Jay Duplass (3:28)

The movie is set during six months of sobriety. And that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot, is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety, as the movie's about what it takes to get sober. But this movie really is about being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it. And, you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was, you know, his desperate fear of like never being funny again. That was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is like being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world. And if you are sober and you can't do that, obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living in that moment.

Michael Strassner (4:20)

I was downstairs in my basement and my best thinking was, I don't think I want to be here anymore, you know, So I tried to hang myself and luckily the belt broke and the next day was the first day I actually asked for help.

Rich Roll (4:42)

So there was a brief chapter of my life, this period of time in which I was beginning to kind of give my curiosity wider birth to explore new projects and do interesting and different types of creative things, while also looking for kind of ways out of my lawyer career. But also before the full blown existential crisis meets health scare incident that basically precipitated the chapter that I'm most well known for, which was my period of lifestyle upheaval and then ultra endurance competition. But the phase I'm talking about right now is a phase of my life that I actually don't think I've talked about very much. It all went down when I was working as an entertainment lawyer, no longer in the big giant law firms, but in a small firm that I had formed with a couple friends at the time. I was working with writers and producers in the then, I think very exciting independent film space. And I actually had a fair amount of fun doing this. Probably the most fun that you could have as a lawyer at Least in my opinion. I have very fond memories of attending the Sundance Film Festival and being energized by supporting and just by being around young artists, young filmmakers who were so devoted to realizing their dreams. And there was something very inspirational about that. I have this one memory that really stands out among many great memories attending the Sundance Film Festival. And it was for the premiere of a film that was called Love Liza. And on one side of me, sitting in the audience was my friend Gordy, who had written that movie and would go on to win the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award that year at Sundance for the Best screenplay. And sitting on the other side of me was Gordo's brother Phil, as in Philip Seymour Hoffman. And then next to him was their mother, Marilyn, who was a judge in Rochester at the time and somebody I had become friends with. And I guess I'm sharing that because this was the kind of experience I realized that, you know, kind of a peak experience that no corporate law firm was ever going to be able to deliver to me. And another reason why it was a somewhat enjoyable period of time for me was because it sated the appetite of my inner shadow artist. Because I think what I really wanted to do back then was what my clients were doing, which was write and direct low budget independent movies. But that was too risky, far too scary. Whereas being just in the proximity of other people that were doing it felt fun, but safe, you know, because it gives this illusion of being part of something that you're actually kind of not. Anyway, this fascination with film that I had wasn't exactly a new idea. I'd been a PA on sets when I lived in New York City for a couple years at the beginning of the 90s. I attended NYU for a filmmaking intensive one summer. But steeping myself in it as a lawyer began inching me towards stepping more into the art form itself. So I did what you do when you live in LA as a requirement, which is to begin writing a screenplay. So that's what I did in collaboration with my wife Julie, later with my friend Drew, on the script that I would truncate into something that in 2003 I could realize as a short film that I was capable of directing. That film was called Down Dog, which was like this 15 minute, very broad satire on the very ripe to be made fun of yoga scene in LA at that time. And the film's fine, I guess. It's not like I've gone back and watched it. Parts of it, I suppose, might hold up. But I will say that there was a very brief moment in time back then when the script, the feature version of it, caught the eye of Matthew McConaughey's then production company called JK Levin. And it appeared for like a millisecond, like maybe this project would turn into a movie that would get made with Double M in the starring role. Of course, that all quickly ended. That script ended back up in a drawer and I would get interested in other things, things that would eventually lead me here. Anyway, I bring all of this up only because this little film that I made, Down Dog, ended up playing a bunch of film festivals. It even won an award here and there. And one of those festivals was the Bend film festival in 2000. And at that festival, the feature that everyone was talking about was this film called the Puffy Chair. It was a super low budget lo fi indie production by first time writer directors Jay and Mark Duplass, who also happened to be brothers. I made a point to see it and I knew immediately that the guys behind it were, unlike me, very much the real deal. Jay was not there in person. He was with the Puffy Chair film at another festival that weekend, but Mark was. And I got a chance to meet him, got to hang out with him a little bit. And so, partly because of that, I've always felt emotionally invested in these brothers, maybe more than I should. And watching them succeed, seeing them rise to such a high level in the crazy business that is the movie industry, has been a real joy for me over the years. These two have made tons of great stuff, but these days they're off doing separate things. Part of this sort of conscious uncoupling of sorts, in which Mark has gone on to become basically a legitimate movie star. Jay in his own right, a producer and executive producer on like a zillion television and other projects out there. He started acting for the first time. You should check him out in season two of HBO's Industry, which is a show where he plays a hedge fund guy. He does a great job. In addition to that show just being next level, his performance is very unique and memorable. But the thing that Jay had not done is direct a film all on his own was this hole in his experience that he began to fill when he came across this improv guy, Michael Strassner, by way of Michael's short comedic videos on social media. And Michael's also this guy who happens to have this pretty extraordinary addiction and recovery story. These two connected, Jay and Michael. They concocted a plan to work together and came up with a creative idea for a movie that they ended up co writing for Strasner to star in and for Jay to finally solo direct. The culmination of this collaboration is the Baltimore Ons, which is this really great, heartfelt little indie that could with all the elements that bring up all of my Sundance nostalgia, and a film that is getting not only unanimous rays, but also what is almost impossible for a tiny feature in 2025, which is a theatrical release, meaning you can and should see it immediately in theaters. So this one is a little bit of everything. It's an old school what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. Miracle of a sobriety story. It's an artist origin story. It's a state of the union on filmmaking and television in the streaming area. It's about venturing creative and it's about finding your voice, along with all the kind of hows and whys of cultivating and sharing it. This one plays a little bit like a James Fry Craig Maude mashup, along with a few other recent guests that fall squarely into the old school category, which as I've been talking about, is really the direction that I'm interested in moving the show more towards, more so than I have in recent years, at least in part because I'm a little fatigued. I'm a little bit bored by the recent over emphasis of podcasting on things like protocols for self optimization, this reverse engineering of podcasts that are turning into conversations that are basically predetermined. And I'm not crazy about that. And I really want to intentionally fall back in love with what led me to fall in love with this thing so long ago, which is just honest and open ended conversations informed by real life stories, earnest stories that are lifted from real life lived experience. Because to me, I mean, that's the shit, man. And I actually think that this is what we're missing and right now especially what I think we need more of. Or at least I know that I do because it leads to what we happen to be lacking, in my opinion as a culture right now, which is more empathy and more understanding. So that's what we're going to do today. And this is what I'm going to focus on more going forward. So if you're into that, great. If you're not, that's awesome too. There's lots of other stuff out there for you. Have at it. But here I'm going to do my best to keep it true, to be true to what moves me, true to what I think is important when it comes to getting our head around the human condition. And I think this conversation is exactly that. So with that, this is me, J. Duplass and Michael Strossner. So have at it. Well, this is a big moment for both of you guys. It's your first solo directing effort. And, you know, Michael, obviously this is like a launchpad for you. So that's gotta be like, you know, like, it's wild, very cool, but possibly deranging. Also, you don't keep yourself cool, grounded.

Michael Strassner (14:25)

Exactly.

Rich Roll (14:26)

But I think, Jay, as an outsider looking in on your career, you and your brother, you've gone off and you've flexed in all these different areas, and you've got your hands in so many different projects, but it feels like your compass is pretty well calibrated. There is a pretty solid understanding of this is what I do, or these are the areas in which I excel. And all of the products feel, on some level, of a piece with each other, even if you're stretching over here or over there. And I believe there's a narrative around the Baltimorans that this is sort of a return to your roots. But I don't necessarily see it that way. I just feel like it's an extension of what you've always been doing. There's a purity to it, perhaps that makes it unique and special. But like many people, like everyone, like, my introduction to you and your brother was the puffy chair. And I actually, I met your brother in 2005 at the Bend Film Festival when he was there with the movie, because I had written and directed a short film that was also screening at that amazing. At that festival called Down Dog. It was like this parody of the LA yoga scene.

Jay Duplass (15:41)

That's great.

Rich Roll (15:42)

And I kind of palled around with your brother a little bit and got to know him. And I just remember when I saw that film, I was like, oh, like, these guys are for real. This is a real movie. Like, they're going places. And your brother, at that time, you know, he was telling me, like, oh, they were. You guys were getting writing assignments already and stuff like that. Like, the foundation of your career was already kind of taking place at that time. And so that kind of, like, gave me an emotional connection to, like, the career that the two of you have been having. But this movie now, like, I was living in New York when Slacker came out, and, you know, it was all Hal Hartley and Elle Mariachi, and, you know, then it was Sex Lies In Videotape and Blue Velvet, these movies that just really changed, like, my young mind around, like, what A movie could be. And there was so much hope and, like, earnestness and excitement and possibility during that period of time. And I would go to Sundance every year, and it was just like, so exciting to go to these premieres and see these filmmakers get up on stage and just, you know, their dream had come true. You know, it was just very special. And this movie, the Baltimorans, very much feels like a movie out of time. Like, it is a movie from that era that shares that DNA. So was that, like, part of the, you know, the thinking process? Like, it's anachronistic that this movie. The reviews are incredible. Everybody's very excited about it, and it's actually getting a theatrical release. Like, a movie like this doesn't go into the theaters anymore. Like, it is, like, out of time. Like, it's this bizarre unicorn.

Jay Duplass (17:26)

I mean, most independent films don't get a theatrical nowadays, much less one with no movie stars. I mean, Michael is a movie star. People just don't know it yet.

Michael Strassner (17:35)

But, yeah, three months from now, possibly.

Jay Duplass (17:37)

Yeah, possibly. Very possible.

Michael Strassner (17:39)

Keeping standards low, though.

Jay Duplass (17:40)

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is very unusual to have this kind of success with a tiny little movie. And I did return to my roots. You know, I was coming off of a long period of, you know, big things in my life happening. And it might not be perceptible to other people in the public because we do produce a lot of things and we support people, and we're always involved in helping people make things, TV shows, movies, whatever it may be. But, you know, over the last seven or eight years, I've essentially gone through, like, a loving breakup with my brother about us making art, you know, in a forced march, almost immigrant style way, you know, where we've come to realize that, like, you know, I actually still want to be the Coen brothers on some level. I'm just going to do it on my own. I want to be a writer, director. My brother More runs a tiny little studio. Our company is basically a small studio. So it's been like, a long journey. But ultimately, what led me to Michael and to this project is, you know, I was going through that breakup trying to figure out how I was going to make movies again. We had the pandemic, which kind of destroyed independent films because a Covid budget on an independent film is more expensive than the independent film to do. The protocols, basically. And then we had our strikes. And towards the end of the strikes, I realized I had not directed a movie in 14 years. I've been supporting everybody else in making their Stuff. And I just got to the point where I was like, I need to make a movie come hell or high water. Which was exactly the place I was at when we made the Puffy Chair, which is at that time, I was like, I gotta do it. Because that's the thing about Hollywood, which you know well, which you know well, which is, like, it's very easy to confuse talking about making movies with making movies. They are not the same thing. And, you know, my brother and I, over time, we really forced ourselves into, you know, an almost compulsive creativity because. And we even had a philosophy around it, which was just for me and him. But it started coming out, and now it's like a. I guess it's like an independent film mantra, which is make movies, not meetings. Because even when you get involved in Hollywood, they just want to talk about stuff. And our philosophy, even when we have a meeting with the studio, would be like, we love to make this movie with you. We are making this movie on August 15th. If you would like to be a part of it, that would be fantastic, because we don't want to have to pay for it with the measly $17,000 we can scrounge together. But we are making it. And Hollywood being essentially a junior high dating scene, the less you need them, the more they want you.

Rich Roll (20:42)

You know what I mean? Instead of being, you know, being on your knees and. And begging and being in this. This, you know, weak place from which to negotiate, just being like, we're doing it. Like, do you want to get on the bus or not? Like, we're cool. But. Yeah, that's. That's a. That's a power move.

Jay Duplass (20:59)

It is. It was our own little weird power move. And so I kind of returned to that place, and I also, you know, I knew I was gonna be, you know, I had made. I hadn't made a movie in 14 years, and Hollywood is. What have you done lately? And so I just thought to myself, I was like, I need to return to the place of the Puffy Chair, where I can just tell a true story and use the people who are living it. And I was just thinking about my life, and I had gotten to know Michael a little bit via Instagram.

Rich Roll (21:29)

Yeah. How did you guys. How did you guys meet? We.

Michael Strassner (21:33)

So I was putting up, like, dumb videos on Instagram. They weren't dumb. They were very smart and sophisticated. But it was Buffalo Bill talking to his Alexa.

Jay Duplass (21:43)

Buffalo Bill, the mess.

Rich Roll (21:44)

You got a lot of videos up there, you know, playing characters and stuff.

Michael Strassner (21:50)

So I did this one. And also I would do Brene Brown a bunch, because I was such a Brene Brown fan. And I would play, like. I would just be talking about, like, random stuff that she would be, like, yelling at her husband basically about. It's like, you know, Steve, you know.

Rich Roll (22:04)

What I really did?

Michael Strassner (22:05)

I went to. I got ice cream the other day. You know what ice cream stands for? I courageously encourage courage, redeem myself ashamed. And I just saw Jay follow me, and I was like, holy shit. Like, my hero follows me. Someone I've looked up to for years. I am going like, it was crazy. I was just like, you know, And I had a short film at the time that I was looking for an actress for, and I was like, you know what? This guy helps out a lot of people. Why not me? And I just sent him a dm, and I was like, hey, Jay, I'm a huge fan of yours. All this stuff that I listed, I'm trying to shoot this short film. If you could help, great. If not, it just means the world that you read this. That was in September of 2021. He got back to me in February of 2022, and he was like, dude, I don't check Instagram. I don't know how it works.

Jay Duplass (22:56)

I don't know how it works. I know people think I'm savvy, I'm old, and I don't know how social media works.

Michael Strassner (23:02)

Yeah, to the point now where, like, we'll be together. And he's like, can you help me post this? Like, I'm trying to make sure it's not cropped out. And I was like, I gotcha. Come here. And he messaged me back, and he was like, send me the script. I sent him the script. And he was like, come over my house. And I was like, I was doing Buffalo Bill videos, and you want me to come over your house where your kids live? Okay, sure. And we just have this, like, great lunch. He helps me with the short. I shoot it, I edit it, I direct it. And then I come back and he. And this is, like, the stuff that, like, is unheard of in Hollywood, in my opinion. He took time out of his day to help me. And then we came back for the edit, and he, like, stopped, and he was like, okay, like, this is where you cut here. This is where you. And he just, like, showed me how to do it, and. God, I'm getting emotional this early.

Jay Duplass (23:50)

We're gonna cry.

