Modern Manhood: A Compilation On Redefining Masculinity, True Strength & Igniting Purpose, Community & Vulnerability In Men

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rich Roll Podcast

Episode: Modern Manhood: A Compilation On Redefining Masculinity, True Strength & Igniting Purpose, Community & Vulnerability in Men

Date: November 6, 2025
Host: Rich Roll
Guests: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Scott Galloway, Jonathan Haidt, Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price), John Pearson, Terry Crews, Toby Morse

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Episode Overview

This masterclass episode assembles leading thinkers—athletes, psychologists, authors, academics, and artists—to deconstruct and redefine what it means to be a man today. Rich Roll leads a deeply honest exploration into modern masculinity, covering themes of strength (mental, emotional, and physical), the need for community and mentorship, the challenges posed by isolation and technology, the crisis of meaning and initiation, and the potential power of vulnerability. Through expert voices and personal stories, listeners are encouraged to question inherited scripts about manhood and consider new models rooted in connection, resilience, and purpose.

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Key Topics & Discussion Highlights

1. The Masculinity Crisis and Its Roots

• Opening insight (Arnold Schwarzenegger, 00:02):
  "We need to get ballsier we need to get tougher we got to face adversity don't shy away from any of that because it just makes you stronger."
• Male Role Models and Social Deprivation (Scott Galloway, Jonathan Haidt):
  • Losing male role models is a "singular point of failure" in a young man's life. (Scott Galloway, 00:10, 07:39)
  • Boys, compared to girls, are suffering disproportionately from issues like suicide, partly due to dwindling supportive relationships. (Jonathan Haidt, 00:15)
• Loneliness Epidemic (Depth Psychologist, 00:22):
  “Men right now have fifty percent less friends than we did twenty years ago.”
• Disintegration of Community (Rich Roll, 17:33):
  Traditional structures—mentoring, community centers, sports—have faded, leaving many men isolated and without a productive rites-of-passage.

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2. Economic, Social, and Psychological Pressures on Men

• Hyper-competitive Economy (Scott Galloway, 04:51):
  • Top 10% experiences unprecedented opportunity, but 90% of boys are not in this category and are at risk of being left behind.
  • "America is about...giving everyone in the bottom ninety a shot to be in the top ten percent." (Scott Galloway, 04:51)
• Mother's Influence and the Importance of Men in Boys’ Lives (Scott Galloway, 07:19):
  • Emotional investment from mothers is formative.
  • Boys lacking male role models have higher risks: incarceration, addiction, dropping out.
  • Emphasizes need for non-parental male mentorship, e.g. coaches, teachers (even as society grows wary).
  • "Just because you say it's really important that a boy have a man involved in his life that's in no way diminishing the superheroes that are single mothers."
• Wealth Imbalance & Social Mobility:
  • Wealth is transferring from young to old, squeezing opportunity (11:36).
  • The strength of the American middle class was built on investing in men—historically after WWII—and that same investment is absent today.

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3. The Disappearance of Initiation & Meaningful Rites of Passage

• Initiation and Community Loss (Depth Psychologist, 18:07):
  • Modern culture often fails to initiate boys, leaving them “untethered.”
  • “The statistic that really came out…is that men right now have fifty percent less friends than we did twenty years ago…that’s the most important because I think it’s the catalyst for all the others.”
• Importance of Meaningful Rites & Belonging:
  • Ancient and tribal societies mark transition to manhood with community-supported tests and rituals.
  • Modern equivalents are weak (fraternities, first drink, first car) and lack guidance of elders (26:46).
  • "We are warriors that don’t have a war and don’t have a process to…work through your own impulses, your own tendencies, your own hedonism…"

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4. Vulnerability, Community, and the Power of Being Seen

• Building Male Community (John Pearson, 43:41):
  • The need for men to be vulnerable, share, and create supportive spaces is critical.
  • "When you build community, and especially of men, I think that's a really powerful thing."
• The Taboo of Vulnerability:
  • Some men, especially from older generations, are conditioned to “man up” and push feelings down, with potential for harm (48:07).
  • Consistency and mentorship—"if you're mentoring someone, you're in it for life" (50:39).
• Personal Evolution and Mentorship (John Pearson):
  • Creating cross-generational circles for wisdom-sharing is vital for growth and resilience.

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5. Reframing Strength, Adversity, and Victimhood

• Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Stoicism (32:56):
  • Faces the past with gratitude, not resentment.
  • Power comes from resilience, discipline, and reframing hardship as a tool for growth:
    “You have to work on yourself…We need to get stronger…adversity breeds character, strength and fighting…” (36:58)
  • Recognizes the need to tailor discipline and love to the individual, not applying a "one size fits all."
  • “The mind is just like the body…even within my family, one of my daughters had to be approached differently…”
• Terry Crews on Armor & Hidden Lives (56:18):
  • Grew up having to “shield” his sensitive, creative side with a tough exterior:
    "I always knew that I was…weird…people were always…you weird man…I would fake it…mirror people so that they wouldn't be suspicious.”
  • All men have “two lives”—a secret inner world and a public persona. (59:45)

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6. The Impact of Technology & Social Media on Boys

• Jonathan Haidt on the Digital Age & Loneliness (65:58):
  • Overprotection in physical life, underprotection online; kids lose independence and social skills.
  • Foundational harms for youth: social deprivation, sleep deprivation, cognitive fragmentation, addiction.
  • “For teenagers...they were already socially distancing so fast since 2012 that COVID didn't even speed it up.” (73:15)
  • Loss of community time and self-supervision is leading to anxiety, depression, and disconnection.

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7. Healthy Fatherhood, Parenting & Modeling Authenticity

• Toby Morse’s Parenting Wisdom (77:55):
  • Open communication key to raising a self-assured son after growing up without a father.
  • Prioritizes time, unconditional love, and supporting his son’s passions.
  • “I didn't grow up with a dad so everything was new to me…unconditional love…open relationship…”
  • Community—exposure to diverse cultures, music, and people—enriches a child’s resilience and empathy.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Scott Galloway:
  "It's interesting because we have the second most single-parent homes in the world…boys once they lose a male role model immediately become dramatically more likely to be incarcerated, dramatically less likely to graduate from high school, dramatically more likely to suffer from addiction…what it ends up is that while boys are physically stronger, they're emotionally and mentally much weaker." (07:39)
• Depth Psychologist:
  "Men right now have fifty percent less friends than we did twenty years ago…and I could give you statistics all day long about suffering of men but to me that's the most important because…I think it's the catalyst for all the others." (18:07)
• Arnold Schwarzenegger:
  "Adversity breeds character, strength, and fighting, and resistance does not only make the muscle grow but it makes also your head grow…we have to be willing to go through hardship through suffering through pain through crying periods all of that stuff…” (36:58)
• Terry Crews:
  "All men have two lives—the secret life that they hide from everybody else and then the way that they show up in the world." (59:45)
• John Pearson:
  "When you build community, and especially of men, I think that's a really powerful thing…to be listened and to be heard is a really powerful thing, and especially in a circle of men who are trying to do the right thing." (43:41)
• Jonathan Haidt:
  "For teenagers…they were already socially distancing so fast since 2012 that COVID didn’t even speed it up." (73:15)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment & Key Insight | | ------- | -------------------------------------------------------------- | | 00:02 | Arnold Schwarzenegger on toughness and adversity | | 04:51 | Scott Galloway on economic pressures, opportunity gap | | 07:16 | The foundational role of the mother and male mentorship | | 11:36 | Solutions: vocational training, starting boys a year late | | 17:33 | Rich and Depth Psychologist on community loss & base needs | | 18:07 | Importance of connection, epidemic of male loneliness | | 26:46 | The void of rites of passage in modern culture | | 32:56 | Arnold Schwarzenegger on reframing the past and adversity | | 43:41 | John Pearson on community and vulnerability among men | | 56:18 | Terry Crews on hiding oneself and modeling | | 65:58 | Jonathan Haidt on digital social deprivation | | 73:15 | Haidt: kids’ socializing time plunged before COVID | | 77:55 | Toby Morse on fathering, communication, and presence |

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Takeaways & Actionable Insights

• Mentorship & Community:
  Building networks of committed, healthy male mentors is key. Inviting men into boys’ lives—beyond the family—helps address emotional deficits and social learning gaps.
• Rites of Passage:
  We need to reinvest in meaningful, community-sanctioned transitions to adulthood—and not rely on superficial or commercial substitutes.
• Vulnerability:
  Cultivating spaces where men can open up about struggles is critical. Vulnerability is strength; shame and secrecy fuel dysfunction.
• Resilience, Not Victimhood:
  Adversity, when transformed by self-work and perspective, can be a source of pride and power.
• Healthy Tech Boundaries:
  Real-life connections are foundational; tech use must be monitored to prevent an epidemic of loneliness and distraction.
• Parent with Openness:
  Being emotionally available and fostering dialogue helps boys develop self-confidence and emotional literacy.

