← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
ROLL ON: Embracing Stillness, Recovering From Surgery & Going Slow To Go Slow
01:26:49
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- [00:02]
A
Hey everybody. Welcome or welcome back to another edition of Roll On. It's been a minute. We did one not too long ago. Yeah, but here we are. Today is Friday the 13th. June 13th.
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B
Oh, wow.
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A
Were you aware of that?
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B
No.
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A
Is this podcast doomed? Out of the gate already? What's going to happen today? We're brought to you today by Momentous. As an athlete, as a cookbook author, a wellness advocate, and a podcaster who has hosted conversations with countless experts on diet and nutrition, I can tell you that nutrition is extremely complicated, extremely personal. All of which has made me more skeptical than I once was when it comes to supplementation products and the claims they make. That said, I truly do believe in responsible supplementation as an important part of nutritional health. Even the most diet rigorous among us has deficiencies, many of which go unnoticed until we undergo a comprehensive blood profile. All of which is why it's very important to be conscientious when it comes to selecting supplement products, which is what Momentous is all about. As a company that is radically committed to quality, rigor and purity, which they call the Momentous standard, an approach to nutrition that truly captures the essence of performance for life. Where most brands perform cursory checks, Momentous actually conducts exhaustive NSF certified testing that goes well beyond industry norms. Every batch is meticulously examined for purity, label accuracy, and potential banned substances. Their philosophy is simple. If a batch doesn't meet their exacting standards, it simply doesn't exist. For someone always seeking the most intentional approach to nutrition, Momentous represents a genuine commitment to performance for life, a reminder that nutrition is about supporting our body's potential, not just filling a gap. So if you're ready to elevate your Nutrition, head to livemomentous.com richroll or use the code richroll at checkout for 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com Richroll for 35% off your first subscription. Movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion. Even movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind and environment. Movement as a way of being. A way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And for me, what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial role. And that's what I appreciate about on they engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built in support to technical tees that cool you down right where it matters. This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite Athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path. I've been with on since 2023, and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not flash. Head to on.com rich roll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. So much is happening in the world right now. I can't imagine that, you know, layering Friday the 13th on top of it is.
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B
It's fitting.
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A
It's sort of like it's f. It'll just get lost in the shuffle of everything else.
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B
Well, you know, you don't hear about Friday the 13th anymore, like, when we were kids. Maybe it's something like when you're young, like, you're super focused on. Or maybe it was because those movies were happening, like, in the 80s when I was growing up, and so those movies freaked us out. And so the Friday 13th was way more. I don't know. That superstition. Is superstition still a thing?
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A
Oh, I think so.
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B
It is.
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A
Okay. Yeah.
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B
All right.
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A
I mean, look at the conspiracism that is rampant across the world right now. You don't think that Friday the 13th gets slotted in there somewhere? There's a Reddit thread, some kind of voodoo? I'm sure there is. You know what I mean? But it is true. It's one of those things that you think that was, like, such a big deal when we were kids. Totally. And you wonder, is it still, like. I'm not sure. Is it like the kid who died from eating too many Pop Rocks and drinking Coke? Do you remember that? You know, like, all these, like, urban legends that existed before the Internet that somehow found their way from coast to coast?
- [04:21]
B
Yes, yes, yes. How did that happen? It's like the. What's it called? The coconut wireless or something like that across the country?
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A
I don't know. I mean, we had a telephone, so that could explain part of it.
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B
Oh, it was the telephone.
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A
But still, it doesn't account for how deeply embedded some of those things became.
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B
It's true. But then what was cool about those times also was that, like, local bands, like, you could have a band that was huge in the west coast and the east coast. Never even heard of them. Like, and vice versa. I remember.
- [04:49]
A
Like, but that was exciting and cool, and that's. That's gone. You know, the idea that you're going to discover something and share it with your friend is. Is. Is. Is sort of a relic of the past in many ways.
- [04:59]
B
It. Putting on the Phone.
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A
Yeah. It used to be you needed. You needed like your friend's older brother to, like, tell you what was cool. Yes, yes. And then you could share it with your friends. It was like currency.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or you'd go to the record store and the owner would, like, pull something out that you'd never heard of before.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or you could go to a store where there was a certain, you know, kind of shirt or pair of pants that you could only get there.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And fashion was very localized in that way. And when you would go to some other place, you would be able to discover new things. And now everything is just kind of generalized. You know, every Main street is the same string of chain stores, et cetera, across the world. And it's becoming harder and harder and harder to find, you know, anything that's, you unique and.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah. Distinguished homogenized culture. But then that's why, just thinking of the podcast that we were just talking about off air, Craig Mods. Your episode with Craig Mod. That's what's so interesting about what he has to say about Japan, which is the craftsman culture is so revered that that is still retained in these, in these towns that you go through. It's that. That the, the, the homogeny hasn't really hit in the same way, which is interesting.
- [06:14]
A
Yeah. Which also speaks to having a safety net where there is a robust middle class and there isn't the same, you know, kind of ambitionary chase that we have here in the United States where there are many, many shopkeepers that have these little unique places and they can have a nice life doing that and persevere and pay the rent and pay their bills. And that was what made that town that he highlighted for the New York Times list, like, special to him but also confusing to the Japanese for thinking you is a very unremarkable town and kind of what unfolded from that. But, like, yeah, that was a fantastic podcast. I really enjoyed him. That one was really special.