Michael Strassner (23:50)

Yeah, we're. And it was just the first person that really took time with me. You know, and it was then I took him out to lunch to thank him in December of 2022, and I gave him a Sidney Pollock picture of Tootsie because he said it was one of his favorite movies. And I told him a little about my story, how I got sober. And after that lunch, I put on my manifestations, shoot a movie with Jay Duplass Number two, Number one's Always Stay sober every year. And he calls me up in April, and he's like, hey, man, I want to make a movie, and I want you to be the star of it. You want to do it? And I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome. What? And he was like, I would have.

Rich Roll (24:38)

Thought that you had been putting together a script and that on the heels of Jay sort of opening his door to you, that that would lead to you then coming to him with a script. No, and that's not the way it happened.

Michael Strassner (24:51)

No, it was like. Then I came over his house, and the car that I parked out front here doesn't have ac, and I showed up to his house shirtless, and I.

Jay Duplass (25:01)

Happen to be looking out of the window, and I see this large bear of a man getting out of his tiny little Jetta without a shirt on and using his shirt to fan himself dry.

Rich Roll (25:12)

That's like some Jack Black shirt. Yeah, truly, you know?

Jay Duplass (25:15)

Truly. I was just like, this guy is a living movie right here. I'm like, first of all, I was like, that's going in the movie for sure.

Michael Strassner (25:22)

Yeah. We shot in December, though, so that's.

Jay Duplass (25:24)

We shot in December in Baltimore. That was the one thing we couldn't pull off.

Michael Strassner (25:26)

Yeah, but literally, I'm like, I see him out of the corner of my eye, and I'm sure. I'm like, hey, Jay, how are you? Just give me a minute, you know, Just need to get my back dry. And then we just kind of, like, I would just kind of tell him, like, stories, and we kind of. And then also stories and then locations that we had in Baltimore for free, you know, that we kind of backed this movie in together.

Jay Duplass (25:48)

Yeah, we kind of. Same as Puffy Chair at the time. That was a movie about my brother and his girlfriend and my brother trying to make it as a musician. And, you know, we had a touring band. We had this tiny town in Maine that Katie was from. And, you know, we had a bunch of desperate people. And by a bunch, I mean seven. Seven desperate people. Like, you know, my brother, myself, our actors, our girlfriends, now our wives, you know, so it was the similar philosophy, which is, you know, Michael had really opened his heart to me and told me what he'd been through. I mean, he had already established himself as a hilarious person, but then learned his, you know, his origin story essentially of becoming sober. And it just inspired me. And, you know, I was like, I think this is it. And, you know, he's. Michael's originally from Baltimore and one of his best friends, David Bonnett, was there and was looking for work. He had been Paul Rubin's assistant, and Paul Rubins had just died and he was looking for work and had returned to Baltimore from la. And we were just like, I think we can create a movie in Baltimore that's essentially, you know, semi autobiographical and it will be, you know, as authentic as a movie could possibly be. Because ultimately, in the end, I'm trying. I wanna. Look, we're in the age of TikTok and social media and all this stuff, but, like, you and I grew up watching movies. That was a dominant art form. It was the dominant art form for Andrea too.

Michael Strassner (27:16)

You too?

Rich Roll (27:16)

You too.

Michael Strassner (27:17)

I mean, I would go to the movies by myself and sit there and just like escape for an hour. It was like that. And drugs and alcohol is what I.

Jay Duplass (27:25)

Loved, you know, But I mean, I am always focused on, like, you know, a couple of things, which is like, what can I give people that they need, you know, that people are craving? And also, how can I platform beautiful, incredible people who are not being seen and who are not being witnessed and who are inspiring to me and can, you know, lift people up and give them a great time in a movie theater? And so Michael was it, you know, and I knew inherently that he was scrappy enough to go to Baltimore with me and make a movie on the streets of Baltimore in the middle of the night in freezing, freezing cold weather for no money and just like, make a piece of art and just hope that, you know, hope and dream that, you know, it would be seen by people one day and celebrated by people.

Rich Roll (28:20)

Yeah, there's like a couple things that stand out for me and what you just shared. The first thing is like, you're approaching it from an audience member and from a perspective of, like, how can I serve the audience? Like, you know, how can I help uplift this guy who I feel like needs to be seen more and, like, how can I serve the audience rather than, like, how can I look good as a director or how can I, you know, it's a service minded approach, right? Which is obviously like a, you know, it's a way of being in relationship with the world that's a very, that's a very, you know, kind of AA sensibility. But there's this earnestness in the film, you know, which is rare. Like, it's sort of, there's a sweetness to it. You know, it's not cynical like our time. You know, there is a, it's uplifting and heartfelt and vulnerable and you know, these characters are kind of just laying it all out there unapologetically, you know, and there's real beauty in that. And you just, just don't see movies like that anymore. And especially like low budget independent films. Like, it's just, you know, it's, it, it did like take me back, you know, decades to when these were the kind of movies that were coming out all the time.

Jay Duplass (29:30)

Yeah, that's been the, the most incredible thing that we've experienced in terms of audience reaction. I mean, we've only been to film festivals so far and we've, we've won an inordinate amount of audience awards. I've never had this experience before, even with Giant, you know, not Giant movies of the larger movies that I've made. And the, that comment has kept coming back to us is this is actually the movie I want to see on a Saturday night with my partner or with my friends. Like, this is the movie I want. This is the movie that will get me back into the movie theater.

Michael Strassner (30:05)

And also like the people have come up to me and like said I want to live in a world where this movie exists. And like, that's been like the sweetest compliment to do, you know.

Jay Duplass (30:16)

And the wild part is that everyone who came to work on this movie, it's really a self fulfilling prophecy in a way because when you can only pay people the bare minimum, they only will be there unless they want to be there, unless they really care and need to be there spiritually. So we had 15 people on the ground in Baltimore who were just like crying with us every day as we were shooting these scenes and laughing with us every day and just having the time of our lives. Like the experience of making the movie together was for us the way that I think the audience is experiencing the movie. And that's been very refreshing because it is so easy to look out into the world and get discouraged. But like it, you know, it's just a reminder that it's on us to create the beauty and the culture and the joy and the love that we want to experience every day. Like we are the manifestors of our own destiny. And you know, at the time, you know, I mean, It's a very cheap movie, but movies still cost money. And, you know, the philosophy behind it was kind of like, we're gonna lose money on this movie. You know what I mean?

Rich Roll (31:35)

We were kind of like, maybe we'll put it up on YouTube or something.

Jay Duplass (31:38)

Yes. I mean, it was like, Jay has.

Michael Strassner (31:40)

Told me several times, like, we're not gonna make money on this.

Rich Roll (31:44)

Yeah, but you're probably like, like, I don't care. I'll pay you.

Michael Strassner (31:46)

Yeah, exactly. Truly, I was like, how much you need from me? Like, I got a little bit in the savings, you know?

Rich Roll (31:53)

Yeah. That point of, like, take responsibility for creating the beauty you want to see in the world is similar to that speech that your brother gave at south by Southwest about, like, no one's coming to save you.

Jay Duplass (32:06)

Yeah, Calgary isn't coming.

Rich Roll (32:08)

It's an industry in which there's a lot of gatekeepers. And you were just mentioning, like, yeah, you gotta raise money. But, like, that power move of saying, like, we're doing this no matter what speaks to that idea that we're not waiting for permission from many of these people. And yes, the tools that are available now democratize, like, access to this kind of storytelling. It still costs money.

Jay Duplass (32:33)

Still costs money, but it is. But you don't need so much cheaper.

Rich Roll (32:36)

And I think there was once just this grand romance about making a studio film or whatever, being anointed by the powerful people in Hollywood who are kind of pulling you out of the crowd and saying, this is the next guy that feels like it's gone. Which kind of opens it up to everybody to just go out and make shit.

Jay Duplass (32:59)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, making stuff is. It's the most fun thing to do. And it does create your own reality. And it is exactly what you're saying that. I mean, most of the people that I know, I mean, look, we're considered an overnight success. But by the time I had made the Puffy chair, I was 31 years old. I had made three failed features. I had made a bunch of shitty short films. I had finally made a couple of short films that had some traction. So Puffy Chair was the last ditch effort for me. I mean, it was like I was, you know, had just turned 30, and I was like, I can't do this to myself anymore. I can't drag myself through this torture and my family through that. People were worried about me, you know, but ultimately I loved making movies. You know, that's what I loved doing. And I just kept doing it. And everyone that I know that is successful, it's never an overnight success story. It's attrition. It's forging forward. When all the signs even tell you you shouldn't be successful, this isn't going to work. I mean, it's similar to what you created with your podcast. It's like following people around and going into their hotel rooms with little cameras that you barely knew how to work at the time because ultimately your heart was in the right place and you knew that there were stories to tell that needed to get out there. That's what I've learned over and over again. It's weird that I've been doing this for, like, 30 years. I mean, I've only been successful for 20 of them. But it's funny, because I feel like the answer to every question at a film festival is, make an undeniably great film. Because everyone wants, how do I get this? How do I get that? How are we going to get a tiny movie distributed with no stars at a time when people are saying movies are dead, you know, like, and independent films are off off Broadway now, you know? And the answer is, I don't care. I love this guy. He has a story to tell. I will talk about Liz a little bit, but his co star, Liz Larson, I fell in love with her. I learned about her personal story and incorporated that. And I was like, this is a story that I just want to tell, and I just have to trust that it's going to go into the world. And. And contrary to what everyone was predicting, we are actually gonna make money on this movie, and we're gonna release it theatrically in movie theaters this fall. And it's totally insane. I'm sitting here talking like, I created this or believe in this philosophy. But I also doubted. I mean, I told Michael, I was like, we need to be prepared.

Michael Strassner (35:59)

This is not gonna sell to make no money.

Jay Duplass (36:01)

We need to be prepared to maybe have trouble at festivals. We need to be prepared for all these things. We just need to know that, like, we want to tell this story. It's very, very important to us. And we're gonna do this, and that's gonna be enough, and then we're gonna see where it goes.

Michael Strassner (36:14)

And the coolest thing was within 24 hours of us premiering at South By, I was walking down the street with Jay, and he got a text, and it was like, we got our first.

Jay Duplass (36:24)

Like, offer distribution, and that ended up being the one.

Michael Strassner (36:27)

Yeah. IFC.

Rich Roll (36:34)

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Jay Duplass (39:50)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (39:50)

And just, just believing in that and doubling down on that is like inspirational. But Michael, like you mentioned, okay, the story is semi autobiographical, so, like, we gotta do a little bit of what.

Michael Strassner (40:05)

Happened and what it's like now.

Rich Roll (40:06)

Your story is pretty wild.

Michael Strassner (40:09)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, and everyone was always like, oh, the wire. I think it's more like hairspray, you know, got more light and fun. But, you know, grew up with my mom, my dad, two sisters. And then my parents got divorced when I was 8. And then my neighbors became my step family. So we kind of had this merger family. And, you know, like, I just didn't like being like the talk of Towson. Like, you know, our smaller, like we were kind of like everyone was talking about the Strassners and all this stuff. And also I think I put a lot of that on me. Like, you know, I think just like so many other alcoholics and addicts.

Rich Roll (40:53)

Meaning, like there's. There's some drama coming out of that house. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Strassner (40:57)

And you know, like, it, it all, it all was like a. It was a little bit of a tough, you know, upbringing and then. But when I found, ironically enough, I smoked for the first time when I was 10, little weed outside of CVS.

Rich Roll (41:13)

Congratulations.

Michael Strassner (41:14)

Yeah, it was awesome. It was actually not even behind cvs. We were at the front door to the right. So just two 10 year olds SM pot out of an apple in Baltimore, which was really great. And then the funny thing is the next day I went over my friend's house and I was like, we can smoke any kind of weed because I'm 10 years old, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And we go to the pantry and we get dill weed out and we roll that up in computer paper and we smoke that. And we did not get high, but we like hurt our throats. And miss Pontier came home and she's like, why does it smell like matches in here? What have you been lighting? But my whole point is, once I did it, I couldn't wait to do it again. And the Same thing happened with alcohol, you know. And then ironically enough, When I was 12, I took five shots, went to a party and then threw up everywhere. That night. My mom picked me up and went to the hospital, got my stomach pumped. Like 12 at 12.

Rich Roll (42:10)

And that's for real.

Michael Strassner (42:11)

Yeah. And. And I knew that, like, I didn't feel well, but I couldn't wait to do it again. And you know, it was just more of that. And also, like, the thing that I also realized was I loved drinking and doing drugs, but I also made. I loved making my mom laugh. That was like the two things, you know. And my heroes were like Robin Williams, Chris Farley, you know, Bill Murray were all people I looked up to.

Rich Roll (42:36)

There's definitely some Bill Murray in this character.

Michael Strassner (42:38)

Oh yeah, for sure. Who? And there's some Farley, you know, physicality wise. Like, I love that this movie has physical comedy because I feel like I never see that anymore. And done like, actually, like, not like low brow, you know, but, you know, and then. But the thing is, like, growing up in Baltimore, there was really never any talk about, like, I think now it's more conversational. But like, you know, I got in a hit and run when I was 19. Cause I reached down for Crunchwrap supreme at a red light and I hit a fire hydrant and then two parked cars. And then I got out on foot and called my mom and I was like, mom, you gotta come get me. And she's like, michael, you have the car. And I was like, well, I know where it's parked. And then I came back and got arrested and everything. And my best thinking was, I guess I should join a fraternity now. You know, the opposite of like, maybe this guy's got a problem. Maybe this guy needs some help.

Rich Roll (43:32)

Maybe let's institutionalize this.

Jay Duplass (43:33)

Yes, exactly, absolutely.

Michael Strassner (43:36)

But like, you know, consequences really didn't happen for me. You know, I moved out to LA and like, to be a comedian, to be a comedian, you had to be an actor. And to follow in like the footsteps of my heroes, you know, I wanted to be on SNL so bad. Like, that was all I ever wanted, you know. And I got that opportunity back in 2017. I went to New York and tested twice. The second time I tested, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll be living here. Like, this is going to be great. Great. Not sober at the time. And when I came back, I was just like super depressed. And, you know, the way the movie starts is I don't. Should we give it away or.

Jay Duplass (44:19)

Yeah, you, the Movie.

Michael Strassner (44:21)

The way the movie starts is a failed suicide attempt. And, you know, I was downstairs in my basement, and my best thinking was, I don't think I want to be here anymore. You know?

Rich Roll (44:35)

So on the heels of. Of not getting the snl, not getting.

Michael Strassner (44:38)

The snl, things just not going my way or whatever type of story I had to tell myself, and I tried to hang myself, and luckily the belt broke. And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help. And, you know, like, I just look back on that and it's like, crazy to me that, like, it could have went another way and I might not have been here.

Jay Duplass (45:06)

Astronomical odds that you are here.

Michael Strassner (45:08)

Yeah, exactly.

