be easy on me. If there's something that you're trying to show me, hammer it harder. Like, destroy me so that I can see this. Because there's obviously something I can't see yet. And it did get worse, and I still couldn't see. Took a year after she died for me to finally be like, oh. And it took somebody sitting me down, you know, and 12 stepping me, essentially, and just saying, like, I've watched you do this for 35 years, and there's a room for this. And I think you're not well, and I'll go with you to a meeting. And I was like, me, a meeting? I'm not the drug addict. Yeah.

Rich Roll (30:15)

It's so interesting because you're in the midst of it and can't see it for what it is, which I think gets to that other earlier point. About like it is. It's. It's tough to notice. And until you have some education into what this thing actually is for you to be able to identify it.

Elizabeth Gilbert (30:32)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (30:33)

Paint the picture of this relationship with. With Rhea, like, how it began and kind of where it ended up. So. So people understand, you know, kind of the trajectory.

Elizabeth Gilbert (30:43)

It was a very slow burn. It was like she was an acquaintance and then she was a neighbor, and then she was a friend, and then she was a close friend, and then she was my. And then there was a moment I reached where I was like, oh, she's indispensable. Like, I saw the impact that she had on me, that her incredibly grounding, reassuring and strong presence had on me. So I'm somebody who has always had a very deep fear of people and a fear of the unpredictability of people. And like, anyone can go off at any moment. There's reasons that I have this fear, but, like, folks is crazy here. And my job that I took on from earliest childhood was vigilance. You must be vigilant. You must never rest, because these people are capable of anything. So read the room, feel the room. I can read a face from 100 yards. I can sit in a house with 10 people in different rooms, and I can tell you what everyone is feeling. It's essential for me to know and monitor and track the moods and the sensations of everyone in the room for my own safety. This is how I.

Rich Roll (31:48)

You grew up.

Elizabeth Gilbert (31:50)

I grew up in an alcoholic influence, you know, and I grew up with children of alcoholics and deep alcoholic damage multiple generations down the line on both sides of the family. So I'm nervous, and I think. And nervous is my baseline. So Rhea shows up and she's not nervous. And whatever insanity anybody brings, she'd lived on the streets, she'd been in Rikers island, she'd been in insane asylums, she'd been in the Hopkins Square riots. Like, she could handle everybody and everything in this seemingly effortless jujitsu way. And whatever crazy anybody brought, she just met it with this sort of clear eyed, like, why are you being crazy, man? And, like, just. She was like. She could just top out. She was like the calm dog in the herd of, like, in the pack of dogs who all the other dogs laid down when Raya walked in. So when I saw what that did to my nervous system, I experienced for the first time in my life when she was in the room, this feeling of absolute safety. And once I experienced that and externalized that feeling of safety, where you are the provider of that. You can't leave now because otherwise I have to go back to the anxiety field that I live in all the time. And that began my addiction to her.

Rich Roll (33:07)

And it starts with, hey, you can stay rent free in my house. You know, you can stay. I have a spot for you. Yeah, like all these sort of moves that you're making unconsciously, you can have my consciously to bring her closer and make yourself indispensable.

Elizabeth Gilbert (33:21)

Exactly. I will make myself indispensable to you because you have become indispensable to me. None of this was above the level of consciousness. And none of this was ever spoken. Right. This was like this is the secret operating system that I've got underneath me that's hustling to make sure that my needs are met because I can't meet them.

Rich Roll (33:50)

So I constantly find myself in this situation, a situation I suspect many of you can relate to, where almost every day it seems I'm being pulled in a thousand directions. Too much to do. But I need to not just show up for it all, but show up with my best self, with clarity and with purpose. And I will lean into anything that will facilitate that in a healthy way. Which is exactly what Nandaka by Peak is designed for and why it is my new favorite coffee alternative. So what is it? It is a nootropic adaptogen blend built for focus and calm energy without the crash. No low rent mycelium fillers, just 100% fruiting body mushrooms. The legit high quality stuff like lion's mane for cognitive support, Reishi and Chaga for your nervous system. Plus ceremonial grade cacao rich in anandamide, the bliss molecule. They've added fermented probiotic teas for gut health and cacao butter that delivers nutrients right where they're needed. So this isn't about chasing another caffeine high. It's really about nourishing your brain at a cellular level level with organic plant based ingredients. For me, the energy is clean, the focus is steady, and it really does help me with my creative flow. Genuinely enjoyable. Smooth, earthy cacao with this subtle spice. Very tasty and basically a daily ritual I actually look forward to. And right now you can get up to 20% off for life. Plus a free starter kit including a rechargeable frother and glass beaker. Head to peaklife.com richroll to try mandaka.

Liz Gilbert (35:35)

And feel the shift for yourself.

Rich Roll (35:39)

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Liz Gilbert (35:44)

I kind of get it.

Rich Roll (35:45)

The marketing has been terrible for decades, but what the science shows is that creatine is actually this fundamental cellular fuel. Your brain uses it, your heart uses it. Every energy demanding process in your body relies on it. And this connects to everything I explore on the show. Cognitive well being, physical performance, recovery, longevity. It's about improving how your cells generate energy at the most fundamental level. Momentous understands this. And their new lemon travel packs make it simple. I've got them right here.

Liz Gilbert (36:16)

They're all naturally flavored, of course, but.

Rich Roll (36:19)

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Elizabeth Gilbert (37:24)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (37:24)

And you're the successful one and she's the hairdresser who's weathered hardship and, you know, is not really living in the same socioeconomic sort of strata as you are and operating in a very different world.

Elizabeth Gilbert (37:38)

Yeah. So I was like, I'll bring you up to my strata, which is where you've always wanted to be.

Rich Roll (37:45)

And she pulls you instead, she pulls you down.

Elizabeth Gilbert (37:47)

And we did a little of both.

Rich Roll (37:49)

A little?

Elizabeth Gilbert (37:49)

Yeah, yeah, we did a little of both. You know, I mean, she did write an incredible memoir, did a tour together, and I helped her get it published. Like there were things I was doing for her. I mean, I'm very careful in the book to say there's two things I don't want to do. I don't want to pathologize every single instance of this relationship and I also don't want to idealize. So that's also why it took me so long to unthread this book, like, where's the truth here? That's somewhere between pathology and idealization. Because we loved each other a lot and we cared for each other a lot.

Rich Roll (38:18)

It comes across very.

Elizabeth Gilbert (38:19)

And we helped each other a lot.

Rich Roll (38:20)

And I think you do do an excellent job of showing, like, listen, like, this was an incredible person who had insane gifts, who was so courageous and unafraid and capable and cool, was this person that everyone wanted to hang. All these amazing qualities, right? And also this, you know, self destructive thing inside of her.

Elizabeth Gilbert (38:42)

And this was a person. And here's what I could. And so once I'm blinded by need now, I cannot see the full truth of you. Because once I've idealized you and pedestalized you and decided that you're my solution and that you're my drug and you're the reason I don't have to suffer anymore, it's imperative that you not have feet of clay. You can't. I mean, this is a child's idealization of an adult. It's like you are my. I mean, I made her into my higher power. Like absolutely. I was like in any circumstance where I would now go to what I call my higher power, where I would now get silent and pray and meditate and ask source, what should I do? I called Ray and said, what should I do? And she would tell me great advice most of the time about what to do. But what I wasn't seeing through that haze of idealization was, for instance, this was somebody who had 13 years sober. I mean, this was somebody who was like a hard, low bottom drug addict. Like living on a park bench with a needle in her arm. Drug addict, multiple stays in jails. Like hard, hard, hard, hard. Drug addict who finally found recovery in 12 step and whose ego decided after a certain amount of time in 12 step that she didn't need anymore and decided that she didn't need to go to the rooms anymore. And announced to me and to the world, I am no longer an addict. I've cured myself of my addiction. Cause I'm Rhea fucking Elias.

Rich Roll (40:06)

But the best part is that she says, I wanna start drinking wine because my friends are pressuring. It's like she put it on her.

Elizabeth Gilbert (40:14)

Friends, her family, she said they had an intervention. My friends had a. I don't even know if this is true. I doubt that it is. Like, I think we should.

Rich Roll (40:20)

We need you to start drinking the wine.

Elizabeth Gilbert (40:21)

We need you to start drinking the wine. Cause it's uncomfortable for us when we're at the table drinking and you're not. And she's telling me this, and she's saying, I'm gonna start drinking again. Oh, and by the way, don't tell any of my friends in 12 step. Cause they're gonna be really upset. So this is gonna be our little secret. This from the woman who taught me we're only as sick as our secrets. Right? So she comes to me and says, like, I want to start drinking. It's not a big deal. Alcohol's not a problem for me. I'm a heroin addict, not an alcoholic. Don't tell anyone. And I also kind of hate alcohol. And I was like, okay. You know, and because I had created a construct in which everything she did was right. Strong, powerful, and cool. I'm like, ray is so cool. Like, Ray is so cool. She's the addict who can drink, you know? So this is the kind of stuff that, like, when you give your power away and you give your perspective away and you give your wisdom away, what you're left with is just, I have to go along with whatever you say, because I've fully given you my power. I don't have the power to be like, hang on. What? Your friends had a reverse intervention, and they told you they want you to start drinking? That doesn't even make sense.

Rich Roll (41:28)

Yeah, it collapses on top of itself.

Elizabeth Gilbert (41:31)

You know, Instead, I'm like, let's get a bottle of wine, you know? And so I can see now that she was slipping back into losing herself at the same time that I was losing myself into her. So, of course, the end game was a disaster.

Rich Roll (41:48)

I'm curious around your response now that you've had time to reflect on it. When she gets diagnosed with cancer, which that was like, 2016, like, in a perverse way, that is almost your opportunity to really lock it in, because now she really can be dependent upon you.

Elizabeth Gilbert (42:10)

I will take care of your every need.

Rich Roll (42:11)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (42:12)

And I remember in the horror of the diagnosis, and some things happened very quickly. There's that famous line in F. Scott Fitzgerald about first slowly, then quickly. It's been used a million times, but that's often how benders go, you know? Like, first she sort of slowly drank Amister bitters, and then she sort of slowly drank wine. And then she started smoking cigarettes again. And then she started doing mushrooms and ayahuasca and MDMA again. And then it's like, ooh, we might as well have a little cocaine, you know? And then it just like, builds and builds and builds. But the slow love story that I was having with her escalated immediately upon that announcement that she had six months to live. I'd been hiding that love for her from me, from her, and from my husband up until that point. But the thought that she was going to die very quickly was the energizing excuse that was needed for me to finally say this thing that I hadn't been saying for years, which is, I am in love with this person. And I left my marriage to go to be with her. And I remember, even in the horror of I'm losing the foundational person in my life in the first weeks of her diagnosis, I remember showing up at her apartment with my suitcase and saying, I'm not going anywhere. I mean, like a threat. When I see it now, it's like. It's kind of a threatening thing to say to somebody. I didn't say, do you want me to stay? I just said, I'm not going anywhere. And for somebody who can't take care of herself and gets her worth and value and esteem from what I can give to others and then have reflected back to me about my value from what I'm giving, this is a perfect storm. Because the feeling I had was one of utter. I remember this deep calm where I was like, now I know what I'm here for. My purpose on earth is clear. I am here to serve Raya's every need. I don't have to have an identity anymore. I don't have to have any needs. I can completely abdicate responsibility for myself. No one would blame me for it. I mean, I'm being heroic. I'm showing up for somebody who's dying.

Rich Roll (44:12)

Yeah, that's the added bonus. Look what a good person I am.

Elizabeth Gilbert (44:16)

Liquid, and I'm an angel.

Rich Roll (44:17)

This other person, which is what I've.

Elizabeth Gilbert (44:19)

Always wanted to be.

Rich Roll (44:20)

So it's this weird thing because on the one hand, there's this liberation from the marriage that wasn't working. Like you were able to stand up and speak your truth. And there's a freeing, very healthy kind of piece to that, but only so that you could entrap yourself in a situation and kind of indulge this. This, you know, addictive tendency.

