B (5:47)

Absolutely. And I think we forget that we are constantly changing. So when we anticipate how we're going to respond to some change, we falsely believe that the person we are right now is going to be the person that's navigating that whole experience. But of course, we're always changing. And what a change can do, what that proverbial Anvil from the sky falling can do is it can accelerate these inner transformations such that we become different people on the other side of change. And I actually find a lot of hope in this message, Rich, because the number of times that I felt so daunted at the outset of change, so convinced that I was going to be incapable of coming out the other side intact, let alone better, is large. And I forgot that the changes that happened in my life would change me too, Right? That when a change happens to us, it also leads to profound change within us. And we forget this because of a bias called the end of history illusion.

A (6:58)

So, which is. Explain that.

B (7:01)

Yeah. Which is we fully acknowledge that we have changed considerably in the past. So you pull up high school footage of Maya. I will have a total cringe moment, be like, who is that person? Please let me create as much emotional and psychological distance from current day Maya and that person. And so I fully acknowledge, oh, yeah, totally different person than I was then. But when I forecast the future and you say, well, how much are you going to change moving forward? My brain says, no, I'm done. Like, what you see right now, this is the finished product. I more or less have settled on my beliefs and attitudes and capabilities and perspectives and whatnot. And it's so funny because of course we're going to change, but we forget this really critical piece of information that we will actually develop new perspectives and new abilities and new values that actually inform the way that we process our changes.

A (7:59)

So when we talk about change, there's a little bit of a distinction that we should make. Because to my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, there really are two fundamentally different kinds of changes. There are the changes that we volunteer for. For example, the New Year's resolution to finally lose 10 pounds or run a marathon or find a partner of your dreams. Those are the impulse that we have to become better than we are tomorrow, than we are today. Then there are the kind of changes that you're really focused on, which are externally imposed upon us. Something happens in our life. We get diagnosed with a disease. In your case, two pregnancies that didn't work out that created a second identity crisis for you. What do we do when the world doesn't align with the way that we believe it should, that our predictive mind is telling us is the fair and right thing that aligns with our identity and how we feel like life should be? I guess.

B (9:03)

Yeah. I love that you make this distinction because, look, I'm the type of person who's setting Goals all the time. I love initiating change in my life on my own terms. Right. But what's most disorienting to me is when I'm thrown a change that I'm unprepared for, and that's unwilled, and that's why it's become the focus of my work. And I think one reason why we're so afraid of that kind of change is that it threatens our feeling of control. Right? So in everyday life, as we're just going about our days, we fall prey to what's called the illusion of control. And this refers to the fact that we wildly overestimate how much we're dictating how our lives turn out. Right. We see things as an input output model. Right. And to some degree, it is an input output model. If you work harder at X, you're probably going to get better outcomes, Right? If you try harder at Y, you're probably going to get better outcomes. But what happens when life throws you a massive curveball, especially one that's negative, is that it shatters that illusion. And in a moment you are forced to confront the limits of your control. And all of a sudden, uncertainty is abound. And our brains are not wired to enjoy uncertainty. One of my favorite research studies shows that people are more stressed when they're told they have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when they're told they have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock. And it's like, kind of funny and a little wild, right? But I so resonate with that. I want to know how the story ends. Bring on the shocks, dude. Right? Like, I just want clarity and black and white answers.

A (10:48)

Human beings seem fundamentally hardwired to have an extreme aversion to uncertainty. But the universe, the world, life is fundamentally uncertain. And it is our discomfort with uncertainty that gives rise to all of these control issues. Or are over indexing on our ability to control life outcomes.

B (11:11)

Yes.

A (11:12)

Is there a neurological connection? Like, what is the rationale for this extreme discomfort with uncertainty? Because it feels like that's the biggest piece and everything else is downstream of that.

B (11:26)

Well, imagine a life in which you were fully aware all the time of the limits of your control. You might enter a nihilistic state.

A (11:34)

Yeah, it's terrifying.

B (11:36)

It's terrifying.

A (11:37)

All these things are going to happen. You have no control.

B (11:40)

Why even try, Right? You know what? I'm just going to hang up my hat and just be a recipient of my life. So the things that make us very human and that bring our lives Meaning, like our motivation and our sense of meaning and our sense of purpose would all disappear from view. And I think that would be. That's actually a pretty terrifying existence. I also think that a reason that change can be so disorienting and so scary is that it can threaten our sense of identity. And I know that's one of the big themes that you explore on the show, but it's something that's taken me a really long time to discover. I think when I first started studying the topic of change, I thought, okay, I'm gonna go on this journey with people and figure out what the external beats of their stories are. And it was only after a while I noticed o when the big change happens, they lose their sense of who they are. And I certainly felt this with the violin, right? So when I lost the violin at age 15, yes, of course I was devastated. We would all expect that. But there was something very curious about my grief, which was I found myself grieving not just the loss of the instrument, but also the loss of myself at this more fundamental level. And I remember you saying on one of your podcasts, you know, when I got injured and I had this chronic pain and I needed this spinal fusion surgery, it's like, am I not going to be an athlete anymore? And like, who's Rich Roll if he's not an athlete? So sometimes we don't realize how much an identity defines us until it gets threatened in some way, until we lose it. And so what's my advice from a cognitive science perspective in these inflection moments? Moments of inflection? Well, I'm not saying do away with identity altogether. Identities are so helpful in our lives. Right. If you identify as an athlete, if I identify as a musician, we feel immediate camaraderie with fellow musicians and fellow athletes. Right. Every day I wake up and I have a sense of purpose. It's like, okay, I'll just practice a couple hours and help stave off existential angst or any other worries. So I'm not saying do away with your identity, but what I am arguing is that it can be beneficial to expand our self identity to actually build more robust identities in the face of change. And what does that look like? Well, one thing I found very helpful is to define myself not simply by what I do, but by why I do it. So the question becomes, okay, well, what did I love about being a musician? I loved emotionally connecting people. I loved improving at a craft. I loved expressing my creativity. Just because I lost the violin didn't mean I lost what made me love it in the first place? Just because you had this surgery doesn't mean you lost what made you love athletics in the first place. And so then the thought experiment becomes, through what other outlets could I express this why? Because the why is still very much intact. It's a stabilizing force in the face of change, to define yourself by your why. And so I would urge listeners to ask themselves, what is my why? What is the thing that drives me towards the pursuits that I love? And can I embed that into my identity? Can I become someone who loves emotional connection and loves improving at stuff and loves being creative? And then it can serve as a compass. That why can serve as a compass as I try to figure out what my next steps are. And in my own life, I've seen that play out. Yes, I lost the ability to play the violin. But through podcasting and writing this book, I've been able to find that emotional connection elsewhere. By being a cognitive scientist, I've been able to have an outlet for trying to get better at stuff, you know, so there's lots of opportunities for us to still be who we are in a rapidly changing environment.

A (15:29)

Sure. The violin is just the vehicle for you to have these emotional experiences that are nourishing to you. And when you can glean some clarity into that, then you can hold your identity a little bit more loosely and then transfer your behavior towards something that will nourish yourself In a similar way, you're transferring the focus of your behavior, but the experience that you're after is still the same. Right. And to me, when I think about identity, it's really about your relationship with your identity, how attached you are to it, how strict is that attachment, and how hard are you clinging onto it? And if you are clinging onto it hard, why are you clinging it onto it so hard? Like, what is at risk if that identity is threatened? What would it mean if you could no longer do that thing? What would it say about who you are and how other people are going to perceive you? And that's a. You know, obviously, that can be an existential threat. But I think from a sort of evolutionary advantage perspective, like, we develop these identities and we become attached to them because they ameliorate the fear of uncertainty. Like, the chaos gets reduced because we invest in this story about who we are and what we do and what makes sense, and it allows us to, like, wake up in the morning and function. But fundamentally, from a Buddhist perspective, anything that you attach yourself to is going to create suffering. And, you know, they would go so far as to say, there is no such thing as the self. Like, the self is an illusion. And ultimately enlightenment is on the other side of recognizing that and realizing that it's all a delusion. Right. We don't have to go all the way that far.

B (17:27)

But I think, yeah, I'm not able to go that far.

A (17:28)

But I think I want to spend some time digging a little bit more deeply into identity. Because when you latch onto an identity and you allow that to define yourself, your mind will begin to tell stories about who you are, and you will believe those stories, and you will project those stories onto the world, and you will use them to get other people to see you the way that you would like to be seen. And that makes you feel. Makes you feel connected to other people. A sense of belonging, all of these sort of things that are good. But fundamentally, when something even in the slightest begins to challenge that, it leads to all kinds of behaviors that don't serve us.

B (18:13)

You're leading me to have an aha moment. So, first of all, that's so beautifully said. And what I'm realizing is one of the things that my violin life brought me was a strong feeling of community and belonging. So I was bullied a lot as a kid, Very, very insecure. It took me some years to realize, oh, I was one of a few kids of color in my school. Maybe that played a role. But little kid, my brain saw all the taunting and hurtful comments and cruelty as a sign that I was just a deeply flawed, broken human being who was, you know, bad in some way. Right. And I knew before you made that comment that I always valued the community that I had through music. But what I didn't realize until this, mom, is that that was part of why I was clinging on to my violin identity. Even after I was told that my violin life was over and I was in denial, and I was playing through pain and performing through pain and taking anti inflammatories and getting surgery, doing every possible intervention. It was because the violin made me feel special in some way, worthy. Like I mattered. And I was in an international community at music school that made me feel like I truly was a member. And if you took the violin away from me, then what did it mean for my self worth at this fundamental level? Maybe it meant that I didn't matter as much anymore. Maybe it meant that I wasn't. I didn't have anything that made me special anymore that would make the kids accept me.

A (19:53)

Right. So the community piece is the sort of laudatory aspect of this, but the other piece is the ego piece, right. And you're a striver. Like, you've. You're like, clearly you know how to set goals and achieve them and just operate at a very high level. So at the risk of projecting something onto you that doesn't happen in a vacuum, I would have to imagine on some level that you were raised by parents who sort of affirmed this idea that the way to go into the world is to work hard and achieve these things. And it's inevitable that if you're raised that way, you're gonna develop an identity that is contingent upon achievement, to feel a sense of not just value, but love. These things become transactional, and they're correlated to how much you can achieve and the diplomas and the awards, et cetera. And that's a powerful engine that can propel you to great heights. But at some point, if your identity is so reliant upon external validation and the ego is so hungry to continue pursuing it, at some point you're going to crash into a wall. Because if love is a transactional thing and not something that you truly believe that you are entitled to and that you have inherent value as a human being, irrespective of what you're doing in the world, that's problematic.

