The Rich Roll Podcast

Guest: Maya Shankar, PhD
Title: On Navigating Unexpected Life Changes, The Neuroscience of Identity, & How To Unlock Your Next Self
Date: January 15, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Rich Roll sits down with cognitive scientist Maya Shankar to explore the tumultuous and revelatory terrain of unexpected life changes. Grounded in Maya’s acclaimed book The Other Side of Change, their conversation delves into the neuroscience of identity, our aversion to uncertainty, and how loss and disruption open doors to new possibilities and versions of ourselves. Brimming with personal stories, scientific explanations, and tactical strategies, this masterclass aims to help listeners reframe change—not as a burden, but as the greatest lever for transformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Are We So Bad at Predicting Our Future Selves?

• Affective forecasting: We dramatically overestimate our continuity and underestimate our future growth.
  • "We falsely believe that the person we are right now is going to be the person that's navigating that whole experience. But…we become different people on the other side of change." – Maya (05:47)
• End of History Illusion:
  • We readily acknowledge our past evolution but assume we’re now ‘finished products.’
  • Example: Looking back at one’s high school self with embarrassment, while assuming one’s current attitudes and traits are fixed. (07:01)

Voluntary vs. Involuntary Change

• Voluntary: Chosen changes (resolutions, goal-setting) are empowering.
• Involuntary: Imposed changes (illness, loss) are disruptive and threaten our sense of control.
  • "What happens when life throws you a massive curveball, especially one that's negative, is that it shatters that illusion…and all of a sudden, uncertainty is abound." – Maya (09:03)
• Research Highlight: People are more stressed with a 50% chance of electric shock than a 100% chance, underscoring our aversion to uncertainty. (10:00)

Identity, Attachment & Loss

• Change threatens not just activities, but identities.
  • Maya’s violin injury as a child: Grieving not only the loss of her music, but of “myself at this more fundamental level” (11:40).
• The “why” under identity:
  • “Define myself not simply by what I do, but by why I do it." (13:40)
  • Core motivators—emotional connection, creativity—can be expressed in different domains if one identity is lost.
• Attachment and suffering:
  • "Anything that you attach yourself to is going to create suffering." – Rich (16:07)
  • Realizing value isn’t in the identity’s surface, but in the experiences it facilitates.

Childhood, Achievement, and Control

• Exploring roots of attachment: community, the need for belonging, and filling the void of rejection with achievement (18:13–22:33)
• The illusion of control & coping mechanisms:
  • "If I couldn't control my social environment at school…what could I control? Maybe I could control trying to become really, really good at something." – Maya (21:35)

Why We Resist Change

• Denial as natural and sometimes adaptive:
  • "Denial in the short term actually confers a lot of benefits…It is a survival mechanism." – Maya (23:45)
• The challenge of “just controlling your reaction”:
  • Real-world strategies are needed when hustle or grit aren’t relevant, particularly in the face of irreparable loss. Maya’s experience with pregnancy loss motivated her to seek and share these strategies (24:00).

The Brain & Narrative Identity

• We crave story:
  • Our brains favor a cohesive, simple life arc, avoiding nuance and complexity.
• Beliefs are not set in stone:
  • “Would I have different beliefs if I’d been born in a different time, place, or family?” – Maya (66:01)
  • It’s imperative to challenge and stress-test beliefs, especially those about the self.

Practical Tools for Navigating Change

1. Self-Affirmation

• Identify all meaningful roles and sources of value that aren't threatened by the current change (58:02).
• Maya’s gratitude exercise (initially resisted) rekindled connection to overlooked identities and roles.

2. Psychological Distancing

• Techniques like mental time travel, third-person self-talk, and fly-on-the-wall perspective can shift from emotional overwhelm to clarity (100:18–104:14).

3. Curiosity & The Role of Questions

• Cultivating curiosity is more helpful than seeking immediate happiness.
• “Inquiry is the active tense of curiosity.” – Rich (71:38)
• The “Questions to Statements Ratio”: Ask more, assert less.

4. Moral Elevation

• Witnessing others surpass expectations of kindness, resilience, or courage (e.g., Bilal’s influence on the imprisoned Dwayne) helps us reimagine what’s possible for ourselves (78:27–83:31).

5. Expanding Possible Selves

• Engage with fiction ("an identity laboratory") to safely explore new potential versions of oneself (88:57).
• Be proactive in generating positive, not just feared, possible selves.

6. Acceptance: Painful but Essential

• Acceptance is not passive; it’s the gateway to growth.
• “Radical acceptance” is hard, but only by facing reality can you unlock what’s on the other side (49:57).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On change as revelation:

  “The origin of the word [apocalypse] actually comes from the Greek word apokalypsis, which means revelation…Change can upend us, but it can also reveal really important things to us.”
  – Maya (43:14)

• On story and meaning:

  “All of our stories are lies. They all have very loose affiliations with the truth and they're informed by such a small selection of experiences…But they become incredibly predictive of our behavior.”
  – Rich (63:19)

• On awe and perspective:

  “What awe does from a neuroscientific perspective is that it quiets the default mode network…which allows us to step outside of ourselves and remember that we are part of a collective, that we belong to a group that's bigger than ourselves.”
  – Maya (104:37)

• On possibility after loss:

  “There is the gift of a better version of Maya sitting on the other side of change that is possible to access. And it's the unique conditions of the change that are going to allow that new Maya to become a real entity.”
  – Maya (120:15)

• On discomfort and growth:

  “Discomfort is the price of admission for a meaningful life.”
  – Susan David, cited by Rich (125:53)

Timestamps for Essential Segments

| Segment | Topic | |------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------| | [05:47] | Why we mispredict our response to change | | [07:01] | The “End of History Illusion” | | [09:03] | Difference: voluntary vs. involuntary change | | [11:40] | Change and loss of identity | | [13:40] | Redefining identity by “why,” not “what” | | [23:45] | Denial and coping mechanisms | | [43:14] | Change as apocalypse & revelation | | [58:02] | Self-affirmation & broadening identity | | [71:38] | Questions vs. statements & curiosity | | [78:27] | Moral elevation; Dwayne and Bilal’s story | | [88:57] | Fiction as an “identity laboratory” | | [100:18] | Rumination, metacognition, and time travel | | [104:37] | Awe as a strategy for perspective | | [120:15] | Value proposition of change |

Overall Tone

Maya’s approach is both deeply empathic and rigorously scientific. The conversation is intimate, candid, and frequently punctuated by bursts of mutual insight, laughter, and vulnerability. Rich’s personal experiences as an athlete in recovery and Maya’s honesty about her own struggles with loss and identity ground the discussion, making the science accessible and the strategies relatable.

Conclusion & Takeaways

• Change is inevitable—and uncomfortable—yet it’s a profound source of self-discovery and agency.
• Loss of a core identity can be a catalyst for broader, more flexible self-concepts.
• Practical techniques (self-affirmation, distancing, curiosity, exposure to new models) are available to help anyone navigate change more gracefully.
• Even in the most disruptive circumstances, there is potential for awe, revelation, and a better self on the other side.

“Change is coming for all of us, whether we like it or not. My goal is to give people the companion they need along the way so that they can unlock the same kind of beautiful change that I've seen the people I interviewed for this book unlock within themselves.”
– Maya (126:48)

Recommended for:
Anyone facing an unexpected change, grappling with identity, or seeking a roadmap to navigate uncertainty with more agency, curiosity, and self-compassion.

For more:

• Maya Shankar’s The Other Side of Change
• Podcast: A Slight Change of Plans
• Rich Roll Podcast website