Elizabeth Gilbert (44:44)

Yeah. One of my friends in the rooms, she and I have a. Our sort of daily kind of test of sobriety. Sobriety is kind of easy to chart when you're a substance addict. Like, you're either using, drinking, or drinking.

Rich Roll (44:57)

It's hard to know. When you've realized, it's hard to know.

Elizabeth Gilbert (44:59)

So we're like, so I have a couple kind of markers that I can use. So One, one definition I love of relapse is that in all the relationship programs of 12 step is relapse is returning to your original role in the family system. So good, right? So if I'm the caregiver, if I'm the one who's got to make everyone happy, if I'm the one who has to take care of all the grownups, if I'm the golden child, like, that's a relapse for me. But another way that we sort of test relapse is no abandonment of self. This friend and I, that's our motto. Like, no abandonment of self. So at the end of the day, like, was there anywhere in this day where I said yes when I meant no? Like, when my body said no, but my mouth said yes, where I people pleased my way through some sort of situation in order to gain love, approval, validation, and acceptance. Where I infantilized myself because I was in a really difficult situation and I didn't want to face it, and I tried to make someone else do it. It's like, no, you be the grown up and you do this thing, because I can't. I don't want to. So those are sort of these markers, but handing over of the power of your own life force to pour into somebody else is what I used to call love and what I thought was love. And now when I see it, there's a sign. Rhea was a songwriter and a musician, and we used to write music together. And there was a song I wrote for her that at the time that I wrote it, I'm like, this song is so beautiful and it's so romantic, and it encapsulates completely this story. And she wrote the music for it and she sang it and performed it. And I was like, this is so great. And one of the lines in it, in my voice at her, was, I'm just trying to give you a home. My body and life are your own, right? It's like this complete. And in our culture, we actually kind of like reward that as what a beautiful romantic story. But when I hear those lyrics now, I'm like, yikes. Like, my body is yours. Like, my life is yours, my money is yours. My energy is yours. I'm your home. Where's mine If I'm making my whole existence into your home? Home. There's no one home here, you know? And I see that now. And I'm like, my little cousin, when she was little, used to have a little seal and we used to play this game where the seal was trapped and we would Just say, help. Help. I'm trapped in kelp. And I look at that. Like, I look at that now, and I'm like, help. Help. I'm trapped in kelp. Like, what am I doing? And I'm calling that love, and I'm calling that friendship, and I'm calling that nobility and sacrifice. But what it also actually is is complete and total abandonment of self.

Rich Roll (47:35)

How much self awareness did you have prior to going into the program around this? Like, presumably. I mean, you're the E Pray Love person, right? Like, you're in touch with your past and your trauma. You know, there's therapy, there's all these other things that you're doing that I would imagine gave you a glimpse of some of these patterns and habits prior to, you know, kind of all the chaos that ensued later. And why was that not enough addict.

Elizabeth Gilbert (48:05)

To addict, you know, setting you up, that you have a disease? You know, addicts have a disease that lies to them and says, you don't have a disease, right? So the first person we fool is ourselves, right? So there's like a section of Eat, Pray, Love that I quote in this new book where I describe my addictive tendencies, and that was 20 years ago. Like, I could have written a doctoral thesis by the time I was 30 called why I Act like this. Like, I totally know the psychological reasons why I act like this. It didn't stop me from acting like that, right? Like, what they say in the room is discovery is not recovery. Like, knowing why self awareness will avail you nothing of nothing, right? Like, I was an expert on my dysfunction, and every single time I was like, this isn't that though. Even though it matches up completely with the fingerprint of what I always do, I'm not doing it in the same way that Raya was. Like, the drinking that I'm doing isn't a problem. It's not a substance. Drinking and drugs are not the same thing. I'm an addict, but I can drink. It's not okay. And I was like, all right. And she was like, all right.

Rich Roll (49:09)

She's so honest about everything else.

Elizabeth Gilbert (49:11)

She's so honest. She's so candid. She's not hiding it. She's telling everyone she's doing it, right? So I have infinite capacity to be a PR agent for my own bullshit, you know? And I have to. I mean, addicts. One of the things I write in the book is that addicts have to lie. Addicts have to live double lives because they can't. Until you find recovery, you can't live without the thing that you're using. And so you've got to create these incredibly elaborate sort of narratives to pretend that you're not doing what is so obvious that you're doing. I mean, Rhea said to me during her spiral, when I confronted her, since when is cocaine addictive? She looked me in the eye. She looked me in the eye with these, like, pupils like this. And she's like, since when is cocaine even? She's, like, twitching. And I'm like, what did you just say? And she said, it never used to be back in my day. And I'm like, you're amazing. Addicts are amazing. We will say anything. And I believe that if you'd hooked her up to a lie detector test at that point, she would have believed what she was saying.

Rich Roll (50:13)

Right, of course. Since when it comes to that's amazing.

Elizabeth Gilbert (50:16)

Tim, is one of my favorite lines I've ever heard in my entire life. God bless her. And so I was doing precisely what I have done a million times. I was leaving someone to go be with someone else, which is my pattern, while at the same time saying, it's not like that this time, Even though it 100% is.

Rich Roll (50:35)

Had you ever not been in a relationship, did you just go. You were just overlapping them all along.

Elizabeth Gilbert (50:41)

From stacked, like cordwood, one after another. I mean, I started when I was 15. I would have started a lot easier earlier if I was prettier. Like, I was trying to do it earlier, but, you know, it wasn't until I got over my, like, ugly duckling thing that I could make it work.

Rich Roll (50:54)

But just can't not be in a relationship.

Elizabeth Gilbert (50:57)

Can't. And there was a part of me that always knew that I was missing. I was robbing myself of something. I knew. I knew that it's important to learn how to be with yourself and to learn how to be alone. So the only time I didn't do it, there was like a 9, 10 month period during the Eat, Pray, love journey when I didn't do it. But then I met somebody who was so loving y right to it, so attentive and so loving and so dialed into me. And I was like, I can't deny myself this. Like, this person's so good to me and so kind to me.

Rich Roll (51:30)

This is why it's such an innately human story. Like, you go on this journey with Eat, Pray, love, and you meet your maker and probe the depths of your soul trying to find these answers. You return, you meet this man, you get married, and you write this book. And it's this smash sensation success, and then you kind of slowly slink back into self will and old habits, and then you're just kind of doing your thing and you're like, it's fine, right?

Elizabeth Gilbert (52:03)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (52:03)

And you need this comet to collide with your planet in order to wake up and realize, like, oh, the work wasn't done when I left Bali. There's still more that I have to do that I have to look at. What is it about needing these incredibly painful moments in order to get us to awaken to ourselves and make those changes that are obvious to everyone else except ourselves? It's such an intractable human problem.

Elizabeth Gilbert (52:29)

It's adorable. We're so cute. We're so cute and hopeless and adorable and loved. And when I bring that up with what I call God, and I want to be really careful when I use the word God, that there's a Rob Bell line that I love where he was always like, whatever God you don't believe in, I also don't believe in that God. So we're good. Any God trauma that anybody has. But it's a word I use for the mystery that doesn't have any other word that I do feel, loves me and wants me to be okay. And the way that it speaks to me is like, oh, honey, we tried as gently as we could to get your attention about this. Like, we tried, right?

Rich Roll (53:10)

There were a lot of knocks before it got loud.

Elizabeth Gilbert (53:12)

If we could have done this without sending the comment, but why can't we.

Rich Roll (53:14)

Just heed that gentle nod?

Elizabeth Gilbert (53:16)

Because you can't see what you can't see. And I think when you're somebody who's accustomed to being very powerful, which is something like, there's another element of me where I'm like, I'm the manifestor. Like, I can create things. Like, I can make. Like, I can do stuff in the world. I'm a person who can do stuff very successfully. I'm accustomed to being successful. Rhea was accustomed to being powerful. She was accustomed to walking into the room and being the effortless alpha in every room that she walked into. Why the hell could she not manage a little bit of cocaine? Like, why the hell could she not manage a little bit of alcohol? It's like, this is her Achilles heel, right? I'm accustomed to manifesting beautiful things. So why can't I have a normal relationship like a normal person? And the thing that I find so touching and that I come back to again and again about addiction that I find so sweet about us, I say us as addicts of all sorts is like. Cause you can't. Like, there are certain things that I can't do that other people can do. And I just know that now, and I hope I don't forget that. But, like, other people can do things that I can't do. I have a friend who's a ferocious alcoholic, and we were at a wedding together, and somebody handed her a glass of flu champagne to make the wedding toast. And she just went like, you know, it says in the Big Book of aa, we recoil as if from a hot flame, right? And, you know, she's got, like, nine years sober. And she just was like. You know, she just, like, backed up from this thing. And the person was like, it's just for the photo. Like, you can surely hold a flute of champagne safely in your hand. You're not going to drink it. And she just said, I cannot do things that other normal people can do. Like, this is what I have to know about myself in this regard. I am not normal. And I think what I was doing for my entire relationship history was trying to, like, I wrote a whole book about marriage, trying to figure out, how do I contain this thing, how do I do this successfully, how do I be normal? And I'm not. And that's lovely. I'm just not. This is how it is. And that abnormality that brought so much pain and suffering and shame and degradation is also my path to God, right? Because it's where my power ends. And if I were as good at relationships as I am at everything else, I wouldn't need a God. I'd just be out here, given seminars.

Rich Roll (55:40)

I mean, it would find you. It would find you in some other.

Elizabeth Gilbert (55:42)

Way, you know, and, you know, I'm so good at life, you know, here's what's great.

Rich Roll (55:47)

Here's what's great. You're cruising around, you know, America doing these workshops with Rob Bell on creativity. You know, I adore Rob. Like, what a. What a wonderful human being. And the two of you together, it's like a supernova. It's like an amazing energy. These two human beings who have this spiritual connection and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that creativity is something divine. It's something that we can court and make ourselves available to flow through us. But it is not something that is generated inside of us and it descends upon us when we open the portal, are in a place of ease and. And allowing. Like, you know, all of that. Like, you're the best at this. There is no question that you are tapped into something very real and deeply Spiritual. And yet you're walking around with this God sized hole in your soul, determined to fill it with externalities. What applies to creativity doesn't apply to relationships. You have compartmentalized your spirituality and you know, God came down and gave you a reckoning and said, you're surrendered. You're like, surrender is half baked, right? You have it for this. You're very clear about that. You helped all these people and you've been able to build this beautiful, creative, inspirational life in this one area. And yet you can't seem to understand that you need to apply it not just to this other area that's going sideways, but to everything. And I'm curious, like, where's Rob Bell in this? Is he going, hey, Liz, is he seeing this? Is he not seeing this? Like, where's the blind spot?

Elizabeth Gilbert (57:35)

Oh, for me, like, calling me out or being like, as your friend.

Rich Roll (57:38)

Not for him necessarily, but it's like the, the blind spot is what's interesting because we all have them. Like, I'm not like judging you. I have a million of them. You know what I mean? It's like we think we've.

Elizabeth Gilbert (57:47)

I don't feel judged at all. I feel like you just. I don't feel judged. I feel the, the delicious velvety softness I always feel in the truth. You know what I mean? Like, that's just what you just said is true. Like, I'm like, yep, that you just what that guy said.

Rich Roll (58:01)

And so, yeah, Earth School says we've got another class for you.

Elizabeth Gilbert (58:05)

Right, Right, right. We hate to do this, honey, and we'll do it as gently as we can, but here we go. I don't think the definition of a blind spot is that you can't see it, you know? I mean, that's where the beautiful human quality of mercy has to come in. Of not instead of like, how could you not see this? It's like, of course you can't see this. Like, of course, of course you can't. I feel the only compassionate way to look at an addict is not like, why do you keep doing this? But like, why in the world wouldn't you, you know, like, why in the world wouldn't you? And nothing can save me but a miracle, like psychology can't save me. Like, my own massive creativity. I mean, how many times did I say precisely what you just said, Rich? Like, I wish I could be in relationship with people the way I am in relationship with creativity. It's so clear to me how this works in creativity. It's so effortless. It's so beautiful. It's so warm. It's so soft. It's so free. There's no stakes. I've got no attachment to the outcome. I can. This just happened a couple years ago. I can write. Like, spend four years, write a book.