Rich Roll (45:09)

The other piece that. That is similar to the story in the movie is. Is kind of getting booted out of your improv group. Right. Like, was it the Groundlings or. Yeah. So Citizens or what?

Michael Strassner (45:23)

Yeah. So basically what happened was I was in the Sunday Company there and they told me to take a leave of absence and you'll be welcome back with open arms.

Jay Duplass (45:32)

And they wanted you to get sober?

Michael Strassner (45:34)

Yeah, they wanted me to get sober, and so I did that. And it was like, the first time that, like, consequences were, like, there, you know, and when they said that, like, it's the best thing ever happened to me because I got sober and haven't had a drink since, you know, and.

Rich Roll (45:52)

So did you go to treatment or did you just, like, shut up, I don't have insurance. Go to a meeting or. How did that.

Michael Strassner (45:56)

How did that went to a meeting? This guy met me at a store Starbucks, and he, like, literally, I didn't understand why he was meeting me. I didn't understand, like, why he was taking time out of his day angle. What's the angle here? Yeah, and he was like, you know, someday you're gonna do for somebody else. And he took me to my first meeting on a Monday morning. And ironically enough, it was like I was driving Uber for one of my odd jobs out here. I was driving Uber and I. I picked up somebody at like 7am in the morning one time, like two years before this, and I was like, where are you headed? And she's like, I'm just going to, like, this AA because I'm so nosy, I'm going to this AA meeting. And I was like, oh, I didn't know they do that that early. That's awesome. Congrats. Hope you figure it out.

Jay Duplass (46:46)

Meanwhile, you're drunk driving her, probably.

Michael Strassner (46:48)

Yeah, exactly. And ironically enough, that's the first meeting I walked into.

Rich Roll (46:52)

Yeah, it was like did you clock it? Like, you remembered, like, oh, I remember I dropped somebody off here, so at least I know where that one is.

Michael Strassner (46:58)

Ye.

Rich Roll (46:58)

Yeah.

Michael Strassner (46:58)

And, you know, like, I just. I kind of, like, I didn't want to be there, you know, I did not want to be sober. I did not want. Because I was all. I was also, like, so afraid of what life looked like without this thing that I had for so long.

Rich Roll (47:13)

That's a huge theme that I want to, like, put a pin in that, because I want to. I want to dig into that a little bit more deeply. But before we do that, like, I suspect that there is this. You know, you mentioned Farley, right? So you're. If you're trying to, like, you know, mimic your heroes, you know, it's sort of that rock star thing. It's like, well, this is the lifestyle, man. I'm gonna go to la. And it's like you're trying to live the, like, you know, swingers, the movie lifestyle. You gotta be at these clubs and you gotta, you know, show up, post up, and be the guy, be the center of attention and all that kind of stuff that is, like, fueling your desire to be, like, seen and recognized and.

Jay Duplass (47:52)

Yeah, and the way you described your comedy performances at Groundlings, like, Michael was known as, like, the guy who can, like, save a sketch with, like, a topless belly flop at any point in time, you know, is just, like, sacrificing your body. Like, you know, just going nuts on stage. That was a big part of, like.

Michael Strassner (48:13)

There was just this one thing that I did where I was like, this Southern. I was like, this Southern gym teacher that just, like, kept on wanting to get into the glory days and, like, would just get, like, tackled and, like, sacked. Like, and I was taking hits on stage and, like, I had main company members be like, you're not actually, like. Like, like, there's mats down. I'm like, no, I'm just taking it, you know, and it's like, I just love the pain of it. Like, whatever I could do for a laugh, I would do it, you know? And, like. And I also thought that, like, I'm more funny when I'm drunk. Like, there's Those go together. Like, that's not a thing. And thank God there's, like, not any. There wasn't iPhones back in 2016 when I was going to weddings because, you know, I was the guy who would, like, put one sock on my. My foot and another sock on another appendage and then be like, anyone see my other sock? And women didn't like that. You know, like, my. My. My buddy's fiance's were like, michael has a problem. And, you know, it was just like, I just didn't want to deal with it. I was like, this is. This is what my heroes did. Like, Farley got nude. Like, Farley did, like, big physical stuff. And, like, Belushi.

Rich Roll (49:22)

You can just list them off. Yeah, yeah. And ironically, in every art form, too, that idea that. That drugs and alcohol are the portal to creativity, like, we know that that's not true, but it is a deeply entrenched thing, and the prospect of having to break up with that is terrifying. It's like an existential crisis. Like, you're. I won't be able to do. I have to be willing to not be able to do this thing that I love that brought me here, that I'm so invested in, in order to save my life 100%.

Michael Strassner (49:51)

And, like, ironically enough, the first book I read when I got sober was the Chris Farley Show. And the book opens up with him talking to a group of addicts and saying, if he can do it, anybody can do it. And I was like, I had no idea that he, you know, like, tried and, like, had time. And I read that page and I was like, okay, well, yeah, if. If he could do it, maybe I could do this. You know, like, he wasn't just a, you know, crazy drunk person. You know, he. And ironically enough, too, Tommy boy was completely sober. And it's like the best performance. I feel like I didn't know that. Yeah.

Rich Roll (50:28)

Yeah. So this is, like the quiet theme, you know, kind of lingering behind the scenes throughout the film. Yeah, that's, like, you know, clawing at him.

Jay Duplass (50:36)

Yeah. The movie is set during six months of sobriety, and that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot, is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety. There's movies about what it takes to get sober, because all the wildness, you know, gets to come out in a film. But this movie really is about. About, you know, being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it. And, you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was, you know, his desperate fear of, like, never being funny again. That was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is, like, being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world. And if you are sober, and you can't do that. Obviously, you made the decision that it wasn't worth living in that moment. But, you know, one of the things that's so amazing about Michael, and probably the linchpin of what really made me want to make this movie, is when he told me about his suicide story and how the belt broke. He told me because he was holding a little bit of holiday weight at the time, which, you know, the wherewithal of a person to be in tears, telling me about the day that he was supposed to die and also make a hilarious joke. I was like, if you don't mind, that's going in the movie, of course.

Michael Strassner (52:07)

You know, and, like, I realized when I would start, you know, once I had gotten some time in sobriety and, like, you know, would start sharing at meetings and such, and, like, I would start, like, hearing the room laugh about the stuff, and I was like, oh. Like, it's like, the first time I heard laughter and sobriety was in the rooms, you know, and, like, seeing people, like, open up their heart, but also, like, have a room full of alcoholics laughing at stuff or drug, you know, and it was just like, this is magic to me. Oh, I found that community that I have always wanted, you know, and. And, like, I did not do it by myself either. Like, a lot of people helped me get there, you know, Some of whom.

Rich Roll (52:53)

Happen to be mutual friends. Yeah, Shout out Scotty G. Always. I know he's listening and watching. Yeah, he comes up a lot.

Michael Strassner (53:02)

He's the best.

Rich Roll (53:04)

And so at this point, you have. So now what do you have? Like, six or seven.

Michael Strassner (53:08)

Seven years?

Rich Roll (53:08)

Yeah. Yeah, Seven years. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (53:10)

And it's just been, like. It truly has been, like, the most crazy experience ever. Like, I. I was saying this the other day is, like, all I ever wanted was, you know, get on snl, get on TV show, and, like, that's it. And, like, God, my God, whatever, you know, has taken me on this whole other journey where, like, I didn't think we were going to win the audience award. I didn't think Baltimore Hounds was going to take me all over the world and all over the country to, like, show this movie.

Jay Duplass (53:41)

Like.

Michael Strassner (53:41)

Like, that's not what I had in mind at all. And it's been so much better. And, like, that's, like, the most magical thing to me is, like, getting to experience this movie with audiences and, like, hearing them die laughing at, like. Like, I just. I sit in the theater and just like, listen, because it's just the cool. Because I don't know when I'm gonna have this experience again. And I.

Rich Roll (54:05)

And you get to be present.

Michael Strassner (54:07)

Yeah, 100%. And, like, I'm like this kind of creep that, like, kind of sits in the back and. And it's just been like the most magical.

Jay Duplass (54:15)

Well, it's also an incredible lesson in the idea that the worst thing that could happen to you is maybe the best thing that could happen to you. Getting fired from Groundlings, getting rejected by Saturday Night Live. You've said to me several times that a lot of your friends who have gone on to be on Saturday Night Live have said it's the most traumatic experience. Miserable traumatic experience.

Michael Strassner (54:40)

And I want a miserable life so bad. That's what I want to be.

Jay Duplass (54:44)

Take this misery to the max.

Rich Roll (54:46)

But it's a romantic misery.

Jay Duplass (54:48)

It is. But, you know, as. As you get to know people who are on Saturday Night Live, they're just like, almost didn't make it. And you've said several times, like, you really don't think you would have made.

Michael Strassner (54:57)

It if I went there when I was still drinking, I would be dead. Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind, because I would enjoyed the part. I mean, it would have been the party and everything.

Jay Duplass (55:04)

Well, it have ratcheted up what you were already doing at Groundling Sunday Company tenfold. You're on national television, and in your mind, I gotta be high as hell for this to be good. And they're not sleeping. They're not doing any of that stuff.

Rich Roll (55:19)

It's always easy to look through the rearview mirror and say, oh, yeah, these horrible things that happened, or you needed those in order to become the person that you are today. But of course, they're true. Also, these traumatic experiences that create all that suffering are grist for transformation. And on some level, the universe is like, no, you don't get to get that because you're fucked up, dude. And until you snap out of it and start, you know, cleaning yourself, cleaning yourself out, like, you know, we're gonna deprive you of these things because you're not ready for them. You're not prepared for them. I think the thing that gets lost, like, we live in a town where there's a lot of inspirational stories of great artists who were sort of under the belief that, like, drugs and alcohol were required in order for them to, like, share their gift. They get sober and then their careers blossom. Right. But as anybody who's in these rooms knows, the only thing that you are guaranteed for not drinking and using is to be sober. It's not like you do it to get these things, but you're provided with the opportunity to become this more self actualized person. And that puts you in a position to become available for a bigger and more beautiful life. You get the chance to chase your dream because of that, but you're not guaranteed, guarantee the dream 100%.

Michael Strassner (56:46)

I mean, like, I heard other people share their morning routines in those rooms and I stole those morning routines from people. You know, like I get up every day at 4 and I get on my knees, I make a prayer, I do my meditation, I journal, I read a new chapter of a book every day. I go to the gym and exercise and then I work for an hour on my work, whatever that is writing, you know, and then I hit a meeting every single day and that's all before 8:30am and, and all that stuff I feel like is again, the only way I'm allowed to do that is cause I'm sober. And I think like when I put sobriety first, then the rest of the stuff, the cash and prizes don't come. But you're, you can actually work hard and get the things or get the things that you want, the dreams that you want, you go and chase them yourself with, you know, sobriety on your back.

Rich Roll (57:39)

And then the challenge becomes when you get your dream, which you're getting right now, like how do you, how do you maintain, maintain sobriety as your, as your first priority and not suddenly become captured by all the, all the kind of fancy things that are going to be dangled in front of your face now?

Michael Strassner (57:56)

Well, I've got to stay grounded. I got a lot of people without me humble. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I got a lot of people that keep me humble, you know, like I've got a great core group of friends that like, you know, just are there for me. And I also, like, I help out a lot of people by, by offering my time and sponsorship, you know. And you know, I, I personally love when I get a phone call from anyone because it gets me out of my own self and gets me out of like, why am I not going out for that? You know, all the stuff that the industry that I'm in can take up my whole entire day and get me all crazy, you know, instead find a way to be of service, you know, and that can be with my partner, with everybody. But you know, another cool thing is like the movie had like all my family in it. So like they keep me grounded a lot too. And they're like, yeah, you're just from Baltimore, you're Not anything that big, you know, But.

Jay Duplass (58:53)

Although I think their eyes were pretty wide open at south by Southwest.

Rich Roll (58:58)

Yes. Yes. They all come for the.

Michael Strassner (59:00)

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so funny. I'll do this quick story. My. My mom's sitting one seat over from me, and she's in the first five minutes of the movie. She plays Darlene, Brittany's mom, and she's watching, watching. And she comes on screen, and she just goes, oh. And she forgot she was in it.

Jay Duplass (59:19)

She was in it.

Michael Strassner (59:20)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (59:20)

Yeah.

Michael Strassner (59:20)

And I was like, come on, Mom. And then. And then my dad came to another screening, and my dad and my stepmom were so sweet. They came to the Saturday one, and my dad is just in my ear, going, there's Marty, there's Allison, there's. Oh, there's Chris. And I'm like, dad, this is not a private screening. You can't just be saying everybody that you're seeing on the screen. Like. And then it was just so cool because, like. And, like, in all honesty, like, this is what's gonna keep. Like, that whole day on Saturday, we got to do press and do all these things like, that I've never done before, take pictures and, you know, get to do all that. It was. It was a blast. The coolest thing about doing that whole was having my family next to me and, like, watching this movie that we worked so hard on, like, seeing that was like, that's my dreams. Like, my mom's finally seeing her son up there on the big screen. And, like, that's. That keeps me here, you know?

Rich Roll (60:18)

Except for your brother.

Michael Strassner (60:19)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (60:21)

Who. Who wasn't able to make it.

Michael Strassner (60:23)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (60:23)

Which is another big piece in all of this.

Michael Strassner (60:27)

Yeah. Yeah. That was. You know, that was a year into my sobriety. I had a year and two days, and I got a phone call from my dad. Dad. And my dad said, zach is no longer among the living. And, you know, like, I didn't know what to do. So I. I called up my. My sponsor. He came over. He helped me book a flight. I went home, and, like, I put my one year chip in the casket with Zach because he had time in the program to. And I just, like, showed up and be of service, you know, how can I help people there? And it was brutal. You know, like, he was 33. It's like, the same age as, like, you know, Farley and Belushi, and, like. And he really tried at this. And, like, that's the thing is, like, I don't understand why. I get it. And he doesn't and you know, when I came back to la, I went to my meeting and I just like, was the first hand up raised and I just shared. I just went back to Baltimore. I just, you know, had to bury my brother and I went back to my seat and the guy that had his arms wrapped around me was my friend's Zach. And like, that's God to me, you know, that's Zach saying I'm okay up there or wherever he is, you know, Is that. Yeah, it's like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a messed up disease and you know, like it's been riddled in my family. Like my, my, my granddaughter dad died in an accident, a car accident, was drinking and driving, you know, and. But if I can stay sober, then if people that need it in my family, they have someone to call, you know, and I can change the. And it's not. And I, I don't want to have ego involved with like changing the narrative of a family. But like, I just, Just love being sober so much that I, you know.