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Memorable Moments

• Schwarzenegger’s story of burning his daughter’s shoes—a quirky example of tough love and lasting impact (36:58).
• Terry Crews reflecting on his “double life” and the informal mentorship pacts forged with friends out of necessity (60:18).
• The “granddaddy elephants” metaphor (Depth Psychologist, 18:07)—elders restoring order and modeling healthy initiation.
• Jonathan Haidt’s stark observation: even before the pandemic, teens had socially isolated themselves to a stunning degree (73:15).

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Conclusion

This episode is a multi-perspective call to reimagine modern manhood. The guests—spanning public figures, academics, artists, and psychologists—agree: rethinking masculinity is less about reclaiming lost power and more about nurturing connection, purpose, authentic strength, and community. From mentorship, to initiation, to vulnerability and love, this compelling dialogue offers both reflection and a practical blueprint for the future of healthy masculinity.

For full conversations and further resources visit richroll.com.

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Episode Guests: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Scott Galloway, Jonathan Haidt, John Pearson, Toby Morse, Terry Crews, Depth Psychologist (likely Dr. John Price)

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(For reference, key moments and quotes are annotated with timestamps for deeper exploration.)

Transcript

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

We need to get ballsier we need to get tougher we got to face adversity don't shy away from any of that because it just makes you stronger.

[Scott Galloway]

If you look at the singular point of failure in a young man's life it's when he loses a male role.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Model the thinking about suicide is different in boys and girls and suicide is especially a plague that is destroying boys.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

Men right now have fifty percent less friends than we did twenty years ago.

[John Pearson]

When you build community and especially of men i think that's a really powerful.

[Rich Roll]

Where are the mentors where are the healthy masculine men who are helping to guide the next generation hey everybody welcome to the podcast what does it mean to model healthy masculinity and how do we model a healthy masculinity for the next generation of young men today we're going to talk about strength we're going to talk about power but not the physical kind the mental and emotional kind it's a conversation about masculinity both toxic and healthy this conversation is pure gold and it's coming right up but first we're brought to you today by seed i have hosted so many microbiome experts on the show show over the years and the more i learn about this very complex aspect of our physiology the more fascinating it becomes to me but there is one thing that is simple a happy gut is the foundation for a happy body and a happy life and to get there requires care requires intention it requires a daily gut health promoting ritual that for me begins with seeds dso one two in one probiotic and prebiotic formulated with twenty four strains that are clinically studied and proven to survive the digestive journey it's been shown to increase good gut bacteria by four hundred percent but it goes beyond just the gut tso one supports your whole body it's formulated to reduce abdominal bloating and intermittent constipation in as little as two weeks and i can attest to noticing personal improvements in my digestion in my energy levels and overall gut comfort so go to seed dot com richroll and use the code richroll twenty for twenty percent off your first month of dso one after hosting more than nine hundred episodes of this podcast i have noticed a pattern and that pattern is that the highest performers don't buy into the latest trendy hacks instead they obsess on what actually works which is always the unassuming basics and there is nothing more basic than hydration your body can't hold on to water without the right minerals without them water is just like this temporary visitor but element has cracked the code on this which is why i've been using it religiously for years zero sugar no artificial junk just sodium potassium and magnesium in the ratio they work and look i'm not exactly crushing ultras right now healing from this surgery but in some ways i need it even more in order order to properly recover i need to treat my body even better than ever so it can heal properly and expeditiously while also maintaining my focus and my energy levels all of these podcasts write a book be a husband and a dad and i gotta say element keeps my brain firing in a way that water alone can't their new sample pack features their most popular flavors citrus salt raspberry salt watermelon salt that's my favorite and orange salt eight perfect for finding your favorite or sharing with a friend get a free eight count sample pack of elements most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt dot com richroll find your favorite element flavor or share it with a friend beneath countless problems in our society lies a sleeping giant and that is the crisis of masculinity to shed light on this critical issue and offer a fresh perspective we welcome scott galloway to the podcast scott is a professor he's an entrepreneur and an influential voice on technology and modern culture and he really brought his trademark insight and wit to this discussion about the challenges facing young men today.

[Scott Galloway]

If you have your shit together as a young man and you have the discipline to get the right certification the graduates of my class at stern i teach the mba their average salary is two hundred twelve thousand dollars they go on a dating app they're going to get a ton of attention their opportunities have never been more exceptional their vacations their ability to take care of their parents at a young age their economic opportunity their chance to make millions is within reach by the time they're thirty those opportunities did not exist for our parents so it's become sort of a winner take most environment so it's great to be in the top ten percent but i can proved all of us that ninety percent of our sons are not in the top ten percent and when you think about it goes back to me like what is america supposed to be and the reason i've got involved here i was in that bottom ninety i was probably in that bottom fifty is america about identifying the remarkable or identifying the children of rich people and turning them into billionaires is that what america is supposed to do my view is america is about identifying or giving everyone in the bottom ninety a shot to be in the top ten percent that's how it was when i grew up i was unremarkable i think that when i look.

[Rich Roll]

At you i see somebody i mean you're clearly passionate about this this is a very mission based service oriented kind of endeavor that you found yourself in and you're somebody who's had many successes in different areas of life you have economic independence you could choose to be doing lots of different things and you've chosen through all of the ways that you show up publicly in prof g media and the podcasting et cetera to really focus your advoc around this and it strikes me as very earnest and heartfelt like this really is a mission that you're passionate about i don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

That much about you rich but i was that guy you know i didn't have a lot of money no no romantic prospects but need a minute america loved me right free education remarkable institution great job a chance to you know get economically viable chance to take care of my mother i would have been one of those guys today angry upset so i relate yeah your mother was.

[Rich Roll]

An integral figure in all of this.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah look the reason i'm here with you now it's easy to credit your grit and your character for your success and blame the market for your failures i get to come here and i get to bomb out of here and go to the beverly hills hotel and have like a you know do whatever the fuck i want and you know have an incredible life because of one the generosity and vision of california taxpayers and the regency university of california who said our job is to give unremarkable kids a remarkable opportunity being born at the right place at the right time and the unconditional love of my mother right single immigrant mother lived and died a secretary but you know every day told me that i was wonderful and i think that stuck with me but yeah like i don't know what your relationship was like with your parents but if you think about investing there's some basics right you invest a little bit of money compound interest is just this remarkable thing most people feel that the singular relationship in their life if they're asked to identify the singular relationship in their life they usually more often than not number one is their mother and it's because she made those tiny little investments in you every day waking you up with a soft voice worried about you could hear you get up when you were a kid and come in and comfort you every day just dozens of little investments and you know your mom wakes up and you wake up when you're older regardless of whether you don't get along maybe you don't even like each other but it's a singular relationship and you know i think a lot about the relationship how powerful it was for me and what was really wonderful about my mom she had the foresight to get a lot of men involved in my life because if you look at the single point of failure in a young man's life it's when he loses a male role model and it's interesting because we have the second most single parent homes in the world behind sweden and when we say single parent ninety two percent of the time that means it's a single mother and what's interesting is the data shows that the daughters of single mothers have the same outcomes same college attendance same income same rates of self harm boys once they lose a male role model immediately become dramatically more likely to be incarcerated dramatically less likely to graduate from high school dramatically more likely to suffer from addiction what it ends up is that while boys are physically stronger they're emotionally and mentally much weaker just because you say it's really important that a boy have a man involved in his life that's in no way diminishing the superheroes that are single mothers but i think we have to acknowledge that it is really important that men be involved and that's the problem with schools now that don't have enough men because there's an entire generation of young men that go through their lives until they're twenty five with absolutely no men involved and if you have kids you see that occasionally dad just plays a bigger role his physical size his voice whatever it might be and i'm thinking a lot about masculinity i think the ultimate expression of masculinity is i've got my shit sewed together i can take care of myself i can take care of my immediate family i can take care of my kids the people i work with you know i pay good taxes but the ultimate expression of masculinity is getting involved in the life of a boy that isn't yours and unfortunately michael jackson and catholic church have fucked it up for all of us and created this weird notion that if you're a guy your age and you're super successful you might have love to give and you might see a fifteen year old boy that could use your help and it feels unnatural to get involved in his life.

