← The Rich Roll Podcast
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- [00:02]
A
How do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear mongering, without scaring them to death? And how do you show financial and business success and you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning? What would you know some of these great leaders that have come before me, what would they have done if they had been afforded this opportunity? And can I look at this as a gift? And can I give myself the space to really think I think our health is worth fighting for? I think women are worth fighting for. I always say there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care. If I'm being completely honest, it's still hard that there are people that hate me or are angry with me about things that I didn't actually do, and I have to just live with that.
- [00:59]
B
What's up people? Podcastlandia Good to be with you today. I've got a feeling that today's guest, my friend Greg Renfrew, back for round two, might have attracted at least a few people brand new to me. So if that's you, my name is Rich Roll. I'm an ultra endurance athlete. I've got a few books to my name. I'm also a husband and a father of four and this show, which I started way back at the end of 2012, is basically in service to becoming our best selves for the die hards out there. You might be looking for a little bit of a life update. On that note, the back is continuing to heal slowly. I've been able to ride the indoor bike, I've been able to get a little bit of swimming in and it's been a busy few weeks. I was in Florida where I was able to get in the ocean, which was fantastic. And I was there to speak at this conference called Eudaimonia, which was my first time attending what is a fairly new wellness event, but appears to have quickly become like the event, a sort of Sundance meets South by Southwest meets Expo west for the health and longevity set. And that has left me reflecting on the state of the wellness industrial complex movement. And I think I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, it is kind of astonishing how much this movement has grown over the last decade. There were literally thousands of attendees at this event, hundreds of vendors, dozens and dozens of speakers and presenters, just a ton of energy. And while all of this is great, people more invested than ever in up leveling their lives. It is also a bit bizarre and somewhat disorienting because when there's so much to take in, it can be paralyzing for the average person because it becomes more difficult to identify the signal amidst the noise. And so I guess it left me thinking about how I can be a better beacon going forward, a better signal or lighthouse to filter out the noise. And so, starting in January, I'm going to start experimenting a bit with this show to better focus on serving the primary mission of this podcast, which is wisdom relevant to self actualization. I've got a lot more I want to say about this in the new year, but I am pretty excited about it and I'm confident that you're going to dig it. And before we get into Greg, I did want to touch on last week's podcast with Todd Marinovich. Usually when I have addicts or former addicts on the show, they arrive with wisdom gleaned from long term sobriety. But the one with Todd was different because this is a guy who's still very much in the struggle. So much so, in fact, that I suspect he might have even been somewhat altered during the conversation. For those of you who checked it out, you probably noticed that I was leading him a lot, even having to tell parts of his story for him at times. I didn't want to do that, but I kind of felt it necessary because it was pretty clear he was struggling to articulate his thoughts. Look, not everybody is super verbal, so that's all fine, but I just think there was something more going on here because his demons were right there on the surface and the pain he was feeling was pretty palpable, I think. But the thing is, and maybe this is for those who were a bit disappointed in the episode or how I handled it, that is addiction. It's just fucking powerful when it's staring you in the face like that, when the depths of despair it produces are just so undeniable. And I've learned that the only way to help somebody so deep in the grip is to just create a non judgmental space to listen without giving advice and to engage the best I can with compassion. And I hope that came across and I hope that it provided you with perhaps some lessons for how to engage any loved ones you might have who happen to be in the throes.
- [05:02]
We are brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. A few years ago, there was this guy, his name's Joe Chura, and he called me up out of the blue and asked if I would speak at this event that he was hosting in Illinois called go, which turned out to be this incredibly memorable weekend for me and for all of the attendees because it was all about how to take inspired action. Joe and I connected, but, you know, life moved on. That was many years ago. Then a couple years back when I was at Jesse Itzler's Running man event in Georgia, I'm walking the grounds when I see Joe. I was surprised to see him again, of course, sort of different context, but also surprised because he had actually taken inspired action. I shouldn't have been surprised knowing Joe, but I guess I was in the moment. What he did was he took this idea of GO and he turned it into the hottest new brand in non alcoholic beer called, of course, Go Brewing. What sets Go Brewing apart is their refusal to cut corners. Everything is handcrafted from scratch in small batches. This commitment to quality has propelled Go Brewing into one of America's fastest growing breweries. Now in over 5,000 locations across 20 states, their salty AF Chalada claimed the untapped number one non alcoholic lager spot in America. They're constantly dropping all these bold new flavors, double IPAs, incredible sours, all without added sugars or any artificial nonsense. The non alcoholic revolution isn't coming. It's. It's here, people. And I'm really honored to be championing it with Joe. So get on board by getting with go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code rich roll for 15% off your first purchase. That's gobrewing.com code richroll.
- [07:02]
We'Re brought to you today by seed. I have hosted so many microbiome experts on the show over the years and the more I learn about this very complex aspect of our physiolog, more fascinating it becomes to me. But there is one thing that is simple. A happy gut is the foundation for a happy body and a happy life. And to get there requires care, requires intention. It requires a daily gut health promoting ritual that for me begins with seeds, DSO 1, 2 in 1 probiotic and prebiotic formulated with 24 strains that are clinically studied and proven to survive the digestive journey. It's been shown to increase good gut bacteria by 400%. But it goes beyond just the gut. TSO1 supports your whole body. It's formulated to reduce abdominal bloating and intermittent constipation in as little as two weeks. And I can attest to noticing personal improvements in my digestion, in my energy levels and overall gut comfort. So go to seed.com richroll and use the code richroll20 for 20% off your first month of DS01.
- [08:19]
All right, Greg Renfrew. I had around five years ago to talk about her advocacy on behalf of toxin free cosmetics and also her entrepreneurial journey to building Beauty Counter, which at that time was well on its way to becoming a clean beauty empire, which is an industry that this woman helped define. But a lot has changed since then, and the story she has to tell today is less about business and more about how to navigate change. Spoilers aside, it's a story about what to do when your identity collapses. And the journey she went on to decouple that identity from her self worth to reimagine the company she lost and reinvent herself anew. So this one is about the tension between ego and humility. It's about leadership under pressure. It's about fortitude, vision, resilience, and what it means to prioritize values over optics. Along the way, we take the temperature of the clean beauty movement and the work that remains to remove toxic chemicals from consumer products. Greg is a real one. She's one of the most tenacious people that I know. And this one is laced with wisdom you won't soon forget. So let's do the thing. This is me and Greg Renfrew.
- [09:35]
It's great to see you, Greg. And I have to say right off the top that you are a fucking baller, because this story, what you've just endured, that you've been on, is literally like a season of succession. I mean, it really is like you're just playing ball on a professional level, business wise. And I know you've really gone through it and you're kind of emerging out the other side right now. So I want to hear all about it because last time we talked, it was, I think it was late 2019, when we recorded that episode came out in 2020. Things were quite a bit different at that time.
- [10:15]
A
They were.
- [10:15]
B
So why don't we just pick up where we left, where we left off?
- [10:19]
A
Okay. How many hours do we have? Yeah, okay. So last time we spoke, so 2019, 2020. Things in that era of Beauty Counter, which is my old company, were on the up and up. You know, it was an interesting period of time. And I think that having really pioneered clean, we were, you know, sort of enjoying the fruits of our labor. And I felt like we'd built this incredibly solid company and community and had grown it. But in 20, maybe 19, sometime around then, we had been approached by a Strategic to purchase the company, one of the large conglomerates. And as I said, in the end, I turned them down. And I literally turned them down. I mean, you got to like imagine all these conglomerates, everything super buttoned up in their suits and their, you know, whatever. And I, I said, you know, you're kind of like the guy that I want to marry, but I'm a little bit young and you didn't propose at the really good rock, and I'm going to say no. And they literally looked at me like, you're kidding. I mean, I literally said that to them. So I bring this up only because it led my investors to wanting to sell the company. It whet their appetite seeing that they were going to make a good amount of money off of Beauty Counter, which by the way, they had the right to. They'd invested a significant amount of capital over a number of years. And so we ended up going out in the winter of 2021. We made the decision to sell the business. And in the fall of 2020, I had read Bob Iger's book the Ride of a Lifetime, and I had been inspired to continue my journey and was really hoping to sell the business to a financial sponsor that would afford me the opportunity to keep going, to be the next generation leader in beauty and to go public. And we ended up selling the business in May of 2021 successfully to a private equity firm at a really strong valuation, which was great. But immediately after I sold the business, the business kind of stumbled that summer because it was the summer that the world opened up post pandemic and people changed all of their patterns of behavior. And that didn't bode particularly well for me.
- [12:31]
B
So at the time, at that moment, I think you guys were doing something in excess of like 400 million in revenue. Carlyle comes in, cuts a billion dollar check essentially to take a majority stake in the company. But also part of that was you're going to stay on as CEO, and this was the opportunity with this massive infusion of cash to expand and grow the business and position it ultimately for an IPO at some point.
- [13:03]
A
That was the plan, right?
- [13:04]
B
This is not what happened.
- [13:06]
A
No, no, it's not exactly what happened. No, it definitely is not what happened.
- [13:11]
B
You know, walk me through what, what, what unfolded and, and what unraveled from there.
- [13:17]
A
So a billion dollar valuation for any company, certainly also in Beauty, is, is a pretty significant valuation. And what comes with that is, I think, I mean, I think in retrospect, I nervousness at the top levels of the investment Committee in terms of the valuation that we could commit, even though we had other people that were there. So they weren't the only ones. I think people think they were the only ones. But I think that in retrospect, I probably should have seen some signs that they were a little bit uncomfortable. But anyway, we signed on May 20th of 2021. And that day is important to me because it's my father's birthday. My dad died a really long time ago when I was in my 20s. And so it was kind of like this moment, like, wow, we actually did this. I started a company, I sold it for a billion dollars. And they believe so much in me and my business model, like, they're gonna let me continue to really grow this business. What happened was that post pandemic for many people who had been kind of cooped up inside for the last year or two, they, you know, they redirected their spend away from skincare and cosmetics and into clothing and travel, you know, fashion, whatever. Anything that wasn't what they had been spending on, you know, this. Everybody was doing this. We all kind of went a little crazy that summer. And because we had built Beauty Counter predominantly on a platform of sort of what I would call the OG creators, a bunch of women who were representing the brand and, you know, educating their clients and serving them with our products, those women also went on vacation and they did it. And so what happened was the business slowed that summer and they. In the fall, in October, I got a call on the way, actually I was driving to parents weekend for my daughter's high school parents weekend. And they said, we don't think you can manage the business anymore. And you know, this, I mean, it's an obvious situation. Whereas if the business fumbles, of course it's the CEO's fault. And I think at that time they felt, as many investors did, that they. That we'd enjoyed this Covid bump and that they had maybe bought something that wasn't as valuable.
- [15:20]
B
But how could they overlook, like the sort of key man dilemma that you presented? Because you're so embedded. You're not just the face of the business. It's like your relationship with your, I don't know what the term is that you use for your sales force. Like all of these partners, these women is so integral and crucial to the health and well being of the business that to remove you. How could they have not foreseen that this was going to be problematic?
- [15:50]
A
Well, at the time that they decided to bring in a CEO, they did bring me into the process. Even though I was incredibly upse.
- [15:58]
B
They.