Rich Roll (62:51)

Well, you could change a living example and that's powerful in interrupting that kind of generational, you know, kind of continuation of this pattern. But there's real beauty and humility in not being like, oh, I got sober and I moved to Hollywood and now I'm doing my thing. Like, the movie is a love letter to Baltimore and to like, these people, like real people are in it. People that, you know, Mostly real people.

Michael Strassner (63:22)

Yeah, my whole family, maybe, because you.

Rich Roll (63:24)

Didn'T have to pay them, but. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was, it gives it a real authenticity, you know, And I think there is a maturity and a humility in your performance because on some level, like, as a comedian, like, there is a flex, like you're gonna do your thing and you've got like your bits and stuff like that, that. But you're never over your skis on it. Like, it's never in a, like, hey, look at me showy way. Like, it's always very, you know, integrated in germane to, you know, character development and plot. And it just felt like a less mature performer given this opportunity would be like, you know, kind of, okay, I'm gonna go, I'm taking it all the way, you know, and there was that sense of like, this guy could probably, you know, push the accelerator on this and he's not doing that.

Michael Strassner (64:16)

That's him.

Rich Roll (64:17)

Yeah. Or he's holding you back from that. He's. He's saving you from that fate.

Michael Strassner (64:23)

Well, he Just kind of like he gave me the best acting note I've ever gotten where it was just like. And it's so such a. He just said, you're enough, like you're great. Like, just stay in it.

Jay Duplass (64:33)

Just be you, just be real. I mean, that's the greatest compliment is, you know, it's. Is that the comedy is germane to the story. Because what I've found over the years, at least for the kinds of movies that I make, is that if I can tell a real honest story and it's dramatic and people are behaving very naturally, the comedy that emanates from that, it lives in the heart. You know what I mean? It's not like brain comedy. I mean. Cause of course a gag is a gag and will always laugh, but. But like when the comedy lives in the heart, it just like resonates and it's additive over time. You know, it just builds over time when you love that person more and more. And I think it works both ways. I think comedy also opens hearts. So it's like a symbiotic relationship. But I mean, Michael trusted me and he's inherently just funny. He's just funny to watch. It's funny to watch him do stuff. And that's what we really did is just created scenarios for him to operate in and for him to be desperate in those scenarios because, you know, you certainly in the first six months of sobriety, have not shed your desperation yet. And if anything, it's at a fever pitch because you don't have the alcohol to mask it. Obviously you're desperate when you're an alcoholic, but, you know, so we were just trying to capture that. And, you know, that's a great compliment. I appreciate that.

Rich Roll (66:04)

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Jay Duplass (69:47)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (69:48)

And that seems to have precipitously dropped off.

Jay Duplass (69:50)

Yeah, I was doing a daily run log. I'm. I mean, so first of all, my dad was a marathoner. I grew up under like, you know, he. He was a marathoner in the late 70s in like the special American heyday of American distance running. I mean, now we're in a bigger heyday, but I was just obsessed with it. I ran in high school, I didn't run in college. I went to University of Texas and it was kind of like one of the few schools that I couldn't run at. But yeah, I kind of came back to running. I mean, I've always run on and off my whole life. But yeah, I was trying to really make a comeback and run every day and I drove my body into the ground, mainly just because as we were talking, I'm a workaholic and, you know, I don't have a lot of wiggle room in my life in general. Like, there's just, you know, being married, I got two kids. You know, I have a partnership with my brother. I'm making a lot of movies. I'm mentoring other people to help help them make movies.

Michael Strassner (70:49)

You got dogs?

Jay Duplass (70:50)

I got two dogs. You know, it's just it. I just got really beat up. And our common friend Alexi Pappas has actually offered to like, coach me. And I was like, I don't know if I can go there yet. You know what I mean?

Rich Roll (71:04)

Because it creates a little bit of a. Accountability.

Jay Duplass (71:07)

There's accountability.

Rich Roll (71:08)

Live up to, right?

Jay Duplass (71:09)

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure I could live up to it, but I do love it. It's like, like it's kind of my church, you know, I mean, right now it's just walking and jogging and, you know, just trying to get out in nature as much as possible. But I did have a lot of people loving just seeing someone run every day. It was a weird. There's nothing super special about it, but I think there was something, you know, accountability wise about it. It's just like you wake up and this one guy is going to run every day, you know, which I did for about six months.

Rich Roll (71:41)

Months.

Jay Duplass (71:41)

And then I was like, honestly, my body just broke down and I didn't have the wherewithal or the time or the energy to get the supports to move through it and to take care of myself as I did it, which is that's what you need to do if you want to run every day.

Rich Roll (71:56)

Well, this is the dilemma for the ambitious, successful person who wants to do all things and is very capable in many ways. But you strike me as somebody who over commits themselves. When you look at your IMDb I thought I had beat on like all your projects and I was like, I haven't heard of 80% of these shows that you executive produce. Like, it's insane.

Jay Duplass (72:21)

Neither am I how many things you're involved with.

Rich Roll (72:23)

So like you live inside a very crowded mind, I would imagine.

Jay Duplass (72:27)

Yeah, I, it definitely like my brother and I, you know, we grew up in the suburbs of New Orleans and we, you know, we, we loved movies growing up. We were obsessed with everything coming down the pipe of hbo. It was like a momentous day. The day that cable came to our neighborhood. We didn't know what it meant. We thought like literally a big cable was gonna be laid across our lawns to bring all these wonderful television shows and movies in particular. But you know, at that time when we were growing up, it was New Orleans. So we basically thought the only way to be an artist was to be like a 60 year old blues black man, you know, touring Europe. We tried to do that. We failed at that. And then, you know, we, we went whole hog into movies. And honestly it felt like, I guess, a little bit like immigrants to film culture. Because, you know, we weren't Coppola kids. We didn't know anybody who made movies. We had no idea how we would access it. We were just, you know, making movies on VHS in the 80s when we were kids. But we had this, this kind of lucky moment where I went to the University of Texas in 1991, and this is when Robert Rodriguez and Richard Linklater each had made a $20,000 feature film. And we didn't have $20,000, but that was an amount of money that we can like get our heads around. Like, oh, that seems doable one day. And, and Rick and Robert were also guys who were walking around Austin, Texas wearing jeans and T shirts and going to coffee shops and talking about movies. And so that's what kind of like birthed this idea that we could come into this world and make films and maybe have a career doing it, but it still felt far away. So this is all just to say that we feel like we don't belong. I know you've had that journey too. It's just like what am I doing here? We feel like we invented this thing that we're doing because we kind of were the first generation of, like, DV filmmakers who, you know, Our first feature film, the puffy chair, was $10,000. I mean, it was, like, shot digitally and literally was the story of our lives in that moment. Very Sean Baker style in that moment, which is like, this is all the money we have, and this is the only story we have to offer, you know, which is just like, our pathetic desperation around wanting to be successful and what it means to be in a relationship in your 20s, which is what that film was about. So, yeah, I, I I've spent a lot of time putting my head down and just, like, not allowing myself to really come up for air. And now that I'm 50, I'm like, okay. How can I turn off that impulse, you know, that desperate instinct to just create and to be successful? Because volume was a big part. Like you were saying, volume was a big part of us finding our way. Because we wanted to be the Coen Brothers. I mean, that's what everybody wanted to be in the early 90s coming up as filmmakers. We failed at that. They're very good at what they do, by the way. Like, don't try to be the Coen Brothers, you know? So it just took us a long time to figure out our style and what we uniquely had to offer. And I'm 52 now, and I'm still having a really hard time turning off that desperate impulse to just continuously make things. And, you know, I mean, I'm. This year has been amazing. I've acted in a bunch of stuff. But literally four months ago, I had no prospects for any work whatsoever. I had no jobs.

Rich Roll (76:31)

That's hard to believe.

Michael Strassner (76:32)

No, it's true.

Rich Roll (76:33)

Truly.

Jay Duplass (76:34)

I had no offers, at least. I mean, there's always possibilities, and I can create stuff for myself, but I had no offers. So, I mean, I was talking to Michael about it, like, four months ago. I was like.

Michael Strassner (76:44)

I was like, you're gonna be fine, bud.

Jay Duplass (76:45)

Don't worry. But I, you know, I had no way. I had no guarantee to make money. So that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now.

Rich Roll (76:54)

A story that works. Like, how do you figure that out? You know? How do you know when the story is working, when it is heartfelt and all of those things? Like, this is, like, a very difficult art form that I think people fail to fully appreciate.

Jay Duplass (77:14)

That's nice. I agree with you. And I think that there is a sort of, like, misperception and that's why there's so much challenge in Hollywood is that, you know, because we all watch movies, we can make movies, but it is an incredibly complex art form. And very specifically, what you're saying, like the. The plot of a movie that's actually going to work. And part of that is a lot of experience and a lot of failure. A lot of failure on my part and making movies that had some fun things and some great scenes and they were funny and stuff, but in the end, it didn't get you there. It didn't really deliver. Something that made you look at life in a whole new way. It's incredibly tall order. That's where I spend most of my time, is just. Just conceiving a movie. You know, conceiving like, what is the structure of a movie? What is the scaffolding that's going to build that's going to pay off when you get there? And then the rest of it is like sobriety. It is constant vigilance and nudges and creating positivity and, you know, jumping off of cliffs when you don't know if there's going to be warm water down there, might be jagged rocks. And. And. And like you guys are saying, like, being an exemplar for everybody else as a director, you know, I think one of the best things that you can do is just like. Is just like shore yourself up with confidence in the morning. Not the kind of confidence that's like fake or whatever, but just that just like, I believe in this movie. I believe in what we're doing. And when you believe in what you're doing and you go forth with love, it creates itself, you know, so it really, really is. Especially on a tiny movie where, you know, you're just kind of wandering around Baltimore and you're part. You're parking a white van.

Rich Roll (79:09)

Were you running and gunning or were you. Did you have permits and stuff like that? I mean, there were scenes where cars are driving and there's no other cars.

Jay Duplass (79:15)

Around, so I assume they whatsoever. Now, the amazing or something. No, I mean, that's one of the. No, no shutting streets. Nothing was shut down. We have a. We have a scene that was filmed on what's called 34th street in Baltimore, which is a Christmas tree avenue where all houses light their houses up and people are just walking around. And we just shot there and we, you know, we did dialogue replacement. We did all kinds of stuff. But the amazing thing about Baltimore is that a permit to shoot on the street for a month is $65.

Rich Roll (79:46)

45.

Jay Duplass (79:47)

45.

Michael Strassner (79:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. $45.

Jay Duplass (79:49)

And I told Mark and my producers back in LA and they were like, $45 a day is incredible. I'm like, 45 total. 45 total for the entire month. So as long as you are not in a street, as long as. So it's a very friendly place to shoot a movie. And that was a big part of it too, is just like being out of la, which people are talking about it a lot right now. LA has become very bloated. It's become very expensive. The permits are expensive. If you want to shoot in a drugstore in LA, it costs like $30,000 because everyone's savvy and so many big things have shot here. So part of the movie was also just going to Baltimore so that we could have summer camp and make a movie, the Download. But I mean, for sure, we were in some questionable neighborhoods at three in the morning. And, you know, I mean, crazy. We did some crazy things. We, we, we had to get a Cadillac from, from, from. From a trailer park where there was.

Michael Strassner (80:46)

And I was like, I'm gonna get J.D. plasse killed right here.

Jay Duplass (80:48)

There were.

Rich Roll (80:49)

Well, it's sort of the meta. The, the meta story to the kind of after hours aspect of this movie. Like, there is a sort of, you know, it all takes place like there's this weird adventure at night and all different. They're encountering all different kinds of people.

Michael Strassner (81:01)

Well, and like, even like, you know, the house at the end of the movie, we had to get like another black door. Like that matched. Well, I don't want to give anything away, but just had to match doors. And I look over this woman kind of coming out of the door, and I look at her door. I was like, okay, that's a black door. And I was like, aj, I'm going to ask this woman if we can use her house for the end shot. And went over and I was like, hey, we're shooting a movie down there. Like, is there any way we could use your front door? And to be the exterior, she was like, yeah, I'm just hanging out all day. Love to help out. So, like, the end of the movie.

Jay Duplass (81:33)

Was just like, it would never happen in la. She was like, rearranging plants on people's stoops for us.

Michael Strassner (81:40)

She hang out with Liz, like the whole afternoon.

Jay Duplass (81:42)

Yeah, like, our lead actress was like.

Michael Strassner (81:44)

Didn'T they got each other's number?

Jay Duplass (81:46)

It was freezing cold. So she was able to. We used her bathroom. I mean, it was just the whole shoot Was an all night adventure in Baltimore. Just like the movie is. It was like, you know, art. Our life mimicking art, actually, you know, it was like a weird cycle.

Michael Strassner (82:03)

And people saying, I mean, that sound corny, but people saying like, yes, and how can I help? And you know, like, that's what I. I mean, I feel like I learned so much about producing from Jay. Was just like, just call, see what they say. You know, the worst thing anyone's gonna say is no. So you might as well just take a shot. And you know, that took a lot of shots. You took a lot of shots.

Rich Roll (82:22)

You mentioned that for you, Baltimore is much more hairspray than the Wire. I mean, you know, John Waters is the ambassador. Ambassador of Baltimore. Like he's. Yeah, like there's no contest here. And he went to a screening.

Michael Strassner (82:35)

Yeah, he was in P town.

Rich Roll (82:36)

Have you met him before?

Michael Strassner (82:37)

First time ever. He's met my niece because my mom used to work at the store limited, which is a old store in Baltimore that shut down this year. But he took a picture with my niece at six months old. So we have a picture of John with the baby and then now me and John. But you know, she, you know, he would come into the store a lot and when I first went out to la, my mom was like, dress up.

Rich Roll (83:00)

Just when he's like walking around.

Michael Strassner (83:01)

Yeah, I want to know what he's.

Jay Duplass (83:02)

Wearing on a Tuesday.

Rich Roll (83:03)

What is a day in the life?

Michael Strassner (83:04)

I mean, very similar, like this jacket. Probably like something like this, like cozy.

Jay Duplass (83:08)

He's not wearing an ascot and like a purple kimono.

Rich Roll (83:11)

He does.

Michael Strassner (83:12)

He did get a scarf for his mom like every year for Christmas there. Like, that's really okay. But my mom being my mom, she was like, you know, my son just moved out to Los Angeles. Do you have any advice for him? He wants to be an actor.

Rich Roll (83:24)

Actor.

Michael Strassner (83:25)

And she go, he goes, yeah, tell him to get another hobby.

Jay Duplass (83:28)

Did you tell him that story when you met him?

Michael Strassner (83:30)

And then he went, I don't know if I said that. And I was like, you did? My mom would not. Yeah, but yeah, he was like, those.

Rich Roll (83:38)

Are the moments, man.

Michael Strassner (83:39)

Well, and he came to the screening and he sat during the Q and A and everything. And he asked a question during the Q and A, which was like, so cool. He was like, how did you film on 34th Street? I've been wanting to shoot there forever. How'd you do it?