[Rich Roll]

And that's not true yeah the culture of mentorship has waned to say the least and you know i think it's fair to say that america was built on the idea of apprenticeship and mentorship but that culture seems to have evaporated like where are the mentors where are the sage councils and the healthy masculine men who are helping to guide the.

[Scott Galloway]

Next generation well i got it from coaches but a lot of kids aren't going to church though they used to get it from the reverend or the.

[Rich Roll]

Rabbi community oriented programs have gone away what are the rates of young men in sports is it the way that it was when we were kids are less young men participating in sports and where are the other healthy outlets for the young men in need of mentorship.

[Scott Galloway]

So sports is like most things there's still the same level of participation but unfortunately it's been crowded towards the wealthy engaging in a sport has become not a luxury item but pretty close even if you look at the college athletes outside of basketball and football it's disproportionately rich kids because if your kid wants to play lacrosse to send them to lacrosse camps or hurdle lacrosse camps and get them the right training and the right equipment it's just expensive but i think you know sports are and after school programs are being cut but going to solutions i think there's a ton of solutions so starting boys a year late in elementary school they're just less mature the worst thing that happened to me or almost happened to me is my parents wanted me to skip a grade because it was back in the space race and if you were offered the opportunity to skip a grade that meant you were gonn be a work for nasa i showed up at ucla at the age of seventeen and i was way too immature to handle the alcohol and the pressure of it all start em a year later try and create greater incentives to get more men in primary and secondary high school and elementary school more vocational programming there's just a ton of jobs in the real economy for specialty construction specialty nursing anyone who's renovating a house knows that a roofer makes really good money much less a plumber and stop shaming those jobs start elevating them i think we have to level up young people in general there's been an enormous transfer of wealth from young people to old people specifically people under the age of forty used to control nineteen percent of the gdp in terms of their wealth it's been cut to nine percent the average seventy year old is seventy two percent wealthier than they were forty years ago the average person under the age of forty is twenty four percent less wealthy and that affects women and men but it's disproportionately affecting men because men are fairly or unfairly evaluated from a mating perspective based on their economic viability the best example of i think that depicts this the greatest innovation in history wasn't the iphone or a semiconductor it was the american middle class fought wars pushed back on fascism paid an enormous amount of taxes was innovative came up with darpa came up with vaccines came up with gps and where it all started was seven million men returned from world war two and they demonstrated excellence in uniform and the government said we're going to make a massive investment in them in terms of the gi bill and the highway construction bill we're going to give them jobs we're going to give them economic viability and quite frankly they were just very attractive and they had an easier time finding mating finding a house two car garage and it set off the baby boom and it set off a generation of confident loving kids who were comfortable and said all right it's time for civil rights it's time to bring women into the workforce it's time for women's rights and it just set off this kind of you know post world war two liberal progressive society the likes of which we've never seen that type of prosperity but the middle class is an accident it doesn't self sustain the incumbents and people on the far right will claim that the middle class is a self repairing organism it's not it's an anomaly middle classes have never existed in society before we figured it out but unless you have economically and emotionally viable men you can't have a middle class so the question is how do we level up young men and i don't think you can just have affirmative action for men i think that's too political but i do think we have to put more money into the pockets of young people who have seen a transfer of wealth and i'll touch a third rail here every year we transfer one point five trillion dollars the greatest economic transfer in history happens every year from young people to the wealthiest generation in history senior citizens and it's called social security and it just is insane that this group that is consistently seeing their wealth and on an inflation adjusted basis their livelihood go down and down and down transfer money to the wealthiest population in the world.

[Rich Roll]

Up next is me and john price who is a depth psychologist and basically this mystic this modern myth maker so yeah we're.

[Scott Galloway]

Going deep today let's do it.

[Rich Roll]

We'Re in an era in which you know community is fractured community centers are no longer you know we're lacking in those spaces and gathering places that used to be part and parcel of every village and every town every city and those have sort of vanished the path is being dictated by the mores of western capitalist society which says your value and your entitlement to be loved and accepted is indelibly tied to your ability to produce achieve distinguish yourself and that's a poisonous noxious message where you feel like your self worth is only insofar as you're able to kind of like acquit yourself in this material world like there's a violence to that and the teachers who can disabuse you of that and set you on a different course are few and far between you know what i mean like you're not going to find them in the public schools and you're not going to find them in the community centers that no longer exist right and occasionally you know that coach will come along or that special one person that makes a difference but it seems to me that there's less and less of that and that's a greater challenge and my sense is that this is noxious for the culture and for all people but i think it has an outsized impact on men and particularly young men and when you share the story of the crying boxer that's sort of the encapsulation of like this whole dilemma that so many men are facing right now who are more or less because they don't have a teacher they don't have a path and they don't have a community.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

I thought about two things i was thinking in that when i worked in that inpatient residential center sorry to every therapist out there in the world but the thing that people remember the most is not the therapist it's not some interpretation the therapist made and it's not some theoretical orientation that you know that created some skills based approach that they learned how to do x y or z when people are asked about what mattered the most it.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Is.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

An event like the lady behind the counter at the cafeteria saved the favorite dessert of the person you know it's these very very relational very kind connected moments and the other thing i wanted to address is as you're talking about men and certainly the development of young men richard always brings up this one image of these elephants that were you know in india or somewhere that were just ransacking the town running rushing people stepping on cars doing things that elephants tend not to do and they bring in this behaviorist elephant expert and says what's happening here and they're like oh i get it there are three adolescent male elephants that the father and grandfather generations have been poached and so they are without initiation so they said not funny but i love the solution they bring in two granddaddy elephants and if any of you know richard rohr i love him when he does this because he says these elephants just kind of move their ears around and you know the adolescent young ones are like well what is that and we see that in gangs for example you know that the same spells that we need for healthy initiation and community process are utilized and co opted by what i would consider to be uninitiated people or people at least that are using the spells in service to some kind of harm to culture as opposed to the opposite and so that i mean just full disclaimer i mean i don't want to get into necessarily a conversation that seems to paint capitalism or free market enterprise as negative again it's just incomplete when the enterprise doesn't recognize that there are people being left out by this equation and do the things necessary to bring along those who are being lost or forgotten that's the problem so if you're going to have whatever kind of economic or philosophical or political orientation okay run the experiment see if it works all over the world we're going to do that but any orientation is going to create some kind of neglect no matter what you're doing and so if you're not doing things i think to nourish and nurture those who are left then that's the problem so i think when it comes to men the statistic that really came out as you were beginning your question or thought about men is that men right now have fifty percent less friends than we did twenty years ago and i could give you statistics all day long about suffering of men but to me that's the most important because because i think it's the catalyst for all the others i think in the absence of real genuine connection intimacy presence the experiential process of bumping up against another human being of being known of being seen and witnessed of being held accountable of being beholden to relationships and forces that are outside of your own desires i think that's a real travesty in our culture and men all over are suffering the burden of.

[Rich Roll]

Our issue what is your sense of what's driving this loneliness well i think.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

That see kind of item number one around a culture that doesn't have initiation you know we're telling it's back to the spirit of the depths you know we're telling men how to be producers but we're not telling men how to be in relationship one of the things we do at the center for healing arts the integrative wellness center that my wife and i have is we look at the human as biological psychological social and spiritual and really try to address all these levels of the ways in which we show up and the social is one of those levels and we don't teach men how to be social how to be connected how to be in the mix with other men and i do think that when you're not beholden to a community and really known deeply differently than you are with a romantic partner whoever it might be but with a community of men i just think that there are elements of our psyche that get untethered and i don't know how you measure that necessarily but i certainly know that i work with it a great deal and the kinds of addictions and depressions and alienations and isolations that happen as a result are paramount and there's a reason why in our prison systems which i could be deeply critical of there's a reason in our prison systems the worst consequence that you can give to somebody is isolation that says something about our needs and if we're creating a culture that is essentially knowingly because we know the consequences with men that are disconnected from each other and feeling more and more isolated that's a problem because we're taking a pretty aggressive part of our species and creating a pretty aimless hurt yeah that's.