- [06:58]
B
That was cool. It was cool, man.
- [07:00]
A
Well, I thought that we could use this occasion to dive a little bit deep into my back surgery because although I've posted on social media about it, I haven't really given the full blown story on the podcast. And there seems to be some desire for people to better understand, like, what happened, why I made this choice and kind of what I'm going through right now.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah, let's do it, man. I mean, you look. You look really good. I've been enjoying the. I am one of the people, and I know you're hearing from a lot of us that loves the short films, you know, shout out Brogan Graham, really quick. Like, the short film idea that he brought us, you know, like, you're just. You're creating these videos and he meant them exactly as they're. You're taking it to high art. Like, your short films are not just inspirational, they're like your life irl. But, like, you're seeing it from trail side view. You're dismissing it a little bit, but to me, it's like, I miss the trails so much and I see it. It's like, man, it looks very, very beautiful. So.
- [08:04]
A
Well, I appreciate that. It's funny, you know, basically all I can do right now is walk. There are still several weeks before I can even begin to do pt. And so my life is ess, essentially ground to a halt for. For the most part. And I'm not allowed to walk really longer than like, 15 minutes at a time. And so rather than do that by, like, walking a lap around my house or. Or on a treadmill or something, like, let's go to the trail and do that. Even though it's super short and just out of boredom, I was like, well, you know, I need to stop anyway. Like, I'll take some photos.
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B
Right, right, right.
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A
No one's gonna care about this, but at least I'm sharing. Like, this is what I'm going through. And sort of surprisingly, people seem to enjoy that. It's the thing that has resulted in the most number of messages and texts from people and DMs from people really enjoying that, which is sort of confusing to me because it's so banal and completely boring.
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B
No, but it ties.
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A
Really. I'm not doing anything.
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B
But it ties to how you used to do things I see when I run. So now you're doing the things I see when I walk very slowly. But what that allows, I think, is even more of an experience of the trail. And like, you're seeing the mustard, wild mustard, like, in bloom, and you're already. Now, you've been doing it so many days that you can also now see it phase out from. From bloom to back to kind of.
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A
Dormant, starting to summer. Yeah, that's quickly going away. And it's going to be brown, scorched.
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B
It is, but that'll be interesting too. Yeah.
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A
Anyway, I am on day, I think it's 36, 37 of my recovery from spinal fusion surgery. Fusion of the L5 and the S1. So just to back up a little bit, why did I have this procedure? What was going on? Well, for over a decade at this point, I've been suffering from chronic lower back pain that over time not only never went away, despite all efforts to try to treat it in a holistic manner, but only continued to get worse. And the nerve pain, the sciatic nerve pain down my leg and into my left leg and into my left foot just became unbearable and was continuing to get worse. So much so that my left foot is almost entirely numb, at least on the upper of it. And the numbness was creeping up my left leg on the outer side of my shin to just below my knee. So obviously I started to get concerned that I might end up with drop foot unless I really kind of dealt with this in a way that I had not yet. So for many years I trained through it. I was first diagnosed by Shei Shani, who's my chiropractor, very holistic practitioner that I've been seeing for a very long time. He took an X ray of my spine. I think it must have been, it's probably like 2011, maybe 2010. And he was very clear. He's like, look, you have spondylolisthesis, you are going to need surgery. And he's like, I've never, I've only recommended surgery like five times and the history of my career, but this is a very clear cut case. And it's a type of spondy that you're not going to be able to resolve short of this fusion procedure. Of course, I didn't want to hear it and I wasn't that symptomatic at the time. And I thought, like, I'll just train through it and I'll look into all of these other ways of resolving it through PT and acupuncture and peptides. So I kind of wandered in the wilderness, dabbling with a variety of these modalities for many years. And you know, some of them were helpful, but the positive results would always be temporary. And it just continued to get worse. And it's sort of paralyzing for anybody who's had a lower back problem. If you happen to bring it up in a social context, it's like, just don't, you know, like, at least in California, because if you happen to mention it, every single person, not every person, but like, quite frequently people will say, oh, you know, I had that or so and so had that. And like, I've got the guy or the woman, like, you need to see this person. They're a miracle worker, they're a healer. And for many years I would say, tell me more. You know, and then I would explore that and go see that person. Interestingly, none of those people actually ever asked me if I'd been diagnosed, let alone ask to see an X ray or an mri. They would just sort of say, I can help you. I can fix this. It's a red flag right there. And these are well meaning people, but some of them have a bit of. What is it called?
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B
Savior.
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A
Yeah, savior complex. That's the word I was looking for. And so that can be problematic. And also it's paralyzing because when there's so many people out there who. Who have all different types of modalities, who all say, this is the one way to fix it, you have to pick a lane. And when there's so many options, you can get paralyzed. And I would plead guilty to that and train through it, and I could go out and run, but I just became increasingly more and more impaired.
- [13:43]
B
But it's interesting to me that you had this diagnosis so early and yet we would never have known it. You talk about training through it like it's a little thing, but you were doing, like, real running, real swimming, real, real riding. I mean, you were really training.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And.
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A
And in pain.
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B
In pain.
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A
But, like.
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B
No, you never mentioned it.