Rich Roll (83:52)

It's a technical question.

Jay Duplass (83:54)

Technical question.

Michael Strassner (83:55)

And I was like, we had a permit that we could shoot on the street and it was all good. And he was like, ah, man, I wish I thought of that. And then he asked about the Key Bridge because the Key Bridge is in it. And that's.

Jay Duplass (84:06)

That's the bridge that came down, like, a few months after we shot it.

Michael Strassner (84:09)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (84:10)

Oh, I didn't. I forgot about that.

Michael Strassner (84:11)

Yeah.

Jay Duplass (84:12)

It's wild that we have a sort of iconic. It's sort of our Manhattan Bridge or a Brooklyn Bridge shot as an ode to Baltimore, which is the Key Bridge, which you insisted on getting, even though we were. It was 18 degrees in the middle of the night.

Michael Strassner (84:27)

And I was like, let's get it. Let's get it.

Jay Duplass (84:28)

Got to get this shot.

Michael Strassner (84:29)

And it's the most. And it's one of my favorite shots of the movie because it just looks so beautiful and it's Christmas Eve night, and it's just, like, stunning. And he asked. He was like, how. How early on before, like, how many months ago did you shoot that before it fell? And I was like, two months in December. And he was like, you know, the Wall Street Journal called me asking for comment when the bridge fell, and I was like, what do you want me to say? I've driven on it. I was like, that's great. But, yeah, it's like. It's the coolest thing to, like, have somebody that's a legend of mine growing up and seeing all his movies and, like, him coming to a screening of Baltimore Hounds was like, yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah. Next level.

Rich Roll (85:08)

What are. What are some of your storytelling or filmmaking rules? You know, that. That might be, you know, interesting for the average person who's just a movie watch, you know, when it comes to, like. Because I asked you about, like, what makes a great story or how do you know when you have a great story?

Jay Duplass (85:26)

I mean, my first rule is make movies, not meetings. All the kids that come to me and they want to pick my brain, they're like, how do you get it done? And I'm like, you make movies. And their fear is that they're not ready and that they're going to be bad. And my answer is always, yes, they are. They're going to be bad. And, you know, to dispel the myth that someone wakes up in the morning, they go to the bathroom, and either a great movie comes out or. Or. Or a bad movie comes out. You know, I think it's. It is still relatively a new art form. So, for instance, you know, if you knew. If you had friends who went to art school and were painters in college, like, there's Not a painter in the world that would expect to sell a painting until they've done at least 500, you know what I mean? At least for, like, a decent amount of money, you. Maybe your friend will be nice to you and give you 50 bucks, you know what I mean? But that's a given that as a painter, you're going to paint 500 paintings before you're actually going to be up in a gallery, and people are going to buy your paintings for thousands of dollars, for instance. So, you know, I try to tell people, just make bad art. Make a lot of bad art. I thought I was going to be the Coen Brothers. I thought that's what I wanted to be. It turns out stylistically, I'm the total opposite. I shoot in a documentary style. I work, work with no control. I'm out in the street in Baltimore trying not to get shot while I'm, like, running down the street filming this man, you know? And that had to be. I had to be hit over the head with that. I had to. You know, my sort of origin story for. For finding out what I uniquely had to offer the world was when I was ready to quit, and my brother was like, we're shooting something today, and we got a tiny video camera, and we shot this short film about him trying to perfect the personal greeting of his answering machine and failed to do so and had a nervous breakdown, because that's what happened to me the week before.

Rich Roll (87:20)

For people who aren't intimately familiar with your career, though, what gets missed in that is the fact that, yeah, you didn't become the Coen Brothers. You're of the generation. There's the Soderberg, these rock star directors, and the aspiring director is like, someday and when. And you don't know what your thing is or your style is yet. You're gonna, of course, like, copy the people who inspire you, but by just like, hey, we're shooting today no matter what. You guys are responsible in large part for actually creating an entire new genre called mupplecore. I don't know what your relationship or feelings are about that now, but the Coen brothers can't say that.

Jay Duplass (88:06)

That, yeah, it is odd that we are the godfathers of a filmmaking movement that we didn't make up ourselves. You know, it's we.

Rich Roll (88:18)

But anybody who would create a genre or a movement didn't do so because they were trying to. It was authentic, like sort of out, you know, outgrowth of whatever it was they were doing.

Jay Duplass (88:28)

The press and film professors essentially decide what happened. But, yeah, we were at the very early stages of the first time digital video became good enough to look at to where you could actually broadcast it, you know, and you could actually transfer it to film and it would look decent. So we were. I mean, honestly, it can be. And that. That's a testament to just staying the course. But, like, the moment we made our first decent film was the same time that they came out with this camera called the Panasonic AG DVX100. I still know it to this day, even though that number is ridicul, because it was a revolution for myself and for so many other people. And oddly enough, I mean, we premiered the Puffy Chair at Sundance, but it was, oddly enough, at south by Southwest that four or five other filmmakers just like Mark and me, were there with movies shot on that very same camera. And they were movies that were very specifically about our lives and the stories that we had to offer. You know, no one. One was there with a movie that cost more than $20,000. And the press got a hold of it, and they were like, something is happening. Something is clearly happening here. And, you know, at the time, it felt weird because we were just trying to make a movie that didn't suck, frankly. That's what we were trying to do. But it was incredible at the time because we got written up in the New York Times as part of a movie, and we were being called the Godfathers of the movement because our movie had a lot of legs to it, and that was odd. And now we're in a lot of textbooks. I have a lot of professors calling, and they want to interview us because they're writing something strictly academic, and they want to talk to us about it. So it's very cool. It's very dramatic. But, you know, what's wild about it is, like, you know, I wanted to be the Coen brothers, but I also love John Cassavetes, and I always wanted to. I just thought it would be so cool to be, like, iconic. But as I'm in it, I don't feel that way. I'm still just trying to make a movie that doesn't suck.

Rich Roll (90:47)

They would say the same, I'm sure.

Jay Duplass (90:48)

I think so. I think so. I mean. Because even the greats. I mean, the Coen brothers have some questionable films out there, you know, and it is such a tough form. I know. How dare me. I know. But it is such a difficult form, and I think, you know, you gotta have beginner's mindset. You have to have it, because no matter what movie you're making. You're this close to making a movie that doesn't work. You know, everything has to really come together for something to be beautiful and transcendent and funny and heartfelt and all the things that you want a movie to be.

Rich Roll (91:23)

Has there ever been a movie or a show that you've been involved in or that you were making where there was. There wasn't a moment where you were like, this is a fucking disaster, like this is never gonna work, or that first or whatever, where you're like, there's.

Jay Duplass (91:39)

Never been a moment.

Rich Roll (91:39)

It's never going to come together.

Jay Duplass (91:41)

There's always comes at some point where you're like, oh no. Oh no, this is maybe not gonna work. We had that moment with the Baltimore ons. Our critical scene, which is filmed at a comedy club where Michael and Liz, our two leads, go up on stage and essentially flop and have to figure out how to work their way out of a bad sketch. Essentially that scene, we filmed it. It was our toughest scene. We spent two days and two nights filming that scene. And it didn't work. It did not work. And it wasn't a disaster. Like I would say it made the movie a B. And Michael and I were like, we want an A. We will not. You know. And so we went back to Baltimore in the middle of the summer to refilm that scene. But it took us months to reconceive it and to figure out what that scene really needed to be. It's really the linchpin of the whole movie.

Rich Roll (92:44)

And what was the unlock like? What was the shift that you realized would make it work?

Jay Duplass (92:49)

The unlock, which is a little inside baseball. But when you see the film, you'll know was ultimately that, like, you know, you learn about these movies, tell you what they need as you go along, and the more you can respond, the better. But what we learned is that, you know, Michael's character helped Liz through the most challenging thing she could imagine doing, which was to go to her ex husband's house during Christmas and face everyone so that she could be with her daughter and her granddaughter. And it's just something that was unimaginable to her. And we realized that that scene from Michael was the moment where Liz would be there for him and that them just. Yes. And ing each other and staying on stage, which, you know, during this movie, going back on stage is the thing that he feels like he can't do. That's over. That part of his life is over. So she helps him rediscover, ultimately that he can Be funny, sober and that. And then when it's over, he realizes that it's actually better than it's ever been. So, you know, we. There were some widgets in that scene that were really challenging in terms of, like, originally, he was funny in the scene, but what we realized is that he had to fail and that she needed to show up for him and the way he showed up for her. So that was a tough reshoot. It was like 100 degrees in that. That room in the summer.

Michael Strassner (94:16)

I had to cut all my high school buddies that were in the last scene.

Rich Roll (94:19)

Yeah, it definitely works, but, yeah, the movie pivots on that. Like, he's got to be the guy. Unless he crushes that scene, she's not on board for the whole other part of the movie that follows 100%.

Jay Duplass (94:34)

And it really had to build more. Yeah. And I'm very confident that we would not have won the audience award at south by Southwest if we had not reached shot that tough thing. And it's. You know, it's. It's exp. It was our most expensive scene. You know, we had 30 or 40 extras. I know it sounds tiny, but it's just. It's. It's a lot, you know, and, you know, we. We. We. We did pay. I mean, we paid everyone minimally, but we did pay everybody our SAG minimums. Just because, you know, we want to be, you know, above board. We can't do what we did on Puffy Chair, you know, where you just.

Michael Strassner (95:07)

Your parents were in it, and they.

Jay Duplass (95:09)

Yeah, well, we still did your parents in it, but we did pay them.

Michael Strassner (95:12)

Yes, exactly.

Rich Roll (95:13)

If you were making Puffy Chair today or you were where you were at prior to making that movie, but it's today you guys become YouTubers.

Jay Duplass (95:25)

Oh, yeah, we're YouTubers.

Rich Roll (95:27)

You're like, oh, yeah, you would just be making stuff all the time. This is the ethos. Like, you're just making stuff all the time. Moving forward, moving forward, moving forward. It would have been immediately obvious that YouTube was going to be the place where you were going to tell your story.

Jay Duplass (95:44)

100%, it would be YouTube. And in fact, our agents at CAA have recommended many, many times that we start a YouTube channel. You know, I would watch your.

Rich Roll (95:52)

Whatever, you guys.

Jay Duplass (95:53)

That's really nice. I mean, maybe that will happen one day. But, you know, I think the tricky part, too, is, is that, you know, you know, if you. If you create a YouTube channel and you run a YouTube channel, you become the manager of a television channel or a web channel. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You become.

Rich Roll (96:12)

It's a whole thing.

Jay Duplass (96:13)

It's a whole thing.

Rich Roll (96:14)

And if you're gonna do it.

Jay Duplass (96:16)

Absolutely. And the thing that I think I've realized more than anything about my life is that my childhood dream of being a writer director has never changed. I've flexed and I've accidentally become an actor. And I've had to produce my movies so that they could be made the way that I need them to be made. And then of course, like, I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of up and coming young people and all kinds of different voices and help them do their thing. But I think in like the sort of like back nine of my career, I'm realizing this is what I really want to do, is write and direct films. And so just I want to put all my creative energy into that, you know, because that giving everything you've got in that, there's still no guarantee that you can keep going.

Rich Roll (97:06)

Sure. Michael, I'm curious about your perspective on this. We are in this weird era right now where movies and television are up in the air, movies are dead, people aren't going to the theaters, and yet when you turn on your smart tv, it's just like you just can't believe how much choice you have. And people are saying, oh, there's no jobs, everyone's out of work and everyone la. And then you're like, yeah, but who's making the 7,000 shows that seem to premiere every week across all of these platforms? So it's a bizarre time. The economic model behind all of this, the engine is very much in transition, but because the gatekeepers have been completely removed, at least on platforms like ecosystem, YouTube, you have an entire generation of young people who are just making stuff all the time and they're learning intuitively how to tell a good story or what works or what doesn't. And like you're making these short videos on your social media and all of that, which you have to imagine is going to create a lot of really talented creators who will eventually go on to make feature films or series television or whatever. We're already seeing, seeing some people do that. Who are those Australian brothers directors, those guys, like, who just did the hot new thing. They have that. Don't they have a movie coming out?

Michael Strassner (98:39)

It was out in June.

Rich Roll (98:40)

Oh, no, the.

Michael Strassner (98:41)

It's with what's Her Face.

Rich Roll (98:44)

I know what you're talking about. I haven't seen the movie.

Michael Strassner (98:46)

It was great. It was great.

Jay Duplass (98:47)

And Ava Victor, who has. Sorry, baby. It's the big hit out of Sundance this year, she got a. A24 release. And, you know, she originally was an Instagram influencer who, you know, turns out is an incredible filmmaker.

Rich Roll (99:01)

Yeah, but what we haven't seen is what your. Your agents suggested that you guys do. Like, see, like, legitimate veteran filmmakers, directors who have been in Hollywood forever, go to YouTube and make. Make some interesting, cool stuff.

Jay Duplass (99:19)

We've done it on. On a less extreme scale because, you know, our. Our fourth and fifth movies were Hollywood movies. They were Fox, Searchlight and Paramount movies. They were seven and a half and $10 million, respectively. And at that point in time, we realized, man, we actually enjoy making the little ones better. And they make us just as much money because we own them. Of course, they're big risks. So we kind of. Kind of, like, receded from, like, that Hollywood pathway. The idea is, like, you go to Sundance with a couple of films, and then you start working with Searchlight, and then you start working with. You move up to focus. You know what I mean? It's like a very, very clear path of what a lot of people did, but not really a lot, like, you know, 25 people, because it's a very narrow.

Rich Roll (100:11)

Well, it's just a pipeline to Marvel or dc.

Jay Duplass (100:14)

That's absolutely what it was. And my brother and I definitely got offered some really big crazy stuff that we turned down because we realized, you know, yeah, we were courted by Marvel. We were courted by, like, the Focker franchise. We were courted by, you know, we were offered the dictator to direct. There were a lot of people who were very interested in us, not only because we did good dramatic comedy, but we were known as, like, really good guys who could work with challenging people if need be, you know, because that's a huge part of this franchise. It's a very underrated skill, and nobody thinks about it, but you get in Hollywood and you start hearing about it real fast and, you know, and you feel it, you know, like a lot of these big comedies, for instance, are not about making the best movie. You have a franchise, and your job is not. Of course, they want it to be as funny and as heartfelt as it can be, but your job is actually moving a movie from A to Z over the course of three years without anybody murdering anybody else. You know what I mean? And there are a lot of directors that are known for their person murder. Yeah. And personality management, you know, and that was really tough for Mark and me because, you know, big studios didn't really want to make exactly what we wanted to make. At a higher budget. They wanted to suck us up into their world and use our skills to. To, like, essentially get their franchises made, you know, without murder. And ultimately, we turned away from that because we just did not. You know, we just wanted to make original art. And we had suffered so much and come so far. You know, we were like, let's go back to our little, you know, pond that we swim in.