[Rich Roll]

Going to go out into the world and like those elephants yeah you know just stomp cars wreck shit yeah yeah.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

And that again that's there's this ethnobotanist named mark plotkin that i interviewed once who had been he spent a lot of time down in south america working with all these different tribes and he said you know really with the shaman like it's all the same spells you know they're all reading from the same spell books whether you're doing what could be considered dark magic or light magic same spells it's just your intention and so gangs use the same spells that we might have in a community that creates rites of passage that creates kind of in group inside jokes markers of being a part of the group processes to go through together to bond each other closely i mean all kinds of dynamics that we need that gangs will capitalize on that the military capitalizes on but for everybody that is not called into those arenas we're without a process of moving through i mean i think in the best rites of passage this is really hard for people to hear a lot of times my favorite rite of passage which seems really kind of messed up is a process down i believe it's in colombia where they take tends to be young boys at about twelve years old and they take these bullet ants have you heard of this before bullet ants so bullet ants are these ants that are given the name bullet ants because their bite feels like a gunshot and what they do to these kids is they smoke all these ants out so they're stunned they weave these palm gloves and they weave the ants inside the palm gloves so that when they wake up they begin to sting or bite the children so you see these images of these children that have these palm gloves on and for ten minutes they're to sit there and take it and then twenty four hours it's gone i mean it doesn't last can you endure this and it's an experiential process where you're saying i've done hard things i've done hard things and most importantly then those hard things that i've done created in me a community of connection and the community conspires they want you to be a part of this they want to fold you in they're supporting this and they fold you in after you pass this test so to speak and they give you all the ethics and moral dynamics and all the cultural accoutrements of being a member of the tribe you can then be in relationship you achieve something important you know when you talk to a young person you're like what are your rites of passage you know what they'll say i mean they'll take a stab i.

[Rich Roll]

Mean short of a bar mitzvah or you know being on a sports team i suppose on some level or going through you know the process of what do they call it when you're trying to get into a fraternity or you know like these are very like low hang you know like very low grade versions of that they're almost like vestiges of you know this ancient practice that has existed for you know as long as humans have congregated and formed communities together but this is kind of all.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

That remains that's it the culture doesn't conspire right arguably the fraternity thing does but still you might argue that a kind of immature sorry guys but a kind of immaturity is running the show.

[Rich Roll]

There yeah there's no wise elder like lording over the rite of passage and making sure that everyone understands understands like the greater purpose here or you know what what what the aim is so.

[Depth Psychologist (possibly John Price)]

Most people that i talk to when i ask them questions about rites of passage they will say the first time they drank the first time they had sex and when they got a car and fine but those again aren't supported you're not having the celebration of your community and your elders and your family because now you're a part of something something and you can fight for the community and you can serve the community the stakes are i mean i think in a lot of ways we're warriors that don't have a war and don't have a process to i mean that spiritually i don't mean that about going out and hurting other people again i'm masculine in that way and that this spiritual war of working through your own impulses your own tendencies your own hedonism your own desire to retreat and isolate your own narcissism and your own self indulgence that tension is something you must fight against and so no i'm not a tribal person in south america but i do need a marker in my life to say i was once this way and now i am this way and i've achieved something great and i've learned that i can do hard things.

[Rich Roll]

We got a lot more to come but first immune health is one of those things that most people don't really think about unless they're sick or getting sick but the real game is promotion played in the daily choices you make when you're feeling just fine and that's my approach with peak's daily radiance liposomal vitamin c which i've been taking as part of my morning ritual as well as part of my surgery recovery because vitamin c has antioxidants of course which help with collagen production which is not just for skin health but also wound healing which is key for me while among other things vitamin c reduces inflammation and pain obviously important in my recovery process and what makes this product different is that peak's liposomal technology protects the vitamin c from your stomach acid so though it actually gets to your cells intact most vitamin c supplements break down in your digestive system before they can even do any good and when i switched up the difference was actually pretty noticeable it's got vitamin c plus black elderberry which supports gut health and that matters because eighty percent of your immune system lives in your gut it's buffered which means it won't bother your stomach and it tastes like berries instead of something medicinal that you gotta force down which obviates the palatability problem with most liposomal products and the single serve packets make it easy to take with me anywhere i go so boost your immune system and your glow get twenty percent off for life and explore all of peak's pure ingredient products at peaklife dot com richroll that's p i q u e life dot com rich roll rich.

[Terry Crews]

Roll.

[Rich Roll]

There'S this persistent myth that creatine is just for bodybuilders and gym bros and i kind of get it the marketing has been terrible for decades but what the science shows is that creatine is actually this fundamental cellular fuel your brain uses it your heart uses it every energy demanding process in your body relies on it and this connects to everything i explore on the show cognitive well being physical performance recovery longevity it's about improving how your cells generate energy at the most fundamental level momentous understands this and their new lemon travel packs make it simple i've got them right here they're all naturally flavored of course perfectly portioned with grab and go convenience but the real differentiator is momentous creatine itself it's pharmaceutical grade not the bulk powder of questionable origin that floods the market theirs comes from germany and it's called creature so if you have been curious about creatine but just kind of put off by the bro science marketing this is your entry point use code richroll at livemomentous dot com richroll for up to thirty five percent off your first order all right people one of the world's most compelling and iconic public figures the singular arnold schwarzenegger shared how he reached the pinnacle of success in three very different careers we also discussed why he believes adversity breeds character as well as lessons from his book be useful these experiences obviously were formative and made you who you are and i know you have a lot of gratitude for them but what's the other side of that what is the pain point like when you look back on that what is your relationship with that past when you're not you know on a microphone and there's cameras i you know.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

A lot of things we don't choose i mean i don't choose how i feel i happen to be fortunate that i don't have one ounce of negative thinking about my past not one ounce and i don't know why you know it's just not there yeah i just i just have you know i remember the tough times but i also remember very clearly the sweet times the gentle times that my father showed that my mother showed you know how wonderful they were and how supportive they were in the schools and the sports field everything even though they were not kind of like the american parents it's so different my parents have never ever watched me in a soccer game never ever watched me in a basketball game or track and field shot put championships javelin throwing championships anything like this that we did in school never ever because no one did there was no parent hanging around and saying oh let's watch our kids like we do over here yeah in.

[Rich Roll]

The documentary there's the one where they actually do show up at that one bodybuilding competition and you were confused well.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

They showed up because my friend freddie gerstel that i met very early on invited them and he was a very respected kind of a man in town and they did it for him i think because you know because he invited them and so they took it seriously oh this must be something special and then when they saw me up there on the stage i mean it's just like they couldn't believe it you know even though i have to say my mother sewed for me my bathing suit because i found some bathing suit which was just too big and i wanted to have it cut down so she was sewing with the sewing machine the day before the competition i told her i'm gonna go into a competition and i need a small bathing suit and so she was sewing it and i was trying it on for her and it was doing the fitting and all of that stuff so it was very sweet of her i mean how many mothers do that but i mean so there's that side but they just it was not the the style then to go and do watch kids the only competition that my parents ever watched was that one competition in graz and then one competition in essen in germany when i won mister olympia for the third time and then right after that my father passed away so i was fortunate.