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A
Competing also.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I should also point out that it wasn't as if I developed this in 2010 or whenever, you know, I got that first X ray. It's now clear that this is like a congenital thing. There's a certain percentage of people who are born with something called a pars defect, which is a fracture of the bone on the back of the vertebrae that kind of holds the vertebrae in place. Is it the facet joint? I'm not sure. I'm a lay person. Don't hold me to this. Right. But the bone, you know, the. Like on the back of your spine, the vertebrae are kind of. There's like these bones that flare out off the back and they kind of hold the Jenga together. Right. And that bone is fractured on my L5 and has been my entire life, basically. Like, it's just something that you have. And of course, I've been hard on my body, so I'm sure I've exacerbated it. But when I got the X ray right before my surgery, that fracture, I mean, you could. It was like completely broken. You know, it's like, so. So my spine was unstable. And this condition called spondylolisthesis is one in which the vertebrae, in my case L5, was sliding forward towards my abdomen. Like, you could see it like, wow, pushed forward. So it creates this instability in the spine. So it wasn't necessarily a disc degeneration issue. It's really. This bone is like pushed forward, and so the spine is unstable. And that instability compresses the nerve roots that come out of the spine between L5 and S1. And it's that compression on the nerve roots that causes obviously the sciatic pain and the numbness and the like, but also the pain around the lower region because of that instability and all of the other compensations that your body has to make to, like, hold yourself upright and move forward and the like. So that's spondy in a nutshell. But in my case, the decision to have surgery versus not have surgery is really one in which you have to evaluate whether the vertebrae is continuing to slip or whether it's stable. And in my case, it was continuing to slip, it was continuing to get worse. If it's stable, then you don't necessarily need to do surgery. You can do other things to kind of keep yourself out of pain and functional and live with it, essentially.
- [16:39]
B
Like rebuild the muscle structure around it.
- [16:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, you can do a little bit. And I know some athletes who have done that and have been successful. They'll have flare ups occasionally, but they can kind of live with it and still be active. But mine was continuing to slip, and I would probably end up with drop foot, you know, if I didn't get surgery right away. So anyway, I finally, you know, went to see a couple neurosurgeons, and basically everyone that I showed my MRI or my X ray to was like, listen, you know, you should have had this done a long time ago. I don't know why you waited so long. You've got to do this. You need to do it as soon as possible.
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B
Right.
- [17:16]
A
And we can help resolve this, basically. So that was the decision to undergo surgery, which I had done on May 8. And what they do, at least in my case, is they go through the abdomen. So I have like a cesarean scar on my lower abdomen. They open you up there, they push your organs aside, they reach in and they scraped out the disc between L5 and S1, and they insert this little metal cage. And inside the cage is bone grafting material. No, there are some people who take bone marrow from the patient and use that as grafting material. In my case, for whatever reason, this the surgeon who's called Dr. Langston Holley at UCLA Santa Monica, who did a fantastic job, shout out Dr. Holley. He uses a synthetic material and it's inside this cage. And then there's a screw where they screw the cage into the bone to kind of hold it in place. And over time, that grafting material will grow those two bones together, L5 and S1, until it's just one bone. But by inserting that cage, they create the proper alignment and they relieve the compression on the nerve roots.
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B
Right.
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A
So that you're not experiencing that nerve.
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B
Pulls everything back to you.
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A
Yeah. Basically aligns you.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah.
- [18:38]
A
But it's only one screw insufficient to create true stability. So they have to. So once they do that, they flip. They flip me over, and then they open me up on the back.
- [18:47]
B
Right.
- [18:48]
A
And they put two screws on each side of L5 and S1 and then these posts. Right. So they create the scaffold to really hold the whole thing together. So I got filleted back in front, and the whole process took about six hours. So it was, you know, quite something.
- [19:09]
B
Do you watch any video did they give you?
- [19:11]
A
I probably watched too many, like, YouTube videos.
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B
There's all these, like.
- [19:15]
A
Oh, no. Somebody asked, you know, somebody asked me at the other day, you should get the video of the procedure. I didn't realize they even videoed. I'm sure they did. I have an appointment coming up next week, so I'm going to ask for that because I would like to see that.
- [19:26]
B
You want to see how many hands are in there? Yeah. How many people are in there?
- [19:31]
A
But the weird thing is, first of all, I've never had, like, a major surgery. I don't know if I've ever had any surgery really. So it's a little. It's scary. You know, they're going to literally open you up.
- [19:42]
B
You never been put. You never been put out.
- [19:45]
A
Right.
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B
Anesthesia. General anesthesia, maybe.
- [19:49]
A
I'm trying to remember. I'm sure I have at some point for something for, like, I can't remember. I'm sure at some point in my life I have. But, yeah, it's no small thing. I mean, yeah, I don't need to give the blow by blow of every aspect of this, but, yeah, going into the hospital, you know, obviously Julie's right by my side or whatever, and. And the surgeon comes in, and the vascular surgeon comes in, and the. And the, you know, the nurses and they're all giving you, you know, all the information that you need, et cetera. And then they, you know, put the thing on you, the. The anesthetic anesthesia mask, and, you know, do the countdown, and obviously you're. You're out. You Know, in two seconds. And then you're just. Then it's done. You know, like, you wake up. It's the weirdest thing, you know, like, you're like, whoa. You just. Julie calls it, like. Yeah, you just. You're. You've checked out of the matrix.