- [15:58]
A
Thought that I could coexist with this new CEO and that I could be the head of the brand and the face of the community of women and.
- [16:04]
B
Really involved in products while letting this other guy kind of operate.
- [16:08]
A
And I think that they thought then this sort of tried and true operator who came from old school beauty and had been at these large companies would be the answer to whatever streamline operations and or increased margins or whatever it was that they were trying to achieve. What actually happened. I mean, it's honestly in some ways less about Carlisle and more about the choice in the CEO that they brought in, because they brought in someone for whom.
- [16:38]
Working with me was just not an option. And the very first meeting I had with him, so he was hired, I guess in late December, early January. He officially started on January 1st, February 1st of 2022, and literally our very first meeting, he canceled. And that was indicative after I'd kind of publicly said I'm supporting this and I got all these women looking to me. To your point, I was the face of the brand and the movement and I embraced it as best I could in a forward facing way. But he made it really clear that there wasn't room for both of us in the business. And if there's one thing I've learned through all this is that arrogance has no place in the business world. And to ignore those who built the business and have sort of own all the institutional knowledge and experience from that business is just a really bad decision. And he just didn't want anything to do with it.
- [17:31]
B
Well, a major blind spot also being just the fact that he was a dude and this is like such a women first organization, like top to bottom. Seems like from the top down was a myopic decision to begin with. And then the fact that, you know, he couldn't make room to collaborate with you, I mean, it's doomed.
- [17:50]
A
From the start it was, you know, it's funny because when we met prior to his signing the contract, he said, I kind of look at this as like 70, 30, you know, in certain areas, you know, I'll have 70% of the decision making. In certain areas you will. And the things that I really cared about were the mission, because that's why I started Beauty Counter in the first place, was to protect the health and safety of people by removing toxic chemicals from personal care and cosmetics as well as just in general from the world as best I could. So I was supposed to own the mission and the brand and the community of women. That we had served and that of which there were about 60,000 of these women who were looking to me and also were building businesses with us, some large and some small. So I kind of felt at the beginning that I was going to have a lot more say. But what happened was.
- [18:39]
He really felt like he had something in his mind. I don't really know what it was, and I didn't really fit into that equation. And, you know, I'm not exactly like a wallflower. So in fairness to him, I was kind of like, you know, from the beginning, like, I'm not gonna listen to you tell me what to do on all these things. And that didn't work very well.
- [18:58]
B
It seems like there were two critical errors that this guy makes, and I don't know where they fall in the timeline, one of which is, you know, he cuts this big deal with Ulta, right? So it seems like I infer from that that he doesn't have that much reverence or respect for the community of women who were doing all the sales for you. He just wanted to get it into stores. And obviously it's a big win to get into a huge commercial retail enterprise like that. But at the same time, to me, that kind of reveals like, oh, this is where he wants to take it more so than to nourish this community. The engine of the company were all these women, right? And then secondly, this rearrangement of the commission structure, all of these women, which obviously was incredibly damaging and disrupting to the business.
- [19:49]
A
I think that the commission structure, when I sold the company was in need of some change. We needed to modify it, because they're only. People don't realize this half the time, but they're only like 100 pennies in a dollar. And so you can only move. You can move dollars and pennies around as much as you want, but at the end of the day, there are only 100 left. And what was happening at the time was that there was a very small group of women who had built significant teams that were enjoying significant incomes from the business, some of whom were actively working the business, some of whom were no longer actively working the business. And then you had a lot of women who were earning, who were sort of the. What I would call the dabblers who were working an hour to four hours a week, enjoying it, being part of the community, weren't really in it for the money at all, but they were making less. And so what we. What we had all decided prior to selling the company is that we were going to take a Look at the commissions to figure out, are there ways to maximize the commissions for increased productivity and retention and democratize the opportunity a little bit. So I did participate in conversations about that and I did believe that there was a need for change. That said, I strongly encouraged them not to do it at the time or to him not to do it at the time. And that I thought it needed modification. And that was something that he said. I've run salesforces before, I know how to do this. And put me out there to sort of be the one to do right.
- [21:16]
B
Specifically you were like, if we're gonna do this, we have to give them a year notice in advance before this is gonna take effect. And he ended up like just saying, no, we're gonna basically do this right away.
- [21:28]
A
And he ended up retracting what they did, but it was too late. I think that what, you know, there's so many things that there's so many learnings here. And I think that to your point, you and oftentimes in life and business like you do need to make adjustments and something, you know, you start something with the best intentions or on a spreadsheet, it looks a certain way and then it plays out in real life differently. So I didn't disagree in any way with making adjustments to the compensation. We had done it before. We'd made a radical change to our compensation structure years earlier. But to your point, we gave everyone a year. We brought the leaders in, we let them co create it with us. Not that they were excited about it, but we got their feedback and we then changed things a little bit modified. Then we told them in small groups, then we told them in larger groups, then we gave them the time and we showed them a path to how to rebuild. Because you can adjust, but if you can show someone, I mean, this happens in financial institutions all the time. We all have shitty years or things change. But if you can show someone how to rebuild that people can get their heads around it. But that didn't happen. And so I think it was very abrupt with a new CEO and with me being in a different role. And we lost their trust very quickly. On the Ulta side of things, I think that.
- [22:45]
I also believed in the decision to go to Ulta, but I believed it in a slightly different way. I thought if we could use some of the. A small portion of our products in a select group of stores to increase brand awareness, that it would actually be accretive to the businesses of those who sold. Because when someone else is validating it, that's Interesting. And there's more interest exposure out there. That's actually helpful. And in past times when we'd done shorter term partnerships with Sephora or Target or Goop or whatever, it actually helped the women that were selling. But to do a massive rollout with the entire line of products at the same price point with better shipping policies and things like that, that was not helpful.
- [23:22]
B
Remove the value proposition altogether for these women trying to sell it to their friends. Right?
- [23:29]
A
Yeah. And also they were great partners and they were the right choice of partners at the time. It just again, I think you can't take an old school playbook and apply it to an industry disruptor. And we went from being a purpose driven business built on community, predominantly on the power of women with an emotional connection to not just the products, but what we were trying to do, whether it was changing laws or educating communities to a highly promotional, transactional corporate entity, it just doesn't work.
- [24:01]
B
This is the life cycle of so many companies. Obviously you found a company, you grow it, there has to be an exit strategy. There needs to be a way for the investors to recoup. And whether it's sale to a private equity firm or whatever shape or form or a conglomerate, it seems more often than not what you just said is what happens. It's like there's all these promises made or excitement about all the growth and all the opportunity that this cash infusion is going to allow everybody to grow the company. And yet inevitably it ends up diluting the brand and kind of accelerating its irrelevance all the way until it's like these companies sell and then you never hear from them again. Or the product that ends up on the shelf is you're like, well, this isn't the same thing. It was. This is just what happens. Right. And in your case it was even worse. Like it just culminated in a foreclosure because of the accumulation of all of these sort of not so great decisions stacking up on top of each other.
- [25:10]
A
Yeah. I think that in fairness to venture capitalists and private equity firms, I do think that they do go into it with a level of passion and excitement for the business and an intention of making it better. Like, I do think people don't enter into these relationships in general with mal intent. I think one of the biggest problems though is that, well, Wall street in general is arrogant. Let's just call spade a spade. And you and I both know a lot of people on Wall street and I love a lot of people on Wall street. But there's a level of arrogance that comes with earning a lot of money. And there's a disproportionate sort of compensation structure to those who work on Wall Street. You have people that have actually never operated a business that are looking at a spreadsheet and thinking, if I just tweak this a little bit here, I can make it a little. Make it a little bit more profitable, and we borrow a little money, we can sell it for this and we'll make this. And that's. I remember saying this to Jay Sammons, who was the lead from Carlisle, who I absolutely loved and still love. He's an amazing person. And I remember saying to him, jay, there's this spreadsheet and there's the real world. You need to start living in the real world. And he still laughs about it today because there was. A couple weeks ago, there was a cargo incident in the Long beach port, and someone dropped a bunch of cargo into the water. And that water is my holiday packaging. So I was like, you literally can't make this stuff up. And that did not exist on today's spreadsheet or last year's spreadsheet. And I think that's one of the biggest rubs, and it's why you see so many companies either falter or become irrelevant, is because there's a disconnect between the people that are investing who haven't operated and the operators. And it's not that the operators don't make a ton of mistakes and don't have their own set of issues, because we do. And as founders, we have plenty of issues and we make a lot of mistakes. But we do know how to operate the business. And things that seem very obvious at face value are often. There was complexity and context there that is often lost on others.
- [27:08]
B
Right under appreciating the human factor and the unpredictable problems that inevitably arise with this arrogance of like, oh, that's so nice and cute. You've built it. You built, like, a really cute thing. Like, now we'll take it. Well, the adults will take it from here.
- [27:27]
Thank you very much, and here's your check and go on your merry way.
- [27:30]
A
Yeah, and that's. I mean, I do remember the CEO on a call in front of a whole bunch of people saying something like, I'm really proud of Greg because she's one of those founders that knows when to bring in real business people or something like that. And I was like, dude, seriously, I started a business that sold it for a billion dollars. I think I would consider myself a real business person today. And by the way, I've worked really, really hard to earn the title of CEO. Not a founder CEO, like a real CEO. I worked my ass off to become a better CEO through executive coaching, through a lot of constructive criticism, and really learning more about the financial areas of the business, which do not come naturally to me. And so, you know, to make those types of patronizing. I mean, yeah, there are founders that are idiots. Of course, there are lots of people that are idiots. But in general, they're probably relatively intellig and probably know what they're doing more than you think. Yeah.
- [28:25]
B
So there's a series of machinations and things go on. They bring you back to be CEO for a while, and all kinds of stuff is happening. But eventually, Carlisle essentially ends up closing the whole thing down. Right. And it goes into foreclosure. It's just. That's gonna be the end of the story. And this is where you have this second act pivot with the whole thing. So explain.
- [28:54]
A
You know, it was actually. It was kind of an incredible thing.
- [28:57]
B
So basically, $700 million of equity evaporated.
- [29:04]
A
Yeah.
- [29:05]
B
And is this Carlisle's, like, worst investment ever? Like, they're just. They recoup nothing out of this.
- [29:10]
A
They recoup nothing out of it. It was hard. You know, I think that in fairness to Carlisle, they really did, in earnest, try to find a home for the brand. And whether that was through some sort of financial sponsorship or selling it to a strategic. But I think that the business was a little too broken and a little too late. And I think that he stayed on a little too long. And so when I came back in as CEO in February of 24, they made the decision about six weeks later that they needed to shut the business down, that they couldn't fund it because it was no longer profitable. And I think, honestly, they could see what I couldn't yet see. I was still too emotionally wrapped up in it. And I think they realized, like, this isn't going to work. So we went into foreclosure because we were immediately in breach of our debt covenants. And I didn't even know what debt covenants really were. But for someone listening that doesn't know much about this, because I didn't. It's like, if you're not paying your mortgage, the bank immediately assumes the property, and that's what happened. And so it went into foreclosure. The banks owned the asset. We went back and forth for a couple of weeks trying to salvage things. We didn't have an actual viable deal at the table. And a pretty amazing thing happened. And there was a man in Boston who worked for bank of America. They controlled the syndicated debt on the business. And he and I developed a relationship a little bit over the previous few weeks. And he called my lawyer and he said, listen, we're going to lose our shirts, we're going to lose our money no matter what. But she's a pretty exceptional founder and what she did for the industry and the world is pretty amazing. And we want her to have her business back if she wants it. So if she wants to buy it from us, we'll sell it to her for, you know, a very small amount of money, which was actually kind of an extraordinary act by a bank.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah, that's not a normal thing.