B (21:29)

So I would say that, first of all, only partial projections. So good job.

A (21:33)

Yeah.

B (21:35)

So some things you said are right and some things aren't, but let me. Let me. And I'm thinking out loud about all of this. Let me try to unpack it. So one is, I grew up in an Indian immigrant household. So absolutely my parents had these values of the importance of working hard, the importance of achieving excellence, the importance of success. That said, I never felt that their love for me was contingent upon my accolades. That said, I actually think that my motivations hearken back to the earlier conversation we had, and it was about control. So if I couldn't control my social environment at school and I couldn't control whether the girls in my neighborhood accepted me or liked me, well, what could I control? Maybe I could control trying to become really, really good at something and achieving something that could almost fill the void could make me feel valuable through some other lane, if you will.

A (22:33)

And if you're attached to specialness, then. And then that special thing gets taken away from you, then you have to hurry up and find something else to be special at.

B (22:42)

Yeah. And maybe special is going too far, because I don't think I. I don't know if I crave in my actual Life, specialness. But I do crave being, of course, loved by others and accepted by others. And feeling like I was accepted within my musical community is the thing that made me feel like I mattered. Right. And I wasn't always feeling that way as a little kid.

A (23:09)

So life intervenes. Some calamity occurs, just speaking generally. And the human animal has to figure out how to respond to this and adapt to it. And, yeah, we're not great at this.

B (23:23)

Correct.

A (23:24)

Why is this so beyond what we've already talked about? Why do we really rebuff these opportunities for growth and transformation and instead kind of recoil into our shell and try to pretend like they're not happening or deny their existence?

B (23:45)

Yeah. Well, first of all, denial is a very natural coping mechanism. And one sort of counterintuitive finding from my research for the book is that denial in the short term actually confers a lot of benefits. So just so people know if they're.

A (23:58)

Experiencing denial, it's a strategy for survival.

B (24:00)

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. It is a survival mechanism. Right. We want to retain some degree of hope and positivity and a feeling that things could end up better on the other side. Denial aside, I think it's actually because we. I don't always have a clear set of instructions about what to do next. And in many ways, my own frustration with this topic is what led me to write this book. Because, I'll tell you, you alluded to this earlier, but in 2020, my husband and I were confronting the first of many, many heartbreaks in our goal to build a family, to become parents. I remember in the face of the first pregnancy loss, the news that that happened, that I was beside myself with grief. And even though I had had formative experiences with change, even though I'd responded with resilience in the past, let's say, like an administration changes, okay, fine, you find a new job, whatever. Right. I felt so wildly unprepared for this moment. I think one reason I felt so unprepared is that this gets to the striver mentality. Rich. I am so used to hustling my way through hardship. So you give me a problem, I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna work harder. I'm gonna find creative workarounds to get from point A to point B. I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna hack this process so that I get to the end destination in this situation. What does it mean to work harder in the context of fertility and starting a family? There's no such thing. It is a perfect example of not having control of not having your hands firmly on the steering wheel. And so that was very disorienting for me. The other thing that I found so maddening is that people kept telling me this mantra. I kept engaging with it, which is while you can't control what happens to you, you can control your reaction to what happens. And it's meant to be empowering. It's rooted in ancient wisdom. But I, in that moment was like, wtf? How do I actually execute on this? I don't have a switch in my brain. I could just turn on and off like, ah, yay. Suddenly I feel and think differently about my change. Thanks so much, brain. I had no idea what the means were to get to that end state. And in many ways my book the Other side have Changed was a response to that need that I had. I was like, someone tell me, what are the tools and strategies that I have at my disposal? What are the right questions I should be asking myself? How can I actually change my relationship with this change? I need a manual of some sort and I don't have it, so I'm just going to create it. And the way that I went about doing that is I. I went on this hunt, I was like, let me try to find the most amazing page turny stories of change in the world. But I want to make sure that what lies within each story is a universal lesson that we can all absorb about how to navigate change better in our own lives.

A (27:19)

So if you've been listening to me for any amount of time whatsoever, you already know that AG1 Next Gen is the daily health drink that has been clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps. But what you might not know is that the person who's running the Ag show is a woman called Kat Cole. Now, despite the fact that I've been a loyal customer and fan of this product for about a decade, at this point I actually had yet to meet CEO Kat. That is until recently when I got to spend a few hours with her at this event that I attended recently called Eudaimonia. And what I can do tell you from spending time with her is that Kat is a real one. Not only did we really connect, not just about the company, but really as humans. I left our time together just super impressed by how much she really cares about the purity of the formulation, about transparency, and also about innovating new ways to best nourish people. So if AG1 is a product that you, you happen to be tiptoeing around, I would like to confidently say that this is your moment to finally jump in. Just one scoop contains 75 plus vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics and superfoods. So it's about as easy and convenient as nutrition can possibly get. Making for a new habit that will actually stick through my link@drinkag1.com richroll get a free ag1 1 flavor sampler and try all the flavors plus free vitamin D3 plus K2 and an ag1 welcome kit with your first ag1 subscription order the thing about health tracking is that we're now so inundated with data, most of which is surface level only, sourced from all different kinds of devices, all without actually understanding what's happening underneath. Sleep scores, step counts, heart rate. But what does it really mean and what are we supposed to do with it? Well, WHOOP answers these questions by giving you a complete picture of your health, from how you sleep to how you recover to how you're aging. And now with WHOOP Advanced Labs, they're bringing together over 60, 65 key biomarkers like cholesterol, vitamin D and cortisol with more than a hundred thousand daily health data points. When you schedule a lab test, you won't just get numbers, you'll get clarity on what's really happening inside your body, as well as next steps to improve your health. And what I love about all of this is that now, finally, everything I need to know about what is going on inside my body is consolidated into in one single place. Which allows WHOOP to provide me with the right guidance, which I need right now because due to my recent back surgery, let's just say I'm not exactly in peak condition. So getting a comprehensive picture plus a plan on how to rebuild my body is pretty priceless. Every test is reviewed by a clinician and instead of just raw results, you get a personalized plan that tells you exactly which habits. Habits from sleep to supplements are going to improve your specific markers. Go to join.whoop.com roll for one month free of Whoop. That's join.wH-O-O-P.com roll I want you to pause for a moment because I want to tell you about my friend rj. Now, you might know this guy as the founder and CEO of Rivian. He's certainly that, but he's really so much more. He's one of those rare people who actually walks the walk. I've watched him over many years and I know him to be this incredibly deeply committed person, committed to preserving wild spaces while also inspiring people to explore responsibly and that's basically Rivian in a nutshell. Their mission, keep the world adventurous forever, comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet, these are not separate things. They're the same thing. Here's what gets me. Every generation deserves wild places to roam, to climb higher, to run farther, to be changed by the journey. But obviously, that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there. So, yeah, Rivian builds electric vehicles, but really they're building something bigger, momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like, why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves? And that's why I'm so proud to align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation. It's about building a world worth exploring for our kids, for their kids, and for generations to come. Maybe because it has been for four or five years. Share a little bit about your life experience and what led you to become interested in this topic.

B (32:28)

Yeah. As a little kid, I was aspiring to be a concert violinist, and then a hand injury derailed my dreams overnight.

A (32:36)

Just to be clear, you were studying under Yitzhak Perlman at Juilliard.

B (32:42)

True.

A (32:43)

Is giving you a glimpse of the inner higher achiever that is sitting across from me.

B (32:50)

Yeah. I just. I felt so passionate about the violin that it was one of those things where my parents never had to tell me to practice. Right. It just came instinctively to me to want to do this thing. And when Perelman took me on as a student, a lot of the imposter syndrome that I had at the time went away. Because I thought, wow, this dude who's one of the best violinists in the world is giving me his vote of confidence. Right. He's saying, I think you have what it takes, kid. Right.

A (33:18)

And you were in high school at the time?

B (33:19)

I was 13 when he took me on as a student. Yeah. And he had only had a handful of students, so I felt so deeply honored. And then when I was 15, I overstretched my finger on a single note and caused tendon damage in my hand. And eventually, doctors told me that my dreams of becoming a violinist were over. And so that was my first very formative experience that changed. And we can talk later.

A (33:44)

We call that an identity crisis.

B (33:46)

An identity crisis. Yeah. And it's so interesting hearing your experience getting back surgery and dealing with chronic pain and injury. I found so many parallels between the threat to your identity that you felt and the threat to my identity that I felt. And we can talk in a little bit about what lessons I learned from losing the violin. But, but long story short, it was during this period of no man's land that I was in the summer before college when I stumbled upon a book by Steven Pinker called the Language Instinct. And it was the first book that I'd ever encountered about the science of the mind. It explained our brain's remarkable capacity for language. And it was one of those light bulb moments for me because I realized, oh my gosh, this thing that I've taken for granted my whole life, which is the ability to both comprehend language and produce it, it's actually the result of this really complex cognitive processing that's operating behind the scenes. And this book is giving me some insight into the awe inspiring organ that is the brain. And so it was with that book that I realized I wanted to become a cognitive scientist. And so it was my undergrad major, then I did a PhD, then I did a postdoc in cognitive neuroscience. And so to this day, I just. The same excitement, enthusiasm that I had for the violin, I have about the mind.

A (35:12)

Did you ever have a chance to meet Pinker and tell him that story?

B (35:17)

I met him when I was a freshman in college, actually. So one of the guests you found on the show, Laurie Santos, she was my undergrad advisor and I was in her monkey lab. And so Stephen Pinker comes into the lab one day and he doesn't know that I'm completely fangirling because the person who even got me in this field is now in front of me. I can't remember, Rich if I was sufficiently bold to tell him that story, but I think I must have said something like, you're the reason why I started studying this thing in the first place.