- [20:39]
B
You just hope to.
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A
It's not like sleeping and waking up. It's a different experience. Like, you're just. There's a seamlessness, you know, like, that you go from one to the other. But when you're coming out of the anesthesia, like, there's a weird. Like, I don't have very clear memory of, like, those first couple hours. But I will say this, Julie, like, afterwards, you know, when they came out and told her, like, okay, we're done, it went well. She was like, can I see? Can I see him? And they were like, no, you can't see. He's in. He's not good shape. So apparently, like, what I gather from this is, like, you know, I emerged out of this in, like, you know, extreme pain, and they had to, like, stay. Stabilize me. And all I can tell you is that I completely underestimated the acuteness of the pain that I would experience over the. The first two to three days where I was alternating between intravenous Dilaudid and then Oxycodone. So I'd, like, like every. I think every four, like, every two hours. So I could get. I could get like. Like one of those every four hours. So, oxycodone, Dilaudid, Oxycodone, like, basically, I think in like, two or three hour increments or something like that. So heavily. Like, heavily. Heavily medicated.
- [21:56]
B
And would the pain start at, like, the second or third hour? Would it start to build again? Is that. Or did you.
- [22:01]
A
Oh, yeah. Yeah, you could feel it. It was. It was quite intense.
- [22:05]
B
Right.
- [22:06]
A
And they want you moving pretty quickly, like, figuring out how to sit up in bed. You got to, like, roll over and, like, prop yourself up. And that was incredibly excruciating. Like, the idea is they want to get you moving. They don't want you just laying flat. You can get blood clots. They want the blood moving. But this. This proved, like, very difficult for me, like, just trying to get upright in bed and my legs over the side and then standing up and then walking with a walker. I mean, that was perhaps the most painful thing I've ever. I've ever tried to do. And what's interesting about that and why I bring it up is twofold. First, as the surgeon told me like, later in my hospital stay, because I ended up staying, like, a day and a half longer than is typical or normal. Pain is a subjective experience. People have a variety of experiences with pain in terms of the degree of it, et cetera. And he's like, you're on the high end. We don't normally see people in as much pain as you clearly seem to be experiencing. Experiencing. Not that you're making it up or anything like that, but. But it was curious to him. And I'm like, I'm the voluntary suffering guy. Like, I thought I'd be on the other side of this.
- [23:28]
B
Right.
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A
You know, I thought it would be like, I would be like a warrior, you know, because I don't want to be on the meds and all that. Like, you know, I'm going to be the guy who can, like, tough, tough it out and get through it more easily than the average person who gets this procedure, which, let's face it, is probably, you know, not. Not taking care of themselves as. As well as I have. So that was interesting. In and of itself, interesting. And I actually asked Kelly Starrett about this, who's been very helpful to me. Shout out Kelly, podcast guest movement specialist. I said, why? You know, why was I having this extreme experience? Because you're more connected to your body. You're more sensitive to how your body's feeling. He's like, that's actually more common than you would think, which was interesting.
- [24:10]
B
Yeah, well, I'm like, I'm glad that doctors are so comfortable with other people's pain, you know?
- [24:15]
A
Yeah.
- [24:16]
B
The way they talk about your pain, it's like it's a subject. You're actually. What you're feeling. It's like, all right, Doc. Thanks, man.
- [24:22]
A
I know, I know. Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing. Without a real solution for athletes, I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run, constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them, or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike, where the treachery is obviously far more intense. Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion. I should say, helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions. With everyday frames designed for movement. Their secret is their proprietary Gecko torture technology. Patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions. And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level. Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference and wear without limits. Unlock 20 off your order with code richroll@roka.com that's R O-K-A.com we're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called God, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but you know, that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called Go. Go Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today. One of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies, they handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries. Now in over 5,000 locations across 20 states and available online, the Salty AF Gelada earned the untapped number one non alcoholic lager in the United States. And they're constantly creating bold new flavors almost every month that push the boundaries of what non alcoholic beer can be. Double IPAs, mouth watering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on on board by getting with go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code rich roll for 15 off your first purchase. Go. So it took me a lot longer to get comfortable and kind of standing up and, and like pushing a walker around. And what was interesting about that is the mental aspect of it because I think part of the pain experience Is this idea that your body is broken because you feel broken, and that if you move, you're gonna irreparably harm yourself.
- [28:17]
B
Right, right, right.
- [28:18]
A
You're gonna do irreparable damage and your body's trying to tell you, or your mind's telling the body, like, don't do that. But once you kind of do it and push, sit up, walk in and you're like, oh, I'm okay. You start to rewire the brain and the brain starts to like a mortal threat to the body, and the pain dissipates quickly. Even though the body hasn't healed that much, there hasn't been enough time for there to be like a physical change. That mental tweak actually dissipated the pain considerably, which was interesting. But anyway, I completely underestimated how challenging those first three or four days would be. But it shifted quickly. By the time I got home, I had gotten over the worst, most acute part of the pain. But I also underestimated despite being told a million times like, this is a long journey and you're going to have to be patient and there's not much that you're going to be able to do, this is a six month recovery period in order for those bones to fuse. I underestimated the physical and mental toll that it would take on me. And now we're 36 days into it. I would have thought by week three and a half or week three, I would at least be able to return back to work. All I'm doing is sitting down and having conversations and looking at computer screen, right? But I've just been exhausted. You know, I, I, I had to, like last week I was meant to do five podcasts and two public appearances that was on the schedule, right. And the week before I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to do that. And I had to cancel almost everything. I, I, I did one podcast and I, and I followed through on the two public appearances because I had committed to them so long ago and I was able to do it, but it took like a huge toll. And so essentially I just sleep all afternoon. Like I've been coming into the office here, but I have to leave around like noon and sleeping from like 1:30 or 2 to like 4 every day. And just other than walking around doing not much of anything. And there's a mental toll with that, right? Like a languishing, it feels like COVID lockdown, except worse.