- [30:50]
A
No. And I really, I owe a debt of gratitude to bank of America and JPMorgan and others that actually let go of their debt and let me have the opportunity. So they called me. I was on spring break. My daughter Georgie, who, you know, was, you know, and all my kids. I mean, it makes me emotional talking about it now, but they were really, really sad. They were like, you just can't let this die. She was holding our vitamin C serum, which has always been our top selling product. And she said, mom, I just, just, you've worked so hard. We've sacrificed so much, like, just don't let it die. And my son, a couple weeks prior had been trying to post about it on Instagram and sell perfumed his friends. Moms like he, they tried so hard to hold onto what we had. And so in that moment when I had that opportunity, you know, it was like a Sunday night. I was in Miami on spring break, about to fly back to LA in the morning and we kind of had a family conversation and. And I turned to Mark, who was really pretty fiscally responsible and conservative, and I just said, what should I do? And we made the crazy ass decision to buy the company out of foreclosure within 48 hours. And a bunch of my. We sold a bunch of our savings and we coughed up a bunch of cash. A couple of my old investors wired in money with no paperwork and just said, all right, Greg, we're going to back you again. And we did it and we bought it. That was Sunday night. And Thursday morning we were going to liquidate. So we had about two days to get it done. Oh my God. It's sort of surreal.
- [32:13]
B
Like that all happened in two days.
- [32:15]
A
Yep. I mean, it was crazy.
- [32:17]
B
So the choice just for people who don't know, like you made A pile of money. Like, you didn't have to do this. You could have sailed off and just either started a new company or not done anything essentially, for the rest of your life, just enjoy your life. Instead, you decide that you're gonna go back in and try to untie this incredibly intricate knot and figure this whole thing out, which is just inviting all kinds of difficulty into your life unnecessarily.
- [32:51]
A
Yes, yes. And it was hard because first I bought it, then there were all these legal situations going on and I had to make the like. The probably the hardest.
- [33:06]
Thing I've ever been through in my career was that once I bought the business.
- [33:13]
I had to fire all of the people that worked for the company, minus a few, because there was no cash left. And while we had raised a little bit of capital, we had to pay something for the business and then we had to figure out how to operate something. And that for which I received so much negative backlash. Like, here's this person who says they empower women and care about people and she's firing everyone without any severance. And I think one of the things that's been hardest, and I've become immune to the, let's call it constructive feedback on me is that I can sleep at night knowing the truth. And what people often don't understand is the complexity of what's happening behind the scenes in a business. And so some of the choices that seem either ruthless or tone deaf or really harsh, they're not necessarily decisions, they just are what they are.
- [34:07]
And when you don't have any cash, you don't have any cash. So I invited that and I took a lot of public, a lot of scathing from people publicly, both the women that had represented the brand as well as some of the corporate employees, that was really painful. I was getting really, really nasty messages, like, you're the most horrib. I hope your kids must be horrified by who you are. And I just had to somehow breathe through it and just say, I know my truth and I know that I didn't do this to people, but I understand why they're angry and I did understand why they were angry. But once I bought the business, I really literally had a full blown anxiety attack. I was petrified and I was petrified probably because I realized I had to shut it down. I had to shut the whole thing down in order for it to live to see another day. Because it was an untenable situation. We didn't have the capital to fund the business on a go forward basis. I think I was naive in the moments that I purchased it, thinking that maybe I could. But the minute I looked at the dollars, I was like, there's literally we would have had to go raise like $100 million. We just didn't have the money. We didn't have close to the money.
- [35:10]
B
So when you entered into this, you were thinking, I'm gonna breathe life back into this. I'm gonna resuscitate it. We're gonna get it one step at a time, back on its feet. And then you realize the complexity of the situation and the endless.
- [35:27]
Series of nearly impossible problems to solve. Was there ever a moment where you thought this was a terrible decision? I should have never gone back into this 100%.
- [35:38]
A
I mean, multiple times I felt that way. I thought that. So I remember. I mean, I remember that so distinctly. So I bought the business and it was sitting in my house office. And I remember Lindsey Dahl, who had been the head of Mission with Beauty Counter and is still an ally and a close friend. She now runs Social Impact at Ritual. But she came over and she's like, we're gonna do this. And I just had a full blown sobbing, like, hysterical meltdown. Like, what? I was so scared because I just realized, like the enormity of what I had taken on and the financial implications of the decision. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is gonna, you know, is this gonna bankrupt my family? What have I done to my marriage? Like, am I crazy? And she just sort of like talked me off the ledge that day. And she was just like, we gotta take this one step at a time, Greg. You gotta think through this. And I think that it was that conversation that led me over the next couple days to realizing that the best path forward was to let the business go. Which was not an easy decision for all the obvious reasons. I had a bad breakup in college. I was super in love with my boyfriend and it was like, just heart wrenching. And I remember my friends were like, we've listened to you go on and on about this guy. Like, you gotta go talk to a therapist. Like, you can't, we can't help you anymore. And I went to talk to his therapist and I was, you know, crying, whatever. I mean, this is like, you know, 1989 or something. And I was like, but I love him and whatever. And he said, I remember him saying, if you want any chance of that relationship starting again, you need to let it completely die. He's like, don't talk to him, don't look with him. Definitely don't have sex with him. Like, let it die. And if you let it die, there's a chance that it can be reborn. And I know it seems so silly, but in my mind, I was thinking about that if I let this go and deal with all the consequences of that decision, we might just have a chance of let it be born again and be born in a better way. And so that's what I did. I shut it down on May 1st of 2024.
- [37:33]
B
I remember when you. I don't know if it was like an Instagram post or something like that, where you were just like, it's shutting down. We'll let you. When it's coming back. Like, we're not. You know, we're not. Basically, we're not making any promises, you know, which is just like, such a. You know, what a. What a difficult decision to make. And then to kind of own it and then publicly share it, like, this is where we're at, you know, is a heavy deal. And I remember thinking, how do you get through the day? Like, how do you. Whether it's what was happening with Carlisle or then this new situation that you find yourself in, like, how are you managing the stress and the pressure of shouldering that much responsibility?
- [38:14]
A
Well, first of all, I'm an absolutely no bullshit, transparent person.
- [38:20]
And even now, even talking about it, even on a podcast, even public, I'm okay with being emotional and admitting it was super hard and super emotional and scary, all those things. I think that. But when you put that out to the world, the world kind of finds you and people surround themselves and help. I had so many people that just said, we're gonna get through this. Whether it was Lindsay or Justin Stoltzfus, who had been my partner for years, or Christy Coleman, or all these people that have been with me, there were people, obviously Mark, my husband, they were like, we've got this. You've got this, Greg. You can do this. And I think that what I did give myself permission to do, because I did keep a small crew of people, and I remember them being kind of like, as they should be. Like, I'm the CEO. What's the plan? And I finally had to say, like, I don't know. I don't have a plan right now. So I'm gonna take the next three months. This summer, I'm gonna keep a small group of you. I'm gonna pay you. I can't promise you much beyond that, but I can pay you for the next couple months. If you wanna stick with me. I'd love it. If you don't, I totally understand. I'll help you find another job. But I need to take a moment to breathe and to figure out what the hell I'm gonna do, because I didn't go into this with the intention of buying it and shutting it down. And I literally had no idea what I was doing, doing. And so last summer, the summer of 2024 or a year ago, I just spent a lot of time reading and thinking and having conversations with people and trying to figure out, okay, where is the white space? How do we lead again? How do we go on, go back in on offense? And I was like, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment? What would you know, some of these great leaders that have come before me? What would they have done if they'd been afforded this opportunity? And can I look at this as a gift? And can I give myself the space to really think? And I just tried to take it, like, one day at a time. And like you, Rich, I also became very disciplined in my body, like my health, like, I was like, very focused on what I was eating, what I was drinking, my exercise, like, trying to like, meditate whenever I could, taking long baths, going for long walks, like, listening to music, like, just giving myself space.
- [40:30]
B
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- [43:08]
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- [44:22]
Amidst all of this, where is your sense of self or your relationship or your attachment to your identity as a CEO and a successful business person? Because this is being challenged publicly along the way, right? And I suspect that the ego is not very happy with that.
- [44:43]
A
So I think when I was asked to leave PD Kenner under this previous CEO's leadership, I think that was the time that I went to a really dark place where I remember walking into rooms. There's a group of about 50 women that I go away with every year, really accomplished group of women of all different backgrounds and professions. I remember going to Utah in the spring of 2022 or maybe the spring of 23, and I felt like I no longer belong. I remember someone giving me a hug.
- [45:16]
And. And she kind of looked over my shoulder at the time and it killed my entire weekend because I was like, I'm not meant to be here anymore because you're here.
- [45:26]
B
You know, nobody's saying anything, but, you know, you're on the outside.
- [45:28]
A
Yeah, I'm on the outside. In my head, in their head, they were rallying around me like, you're still the woman that started Clean Beauty and led this business and sold it for a billion dollars and economically empowered hundreds of thousands of women. They are looking at me, but in my own mind, I. I'm like, who am I without beauty counter? Who am I not as a CEO or this well respected entrepreneur? And I had a lot of. I'd spent a lot of time doing energy work, healing work, talking to psychics and mediums, going to therapy, like reading books. And I remember reading is it David Brooks is David Brooks is the second act or whatever. And I really respect him. But I was like, well, shit, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. Why are you talking about? Kind of be put out to pasture and I can help others, but I can't do something now. I'm past my prime. And so, I don't know, I did a lot of that, a lot of soul searching, you know.
- [46:17]
B
Was there any one book or insight that was helpful?
- [46:22]
A
Well, in some ways his book was helpful to me. Cause I kind of rebelled against it. And I think that. I think that, yeah, it did. It sort of like lit a fire under my ass. But I also just found that I'm not good at sitting around. I remember my kids coming home and they're like, are you like in your. First of all, you don't even wear sweatpants. You're in sweatpants, like on the sofa watching Netflix at 4 o'. Clock. Like, what Mom? Like, what are you doing? And so what I started to think about is, okay, what do I care about in life? And what I care about is women and helping them, powering them up. Not in any way to the detriment of men, but. And I really do care about health and life and love and like being with people and helping them live better lives. And so I started trying to focus on like, okay, well, how do I take the things I care about and the experience I have and how do I start thinking about what I might be able to do that has impact in the world? And that even though I didn't have a perfect plan, it got my brain thinking again. And I started to ideate again in those dark moments. But I had some dark moments. And honestly, it probably wasn't until the summer of 23 when Mark said to me, like, you have to stop. Like, you have to let go of your anger, Greg. Like, this is not. It is neither becoming. Like, it's just. It doesn't make you look good, but also, like, you're sending us all over the edge. Like, you gotta let this all go. Like, you gotta make a decision now. Are you gonna be angry for the rest of your life, or are you gonna let it go and move on? And at that point, I did decide to let it go. And now I'm actually like, I have no anger. It's crazy when you. And you know this, and we all know this, but when you actually decide to let something go and actually let it go, you can forgive everything and everyone and take responsibility for your own actions and feel fine. It just took a long time.