A (35:45)

So Yale undergrad, PhD at Oxford postdoc at Stanford, Obama Whitehouse as the in house behavioral scientist. And now you're kind of blowing up. Like, it was so fun to watch you in Chris Hemsworth's limitless series. Like, counseling him to get ready to play drums for Ed Sheeran was just like, really fun. So you're kind of like everywhere now and now you've got this book.

B (36:11)

I will say that on my life bingo card. I never saw being Chris Hemsworth brain coach as being one of the tiles. So everything that's happened to me in my adult life is just such a pleasant surprise. It was really fun to coach him on topics like neuroplasticity and cognitive reserve and kind of Strengthening our brains so that we can protect ourselves from age related decline. And then as you mentioned, yeah, now I've written this book called the Other side of Change. And I host a podcast, actually, I've been hosting it for, gosh, over four years now called A Slight Change of Plans. And what I learned from all those conversations, which I wasn't, because I was never expecting to write a book. It was not on my bucket list. Like, Maya shall write a book before she dies, right? I had no interest in writing a book. I heard it's really, really hard. And I'm a normal person. So naturally I wasn't sure that I would want to do that. And so the first moment where I thought, oh, there's a book that needs to be written here is when I had conducted maybe 50 interviews for a Slight Change of Plans. And I started to notice that there were these really interesting connections across stories that I was starting to observe. So typically in the throes of change, people really focus on the topic of our change. So, oh, you're going through a divorce. Go to the divorce section of the bookstore. Oh, you're going through pregnancy loss. Oh, find other parents or find other people who are navigating their grief in this way. Oh, you're going through job loss. Commiserate with a community of people who are going through job loss. But what I noticed was that actually, because of our shared psychology, because of our shared cognition, there was something that was uniting stories that on their surface looked nothing alike. So the person who was navigating a cancer diagnosis and the person who was navigating their husband having had an affair were both experiencing a profound feeling of betrayal. So actually there was more uniting their story than they may have found in someone else who on the surface was going through a similar experience. And so my goal was to figure out, well, given that we had this same. The same shared psychology, given that no matter what the change is, we end up reckoning with the same set of uncomfortable questions. For example, why is the world so unfair? What is my identity now that I've lost? What made me me? How do I grieve the future that I once thought was so available to me? How do I avoid the rumination in my mind? That's like all these loops that are playing in which I'm feeling regret because I'm actually blaming myself for what happened, Right? We're all contending with the same stuff in change. And so logically I thought, well, then that lends itself to the same solution set. And so that's Why? I went on a mission to find these stories. I wanted to find stories so none of them I've featured on the podcast. I wanted to find stories, again that. That were exceptional in their substance, but were so ordinary in terms of their psychology, you know, because that's like, the beautiful combination that exists for me. It's like, oh, the power of rich storytelling, you know? That's why your show is such a success. Like, people love stories. It's how lessons land for them. Right? And it's almost like hiding Brock. Like, hiding broccoli in, like, a kid's plate. It's like, well, I'm gonna get these, like, gripping tales, right? Like, real stories where people are just like, oh, my God, this is such a thrill to read. And I'm gonna, like, bake lessons that they can learn within those stories.

A (39:56)

Yeah, there's tons of stories. I mean, the woman who has locked in syndrome, the military officer in Afghanistan. There's all these different versions of people having to confront an unexpected event in their lives that is confronting them with. With their own relationship with the world themselves and with change itself. And so whether it's divorce, the loss of a loved one, cancer, like a cyclone, they're all cyclones. And so I would imagine you're a neuroscientist. So what is happening inside the brain? The brain is just seeing all the. This is just one thing for the brain. It doesn't matter the specific facts of it. Right?

B (40:39)

Right. Well, I think there's an illusion we all fall prey to within ourselves. And when it comes to observing other people, I think we believe that when a seismic change happens, suddenly everything will be put in perspective. We're going to stop caring about the stuff we used to care about. We're going to instantly become those different people. And of course, that's not true. So one thing that was so beautiful to me about interacting with the people that I got to interview for this book was hearing about how ordinary things still plagued the people who were going through these extraordinary changes. So a good example is the woman who was locked in. So there's this woman, Olivia, who I spent years interviewing, and she, when she was in her early 20s, had a severe brainstem stroke that led to Locked in syndrome, where basically you have no voluntary muscle movement except controlling the muscles that move your eyes so you can only communicate through your blinks. This is like most people's worst nightmare. I mean, you are trapped in a prison, which is your body, right? You retain all your consciousness, all your cognition, all your same emotions as before. But you have a very limited portal through which to communicate with the outside world.

A (42:00)

Like the diving bell on the butterfly.

B (42:01)

Exactly. That's exactly right. So that's locked in syndrome is Jean Dominique Balbi's story. And I think a lot of people would think, oh my gosh, when that happens, when such a harrowing change happens, you care about the big picture. Guess what? In this story, Olivia's diagnosis only really registers with her when her boyfriend's family shows up to the hospital. These people that she had for so long wanted to impress. And she's confronted with her inability to impress them in that moment. And that's when she realizes, oh my gosh, this is really serious. Up until that point, it doesn't fully land. Right. But how interesting is that? Like, we don't just shake off the stuff that we don't care about. I mean, there's another guy, Scott, who's facing a cancer diagnosis. He told me, on any given day, I'm more worried about losing my six pack than I am about the fact I might die. So as humans, we're not just instantly shining a spotlight on what matters, like capital M matters. We are the same people overnight.

A (43:08)

So what do you make of that in terms of how we interact with these changes?

B (43:14)

So I think what that means is I've talked about how through a change, you can shape potentially the different person that you become. But we have to see change differently than we do right now. So I think our brains instinctively view change, a change of the kind that we're describing as like, incredibly intimidating and very, very daunting. And we are. It's often unprecedented, so we don't even know how to deal with it. I think if we see change as revelation, it will build our natural curiosity in the face of change in a way that's actually very advantageous for us. So when a big negative change happens to us, it can feel like a personal apocalypse, right? Like the world that we know has been destroyed and nothing that we are excited about remains. The origin of the word actually comes from the Greek word apokalypsis, which means revelation. And that etymology is really instructive because it says like, yes, change can upend us, but it can also reveal really important things to us. So let's take the case of Olivia. It was only when she became locked in that she recognized what a hold other people's opinions had over her that she became aware of the depth of her people pleasing compulsion. And up until that point, she probably would have thought, yeah, I care what other people think. But when she was confronted with a reality where she could no longer control what people thought of her, where she could no longer curate the ideal image because she could literally only blink. Where she had to present the rawest, most vulnerable version of herself. It was only through that experience she realized, oh my God, my identity is so contingent upon what other people think of me. This needs to change almost by brute force, Rich. It needed to change. And she had to slowly, over time, see, oh, wow. When I'm being my more normal self, when I'm being irreverent, when I'm freaking out and allowing myself to reveal the freaking out. Whereas before, I would conceal it because I would never want to inconvenience someone and I would never want to upset someone. My physical therapists at this unit, they seem to really like me. Like, they seem to accept me as I am. And it was through the acceptance of others that Olivia had this kind of radical idea, which was maybe she should accept herself. And one of the most beautiful. I mean, her story is so wild, any words I try to put to it won't be of service to the full experience. But at the end, she said, my change got me to a place that it would have taken me decades to get to. A place of self assurance and stability and trusting in myself that would have taken me, me decades to get to if I ever got there at all. And I think that's a perfect example of the promise I see within change. If we can become observers of what a change sheds light on in ourselves, right? All the parts of ourselves that may have been hidden from view prior, we can then reclaim the steering wheel and try to. To course correct, to become better versions of ourselves.

A (46:51)

To become the observer, though, you have to detach from your kind of emotional clinging to these identities. And to me, when I think about this, it's really all about acceptance, like acceptance of reality. Because when you say denial, it's easy to say, well, denial is when people just aren't able to see what's obvious to everybody else. But we're all in denial. Denial is. It's just like there's nobody who's not in denial. And as it pertains to change, a way to kind of elucidate that idea is to remember that there is literally nothing in the entire universe that is ever in a state of, you know, animated suspension. Like everything is moving all the time. The universe is expanding, you know, all the way from the furthest stars down to the subatomic particles. Like nothing is in stasis ever, right? So how is it possible that we can believe that we are in some sort of static situation where we just are who we are and tomorrow we're going to wake up and we're going to be the same as we were yesterday. Like, you know, time is moving too slow for our human brain to kind of process what's happening. But the reality is that change is happening all the time, all around us. It's just happening imperceptibly most of the time. But we have this illusion that we can be on cruise control in our lives. And so to disabuse ourselves of that is to accept that change is like this fundamental energy source of the universe. Like you cannot arrest it, right? So it's happening. Of course, it's difficult to function if we walk around thinking about that all the time. But when we can accept reality and peel back the layers or pull the veil back on where we're in denial and where our attachments are leading us astray, then we're in a place of greater agency to make better decisions decisions and take better actions. Right? So I always look at these things through a 12 step perspective because that's my indoctrination. But when you come into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, you're probably in denial about the extent of your problem. Like, you're just like, leave me alone. It's not that big of a deal. It's obvious to everyone else that you're a chaos agent, but you can't. You can't see the wreckage in your wake. And sobriety is about disabusing yourself of that denial so that you can accept the reality of your circumstances and surrender yourself, surrender your will over to something greater than yourself. And when you were telling a story about trying to will your way through this childbearing situation that you were in, you know, obviously it's not going to work, right?

B (49:57)

Yeah, exactly.

A (49:58)

And the only way that you're going to be able to solve this problem is by first accepting the reality of it, rather than just trying to push your way through it. Because that is a defense mechanism that is getting in the way of you accepting the reality of your circumstances. Right? Like you're running away from it, thinking you can outpace it, but you're not going to be able to outpace.