- [30:30]
B
Right?
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A
You know, because you can't move your body physically and then you feel like making me Feel like in that headspace.
- [30:36]
B
Again and also emotional, right? You're like, I should be doing the I shoulds.
- [30:41]
A
Must be populated the I shoulds, you know, but so that's, that's the opportunity, right. So I went into this very intentional, like, okay, I'm going to be sidelined. Like, I can be pissed about it or I can resist it, but where's the opportunity? You know what happens when you can't outrun your discomfort? You can't lose yourself in productivity or work as a distraction from, you know, sitting with yourself and instead just trying to embrace that which has its own challenges.
- [31:10]
B
Right? It is, you know. Yeah.
- [31:12]
A
So that's been, that's been difficult as well, I bet.
- [31:14]
B
Man. Well, first of all, 36 days is not very long.
- [31:19]
A
It feels like a long time.
- [31:20]
B
No, but it's not like, like for this procedure, I mean, it's like, it's not long anyway. But 36 days for what you went through, like, it's amazing that you had that much on the schedule already, you know, like, it proves how much you had to carve out and how in demand you. Your schedule is. And so that's interesting, like, to that perspective of 36 days, it feels like a long time for you because each day is just stretching out, but really in healing, you know, like, if you had. I just had like this weird strain and it's four to six week injury recovery. 36 days isn't even six weeks, and that's just like a muscle strain. So I'm not surprised that, that it's taking a little bit longer than that to, to feel good. But it's amazing that you, you let us in. I remember seeing the walker, you on the walker in the hospital. I remember seeing like you talking us through this on social media. It's been interesting to watch your recovery. And one thing that struck me was actually that it was, was it seemed pretty fast to the point where getting up and walking and feeling all right, like, to me it felt like, wow, that was like week one or so or week. The end of, beginning of week two, where you're like, wow, you're more. This is happening faster than I thought.
- [32:33]
A
That gets tricky though, because I did feel so much better all of a sudden once the really kind of terrible acute pain dissipated. And even though everyone's like, you got to take it easy, you're really not supposed to do anything, you know, I felt like I could just go out and walk 10 miles and I would be on my treadmill at home and realize like, oh, man, I walked three miles.
- [32:55]
B
Really?
- [32:56]
A
Like, I'm just, like, watching videos or, you know, looking at my phone or what. I'm walking so slowly, but on a treadmill, Right. And it didn't feel taxing in any way, but that was a mistake, you know, that I quickly shifted, you know, back towards. So, yeah, it felt. That's the thing. Like, this is not a linear thing. I realized, like, oh, you know, I really can't be doing that, Obviously. You can see I'm wearing a brace right now. I have to wear this brace every time I'm sitting up. And I'm not even allowed. I can take a shower, but I can't get in a pool or use the sauna. Can't do a cold plunge or anything like that. They don't want any submersion of the wounds because even though they look like they're healed, they're so deep that they take forever to heal. And that's, like, the main pain now is around the incisions.
- [33:49]
B
Wow.
- [33:49]
A
So.
- [33:49]
B
So. So does it hurt now just sitting here?
- [33:52]
A
Yeah, it's. It's uncomfortable.
- [33:54]
B
Yeah.
- [33:54]
A
And I'm actually not supposed to sit in this position for very long, so I'm making an exception for the podcast. Like, they want you upright and moving around. I bought these zero gravity chairs.
- [34:05]
B
Okay.
- [34:06]
A
They're just. There's nothing fancy about them. They're just like lawn chairs. But, you know, they have that recline, you know, where you're. It just relieves pressure on your back, so you're kind of laying back in them. Okay, but now I got to figure out how I can work and use a computer.
- [34:22]
B
Well, I guess you don't have to. You still have a little bit of time.
- [34:24]
A
But what am I supposed to do while I'm reclining in this zero gravity chair?
- [34:28]
B
You could speak. You could. You could. Your writing could be voice. Have you ever thought about that? Like, talking it out?
- [34:34]
A
I've tried to do a little bit of that. The problem, the bigger thing is, is. Is my inability to maintain focus for very long. Like, I have a stack of books by my bed stand, but I can't read for more than a couple pages without, you know, basically losing track of what I'm doing. So that's something I didn't expect either.
- [34:56]
B
One thing, that theme that has kind of. I wanted to ask you about is this idea of things I see when I go walk very slowly is that. Have you have. Have you had any kind of realizations about the slow path and. And what you get out of the slow path? Have you had any or are you still too in it to like, you know, to see kind of the messages of this process you're going through?