- [48:03]
B
And what was the moment of clarity when you realized that the solution to this problem lied in kind of launching something new rather than just trying to resuscitate the brand that you had built?
- [48:20]
A
I mean, again, I definitely read a lot about what Steve Jobs did. I had read his book. I'd gone back and reread Shoe Dog and looked at what would Yvon Chouinard be doing right now? What would Bob Iger be doing right now? You know, other leaders that had led before talked to a lot of powerful women in my life that had done things. And I don't think there was like, one exact moment or whatever, but I think that I realized that the world had changed dramatically since I concepted Beauty counter in late 2010, 2011, and I was here to serve the needs of today's consumer. So that led me sort of in a direction of thinking. Like, it has to be, like, coming out as, like, limping out as Beauty Counter 2.0 wasn't going to be good enough. Like, how do. What would a leader do? A leader would reimagine things for today and take the best of what was and build on that, but also be unapologetic about the fact that things need to feel different and look different. And I wanted to give the brand. I wanted the company to be a new company, reimagined based on some of the core Tenets of the past. And so I just, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that would be, what was going to be the same and what was going to be different. And knowing honestly that through all of this I'm different. So therefore the business will be different and has to be different. I think that was really important for me to recognize in myself and then know that through all these conversations and readings that in order to be successful, you have to go on offense. And you go on offense not limping out of the gate, if that makes sense.
- [49:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I get it. Part of that is drop the beauty. Just counter.
- [50:03]
A
Yeah, that was important to me. I mean, you know, I never really truly loved the name Beauty Counter. You know, one of the reasons that I named well Beauty Counter was the intended double entendre of going couch to the industry. It was also just a name we could get. I mean, you know, you like, can get sometimes, like everything's owned by someone. But it was really about reimagining what what beauty meant and the experience of beauty. But it was also an incredibly limiting name because it was, first of all, you put the name Beauty in front of men, and more times than not.
- [50:36]
B
You'Re never gonna sell anything to men.
- [50:37]
A
No. And second of all, the counter was the essence of what we were doing and who we were.
- [50:42]
B
But when you say beauty counter, you just think of a countertop. You're not getting that double entendre that you're trying to counter something generally.
- [50:50]
A
And that for me, it's always been about going against the grain. Like, it's kind of who I am. People really love me. Or they just like, there are a lot of people who love me. There are a lot of people that don't because I am extremely direct. I'm in your face. And so for me, the first time I started the company, it was going counter to the industry norms of putting toxic chemicals into products and kind of hiding under a bunch of beauty secrets, which still happens, and lying to the consumer about whether or not this was natural or aloe based or whatever bullshit was out there. And I wanted to go up against the industry and prove that there was a better way forward. And I wanted to change the laws so that we were protecting the health and safety of people. This time around, I was like, okay, we did a good job. And a lot of people joined us and followed our lead and copied us and whatever. And now the word clean out there means absolutely nothing to the consumer once again because we've watered it down. So to me, to go counter to it meant that not only did I have to reimagine the business model, but also we needed to go counter to what all the large box retailers have done, which is creating all bunch of different standards of clean. And I feel like now I have an opportunity to, to set a new standard to say this is actually what clean means. And it's not just taking five ingredients out and calling it a day, that's not actually a clean product.
- [52:05]
B
Greenwashing has become clean. Washing 100% in the consumer product space basically is what you're saying, 100%.
- [52:12]
A
And at the end of the day clean is still worth fighting for. And you asked me earlier like why, why would you do it? Because I want people to live healthy lives. And I know for a fact that there are certain chemicals that wreak havoc on our endocrine systems or create neurotoxicity or reproductive toxicity. I think, I don't know the exact statistic but it's like 40% of male sperm is now defective. I mean this is a no bullshit problem. And yet the industry, and it's less now about the big conglomerates and the brands, it's more about the retailers, they're creating their own standards in a very self serving way because they're capitalists and I get that.
- [52:49]
B
Oh, I didn't know that. So the retailers are putting their own veneer of like quote unquote clean on top, whatever these products are.
- [52:57]
A
And it's completely inconsistent. So what you see at let's just say a department store vs Target vs Walmart vs Sephora vs Ulta vs you name the brand credo, whatever it is, all these retailers are defining clean in a completely different way. And so as a consumer.
- [53:15]
What does that mean for me? And again because of lack of regulation on the federal side, you can still clean clean and doesn't have to be clean, you know, it's a problem.
- [53:26]
B
So last time you were here, way back when, I mean most of what we talked about was this, you know, what do we need to understand in terms of the toxicity of beauty products, consumer products even more broadly, what is the current state of the regulatory and legislative landscape with respect to protecting consumers from these things. And we talked a lot about, you know, I mean, how many times have you gone to the Hill and testified like this is like your thing, right? This is the engine behind or was the engine behind beauty counter and still remains to be. You're kind of like defining mission in regard to all of this. And now with counter that obviously remains Consistent. But I'm curious around what that legislative regulatory landscape looks like now compared to that.
- [54:19]
A
Well, I mean, the difference between 2019 and 2025 is I think that. So when we were able to help pass Mocra, which is the modernization of the Cosmetics Regulation act, which went through a couple years ago, and that was the first time a major federal law had been updated since 1938. And I'm proud that we helped in the passing of that. And it allowed for things like the FDA could recall a product when it was known to cause harm to health. Fast forward to where we are today. You still have bipartisan support for cosmetic reform. And when I say cosmetic, and I've said this before, it could be sunscreen, bubble bath, shade, cream, or lipstick. It's all of the above. What is challenging today right now, as you can imagine, is that everything's, you know, we're always at the standstill because people can't get along on any issue. This is an issue that I was really proud of, the fact that when I ran Beauty Counter, we had people on the far right and the far left and everything in between, and they could agree that this was an important issue and that we needed to take action. Today, when I look at, like, opportunities for advocacy within the political arena, so to speak, you're looking at things like the fragrance loophole, which is still protected under international IP law. That's a big problem because so many of the most offensive chemicals are found in fragrance, because it's those phthalates that so closely mimic your endocrine system that they. But they're the ones that bind that scent to your skin. And we know that fragrance is having a huge moment right now, now. So there are opportunities in small ways to go after specific things that I think would help protect the health and safety people. There are members of Congress that are still trying to put forth bills on toxic free cosmetics, and we will continue to support that. But at this particular moment in time, when I think about our advocacy efforts at Counter, I don't want to just focus on Washington and, or the state level. I also want to look at business and commerce and the business world and go after from that standpoint too, in that how do we create a standard for clean that everyone can understand and live by so that brands know what they're performing against and consumers know. And that will come down to creating a coalition and not just with us, but getting a group of important companies together to say, let's set a standard that we can all agree protects the health and safety of people that when they're out there shopping the market, they can navigate it. I think there's an interesting opportunity to advocate on the business side of things, not just on the legislative side.
- [56:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it seems like. Well, first of all, it is an interesting moment right now, certainly, you know, toxicity in our food and in our water. And there's never been more awareness and.
- [57:09]
Care, I think, from the average consumer about these things. Like, there is a level of consciousness around this that didn't exist, you know, five years ago. And I would have to say that in no small part, like the whole Maha movement has contributed to that, because this is kind of what it's all about. Right. Unfortunately, it's paired with, and coupled with an administration that is really just about deregulation. So these things are working at cross purposes with each other. You can't say we're going to get toxins out of our food and all these things while you're basically doing everything you can to make sure that large corporations can operate unencumbered like these. They're not compatible.
- [57:49]
So the solution then, to your point, is. Well, we need consumer pressure and we need coalitional support within the industry to set these standards for ourselves. But this is also happening at a moment where there has never been this much institutional distrust. And I think there is consumer fatigue when it comes to these certifications and labels. Like, what do these things even mean anymore? It's like, oh, this is free range or whatever. It's like. It's like these things don't mean anything anymore. They all get sort of corrupted. And I think the average consumer experience is like, do I even really. What does this mean? Can I really trust this?
- [58:30]
A
Or they just give up? Yeah, I mean, I. Even in my own life and certain things I was like, things that I was so, like, hyper about before, I'm kind of like.
- [58:39]
It can be frustrating. It's like I was talking about this, about recycling, and then you look at, like, what percentage of things that you've recycled actually getting it.
- [58:46]
B
Is this really doing anything?
- [58:48]
A
Yeah, I think that. I do think that one of the opportunities I saw in the old company that I see encountered today is that if you can demonstrate that you can build a financially viable and successful corporate entity that is also doing good work in the world, you can actually garner the respect and get the attention of some of these other companies.
- [59:11]
B
Well, it puts market pressure on all these other companies.
- [59:13]
A
And I think that some of these other companies, you know, there are. There are, I think one of the problems the challenges that we face as a nation in general, and certainly with respect to this issue about whether it's on the food side of things or personal care side of things, whatever it might be, is there's still a significant level of ignorance. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but people still don't really understand what's going on out there. And so how do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear mongering, without scaring them to death? And how do you show financial and business success in a way that people that you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning the consumers voting with their dollars and they're actually growing at a faster clip than we are, maybe we should actually make some adjustments and rather than shaming the companies that aren't doing the right thing, just show them a better path forward. And I have found in my own experience of the last 15 years that most people, and most companies, because companies are built on people want to do the right thing. But with the pressures of the markets, it's hard to do the right thing because when you lose points of margin in your stock price tanks, it's hard. And so it's a conundrum. I mean, it really is a challenging situation. But I do think that public advocacy, we are consumers. Consumers have a voice and they need to use that voice. And they have to remember that when they vote in elections. Yeah, that's one way of voting. But you vote with your. Why? Every single time you purchase something in your life.
- [60:43]
B
On the subject of.
- [60:46]
Consumer lack of awareness or ignorance about these things, what is it that you want the consumer to know?
- [60:55]
A
Well, I think with respect to my industry, the beauty and personal care industry, I want people to know that beauty secrets are bullshit. It's all bullshit. I mean, just think about this. I mean, you and I are both getting older, right? I have wrinkles on my face, right? I just do. Wrinkles aren't a problem. They're just a thing that the beauty industry is telling you is a problem so they can sell you product. I mean, let's just start there. I mean, really? Yeah, there's like a wrinkle is just part of the aging process. And every single person in the world will get a wrinkle at some point. And it is not a process, it is just part of life. The entire industry of like building things like, oh, if you, you know, use this, you're going to have the fountain of youth. I mean, it's all bullshit. So I think that, that you know, one, I want people to understand that like there's no cream that's gonna get rid of your wrinkles. They might improve the moisture in your skin. You might feel a little bit more radiant, that that stuff is true. But nothing's gonna change things. That's one thing. Two, don't be, don't believe what you see on the label. Like you've gotta do your research. You may not choose to wanna do the work and that's fair. But if someone says it's all natural or clean or aloe based or you know, it's got made with pomegranate seed.
- [62:07]
B
Or whatever, like there's always, it's just ins.
- [62:11]
These things get like, oh, infused with this and like special. It's like there's all kinds of crazy descriptors, you know, to make you think that there's some scientific breakthrough happening.