[Rich Roll]

That you saw that there's this resistance or just refusal on your part to in any way be a victim and we're in a culture right now where victimhood we have a different relationship with victimhood i'm sure that drives you insane and this book is really speaking to that on some level like positivity as an antidote for the lack of agency that a lot of people feel or the indulgence with an identity around victimhood as powerlessness right and this is all about calling people to action to take responsibility for their lives and giving them tools and a roadmap that it's straightforward advice in this book right but it's very direct and because it's from you it's so palpable so i guess what i'm asking is you know how do you think about the way that our culture now thinks about mental health and our relationship with this idea of powerlessness.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I think that in general i think with the what the book is trying to do is to say to people you need to work on yourself if you just try to be pampered and if you're trying to be soft and if you're trying to be the victim and all stuff you're not going to go anywhere we need to get stronger we need to get bossier we need to get tougher we need to not be afraid of failure we got to go and do the work we got to face adversity adversity breeds character strength and fighting and resistance does not only make the muscle grow but it makes also your head grow makes you a stronger person we have to be willing to go through hardship through suffering through pain through crying periods all of that stuff don't shy away from any of that because it just makes you stronger and i think the day a lot of times our youth is so into kind of oh let's make him feel good oh no let's be more sensitive well i totally agree with you to be sensitive about things but i mean there's also a sweet spot can we go too far you know it's like when someone says today i just need to sleep in is that bullshit you don't need to sleep in this country was not built on sleeping in so let's get up in the morning and let's get on that bike and let's do some exercise and don't even think about it don't look at your email or anything like this let's just get going boom boom boom let's get going let's start building and so that's the idea is just not to be overly soft and overly kind of like sensitive and everyone is in the victim kind of a thing i just don't buy into that but you have to understand that every person has to be approached also differently it's like the mind is just like the body i cannot give you exactly the same training routine that i had because your body is different you're a much leaner person you need kind of to do maybe lesser reps and what this you have to have a different diet if you want to bulk up and all this so i have to be aware of that that even within my family one of my daughters had to be approached differently than my other daughter one son had to be approached differently than the other son so you have to be sensitive about those kind of things but overall there was discipline in the house you don't turn out that light i will unscrew those light bulbs and you will be going into a dark room at the age of three and you will be scared so you better start learning to turn off those lights you have someone else make your bed okay i'm gonna take the mattress and throw it down the balcony and then you carry it upstairs and you make your own bed again so this is the way my kids grew up you know and it was like there was crying there or when i burned her shoes when she left my daughter left her shoes for the three times in front of the fire place i see the third time it goes in fire the third time it did go in the fire right in front of her and she was crying the whole night yeah those things happen but now she does the same to her daughter and now she says that was great that you did that you see what i'm saying so now my kids were crying on the ski slopes i want to go in i want to go hard chocolate there will be no hot jacket you know the usual kindergarten cup kind of a thing you know there would be no hot chocolate i said we're going to ski four runs and then there's a hot chocolate i said not after the first run yeah but i'm colton says so am i so what so what so now let's go be cold and then go skiing and i said the more we ski the bumps and the more we ski the powder the warmer we get and the more we warm up i said let's get going and so now today when they come up to sun valley with their friends they get up after the dinner with their wine glass and they say we want to toast daddy because he made us good skiers and that's why we are here today that's why we enjoy skiing with all of you that's the thing you got to just kind of figure it out you know how to do that and all this but you know it's not easy i'm not a psychologist i'm not an expert at this but one thing i know for sure i can help anyone to go and be a little bit better.

[Rich Roll]

Up next is john pearson and john has the very interesting distinction of being the original male supermodel in this conversation we discuss mental health and modeling healthy masculinity which are the themes that underscore john's very cool lifestyle and self improvement digital magazine which is called mister feelgood i think the idea like young men like it is a more confusing time like we grew up in an analog world right and we're one of the last generations of people to kind of traverse from analog to digital but our formative years were pre computer completely right and now i think we're in a confusing state for a lot of men where there's expectations for them to be strong be the provider to kind of inhabit the traditional sense of what it is to be masculine and yet also to be the sensitive person the person who goes to all the school events on weekdays at two o' clock in the afternoon and who is caring and somebody who has to fire on all cylinders and there's an expectation level that i think is difficult for anybody to live up to essentially and when you kind of step down into even the younger generations who are dealing with how to date and that's all digital now with these apps and all that kind of stuff and this is something scott galloway talks quite a bit about i think it's really hard right and we're at a certain age where we don't have direct experience with those sorts of things so how do you think about lending a hand or being a mentor or communicating helpful information to that person who is trying to navigate you know those all of those.

[John Pearson]

Landmines it's tough it's tough i think i think our sons have to and their tribes have to learn to be vulnerable and be connected as a community and to not have too many expectations because there are a lot of expectations on them it is a different world i think it's very difficult i think i think they're also very smart a lot of them and they can figure it out and things that i worry about for them they aren't even worrying about because if they're focused if they're fortunate enough to have something they love to do have a purpose or a goal or be passionate about something i think that helps them a lot to direct their focus and to move forward as they go into life as a.

[Rich Roll]

Young adult but you can't manufacture that for anybody no especially your kids no unfortunately you can expose them to lots of different things and just hope that something connects with them and lights them up in that way yeah it's true.

[John Pearson]

I mean it's a work in progress you know and it's i think all we try and do is be open but provide a safe space where they can explore those kind of feelings and worries and advise them on what we know and what we've experienced in an ever changing world where they can then sort of bespoke it if they're able and all my kids personally our kids are you know they're pretty the greatest really one of the greatest things of my life is that my kids know who they are and i think that's you know a lot more than i did at that age i think the french say bien d' un sa pour comfortable in their own skin that's like.

[Rich Roll]

You'Re on the ten yard line if you have that you know yeah and.

[John Pearson]

I'M really i stand back and i watch them and i observe them in company and in the way they sort of address the issues of the day their own personal challenges and i feel really just so grateful that they've got that and i think it probably comes from my wife's family's side but i think that's a marvelous thing that's a real blessing i think it's tough out there i really think it's tough out there and i by no means have an answer for you that's eloquent or rooted for you yet in all honesty but i also want to engage and as we grow younger people into mister feelgood i want to bring them into the sort of fold and have them write for me and a couple of them do already and just sort of the idea of having sitting around a table with these kids you know twelve men i want you to do this with me at some point but twelve really interesting men who can sit around and we can talk and we can listen and i think community when you build community and especially of men you know i think that's a really powerful thing i think to sit and to be listened and to be heard is a really powerful thing and especially in a circle of men who are trying to do the right thing who are trying to calibrate this ever changing sort of world i think that's really vital but i certainly don't have the answers but i'm i'm determined to try and help and contribute in some way yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I mean vital's the right word i mean i've been lucky enough to be parts of groups like that you know through recovery and also through other therapeutic modalities and it's been absolutely transformative for me but i'm also aware that it's not the experience of most people most men right and i think a lot of men suffer in silence and they just carry on and push it all down until something one day you know breaks or explodes and i think that's the more typical experience and to the extent that you know there are solutions for people who are in that state like i want to be participating in that because you know i think it's chronic honestly and there is an epidemic of of mental health disorders that you know it's not unique to men but i think there is something about men where it's not talked about to the extent that it should be and getting help is not as permissive as it.

[John Pearson]

Should be and it should be and we should all you know we should take time to reach out to our community and put the effort and the energy into building these sort of creating these situations where we can all exchange where you know we can sort of feel safe to talk about i mean the whole vulnerable thing that's a really sort of mysterious one for me i know it's important and i know it's valuable and i never really recognized my own acute vulnerability until i started doing mister feelgood i had episodes but consistently being accountable and having to do this after having had an agent who just said this is the flight this is how much there you are you know yeah and i and i still i'm still really curious about the whole vulnerable thing and you know when to be restrained when to be open what value will that give the person i'm sitting with you know and i still my yorkshire roots are like no man up man up you know don't talk well there's certainly don't be soft you know and all that stuff but but you won't survive you won't survive you'll be a you know you'll self medicate you'll drink you'll whatever your drug of choice is or you'll just implode and you'll freak out and you'll do something stupid and i think we have to change that maybe it's an education you know maybe it's having people like you and scott myself perhaps you know going in and talking about this actually delivering you know lessons on this sort of thing you know actually going into the education system and i do think you know doing retreats with fellows with men is really good young guys and older guys and i think there's a lot to be said for taking sage advice from those who came before us you know even though they lived in a more closed off sort of or a more one dimensional idea of masculinity i was brought up to respect my elders and i was lucky cause when my parents divorce i go and see my father and he'd always do meals on wheels and he'd take me around delivering food to the elderly and most of these guys had just come out and ladies had come out of the second world war they were the last and it was fascinating to engage with their sort of stoicism and their dignity and i think you know i learned a lot about listening to people then and.