- [35:23]
A
Yeah, I don't know that I could articulate the rewards beyond the self awareness of it all. You know, obviously there are benefits to slowing your life down. And I'm somebody who has always lived their life in the fast lane, somebody who is, whose default mode is like hyper productivity. And you know, work always provides a safe haven for any kind of emotional discomfort. You know, I love my work and so it's easy to kind of just lose yourself in that. And I'm always catching myself when I'm not present because I'm ruminating on something I need to do or someplace I need to be, etc, and when you strip all that away and you're forced to confront yourself as you actually are, and there's nowhere to run, no way to hide, no escape, and you're just at home, like, how do you, how do you, how do you contend with that? Like what happens when you have to just turn your gaze inward? And I think this is all divinely orchestrated for my, my benefit and my growth. Because despite all of the changes and transformations that I've had in my life, this is the thing that is sort of sitting right out there waiting for me, you know, this idea of being okay with who you are irrespective of external reward or influence. So that's the lesson that I'm trying to learn and lean into right now.
- [37:11]
B
That's interesting. You know, I've, I've had a very similar. It's so interesting and maybe it's that we've had other discussions about childhood or X, Y and Z, you and I, but like I've had the same path. Like I've been reading a lot of Thich Nhat Hanh lately. And for those who don't know, Thich Nhat Hanh is a Vietnamese Buddhist legend. He was, he awarded, he was nominated, not awarded the Nobel Peace Prize by Martin Luther King. So he was connected to Martin Luther king in the 60s as a, as a Vietnamese monk. But he was educated overseas and he ended up founding a monastery, excuse me, called Plum Village in France. And he's just an amazing thinker writer. He's got a million books out there and he was talking about being kind to yourself. And in the early chapters of this book, the way he talked about it was like, address yourself as dear one, dear one, you're going to be okay. As if you're addressing your child, your inner child. That didn't get X, Y or Z, didn't feel nurtured or whatever, felt somehow out of sorts. Way to solve your, your own emotional imbalances is to address your inner child. Dear One. And it sounds so corny, like, like I, like I couldn't even imagine myself doing it.
- [38:33]
A
It's more than corny. It's like, it's like cringeworthy.
- [38:36]
B
You recoil from that, Dear One. Talking to yourself that way. And more often I'm more comfortable saying you motherfucker. You know, like that's how I'm more comfortable. But not really. But like, like in some ways I'm more more comfortable with giving myself an order or like less in order, but more like why did you do that in the aftermath? You know, like why, why did you react that way? Why you could have done X, Y and Z? He's saying when that happens, Dear One is, you know, just Dear One, it's going to be okay. You're going to be okay. And by the end of the book, it's not even a long book, this last book called, I think it's called you are Here Now. By the end of the book, it's so deep that practice that I was thinking anytime I feel a pang of jealousy or envy, that happens. Most of my envy that I feel within me is around professional stuff like see other writers who've done X, Y and Z or I've had struggle with this project. So you feel it. And I'm never proud of that envy when it surfaces. But the antidote is really you are enough as it is. Like you are enough as it is. And it's what sounded so cringe worthy before has really helped me. I can already feel it. And I've only been thinking, it's almost like the envy just completely dissipates. It's gone and you don't even have an impulse for it anymore. And that's only in a couple of weeks. And so it's interesting that you say that like that this revelation of you are enough. Because we don't. We might know it intellectually, but we don't allow ourselves to feel that way.
- [40:16]
A
Yeah, I understand the concept and I agree with it. Do I feel it? Can I experience that? That's what I'm aiming for, right? So as somebody who, you know, kind of comes from a place where love is transactional and your worthiness is a function of your ability to achieve and produce, I can have self understanding about the wrong headedness of all of that. That everybody is deserving of love. And that love is something that you should give and receive unconditionally. And it's the way I attempt to parent my children in ways that are different from the way that I was raised. But it's so deeply embedded. Like, you're enough. Like, what do you mean? I'm not enough? I'm only valuable to the extent that I can provide to take care of other people, that I can distinguish myself as special or be noteworthy in any of these ways. And when I reflect back on my life, all of these decisions that I've made, I do this thing in a public forum. Why am I doing it this way? Is it because it results in kind of external validation? Of course. That's part of it is my makeup. It makes me feel like I am. That I have worthiness or value, or it's a way of, like, filling that hole, right?
- [41:39]
B
Yeah.
- [41:40]
A
But if you take all of that away and say, what if it all goes away? Can you still feel that way about yourself? Do you feel like you have value outside of any kind of external situation? And it also, you know, in this period of forced repose, like, is challenging all the structures of identity that I've built around myself. I'm an ultra endurance athlete. Well, now I can go out on these walks really slowly and take pictures. Like, am I on ultra? I'm like, I'm certainly not right now. You know, it's like, so. So it's challenging all of those structures that, you know, we all create to create narratives about who we are. Right. And when you take that away and you have a blank canvas, what are you left with? And what are you going to make of that? And what does that mean? And so am I worthy outside of the things that I do in the world or the things that I chase?