Rich Roll (102:09)

It's pretty rare that a director could step into that and maintain a singular vision. Like, you know, Ryan Coogler can do it. You know, Christopher Nolan did it. But, you know, there's a lot of people who kind of got chewed up in that whole thing, but, like, the money is giant. It's like, I read something your brother had said. I think it was in a Variety article. It was like, Jay could get offered, you know, $500,000 to be an actor in X, but if this other project that's gonna pay him $150 is just 10% better, he'll do. And then, like, you know, like, how do you prevent yourself from making those compromises especially? It's like, you know, it's expensive to live. You've got kids and all. Even, like, the greatest artists, they'll go out and do the one so that they can, like, put their kids through college or buy their beach house or whatever.

Jay Duplass (103:03)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, honestly, keeping my expenses low, I don't buy stuff. I just don't buy stuff. I just want to make stuff. I think having an aesthetic mentality, which I had to have for my first 10 years of my career, I came up in Austin, Texas, making $15,000 a year because that was what I needed to make to keep doing my thing. But it's also just my temperament. I want to be a part of beautiful, transcendent art. And I have learned that what you do begets what you get. If you make. If you are a part of something incredible, people look to that, and they will hire you on something beautiful, you know, going forward. So I don't know. I mean, it's partially. It's just like, I'm an art nazi, too. I mean, I just, Like, I just. All I want to do is make art, and I want it to be as great as it can be. And, you know, it's. It is challenging at times. And, you know, we live on the east side and we keep our expenses low. And, I mean, that. That's. That's been an interesting part of it, too, because people think. Think that I have way more money than I have because they look at, like, the IMDb situation. I'm like, no, my wealth is in the quality of the stuff that I get to make. You know, And I do make a good living, and I feel good about it.

Michael Strassner (104:24)

At least five figures.

Jay Duplass (104:26)

I mean, but. But for real, like, you know, what happens in Hollywood is you make a lot of money, and people start fishing around if they could maybe sue you. That happens sometimes, too. Like, you know, I can't. I can't mention things that have happened, but people have sniffed around and figured out how much money we actually have, and they're like, oh, what's that?

Rich Roll (104:45)

Your litigation avoidance?

Jay Duplass (104:46)

Yeah, this is why little PSA stay away. There's nothing to get. You know, I mean, but it is. It is a part of the philosophy of just, like, I'm just here to make great art. And that's what allowed me to survive, too, is just, like, doing the volume and just making great stuff.

Rich Roll (105:06)

How do you balance having a singular artistic vision with the fact that it is a collaborative medium? Yeah. And also a medium in which it's important to, you know, take feedback from the right people. I mean, this is like, in anything. Like, you run your decisions by other people before you make them, especially when.

Michael Strassner (105:29)

You'Re early sprite, get engaged. And I was like, okay, I can do it.

Jay Duplass (105:33)

I can.

Rich Roll (105:33)

Early. And often that, like, maybe your idea isn't the best idea. You know, Jay doesn't suffer from that problem, but there is a balance between, like, this is my vision and this is what I'm doing and the fact that there's a lot of other people involved. And sometimes feedback makes the project better. And in this case, you know, the story was a collaborative work between the two of you.

Jay Duplass (105:59)

Yeah.

Michael Strassner (106:00)

I mean, he was. You're the most collaborative person I think I've ever worked with. Like, truly, this man has no ego. And it's like, the craziest thing is, like. Or just an ego that I don't see. You know, like, there were no bad ideas. Like, he was like, yeah, let's throw that in. And, like. And after several drafts of writing, some of that stuff left, you know, and then. But, like, he really does make it. Make it ours. Coming together first, and then it's the cast and crew that, you know, before every single day. Day we get. This is what. I'd never done this. But Jay sets up, like, a lineup where everyone's like. He just is like, anybody want to say anything to start it off?

Jay Duplass (106:39)

Do a prayer circle.

Michael Strassner (106:40)

Yeah. You know, just to get the day going.

Jay Duplass (106:42)

And it's like, well, it's also because, you know that I do that because making a movie feels like war, you know, and you're trying to like put laughs and heartbreak into. Into a war zone. It can't survive, you know, So I try to create, you know, just socially a world where everybody is welcome and everybody, you know, if someone, somebody comes to work and their dog died that day, let's hear it. Because that needs to. It's part of a culture that I really learned with the Transparent, the television show that I was on. But yeah, I mean, wait, what were we talking about?

Michael Strassner (107:17)

Just collaborating.

Jay Duplass (107:18)

Oh, collaborating.

Rich Roll (107:19)

And like having a vision.

Jay Duplass (107:21)

Having a vision. I mean, look, I think this is how I really feel about it is the best movies are made by dictators who are very benign and who include everybody else in the process. And we talked about it earlier, I do believe in serving my audience. And in particular with this story, I believe in serving Michael's story. So the way that I think about it, and maybe this is like tip number two for up and coming filmmakers, is when you start a movie, that movie is 100% yours. Or in this case, it's Michael's and mine. It's his story that I'm telling and we're telling together, and it is a whole 100% ours. And then every step of the way, it becomes a little bit less. You know, we hire a dp, we, we, we hire a producer and their feedback comes in and we include that and it belongs to them now. And then over time, we have a test screening. You have a test screening down here. And now it's, you know, smart people are coming in telling us what's working, what's not working. And at the very end, the movie no longer belongs to us. And if you have done your job right as a Director, it belongs 100% to the audience. So I think the process of making the film is learning how to land this plane in the hearts and minds of audience members because we've already done our thing. You know what I mean? It's just like we've already hugged and cried and laughed and high fived and almost got shot in Baltimore, you know what I mean? And then by the end, if it doesn't belong 100% to a stranger in a dark room that you will never have a conversation with, you're not really doing your job. And I think I had the beginning of my career. I was co directing with my brother, so we didn't have that auteurship. It was already we were in receiving you know, and that's what I, you know, you see something, you know how you feel about it, but you got to talk to somebody else about it too. And that really helped train me. And so when I get on set, it's less about. This is how I wanted it. I want it to be exactly that way. You're not doing what I want. You know, it's more about sitting back as an audience member. And, you know, sometimes it's really comfortable. You have a comfy video village and there's a tent around you. But sometimes you're just standing on a street in Baltimore and there's questionable activity going on in the street and nearby you, and you have a monitor this big, and you have to really get in your mind and be like, I'm in a movie theater in Pasadena in two years. How is this affecting me? And, you know, that's what I let lead me is like, I guess, like being possessed by the audience. That will come. That's the communication. That's what we all forget is this is a communication between Michael and me and strangers in a room that are two or three years away. And that is a weird, long winded thing to do. But the more that you just keep that in mind and you're the first.

Michael Strassner (110:25)

Audience watching on that.

Jay Duplass (110:26)

First audience. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (110:27)

And if you're not entered, like, tained.

Jay Duplass (110:29)

If I'm not entertained, we're going, we got to change it. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (110:32)

You know.

Jay Duplass (110:32)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (110:33)

There's something about that that's curious though, because this open, this sort of openness that you have to have this kind of expansive, you know, relationship with the thing and being able to, you know, kind of imagine what it's going to look like down the road. Um, how does that match up with, like, I think maybe you're kind of an. Prone to obsessiveness. Like, you have obsessions, Right. Like, nobody is doing all these different things unless they, like, get obsessed with something and just like, you know, so it's way too. But those are two different energies, Right? They are like the obsessiveness could make you that dictatorial kind of director.

Jay Duplass (111:11)

Yeah, it's creator destroyer. Yin yang is what it is. And so, so similar to. It belongs to us and now it belongs to the audience. Early is creator, end is destroyer. So in the early days, it's yes and it's yes. And Michael, tell me about this. How did that feel? Why did the belt break Wait. Holiday, wait. There's a mix along the way. Constantly creating, constantly destroying. And in the destruction is. There has to be A ton of love. A ton of love in the destruction and. But, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of times where I was like, we're gonna redo this whole thing on our first day of shooting. I was like, we're lopping off the first 10 pages of the script. How did that feel when I did that?

Michael Strassner (112:06)

I had to take a nap.

Jay Duplass (112:08)

Yeah. Very overwhelming, right?

Michael Strassner (112:09)

Yeah. I was like, let me. And then now looking back on it like that, like that scene, we were trying to do something that didn't need to happen and that we can. And that also we can see later on. We can. You know. But, yeah, I was like, you know, how are we going to do it? Like, that's. We're going to start with that. Okay. You know, it's traumatic.

Jay Duplass (112:30)

The whole process is traumatic. I mean, you know, Mark and I, because we failed so much and because we put movies up that didn't, you know, I got trained early on. It was just like, by any means necessary. This isn't about me. This isn't. Here's the thing, the whole mechanism of filmmaking, everyone wants you to say, we got it and we can move on. Right? That's what everybody wants. That's what the producers want. That's what the assistant director who runs the set wants. They just want you to say that. And if you don't say that, everyone is in pain. Because as fun as making a movie is, it's probably three in the morning. People are understood, slept. You know, people are having a tough.

Michael Strassner (113:12)

Time who have never done this before. And they're like, I thought it was gonna be two hours. What the hell is this?

Jay Duplass (113:17)

Why am I here? You're having personal conversations with extras to convince them to stay. And what Mark and I realized early on is, like, you do not leave until you get it. And if you have to leave when you didn't get it, you're coming back. You're coming back. So there is a lot of critical.

Rich Roll (113:34)

Constant pressure to compromise.

Jay Duplass (113:36)

Constant pressure. That's what people are always like, how do you not compromise? And I'm like, every.

Rich Roll (113:41)

You are compromising. Every decision is a compromise.

Jay Duplass (113:44)

Every decision is a compromise that is 100% correct. And, you know, but ultimately, you're just. It's all about nudges and fighting for the best you can get in that moment. You know, sometimes an actor shows up on set and they're supposed to be super peppy and hosting a party, and they are grumpy as hell. They haven't slept.

Michael Strassner (114:05)

I thought you're not Gonna tell this.

Jay Duplass (114:06)

Story that's not about you. And sometimes you have to re rig a scene to work with what somebody has to offer. And you also have to make sure that it works in the context of the story that you're telling. So it is a tireless job. It is, you know, it's a 16 hour a day job for sure. And that's if you're lucky, you know.

Rich Roll (114:27)

So when you see a clip of an actor losing his shit on the set, it's like important to, you know, remember that and contextualize that 100%. Yeah, like I'm thinking of. And there's that great clip of David Lynch. Have you seen that? Where he's just. Somebody's like, we got to move on time.

Michael Strassner (114:45)

Who gives a about time?

Jay Duplass (114:47)

Who gives a shit about time?

Rich Roll (114:48)

I don't care how long a scene is, it's going to be as long as it's supposed to be. And he's like screaming true.

Michael Strassner (114:53)

And I think like, you know, I don't think, you know, actors sometimes, like we're using all of our emotions, you know, like, so we might not be in the best mood, you know, because we have to do this one thing, you know, that's kind of tough taking that mood from you.

Jay Duplass (115:08)

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is I love actors and whatever they need to do besides abusing other people that gets them to where they need to be, I support it and I love them and I help them along. I mean, 100%, when I hear an actor losing their mind on set, I've experienced it myself as an actor where you're, your body. If you get yourself in a position where somebody's trying to kill you on set, which happens all the time, your body doesn't know the difference. Your body feels like somebody's trying to kill you. And just because somebody said cut and you have two minutes to walk over to craft services and get yourself a bagel doesn't mean that you've shed the feeling that somebody's trying to kill you right over there. And they're right over there. That that's it's real. It's very, very real. And in general, I mean, I feel like part of what this movie is about and part of what making art is about and part of what you're trying to create in the world is like understanding and compassion for whoever is going through whatever they're going through. Because everybody's out here doing their best, you know, and in particular with filmmaking, it's unbelievably challenging. It's unbelievable.

Rich Roll (116:25)

Shocking that anything gets made at all, even when something's good.

Jay Duplass (116:29)

Yeah. When people come onto a set, Michael's family, when they came out of the set, they were like, I can't believe you guys are out here doing this. All the y' all been out here for three weeks in the middle of the night, like trouncing around Baltimore at 4 in the morning. Like, how are you standing? And we're like. Cuz we're idiots and we love what we're doing. But it is, it is astounding.

Michael Strassner (116:48)

My dad came on set at, I think his call time was like 11:30. He's like, you need me there that late? Like, what, like, what are you gonna be doing in Baltimore city that late at night? And I was like, we're shooting a movie, dad. And then he comes and he did a great job, you know?

Jay Duplass (117:00)

Yeah.

Michael Strassner (117:01)

And yeah, I mean, literally every single one of my family members are like, in this movie.

Rich Roll (117:07)

So funny.

Michael Strassner (117:08)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (117:09)

There's a difference between improv. Yes. Anding people and like, you know, pathos and dramatic acting. Like, did you study that also like this. I mean, you've done a bunch of TV and stuff. Like, but this is like, this is.

Michael Strassner (117:24)

The first time I've done something that was like, full on. Like, like getting to do so many different things. Like, I love doing comedy. It's so much fun. But like, you know, my favorite actor is like Philip Seymour Hoffman and he could be a killer in Along Came Polly and make you laugh so hard throughout it and be one of the best actors of all time. Like, and so getting an opportunity to like, have scenes in this movie that are, you know, emotional and dramatic, like, that's what I love doing. Like, I, you know, I went to University of Maryland and studied theater there, which is me. And Larry David came out of there.

Rich Roll (118:07)

That's pretty good.

Michael Strassner (118:07)

Yeah, yeah. And, and Kermit the Frog. Jim Henson.

Jay Duplass (118:10)

All right.

Michael Strassner (118:11)

But yeah, like, I, I, I think, and also, like, with sobriety, like, that shifted a little bit where, like, oh, I don't always have to be the funniest guy in the room. I can just be like, my, I can show up and be the best listener and be in like, you know, the best actor I can be and serve the scene, you know, same way.

Jay Duplass (118:33)

I didn't know whether he could be dramatic or not.

Rich Roll (118:35)

Yeah, you had to be wondering.

Jay Duplass (118:38)

I had a total leap of faith. It was a total leap of, of faith. I just got to know Michael and I was like, he has it. I mean, you know, we'd get together and tell stories and cry, and he was emotionally available. And, yeah, your sobriety was a huge part of it. We never would have made this movie if you weren't sober. It would have been a different story. But also, like, I wouldn't have hired an unknown unsober person to, you know, who was having trouble to put at the front of my movie. But similarly with Liz Larson, lead actress, you know, that was on blind faith. You know, I. I met with her, hadn't worked with her. She.

Rich Roll (119:14)

I'd never seen her in anything before.