[Jonathan Haidt]

I.

[John Pearson]

Think we have to do something about it i think we have to engage i think we have to sort of join forces and you know create something that really does because the important thing is a lot of people sort of start doing these things but it's the it's it's being there for the long ride which is important and especially in this day and age when everything's so disjointed and quick and we're overcome with sort of information i think to be consistent is really a great quality to have and i think you know if you're if you're mentoring someone you're in it for life yeah you know you should be and you'll reap benefits you know but but really it's you you can't just do it for a day you can't give a bit of advice and think it's done you have to be consistent yeah.

[Terry Crews]

Foreign.

[Rich Roll]

I want you to pause for a moment because i want to tell you about my friend rj now you might know this guy as the founder and ceo of rivian he is certainly that but he's really so much more he's one of those rare people who actually walks the walk i've watched him over many years and i know him to be this incredibly detailed deeply committed person committed to preserving wild spaces while also inspiring people to explore responsibly and that's basically rivian in a nutshell their mission keep the world adventurous forever comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet these are not separate things they're the same thing here's what gets me every generation deserves wild places to roam to climb higher to run farther to be changed by the journey but obviously that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there so yeah rivian builds electric vehicles but really they're building something bigger momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature but actually inspires us to protect it it's like why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves and that's why i'm so proud to align forces in partnership with rivian this isn't just about transportation it's about building a world worth exploring for our kids for their kids and for generations to come this podcast is brought to you by squarespace when it comes to the infinite scroll of our digital world there's an important distinction i like to draw which is that there is a difference between consuming content mindlessly and on the other hand using our computers with creativity and intention as a tool to build something meaningful whether that's a coaching practice for example a store or a portfolio for your photography what you need and deserve is a hobby high quality highly designed platform that reflects your personality without compromising functionality and now squarespace is even more powerful courtesy of something they call blueprint ai which asks you to answer a few questions about your goals and your style and then it generates this completely custom website that looks professionally crafted without any tech skills on your your part even nominally required their analytics show you what's actually working where your audience comes from what content resonates real data instead of guessing so head on over to squarespace dot com richroll to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code richroll movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even movement is a language it's a way of connecting body mind and environment movement as a way of being a way of being that brings me close to myself closer to other people and to what matters most in life and for me what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial role and that's what i appreciate about on they don't just make gear they engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself from running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down right where it matters every detail is widely intentional seam placement reflectivity breathability minimalism that works together so the gear disappears and nothing gets in the way this is apparel born from persistent and tested by elite athletes but made for anyone committed to the path i've been with on since twenty twenty three and i'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose not flash head to on dot com rich roll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way.

[Toby Morse]

Okay.

[Rich Roll]

Next stop is star of screens big and small terry crews who joined me on episode six hundred and seventy six for a long form exchange on overcoming toxic masculinity transcending obstacles confronting your past and stepping into your truest power and most actualized self maybe talk a little bit about masculinity and how you're thinking.

[Terry Crews]

About it what was wild is that you know i remember you know having to fight my way into school it was you know the gangs the drug dealers the people that were around me were always looking at me suspiciously they would say things like you talk white you know and i'm like what is that and what was happening is remember i was kind of sheltered is what it was i mean i was religious and i was in this thing where it wouldn't allow us to do anything but so i would go into my hole and i would draw and draw all day i mean i would draw what i wanted to see you know and it was an introspective very nerd nerdy world i became this nerd but then when i came outside i was always challenged on it like oh man you know back in the day they called you a square you know and it was like what and but then athletics coded black coded hardcore so i said all right so i have to be that you know and i knew that i had to be big strong fast athletic and they would leave me alone you know it's like i knew when i got some traps that they would think twice about they'd go well he's probably gonna do some athletic stuff so they leave him alone but the skinny kid he had no choice they would beat him up it would be crazy it would be violent they used to beat up my brother he was smaller than i was he's my half brother and i remember these gang members threw him in the rose bush and he was just hurt we went home and he was in tears and i was just like pulling him out of it but they didn't mess with me but that coded and it coded hardcore you know what i mean but it's.

[Rich Roll]

Almost like this shield this armor that you built around yourself simply to protect that artist within you yeah so he could still you know do his thing quietly without you know being bullied or.

[Terry Crews]

Taking the task i always knew that i was what you would call weird you know in that respect because people were always you know you they would just tell me man you weird man you know and i'm hey you know whatever i don't i would just kind of blink it off and this is another thing is that i would fake it you know a lot of my acting ability you know one thing i used to do is dumb down it was oh man i don't know what y' all talking about man what you doing man yeah you know you know and you just learned to mirror the lingo and i would mirror people so that they wouldn't be suspicious you know.

[Rich Roll]

What i mean like just get along.

[Terry Crews]

To go along it was and then go home and then all of a sudden find somebody who or even be at school and find somebody who we had the same you know interests and it was like oh man i could go all in on this you know what i mean and it was funny because even when i met my wife she said i thought you were the biggest nerd and i saw you with your friend and you talked a whole different way and i was like ah that's that's kind of how i've been doing my whole life you know i knew cause she was like you were here how i'm thinking you're this nerdy black guy and then i turn around and you're with these guys your friends and you're talking all cool and i was like it was like two people and i was like yeah this had to be that way my whole life.

[Rich Roll]

But this idea blossoms into this notion that this is the case for all men don't all men have two lives the secret life that they hide from everybody else and then the way that they show up in the world that's right that's just the way it is.

[Terry Crews]

Is i believe that i believe that that was definitely the case for me.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah so without any kind of healthy role models for yourself as a young person you strike this vow with your friend which i think is super interesting it's it's almost like a survival tactic like hey no one's showing us the way like we got to help each.

[Terry Crews]

Other out yeah i mean i i remember coming to my friend a good my best friend in the world his name is darwin and i said hey man i said dude no one is telling us anything and we had nothing but questions and we would try we.

[Rich Roll]

Would ask but the men wouldn't give.

[Terry Crews]

It up they would literally you gonna find out they tell you hey let me tell you something you gonna find out on me you know and then you're like oh man what and it's like dude i'm eleven can you please just give me some clues and then what was wild is that we would get all this erroneous information like what the things they did volunteer was like hey man look what you want to do you want to take these girls tell them you love them get the draws and then bounce and i was like but what if you do like them no no you don't love them you can't love them and you're like what are you talking about like cause i had this vision of actual love like i mean the picture like even in the movies like there's people fall in love though right they no man what you want to do you gotta have like four or five and you gotta keep them on and you gotta always keep them on a leash and then call them and then don't call them back i mean and the whole phrase was called game and it's still talked about even now you know and it was like you gotta have game to run this thing and then you can have all these girls you gotta have ten and the more you had the more of a man you were and i was like and that's again the message of what masculinity was was that you were a pimp and that's what i grew up with and it was like but i said but i don't i just you know and i had a really really hard time because i said i don't really want to lie to people but and then i escaped into porn and that was the only because my parents my father to this day has never had a conversation with me about sex ever and my mother was so religious she was like she was like are you having sex and i'm like no no i'm not don't do it i'm trying listen you know you go to hell right and okay back to hell again you know and so i totally avoided that conversation but so everything i learned was at at nine years old when i went over my uncle's house opened up his chest and it was full of pornographic magazines and you know a lot of people you know what's wild about that is that everybody says well you know pornography is great you know when people it's totally acceptable when people are over eighteen the whole thing but i don't know anybody that ever encountered pornography at eighteen no yeah you know you always encounter it in school or whatever when someone's showing you and you're like six seven eight nine i mean and it's.

[Rich Roll]

Damaging it's damaging it really is and we you know we grew up in a time where it was you know in a box that your friend's dad had in the basement somewhere or buried in the woods or some shit like that you know and now it's like ubiquitous and so readily available and unlimited and it's fucking crazy i can't listen.