- [42:37]
B
It's interesting two things to piggyback on that is, like, I mean, obviously I feel the same way as a person in, like, writing was my vocation and being and having that kind of plug into the media. Part of it is you want to raise your voice, you want to express, you know, like, we intake so much from the world, and we want to input upon the world in some way. But also the other part of it is this idea of sovereignty. Like, we don't want to take some job everyone else takes. We don't want to, like. So it's not just external validation. That's a piece of it. And I think this is for you, too, because you'd done the more paved path before, and you went off road with this, and there was no guarantee that it was going to be some external validation exercise. It very well could have gone a different way. And so I think it was also a parallel quest for some autonomy in life so that you can figure out a way through this adulthood without having to be the typical grownup doing X, Y and Z to accumulate all the different things we're supposed to accumulate. And so I think that's two things. And they're both those thrusts. I think they sometimes take turns on which one's ahead. Because when you get to the point where it's working and you don't even think about the autonomy part anymore, then you're thinking, oh, it must be just, I'm extra. That's not true. Like, you know, they both, they both kind of are parallel reasons. And the other thing I was thinking was, remember when David Cho, you had him on and he asked you, could you take six months off? And he confronted you with that, like, what would you learn? He's basically implying, I forget what his exact words were, but it was like, what would your life. What would you think of yourself if you took six months off? Who are you really? You know, and you're like, no, I could never. And at the time I thought, well, he's got kids, he's got. There's bills to pay. There's like, whatever. But now I see it's not just that, that you were talking about. You couldn't take six months off for more than just that reason.
- [44:43]
A
It's as if God or the universe was speaking through David Cho and challenging me directly. Because that was very confronting. Like, if you were like, what would that be like? Like that I, you know, talk about recoil. Yeah.
- [44:56]
B
You didn't consider it for a second. No, no, no.
- [44:59]
A
So it's that idea of, you know, the universe knocks, you know, when it's trying to get your attention, when there's a piece that you need to learn or a lesson for you to, you know, consume or a growth arc that is available to you and it knocks gently, you know, trying to get your attention. Hey, there might be something to look at over here. David Cho, six months, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. You know, so it has to knock louder.
- [45:29]
B
Yeah.
- [45:29]
A
At least in my case, to get my attention. And that knock has to kind of visit me with pain. Right. So here we are, and I'm in this six month period where, I mean, you know, it's different. So it's not like I'm going off, off the radar completely, but I am being forced for a six month Period of time to change everything about the way that I'm living. And there's something deeply uncomfortable about that. One of the things that I've always prided myself on with this podcast is, like, I've never missed a week. I hold on to that. Like, I'm gripping on. I've never. I'm so consistent. You know, consistency is everything. And not once has a Monday gone by where there wasn't a podcast. And now we do, you know, every other Thursday, like this one, but new content every time, no matter what. And now it's like, okay, well, what would happen actually if you missed a week and you couldn't. Would everything fall apart? Like, of course not. Like, nobody. Nobody would care. Right. And so one of the things I have been able to do is just to be okay with that. Like, I literally haven't checked my email in, like, in a month. And the world didn't end. And we've put up some, you know, past episodes here and there. We still have a new episode every Monday, and we're probably not going to run out, but, like, what if we did? What if I just went dark? Would it be that big of a deal? I don't think so. Look at Marc Maron. He just announced after 16 years that he's, like, done.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:56]
A
Going out on his own terms. Like, good. Good for him.
- [46:59]
B
Yeah, it's different. It'll be interesting. I mean, you know, he probably has a million acting projects already lined up.
- [47:04]
A
Well, now his acting career is really.
- [47:06]
B
Starting to take off, so I think it's a little bit different because he's got. Got something equally kind of sexy to. To, like, launch onto. It would be different for you because you'd have to really kind of consider your next move in a different way.
- [47:20]
A
I couldn't economically afford to stop, but I think this part of the sentiment behind it is something that I share. Like, yeah, he's burned out. He's done two a week for 16 years, and I don't think he's missed either. And he's talked to everyone.
- [47:34]
B
Yes.
- [47:34]
A
At this point.
- [47:35]
B
Yeah.
- [47:35]
A
But the landscape has changed. Like, it's a lot different now. There's pressure on him to do video, which he never wanted to do. Like, he knows that to be relevant, he would have to do that, and that just is antithetical to his whole thing. And God bless him for never bending on that and maintaining the purity of WTF the way it's always been. But there is something dispiriting about how. How crowded the marketplace is. Now, I mean, you remember when he had Obama on his podcast and what a big deal it was like, of course, like when you had a big guest, like there was an, it was sort of an event, you know. And now like everybody's doing podcasts and everybody has a podcast. So it's very difficult to distinguish yourself and to be a signal in the noise. So that takes a little bit of the fun out of it. But again, that's all, all external stuff. Like for me, I want the motivation to be purely internal. Like I'm curious about this person, I want to learn so that I can grow. And then I want to be able to share that in service to other people. And when I focus on that and let go of all that external stuff, like, oh, we're not in the rankings the way that we were, or what's happening on YouTube, like I can get caught up in all of that. But that's really trivial in comparison to the substance of what it is that you're actually trying to do and making that the core motivation for the entire enterprise. If you've ever wondered what generations of nutritional wisdom looks like bottled, meet Bragg, the OGs and original architects of Whole Food Wellness. Their organic apple cider vinegar is a perfect example of thoughtful, clean nutrition. It's non GMO, USDA organic, produced in the USA with absolutely no additives or processed sugars, made with 100% apples and naturally fermented.