Jay Duplass (119:15)

She's a musical theater person. She was starring in Transparent, the musical, and she was stunning and outrageous, and I was like, I don't know. I've never seen you before. I'm going to work with you. And she was like, ah, that sounds funny. And then I called her and we met and she told me her story, which is a big part of the film. And. And I called Michael after. I said, she's it. We're doing it. And we didn't do any chemistry read or anything. I just like, you know, you're just taking the temperature of how people are and what they are like. And I mean, it's probably. You probably have a similar feeling when someone's coming on your podcast, you know, when it's going to be wonderful. And I had that feeling about both of them.

Michael Strassner (119:58)

And getting to work with Liz is like, it made dramatic acting so, like, dramatic acting, but, like, that easy because, like, you just connect with her and it's like you're kind of. You're just lost in the moment. Like, you're just there. And same with Olivia. Truly, like, we got so lucky with.

Rich Roll (120:20)

Olivia plays your fiance.

Jay Duplass (120:21)

Yeah, yeah. Lucardi. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (120:23)

And then my.

Rich Roll (120:24)

Some good moments with her. It's pretty funny when she unleashes on you.

Jay Duplass (120:27)

Oh, my God, she's a killer, man.

Rich Roll (120:29)

She goes full in.

Michael Strassner (120:30)

And then my. My actual fiance is my love interest, daughter, so.

Rich Roll (120:37)

Oh, wow.

Michael Strassner (120:37)

Yeah. So.

Rich Roll (120:38)

Oh, I didn't know that.

Michael Strassner (120:39)

Yeah. And that was like, that was such a fun scene doing that with Brian Mendez and mcat and Jess and my niece Zoe. So Zoe's the little girl in it. And, like, if we don't have everybody being solid actors in that, that's like, you know, it would have been a disaster. And that scene's one of my favorites. Like, you know, and it's all because of. I mean, Brian got hired the day before he came down, and he just did such an amazing job. Like, he's Conway, you know, and when and we keep that wide shot him with the camo pants because like, that's Baltimore.

Jay Duplass (121:12)

Baltimore camo is a man wearing camo pants and a camo shirt in raven's camo colors.

Rich Roll (121:19)

I mean, that's. That's an all time costume that guy's got on. Yeah. Jay, I mean, you've had your own journey with acting. I mean, for many years, you were, you were the guy behind the camera.

Jay Duplass (121:29)

Yeah.

Rich Roll (121:30)

And then I would, you know, see you here and there. I mean, I watched Transparent, some of it, but I didn't watch like all of it. But where. And I told you as much like you really left off the screen in industry, like, that character was unreal, dude.

Jay Duplass (121:43)

Thank you.

Rich Roll (121:44)

I mean, I've seen a lot of, you know, hedge fund types or whatever in television shows and I love that show industry. But you did something like all your own with that character that made it pretty unique and indelible.

Jay Duplass (121:57)

Thank you. Yeah, that. Yeah. I started acting when I was 40 years old. It happened because my friends who were directors, if someone dropped out, they would often hire me. They were like, look, we need a guy to come. You know, Jay's comfortable on set. Set, as I was saying, is a traumatic place to be. Very few people who can really be fully comfortable on set. And I'm not totally comfortable, but I've just been on so many that, you know, you can really just relax into it. And, you know, I would come and do a day player role and I wouldn't try and upsell my role. You know, a lot of day players will come on and be like, what if I said this monologue in addition to saying, what would you like to eat, sir?

Michael Strassner (122:38)

You know, they're definitely going to bring me back.

Jay Duplass (122:39)

Yeah, yeah, I think they're bringing me back. So I just started on accident and eventually it just leveled up and leveled up. And yeah, during COVID I got to go to whales and shoot industry, which is, you know, this BBC HBO show. And I. They offered me the role and I. It was very unusual role for me to play, like a killer, you know, hedge fund guy. But, but speaking of Transparent, Transparent was Amazon's first show and we thought we were making a web show on the place where you buy your toilet paper at the time. And six months later I was at the Golden Globes sitting next to Jeff Bezos, who ran Amazon, who runs Amazon. And I got to know him and I sort of modeled the character on him a little bit. And it was interesting because. Cause I was able to bring a lot to it for, you know, these Brits, you know, they. People who come with a lot of money, you know, don't have to be nice in England as much as in the United States because, you know, money is real old in England. And, you know. But yeah, I was able to sort of bring this. This sort of scrappy, killer vibe to that character. And it was a. It was kind of a big break in my career. It definitely like showed people because, you know, probably prior to that I was people casting me for me.

Rich Roll (124:04)

I was be in some version of a movie that you would make. And it's very familiar. But that, but the industry role was like an extreme departure from that.

Jay Duplass (124:13)

Yeah, I had to. I mean, it was the toughest role I'd ever taken. I mean, that language, it's almost like learning another language when you're speaking hedge fund talk. Because the creators had come from that world. It was very inside baseball. And so you had to know the dialogue so well that you could actually sort of like, intimate the emotional value of what was happening. Because, you know, it's. It's. Even as a viewer, it's hard to keep track of exactly what's happening. Like, it's only because the actors on that show are so good that you can understand it. So that was a. That was a pretty wild show and definitely broke my career open as an actor.

Rich Roll (124:48)

What did you learn from hanging out with Jeff Bezos? Like, what can you share about just.

Michael Strassner (124:54)

A down to earth.

Rich Roll (124:56)

What that hang was like?

Jay Duplass (124:59)

That hang was like. It was an odd experience because everybody. So early Days of Transparent, you're talking about 12 people at a table at the Golden Globes, at the Emmys, at the Peabody's, none of whom had ever been there before. So we're all just showing up, including Jeff Bezos, you know, showing up, trying to figure out what this is and what this means. You know, I do. I mean, very friendly guy, very excited about what we were doing. You know, I mean, it was a huge windfall for. For them to have like their first show do incredibly well. I. The main thing that I remember is he would show up and disappear through odd doors. And we were told that there were helicopters involved. So even at these events, like, you know, Brad Pitt's at the Golden Globes, guys, and Bezos is going in and out of the special treatment.

Rich Roll (126:08)

I mean, you're a nation at that point.

Jay Duplass (126:11)

Yeah, there's a lot of bodyguards, there's a lot of security. There's. I mean, it is. The operation is the only thing that I can liken it to is one of my good friends is grandson of Jimmy Carter. And when he got married, Jimmy Carter came to the wedding. And, like, the wedding was a little bit about my friend John's wedding and mostly about how to get Jimmy Carter in, in and out of a wedding. And, you know, it's a really wild operation to see. The Golden Globes is a wild operation. You know, and obviously, like a target, you know, they are checking under cars with mirrors and wands that can detect things. So just. That operation is huge. And then getting Jeff Bezos into it is totally insane. And then he's just sitting, you know, know, eating cold food like we are and snacking and just, like, wondering what's next. So it was a totally surreal.

Michael Strassner (127:15)

And then his earpiece is like, your submarine's ready. Yeah.

Jay Duplass (127:19)

Just disappears through the floor.

Michael Strassner (127:21)

Yeah, yeah, but.

Rich Roll (127:23)

But no invite to the wedding.

Jay Duplass (127:25)

No, no, no. No invite to the wedding.

Rich Roll (127:27)

Michael, you get invited. I didn't go.

Michael Strassner (127:30)

I think I was on the tier two. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Rich Roll (127:33)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Duplass (127:34)

Which was, I believe, apps. Serving apps.

Michael Strassner (127:37)

Yeah, exactly.

Rich Roll (127:38)

Sure.

Michael Strassner (127:39)

If Carrot Top couldn't go, I'd be there.

Jay Duplass (127:41)

Okay, sounds good.

Rich Roll (127:42)

We were talking a little bit ago about creativity. Getting sober and realizing that not only can you still tap into your creativity, it becomes this, like, you know, kind of rebirth of it. But how do each of you think about creativity now? Like, when you sit down to write, like, you're collaborating on this script, but, you know, writing is still a solitary act, and you kind of have to inhabit a certain state. Are you, you know, a Steven Pressfield court the muse, get your ass in the chair kind of person? Is it a situation where you're dancing around and acting it out? Like, how does it work for you?

Jay Duplass (128:25)

I think Steven Pressfield's book is out, actually the one book on screenwriting that's actually of value. And on creativity, it is just about presence. It's interesting because when you were talking about what it meant to be sober and just becoming present and relying on other people for your sobriety, that is kind of how I think about creativity now is like, it might sound woo, woo, but it is really about. About just trying to be a clear channel for what does God want of me? Or the God or whatever your higher power is, but, like, you know, being of service in terms of, like, you know, what does the world need now? What am I excited about, you know, what is coming through me? Who else can I serve, you know, who can be my co conspirator, Who's a person I want to spend Years with making a movie. Who do I want to hang out with? Who do I love? Who's going to love me when times get hard? It's weirdly, I think, like, it's like kind of creating the thing that we're all missing now, which is the village, which we have moved away from. And we all live in our pods with our computers and if we're lucky, our spouse and our kids, you know, but. But like. And so I think it is. It's all that feeling of, like, you know, trying to create something that matters and that can be given to other people. And the. The older I get, the more that I'm just trying to purify that channel and make it as clean as possible because it's just not about me. And the more that it's about me, the muddier and grosser it feels. Of course, there are. Are things inside of me like, I needed this movie. I needed this movie as much as Michael needed this movie. I was fallow as an artist. I was scared to direct a movie without my brother. I was terrified that I was gonna make a movie and it was gonna suck. And I was gonna be like, oh, he was the special sauce. I didn't wanna be. I didn't wanna be.

Rich Roll (130:38)

So that's the dark secret, like, the insecurity. Like, oh, you know, they'll finally see that it was just all Mark.

Jay Duplass (130:44)

It was all Mark. And Mark is like, I'm. You know, like Mark said, I'm. I'm the guy who'll do the $150 movie. And I'm more inward. And Mark's very outward, much more visible and present. And he's a producer by nature. And, you know, he really likes. He. He, like, he wants to go to south by Southwest and give a talk about all the stuff we talk about. I'm just like. I'm just having enough trouble, you know, pushing this movie through the eye of a needle, you know, So I. We've always been that way, you know, where I'm more inward and he's more outward. And that's been an interesting part of us doing things separately is. Is us having to become whole people again. Because you sort of compartmentalize and you. You know, he got really good at being outward and I got really good at being inward.

Rich Roll (131:34)

So there's been a lot of ink spilled around this, you know, this relationship evolving.

Jay Duplass (131:44)

Yeah. Yes.

Rich Roll (131:46)

Is there anything you want to say about that?

Jay Duplass (131:48)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that, like, Mark and I started as two immigrant kids to Hollywood you know, who were, like, linked arm in arm, like we talked about, and felt like we needed to do everything in lockstep in order to. To make a splash enough to where we wouldn't have to, like, go back to Louisiana, go back to New Orleans. Which is the story, as we know of Hollywood, is like, people move and then they move back. They get sent home, you know, and, you know, as we progressed, you know, I think our first big hiccup is Mark became a famous actor, and all I wanted to do was to be, you know, The Coen Brothers 2.0 with him. And. And that process was very difficult because to get a movie made, you have to obey that movie. That movie is so much bigger than you. And Mark was very unavailable for a long time, and it took me a long time to figure out how to navigate that. I created a TV show called Togetherness, and he was able to star in it, and we were able to work on that together. And over time, it took us a long time to realize that at my heart of hearts, I just wanted to be a filmmaker, writer, director, and Mark didn't really want that. You know, he wanted to be an actor and a producer. But, you know, we're two guys who felt lucky to be here. We didn't want to rock the boat. You know, it was a long, long. It was like a very loving, conscious uncoupling, but it took a really long time. It was like a tough, tough process. You know, I felt like he was leaving me early on, and he felt like I was leaving him later on. And it was kind of like a, you know, getting like a super friendly divorce where we were trying to take care of each other as much as possible, possible. And we're finally at a place now where we run this company together and we still support other people and we support each other in the ways that we can, but it was. It was a long time coming. And, you know, it. It was tough on me. I mean, it definitely the reason why I didn't make a movie for 14 years. And, you know, it took me it. That was what was, you know, super scary about, you know, making a new movie and. And, you know, but, you know, I just tried to keep it small and trust my heart. And luckily, this thing came out to be a dream come true.

Rich Roll (134:24)

So it's so much more than just. This is my first time directing, so much more.

Jay Duplass (134:28)

It's all my worst fears because if.

Rich Roll (134:31)

You could just, you know, get some momentum with this, then it alleviates whatever it does, weird tension and energy. You know, it alleviate tension relationship with your brother.

Jay Duplass (134:42)

Absolutely.

Rich Roll (134:43)

And that's if you're both fully expressed in doing what you're doing, then you can come together.

Jay Duplass (134:48)

Then we can come together and actually be brothers and make art when it makes sense for us to make art together. But no, it was absolutely terrifying. And you know, just. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, the fear is like, yeah, I'm Mark is the special sauce. I can't make anything without him. He doesn't want to make movies with me, so I don't make movies anymore. That's honestly was in the back of my head the whole time, you know.

Rich Roll (135:15)

Well, this was the growth and evolution that you needed. Like, you needed to do this as an artist for yourself.

Jay Duplass (135:23)

I did. I deeply, deeply needed it. And I think similar to how you guys have talked about with aa, like, you know, I had probably seven scripts. They were all more expensive. I hadn't made a movie in 14 years. So people in Hollywood are like, yeah, you're not a filmmaker anymore. You gotta make a movie recently to show them that you're a filmmaker and you're still good. Those movies were more expensive. There were a lot more personal stories about me, which I can tell those stories now. But like, I tried to move a lot of those stories forward. And it was a really tough time with the pandemic and with the strikes and, you know, the timing just didn't work and I just kept retreating, kept retreating, kept retreating. And it felt like it felt negative at first. And then I realized I was coming back to my roots. And you know, how I sort of invented this way of making films which is like using real people and telling their stories and honoring them and, you know, doing it handmade in a small city somewhere or a medium sized city somewhere where no one will bother us. Yeah, where no one will bother us. Exactly. But it was ultimately, I think, just service Michael and his story and knowing that it wasn't about me and then I could really focus on him. That to me, was my personal linchpin because I don't have that thing in me that's just like, oh, my story needs to get out there. This needs to be told. I'd much rather serve somebody else. And once we got into that pipeline, I was like, it just flowed like that.

Rich Roll (136:58)

One of the reasons why I think it's being really well received and we should say, like, we're recording this before it's out in the world. Like, we're talking about film festival audiences. So it's like these people want to like the movie, you know. But all the reviews are like incredibly good right now.

Jay Duplass (137:12)

Yes.