Rich Roll (59:15)

Yeah, you wrote this novel. And then.

Elizabeth Gilbert (59:17)

And then just be like, oh, okay. And just not publish it and not lose a minute of sleep. Sleep over it. Right.

Rich Roll (59:21)

That was insane. I remember talking to Adam about that. I was like, is she mad? Like, what was the interior experience of that?

Elizabeth Gilbert (59:27)

Mellow.

Rich Roll (59:28)

But I know you were like, it's.

Elizabeth Gilbert (59:29)

Cool.

Rich Roll (59:31)

Doing it for the love of doing it.

Elizabeth Gilbert (59:32)

Exactly. But I can't. That level of detachment, that level of non attachment to outcome, I have never been able to do that with a person. You know, it's just like once I feel that they have something that I need, like all addicts, you can't take it away from me until it's got claw marks in it. So that's my thing. That's what I came here in this lifetime to address. And that's what I'm doing to the best of my capacity with the help of a very amused God, you know, who's like, all right, honey, how many more times you want to do this? You done yet? If you're done yet, come with me. If you're not done, go try it again. Like, go try it again.

Rich Roll (60:23)

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Elizabeth Gilbert (63:13)

Which time when I came into the.

Rich Roll (63:14)

Program, I don't know. Well, you tell me.

Elizabeth Gilbert (63:16)

When I came into the program the first time I came as a spectator and so a friend 12 stepped me and was like, you gotta go check this out. And I went and I checked it out and I was like, these people are super sick. You know, like these people are really not. Well, I'm not nearly as fucked up as these people. The literature's good, I get it. I'm very smart. I'm a lot smarter than other people. So that's a possibility. Just gonna read the book in an afternoon and download it and be like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. I see that. Definitely not going to get a sponsor. Definitely not going to ever make a program call with another fellow. Because these sick people, I don't really want to deal with these tragic. Like this is how I was seeing it and I was there for a couple months and then I was like, I think I've, you know, I'm an accelerated student so I think I got it. I'm cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the lessons. I don't need this. And I went out and picked up again, like instantly picked up another person and instantly did the thing I do. So after that, kicked my ass. And this was after Rhea died. Like one comment wasn't enough. It's Never enough. I'm a low bottom sex and love addict. I have to have many more serious consequences than a normal person to finally give up. But then I came the second time. I was like, okay, got it. Let's do this. Now. Who will be my sponsor? Let me take 10 phone numbers. Let's do the steps. Let me put this thing down. And. And I was still negotiating. There was a beautiful moment at the beginning of my recovery where I said to my higher power, who I feel like I can hear and who hears me, I said, if I do this, if I do this right and I'm good and I do the steps and I get a sponsee and I, like, am the perfect A student, will you send me another great love story? And instantly I heard, I will promise you no such thing. Yeah, you know, I also.

Rich Roll (65:17)

It's not a conditional thing. It's not a quid pro quo. Like, the gift of sobriety is sobriety.

Elizabeth Gilbert (65:22)

But I want the cash and prizes that come after. And the invitation that I felt at that moment was, are you willing to. Are you willing to fully put this thing down? Are you not willing to just do, like, 90 days of no contact with your qualifiers or a year of celibacy and working on yourself? Are you willing to. This is my deepest dream. This is always my best idea for how to be well. And God was like, will you. What I heard was like, will you put it on the divine fire and not take it back out? Like, just here, you can have this. You can have this dream. You can have this fantasy that the entire culture has celebrated. I mean, Eat, Pray, Love ends with me as Julia Roberts literally sailing into a sunset with Javier Burdett. Like, that's the story. Like, it's literally. And like, that's the story I had built and created. And God was like, can I have that? Can I have that dream? Like, can I have that dream? Can I have all. And what I often hear God saying about surrender is like, can you come to me with your hands empty? Can you come to me with nothing a little bit hidden behind your back as an ulterior motive of if then. If I do this, then maybe I can, you know, And I did, I did was like, I pushed all the chips in. I'm like, I'm putting this down. I'm putting this down with no promise that I'll ever get anything in return except a life that is, for the first time in my life, manageable, which is the gift of sobriety. Like, I can actually handle my life today. Today I'M okay. So that's the only deal that requires.

Rich Roll (67:03)

A tremendous reservoir of willingness. And willingness is something I've been thinking a lot about lately, and I want to run this idea by you that I've been thinking a lot about and working on your ideas around ideas in big magic. That's something I think about a lot. Like the notion that ideas are out there in the ether, and when one occurs to you, or you grab it, or it descends down upon you, it is your responsibility or obligation to bring expression to it, or it will evaporate, return to the ether, and make itself available for somebody who is willing to do that in the way that ideas work. I think there's something to be said that's analogous around the way that willingness works, because I don't think that willingness is something that can necessarily be self generated. You can't. You can, like, be willing to be willing, but that's sort of like wanting to want something that you don't actually want. You can aspire to willingness, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. I think willingness is something that arrives from somewhere else, much like an idea. It strikes you and then you have a brief moment of time where it's your responsibility to exercise that willingness through some kind of action, some kind of contrary action. But if you don't do that, it will pass and evaporate. Willingness is like this very fickle thing that I can't quite put my finger on, but it's so powerful when it does arrive, if you have the awareness and the presence of mind to recognize it and take that contrary action. Because in that moment where you did have the willingness, this extreme capacity to turn everything over, it's a very dramatic act. There were many days, and probably darker days, more desperate times when you didn't have that and couldn't make that choice.

Elizabeth Gilbert (69:11)

I always say I wish I'd found recovery programs in this problem earlier. But I also need to call myself out on how very unlikely it would have been that I would have availed myself of them. Because I think I still felt like I can. I can solve this, right? I can solve this with my intellect. If I learn more. I'm a great student, so it's like, I'll learn more. I felt like I divorce proofed my second marriage by writing this book called Committed, where I spent three years researching the history of marriage, all the sociological data around marriage, interviewing everybody that I met about marriage, and then collating it into this book where I was like, now I'm divorce proof. Because I have Every single piece of information that there is about marriage. Because I never want to go through a divorce again. So I'm like, I'm going to just apply this. I'm just going to learn my way into safety, which is not the same thing as being willing to not know. You know, one of the things when I was going through withdrawal and withdrawal from the dream, right? Withdrawal from the dream, the fantasy that someday I'm going to get this thing right. Like, the humility of being like, I might never get this thing right. I might not be here to get this thing right. This thing maybe can't be made right. Like, all of that and the deep loneliness, the deep loneliness. Like, the searing physical pain of waking up in my bed in trauma, literally shaking and crying like a baby, and this voice being, like, hysterical inside me, being like, this is not okay. Like, this is way too much. We need someone here. We can't, like, go get someone. Like, go get some. You know how to go get someone. Go get someone. It doesn't matter who. Like, doesn't matter who. Just a body needs to be here in this bed. This is not okay. And sitting with myself through night after night of that and calling and just being very unhappy and miserable and uncomfortable, like, all withdrawal and calling my sponsor and saying, when will this end? And what will be my reward? You know, like, what will be my reward for all this discomfort? And when will this end? And she said, it'll end when it ends. And when it ends, it won't be you who ended it. Spoken like a true right. It'll end when it ends. And when it ends, it won't be you who ended it. And can you live without knowing what the reward is? Can you do, she said, can you do what your sober predecessors before you did and walk through this withdrawal without knowing what you're going to get you who love to know? I mean, knowing is how I stay safe. And I found there to be something. Like when she introduced the concept of a lineage. Like others before you have done this. Like others before you. I don't know why that makes me just want to cry right now. But like others before you have been in this much pain. Like, this pain is not original to you. And the people who were in this much pain before you found a series of actions that they could take that kept them out of extreme degradation and suffering. And can you just walk where they walked without knowing why you're even doing it? And I think I don't know whether my willingness to do that was a decision of my own will or if it was a gift from the mystery to be like, this kid has suffered enough. Let's just put her on this path. Let's just make her willing to be on this path. Maybe she's had enough of this particular kind of pain.

Rich Roll (73:03)

When did the idea of doing this extended celibacy come in?

Elizabeth Gilbert (73:09)

I didn't make a decision to be extendedly celibate. I made a decision to leave that up to God. So I'm not in a celibacy experiment. God is in charge of what I do in this realm. I don't make any decisions around this realm. So for me to say I'm going to be celibate is just as ridiculous as me saying I'm going to stay faithful in this marriage or I'm not going to be attracted to this person. I'm powerless over this. So the relationship that I'm in is what's your will for me, God? What is your will for me that would be of the highest use of me and service of me to this gift of life that you've given to me and to others where I would cause the least harm and be able to do the most service. And so far, you know, as of like 20 to 4, on this day, six years into my recovery program, God's been like, I want you doing just what you're doing and I will notify you if that needs to change. And if that needs to change, it's not going to be your idea, it'll be my idea. But you know, actually the shorter answer is when I say to my higher power, should I be dating? God's like, lol. No, like, and other people in my program do date, you know, and they date with sober dating plan. I mean, I have a sober dating plan. I've got a document in place for if that day should come. And I hope that I have the sobriety to use it if that day should come. But for now, the answer is we have so much healing to do of the. It's not just that I have so much healing to do of the damage to me from 35 years of abandonment, of self degradation, of body, disregard for my own well being. Like there is so much healing to. That's a long time. I was deep in the paint in this thing for a long time, right? So there's a lot of amends that I'm making to myself about things I'm sorry that I made myself do in order to get love, approval, validation and acceptance. And so the immense process for me is like, we're not gonna do that now. Like, I'm not gonna make you go do that. Like, I will take care of you so that you don't have to degrade yourself so much so that somebody else will. But there's a lot of healing I have to do with people who I harmed. And that's been a really long process. Because the immense process is difficult when these kind of actions hurt people at such a profound level. And so there's a, there's a lot of delicacy in terms of like, is it even safe for them? If I approach, is this a person who ever wants to hear my name again? Like, I did the worst thing to this person. Like, do they even want to, you know, so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of healing. I think of it as like healing a wetlands. You know, it's like these heavy metals that are in there take a long time to get out. And I don't want to rush. I don't have a deadline on that process. Like that's an open ended process. So that's where I am.

Rich Roll (76:16)

The amends, you know, it's a case by case thing, right? Like when is it a living amends? When is it appropriate and in the best interest of everybody to directly approach somebody? Like, it's, it's hard to know. And when those, when those harms are severe and cut deep, you know, sometimes it's better to leave them be and to just, you know, kind of of change your behavior going forward or you know, write a letter to them that you don't send or you know, just treat other people, you know, in a manner befitting your recovery. Like it's, it's, it's a hard thing.

Elizabeth Gilbert (76:50)

It's really hard.

Rich Roll (76:51)

But when it's unresolved, it also makes it more difficult to move forward and release the baggage. And so you're still somewhat connected to those feelings of, of guilt and shame that surround it. But when you take dating off the table and you can no longer export or externalize how you feel about yourself upon the opinions of others, you're in this rare place of solitude where you can do that work and you can begin to exercise self care. And that gets into this really important piece around self love, which is something I still, so many years later, I struggle with so deeply. It feels so cringy, the whole prospect of it all, because deep down I still harbor all of these like negative emotions about myself that creep up and start to infect my relationships. And there's a whole terrain that still is out there for me to travel.