B (50:19)

But here's the challenge, Rich. It's really, really fricking hard to engage in radical acceptance. So what I've tried to do with my work is build a compelling enough argument that there's a light at the end of this tunnel of acceptance. That's worth doing the acceptance thing for. Because otherwise, what's the promise? Oh, I radically accept. And then I have to feel the pain and suffering and grief faster than I would have otherwise. That sucks. I don't want to do that version. But I'm hoping with the strategies and techniques that I'm putting forward in terms of getting to the quote, other side of. I mean, there's a reason my book's called the Other side of Change. Right. I believe people can enter a more enlightened state where they become better versions of themselves, but they need to again, know the path to get there. And I think unless we give them the path to get there, it's easy to say engage in acceptance, but. But that's a painful prospect if you don't feel something better is coming.

A (51:15)

Yeah, of course. Listen. It's incredibly hard. Listen, my wife always says to me, everything is neutral until perspective is applied. So we make these snap judgments. This is bad. This is good. How is this happening to me? I can't believe it. What an injustice. I have to figure out how to solve this because this isn't right. But that is true. We label things prematurely without evidence. And in my experience, like, you know, all of the sort of cataclysmic things that have happened to me have turned out to be these blessings, you know, like they're gifts in the rear view mirror. Right. If you are able to leverage them and do all these things that you're talking about to transform your life. Your life. Because these painful moments are, you know, powerful levers for personal transformation. Like that's at the core of your book.

B (52:08)

Exactly, that's the thesis.

A (52:09)

And they're incredibly powerful because they catalyze a level of willingness that's generally unavailable to us to do things we ordinarily wouldn't. And they can initiate these journeys that take us to places we never thought we could go. But the problem to your point of it's hard is just imagine the person who's standing outside their home is as it's burning down. And then you're standing next to them and you say, well, this is like, this is gonna be the greatest thing that ever happened to you.

B (52:43)

Yeah. And they say a lot of times.

A (52:44)

Who wants to hear that? You know, like.

B (52:46)

Yeah, exactly. And I do wanna caveat, which is I wanted to make sure that this book was as honest as possible and that people did not get a overly rosy view of change. I would argue that the people in this book, many of them would absolutely not will for their change to have happened or to happen again. Who would want to say, yes, please give me the horrible health issue that I had, or yes, I would love to lose a loved one, Right? No one's gonna raise their hands and say, oh, that's great, but they all came out the other side grateful for the person that they became as a result of that change experience. So both things can be true. I do not wish for that change to have happened in my life, and I am grateful for the opportunity it gave me to reimagine who I could be. And we have to be comfortable accepting both realities simultaneously in order to tap into the promise of change. And I think one thing that I have learned about the value of change is that in everyday life, I think we think we falsely believe that we have a fairly good understanding of who we are. Our self concept is based on a very random set of data points that we happen to collect over the course of our lives that unfolded in a fairly arbitrary way that is not going to lead to a comprehensive view of who we are. And the argument that I make in this book and the reason why change is an opportunity to reimagine ourselves is because the unique stresses and demands of going through a change will reveal things to us that we did not know were true about who we are. So there's one story in the book where a woman experiences amnesia when she falls off her bike. And when her memories start returning, and in particular her family's stories of Colombian heritage, she experiences them with such delight and awe and wonder that she's later shocked to learn that she had carried so much shame around her family's heritage pre the accident. And she hadn't really internalized for so long until this accident. Oh, my God. I didn't realize how oppressive my views were when it came to my family's past. I didn't realize how embarrassed I was to share these stories. And most importantly, I never thought to challenge my beliefs in the first place. I never thought to ask myself, why and how did you arrive at these beliefs about your Colombian background? Why did you think that there was shame in these stories? Because we humans are busy. You're not like every day, you're not waking up being like, what belief am I gonna challenge today? What misconception do I have about my self identity that I'm gonna explore today? We're too busy for that. So then when the change happens, it does give us this rare and unique opportunity to look under the hood and see what's there. I mean, another example from my own life Is is when we were experiencing these pregnancy losses. Right. My husband and I, I did not realize how attached my self worth was to becoming a mother until I got that first piece of news. I really didn't. I knew it was a dream of mine. I knew it was a dream I had had since I was 5. I did not realize that in the face of that news, all of a sudden my life would appear in grayscale and I would think I didn't have worth as a human being because I'd grown up with all of these cultural forces telling me, this is your value as a Indian woman. You need to create a baby. You get married and you have children. Right. I had absorbed these messages subconsciously from all of these places. But as someone who had a promising career and is a strong, independent, confident woman, it was uncomfortable for me to learn just how much I tethered my sense of value to this dream and this goal. And I had to. The change made that salient. And then I had to do this uncomfortable work of kind of reconciling these two parts of Maya that almost seemed at odds with each other and kind of figuring that out. But that's the power of change. Because now I still don't have kids, but my relationship with motherhood is transformed. I don't see it as a necessary part of my identity or my future anymore. And I never, ever, ever thought I could get to that point of mental freedom where my happiness and my sense of worth was not contingent upon becoming a parent.

A (57:49)

So what is it that you actually did to go from that place to where you are now to. To have a different frame and a different relationship with that aspect of yourself that was so powerful and reared its head up.

B (58:02)

Yeah. I mean, it's so multifaceted. And there's probably 25 plus strategies I talk about in the book, but I'll share a couple with you now that pertains specifically to motherhood. Because the other thing about this book is that different strategies will work for people, depending on what they're going through, where they are in their life. Sometimes it's a combination of strategies that will work best. So I actually created this change survival kit at the end of the book, which is a consolidation of all of the techniques. And my advice is, look, not everything's gonna work for you every time. At times, only one thing will work. Sometimes it'll be a combination. And you just have to be. You have to be a detective. You kind of have to be an experimenter and just figure out, like, this is a Little sandbox. I'm going to play around with all these tools and see what works. Right? And so, because I found the pregnancy glosses so disorienting, I had to actually engage in my own exploration because I thought, oh, the stuff that worked with me for the violin, which was, as I described to you, I immediately pivoted to cognitive science. That was almost like a get out of jail free card when it came to surviving that change. Because I actually didn't have to do the hard work, I just subbed in something else immediately. Right? So let me share one technique that I use. Actually. My husband, unknowingly, on the night of the second pregnancy loss, engaged me in what's called a self affirmation exercise. So a self affirmation exercise is when you just do it in five or 10 minutes. You write down all the things that matter to you in your life, that make you you, that give your life meaning, that are not threatened by the change you're going through. So let's say you're navigating a particularly tough moment in your relationship. You might focus in your affirmation exercise on your spiritual life, or the fact that you have a really beloved community at work, or the fact that you love volunteering for the pta, Right? And what affirmation does is it allows you to zoom out on your life, gain greater perspective on your multifaceted identity, and importantly, research shows, makes you less likely to engage in long term denial. Because when to your earlier question, when you don't feel that your whole identity is under threat as a result of the change, you're much more willing to welcome it into your life. When you don't feel that your entire life depends on the relationship that you're in, you're much more willing to accept that it has fractures, right? That there are maybe fissures in the dynamic that you shared with someone else. So Jimmy, my husband, comes into our bedroom on the night of the second miscarriage and says, maya, let's engage in a gratitude exercise. And I'm like, oh, hell nah, bro. Okay, you take your Instagram bs, go over there in the corner, you do your positivity nonsense, your toxic positivity nonsense. I'm staying under the covers and I'm gonna feel bad for myself and just mope, right? Cause it felt so jarring, Rich, to do any sort of gratitude after the day we'd had. And just so you have a little bit of context, we woke up with the news that our surrogate was bleeding. Then we saw two healthy, beating hearts in the doctor's office, it turned out that our embryo had split in two, and we had identical twins, and they were healthy, beating hearts. And then three hours later, we found out she was miscarrying. So we had the most hellish emotional rollercoaster of a day. So I was not having it. Okay. But then I looked at him, and he kind of wore me down. And he's like, just try just, like, say a couple things. So I started to rattle off a couple things on my list. I was like, well, I feel really lucky that the same people that I worked with in the Obama White House I now work with today. Like, how special is it that I get to work with my best friends over 10 years, right? Like, a lot of people don't get to do that. That. I love doing zoom workouts with my personal trainer. Matt and I gossip about the Bachelor and Love is Blind. It's just like a wonderful friendship we formed while also doing something I love, which is strength training. I love that I get to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I love hosting a Slight Change of Plans where I get to have these incredible conversations with people that I never would have met otherwise. And as this list started just flowing out of me, I swear something magical happened. I had been so singularly focused on becoming a mom for years at this point that I had completely lost perspective on these other parts of myself. And I imagine a lot of people can relate to me, right? You develop tunnel vision when you're trying to achieve a goal. And all of a sudden I realize, oh, my gosh, there are so many other identities that I carry. Manager, student of my trainer, host of my podcast that I value a lot and that I take great meaning in. And for me, that was such a powerful moment of zooming out. And so I would recommend self affirmation as a way for people to see their lives with more balance and perspective.

A (63:19)

We contain multitudes. We think we're one thing. This is our identity, this is who we are. But we have many identities. Our identities, as I said earlier, are formed by these stories, right? And these stories are informed by our life experiences, the way we were raised by our parents, what we were exposed to or not exposed to, et cetera. But the brain. I'm interested in your perspective as a scientist. The brain does this weird thing where it unconsciously selects experiences from our past and assigns meaning to them. This experience is more meaningful than all these others that you've forgotten, right? And so we're going to over index on how Important this is. And it's going to, to over time drive your decision making for the rest of your life. Right. And the process of not just challenging your beliefs, but challenging your beliefs around your own story. Right. Like, yeah, that happened to me, but I forgot that all these other things that are in opposition to that thing also happened. And yet my brain seems to dismiss those and say that this one is important. Like putting the lie to the test about what this story is. And then you realize, like, oh my God, I've been living my life reactively based upon this story that is fundamentally a lie. All of our stories are lies. They all have very loose affiliations with the truth and they're informed by such a small selection of experiences or something somebody said to us when we were in second grade. But they become incredibly predictive of our behavior later on. It's kind of an astounding thing. So in terms of challenging our beliefs, like our worldviews, that's one thing. But I think the real juice is in like that formative. Because that's the constitution. Right. Upon which you're basically running the government of your life upon, Right?

B (65:26)

Yes.

A (65:28)

And yet what you were saying about challenging your beliefs, we're now in this current modern moment where everything is driving us away from challenging our beliefs. We've never stress tested our worldviews less than we are now. And we're kind of seeing the consequences of that right now. So how do you think about our relationship with technology in the modern world and how it's impacting all of these things vis a vis your perspective on navigating these changes in life?