[Terry Crews]

Man the thought of what kids are possibly looking at right now it sends chills down my back chills and cause i know what path it set me on and again man people have said well you can't i don't think you can be addicted to pornography and the whole thing but my problem was is that hey man if day turns into night and you're still watching it and you say you don't want to and you keep doing it i don't know what else to call it but i found even as a young kid what happened is when i discovered it it took all my problems away i mean when i opened that magazine i didn't even know what i was looking at mind you i didn't even know how to have sex but i just knew oh my god this is mind blowing and i was totally numbed out and i forgot about the violence i forgot about my dad and i forgot about the religiosity and then what would happen is i would get shame and you'd feel like oh lord i know i'm going to hell i'm going to hell and so you would say i'll be good i'll be good and i became a performer i became this person who wanted to keep peace in the house i was going to be the best most christian kid and i was going to be the best most great kid for my dad you know and do whatever he says right and it just but i had no say of my own like what i wanted was always fourth thing down the line you know what i mean and i was taught that like literally like it don't matter what you want you know you better listen to what we're saying you better listen to what's going on here and so the neighborhood catpull the gangs had poor my parents had pulled but i.

[Rich Roll]

Had no voice in episode eight hundred and twenty seven we welcomed the brilliant social psychologist jonathan haidt to the podcast to explore his groundbreaking research on social media's impact on youth mental health which is the subject of his seminal book the anxious generation haidt's insights into how digital technology is reshaping adolescence made this one of our most impactful so here is an excerpt from that conversation.

[Jonathan Haidt]

At what age could you ride your bicycle around and go visit your friends i.

[Rich Roll]

Mean super young second grade third grade seventh grade yeah out all day be.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Home by dinner that's right that was the universal thing and you and i grew up during a crime wave there were drunk drivers there was crime in the nineties things got really safe crime plummeted drunk driving plummeted you know mothers against drunk driving we locked up the drunk drivers so when you and i were young and this goes back literally millions of years kids are not in adult supervised programs they're on their own and that's absolutely crucial for developing independence we want our kids to be self supervising self governing so that they don't have to have someone telling them what to do but in the nineties we began locking them up supervising them saying we can never let you out alone because there's a microscopic chance you'll be kidnapped but it looms very large in my mind because i just read a story in some newspaper about it which is called the availability bias in psychology.

[Rich Roll]

And it's on the side of all.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Our the milk cartons that's right that's right the book is focused on the great rewiring which is twenty ten to twenty fifteen but there's a really important backstory which is the more gradual loss of childhood independence loss of trust in children and loss of trust in each other that turns out to be one of the main reasons we locked up our kids was we started thinking every adult is a potential child molester i can't trust my kid with anyone i have to supervise or just you know very limited number of people that i'll trust whereas when you and i were growing up during the crime wave adults generally had the sense that if a kid falls off his bicycle you know and is hurt and you see it you would call their mother you'd say well you know what's your phone number we all knew our phone numbers and that kind of went away in the nineties as we lost trust in each other and that's part of why we clutched our kids so close that we don't let them develop and the irony.

[Rich Roll]

Being that we're hyper or overprotective of our kids in physical spaces and completely under protective in this digital space which is we're learning we're discovering is far more dangerous than the imagined threat in.

[Jonathan Haidt]

The physical world that's right and that's why i started off by talking about the incredible techno optimism that we all had in the nineties and the two thousands because we thought this stuff is so amazing and we saw that even back in the eighties kids who played with computers and we called them geeks and nerds wow they're starting companies now they're doing amazing things with this new technology hey there's my kid playing with an iphone maybe he'll grow up to start a company maybe he'll get smarter and more technically skilled but that didn't happen we have all this techno optimism we think computers are good for our kids we think oh we need to get computers to every kid you know in the nineties or early two thousands oh it's terrible that the rich kids have computers but poor kids don't have them we have to have every kid have a computer and of course the tech companies you know they want to come in they want to give kids a chromebook get them using our operating system so we let this happen because we thought well it looks like it'll probably be good for them and there was no data on that and we weren't really collecting any data and we just let the devices take over childhood and it was only just before COVID that we really began to notice but then covid came and confused us all and we lost a few years now that covid has receded now i think everyone sees the wreckage and that's why you opened by talking about how it feels like you know things are changing everyone sees it yeah now that covid has receded we all see the wreckage.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah i'm trying to remember the feeling that i had when the internet was brand new and there was this sense of possibility and this excitement and it's hard to judge ourselves against the optimistic promise that the internet held at that time like how could it be a bad thing to connect everybody and to have access to information in this way this can only make the world a better place the irony being that that hyperconnectivity is driving loneliness and depression and self harm and suicide and all the like so in this thesis around this great rewiring like what are the i mean you've identified kind of four key harms that are at play here yeah.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Yes so this started off i was gonna be focusing i thought on social media and girls because that's where the data's clearest but as the story unfolded as i went more into childhood i realized i need a separate chapter for girls i need a separate chapter for boys but there's a bunch of things that are hitting everyone and adults as well so i ended up calling them the four foundational harms they are social deprivation sleep deprivation cognitive fragmentation and addiction so just very briefly american kids now spend five hours a day just on social media that's mostly tiktok youtube shorts it's the short videos also longer videos on youtube and it's also instagram and a bunch of other things so five hours just on social media and then another three to five hours depending on the study another three to five hours on other screen based activities and none of this includes homework this is all just leisure so you know eight to ten hours a day on their devices that pushes out almost everything else or at least it minimizes think of all the good things you did as a kid or think of all the things you'd want for your children today would you want them to have any hobbies would you want them to read books would you want them to go play outside like everything that you could want for your kid cut it by ninety percent because they have to spend all this time servicing their network connections and keeping up with what's on tiktok so you cut out all that stuff what really matters so the two that are foundational the two that just we know are just really important for mental health and for child development are time with other kids and sleep who could argue with this and the data on social deprivation is just stunning a couple of my favorite graphs in the book favorite in that they're kind of horrible but they're dramatic one is the amount of time that americans spend with each other so these are studies the american time use survey i think it's called they ask people to fill in detailed records what were you doing at this time this time this time and when you look just at time outside of work and school how much time are you spending with your friends and for older people you know in their thirties or beyond it's less than an hour a day because people are busy they're married but for teenagers it was always like two and a half it was a lot like they spent a lot of time with their friends like you know you and me after school you're just out with your friends so that begins dropping in the nineties and two thousands as kids get more you know television time and more internet time it is dropping but when you hit twenty ten twenty twelve it plummets it falls really fast and and one shocking finding is that for the older generations you see it drop with COVID like you see it goes from forty minutes to twenty minutes we were locked away you really see a drop but for teenagers what you see is the drop from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty after covid restrictions was no steeper than the drop from twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen oh that's interesting in other words they were already socially distancing so fast since twenty twelve that covid didn't even speed it up.

[Rich Roll]

Wow yeah you would have thought that covid would have been this pattern interrupt that we didn't recover from and that would be particularly acute for a teen but to understand that it was already at a plummeted state at that point and hasn't recovered right that's right as it plateaued or does it continue to.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Go down right so i don't know because we just you know it takes a while to get the data so here we are in twenty twenty i don't have data for twenty twenty three we have data for twenty twenty two some data's coming for twenty twenty three so we can begin to see the rebound from COVID but on the time you study i haven't seen it but right that would be an interesting prediction if adults went down and then they go up a little bit that's what you'd expect so my prediction would be that teenagers who went down so far they're not going to bounce back up because it's not as though oh covid's gone hey after school today how about if i come over to your house like i don't think that's gonna happen.

[Rich Roll]

Because they've acclimated to a different way.

[Jonathan Haidt]

They'Ve acclimated and for boys they literally can't go over at each other's houses if they wanna play video games yeah.

[Rich Roll]

They have to be in their own.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Pocket that's right they have to have their own equipment in their own house so these technologies that are supposed to bring people together they end up making.

[Rich Roll]

Them physically separate so the social deprivation piece the sleep deprivation piece they're relatively self evident i would like to know a little bit more about this attention fragmentation idea this idea of being constantly distracted and having to kind of toggle switch your brain because things are happening.