Elizabeth Gilbert (77:54)

I try to avoid using terms self love and self hatred because self love can feel really cringy. And self hatred is so dark. And I just think of it in terms of friendliness and non friendliness. Like, the thing. The way I'm speaking to myself in this, I can, like, do a little assessment and be. The way I'm speaking to myself right now isn't very friendly. It's not even about loving. It's just like, this is unfriendly. Like, I would never speak to a friend this way. I would never degrade a friend this way. Is this a friendly moment or an unfriendly moment? Do you know the story about the Dalai Lama and Sharon Salzberg, the meditation teacher? Have you heard this story?

Liz Gilbert (78:32)

I don't think so.

Elizabeth Gilbert (78:33)

So when the Dalai Lama came to the west for the first time through California, and it was probably in the 70s, 60s, early 70s, I think. I don't have the exact date, but he. Nobody really kind of knew who he was. He wasn't this huge global figure yet. And some people, I'm going to guess around Esalen brought him, you know, like, in that sort of circle, like people who were philosophers and thinkers and meditators. And they had a kind of summit and they brought them and invited various therapists and thinking people and academics to meet this kind of obscure Tibetan monk. And Sharon Salzberg, the great meditation teacher who teaches a lot about Metta loving Kindness meditation, was in the room. She was a young meditator, and she had the opportunity to ask him a question. And his English was very poor at the time. And she said, what is the traditional prescribed within your lineage? What is the traditional prescribed cure or treatment for self hatred? And he had to talk to a translator for 15 minutes before he even understood the question. He kept thinking he was hearing it wrong because he kept saying, who's the person that you're having a conflict with? Like, he kept coming back and being like, who's your enemy? Who's the one that you're in trouble with? And they kept saying, like. And he's like, but that you're your own. That doesn't even make any sense why you would be your own enemy because you're the only one. Like, you're you. Why would you be an enemy to you? And he was bewildered by this question. And then he was even more bewildered when he sort of took a survey around the room and was like, does everyone have this? Like, is this a thing? Like, is this. And Everyone's. Every Westerner, every Western hand was up. And he was. As a person of compassion, he was devastated. And he said. His exact quote was, I used to think that I understood the mind, but I find this very, very disturbing. He came away from that, and his sort of approach toward the west was, we're gonna have to start with this because this is not okay. And this absence of a sense of just inherent. Your sovereign right to feel friendly toward yourself has been so violated and decimated in this culture that we think it's natural to hate ourselves when it's actually the very, very furthest thing. So that's where I sort of start with people, you know, and where I start with. With myself. And the way that I see it now on a sort of cosmic level is I believe that my little soul spirit that came here to come to Earth School, that God or whatever or the great mystery gave this one to me. I don't know totally what's going on here, but I know that I'm not you. I mean, I know we're at one level, we're all one, but in this duality, like, you're having a totally different experience over there than I am. Like, so there's a rich guy, he's in there, and then I'm in here, and I'm in here talking to you. But, like, this one was entrusted to me to carry through this experience of Earth School. And I. Like, now the way I think of it is they must have thought I could take care of it, you know, or they wouldn't have entrusted me with something as sacred as a soul, right? So now the way I see it is, like, all the rage and resentment and fury that I felt at Ray and many other people, where I'm like, you abandoned me. Like, you betrayed me. We had a contract. You were supposed to take care of me, you know? And it's like, good guess and a totally innocent misunderstanding. Like, this is mine to carry through this world, right? And I'm just learning how to do this. I'm just learning. So I'm just learning how to look in and be like, are you all right in there? How can I serve you? What do you need? Like, how can we. I can see you're suffering. This little one is suffering in here. And when I was going through withdrawal and having those nights where that addict voice that's trying to get me. What I need is, like, jonesing and being like, we need to get someone here. You know what I was saying out loud in my bed. And I also remember Having this feeling like, I'm so glad I'm alone. I'm so glad I'm living alone so that I can do all this stuff that would look very weird to someone, you know, like flopping about, ptsd, shaking, talking to myself, comforting myself. I'm like, I'm actually really glad that I've got this container of this house that I live in where I'm not pulling anyone into this drama with me. I'm actually in the crucible with myself. And the only people here are the ones who need to be here, which is, like, me and God. And I would just say out loud, I would say to her, I know. I totally know why you want that. It makes so much sense. I know your whole story, and I know why you want me to get someone here. And I know what you think you're gonna get out of that. And you're not wrong. Like, that would actually be a fix for tonight. Like, it would work. It always works. Like, all drugs. It's like it would.

Rich Roll (83:47)

You just. You play it out to its conclusion.

Elizabeth Gilbert (83:50)

You play the tape out, and it's like. And then I would just. Do you remember all the other times we did that? And do you remember how it always ended? And it always ended worse, so we're just gonna not do that. And I was watching this division in me, like, this thing was trying to run away from me. And it was like, I don't trust you to take care of me. I wanna go find someone else. And I'm like, I get why you don't trust me. You shouldn't. All I've ever done is abandon you. But it's like, I'm in parenting school at the Y, learning how to take care of you now. And I'm not gonna always be great at it, but you are my priority now. And even if I'm not always a great mom, I'm here, and I'm not going anywhere. And I'm not gonna let us bring someone else in here because that actually ends up harming us. And it's okay if you don't like that, and it's okay if you feel like that's enough and we're gonna. And I don't care if we're up all night doing this. Like, I am not leaving you. And I think the thing that I have always most needed to hear is, I don't care if we're up all night doing this. I am not leaving you. You cannot exhaust me. You are not too much for me, and I'm the only person I now believe I'm the only person in the world who I am not too much for. Because it shouldn't be anybody else's job to do that. Like, that's too big a job. They have to be doing that for themselves. They've got their own neglected, abandoned kid in there who needs them, who they would abandon if they tried to do that for me. Right. So it never should have been anybody else's job. But I didn't know that. That. And I couldn't know that until I knew it.

Rich Roll (85:20)

It's not dissimilar from the way again, like back to creativity, like the idea that you talk about, like, oh, the negative voice, the self defeating voice, like, we're going on a road trip, you can come, but you know, you got to sit over there and if you pipe up, you're going in the back seat. Like, you're not allowed to, like, raise your voice. Like, you know I love you and you know you can. I'm not abandoning you. Like, you're part of me, but like there's rules, right?

Elizabeth Gilbert (85:45)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (85:46)

So good at setting boundaries around that. But here we are. This is the same situation. It's just that you have to cleave off a deeper part of yourself that you have a harder time disassociating with or letting go of. Right. The wounded child that needs care that you're. That you've got bottled up in here. Like the negative creative voice that's easy for you, you know, but this is the tough one. But on some version, it's like Russian nesting dolls. Like, this is just. It's the same thing, right? Yes.

Elizabeth Gilbert (86:17)

That's so well put, Rich. Exactly, exactly. And Raya used to say there's always a. I mean, I think it's a common recovery phrase, but there's always a trap door under every bottom. Like just when you think you've hit rock bottom, there's a trap door and you can always go lower. But there's also always a ladder of Ascension. You know, you can always evolve higher. Like you can always. Your soul can always be sort of more polished. And I think a lot of sort of the journey of life is like you start to get rid of the, you know, the external things that you've been using to not go to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of the thing. And when they're all gone, then it's just you and the little creature at the bottom of the hole, you know, who, when I met her, frankly, looked at me and had no hope. I mean, she looked at me. She had the thousand mile stare of a 10 tour of duty soldier. And I was like, what do you need from me? And she was like, you will always abandon me. You will always abandon me. You'll always choose everybody else's comfort over my safety. Always. You'll always people please your way into destroying. You'll always give everything that's mine away to everyone. Like, I can't count on you for anything. And I was like, you're right. You're right. Let me see what I can do about it. Let's start over.

Rich Roll (87:42)

Like, all these things, though, they track back to childhood wounds and traumas. I'm sure you have some awareness around, you know, how this pattern originated and what locked it in. Beyond 12 step, are there other healing modalities that have been helpful, like internal family systems or. I mean, there's a, you know, there's a panel of stuff out there.

Elizabeth Gilbert (88:04)

Yeah, ifs has been great. I would say for me, the two modalities that I think have actually given me transformation because everything helps, but I don't think helping is quite the same as having a transformative awakening experience where you feel like you're actually being changed.

Rich Roll (88:23)

Say more about that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (88:24)

So I did talk therapy for probably two and a half decades, and it was helpful. Like, it's helpful. It was such a band aid. It was so helpful to go in there and talk about my problems and have somebody compassionately listen. But I didn't stop doing those things. Right. I didn't. Some people, it may actually transform. So for me, it was almost like a methadone clinic. It's like, I'm gonna go get a little bit of love and connection with this person that's gonna be able to keep me alive for the next week until I go get another. But I don't. You know what I mean?

Rich Roll (88:56)

Using the therapist to like, meet your addictive need.

Elizabeth Gilbert (88:59)

Yeah, the validation. You'll be a kind of temporary mommy for me. And comfort and understanding. And then these little awakenings where it's like, oh, an epiphany. I understand more, but I would go out and do the same thing again. So the two things that I feel like are the only two things that for me have actually made me not do those two things again. Those things again. One is 12 step and the other is Byron, Katie's work and self inquiry. And the four questions like that.

Rich Roll (89:26)

Right? It's called the work.

Elizabeth Gilbert (89:28)

Right, it's called the work.

Rich Roll (89:29)

I don't know that much about her.

Elizabeth Gilbert (89:31)

Stuff, but I find it to be really that it creates radical transformations of thought within my mind. It asks me to have a really open mind and to be able to sort of jujitsu flip my beliefs, where all of a sudden I kind of physically can't believe that anymore.

Rich Roll (89:48)

It has something to do with basically just challenging everything you believe is true, right? Like, what if it's not true? Your negative thoughts, like kind of releasing your attitud attachment to ideas and identity.

Elizabeth Gilbert (89:59)

Is that right? So, yeah, a good one would be Raya abandoned me. I'm in that belief and I'm suffering enormously because I'm in that belief. So anyone would agree with it. Like, anyone would have looked at her, like, checked out on the couch, spending money on cocaine with the needle in her arm, be like, sure looks that way. Like, I could definitely get a consensus of people to back me up on that. But. But what that work would do would be to ask me to dare to have an open enough mind to. I can always go back to the belief later. But would you sit in meditation and ask these four questions of this belief? And the first one is, is it true that Rhea abandoned me? And the answer to that can only be yes or no. So you have to really think about, like, is it true she banned in me? The second question is if the first answer was yes, the next question is, can you absolutely know that it's true? And that's where the ego starts to kind of like disintegrate like a slug when you put salt on it. Because it's like, well, I can't absolutely know much, you know what I mean? It's like it looks true, it feels true, but like, absolutely, it starts to introduce this possibility of doubt to this belief that I'm hanging my whole life on. And then the third question is, how do you respond when you believe that it's true? I'm a victim. I'm enraged. I have to go find someone else to love to make up for what I lost with her. You know, I'm sick and suffering in pain. And who would I be without that belief? Is the fourth question. And it's like, if I didn't have the belief that she abandoned me, I would be free from that rage. And then you do the really cool jujitsu part is you take the original belief and then you try to find three opposites of it and you try them on. She always says, try them on like a pair of shoes and walk around in it and just see how that belief feels. So with that belief, Ray had abandoned me. An exact opposite would Be I abandoned, abandoned me. That actually when I try that on and walk around in it, it feels more true. It's like, oh, wait a minute. That actually kind of feels like I did that. I agreed to go buy all those drugs. I made you into my higher power. I enabled this. Or Rhea abandoned herself. That also feels very true. She abandoned her recovery program, she abandoned her highest ideals, she abandoned her integrity. It depersonalizes it where suddenly it's all like, she didn't do that at me, she was just doing it. Like she was just an addict having her relapse. It wasn't personal to me. Like if I wasn't there, she'd be yelling at a tree. You know what I mean? Like she was just in her own experience. And so you start to take these beliefs and like have the. I love an open mind. So that's why I think I really love that like willingness is an open mind. Like when God said to me, are you willing to put this thing down and just come in with no understanding? Are you willing to be in a beginner's mind? Are you willing to be in a don't know mind? So her work helps me with my like fears and resentments throughout the day of like I've got, you know, because all addiction comes from fear and resentment.