B (66:01)

Yeah. So the stories we tell ourselves about who we are is something researchers call our narrative identity. And what do we prize when it comes to our narrative identity? Cohesiveness, simplicity, a nice arc over time. What does that not allow for? Nuance, Complexity. Right. That's one of the reasons why we engage in these bizarre mental shortcuts. Or we have all these biases when it comes to how we process our past. We want to assimilate the information that lends itself to the narrative we've already built around who we think we are. But that becomes this self fulfilling prophecy where we don't allow in information that might challenge those beliefs or might help us build a new narrative about who we are, unless we're very conscious about doing that. And so that's why we see almost like the disservice that we sometimes like it's a disservice to ourselves to not be more adaptive and to not Build more malleable narrative identities. And so one chapter of my book actually focuses on how it is that we can proactively challenge our belief systems. Not just about the world, but about who we are and our families and our places within those families and our self identities. Because like you said, we are in a time right now where that's the last thing that people are doing. In part because people are so closely tethered their belief systems to their identities. So talk about identity threat. If I change this belief, is that challenging who I am at a fundamental level, is that challenging my membership in the community in which I belong? That's a very scary prospect. So there's a couple of questions that people can ask themselves, or at least biases to be aware of. One is that our beliefs are not sacred, immutable truth truths, okay? I think we tend to believe that we've arrived at each belief we have through a process of conscious deliberation and you know, a hyper rational mind and weighing the evidence and, you know, deliberating. Of course not. Right? Because we already had bandwidth constrained minds. We're just absorbing a bunch of stuff all the time, right? In the same way that I didn't consciously arrive at my beliefs around motherhood, I was just subconsciously and consciously absorbing tons of messages that were hitting my brain from all over. And so you should ask yourself, would I have different beliefs if that message had been delivered by a different messenger? Would I have different beliefs if I had been in a different emotional state when I had received that message? Would I have different beliefs if I had been born in a different time or in a different place or into a different family? How would my belief system be different if I had grown up with only one sibling versus four or whatever it is, right? So you start to poke these little holes and you start to see the apparatus crumble a little bit because you realize, oh, wait a second, so much of my belief system, it's kind of like this tapestry and everything's kind of entangled with one another. And if you were to jostle it a little bit, like everything gets affected. So if I change this one thread, this one belief thread, it can actually affect everything else, which is why it's scary, but it's necessary work. And then the other thing to ask yourself is to actually probe individual beliefs. So how did I arrive at this belief in the first place? Right? How did I get from point A to point B? Would this belief be something that those who I respect agree with? Or would they maybe find holes in my logic and then this is my favorite one. What evidence in theory would convince me to change my mind? The reason I love this last one is that it presupposes that you ought to be willing to change your mind in the face of evidence. A lot of these techniques, by the way, come from the.

A (69:55)

It's also holding you accountable if you do receive that piece of evidence that you promised yourself you would change your mind if you got. Right.

B (70:03)

Exactly, exactly.

A (70:04)

So you're kind of priming your brain.

B (70:06)

Yes, and I love that because it assumes that beliefs are not fixed. It allows you to see when you are laboring under faulty notions. Right. Like you have beliefs that are not sufficiently based in evidence that may be holding you back in some ways. I'm not saying to believe in whatever you want in ways that self serve you. That's not what I'm arguing. It's that so much of, of what we've grown up with is entangled with forces that we might not even respect that much, you know, like especially the beliefs that we build when we're little kids, right? Those beliefs are bound up in our sense of safety and belonging and attachment. And so if we were to not believe those things that we are told by caregivers or teachers or friends in preschool or elementary school or whatnot, that might challenge our fundamental sense of just being a whole human. And so those childhood beliefs are particularly hard to challenge. But when you do, and as I write about in the book, there are stories of people experiencing profound freedom when they leave a belief behind and they enter this new space. And one of the people that I interviewed said it's kind of like playing a game of Jenga, like it turns out. So this woman Ingrid in my book says you can actually pull one of the slabs out and everything still stays. And it turns out I didn't actually need this belief. It actually wasn't true and it was really, really holding me back.

A (71:38)

Two reflections on that. The first is that what you were doing was asking questions, right? So this gets at. This is sort of your questions to statements ratio thing that you talk about, right? Instead of saying I am this, you're asking yourself questions that don't necessarily have answers yet that you're going to go on a hunt for. So rather than making these definitive proclamations about who you are, what you believe to be in a stance of inquiry. That's the first one. And the second observation is that the process of inquiry is really is the active tense of curiosity, right? And curiosity is really at the heart of all of this. So Talk a little bit more about how curiosity plays in this.

B (72:35)

I love that. Yes. It's funny. When I was thinking about what I could promise the reader of this book, it felt disingenuous to say, this book's gonna make you happier. I hope it makes people happier, but that might not be the outcome. What I do believe it will do is make people more curious. That is actually the optimal end state as far as I'm concerned. And it will give them the right set of questions to be asking themselves to, you know, to engage in some kind of self interrogation. So I think one way in which curiosity is so important is when a big change happens in our lives, it can immediately a big negative change happens in our lives. I'm not talking about like, oh, my God, you got your dream, whatever. But honestly, sometimes there are unexpected downsides that come with something that we really willed and were hoping would happen. I mean, just look at all the scientific research on lottery winners and how unhappy many of them turn out to be. What happens is we can feel our lives closing in on us because when the anvil does fall from the sky, all of these doors around us close and our lives feel very, very constrained because all of these possible futures that we imagine for ourselves no longer feel available to us. Okay? And I certainly felt that at these junctures in my life, it's like, oh, my God. All the possible Mayas that were going to be a violinist no longer exists now what? Right? Or all the possible future Mayas who were going to be a mom, those don't exist right now. Now what, right? And so the problem, if we're not curious and we don't interrogate our thoughts, if we don't engage in what's called metacognitive awareness, which is when we think about our thinking, is that our brains can actually limit our us in terms of our imagination of what's possible beyond what is reasonable. And that's because we have all sorts of stereotypes that we built over the course of our lives. We have our own lived experience which has informed what we believe about the future. And so we may believe that there are a very narrow set of options available to someone, for example, who is incarcerated or someone who's a teen mom, or someone who's a caretaker or someone who's. Who's navigating a chronic illness. And in the research, these are known as possible selves. So we conjure up these possible selves all the time when we're just living our everyday life. When you had to go through your back Surgery. And you were imagining Rich, who's not the athlete, that was a possible self. When I'm imagining as a young kid wanting to become an astronaut, that's a possible self. So we have hoped for selves, which are the ones that are like, really desirable. Those reflect our dreams and our aspirations. We have feared selves, which reflect our anxieties and our worries. And then we have expected selves which are the versions of us that we think are just most likely to come true. So, yes, I wish I could be Taylor Swift, but more likely than not, in five to 10 years I will be a cognitive scientist who is a profound nerd still, right? And so what happens is when the big change occurs, the hope for selves decrease and the feared selves increase. Because now all of a sudden, doors are open into futures we never wanted to see open. Right? It's like, oh, there's a guy, Dwayne, that I interview in the book. He has a remarkable story where he, as a 16 year old, was sentenced to nine years in an adult prison for a carjacking he committed. And he was excelling at that moment in time. It was just a stupid mistake, right? He was trying to prove his machismo to the boys in the neighborhood. But, you know, he was on his way to potentially study at Georgia Tech. He was class treasurer. He was a sweet, sweet, sweet kid to his single mom. Like he was crushing it. And then he makes this choice. And what Dwayne says is that, that he wasn't simply grieving all those futures that he could have lived out, like the one where he went to college and the one where he went to prom and the one where he got his first girlfriend. He was so fearful of who he might become within the walls of prison. Am I going to become violent? Am I going to develop all sorts of addictions? Am I going to have to steal a knife just to protect myself? You know, like he was so filled with fear because he felt that he was destined to become a certain kind of person because he was a prisoner. And that's a very common thing that happens. We feel we are destined to become a certain kind of person. If I'm child free, I have stereotypes in my mind of what that looks like. And so I just want to share a couple of ways that we can generate more positive, like more promising possible selves. But I want to also. I just talked for a while, so I want to let you interrupt me.

A (77:37)

Yeah, I don't know where to pick that up. But in the case of Dwayne, that exemplifies this idea of all these future selves, whether they're aspirational or somewhat, you know, more realistic, all get wiped off the playing field. Right. It's like removed and. Right. And so that constraint, okay, now my possibilities are much more limited than ever. So Dwayne is not wrong in thinking that now his, you know, his future selves are constrained and limited. You know, it's a reasonable fear. Right. But in his case, there is an intervening event when this guy Bilal enters the picture and, and you can tell the story, but it gets at this idea that you talk about called moral elevation.