Rich Roll (137:13)

I think it speaks to this yearning that we have for something that feels real and authentic, you know, and the movies are just. They're so big now. They're so, you know, special effected out. And the stories are so, you know, unrelatable. Everything is super sized. So much that. And every character we haven't been served, like we haven't been nourished with. Just like the human story that we can relate to that reminds us that we're human. When we see people that look real and feel real, because they are real people. And they're just having a human problem that they're trying to figure out.

Jay Duplass (137:54)

And there was so much value in like casting Michael. And it's. He's the guy.

Michael Strassner (138:01)

This.

Jay Duplass (138:02)

This essentially happened in spirit. And a lot of these events are true. That was a huge value to me is because I. I was after. Exactly. That is like feeling something that is undeniably real and has value. And, you know, I think there are some good superhero movies out there. But I said this once at a SAG Screen Actors Guild event and I thought it was going to be a lot more controversial than it was. But I don't think people's thinking was. I'm not trying to say I was so advanced, but I just think people were not quite thinking this way. But I think the younger generation is thinking this way. And my idea around it is that our cultural mythology is broken. People talk about this across various medium, but I think it's actually most visible in filmmaking. Because ultimately our cultural mythology in America right now is represented in a superhero movie. And that myth is there's bad people and there's good people. We're the good people. And the bad people are very, very scary. But what we need to do is lift weights and buy more guns and kill all those bad people. And when we do that, everything will be good. And nothing could be more broken. Nothing could be more true in terms of our foreign policy. Nothing, nothing could be more dangerous for this world and where we're going. And I think, I'm not trying to save the world with these tiny little movies. But Joseph Campbell said stories are equipment for living. And it took me a long, long time to understand what that really meant. You said it earlier. It's like a story is a way to change people's minds and change people's culture. I saw it with transparent, no tolerance for trans people. And suddenly people were watching this show and there was a trans person in Their living room, and they were laughing and enjoying them and watching them operate in the world. And so to be able to contribute to our cultural mythology and to tell stories about people who are trying to recover and two steps forward, one step backwards, and making us laugh and falling in love and getting their hearts broken and. And frankly, using Michael's journey and the courage that he displayed to recover and to stay sober, that is additive to our culture, and it's additive to your Saturday night when you're like, boy, that was a tough week. Because I think the superhero movies feel really good in the moment, and then you go home, and they just feel so far away. They're not really nourishing the soul in a way that starts stories can.

Michael Strassner (140:53)

I think you're not leaving talking about it. You're just like, oh, yeah, that was good, right? You know. Yeah, yeah. And I think the best thing about our movie is that, like, there's conversation after, you know, like, when we did test screenings, like, you know, the. Like, Jay would ask a question, and the audience was, like, split, and he's like, we have a movie now. Because now that audience can go and talk about, well, I saw it as this. Did you see it as that? You know, and I don't know. I just personally, like. I like seeing movies that have flawed characters that are trying to kind of do their best in their everyday life, but still mess up, you know, like, my guy is by no means. No one's perfect. And that's the whole thing that I think we need to. Because I think so much of the superhero movies, these people are perfect, you know, or, you know, or they have.

Jay Duplass (141:47)

Flaws in very, like, simple ways that just, you know, it just feels like a token flaw.

Rich Roll (141:53)

I mean, I think it's very astute. This actually came up on the podcast I was doing yesterday with this, like, Jungian psychotherapist, and he was talking about, you know, how modern culture has been, you know, drained of a shared mythology, and we've outsourced it to, you know, basically the superhero movies that we see. And these are the stories that. That create our kind of sense of meaning in the world, which is really fascinating, but obviously makes sense when we become more secular and that we don't have the kind of community gathering spots and the spiritual institutions and churches and things like that. What are we gathering around? Well, we're gathering around the cinema and these ideas that we're all kind of collectively absorbing simultaneously. But for the filmmaker who does want to speak to the human condition, given the business model of Hollywood, Right now, they have to do it within the context of a superhero story. And there are good versions of that and not so good ones. So when I think about that, I think about what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor, which I think is just some of the most exceptional storytelling.

Michael Strassner (143:04)

Michael Clayton is like one of the best movies ever.

Rich Roll (143:06)

It's my favorite movie.

Michael Strassner (143:07)

Same watch.

Rich Roll (143:08)

I literally watch it every three months. Yes.

Michael Strassner (143:11)

Brilliant.

Jay Duplass (143:11)

It's like reading the Bible.

Rich Roll (143:12)

I mean, that guy actually.

Michael Strassner (143:13)

I actually saw a clip of Clooney the other day. He was talking about that last scene where he's driving in the car. And they're like, it's some of your best acting ever. Like, what? Like, how are you doing this? I saw that and. And he was like, well, to be honest with you, I. We didn't know what we were doing. This was like the last shot. And Tony was just like, yeah, just go in the car and just ask to go somewhere. And everybody on the street in New York is yelling, clooney. Clooney. George.

Jay Duplass (143:37)

While that sacred moment was happening.

Rich Roll (143:39)

He's just trying not to laugh the whole time. But it's this incredible. For people who haven't seen it, it's this, like, very long shot. He's in the back of a cab, and it's just driving. This is the end of the movie, which is like the quintessential like. And like, this is how movies in the 70s ended. You know, it's definitely like a shout out to that. It's very effective. But then you hear like, oh, this is. Well, now, like, when you make a movie, what you were saying, like, I'm on a street in Baltimore. It's like 2am and there's a drug deal going on around the corner and the cops are about to come and all that kind of stuff. The reality of that. But Kathleen Kennedy should put Tony Gilroy in charge of anything having to do with Star wars for years and years and years, as long as he's willing to do it. And he should make every decision regarding it. Yeah, love. Let's end this with a little insight or inspiration for the aspiring artists. I think there's one thing that both of you guys share, which is that both of you are people who, pretty early in life had a good sense of what you wanted to do. And I think that's unusual, that's rare. Not everybody feels that way, but I think everybody has some kind of creative inspiration they want to give, voiced some idea that they have in any number of ways. And society doesn't do A very good job of encouraging that. So how would you give words to that person who's, I mean, it sounds.

Michael Strassner (145:10)

Cliche, but, like, don't give up, you know, like, I had similar to you, like, so many jobs that, like, didn't go my way, you know, over and over and over again, testing for shows, doing stuff, stuff. And I'm like, like, why am I still doing it? Like, you know, that thought of, like, is it time to go back to Baltimore? Is it time to call it? You know, and it just takes one person in the field of Hollywood to be. Yes. And then I think Jay even said it to me once, like, Hollywood loves being the second. Yes. You know, and, you know, like, just do, do whatever you, like, fail, fail over and over and over again, get back up, fail, fail some more. But just, like, know that, like, no matter what, like, if this is what you really want to do for your life, anything in the creative field, just do it and not worry about what other people are telling you to do or not do, you know, And I, I, I would be remiss if I didn't. Since we mentioned Zachary Zach earlier, you know, my siblings and my cousin started a foundation in his name, ZTP foundation, that helps out people in Zach's age range in Maryland to, to basically, like, sponsor them to go to rehab. And so that's cool. Yeah. And I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before because, because, you know, like, especially with sobriety too, like, you know, the term keep coming back, but also, like, just stay, because, like.

Rich Roll (146:53)

Don'T leave before the miracle.

Michael Strassner (146:55)

Yeah, yeah, don't leave before the miracle. Because right now I am living, like, the most miraculous Life, and it's 100% due to my sobriety. And I'm so grateful, like, every day, you know, that, like, that, that this little tiny movie about my life based on my life and made in my hometown with family and friends and with somebody that took a chance on me. It can happen. You know, it really can. And it's. And I'm living proof. And I just am so happy. I absolutely love my life today, and I was this close to missing it all.

Jay Duplass (147:39)

Well, I can't top that.

Rich Roll (147:41)

That's pretty good. That's pretty good.

Jay Duplass (147:43)

That's a good one. That's a pretty good one.

Michael Strassner (147:45)

You, I mean, you can definitely top it. You're like, oh, yeah.

Jay Duplass (147:49)

I mean, I guess the extra piece of advice I would give for upand cominging filmmakers and artists, everyone is a little bit of a riff on the perfect day, which I know you're a huge fan of and it's, you know, it's, I call it making good days. And I feel like my job is just to make the best day I can make on any given day. And I, I do a lot of thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow, the night before. If something doesn't feel right or if I feel too overloaded, I'll try and slide something to later in the week. And it's specifically with art making, it really comes down to are you going to be making art tomorrow? Are you going to do it? Because like I said, a lot of people like to talk about making art and they don't make art. It's also way easier to talk about making art. Making art involves fail, repeat, fail, repeat. So the other thing that's really tricky and there's no judgment on, but a lot of people want to have made art. They want to be at the Oscars, they want to be at the Golden Globes, whatever it may be. And I'll just put it out here this way is the real artists, most of them don't want to be at those events. They would rather be at home continuing to make their art. So in terms of merging those things, in terms of making a really good day and making your art, even at this point in my life, I find it hard to carve out two or three hours to make art on a Tuesday. I have to really be concerted about it because you know, people are banging on your door to do everything in this world to pay bills, to, you know, to move your damn car, to whatever it is that's going on. People are always banging on your door to do stuff and it's never to make an original, you know, earth shaking, earth shattering piece of art. You know, no one is doing that. That is up to you to do.

Rich Roll (149:56)

There's too many emails from your kids school that you have to read.

Jay Duplass (149:59)

How do people do it?

Rich Roll (150:00)

I don't know. That could be a full time job.

Jay Duplass (150:02)

Full time job is answering your kids school's emails and attending their events and doing fundraising for your kids school.

Michael Strassner (150:09)

But you're happy you had them and you love.

Jay Duplass (150:11)

Absolutely 100%. As one of my friends said, having children is 51% worth it. But yeah, I, I really do believe, believe that, you know, and, and really be honest with yourself. It's like how much art do you want to make in a day? You know, and really tuning in because the, the more that I go, it really is, it's less about making art and more just about Me being true to myself and just witnessing how much art is going to come out of that, because I'm not really interested anymore in forcing art because that creates collapse. You know, like, overworking creates collapse. And of course, we have to feed our families and we have to do all the things that we need to do. But, I mean, to me, ultimately, it comes down to tuning into who you are and listening, and that's what's going to tell you what you uniquely have to offer the world. Because like you said, we all have our heroes, and we want to be like them, but sometimes we're not like them ultimately, or what we uniquely have to offer is not what they have to offer. Tuning into that thing is not what's taught in film school. It's not taught in our culture. That's why your podcast is so incredible, is it helps me tune in to what I'm doing and why I'm here and what gives me life. So I think that's the best piece of advice I can give to anyone. Artist.

Rich Roll (151:41)

It's pretty good advice, don't you think?

Michael Strassner (151:43)

Yeah. I mean, he's the killer. He knows what he's doing.

Rich Roll (151:46)

Yeah, it's about. It's about, you know, integrity with self. Like, integrating who you are. Like, your art is an expression of your authentic voice. You're not out there to, like, get invited to a party or be validated for it. Like, the reward is the work, which is a reflection of the inner self.

Michael Strassner (152:10)

And I. And I've been to those. Been to those parties where, like, I wasn't, you know, sober, and we would be writing the biggest screenplay ever.

Rich Roll (152:18)

Yeah.

Michael Strassner (152:18)

You know, midway through the night, you know, doing all this, like, all that stuff. We never talked about that screenplay again. You know, it's like doing the work and actually.

Rich Roll (152:28)

Yeah. Because the. The people who are. Who are actually doing the thing are not at the parties because they're doing the thing.

Jay Duplass (152:33)

And.

Rich Roll (152:34)

And they're probably invited and they choose not to go because, like, they're more compelled by, you know, the pull, the yearn to, like, express themselves. And, you know, time's precious, and if you're doing that at a high level, there are people pulling on you all the time and tempting you with, you know, all kinds of delicious offers to go here, do this or that.

Jay Duplass (152:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich Roll (152:57)

Speaking of which, like, the movie's not out yet, but is your phone ringing? Are you getting. Is this, like. Is there, like, you know, a little bit of, like, activity going on?

Michael Strassner (153:06)

There's a little way.

Rich Roll (153:07)

There wasn't before there's a little bit.

Michael Strassner (153:08)

Of stuff happening, but not, you know, nothing. Nothing crazy yet. The movie hasn't come out yet, but I'm sure I just want.

Rich Roll (153:15)

I want it to come out. I want it to be super successful. And all I want for you is to like go back to Baltimore and just walk down the street and have like. And you can be like Clooney in the back of the cab with like the. Yeah, that's straight like hometown hero, you know?

Michael Strassner (153:30)

Yeah, that would be.

Jay Duplass (153:32)

We are having a huge premiere in Baltimore. Oh, you are the classic theater there.

Michael Strassner (153:36)

Yes, the Senator Theater on September 10th, I believe. And yeah, it's doing anything here in LA.

Jay Duplass (153:44)

Yeah, we're going to have a few events here. We're going to show some show advance. We'll. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (153:50)

Get anything out of it, of course.

Jay Duplass (153:52)

If you want to see it again. Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna have premieres in New York. We're gonna. Michael and I are gonna do an old school road show where we go to like 10 or 12 cities. We're gonna do press, we're gonna introduce movies, we're gonna really personalize the experience.

Rich Roll (154:08)

Like, that's like a. That's like a Kevin Smith vibe.

Jay Duplass (154:10)

It is. Yeah.

Michael Strassner (154:11)

We're gonna go like Boston, Chicago, Austin, Houston, Baltimore, Nashville, Nashville, Seattle and New.

Jay Duplass (154:19)

York and they're gonna fly us around and we're going to like go and be there in person and you know, Michael's going to cry on stage after and say he's glad to be alive.

Michael Strassner (154:26)

Yeah, I'm super vulnerable. And we got to thank IFC for all that.

Jay Duplass (154:29)

Yeah, IFC and Sapan films.

Michael Strassner (154:31)

Yes. Really have been. Josh has been incredible.

Rich Roll (154:33)

Yeah. Well, you guys did an amazing job. It's a really beautiful movie.

Jay Duplass (154:38)

Thank you for having us.

Michael Strassner (154:39)

Thank you.

Jay Duplass (154:39)

Thank you for supporting us.

Rich Roll (154:41)

Yeah, thanks for spending a couple hours with me, man.

Jay Duplass (154:44)

This was the dream come true for me. My favorite show. Are you about talking.

Rich Roll (154:48)

Talking about I want to just host like a movies podcast, you know, like.

Jay Duplass (154:52)

You could do that. You could do that.

Rich Roll (154:55)

Anyway, appreciate you guys.

Jay Duplass (154:57)

Thank you.

Rich Roll (154:58)

Yeah, thanks so much for doing this and thank you. Thanks.

Michael Strassner (155:01)

Thank you.

Rich Roll (155:05)

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast. The easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show, show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter which you can can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director Dan Drake, content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapp Harper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.