Rich Roll (92:52)

So when those ideas are challenged and you feel an emotional charge, obviously that's when there's something there to explore. Yeah, the resistance is because whatever that idea is, no matter how much it's leading you in the wrong direction, it is doing something for you. It's fulfilling some sort of need that needs to get understood and deconstructed and filled in a different way.

Elizabeth Gilbert (93:18)

It's crying out to be liberated. You know, that's how I see it. Because like a free mind, an open mind, a soft mind isn't getting like, I'm thinking of like a snag in a river, you know, like the, like a free and open mind is just sort of a river flowing and then there's like a bend and like a giant log sort of just gets snagged. And then like all the other logs start hitting. I mean we've seen it so many times in nature where it's just like, just hooked on that thing. And so those like deep endemic beliefs, those self hating, self abandoning, betraying beliefs are like these snags that I just keep getting caught on. And once I'm caught on them, I have no choice but to act out the way I act out. Like if I'm trapped in this belief of Ray abandoned me. I have to go find someone who's not going to abandon me. Like, I have to. Like, if I believe that, like, I have no choice. And of course I'm going to go do that. And if I retreat to wait, oh, I abandoned me. Now I like, I love that. One of the definitions I love of sobriety is sobriety is the restoration of choice because addicts have no choices. It's like you've got to do this thing. You're so compelled. So it's like, well, now I actually have a little bit of space where I can decide how would I like to respond here.

Rich Roll (94:29)

I mean, that's a good way of putting words to the fear that a lot of people have around 12 step recovery, which is this idea of surrendering to a higher power. This notion that you're giving up, that you're relinquishing any agency over your life. It's a very confronting, threatening prospect that is short sighted in that it doesn't, it doesn't fully comprehend the liberation that occurs when you kind of let go of all these attachments and turn it over and really develop this spiritual connection. I mean truly, like that is, you know, this is the. You get your diploma in Earth School when you realize that there is nothing more important important than your divine connection. Like, it's really, that's it, right? And we struggle so much and try to figure that out in all these material ways that lead us astray when all we want to do is kind of go home, right? And it's so hard for us. And I fight it too.

Elizabeth Gilbert (95:35)

And we try to make so many other things our home.

Rich Roll (95:37)

Like, my surrender's conditional. Like, yes, but like, I'm still, I still need to, like, you know, over here is where like said, I in control of this. And the idea of relinquishing control, like that notion that maybe you're not in control, that's where all the juice is. That's when you open the portal to all the good stuff. And it's so difficult to make that leap though.

Elizabeth Gilbert (96:02)

There's a line in the book, I actually did a little illustration of it, that you don't want to surrender because you're afraid of losing control. But you never had control. All you had was anxiety, illusion. All you had was anxiety. You know, there's the other line that says, like, when you give up control, you're giving up something you never had in the first place. Like you're just giving up this dream of this thing that you never had. When I work with SPONSEES and they're having trouble with steps two and three, which are the, you know, made this decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of a higher power and came to believe a power greater than ourselves. Those ones, especially people who have a lot of religious trauma, which I'm extremely sympathetic to, where those concepts can feel really, really super threatening. One of the things that I invite them to do is that they get to write. I ask them to write an essay, too. They get to create. It's like a build a bear. You get to create your own higher power. So write down what qualities. It's almost like the qualities you would want in a partner. What are the qualities that you would have to have in a higher power to surrender to that power? Like, because it's not going to be to the God you can't surrender to. The God you were taught is judging and hating you. Like, you already hate yourself. Like, you already hate yourself so much. You already judge yourself so much. Like, that's not going to feel good. So I'm like, just, you get to create your own hp. Let's go. And they're like, you can't do that, can you? I'm like, totally, you can. And why would a loving, mysterious God not take whatever form it needed to take for you to find it? Right? So it's interesting because usually the first thing they have on the list is unconditionally loving, especially love addicts. You know, it's like, I need a higher power who thinks I'm absolutely perfect as this wreckage that I am right now. Like, that's where it's got to start. Like, I can't have a God coming in here and shaming me. Yeah, I can't.

Rich Roll (97:50)

The other idea that's helpful for people that come in with that kind of baggage and resistance to any. Anything spiritual in any regard because of their religious background or whatever, is to just say kind of what you said earlier, which is, there's wisdom in these rooms. Like, a lot of people have faced and overcome things that you're struggling with right now. And one of the choices you can make is just to make the group consciousness your higher power. And that is. That is a higher power at work, you know, certainly being channeled through those people. And it just. Just grounds it and makes it a little bit easier to make that leap.

Elizabeth Gilbert (98:28)

Yeah, I love that the group. That's the God equals group of drunks. Isn't that what they say? That you make that your God. The crew I also love. There's a Couple questions I've heard, which is like, can you imagine, and it's just a hypothetical, that there might be an intelligence in the universe greater than yours, and you don't have to know what it is, but, like, even looking at, like, the ocean tides, I'm not doing that. And it's a very intelligent system, the way it's working. There's like, a beauty and an order that might be smarter than me. Could it be? Or is my brain the highest intelligence in the universe? Which doesn't even make sense, especially looking at how badly I've done managing my life. Right. Like, you can just take that as an example. Like, if I'm so smart, why do I. I keep driving myself over a cliff, right? So could it be possible that there's an intelligence in the universe and you don't even have to name what it is or know what it is? And the second question is, if the answer to that is yes, and if it's possible, could it be possible that it cares about you, that you're part of it, like, you were created unto this, and if it's possible, you don't have to know, but is it possible? And then third question is, if it's possible that it cares about you, can you imagine a possibility that it might want. Want to be in communion with you? Which brings us back to creativity and this idea of, like, ideas in the ether that want to be in communion with you. And is it possible that it's trying to communicate with you and that if you ask it to communicate with you, it will, and if you ask it to help you, it will. Is it possible or are we going to stick with. Your brain is the highest intelligence in the universe and it's got all the answers, as evidenced by the wreckage of your life.

Rich Roll (100:18)

Pete Holmes has a pretty funny bit about this. Have you heard this one where he talks about nothing? You know, like, ask people what happens when you die, and nothing, nothing happens. And reconciling that with the idea that before the Big Bang, there was nothing. So if it's nothing, well, then that's God. You're just calling it nothing. It's something it all leads to. Obviously, he does it in a brilliant way. That's hilarious.

Elizabeth Gilbert (100:41)

He's so great.

Rich Roll (100:42)

It's like a mental, like, gymnastics to, like, get around the language.

Elizabeth Gilbert (100:47)

And Rob Bell has said beautifully, you don't have to call it God, but that doesn't solve the problem of what the hell is going on?

Rich Roll (100:56)

Liz, what is going on?

Elizabeth Gilbert (100:57)

Like, what is going on? Earth School. I think I'm taking this off. I mean, I think that's what's going on. I think Earth school's going on. And when you look around what we've been able to see yet of the universe, it doesn't appear there's anything else that we've found yet that's like this. Something very special is going on here. This is a very. This is a very special place, this planet. And consciousness seems to be a very special thing. And the Buddhas say that it's a very precious thing to have a human life, even with all of its suffering. And I've not always felt that way. I've often felt like, check, please. I don't care for it. No, thank you. Zero out of five stars. But the Buddhists say these your chances of being born in human form and having the opportunity to have this spiritual experience on life, they're so glancingly slim. They're like. It's the same as the chance of a turtle that lives at the bottom of the ocean, that only comes to the top of the ocean once every hundred years, coming to the top of the ocean for a moment and its head coming up in a ring that's floating on the ocean. Those are the odds, which actually, biologically is true. When you look at sperms and eggs, it's like the odds of the. That one, like, inseminating event are so, like, what are the hot. They're like, astronomical, you know, and so you're being offered and invited, but not forced to have an interesting experience here and show up for it. Like, let's show up for it and see what happens next.

Rich Roll (102:33)

One of the things that you talk about is this idea of purpose anxiety. Because when you talk about that preciousness, then that trickles down into, okay, I'm here. I have a certain amount of time. What am I going to do with it? Let's get to work. And there is a cultural pressure out there that I think really makes people feel lousy about themselves, where they feel like they have to, like, what is my purpose? What is my thing? Like, I'm falling behind. I don't have it. I don't know what it is. So I'm less than as a result. Because the more you talk about how precious this life is, I think that that can, like, turn the volume up on that feeling of, like, well, how do I fit in here? And am I anything if I'm not special in this particular way?

Elizabeth Gilbert (103:33)

Yeah, Americans can contaminate anything. We took preciousness and turned it into purpose theology. You have to Earn that preciousness by achieving something or leaving an impact or changing the world. The problem with that, and again, I think there's an innocence in that belief. But one of the problems with that is when do you know you've done that enough, right? Especially in a culture where nothing is ever enough. Because you and I both know people who appear to be at the very top of that purpose game. And when you're in their company, you're like, this person's not well. You know, like, you can feel that they're not well and they're nailing it. Like, they're just extremely anxious in a much nicer house than I will ever have. You know, it's not work. It's not even working. That purpose driven thing doesn't even seem to be working for the people that it's working for. And the anxiety's not gone, you know, despite the tremendous accomplishments. Like, people with tremendous accomplishments kill themselves all the time. So do people with no accomplishments. So it's not that that kills you, it's just that it doesn't seem to answer that deeper question. And, you know, there's a story that I think we've all been told in a million commencement addresses about this idea that you've got this unique spark offering and it's your one job to figure out what it is, and then you've gotta monetize it, and then you've gotta bring it to other people and you've gotta have a legacy. Like, you've gotta be remembered after you. You know, all of this to me just sounds like the fears of the ego. Like, am I important? Am I special? Did I earn my right to be here? Did I waste my time? Should I have done more? Did I save enough lives? Did I leave a long enough legacy? Did I make enough of an impact? You know, all of this is like. Like ego, ego, ego, ego, ego. Whereas the preciousness that I feel like I'm speaking about doesn't need any of that. It just is. It's intrinsically precious. It is sovereign in its preciousness. It is precious. Whether you're living under a bridge, wearing a garbage bag and screaming at people when they walk by, or like running the world, it's that there's something happening that is extraordinary, which is that you're here. And so the thing that I'm always, when I teach, like, I ask people to forget about purpose. Like when I teach workshops, I'm like, I hope you didn't come here to find your purpose, because I'm not going to help you. I'm not going to help you because I actually want to help you. Kind of let that go and see if you can replace it with presence, which I think is just an awareness of awareness. Like, I have no idea what's going on here, but it's objectively very interesting, you know? And even the really horrible worst moments are objectively interesting. I mean, even when Raya was diagnosed, I remember there was this tiny little awakened part of my mind that was like. And I put it away really quickly, but there was a recognition where I was like, this is interesting. Like, this is the person who I can't live without. This is a one person. Like, if God had come to me and said, I'd be like, you can take all the rest of them. Like, all of them. They can all come. They can all go, this is the one that you can't take. This is the one that you can't take. This is the one that I can't live without. And they're like, okay, we're going to take that one. And even in the grief, there was this teeny little thing was like, that's interesting. Like, that is really objectively interesting. Like, oh. Because lots of times you think you have your purpose, and then life will teach you otherwise. Like, my purpose is to be this tremendous parent. Like, I'm gonna be this great parent. And then you fail. Like, you have a child who. What? Rob Bell always goes, everyone's got that one kid. It's like, you got one that it worked with, and then you've got one that it just. Just doesn't work with. And then maybe they spend their entire life estranged from you, and maybe they spend their entire life blaming you. And you're like, well, this is interesting because I totally thought, like, so much of my life is things where I'm like, I thought I was going to be good at this. I thought it was my purpose to do this. And maybe it wasn't, you know? And Leonard Cohen has a beautiful, beautiful line in a documentary about him where he said, one of the great sufferings that we often have is this feeling that there was some mission that we were supposed to do, and we failed at it. And he said, but maybe. And he then went and lived in a monastery for a ton of time and meditated on it until he came away with, like, but what if there's a deeper mission, which is to fail at it? And what if it was never yours? You know, you took on the mantle and the assignment that this is what you're here for, and the Sort of punchline is apparently not, right? Like apparently not. And what if just sitting in your shared humanity of the wreckage of your expectation is actually the portal to joining us here in our shared humanity? Like, welcome to your family. Here we are. Like we all thought we were supposed to do something, you know, and like even now, like we're supposed to save the planet. Like maybe not, I don't know, like I can't. I'm like, I don't know. And I feel like we're failing at it. But like, are we supposed to do like, I don't know. So just being present to whatever is. There's a line. I love that Byron Katie says, whenever I argue against reality, I lose, but only always. So a lot of my purpose anxiety in the world is about like, I want to imprint myself on the world in this particular way. And reality's like, no.