[Jonathan Haidt]

So fast that's right you know we all think that we can multitask but the research has shown for decades and decades if you try to do two things you'll do each of them less than half as well like there's a net loss from the transfer cost so multitasking is a bad idea with our phones the temptation is always to multitask that's just one piece of it the even worse piece is the notifications and interruptions so when the iphone came out in two thousand seven there were no push notifications there was no app store it was just a set of tools that you could pull out when you wanted as you said before you get the retweet button the like button things get much more viral now it's like urgent thing this thing's blowing up you need to know about it apple introduces i think it was called software development kits which allowed any other company to create an app and this is transformative because what now happens is kids are now carrying this thing you know beginning by twenty ten because they're carrying a portal by which any company can reach your child any company can send them notifications i mean if they've downloaded the app just once they download an app it's like they're giving permission to this company hey you can interrupt my child whenever you want oh you think there's breaking news oh you can get ten percent off on this thing oh you know somebody said something about you so we've created these incredible interrupting devices which all of us are struggling with right i mean we adults i don't use my phone that much because i'm always at a computer and i've shut off almost all notifications that's really crucial you have to shut off almost all notifications other than like uber you know a few things you need to leave on but it's hard for me to focus because if i'm doing something which is hard part of my brain says what's the weather going to be oh let me go check that yeah you know.

[Rich Roll]

Okay finally my guest is musician toby morse he's a longtime hardcore punk rocker vegan straight edge role model dad his son max is a great drummer who goes on tour with his dad following in his footsteps it's really quite charming so let's do it i mean you truly are one of the most positive people in my life and you know i've watched you in the world like interact with people everybody you meet you meet with love compassion non judgment you meet people where they're at like you like all different kinds of people especially like when it comes to music where it's like you're only allowed to like this kind or that kind like you like everything you love coldplay like you like to you know all the bands that are not supposed to be cool like you're the first person to say like you know these guys are amazing or whatever like there's just a really beautiful kind of welcoming energy that you have and it's clear that you've just been a fantastic dad i look at max this kid walks into a room and just owns it he's so charismatic and sure of himself in a healthy way he knows who he is he'll look you in the eye he talks to everybody he's not intimidated by anyone and he just has this like really kind of joyful spirit about him as well and i was like man you guys did a good job thank you.

[Toby Morse]

Man yeah i mean yeah i mean communication is key my son traveled with us since he was very very young we've always had an open relationship with my son talk about everything he wanted to talk about and unconditional love and probably you know for me i didn't grow up with a dad so everything was new to me just learning along the way and stuff and my wife's an incredible mother and yeah he's just a very well rounded open minded he's been all around the world seen different cultures you know he's been everywhere and i grew up around a lot of awesome musicians and people and i'm very lucky man especially a kid growing up.

[Rich Roll]

In hollywood too yeah i know so.

[Toby Morse]

Many different things temptations there's all kinds.

[Rich Roll]

Of stuff all around right all around like he went to a big high school school too like it could have gone any number of different ways yeah.

[Toby Morse]

Yeah it's true he went to larmont for a while then he went to hamilton high which is a great school music program the guys interrupters went there the three brothers they have like a.

[Rich Roll]

Whole like sort of recording studio i think that high school has its own.

[Toby Morse]

Label yeah they do yeah my son's been okay my son's ben ren was on that record label wow it was signed to the label and then one of the students was their manager the school that's crazy there's like an adidas sound lab there or something yeah yeah.

[Rich Roll]

That'S what i was thinking of yeah.

[Toby Morse]

So yeah it's a really great school he he learned how to play the piano really well he knows how to read music it was a really wonderful move he was kind of sheltered in the larchmont world and he's like i want to go he basically said eighth grade i want to go to a school where there's bullies and lockers that's what he wanted so i went to.

[Rich Roll]

A real school yeah i mean hamilton hamilton is that you know like that's a big place you know it's a.

[Toby Morse]

Really big campus man there's kids from all around the whole city that go there and stuff and and yeah man really happy he's a really good kid.

[Rich Roll]

Man and how did he end up in the band like what is it like i know he's like modeling he wants to be is he's pursuing acting.

[Toby Morse]

Yeah he's doing all that yeah so the band just happened i mean my he would play one song with us for a really long time he played a song called nothing to prove he'd come up on stage since he was like nine years old and then fast forward my drummer todd friend shout out to todd friend he had a problem with his shoulder he had a couple couple surgeries where he was hard for him to perform and the timing just happened with my son to jump up and play a gig with us because of that and it just continued it's been continuing since that for like two years now and we still see my drum he comes out to the show in new york he sang a song with us it's all love it's it's perfect man yeah so i don't know.

[Rich Roll]

How long it's gonna last right you just take it while you can get it right like what a cool thing to like play music with your with.

[Toby Morse]

Your son might not be cool next year i don't know you know what i mean he might be like he.

[Rich Roll]

Might join another band there's nothing like there's nothing you can do to be cool for your kid doesn't matter you confront like a cool band or whatever it's still going to be you know.

[Toby Morse]

We'Ll always be cool i hope you.

[Rich Roll]

Know no i mean you'll be cool with each other but you always think like i mean i can't imagine a cooler dad than you but like no matter what you do or who you are like your kid is always going to on some level and it's supposed to be this way like you're not as cool as you think you know.

[Toby Morse]

Yeah that's definitely true and it's meant.

[Rich Roll]

To be that way yeah because they're the next generation and they got their own ideas about what's cool he'll check.

[Toby Morse]

Me once in a while on different things it's stupid or that's cringe or that's silly something i say yeah what.

[Rich Roll]

Do you do that's cringe to him.

[Toby Morse]

I don't know maybe i don't know you said that to me before that about something or something or even before if i post something like you sure want to post that they go check me on stuff i like that though.

[Rich Roll]

There is a certain thing when you're that age where where you know most people like in their early twenties it's all about like kind of cynicism and irony like nothing's cool everything's lame all of that and you're a very earnest person and i feel like max is pretty earnest like he doesn't strike me as that person who's like everything sucks or all those bands suck like no no no he's like you know he's pretty enthusiastic about yeah he is man.

[Toby Morse]

He has a good life you better definitely have that enthusiasm he's definitely had a a wonderful he still lives at home he's twenty years old it's awesome.

[Rich Roll]

How long is that gonna go for.

[Toby Morse]

I don't know man there's a lot of kids now it seems like to be like in this generation they're still living at home kind of late it's interesting it's so expensive i don't know where he would live in los angeles.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah i mean that idea i mean our generation it was like get out the door you know and it doesn't matter if you have to go into debt or run up credit cards like you're not staying at home yeah but to me that's insane it's so expensive out there and and i don't want my kids to be running up a bunch of debt or spending money unnecessarily if they don't have to because that then ends up sort of impinging on the decisions that they can make about their life and the freedoms that they have and if i can provide a buffer by just like hanging they can hang out at home a little bit longer i'm more than happy to do it well our boys had moved out they were living in echo park doing the music thing and then when the pandemic hit but it's like don't don't pay rent in a tiny little apartment that you're stuck in like just come home yeah so they're still home and that's fine and they're working and they have their own lives but i'm not in a rush for them to leave it's like stay as long as you want i don't care i don't care i like having them around like you know it's not gonna last forever they're gonna be gone they're gonna be gone and then you're gonna be like oh wasn't it great when they were there like i'm trying to enjoy it for.

[Toby Morse]

I can't imagine like an empty house like walking by his room like it's that empty nest syndrome those two younger.

[Rich Roll]

Ones are both gone now at school so it's the older ones that are around yeah it's hard yeah it's hard i mean i'm happy for them you're.

[Toby Morse]

Emotional guy like me too though yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I mean i'm definitely i'm super emo man yeah i cried i don't know if i'm as emo as you but i can i can i can get pretty emo but just seeing about him.

[Toby Morse]

Being gone it's like freaks me out dude like i don't like stay as long as you can like i mean you're not gonna pay rent where he works right now it's gonna be possible.

[Rich Roll]

You'Re gonna blink and he's gonna be gone and doing his own thing and you're gonna be proud of him but you're gonna miss you'll miss that time so to be able to be present with it and appreciate it for the.

[Toby Morse]

World to play music with me it's.

[Rich Roll]

Like oh that's incredible what a gift you know who gets to do that.

[Toby Morse]

I know.

[Rich Roll]

Okay we did it i hope this was valuable and helped you you on your journey or could be used as a way of helping a loved one and if you have been personally inspired please consider visiting the full in depth conversations with these esteemed guests you can find links to each episode posted in the youtube description or in the show notes at richroll dot com thank you for listening thank you for watching until next time peace plants.