B (78:27)

Yeah, moral elevation is, I think, maybe the concept from this book that has changed my life the most. And I'll explain why in a second. But moral elevation is that warm, kind of fuzzy feeling we get in our chests when we witness someone else's extraordinary actions. So it might be their kindness or their self sacrifice or their courage or their ability to forgive someone or. Or their resilience or their empathy. Right. Like any upstanding human character trait can create a feeling of moral elevation. But what's really important to understand about moral elevation is that it doesn't just feel good. It actually changes our brains. It rewires our brains, that experience. And the reason is that when we witness someone violate our understanding of what humans are capable of in any given environment, it cracks open our own imagination about what is possible for us because we now have to assimilate this information. Like, oh, my God, humans are capable of this thing. What does that mean for what I'm capable of? But it's all. It's the positive stuff that we're capable of. So like you mentioned about like a year into Dwayne's sentence, he runs into this guy Bilal, a fellow inmate. And Bilal violates all the assumptions Dwayne had about what it means to be a prisoner. So Dwayne had believed you have to be ruthlessly self interested. You have to be, you know, you can't ever get close to people. You have to kind of, you know, keep your cards close to the chest because you might enter into, you know, harmful relationships. But Bilal was a guy who Dwayne said took a stand and was like, no, this is my identity. And what was that identity? Well, he trained all the younger boys on how to box so that they could protect themselves. He cared for the younger inmates. When he heard about a potential instance of rape, he wanted to make sure he helped out that kid. He would always crisply iron all of his clothes he was up hours before the guards even came to do their cast, doing 250 push ups. Dwayne says that Bilal was an example to him of someone. He says this most beautiful thing. It almost makes me want to cry. He says, bilal was an example of what it means to be lovely. And I found that so moving. Dwayne realized through Bilal's example, maybe I don't have to be a certain way just because I'm in, just because I'm a prisoner. Maybe there are these other available futures to me. And what's so powerful about moral elevation is that it doesn't just exist in the domain of that person's example. So it's not like Bilal was the head of the Muslim community. It's not like Dwayne was aspiring to become the next head of the Muslim community in the prison or that he even aspired to help protect the younger once he got older. In fact, Duane was like, I was kind of a weakling. Like, I wasn't particularly strong, and that wasn't my lane. I wasn't gonna be able to help teach the kids how to box. I didn't know how to box myself. But what it did do is it cracked open his imagination. And then a couple of weeks later, when he's in a prison cell and there's this amazing, vibrant underground library where they're, like, trading books, he encounters a book of poetry. That's one poem speaks to the experience of black boys in prison. He suddenly thinks to himself, oh, I could do this. I can be Bilal in my own way, which is to write words that speak to the experience of underrepresented kids in prison. That is my lane, because I know how to write, and I'm going to be a poet. And if it hadn't been for Bilal, Dwayne might have read those same words in the poem, but it would never have registered that he was capable. And so from that point forward, he writes poems like they're his daily exercise. And he speaks to the experience of being a boy of color behind bars. And fast forward a couple decades. I mean, talk about a badass. He's a Yale Law School graduate. He's a MacArthur genius prize winner, and he writes the most beautiful, stirring poetry that gives voice to the experiences that we would never have heard of otherwise. And so he is playing the role that Bilal played for the younger boys in prison. And I just find. I find that to be so inspiring, Rich, because it is a dark time right now in the world. Like I don't want to turn on the news. I don't want to go on social media. It just feels like we're being bludgeoned by negativity. But when we make it a point to witness acts of moral beauty because we are keen observers, it is everywhere to be found.

A (83:31)

That's a really beautiful story. I think what Bilal is modeling is possibility. Like, he's instilling in this person who feels stuck. And in a situation where there isn't possibility, he's demonstrating that possibility is possible. Right. And once that becomes a brain worm, Dwayne can put it to work as soon as he's exposed to something that inspires him. But I think what's interesting about moral elevation is that. That it's qualitatively different from something like motivation and inspiration. Like, it would be easy to say, well, I saw this guy Bilal, and it was so inspiring. And I was inspired, because I think when we get into this discourse around change, so much of it is about, like, motivation and inspiration and determination and grit. And the people who weather these things well are the people who have that strong capacity for self will, for grit, for determination, for just committing themselves and buckling down, or they're just internally motivated or they're receptive to external inspiration. So talk a little bit about those things and how that's different from moral elevation.

B (84:50)

Yeah. Moral elevation is actually not about motivation or discipline. Right. It's about witnessing human. Human capability really at its core, and then reflecting that back on yourself and trying to figure out whether you might have greater depths of things that you really value, like depths of kindness or depths of forgiveness or depths of resilience. When I was writing this book, I ended up remembering a moment of moral elevation that I had experienced, which I didn't even code as moral elevation at the time, but it was. When I saw footage after the Horizon shooting at Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina. I saw the daughter, Nadine Collier, of one of the victims extend forgiveness to the racist killer in the courtroom. And I was just absolutely blown away by this, because she demonstrated a depth of forgiveness that I literally did not think was possible for humans. And to my earlier point, was I looking to forgive someone during that moment in my life? No. But it didn't matter. What that moment of moral elevation did for me is that it planted a seed that maybe I was just capable of more as a person than I thought possible. And that's the power of that experience. And it doesn't even translate right away. That's the thing. It's not like a, oh, I've now seen this, and now I'm going to change my life. These things have these kind of soft influences, and you don't even know. You don't know when. You're also going to have that moment of moral elevation. Right. That's going to totally change your life. And actually on that point, because you can't will moments when other people's moral beauty has that profound impact on you, I talk about some other strategies that people can use. The first is to remember that at a moment of inflection, you still have all the same experiences and skills that you've built over the years, even though you have to pivot. So, for example, I lost the ability to play the violin. Yes. And none of the technical skills that violinist Maya built were ever going to be useful, except maybe I have a sense of rhythm. So I'm, like, not a terrible dancer. Okay. And so. But what I did build as a violinist was grit. I built an incredible resiliency in the face of failure. I just built kind of a fearlessness. As a little kid, I was going on stage and performing in front of thousands of people. So those were traits that could serve me in my next venture, no matter what it was. And so a helpful question people can ask is, who else can this person be? Who else can Rich be? Given your myriad experiences and the vantage points you've generated over the course of your life, and all of the perspectives and all of the skills that you've built and all the talents you have, those don't go away just because you're at a moment of inflection. And one way that we can actually kind of try these, whatever we decide might be in our future, one way that we can actually try these on for fitness is to read fiction. Interestingly so, some researchers call fiction an identity laboratory because you get to go on these little journeys with characters and in this very psychologically safe space, because it's not you. You get to sort of brainstorm, like, how would I respond if I was a teacher? How would I respond in this situation where I'm being confronted with a harsh truth? Or what would it be like if my personality changed a little bit like this or like that? And so fiction can also be a really nice way for us to generate these new selves that come into being when we think about the past set of traits or skills or experiences that we've had.

A (88:57)

That's so interesting. So it allows, like, on an unconscious level, your. Your relationship with identity to kind of roam around you know, like, it's going up and down the aisles of a grocery store, like, looking, you know, trying costumes or what have you in the Halloween store.

B (89:13)

And there's no risk because you're in the safe space. They're just like sitting on an armchair reading a book. Yeah.

A (89:19)

I wanted to go back for a second to what you said about the woman who forgave the shooter. Obviously an example of moral elevation. And when you were sharing that, I was thinking, oh, what this is doing to Maya is it's allowing her unconscious mind to ask questions about your capacity for forgiveness because.

B (89:49)

Or other things, by the way.

A (89:51)

Yeah, but like, to say. Or whatnot to say, it's allowing your unconscious mind to ask yourself questions. So perhaps there's somebody that you're struggling to forgive for something that happened a long time ago. And. And you're asking yourself, well, maybe I, you know, could I forgive that person? I just saw this other person do that. Like, that's possible. So that's that seed of possibility. Right. And that's. That's sort of. That's active curiosity. Right. Instead of saying, well, I could never forgive this person. But to your point about being somebody who is very determined and has a good degree of grit, and these are good traits that are engines for success in the context of trying to navigate a very difficult change that's being foisted upon you, they can also act at cross purposes with trying to acclimate to them, because I'm going to bear down and I'm just going to get through this. And you're missing the opportunity of this experience for that transformation. Because if you're so determined and so gritty, you have blind. You're wearing blinders because you're just looking at the direction that you want to go, and you're not available for kind of the miracle, the possibility that is packed into that kind of experience.

B (91:13)

Yeah, I've heard you say this on your pod. And I. As you can tell, I'm a listener of rich roll because I love your show, and I really agree. And I think actually. So one part of the transition from violinist to cognitive scientist that I didn't share that speaks perfectly to what you just said, which is giving yourself space, almost a period of discovery to allow the magic to happen was part of my experience. So I remember my dad's a physicist, so he's not in the musical world. And he had some emotional remove from my life as a violinist. And so when I lost the ability to play the violin, I remember asking him, what the heck Do I do now? Right? What do I even study in college? And my dad said, you've effectively been wearing blinders for the last 10 years of your life. You started playing the violin when you were six years old and you've been on the speed train ever since, which means that you have not gotten sufficient exposure to what the world has to offer. And so he put me on this exploratory mission the summer before college. He said, I want you to watch documentaries. I want you to find people you admire and just listen to them talk. I want you to have conversations, read news articles, read books that you would never have read otherwise. But importantly, you can't do any of that with a goal in mind. It just has to be from a place of curiosity and joy and finding stuff that piques your interest. Please, please, please do not try and figure out how that translates into your future career. It has to be open ended in order for this whole experiment to work. And I didn't understand how wise it was in the moment to tell me, don't do this without a North Star. He must have known, okay, I've got a type A kid here she's gonna try to figure out immediately. Cause I was the type of kid, right? 5 year plans, 10 year plans, 15 year plans. Gosh, like I swear to God, I was living in the future from the time I was a little kid. It's only in the last decade that I realized, oh my God, there's this called the present. I think we might have even talked about this last time. It's like a discovery that there's actually this moment to live in, which by the way, is a joy. And so my dad told me to do this. And it was during that period that I read the Steven Pinker book. And if I had been solving for my future career, next step. First of all, I didn't know cognitive science was a field. It would never even have occurred to me until I looked in the Yale coursebook and saw like, oh, this is a major. I would not have known how to even connect those dots. So I might not have even have reached for that book. And so I think you're right. You have to kind of. There's a whole chapter in the book that's about fostering psychological distance between you and your current preoccupations, like the challenge that you're going through. And to your beautifully articulated point, that distance is actually a critical part, part of unlocking the transformation within a person.

A (94:25)

Yeah, essentially it's detachment coupled with sort of being able to see the forest, through the trees. Right. Like having an open disposition, a receptive disposition. I mean, that advice that your dad gave you is incredible advice. I mean, good for him. That's like amazing advice. But when I think about psychological distancing and the way that you just framed it, I can't help but think about Adam Grant's idea around being a scientist, which on some level is a psychological distancing from whatever it is you're trying to make sense of. That also requires curiosity and an openness and an uncoupling of your opinions and your emotional attachments to these things to allow yourself to receive ideas that might conflict with your identity or your worldview, receive them without getting triggered or being agitated. And to be in this constant process of asking questions.