Rich Roll (109:26)

Actually I share that. I mean, first of all, you know, that's beautiful what you just shared and I think highly advisable and actionable in this moment that we're experiencing. Like, it's, there's a lot of crazy going on right there. It's very easy to get dysregulated or caught up in your opinions or inflamed, you know, around your attachment to certain ideas. And it feels like that is a, a pathway to equanimity and compassion for yourself and other people. And I think that we need that right now. You know, in my Earth school classroom at the moment, like, you know, all of what you said is like kind of coming up for me right now. Like, I, I just had this serious spinal surgery about five weeks ago and I'm being forced to, you know, stop and slow down and just be with myself. And it's sort of like COVID lockdown, except with, with physical pain and you know, not being able to move your body. Like, I'm here at work, it's fine, but, but not being able to kind of do the things that make you feel like yourself. And I'm very good at like outrunning anything that makes me feel uncomfortable and hiding in my work or just, you know, kind of escaping. Like I like what I do and it's in my life is good. Like there's not like any kind of, of chaos happening or huge problems. But I do have a lot of self awareness around this need to be seen and validated that's driven by this notion that love is transactional and needs to be earned through achievement and approval and accolades and all that kind of stuff. And obviously that's a hedonic treadmill that leads nowhere. And I don't want to, you know, be a victim of this striver's dilemma. The solution to it is being with myself and not being able to move or escape, you know, this discomfort, but to actually sit with it and cultivate, you know, this presence with that discomfort as a. As a teaching tool to, like, learn a different way to let go, to realize, like, whatever attachment I have to the meaning of who I am or what I do or this notion of purpose, like, it's all. These are just constructs that we create and adorn with meaning that create more suffering. And for as much as my behavior traits have led me to a certain privileged place in the world, they are also the Achilles heels that are, in the way, obstructing my connection with a higher consciousness and a deeper sense of meaning and greater connection with other people and more intimacy and all these other things that I sort of am too quick to kind of shove aside as optional. And I'll get to it when, you know, I have more time, but now. You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Gilbert (112:20)

So this is that you needed more time.

Rich Roll (112:22)

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Gilbert (112:23)

Done and done. Let's ground him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're being held in from recession, right, for school? You're not allowed to go out there on the boyfriend.

Rich Roll (112:34)

Yeah. I can come out and talk to you, but then I need to go back and think about what you just shared with me.

Elizabeth Gilbert (112:40)

There's a Bedouin line, I think, that says, the only thing that belongs to you is anything that cannot be. This is interesting to say in California at this moment, but anything that cannot be burned in a fire, lost in shipwreck, or stolen by pirates. And that doesn't leave much, including your own body. So what belongs to us, I think, is actually, like, if we start to what does belong to you? Then also I think is the answer to what are you? Which I think is also the answer to what is God? It's like, the thing that cannot be lost in a shipwreck. The thing that cannot be burned by fire. The thing that cannot be stolen by a pirate. What is that thing? And the. The Ramana Maharshi used to tell his students, the great Indian sage and teacher, he was like, there's two questions. It doesn't matter which one you use. He was just like, your choice, dealer's choice. I have the solution for you. It's just in. You get to pick. You either spend your life meditating on who is God, or you spend your life Meditating on who am I? And just sit and keep asking that question. Either one of them will get you to the same place. It doesn't matter which way. It's like both paths lead to each other. You're going to bump into God by asking, who am I? And you're going to bump into yourself by asking, who is God? And that's the thing that. That's all you have. Like, really. I think. I think. And I think the reason I feel like I know that to be true is when I remember that my whole nervous system is like, oh, thank God.

Rich Roll (114:14)

Are you able. Are you able to.

Elizabeth Gilbert (114:16)

Like, I don't have to come here's. Then I'll go and hustle till I forget.

Rich Roll (114:20)

Can you marinate in that consciousness and, you know, kind of stay present with it throughout the day? Or do you just have fleeting glimpses of that? Or is it, like a practice to always try to return to that place?

Elizabeth Gilbert (114:32)

I couldn't for a long time because my shame was in the way. I think that was the biggest thing. Like, I couldn't sit still because I was in so much shame. And, like, so anytime I tried to sit still and meditate, all I felt was shame. Including shame that I can't sit still and meditate. But then below that, like, multiple sub basements of shame where, like, my mind would just come out with a parade of horrors of, like, all my shortcomings and failures and disasters and you're garbage person and a fraud and you're, you know, I mean, like, just. It was like. It would feel like hell to me to sit quietly. And I think 12 steps really has made it easier for me to meditate because I'm sort of like, at this point, with the transparency that comes in recovery, it's like, bring me one of those things, those horrors that I did. Let me take it out of the sub basement, bring it to the room, tell a bunch of people about it. You know, like, one of my friends and I in the room, like, one of our rules is once a week we call each other and we're like, this is the thing. I don't want anyone to know about me today. So I was like, let's take this thing out, show it to someone. Like, let them sit in a loving presence for me while I reveal this. The world doesn't explode because they now know this awful, shameful thing. And then I'm gonna show it to God. And God's like, I know you're not telling me anything now. And then I'm gonna take it to my sponsor. And it's like, did I do something that was horrible? Like, did I do something that was wrong? Did I do something that was hurtful? Did I do something that I need to immediately fix and not manage, but, like, take accountability for? So instead of just stewing in this constant, you know, like, half of Eat, Pray, Love in the India section is just me describing how much I hated meditating because I was suffering. Like, I was just. It was just like watching the worst movie in the entire world. It's like a life review in heaven where your life is awful and it's all your fault, you know? And it's like, here's another thing you did. Here's another thing you did. You know, it was horrible. Horrible. But now I'm like, oh, there's a thing I did. And then I'm like, oh, you're right, I did do that. Like, that's kind of the way to defeat that shame. It's like when the devil comes knocking, you invite them in for tea. What's your worst? Like, show me the worst thing I did. I'm like, wow, I acknowledge that I did that. I'm going to share that thing that I did with somebody. Then I'm going to take it to my sponsor and be like, how do I make an amends for this? And then that thing doesn't have any power over me anymore. So just doing that, like, so steadily over the last six years, Like, I just wrote an amends letter yesterday to somebody that I harmed, like, 35 years ago. That's like, in one of my sub basements. And I'm like, I think it's time to reach out to this person. And it's like a long, ongoing process. So the more of those I do, the less power that awfulness has over me. And then I can sit for a really long time and just be. And when I do that and I get really quiet and I sit there for a long time, and what I hear is, I love you. I love you, I love you. That's all I hear, which is all I've ever wanted to hear, which is what I was doing all of this out here to try to get people to say, right.

Rich Roll (117:42)

But you're getting the real.

Elizabeth Gilbert (117:43)

The real getting from the well that doesn't run dry.

Rich Roll (117:46)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (117:47)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (117:47)

Rhea was modeling that level of truthfulness all along. Like, it's sort of breadcrumbs there. Right. Like, that was something that was very attractive about her. Like, just her past didn't own her.

Elizabeth Gilbert (118:00)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (118:00)

Because she had learned in the Rooms that like honesty will set you free. Like the idea that by sharing with another, another person, you know, in the construct of 12 step or otherwise, like there is a freedom that comes with that, where that thing that you've pushed down and are so afraid to share and feel like if you shared it, the world is going to collapse. Because the world is not a safe place. And you're a hyper vigilant person and you're scanning the room and you know where everybody is.

Elizabeth Gilbert (118:28)

Yeah. Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt, nobody, God.

Rich Roll (118:30)

Forbid, they know this. Right, right. And then you find out like, oh, nobody cares. And actually other people relate to this and all of that energy and shame and guilt was for what?

Elizabeth Gilbert (118:43)

Yeah, and it's the contrary action because you know, one of the lines that I say in the book is that there's these series of famous letters between Bill W. And the founder of AA and Carl Jung. And in it one of the things that Carl Jung says is like the hunger for alcohol is a sort of low level spiritual hunger. What it's sort of semi adequately doing is giving a person a sense of a connection with the divine. Probably because the shame drops away. Right. It's like I don't have to think, I don't have to know who I am anymore. I can check out. And now I actually feel good because I'm not. Not until the shim. The next day is even worse. Right. But he said, without a connection to the divine, the average person cannot resist. I think his exact line was like, what the medieval people rightfully called the devil. And I find that line really interesting. And one of the things that I said in the book is if Satan existed and I didn't grow up with a Satan concept, so that doesn't mean a lot to me. But if Satan existed, he could scarcely do better in terms of like creating misery than to talk inside your mind and feed you this like ticker tape of you're the worst, you suck. It's all your fault. If anyone knows this, they'll hate you. You are uniquely fucked. You are like uniquely broken. Nobody will ever be able to understand you. You deserve relief. You deserve relief from this. You should go get relief by any means. You deserve to get relief by any means necessary. And don't tell anyone I said this. Like the big thing is don't tell anyone I said this. Like this must be kept in a chamber of secrets. So I'm going to torment you from within, but you're not allowed to say that I exist, you know, and so the counteraction to that. And I think why 12 step, for all its faults and it's not for everyone works so well, is because it's like, oh, that's what we're gonna lead with. You're gonna raise your hand and be like, here's what I did, you know, like, here's what you know and what I've found. What I love about the rooms and I know you get this is like the laughter.

Rich Roll (120:51)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (120:52)

Everybody loves it. Like, instead of it being like this horrible thing, everyone's like, ha. Yeah, me too. And then I had a good idea, you know? And all of a sudden it's like.

Rich Roll (121:00)

The power is changed because it's connection, people. The facts of our experience are different, but there's the shared emotional valence of it all. So even though somebody's telling a crazy story, it's like very different from your story, but you're like, I know what that feels like.

Elizabeth Gilbert (121:14)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (121:15)

I can totally have my version of that in my life. And so things are funnier than they actually are because of that. You're like, I know this.

Elizabeth Gilbert (121:23)

Yeah. You know, it's so comforting. Right? And you're right. Raya had that and she was great at it. And that was what was so beautiful to me because I was doing, like, every word out of my mouth was a press release. You know, it's like, I've got to, like, get the wording on this. Right. You know, so that, like, people don't set upon me with pitchforks and flame, you know, it's like, stay safe, stay safe, stay safe, stay safe. Like, that was the drumbeat and she was just like, let's just throw it out there.

Rich Roll (121:51)

But the flip side of the I'm a piece of shit consciousness is to be able to simultaneously also believe. Believe that you're the best.

Elizabeth Gilbert (122:00)

Oh, yeah.

Rich Roll (122:01)

You know what I mean? Like, there's a superiority complex, you know, built into that that is, I think, unique to the addict.

Elizabeth Gilbert (122:09)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (122:09)

The ability to hold those two counterpoints.

Elizabeth Gilbert (122:12)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (122:13)

@ the same time.