- [62:21]
A
Of course not. Of course. And they'll say things like preservative free. Okay, well that's, there's no way that if you buy a product and it's sitting on the shelf for a year or two without having to be refrigerated and doesn't expire in a couple weeks, like that's not preservative for you, that means that that person went in and pre preserved the raw materials, extracted them. And because of, of sort of loopholes, like they can claim that to be.
- [62:45]
B
Preserved because they weren't like the, they didn't add to preserve it was preserved before they put it in the bottle or whatever.
- [62:52]
A
Correct. It's that kind of thing that people just don't realize. And it's the same with, you know, with the food industry. And I always say like the beauty industry drafts off the food industry. So what is happening there? We're gonna get next. And so I always just say to people, if there's like one thing you can do, shop fragrance free. Because at least you know, you're removing a lot of the chemicals of concern that don't have to be listed. No matter what which brand it is. We will, we always list the ingredients, but people don't list it. But just know that, you know, what you see on the label isn't necessarily what you get. And that's okay if you're not trying to buy a clean or natural product. But if you are, you need to do your homework.
- [63:28]
B
And what are the common chemicals of concern and why are they concerning?
- [63:34]
A
You know, I think there are a whole Bunch. But a couple that you will see often on labels are, are some of the parabens, the methyl or ethylparabens. You'll see things like edta, the pegs.
- [63:48]
Obviously formaldehyde, but it never shows up as formaldehyde on the label. But those things, and they are, you know, I talked earlier about phthalates and I think that anything that mimics your endocrine system and disrupts it can be really harmful in terms of your reproductive health or, you know, your neurological health. So I think that what I always say to people is like, look, I'm never, I'm not a scientist and I don't know, I don't have all the answers or understand half of these chemicals, most of these chemicals. But what you should know first and foremost is that many, many tens of thousands of chemicals have been introduced into commerce in everything from electronics to food to be, and less than 10% of them have ever been tested for safety on human health. And so you're dealing with the wild, wild west. And so when you're making decisions about things you're putting in your body and on your body, just err on the side of being cautious. Like you'll put a seatbelt on when you get in a car, but you'll just put anything, any lotion or potion all over your body. And your skin's your largest organ. So if you're thinking about your longevity and your long term health, know that while it may not react in that moment, you might not see a huge rash breakout, it may have a long term impact. And we may not know that. And maybe that one ingredient's okay in isolation, but how many products are you putting on your body every day when you brush your teeth and you shave and you put deodorant on and sunscreen and makeup and how do those chemicals interact with one another, with your body?
- [65:08]
B
Yeah. There's an interesting irony in that amidst all of this institutional distrust that's occurring right now, we have almost a reflexive unconscious trust when it comes to all of these products. Assuming that smart people at the company have tested all of these things and that the FDA is overseeing all of this and it wouldn't be on the shelf and available to buy unless. Unless it has been vetted and tested and approved for human health and safety.
- [65:41]
A
Yeah. It actually surprises me, even with my own friends when, I mean, sometimes they'll say something, they're like, this is clean. I'm like, have you been listening to me for the last 10 years? Like, are you kidding me? This is not clean. This is not even remotely clean. But somehow you think it is because it has like a leaf on the packaging or something and you think it's like this thing. I think that.
- [66:01]
B
But the burden of proof, like the presumption is up. It has to be proven harmful. It's assumed safe until proven harmful rather than having to be proven safe prior to being able to be available as a commercial product.
- [66:16]
A
That is true. And I think that with Counter, one of the reasons that we made the decision to go back into a business model that incorporated community based commerce and created a platform upon which women can, you know, represent the brand as brand partners and sell products should they so desire. One of the reasons I did that is because I think we believe friends, we listen to our trusted friends. And I think that if you arm an army of women with information, small bouts of information, they don't need to have their doctorate and you know, whatever, but just if you know a little bit and you can help people make more informed choices, we tend to trust one another. And all these, like all these influencers are going to against clean and science, whatever. You know, there just are some things like, you know, if you're putting formaldehyde in your body and that's what's been used to preserve frogs, like maybe it's just probably not all that good for your body and just to. And so to be a little bit mindful. And I think that we really believe in having women share our story, share this story share information to help their friends, their communities, their families make better choices. And I believe in that today as much as I did when I started Beauty. Counter is in the power. You know, I say there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care. And women care about protecting their bodies, but more importantly, they care about protecting their children, their families and their loved ones.
- [67:34]
B
Herein lies the rub for you though, as you know as a leader, because in the reimagination of this beauty brand and the launch of Counter, you're faced with the prospect of having to rebuild trust that has been eroded with these women that you know.
- [67:53]
You need, you need to be on your side. So how are you approaching that so that you can repair that relationship and restore that trust slowly?
- [68:06]
A
I'm taking my time with it. I think that you can't. I think a couple things. One, in moments like this, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to find opportunities where I can share my story honestly because you know, One of the things that the women who sold beauty counter knew about me as I would say, you might like what I'm gonna say, you might hate what I'm gonna say. You might like me, you might hate me, but you know that I'm like a no bullshit person. I'm always gonna tell you the truth, even when it's unpopular. And so I've been spending time telling my story carefully, thoughtfully understanding that it does take time to rebuild someone's trust. Some people came right back cause they understood. Others have been slower to it. Some don't trust and maybe never will because they don't understand what actually went down. And I can accept that's just part of life. And I'm not gonna sit and tell things that I'm not allowed to talk about or that just are not helpful to anyone. But I think it's also like actions speak louder than words. And so it's like I'm here. I showed up again. I showed up again as CEO having been fired from my job to support the mission, to support the women, to help them continue to build businesses. I shut that business down. Not lightly. It was a really, really difficult decision. But I brought it back because I am here in support of people and women predominantly, and I am in support of our mission. I still think it's worth fighting for. So, you know, look, it's a slow build, but I do think slowly by slowly as I talk to people and they realize I'm actually walking the walk again, that they are coming back. You know, we've had, you know, about 15,000 women join us again who do believe that there is not only an opportunity to build a business, but most importantly that we're going to walk the walk again and we're going to continue to further the efforts of the business past.
- [69:54]
B
And what are the similarities and differences in Kaunor's business model vis a vis how you're working with these women? Is it the same principle or is it.
- [70:06]
A
It's different in that we are not. We're not building teams anymore. So you are working as an individual within the community, but you're not able to build a team because we found that that's where some of the mistakes were made. Where, where you had a few people who were earning a lot of money.
- [70:23]
B
And a lot of money. MLM thing like, then they're making all this commission money based upon the people that they recruited.
- [70:30]
A
Which by the way, is how the entire corporate world works. And I do think that MLMs get a really bad rap unnecessarily part of the problem with the MLM business. And there are some really bad offenders out there right now who shall remain nameless, although I should name them, but they over promise and under deliver. They say to you, oh Rich, if you give me $1,000, I'm you going to show you how to make 10. And that's what went wrong with that industry. But the reality situation is it's mostly a group of pretty amazing young, not young women, all women who believe in the product and they're trying to earn an income. We look down on them for building teams. And yet that's exactly how the corporate structure works, right? The CEO is making more than the person who's in an entry level position. The CEO is working 24 by 7. The entry level position in an MLM business is probably, they're probably working one to three hours a week and it's a fun sort of side project for them. And I think that it's okay to be paid on other people's sales, in my opinion. Like, I don't have any issue with that. What I found challenging though at the end when I came back in as CEO is what I saw were that people worked really hard for a while and then there were a group of people, not all of them, but a group of people that were no longer working the business, but were enjoying the fruits of everyone else's labor. And that's not how the corporate world works. You know this like, you're paid, your bonus is paid on what you did this year, not what you did six years ago. And if you're not performing, you get 30 fired. And unfortunately I wanted a situation. We were paying so much money out to people that were no longer actively doing the business and I wanted to democratize to put more money into the hands of the person that was doing a little bit of selling rather than a lot of money into a few people's hands.
- [72:06]
B
What else is different? I mean, technology has changed quite a bit.
- [72:09]
A
So one of the main things though that is different and we're rolling this out because when we launched it was sort of a soft launch. And I've been calling this a season.
- [72:17]
B
Of learning, but when did you officially.
- [72:20]
A
Well, we turned it on on June 25th. We kind of made an announcement on October 20th that we're here and I've said to everyone, this is a season of learning, so let's learn. And we're going to iterate and iterate and iterate because we don't have it perfectly right yet. But One of the opportunities we see that I think is a huge unlock for us that will be really powerful for these women that do represent the brand is there are a million affiliate models out there. Everyone can represent any brand and get paid on it. What people valued in Beauty Counter and what they value in what we're doing today is the power of community, of being an individual that's doing something extraordinary, extraordinary through the collective voice. And I think that. So we want to build that community again because it meant a lot to people. Most people that were part of the old company, they weren't really in it for the money. They were in it for the mission, the advocacy. They were lonely sometimes. They were stay at home moms that were looking for something for themselves. So I want to build that community out in a really robust way. I also think there's an opportunity to personalize the way that they're remunerated, that not everyone joins a business for the same reason and not everyone stays in the business. And the whole world of sales, quote, unquote, is always about what you sell. And a percentage of that sales goes to you in the form of dollars. And that's one way of compensating someone. But there are a lot of other reasons why people get into businesses, and certainly with our business, maybe they just wanted to advocate in Washington, maybe they wanted to go on a trip because they never get away from their children. Maybe they want to live a healthier life and we can help them with that. There are lots of reasons and we did extensive research to see. Why did you join Beauty Counter? And what might be interesting about Counter? And it's not about the money most of the time. It's mostly about being part of something that you think is important that adds value in your life and the life of others. So how do we personalize that journey for you based on what you want, not just about money.
- [74:08]
B
I mean, I understand.
- [74:11]
What is core to you in this is how is this serving to empower women. And obviously by dint of this structure, it allows you to do that. Whereas most people don't go this route. They're just like, well, we can be a D2C company, but we're going to do our best to get into Ulta and Sephora and all these places and just be everywhere and be a ubiquitous product. This is a very specific choice to do things differently.
- [74:40]
A
I just think that brands and community are one and the same. I don't think you can build a brand today without a community. And I think when you're in. In someone else's store, you don't have control of that customer experience. You're not really learning what they love and what they don't love. When you have a community that's building a business with you, you have a direct line to not only them, but to your consumer. You understand what they want, what they love about what you're doing, what they don't love. I can take products and push them out and say, what are you guys feeling about this? And I can tell you before I've even launched which ones are going to sell and which ones won't be as successful. I can utilize that community and the power of their ability to amplify our efforts in ways that I can't when I'm sitting in a big box retail. I can have a direct dialogue with my customers in ways that I think. And yes, you can go D to C and you can build a transactional relationships. But at the end of the day, beauty and women, there's a lot of emotion in this. Like, why do you buy a Nike shoe versus an Adidas? Like, what does it mean for you and your personal brand? Does it align with your values? And I think being able to have a direct relationship through community and while powering up women simultaneously like that, that's what gets me excited. And I haven't figured it all out yet. Rich, when we have our next conversation in five years, I'll tell you what I figured out. But I do know that people want a personalized experience, both as customers and as sellers. People do want to emotionally connect to the brands that they support. And everyone wants to be part of something that's bigger than they are as individuals. And I think we can give them that through kenner by going against what's the status quo and giving them opportunities to succeed in their own way.