B (95:34)

Yeah, yeah. To actively seek out data, like you said, that might contradict your views. Yeah. His approach of thinking like a scientist is inspired by the economist Arnaldo Camoufo. And I think it's a brilliant lens through which to view our lives. Because what does a scientist do? They don't make too many prior assumptions. They go in with a relatively unbiased point of view. And that is the opposite of what it is like to be thinking about our minds in the first person perspective. We only bring prior knowledge and biases to the table when we're reflecting on our own brains. And so it's a wonderful way of bringing a more objective lens to the table through which to see whatever the situation is that we're going through.

A (96:27)

When a very inconvenient and uncomfortable change lands in your lap, it's a case of easier said than done to say, be a scientist about it. Right. It's like some terrible thing happens or something that our brain is labeling.

B (96:41)

Yes.

A (96:42)

And we're just on fire emotionally. We can't think rationally. We're overwhelmed with fear and judgments that we're making about this and agitation and anxiety. So it's convenient to say, well, you should be a scientist about it. So help walk us through how you ground yourself in those situations that are so, you know, riddled with fear inducing consequences.

B (97:14)

The first thing I would say is it's only helpful to be a scientist when you even know what problem you're trying to solve. And when we climb out of the rubble of a terrible change in our lives, often we just, we don't see black and white clarity, we see gray space all around us. We're completely disoriented and we're not even consciously aware of what it is that's troubling. Us so much, much. And so the sobering answer is it needs time. We first need to take time to reflect on our emotions and what it is that we're going through in order to get to that much later step of trying to be a scientist about our problems. Like that's step five or 15 in the road of the change experience. You know, I think that there are short term strategies we can use to just calm our nervous system down and to try to get to a point where we can even engage in that kind of reflection. And so a lot of this comes from research on the science of rumination, right? So often on the heels of a big change. Certainly for me, I mean, I feel like you said, I got a PhD in cognitive science. I got one in rumination. Like I'm a pro ruminator, okay? I loop through my fears over and over and over again, or I loop through some prior decision. And that can be a maddening process. That can be a maddening part of the change experience. And I actually think to your point, it's our way of grappling with the discomfort of uncertainty. So when we ruminate, what are we doing? We're actually trying to get a clear, definitive answer. On the other side, we're trying to get get what scientists call cognitive closure. But most of the time there are no clear answers to be had. It's fool's gold. Whatever we're ruminating over almost certainly isn't going to lead to any productive ends. And by definition, rumination means you're looping over the same thing you're trying to problem solve, but you actually aren't making any progress at all.

A (99:16)

You're also likely serving some emotional need. You're doing it for a reason, because it's doing something for you.

B (99:24)

It gives you the illusion that you are controlling, I think, your environment. So you think, well, maybe if I can fully figure out why this person broke up with me or betrayed me, I'll never experience another betrayal. Maybe if I figure out all the ways in which my family can be harmed, I will be able to keep them safe forever. Maybe if I figure out why I lost my job, I'll make sure that I never lose anything again. It's this illusion that if we marinate in these feelings and we think about the risks over and over and over again, we will insulate ourselves from that risk. And that's the tricky, devilish side of rumination. Because every time your mind gets stuck in a loop, you believe that there is reassurance on the other side when there's not.

A (100:15)

And the way out of this is metacognition techniques.

B (100:18)

Well, I would say metacognition is too much to ask of someone when they're in the throes of a ruminative cycle. Okay, thinking about your thinking.

A (100:27)

It's spitting out of control.

B (100:28)

Yeah. And then you're just like, oh, yeah, think about your thinking. It's like, come on, man, that's too hard for me. This is where some more foundational psychological distancing strategies can be very, very helpful. So my favorite one that I've been using a lot recently because of the sort of the feeling that we are in an unprecedented state on a societal level is mental time travel. So our brains have been given this remarkable ability to travel both forwards and backwards in time, and we can actually leverage that to our advantage. We can travel into the past to contextualize whatever problem we're currently facing within the broader context of human history or within the broader context of our personal lives, in which we may have shown greater resilience, or in which society engaged in collective action and solved some big existential problem. We can also travel into the future as a means of reminding ourselves that our current problem is transient. So let's say you have a really bad interaction with a coworker. And that night, like at night, 3am you're just going over and over and over that conversation, right? If you travel in time 5 hours, 15 hours, 15 years, suddenly it's like you burst the balloon and you think to yourself, oh, my gosh, I might not even have this coworker in 15 years. And then this conversation is really not going to be as troubling as it is now. On the other hand, if you're like me, there have been times where I've been so fixated on one of my concerns. In the last chapter of the book is actually memoir. And I reveal just acute mental suffering when I was a teenager and into my 20s, where I was just so fearful of my future children's suffering, it just happened to be the random thing my brain latched onto. And when I am in the throes of that kind of worry, my brain convinces me, no, you will be worried about this forever. So for some reason, the mental time travel in the future doesn't help me at all. And in those moments, what I do is I try to mine my past for moments in which I was similarly resolute in my convictions that I was never going to be free of a certain concern. But I turned out to be wrong. So I was absolutely sure I was still going to be worrying about X problem five years from now. And then it turns out five years elapsed and I wasn't still worried about that thing. So mental time travel is one and then the other is just psychological distancing more broadly where you pretend you're kind of a fly on the wall in a situation. So this is work that Ethan Cross has done and others where you recall the situation with your co worker but from a more impartial observer's point of view. Or you coach yourself like you would a friend and in turn you give yourself a lot more self compassion than you might have otherwise. Because I'm a self berater and I'm very, very self critical. So I sometimes don't give any compassion if I feel I've erred in some way or another. Technique, which is very, very simple and it almost sounds a little gimmicky, but it's very effective is to talk to yourself in the third person. So rather than saying, oh my God, I need to get a grip, you say, Maya, you need to get a grip. And that immediately forges a bit of distance between you and your problem so you can see it through a more objective lens. And all of these techniques just kind of again for me anyway, they kind of calm me down and they just give me some much needed perspective on the problem that I've been consumed by. That feels like the biggest problem in my entire life. And it's a reminder. Oh actually this is probably not as big a deal from a cosmic point of view anyway than I thought.

A (104:14)

Yeah, speaking of cosmic, I mean the ultimate psychological distancing is to telescope up above the atmosphere, which is what doing you're your dad kind of did when he took you to the cemetery, right. And basically was like, listen, everyone's gonna die and there's gonna be suffering and you know, like, you know, have kids. It's just this is what life is. It's like we're all destined for this place.

B (104:37)

I don't think Rich, they write in parenting books. My dad's rather. It's harsh but like unorthodox approach. But long story short, I was just freaking out about human suffering in college when everyone else was being normal and having fun because I was reading about hate crimes and my spiraling over all the ways that my future kids could suffer. And I think the reason I latched on to this topic was because motherhood had defined me so much. And so the things that scare you the most are the things that you feel threaten, what will make You. You. Right. And my dad, like you said, he took me to the cemetery. And as we're walking and looping around this graveyard, he just pauses at one moment and says, no matter how big your fears grow to be, all suffering is finite. Like, all suffering will end too. And it was so interesting because not everyone feels reassured by how vast the universe is and how relatively small we are, how transient our lives are. But I felt reassurance, like suffering itself, as this massive category that was really intimidating for me also had an end to it. And this speaks to maybe one of the most powerful ways to dampen our rumination, which is experiences of awe in which we encounter something really vast that challenges our understanding of the world. And awe can come in all sorts of forms, right? The, the common ones are nature and music and art, but it can also be what my dad exposed me to in the cemetery, these big conceptual ideas of the universe. It could be moral beauty, right? It can be a skyscraper, the complexity of a math theorem, you name it. But what awe does from a neuroscientific perspective is that it quiets the default mode network. It quiets the part of our brains that engage in self immersion, which allows us to step outside of ourselves and to forge some distance between our current anxieties and worries and to remember that we are actually part of a collective, that we belong to a group that's bigger than ourselves. And I think in some way that's what my dad was doing in the cemetery that day, which is, I was also reminded, oh, you're part of this, like, long history of humans, all of whom have suffered in some way. And so that doesn't make your life or your future life unusual in any way.

A (107:17)

To the extent that these changes challenge our identities and our attachment to those identities, they also give rise to new identities, good and bad. Right? Like, I think when you're in a. When you go through something very challenging, there is a bit of a fork in the road. Like, if you were to be really reductive about it, like, are you going to be. Are you going to cultivate sort of a victim mentality around this, or are you going to develop a more empowered, agency oriented sense of yourself as a result of this? And it seems to me that the people who emerge from these experiences with that empowered sense of agency are the people. And there's many examples of this in your book are the people that figure out how to attach meaning to this experience, like some kind of positive meaning. Right? And maybe that's a conscious decision because it gets to the fairness and justice piece. This is so unfair. I have to figure out how this can be meaningful because otherwise it's like, it's too frightening, Right. That the world, that the universe is so chaotic and that this would just happen. So where does that meaning piece fit in for your perspective?

B (108:42)

Yeah, so it's really, it's so interesting you make that observation because. Absolutely. I mean, we are natural born storytellers, right? It's the way that we make sense of our lives. And we are going to want to, you know, irrespective of your spiritual or religious beliefs. Our human psychology is wired to assign meaning to the events in our lives. But what's really interesting is that there's a chapter in my book that features a woman named Marianne where she actually has to relinquish her belief that things happen for a reason in order to make progress. So one thing that can happen for people who love exerting control in their life, people who have what scientists call a internal locus of control. So if you have more of an internal locus of control, you believe that the events in your life are the result of your doing okay. Good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people. If you have more of an external locus of control, you believe that a lot more stuff is random. Right. You are receiving randomness from the universe, and there's all these exogenous factors that actually determine how your life turns out. So in this particular case, Marianne has a very strong internal locus of control. She grows up in, in her family environment. It is an input output model, as we talked about earlier. And then her worst imaginable fear happens, which is she ends up harming someone by accident. But because she has such a strong internal locus of control, instead of seeing it as what it was, which was an accident, she believes that she is 100% to blame and that she must be dangerous in some way.

A (110:26)

Yeah, the meaning is, I'm a bad person.