Elizabeth Gilbert (122:14)

Well, that's the ego. It's like, I'm the best, I'm the worst. As it doesn't mind being the worst as long as it's the most. Something like, I'll be the most. Right. Am I. Did I win? Did I win the worst? You know, do I get a trophy? Am I important? Because I'm the biggest piece of shit, you know, and it's. I had a sponsor very early on who I used to love because I would call him and I would, like, share these safe, self hating Feelings that I was having. Like, I'm like, I'm so ashamed about this and I'm so embarrassed about this. I don't know what to do about this. And he would say, are you thinking about yourself? Like, he would just say, like, oh, it sounds like you're thinking about yourself. Are you thinking about yourself? And I was like, yeah, I'm thinking about yourself. He's like, well, that's not a good idea. Yeah, you know, he's like, how about you do some service? Anybody you can help today? Like, let's break that.

Rich Roll (122:59)

The antidote to self obsession.

Elizabeth Gilbert (123:01)

Yeah. Like, is there a newcomer you can talk to? Is there somebody you know? Is there like an act of kindness you can do for another human being? Or do you just want to sit here thinking about yourself?

Rich Roll (123:11)

Yeah, well, because that, that's until you want to. It's like it's doing something for you. It's like feeding your dopamine or whatever. Like, like nourishing that notion that you're the worst or whatever. There's a weird dysfunctional comfort in that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (123:26)

Yeah, well, it's the line they always say is, I'm not much, but I'm the only thing I ever think about.

Rich Roll (123:31)

Right.

Elizabeth Gilbert (123:34)

And that's the beautiful thing about being another bozo on the bus, you know, like, I mean, when I first came in, I'm like, I'm a public figure. I can't be in this 12 step room talking about these absolutely shameful episodes of sexual, romantic and ethical degradation that I both committed and allowed myself to receive. People are gonna go to Page Six about this, they're gonna tweet about it, they're gonna, you know, and my first sponsor was like, you're actually just another bozo on the bus. Like, you're not Elizabeth Gilbert here. Nobody actually really cares. Like they're here to get their own.

Rich Roll (124:11)

Recovery doing this thing here in la. I can tell you that the well known people that get well and stay well are the ones who get over that whole thing and the ones who don't are the ones who do get caught up in that narrative. Yeah, it's got to be hard though. I'm sympathetic to that. I understand that fear.

Elizabeth Gilbert (124:31)

Yeah. But there really was a reckoning moment.

Rich Roll (124:34)

Especially when you struggle to trust people.

Elizabeth Gilbert (124:36)

And especially because I think you mentioned at the beginning I feel like sex addiction and especially anything having to do with, with sex and love addiction for women carries the same stigma now that like being an alcoholic would have carried 40 years ago.

Rich Roll (124:51)

Yeah, I think you're right about that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (124:52)

And that's why people don't know about any of these programs, because it's like, for shame, you know? And that's another reason why I, with counsel from my sponsor, made the decision to be open about it. Because it's like, well, if somebody's gonna do, I'll do it. You know, Like, I'll do it because everybody already knows everything about me. You know, Like, I've already, like, made it a habit of telling everybody everything. I don't have a partner to embarrass. Like, my family's pretty hands off, so they don't care. I don't have kids to embarrass. So, like, why don't I do it? Like, I'll talk about it, and then if you hear something that I'm saying that reminds you of yourself, then you can go look into it and know that it exists.

Rich Roll (125:31)

That's the way I feel about it. But there are traditionalists who would say that that's a violation of the tradition and not sharing publicly about these kinds of things. And I understand the reasons behind that. And we all have our different line with that. And I never quite know where to land on that. But I generally err on the kind of the liberal side of it because for the very reasons that you said, there are people out there who are suffering who either aren't aware about this at all or have an affiliation or a mental construct of it that's based on. On television or movies or something like that. And I think it's important to humanize it. And I think, especially when it comes to, like, SLA and the things that you're talking about, like, this is unchartered territory for a lot of people.

Elizabeth Gilbert (126:18)

Yeah, it's interesting. I actually nerded out the way I love to and did a deep dive into what the founders had to say about this.

Rich Roll (126:25)

Oh, really?

Elizabeth Gilbert (126:26)

Yeah. Because there is a lot. I mean, and there isn't a consensus on it in the rooms. I mean, this is a real inside baseball recovery stuff. But there's. People get really heated about it. And there have been articles in the New York Times about it. Is it okay? Is it not okay? People are like, it's an anonymous program. It's right there in the title. And for me, it's like, well, I would certainly never blow up anybody else's anonymity. But I don't see anywhere where it says that you have to. You're not allowed to identify yourself as an addict. And there's also to consider that when all of this stuff was created, you would lose your job. If you were an alcoholic back in 1935, you would be shunned from your community. Like, it was essential that there was no discussion about this outside of the rooms. And yet Bill W. Wrote a couple of really interesting essays about this very topic. And I was like, what's Bill got to say about this? And his position was you should talk about it all the time. You should always talk about being an addict, and you should always talk about being an addict who has found recovery. Because you are a beacon of hope for people who need to see that there is a possibility of healing from this thing that has dogged them forever. But you don't have to get into the specifics of naming your program. You can say, I found recovery in a 12 step program that deals with alcoholism. You don't have to say, I found recovery in aa. And his reason, which I thought was really subtle for that was if somebody, like, if somebody hears that, they'll go find it. But he also said if you, if someone dislikes you, he's like, we have to save the rooms from people's personalities. He's like, if somebody dislikes you and they hear that you're an AA and they need aa, they might not go to aa, but if you just say like, I was sick and now I'm well and I found a 12 step program about that, he was like, talk about it, write about it, put it in the papers. Like, everybody should know about this.

Rich Roll (128:15)

Well, the other thing they're afraid of is if it's a well known person and, and they're just going everywhere talking about it and they're in early sobriety and they relapse or they relapse later. Like that casts a shadow on the viability of the program.

Elizabeth Gilbert (128:32)

Suddenly it's like, oh, that doesn't work. Doesn't work because this person didn't work.

Rich Roll (128:35)

And these things come in waves. As somebody who's been around for a long time, like every couple years, there's a sort of zeitgeist moment in the press where it's like, this doesn't work. And here's the new thing. I've seen like, you know, so many versions of that, but what's stuck around this miracle where all these people who can barely get along have somehow figured out to create this thing that has thrived across the globe, like, it's really.

Elizabeth Gilbert (128:59)

Insane for almost a hundred years.

Rich Roll (129:00)

I mean, it is a miracle and it's free. What I always say, it's like, where else can you stumble Into a room full of strangers, broken, penniless, alone, desperate, not knowing where to go, who to turn. And this group of people will take you in and hold you and help you and ask for nothing in return. It's incredible.

Elizabeth Gilbert (129:26)

That's the part that's so interesting to me is the asking for nothing in return. Because so much of my relationship history has been transactional, you know, like, I'm gonna earn your love, attention, validation, and acceptance by huge acts of service or over giving. Or, you know, I'm like, we're gonna. I'm gonna make sure that I get you locked down. My first sponsor, I used to bring up gifts. Like, I mean, that's my. Giving gifts to people is my love language, but it's also my manipulation language. It's a sort of a thin line where it's like, I'm gonna give you this thing so you love me and don't leave me. And I remember her saying, like, I don't need this. You know, like, it's very sweet that you gave me this necklace. I mean, now I think it's so, like, if one of my sponsees was like, here, I gave you a. Like, I'd be like, honey, it's not what we're doing here. You know, like, that's not. This is the one place that that's not what we're doing here. And as your sponsor, like, that's what I tell my sponsees now. Like, actually. And I remember my sponsor saying to this to me, and it didn't make any sense where she's like, I'm getting much more out of this than you are taking you through the steps. And I was like, that can't be true. You're giving me all this time for free and dealing with my shit, you know? But now that I have spunces, I'm like, oh, yeah, there's. This is such a gift to be able to do this.

Rich Roll (130:44)

How has this affected your creativity and your output? Like, you've opted out of, like, a lot of drama and a lot of energy, kind of placed in the wrong direction, and you've replaced it with your engagement with the program or recovery and things like that. But there's a lot of headspace that is now freed up.

Elizabeth Gilbert (131:06)

I've written three books in the last six years, which is crazy.

Rich Roll (131:09)

Wow.

Elizabeth Gilbert (131:10)

I mean, not that that should be a measure of anything other than wow. Look what happens when all of this energy, like, I've had a hole in my boat that I've been like, I've been simultaneously rowing the boat and bailing the boat out. And I am actually really proud of myself for how far I got rowing with one arm, you know, while simultaneously bailing out the boat. But, like, stepping out of the drama cycle, as you just mentioned, with sexual and romantic engagement, it's like, I got two arms to row now. And it's like, whoa, this is wild. I mean, one of the beautiful definitions I heard of addiction is. Addiction is giving up everything for one thing, and recovery is giving up one thing for everything. And my everything has gotten so big. Like, and it's not just the creativity, but this is the one that kind of a little bit breaks my heart. Like, I've always had great friends and I had a lot of friends, but my relationships, my central kind of like, flagship relationship, whoever it was, whoever I had taken hostage at the moment, whoever I had decided was like that person at the center of my life, the amount, the sheer amount of energy that I poured into that was so enormous. And now when I'm not doing that, I look around and I'm like, I had these incredible friends. Like, I've got these decade long, decades long friendships that I had been just nominally attending to for my entire life. Wonderful people, like, loving, extraordinary people. And it's like, it brings tears to my eyes. I was like, you were there the whole time. Like, you were there. Like I was sending you a Christmas card once a year. And we could have been doing this. Like, we could have been having this amazing, generative, creative, really fun, incredible friendship. Like, community existed, you know, creativity existed, God existed. Like, it's like all this other stuff was there that was being blocked by my one thing. Because that thing was like the thing I was obsessed with and fixated on.

Rich Roll (133:15)

And now you could take it all the way to the river, hopefully. Explain. Explain what that means, the title of the book.

Elizabeth Gilbert (133:21)

So, so my partner, Raya was a New Yorker. I mean, she was a Syrian immigrant raised in Detroit, but identified as a New Yorker, and particularly a New Yorker on the Lower east side. And she had this operative metaphor for describing her friendships. And she said, you got your Fifth Avenue friends. So she would look at a map of New York and be like, right here in the center is Fifth Avenue. So your Fifth Avenue friends are the people that you're completely superficial with. And it's professional relationships. And, you know, you've got a sort of mask on. They've got a mask on. You know they have a mask on. They know you do. You don't wanna take the mask off. You know, you just, you're acting a certain role. And then you go to, like, a little farther east, and you go to, like, your Fourth and Third Avenue friends, and you start to let them see you a little bit more, and there's a little bit, like, the mask starts to come off. And then you get to your, like, Second and First Avenue friends, and now there's intimacy. Like, they know about your history, you know about their history. Maybe you went to their wedding. Like you've met their family. You start to see behind the public Persona. And she's like, but it's not till you get to your Avenue A, B, C and D friends, your Alphabet City friends. Those are the people who have been in the shit with you, and they know everything. Like, they know they were with you through your divorce and through your breakup and through your addiction, and they dropped you off at rehab. And, like, they know all the stuff you know, and they love you anyway. And maybe you've had problems with them, you've had fights with them, you've had to make up. Like, you've seen them, they've seen seen you. And then she's like, but if you're really lucky, because after Avenue D, there's just the highway and then there's the river. She's like, once in your life, if you're very lucky, you might happen all the way to the riverfront. And that's just. Makes me cry again to say it, but she was always like, you're my all the way to the river friend. Like, we're going to go all the way to the east river together, which means you will see everything like there will be nothing withheld. And they know you like, they know you at the depth of the deepest depth that you can know somebody. And she was always like, you're my all the way to the riverfront. And I took so much pride in it. And then when she started, when we found out she was dying, we started calling her death the river. So on the day she found out she had terminal cancer, she said, I want you to walk all the way to the river with me. And God help us, I did. Because as I describe in the book, if you've ever walked all the way from Fifth Avenue to the east river, it's not very nice walk.