- [76:10]
B
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- [77:16]
In business. What are some of the other leadership and business lessons that you've learned by going through all of this?
- [77:25]
A
I mean, I've learned so many things.
- [77:30]
I think that I have learned to become less emotional. Emotional, which is not easy because I'm a very passionate person. And what I mean by that is I don't think I handle myself particularly well at the end either.
- [77:44]
After we sold the company and they decided to bring in a new CEO and all those things. Like, I'm not really proud of how I handle myself. And I've watched other founders and friends go through it where they're extremely angry and emotional. I don't think it serves you or the business well. So I think I now lead from a less. A little bit more of an emotionally detached state. I don't know if that's the right wording, and I don't mean that in. But I just. I'm not. I've depersonalized it a little bit and realized that there is. That these are just the facts. Like, I can put all the color behind what went around. I could just say they bought my business for a billion dollars. They made the decision to hire a different CEO, that CEO didn't want to work with me, and I lost my job. And unfortunately, the business went out of business. Like those. Those are the facts. I can give you all the color around it, but those are my emotions, and those don't necessarily change the facts. And so I'm trying to lead from a place of being calmer, more rational, and a little distance from decisions. It actually makes me a better CEO when I'm not so caught up in it emotionally. So I think that's really important. I also think that being really open and honest, vulnerable and transparent, and people talk about this a lot, but I don't think there are a lot of women that actually are comfortable doing that. And I think that I need to acknowledge that I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that's with me right now. And so owning that and showing them when I'm scared and showing them that I appreciate them. And when I say them, I mean whether it's a manufacturing partner, whether it's established who created all our packaging and went on a limb, having Sam there and I have worked together for years, and having him Reimagine the brand in a year, whether it's all of the associates who asked if they could come back and work for me again. That's like, the greatest compliment of my life. And. Or all the women that decided to represent the brand and the customers that have been through hell with us. I mean, I say to our team all the time, like, don't underestimate what our actual customers have been through with us, too. They fell in love with our brand. They fell in love with their vitamin C serum or their sunscreen or whatever, their body wash. And then it went away. And we let them down. Not intentionally, but we let them down. We need to earn their trust back, and we need to let them know that we're grateful. For what? The fact that they're still here supporting us. So I've learned a lot about gratitude and learned a lot about leading from a place of gratitude and respect. And not again, it goes back to the arrogance thing. Like, if you're a brand and you're trying to dictate to your customer and you think you know everything, you're just in the wrong business, because the only business you're ever in is in the business of people. And I have learned a lot about myself, and I hope I'm a better leader of people today than I was before.
- [80:10]
B
You have this letter on the new website where you kind of address this, you know, and it's a very. You know, it's. There's a lot of humility in that. And the humility is coming across as the counterpoint to the arrogance that was very much at the core of what derailed the whole previous enterprise. What was it like when you had to pick up the phone and call some of these old vendors or people that were owed, like, vendors that were owed money or your manufacturing partners? And there's so many moving pieces in this thing to, like, get it reassembled and functional. Must have been.
- [80:49]
A
I mean, there were literally thousands. Thousands of people that had been, you know, were owed from the old company. Well, it was a kind of a. It was a pretty consistent conversation, I'd say. Okay, well, we're kind of in a shitty situation. Not of my doing, nor of yours. And I'm going to ask you to. To take a chance on me a second time. And what I can commit to you is I'm going to do everything in my power to make this a success for you. Neither of us is going to get what we want out of this right now. I'm going to have to give you more Money than I'm wanting to or capable of. And you're going to have to let go of money that you're owed. And there's nothing I can do about that. But if you want to play ball with me right now, let's play ball. And what I can promise you is I'm going to work with less people and I'm going to make sure that I'm important to them and that they're important to us and that we treat them with the respect that they deserve. And. And so we really sort of honed in on the list and brought in. We got. I don't want to say got rid of. We decided not to move forward with a certain group of people. And those that we're working with, we're working with closely, and I want them to be publicly acknowledged for it. I want people to understand. And again, the whole industry is built on secrets like, you never know. No one will ever talk about where they make their products or whatever. It's okay to say thank you to Elevation Labs. That makes a lot of our products, that they took that chance and wrote that, or some of the other partners. You know, I mean, it's been, you know, paclab. I mean, there are all these companies that worked with us. So I think those conversations were hard. The conversations with the people side of it, especially the women that represented us, that understood that I just made money and sailed off into the sunset, because that's kind of the story that was told. Those conversations were harder because they're personal. When someone is no longer able to afford private school or back to school shopping comfortably, or they lost what they felt was their identity, those. Those things hurt. Those are hard conversations. They're still hard conversations. But I try to be really honest. I had a woman wrote me a letter. I'd invited her to event that I was doing in Nashville. And she said, how dare you write this letter when my best friend represented your brand for years and died of cancer. And your business, you just let this business go out of business and now you're back here and you want me to come to your event.
- [82:59]
And I wrote her a letter back. And I just said, first of all, I'm so incredibly sorry for your loss. And I actually am sorry that you lost your friend, and I am so appreciative of her efforts. And let me just tell you what really happened. And if you don't want to come, I so understand that. I respect that decision. I just want you to know I'm really, really sorry. And a couple months later she wrote me a letter back and she said, I'm so sorry I was so horrible to you. I'm just so sad about the loss of my friend. And I think sometimes when you just have those honest conversations, people say like, you're human, I'm a human. Like this is a really bad situation.
- [83:29]
B
And.
- [83:31]
A
I think some people can find forgiveness and support.
- [83:34]
B
As of right now, what are the big challenges that you're facing? What's top of mind in terms of the hurdles that you have to overcome to get this thing rolling?
- [83:46]
A
I think first and foremost there are a million beauty brands out there. When we started Beauty Counter and started the clean beauty movement, there were no other brands in there. There are a lot of brands that are claiming to be clean and everyone just thinks, oh well, they're just as good as you are. Because I'm not going to sit there and tell you my clean is cleaner. And then your clean. You don't build a brand on defense. Even though I know we're going to links that 98% of the brands are not going to, that's hard because there's just a lot out there against whom we're competing. Even though I think we're in a completely different place. Again, that goes back to retailers putting you side by side with a brand that puts clean on their label but isn't clean. There's that challenge. How do we create a leadership opportunity for ourselves and how do we create that value proposition for our customer? So that's been challenging. I think that I'm behind when it comes to AI and understanding the implications of AI for my business and also as a company rooted in sustainability, what are those decisions? And so what do you do there? That's a real conundrum, right, because we all know that AI is sucking everything out of the earth, so to speak, but also it's where everyone's going and so trying to figure that out. And I think the other challenge is trying to win the hearts back of women who represented us before and or customers who felt disenchanted by where things went and don't necessarily understand all the facts and at some point you give up. But I've been trying to find opportunities to tell my story and it's just, it's been a slower build than I thought it would be. Of course I thought I'd just turn it on, it would be easy. And you know, I have to remind myself that we are a startup again and that you're constantly being presented with challenges and not to give up, but just to say, okay, it is what it is. They dropped our holiday packaging into the water. Okay, what's plan B? And just not reacting.
- [85:30]
B
The trust piece, that's just, you know, that just goes back to your therapy session about the boyfriend. Like, you can't expect to ever earn that trust back. The only way that you will is by making peace with the fact that it may be irreparable. Right. Like, rather than trying to, you know, chase it, you just have to earn it over a very long period of time.
- [85:50]
A
If I'm being completely honest, it's still hard.
- [85:55]
That there are people that hate me or angry with me about things that I didn't actually do, and I have to just live with that. That's just partly when you're in the public eye, that people aren't gonna align with your values or the decisions were made, even if they don't have the context and don't necessarily understand that. I respect that. It's just. It's still something that I've learned to be at peace with it, but it's not easy. Still. I'm a sensitive person in terms of winning the hearts back of our customers or people that represented the brand in the past. I absolutely told them when I shut the business down that if they needed to really earn money, that they needed to move on. And I respect that. And some of them have come back and some haven't. But I'm not going to chase after something that is no longer. I am going to move forward and just to do my best. Look, it's not a guarantee. Like, when we first launched the business. Everyone's like, congrats, you did it. I'm like, no, we didn't do it. We turned it on. Doing it is now doing this this year and next year, in the forthcoming years, and getting it right all over again. And you asked a second ago, like, what are some of my challeng. I mean, I don't have all the answers, Rich. It's not. Business is challenging, and I don't know exactly what I'm doing at all the times, all the time. So we'll see.
- [87:04]
B
I mean, how refreshing to hear that.
- [87:06]
A
I just don't. I don't like when someone's like, what's the plan? What's your vision? I'm like, I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. Is that okay?
- [87:12]
B
Having played the game of business at such a high level, where the amounts of money that are kind of being transacted are in insane, what do people not understand about what that's like, there's so many founders or aspiring entrepreneurs who just dream of the day when Mr. Monopoly comes around and wants to buy their company. I'm interested in a little dose of reality, of what that entails to give people a sense of that all may not be as it seems.
- [87:49]
A
It's kind of like getting married. You know, you look really pretty in.
- [87:54]
B
That white dress and happily ever after.
- [87:56]
A
You'Re the same person. Then you got a whole life ahead with like all that comes with it.
- [87:59]
B
Is not just the person, it's the family.
- [88:01]
A
Yeah, exactly. So I think that. Well, I think first and foremost, I think that anyone that is. And I was this naive and others, and I've been this naive more than once, so I'm not this naive anymore. But if you think you're gonna sell the controlling interested in your company and you want out because you want the cash, need the cash, are exhausted, just want to move on, then you should sell your company. If you think you're going to sell the controlling interests of your company, you might make some money and you're going to run it your way and that you're going to be in charge anymore, you're not. I think that is one of the things, because I think that people do fall in love with founders. Founders are intoxicating. They're visionaries, they're passionate, they're exciting, they're sexy in a lot of ways. But if someone's gonna pay a huge amount of money for anyone's company, whatever industry it's in, they're gonna expect, they're gonna do things their way because they're there to protect their investment. And there's a misalignment there oftentimes. And so I think that people entering into any.
- [88:58]
Financial, actually any financial sponsorship, even if it's in an early stage, like you are letting go of a certain amount of control. And so read the fine print, know what you're signing up for, and really be honest with yourself about what you're wanting to get out of it. If cash is what you're trying to get out of it, or to see your name on a billboard that you sold your business for a gazillion dollars, that ticker tape on the stock exchange, that's fine. But just know that that's what you're getting. Not I'm going to get that and I'm going to still completely control my business. It's not going to happen. Even people that are in control of their publicly traded companies are not in control in a lot of ways because you're always answering to someone. And I think that people forget that oftentimes. So I always say when you're raising capital or you're selling or whatever, do your own due diligence. Go talk to people that have worked with these people before. Find out what happened when the shit hit the fan. Go know that there's more money to be deployed than there are great leaders and great ideas. So make sure you're not just going to the first person or the highest bidder. That may not bode so well for you. Maybe you take a little less money, maybe it's a lower valuation, but you have more autonomy and more control of the board or the decisions. Those things actually matter more in some ways than that. And I think people get very caught up in numbers. But I always say you could be worth 10 billion on paper, but until that thing has cleared your bank account, you're worth zero.