B (110:28)

I'm a bad person. And for decades, she lives a wildly constrained life because she believes she has this bad essence within her. And by the way, this was a social scientist, but she developed supernatural beliefs about the world, namely that she had a bad essence because she was so wedded to her belief that she was dictating outcomes in her life and that the world was just in some way. Right. It was fair that the universe, that the scales balance in the universe, that she decided she has this thing that might unleash itself at any moment. So she basically closes herself off to the rest of humanity. She sees herself as a threat. And it's only decades later that she starts to release her grand grip on her belief in a just world and to believe that actually some things happen just because. And that's actually a critical insight because sometimes when we try too hard to ascribe meaning to the events in our lives, we ascribe the wrong meaning, we ascribe the wrong takeaway. And what should have been coded as just an accident in her brain became a full on identity crisis for her that prevented her from living a full, meaningful life. And this is what I mean by there's different tools in the other side of change depending on what you're grappling with. So you're reminding me actually through this conversation that I have that strong internal locus of control. Because I remember after the first pregnancy loss, I was convinced that because it was the same day we saw, the same day we had an ultrasound of the heartbeat. I was convinced that it was the ultrasound that caused it, because I had been the one to license the ultrasound so early at the six week mark. I'm a scientist, Rich. I know what ultrasounds are capable of doing or not doing when it comes to a biological entity. And yet I was so eager to blame myself for this bad thing that happened that I decided to believe in something totally irrational.

A (112:41)

But what's so interesting about the way that you frame that, you frame it as ironic, the previous example, also a cognitive scientist, like, these are people that should know better. I actually think, to me it makes perfect sense because I have to imagine on some level, science is a self selecting group and people who are attracted to it are people who are trying to make sense of the world. And what they want to do is deconstruct it, take all the parts, take it all apart, and then figure out how to put it back together. Because it is soothing. Some aspect of themselves that wants to feel like everything makes sense or can make sense, which gives you a sense of control. There is a control mechanism at the core of, of the scientist archetype. So to me it's not surprising at all that when chaos enters the picture that that is extremely unsettling because it doesn't match up with like your whole kind of relationship with the world. And so you have to figure out how to fit that little puzzle piece in in a way where it feels seamless. Right? And so your brain is going to make up some fantastical reasons to make sure that your worldview, which is that the universe is an assemblage of puzzle pieces that can be assembled, remains Intact.

B (114:07)

I'm smiling because I've never heard someone say it that way, and it makes total sense. I think that's exactly right. We want order and logic and natural laws, but human psychology is complex, and the world is complex in a way that we will never comprehend as humans. And you're reminding me of someone I write about in the book who's a software engineer. So you think again, that same kind of hyper rational, logical brain. They get diagnosed with cancer, they blame themselves for the cancer. And when I ask them, you know, it's possible that you didn't actually, you're not responsible for this cancer. And by the way, this person had been like a health nut.

A (114:53)

Yeah, like a super.

B (114:54)

Yeah, super wellness. Exactly, exactly. Super health nut. They were like, maybe I didn't follow the right diet. And it's like, maybe you actually played no role whatsoever in this and that you had some genetic predisposition for bone cancer and that's why this happened. And what they told me was, if I'm gonna take credit for the good stuff that happens in my life, I need to be willing to take credit for the bad stuff that happens. I need to be willing to own. Have ownership for the bad stuff. Because it was so unnerving for this person to relinquish control, to believe that their life really was random. They would rather incur the emotional penalty of believing in that kind of. In that sort of logic model and blaming themselves for their cancer than to believe that they didn't have. Because what would it mean for this person if they didn't cause their cancer? That would mean that they wouldn't control. They wouldn't be able to control if they. They wouldn't be able to control other outcomes in their future that they desperately wanted to believe they controlled. It is an unnerving prospect to relinquish your grip at the steering wheel in that moment.

A (116:03)

It also confronts that person with the truth, which is that this notion that he can take responsibility for all the good things, that he's the reason that those things happened. We all want to do that, but. And we overlook all of the. All of the things that kind of played into whatever that thing is that we're claiming responsibility for.

B (116:28)

Yes, exactly. And all the luck and randomness, that was part of the equation.

A (116:32)

It's called into question as well.

B (116:34)

Yeah, that's exactly right.

A (116:35)

All right, so we're sitting here, we wrap the podcast. I go to my office, and I. And I get a very disturbing confirming voicemail. Something terrible has happened. I don't even want to say, right, and I am in a state of complete shock and agitation, but you're still here. And I have the advantage of being able to ask you what I should do next. So what is the counsel to the person who is suddenly confronted with their version of this kind of. Of change scenario in terms of they've read your book, they've listened to this, and they're like, okay, well, now here it is. How can I, with the awareness that I have, that I have this opportunity to make a different choice about how to respond to it. Why is all of this so important?

B (117:28)

Because there's so much opportunity hidden within the hardest moments of our lives and so much potential that we can actually unlock from these moments. And it requires a reframing of the experience in order for us to unlock that potential. So I've now interviewed people for hundreds and hundreds of hours for a slight change of plans and for the other side of change. And I've been astonished by the sense of possibility that people have been able to entertain for themselves and the realization of that possibility. People have reached heights that they never thought, that they never even felt was safe to imagine for themselves prior to the change because it just wasn't within the conceivable landscape. Right. So we talked about Dwayne becoming a MacArthur genius winner. We talked about how Olivia has a kind of self assuredness that rivals meditation teachers and yogis. Right. Looking at her, and she's in her late 20s. I aspire to have the kind of unshakable internal confidence that Olivia has. And then there's people that I interviewed who they faced, you know, blindness and then become world renowned chefs. And I actually think, rather than me trying to do the like, summary thing, I actually think Tara's story is a really beautiful example of this. So she spent her whole life being avoidantly attached and not getting close to anyone after her dad died. And then the change she experienced led her to entertain this secure attachment. And now she has this life brimming with like, love and joy and community and richness. It's a version of herself that she never ever thought would be accessible and never would have been accessible had she not gone the through change.

A (119:49)

For me, Maya, the defining feature of change is that it is loaded with potential and possibility. And change is like the inciting incident that allows it to be released and made manifest. But from your perspective, like, what is, what is the value proposition of all of this for the person who is going through it?

B (120:15)

Yeah. You know, I think when we are navigating an Unexpected, negative change. Our instinct is to see that experience as something that we just have to endure, like it's something to endure. But my argument is actually that it is a rare opportunity for us to imagine new versions of ourselves that we never thought possible and that are truly incredible. There is the gift of a better version of Maya sitting on the other side of change that is possible to access. And it's the unique conditions of the change that are going to allow that new Maya to become a real entity.

A (121:05)

And your experience of interviewing hundreds of people and the research that went into to your book underscores this point that this possibility for transformation is possible for anyone who is going through it. They don't have to endure it. It can be this lever for growth, evolution, change, and transformation.

B (121:32)

I have spent years interviewing people across such a diverse range of changes, but the thing they share in common is how much awe they feel for the person they became as a result of their change. And that was wildly unexpected for me. I didn't go in thinking that there was going to be this silver lining to some of the hardest moments in our lives, but time and time again, I saw people, people accessing these new versions of themselves that were better. And I think one story in particular from my book really exemplifies this. So a woman named Tara has a really devastating experience. As a young kid, her father commits suicide. He was a veteran of the Vietnam War and had really debilitating ptsd. And in response to that, she becomes deeply avoidant. She has a very avoidant attachment style. And because she loved her dad so much, she pledges to herself that she will never, ever open herself up to other people in that way because she's unwilling to feel that depth of pain again.

A (122:49)

The risk of abandonment is too severe.

B (122:52)

Absolutely. And then what happens later on in her life? She experiences a very unexpected change that is harrowing, but that forces her to rework her attachment style. So, contrary to popular belief, attachment styles are much more malleable than researchers once thought. We can take conscious, deliberate steps to actually build more secure attachments. And the attachment styles we built in childhood are not destiny. So that's really important to clarify. And so Tara takes these deliberate steps, and it fills me with so much joy to see the life that she has built for herself as an adult. After years of closing herself off to rich, meaningful relationships, she has a life that is brimming with love. And I'm awestruck when I see that, because it is a perfect example of someone who would almost certainly have still had an avoidant attachment style going into her 50s, who is now living a radically different existence. And it's not simply that she has others to support her during times of crisis. Other people have her to support them. And I think many people would look at Tara's life and envy it and assume she must always have been this way. But then you realize that it was actually a moment of change that inspired all of this transformation and growth.

A (124:31)

But for this intervening event, she would have gone along her merry way with her avoidant strategy for the rest of her life. And this interruption was the catalyst for the growth and evolution for her to finally heal this wound, to, you know, mend her relationship with intimacy and allow herself to expose herself to the risk of being, you know, of giving and receiving love.

B (125:03)

Yeah.

A (125:03)

Yeah. Which is like, you know, that's the most beautiful thing, because that is ultimately the most important of anything.

B (125:11)

Yeah. And it's given her this mindset that is so new and fresh for her, where she said, I can find myself at times when life gets really hard, retreating back into myself. And then I ask, do I want to be the old version of Tara, or do I want to be the new version who takes emotional risks but gets this massive, massive payoff? And she said, for as long as I can, I'm going to choose the last. And that's the promise of change. It can give you the kind of transformation that someone like Tara endured. And that gives me so much hope when I think about the promise of change for everyone.

A (125:53)

Susan David famously says, discomfort is the price of admission for a meaningful life. We don't necessarily seek out, out or welcome discomfort into our experience, but that really is the crucible for our growth and our evolution and for, you know, our relationship with our own change. And the change that you're talking about is compelling us to marinate in discomfort. And rather than resist it, if we can accept it and realize that it is, you know, it's baked with opportunity, then we can have our version of all of the experiences that you've shared with us today of these wonderful people in the book. So it really is. It's an important service that you're performing by helping people understand this. It's really beautiful.

B (126:48)

Thanks, Rich. Yeah. Look, change is coming for all of us, whether we like it or not. And so my goal in writing this book is to give people the companion they need along the way so that they can unlock the same kind of beautiful change that I've seen the people I interviewed for this book unlock within themselves.

A (127:10)

Beautiful. Well, thanks for talking to me today.

B (127:13)

Thanks so much for having me, Rich.

A (127:19)

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn Learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today. Visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra Voicing, Change and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube YouTube and leave a review and or comment and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course our theme music was created, created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants n.