Rich Roll (135:43)

It's a lot better than easy used to be.

Elizabeth Gilbert (135:44)

It's like back in the day, though, it's like you're going through projects, you're stepping over drug dealers. Like, you're walking on needles and crack vials. There's dog shit. I mean, like the closer you get to the river, the more intense it is. You got to make it across the highway. You've got to find the overpass, and then you get to the east river, and it's the east river, right? Which is like. You don't exactly want to jump in the east river, you know, so it's harrowing. Like, the book has been described to me as harrowing, but I think that true intimacy is, you know, like, really allowing yourself to be that known, I think is a bit harrowing. Because we're difficult humans. We're difficult and we're full of contradictions and dangerous and unreliable and beautiful and sublime all at the same time.

Rich Roll (136:35)

Yeah. If you want the beauty in transcendence that a relationship can deliver in the best way, you gotta walk past Avenue D and, you know, like, maybe step on a syringe or two along the way, you know?

Elizabeth Gilbert (136:49)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (136:50)

Now it's all gentrified, I think. Didn't they just down it, like, by the east river also there? Didn't that new park, like, right on the river just open right now? It's all nice.

Elizabeth Gilbert (136:58)

I'm still picturing the housing projects are still there, you know, like, the abandoned parts of the city are still there. The power plant is there.

Rich Roll (137:06)

Yeah, that weird power plant, you know.

Elizabeth Gilbert (137:08)

That everybody who lives over there has to be. Breathe. And I remember one time. I don't know why I'm thinking of this, but when Rhea got cancer and they put a port in her arm at one point so that they could be able to inject her with chemo drugs and not have to just keep taking a port in and out. And this was before she had her big drug relapse and we walked out of the hospital, and she was like. Her eyes were shining, and she's like, dude, you know what I could have done with this back in the day? She's like, I can't freaking believe this. They do this. She's like, I could put anything in here.

Rich Roll (137:39)

They let her leave the hospital.

Elizabeth Gilbert (137:40)

They let me leave the hospital with a port in my arm that I could stick a needle with anything in it. She was like. She was kind of tweaked by it. She's like, I could put Jack Daniels in this. I could put anything in this. I could put, like. I could shoot anything I wanted right into my veins so easily. She's like, it's great. And I remember we were up in midtown, and, like, she'd just come from chemo, and I was like, like, if you had to find heroin, you know, now, after 18 years clean, how long would it take you? And she. I just remember her whole demeanor changed. And she just, like. She, like, looked at her watch. She did this, like, really, like, wolfish kind of look at her watch, and she's like. And she's like, where are we? She, like, clocked the street she was on. And she goes, 15 minutes. 15 minutes. I could be at an Avenue D. I know exactly where to go. And she said, all I would have to do is point to this. And I was like, whoa. And now that I understand how easy it is to be swept into addiction, there's a chapter that I have in my book called you will have 30 seconds to save youe Life. That's about what. The vigilance. And this is a good use of my vigilance. The vigilance and the awareness that I have to keep as I move through the world to not be like. I could get that in 15 minutes, you know.

Rich Roll (138:57)

Yeah. My question to you is, how long would it take you in a. You know, in a crowded room, walking down the street or in New York City to, like, identify at 50 meters, like, who that person is who's gonna just light you up and fill those needs and do all the things that, you know you want them to do for you, like to go right back to that place. You're getting a little older, first of all.

Elizabeth Gilbert (139:20)

So it might not be. It might not be quite as easy as it used to. I mean, this isn't about me blowing my horn in any way. It's not hard for a woman. You know what I mean? Like, you simply must agree to make your body available to somebody, and there will be somebody who will happily do that, you know? So it's not. It's not like. You don't have to be like a master. I don't have to be like, a master seductress. Like, you just have to be like, you know, just raise your hand and be like, I'm all right, or anybody, you know, like, you know, someone will. So. So it's not hard. I think it's not hard. It's not hard for any addict to find the thing. The hard thing is to not do that. That's the thing. And the hardest thing, I think, is to not see. Is to be able to see where you're setting yourself up, where you're in dangerous territory, where you are not putting yourself in dangerous circumstances. For an alcoholic, that might mean, like, I don't hang out in a bar. Like, I'm just not going to do that to myself. I'm just not going to put myself in that circumstance.

Rich Roll (140:27)

When you think of that younger Liz in Bali on the Eat Pride love train, doing the meditation and dipping your toe into spirituality, when you reflect back on that time, were there lessons imparted to you then that you feel like you're only learning now?

Elizabeth Gilbert (140:47)

Yeah. And every bit of it was necessary, too. You know, like, there's a common question that I'm sure you've heard a billion times where interviews will say, like, what would you have told your younger self if you could? And I am left with no answer. But do everything you're gonna do. Like, do everything you're gonna do all of it. You have to do all of it. You have to do all the great stuff, and you have to do all the horrible stuff. Cause otherwise I don't get to be here. Like, this is all of that, is what's gonna create where we are now. And where we are now is good. So, yeah, I mean, and I think I had glimmers of it. You know, I had glimmers of it, but I don't think I believed that. I mean, and I felt God. I've always loved God. I've always kind of believed in God. I've always sensed God. I've always loved the wonder and the mystery of what I call God. But I've never trusted God, not for a minute. It's like, I love you. Your work is great. Big fan. I'm gonna control this. I'm gonna control this. So I think I didn't. Well, I felt that I'd had. I did have beautiful spiritual awakenings in that journey. It's like, I'm still driving this car. And that's, you know, mixed results.

Rich Roll (142:03)

That's why it's a practice of constantly turning it over and turning it over again.

Elizabeth Gilbert (142:10)

Yeah. And again and again. I love that. The Tibetan Buddhists call meditation remembering. That's their translation for meditation. They don't have a word for meditation. It's just remembering. Practice. You just sit and remember what you forgot. And some of us, that we are.

Rich Roll (142:28)

All one, like I said, we're all just trying to get back home.

Elizabeth Gilbert (142:31)

Home.

Rich Roll (142:32)

Right. We're trying to find our way. And addicts, I think, are fundamentally spiritual seekers. They're looking for something. They're trying to fill that hole. They're doing it in wrongheaded ways, but they're very committed and intense, you know, intent upon finding answers. Right. And, you know, the gift of bottoming out is that then you're blessed with this Opportunity to redirect that energy in a healthy way. And a lot of people don't. Don't get that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (142:59)

Well, don't have that. I have a funny experience. Like, I totally identify every addict. Doesn't matter what it is. Like, if you're an addict, you're one of mine. You're one of my people. Like, I could sit on any meeting, you know, and be like, oh, yeah. Like, I don't do that. You know, I don't. I'm not a gambler, but I could sit in a gambling meeting, and I could get recovery. Listening to people talk about their recovery from gambling, like, 100%, because I know what it feels like to think that you can get this thing somewhere. You know, here's who I don't get. People who don't feel like they're on fire with questions, you know, people who, like, are just like, hoobity doobity doo, like, kind of walking through life. And I can never tell if they're, like, great saints or just super checked out. Like, people who are like, the new Toyota Camry is nice.

Rich Roll (143:48)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (143:48)

You know? And you're like, I'm looking in their eyes. I'm like, do you not hunger? Do you not hunger? Are you not, like. Are you not baffled by this? Are you not? Like. And they're just like. And I can never tell, like, what's it feel like to not have your head on fire? What's it feel like to not be famished for experiences? What's it feel like to be satisfied? Like, people who appear to just be satisfied are a marvel to me. Like, I'm like, how are you just hanging out?

Rich Roll (144:16)

Yeah. I mean, it's either a Buddha consciousness or it's completely, you know, it's completely complete distraction or repression, and I can't know. Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (144:25)

So I'm going to assume Buddha consciousness because it's a more generous interpretation. But, like, that. That's what I don't get. I get addiction. I just. I don't get. I'm good. You know?

Rich Roll (144:37)

Like, if you're not going to the extreme, like, how are you? A lot, you know?

Elizabeth Gilbert (144:41)

You know, people who, like, live in the town they grew up in, and they're like, I like it here, you know? And I'm like, did you not want to go see the other stuff?

Rich Roll (144:51)

I mean, God bless us. God bless.

Elizabeth Gilbert (144:53)

Like, I know. It's incredible. Like, and. And meanwhile, it's like, I'll probably end up back in where I grew up and be like, after all that.

Rich Roll (144:59)

Right.

Elizabeth Gilbert (145:00)

I just circled around and came home.

Rich Roll (145:01)

You did do all those things to do to go be the neighbor with.

Elizabeth Gilbert (145:05)

The guy who just never left.

Rich Roll (145:07)

Like, oh, good to see you. I knew you'd be back.

Elizabeth Gilbert (145:09)

Yeah, exactly.

Rich Roll (145:09)

Who's the teacher?

Elizabeth Gilbert (145:10)

Exactly. I mean, that's why those people are mysterious to me, because I'm like, I don't understand. There's a. There's a scene in Ypreila with this Irish guy that I met there at the ashram who was deep on a hard spiritual journey. And he said he went home and he was trying to tell his father. His father was like, a sheep farmer in County Cork who was, like, ninth generation on his land, just living in this life of routine. And this kid was just a seeker, and he'd spent his entire life traveling the world. He came home to visit his dad, and he was like, telling him about meditation and about India and about chanting, and his dad's just listening and, like, staring into the fire. And he's like, dad, you gotta try this meditation. It gives you a quiet mind, dad. Gives you a quiet mind. And his father said, I've got a quiet mind, son.

Rich Roll (145:56)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert (145:56)

You know, but my friend didn't. And when you don't, I think you have to become a seeker. I don't have one either, you know, so I have one now more than I've ever had one. But, you know, it's. It's an arcade in here.

Rich Roll (146:11)

Me, too. Welcome to the asylum. You're the best, Liz. I love you.

Elizabeth Gilbert (146:18)

I love you, too.

Rich Roll (146:19)

This was fantastic. I could. I could just talk to you. I could do this every day with you. You're amazing. You inspired me in so many ways over many, many years through not just your books, but your example, the way that you show up, your. Your courage to be as honest and as vulnerable as you are. And this latest chapter is just a whole new level of that. It's really beautifully written, and I think it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you for that and keep doing your thing. Yeah, I'm always, like, I'm always here to support you. I'm such a massive fan. I just have a huge place in my heart for you and feel very connected to the mission that you're on.

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:00)

Thank you. And I to yours. Let's keep going, huh?

Rich Roll (147:03)

Thanks. Final thing. Is it true that you met Adam Skolnick in Bali during that Eat, Pray, Love situation? Is that fact or fiction?

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:13)

Not only is it true Adam is in Eat, Pray, Love.

Rich Roll (147:16)

He is, Yes. I did not know that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:19)

That I didn't know he is in Eat Pray Love.

Rich Roll (147:22)

That is like a news flash.

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:23)

Yeah, it's true.

Rich Roll (147:24)

All right, please just tell this postscript story quickly.

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:28)

My friend and yours, Adam Skolnick, I met in ubud, Bali in 2010 and we became friends and he came to my 34th birthday party 35th birthday party, which was held at YM the healer's house and he's got a couple lines in the book and we've been friends ever since.

Rich Roll (147:49)

I didn't know that he had lines in the book.

Elizabeth Gilbert (147:51)

And do you know for when he was he's obviously a very happily married man now, but when he was a young single man, a very good calling card to get women to like him and trust him was to say that he was friends with Liz Gilbert and that he's a character in He Pray Love.

Rich Roll (148:06)

How many dinners did you dine out on that one, buddy? How many dates?

Elizabeth Gilbert (148:10)

I plead the fifth.

Rich Roll (148:11)

All right, next roll on. This is going to be explored. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources, sources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing, Change, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment and share. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatta, Trapper.

Liz Gilbert (149:48)

Pyatt and Harry Mathis.

Rich Roll (149:49)

Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants.

Elizabeth Gilbert (149:55)

Namaste.