- [90:16]
B
It's also interesting how revenue and growth takes priority over profitability.
- [90:24]
A
Not today.
- [90:24]
B
If you want to. Yeah, if you want to grow and celebrating these huge raises where what you're really doing is you're giving away your company, are you sure you want to celebrate that? Because every time you do that, you're relinquishing some degree of control over this thing that you built. And I know that with counter, like being a little bit more grounded, a little bit more mom and pop.
- [90:49]
And kind of elementary economics around profitability is perhaps a lesson from what you experienced. You went all to the way, way to the top. And you're like, this time let's just like be profitable. It gives us optionality. We can make decisions. We don't have to rush into things because we're not chasing as long as we're profitable.
- [91:08]
A
100%. 100%. That's a learning that is invaluable to me today. I think that one of the things that's really challenging for founders and CEOs of venture backed, institutionally backed businesses is that they. It's like fashion, you know, it's like one length, one. You know, you're the, like the. We're all about this style and next year we're all about that. And that's what happened in the industry. It was growth at all costs and profitability at all costs and growth at all costs. Well, you can't, you can't do it all. So for me, I'd rather build a smaller, profitable business that to your point, has optionality. Don't get caught up in the big, you know, whatever posting in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, Women's Wear Daily about. We just raised it at one $1.5 billion valuation. Just remember that that investor is expecting at least a 3x on that investment. So do you feel really confident that you can deliver to a 4.5, a 5.5, a $7.5 billion valuation? Because if you don't, for sure as hell don't sign up for the $1.5 billion. That's the thing you have to execute against that valuation. It's something that's lost on people that they want a 3 to 7x.
- [92:17]
B
Right. Well, it's all about, like, I have a unicorn. I'm a unicorn company now, right? Like, that's the goal. It's a status symbol.
- [92:24]
A
It is a status symbol. And I admit that I fell prey to that, too, because as a woman, I was like, wow. I mean, I built a business, sold it for a billion dollars. But I think that, you know, at the end of the day, the other thing that I've learned is just. And you know this, as you've enjoyed success in your career, is that the deal closes, and, yes, you get some money in the bank and you feel nothing.
- [92:43]
B
You wake up the next day and you're like. You wake up, you're the same person. Why am I the same person?
- [92:47]
A
It's like marriage. I was like, everywhere I say, like, everyone's like, oh, my God, we're gonna get married. I'm like, guess what? The guy that you were was your boyfriend a month ago. That's. Now your husband is the same. Exact guy in the same relationship is not a good thing or bad thing. It's just the fact.
- [92:59]
B
So five years from now, if this thing is successful and it's kind of growing as you anticipate it will, and those kinds of opportunities come knocking. What is the clarity? How are you thinking about that differently than you were before?
- [93:17]
A
I think that I will. Well, first of all, I will be way. You have investors, right? I do have investors, but I still have control. I think that, for me, it is about. Well, first of all, if I were to sell again or go public or whatever, I would be very clear on what exactly I'm signing up for. Well, in advance of signing any paperwork, I would really need to understand what that meant and look at all the upside, but more carefully look at all the downside. So I think that's something that's really important to me, and I think one of the things that I didn't do last time around, that I would do this time around will do is. Is succession planning. Like, if I'm gonna step out or I'm gonna sell, like, what is. Who's gonna come in and lead? Because I'm probably not the best person to serve as a head of brand in a huge large corporation. I'm probably not that person. But if I could groom someone to be my successor and then still have an affiliation with the brand or whatever and the movement or the advocacy efforts or helping women, that's an outcome that would be appealing to me. But I think that I am trying to build this time for longevity. I want to build a business that will last the length of time I wanted that last time around. Now I've learned that that isn't always the case. And so I'm taking all the little steps right now, trying to make sure that we build a brand that people can trust will be here in a year, in five years, in 25 years. So that may mean that I never sell it. Maybe it becomes profitable and we pay out dividends, or maybe we do go public someday. I don't know. But I'm going to be much more cautious.
- [94:52]
B
Not the rush to exit.
- [94:53]
A
No rush.
- [94:53]
B
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Amidst all of this, being a woman entrepreneur, you know, there's a. Adds a whole other kind of, like, layer to everything. So what is it that you've learned that is specifically applicable for the female entrepreneur out there?
- [95:11]
A
I think that we are often underestimated in general as women in many business situations, and we allow for that to become a liability, or for us to think of ourselves in some ways as a liability, when actually.
- [95:26]
You should think of it being a woman as an asset. Because we have a high level of emotional intelligence. And oftentimes, if someone's not really listening to you, you can read between the lines and come up and surprise them. And I think that, like, when I sit in a room with a bunch of men and I know that they're underestimating me, I just. I don't get offended by. I mean, some of the things that people will say to me. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. I'm. I mean, just like, I can't tell you how many men came up to me over the years and would say, oh, do you have an office? I'd say, I do. And they're like, my wife's friend, she makes this really great lip balm in her kitchen.
- [96:00]
B
Right. Like you're running an Etsy shop.
- [96:02]
A
Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with running An Etsy shop. And then I'll say things. Well, actually, like, I sold my company to a private equity firm. And they'd be like, oh, really? Like, which private equity firm? I'd say Carlisle. Oh, what was the valuation? A billion dollars. That stops them in their tracks.
- [96:15]
B
Each tick along the way looking for the reason to be dismissive about it.
- [96:19]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's just unbelievable. So is that or someone. Towards the end. Towards the end, when we built a $400 million business that was valued at a billion dollars, right before we sold the company, one of our board members said, have you guys ever thought of, like, having a dashboard where you have a certain set of KPIs and you're looking at how you're measuring against your key performance indicators, whatever, in your business? I was like, you know, no, that's such a good idea. Thank you for asking me. I never thought about looking at certain metrics and whether or not we were doing well. I mean, it's just. It's staggering the questions people ask you. But instead of getting angry about it, I would tell women, just use that to your advantage. Figure out how to make that almost like, think of yourself as an asset and dig deep and find confidence in those moments that someone else isn't telling you that you've got the chops to do it. The other thing that I did, which I will not do, and I was having this conversation, I had a meeting this morning before I came to meet with you. I remember distinctly having conversations with some of the more seasoned older men that were working in the business with me. Not that I was young at the time, people who had very established careers in their respective areas. And I remember them telling me what I was saying, couldn't be possible, or no one's ever going to buy makeup in this way, or no one's going to ever do this. And I allowed them to overrule my gut instincts. And the business would have been way more successful if I just listened to myself and had the confidence to say, rich, I hear what you're saying. I disagree with you. We're still going to move forward on the CEO. If you don't believe in me as a CEO, then there are a lot of other companies and people for whom you can work. I have that confidence today. I didn't have that 10 years ago. And I think a lot of women allow because we always look for external validation. Like, in life, you know, it's like, you put on dress, you think you look pretty, but then you walk in the door and until someone's like, I like your dress, you look pretty. You don't think that men walk in the world and they're like, I look like a million dollars. So I think there's something about having the confidence in yourself that following your gut and not letting people influence you too much. It's not that you don't listen and learn from others, but knowing when your gut is telling you to do something as the founder and CEO, then do it.
- [98:20]
B
Yeah. The big money people come in and they very confidently say, I know this worked for you. But in our experience, and we do this all the time and we know what we're doing, if you do this, then you'll be bigger. And your gut, your intuition is telling you that's a bad idea. But it's easy to see why you would defer.
- [98:39]
A
Yeah. And oftentimes you're the only woman in the room. Oh, and by the way, it might have been really successful at Nike. I mean, this is a conversation I was having with a board member in my old company. He said, well, at Nike, we did this. I said to the guy, I was like, yeah, that was like 1985. I mean, that's great that it worked at Nike in 1985. The world is completely different. Whatever Nike did in 1985 is irrelevant right now. What is happening right in this moment? And how do we serve the needs of today's consumer? And their needs are ever changing and they're moving so quickly that we can't. Yes, you can respect the past and learn from the past, but you don't apply the past today unless there's a real reason to do it.
- [99:16]
B
So then what is your metric or your non negotiables when it comes to your metaphorical board of advisors and your literal board of advisors? How are you making decisions about who you're listening to and who those people are?
- [99:31]
A
Well, I basically have said it's more of a pull than a push. So when I want your help, I'm going to call you. But I don't expect you to project your ideas on me all the time. You know, I was really clear with the investors that came into this business that I respect them. That's why they're there, I need them. And I'm also not going to play by the old school rules. Like I'm not going to put together 100 page stacks every month for you for the financial reporting. And I'm not going to do these elaborate board meetings and tell everybody what you want to hear and then change my strategy because One of the things that I was criticized of in the old company was people used to say, like, you're all over the map. And what I was trying to shield them from was what was actually going on behind the scenes from my investors and my board of telling me what to do every day. What they wanted, not what I wanted. So I appeared all over the map. But actually it was because it was like a ping pong match of what they wanted. So I think today I'm like, look, I'm gonna stick with this. If I have a problem, I'm gonna tell you in advance. If I need your help, I'm gonna call you. But please don't try to project your ideas on me 247 or try to get me to change what I'm doing because it suits your needs. I think I'm much more capable of having those conversations today. And I don't do it with disrespect. Like, they're there because they're also very successful people. But I keep saying if I. I need you on call.
- [100:43]
B
Yeah, you mentioned Steve Jobs and Bob Iger and a few other people. Who are the people out there that you look to? And you're like, that person knows what they're doing.
- [100:55]
I'm gonna kind of follow their principles or model my leadership strategy based upon their success.
- [101:03]
A
I think that.
- [101:04]
B
Who are your inspirations?
- [101:05]
A
So I think that. I mean, I know so many people say this, but, you know, when you look at what Yvon Chouinard has done with Patagonian, one of my very best friends from high school has worked there for 20 years. And I know a lot of those people. I think that, you know, when I first read his book Let yout People Go Surfing and now Dirtbag Billionaire, it's like learning from those who really stood their ground and were uncompromising in their commitment to their own personal mission or their business mission. I think that he's one that's played a part, even though I don't know him. Bob Iger is someone that I've. You know, I remember when I was going back in. He's like, are you sure you want to go back in? Like, are you crazy? He's like, it's not going to be easy. And of course, now I'm like, I should listen to you. But, but I.
- [101:46]
B
But, but, yeah, but also him. He did. Doing the same thing, you know, and.
- [101:50]
A
It'S like, should he have done that?
- [101:51]
B
I don't know.
- [101:52]
A
It's hard to know. You know, it's like, it's always Easy to look back, but I think he was really helpful with me in terms of things like make sure you're surrounded by operators, not just finance people. He's. He's been really helpful to me. I mean, I hate to say it because, I mean, in some ways she stands for everything, I don't. But I gotta give it to the Kardashians.
- [102:12]
And Jens Grady and all the guys that are building out skims and they keep doing these things. Culturally, I'm fascinated by that marketing machine and how they've been able to meet the moment.
- [102:23]
B
Being able to leverage social media to.
- [102:27]
A
Meet the moment.
- [102:30]
And being unapologetic about who they are. Again, I don't live my life in the way that they live their lives, but they've had such significant influence and it's been interesting to watch them just build these businesses and how they've gotta be some of the greatest marketers ever. I used to say Madonna was the greatest marketer ever. And you could still say that about her. She just would reinvent herself and everyone would fall in love with her again. I mean, again, that's a little bit a while ago. But people that know how to read the moment and then shift accordingly and then continue to build, I find really, really fascinating. There are a lot of people I've always respected my friend Sara Blakely and how she built Spanx, but then just how she just done it with such humility and how she reaches out into community and learns from them. There are a lot of really interesting people out there and I've been so fortunate to spend time with so many founders who inspire me every day in big ways and in little. I'll tell you else who's just been so helpful to me recently, honestly, is my kids. I mean, you want to know what's going on in the world? Talk to a 16 year old girl. Talk to a kid who cares. Talk to my son about what's important to him. Like I'm learning from my children, everybody. Whether it's, you know, Phoebe and her desire to help the world through like international relations and really helping people in that way, or my son who, like, you know, the way that he looks at the gamification of things and looking at that, or, you know, Georgie who just knows everything about pop culture, I learned from them a lot. And I think older people who are not looking to younger people for learning are crazy.
- [103:58]
B
Yeah. Have you figured out how to better balance all of these things? We're in this, you know, post girl boss era.
- [104:07]
And having gone through what you Went through. Are you on the other side of it with a healthier appreciation for the other things in your life that are important, that often challenge or conflict with.
- [104:21]
Running a business?
- [104:22]
A
Yes and yes. And it's still really intense. I am trying to find, if you ask my husband, my husband would be like, she's not very balanced. I think if you were asked my friends, they'd say, I have a more balanced approach to it. I think I'm spending, I'm carving out more time for myself. I'm absolutely.
- [104:42]
Focused on what I'm eating, my exercise, my sleep. I don't compromise on that now. I used to years, maybe not so much during the beauty counter years, but I would sort of put my exercise last. Now it's like, nope, that's a non negotiable. For me, that is a non negotiable. Taking holiday and vacations with my family, non negotiable. I'm just like, you guys, if you guys can't handle the business for a week or two or two without me, we've got a real problem and letting other people do that too. And I'm trying to strike that balance. With all that said, it is an intense moment. And I think that I don't understand how people think that they can just kind of breeze in and out of businesses and build really successful companies. I haven't quite. If someone can figure out how to do it, I'd love to know. I mean, I see a lot of younger people, they think, oh, it's just like my side gig. Or I don't want to do a 9 to 5. Like now, you know, on sort of the tech side, they're saying nine, nine, six. If you're not willing to work from nine to nine, six days a week, like, we don't want you, they're going the direction again. I think it's hard to build businesses and so finding that balance is hard. But I am saying yes to a birthday party. If a friend invited me away for a weekend for her birthday where I would have not made it. And I lost so much time with people because of that. And friendships and your family are really, really important, obviously. And I lost time.
- [105:54]
B
Back to the clean beauty aspect of this. You have this like never list, right? Which is these are the ingredients that you should know are never gonna go on our products and not for. Those are probably the ingredients you should be aware of because they end up in all these other products that you're, you know, if you're not buying our products or something similar, you are going to be buying these things. So what are, what are some of those things? I want to, I want to kind of like leave people with some really practical.
- [106:23]
You know, pieces that when they go to the store the next time they're armed with a little bit more education.
- [106:32]
A
And don't ask me what they all stand for because I'm pegs. So you'll see in capital letters, P E G pegs, anything. The parabens. I know that in Europe they feel like they're okay. I don't agree with that.
- [106:47]
I would say edta.
- [106:52]
I'll tell you one that I think that people, any of the spray sun sunscreens, Oxybenzone, avobenzone, like you really don't want those. First of all, they're killing the coral reefs. But more importantly, not more importantly, as importantly, they're really harmful to us and people continue to use this. I understand that the mineral based sunscreens go on and they're a little whiter and chalkier and they don't look as cute. But like every time someone sprays that aerosol sunscreen on the beach, I just shudder and die. And then I think the one thing that if you do nothing else it's the industry is just shop fragrance free. Because some of the most offensive chemicals like those phthalates are found.
- [107:33]
In fragrance. And because of international IP law, a company does not have to disclose any of the ingredients in fragrance. Right. Because it's a trade secret. So don't be fooled by that. Just go for fragrance free products. You'll be 50% of the way there if you just do that. And we still publicly publish our never listen. I always say I'm not here for everyone to buy counter products. I'm here to help people make informed choices. They can use the environmental working groups skin deep database. I mean that's a good one that you can type in any product and see what it is that's in there. And there's a lot of talk about talc because of asbestos. There's some clean talc, there's some not so clean talc. But just pay attention and use those if you're shopping the market.
- [108:17]
B
And insofar as labels are concerned, for example with sunscreen, if it says coral safe, that doesn't necessarily. I mean it's supposed to be self policing, right? Like it's not reliable.
- [108:29]
A
Well if it sprays on clear and it has Ava Benzone or oxybenzone and it says it's reef safe, it's not. So I think that there's a lot of talk about this. And you know, we were in Hawaii in 2024 and we were talking about this and they could actually see they banned all of those sunscreens from Hawaii. Not that people don't sneak them in, but they are banned because they could see.
- [108:56]
Almost like an oil slick on top of the water outside of some of the bays because people were using so much sunscreen and it was going in and it's. I mean, we only have one earth in life to protect. Let's do the best to err on the side of being cautious and preventative rather than waiting for the repercussions of our decisions.
- [109:11]
B
Are you anticipating getting back to the Hill and doing what you were doing before? Is that on the the horizon?
- [109:18]
A
Yeah, maybe not this week. Yes, I do believe that we need to fight for. I really want to continue to focus on the modernization or the sort of getting toxic free cosmetics and personal care products. So when things, you know, we are actively still having conversations, but I think that it's a very challenging time, obviously I think that. But I do still encourage people to, you know, send members of conference in emails and texts saying that you care about your health and that you want them to take preventative measures to protect your health through cosmetics and personal care. We are going to focus on the fragrance loophole. We think that is one and also supply chain transparency. I said to you earlier in this podcast that in the conversation we had that you can pre preserve an ingredient and extract the juice from it, so to speak, put it into product and say it's preserved. Like that's part of the lack of supply chain transparency. A company shipping into the United States doesn't need to say that they actually pre preserve the rose petals with parabens or whatever the preservative is. We need to tackle up and so up and down the supply chain. There are a lot of loopholes that need to be tackled and fragrance is one of the other things that needs to be tackled. And we will continue our efforts both on the state and federal level to try to affect change.
- [110:36]
B
It can be paralyzing from a consumer perspective. We can't be expected to know all of these things when we're buying our product. They're relying on us not knowing these things, obviously, but just the well intentioned, reasonably well informed person who's trying to make the right choice. Well, their baby is in the grocery cart, whatever. It's just like there's only so much we can expect the consumer to know and to do.
- [111:03]
A
Of course, of Course, and it's also hard and it can be expensive. But things like your baby, your baby doesn't need to be watched with soap and water when they're like little baby, like just wash them with water. Like just. There are things that you can do. Like you can take your shoes off at the door, you can wash your floors with water and vinegar. You know, there are things that we can do just to remove from our day to day lives some of the most offensive chemicals. Don't store food in plastic. Just, you know, splurge on the glass and you know, maybe you buy less glass, but you keep it in glass. Don't microwave things in plastic. They're just things that consumers are doing because they're convenient, but they aren't necessarily healthy for, for you at all.
- [111:39]
B
Yeah. Has it been worth it?
- [111:41]
A
Yeah.
- [111:42]
B
Yeah.
- [111:42]
A
On every level.
- [111:43]
B
You're happy?
- [111:44]
A
I am happy. I mean, I'm still a little scared.
- [111:49]
It's not easy.
- [111:50]
B
It's early days.
- [111:50]
A
It's early days. But it feels good to be back in the game. It feels good to be working with people on something that I think really matters. And I do think that clean is worth fighting for. I think our health is worth fighting for. I think women are worth fighting for. And I, I do feel honored to have the opportunity to serve again. Whether we'll be a smashing success or not, I don't know. I'm gonna certainly give it my all. I think we can be, but I don't think it's a guarantee. But I am happy and I'm really, really appreciative for the outpouring of love from former clients, from people who sold. I was saying to an editor in New York last week, I remember when the shit went down, she sent me a text, was a woman named Linda Wells. She'd been at Alora magazine, really powerful in the beauty industry. And she said, how can I help? Like, I want to help. And those things meant so much to me along the way. And I continue to hear from people like, we're cheering from you. We want to see you guys do this. And so I do feel the support of many. I then turn to my friends and I'm like, you're cheering for me, but have you shopped? So, like, holidays are fast approaching. I got great solutions and counter products, but, you know, I'm hopeful and I'm excited and I'm really passionate. So still. But I'm also, I'm more mature and I'm more humble and I don't take anything for granted anymore. I Can tell you that.
- [113:09]
B
Yeah. Well, I'm cheering for you. Thank you. But I have yet to buy, so I have to buy now. But I can. Because you can do that on the website, right?
- [113:18]
A
You can do it on the website. 100%.
- [113:20]
B
So I was looking at. Is it counter.com?
- [113:22]
A
What is it?
- [113:22]
B
It's counter.com.
- [113:23]
A
Counter beauty and counter.
- [113:24]
B
Yep.
- [113:25]
A
And if someone goes the old counter wine that.
- [113:27]
B
You did a great job with the website as well.
- [113:28]
A
Thank you.
- [113:29]
B
You know, it definitely evokes the ethos of being very clean, you know?
- [113:32]
A
Yeah, we are clean and we're genuinely walking the walk. And it's hard and I want people to understand how hard it is. It's complex and comprehensive and real clean requires a lot of really hard work. It's not just that never list. It's what is the packaging? Is it leaching the toxin back in? Are we ethically and responsibly sourcing ingredients? Is a woman safe in the field while she's harvesting that crop? Like, we take it very seriously. And how I tell that story, I don't know. It's hard to tell. But I want people to know that I'm, you know, I do really care because people matter and our health matters. So I'll look forward to your purchase.
- [114:10]
B
Well, I'm proud of you. You know, I think what you're doing takes a lot of courage. Like, you didn't have to do this. You could have done a million other things and you're just marching right towards it, you know, And I think that speaks to your character. So thank you for coming and sharing. Thank you for having me sharing all of that with me today. I appreciate it.
- [114:27]
A
I appreciate you.
- [114:27]
B
All right, Greg, until next time.
- [114:29]
A
Until next time.
- [114:31]
B
Peace.
- [114:36]
All right, everybody, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's episode page@richroll.com where you will find the entire podcast archive, as well as my books, Finding Ultra, the Voicing Change series, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free. Actually, all you got to do is subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review or drop a comment. Sharing your show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome as well and extremely helpful. So thank you in advance for that. In addition, I'd like to thank all of our amazing sponsors, without whom this show just would not be possible, or at least, you know, not free. To check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at Rich Roll. Today's show is produced and engineered by Jason Cameiolo along with Associate Producer Desmond Lowe. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course, our theme music, as always, was created all the way back in 2012 by my stepsons Tyler and Trapper Pyatt, who, along with her cousin Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, and I'll see you back here soon. Peace Plants.