- [49:35]
B
Of course.
- [49:36]
A
It's kind of like this perfect and versatile and super healthy addition to salad dressings and a wide variety of recipes for this tangy, nutritious boost. From the very beginnings of my personal adventures in nutrition and well being. Eighteen years ago, Bragg, I gotta tell you, was the first brand I turned to. I actually talk about this in my book Finding Ultra, which came out 13 years ago. And it's a brand that I've remained unwaveringly loyal to because their products are best in class, because of their insane commitment to quality, because they're, they're a B corp, which speaks volumes about their integrity and commitment to the ethics of both health and production. And not for nothing, because Bragg is a brand that's been doing things right for over 100 years. 100. A century of walking their talk. So check it out. They've got tons of products and when you use the code richroll, you will get 20% off your first order when you visit bragg.com visit bragg.com b r a g g.com to get your daily dose of wellness. If you're a longtime viewer of this show, then you already know that I've spent plenty of episodes diving super deep into the evidence based science behind the many health benefits of fasting, from disease prevention all the way to health sports. At the same time, there is this elephant in the room which is acknowledging that foregoing all food for extended periods of time, well, it's kind of a big ask and intimidating enough to dissuade many who would otherwise benefit from this practice. But what if you could tap into those benefits without committing to a full on fast? That is the question my three time guest, Dr. Valter Longo, one the of the world's top longevity researchers, set out to answer. And after decades spent looking into this, at USC's Longevity Institute, he developed the Fasting Mimicking diet which is a protocol now accessible to everyone through Prolon. Prolon's got this five day program that gives you the benefits of fasting, supporting healthy blood sugar and boosting energy and even enhancing skin without going full on fast mode. Everything you need comes in one box. You open it up, it's all laid out in easy to read instructions. All five meals are packaged right in here for ease and convenience. And you've got soups, you got snacks, you got beverages all dialed in for each day and the science backs it up. Three consecutive cycles can drop your biological age by 2.5 years and trim one in and a half inches off your waist. Amazing. To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering all of you, my audience, 15% off site wide plus $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five day nutrition program, just visit prolonlife.com richroll that's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F E.com richroll to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife.com richroll but the story I wanted to tell, it's back to the Thich Nhat Hanh thing of like Dear One, you know. Yes, Dear one Adam. So here's a different lens on that, okay? I was talking to my friend Chris Davis on the phone the other day who's just the best friend of the pod from way back in the day. Just a man of great wisdom and wit and he's somebody who has had a really hard go of it in terms of his health. He's had more operations than you can imagine and more challenges in and out of the hospital surgery. So I call him because he's had a million surgeries and this guy is the Embodiment of PMA day. He's always in the best mood. He always tells you everything is fantastic. But physically, like, you know, he quietly, you know, has challenges that most people can't imagine. And I was starting to feel really down. Like, my mental. Like, I started to really just. I was really struggling and feeling depressed and kind of in the darkness with this whole thing thinking, like, the window has to lift at some point. It's been over 30 days at this point. Like, I just don't feel like myself, and I can't move in the ways that make me feel like myself. And there's a discomfort there that has been very dysregulating to me. And so I do what I've learned to do in sobriety, which is you reach out and you. You ask for guidance from people who have experience with this kind of thing. And nobody has more experience than. Than Chris. And he said that he. He. He had a relationship with Arlie Ermey. Do you know who Arlie Ermey is?
- [54:34]
B
No.
- [54:35]
A
Arlie Ermey was the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket.
- [54:38]
B
Okay.
- [54:39]
A
You remember that guy? Of course. Like, the most iconic.
- [54:41]
B
Yes.
- [54:42]
A
Drill sergeant ever rendered on film.
- [54:44]
B
Yes.
- [54:44]
A
Right. Like, the hardest. Like, imagine Arlie Ermey shouting at David Goggins. Like, what would happen? You know, I think he might intimidate David. This is how. This is how.
- [54:55]
B
Like, hardcore young David.
- [54:57]
A
Yes. Yeah. Right. Anyway, apparently Arlie had had a, like, open heart surgery or some heart surgery of some form or another. And Chris was talking to him about the same thing that I reached out to Chris for. And Arlie told Chris, here's the thing. When you undergo anesthesia, you think you're asleep, but your brain is actually awake. Like, in a certain way. There's an awareness in your mind, an unconscious awareness of what's happening to your body. And obviously, you've undergone a trauma, and there's a part of your brain that is, like, living in that reality, even though you don't have a memory of it. And you have to make amends to your body. You basically have to say, I'm sorry for putting you through that.
- [55:50]
B
Interesting.
- [55:51]
A
And it's going to be okay now. And this is part of the healing. And I know what you endure, like, having a conversation with your body to essentially to apologize. To apologize for it, like, and say, I'm take. This is part of taking care of you. I know. Like. Like telling a child, like, who. That they have to do something that they don't want to do or whatever, because it's in their best interest and making that amends, which is a form of. Of saying, dear one, like, I am caring for you, and I know it didn't feel like that, whatever, and like walking them through that. And I thought that was such a unique, such a unique kind of, like, practice, but because it comes from Arlie Ermey, it's like it kind of takes the cringiness off the Dear One Thich Nhat Hanh version of it. But it's the same thing, right?
- [56:41]
B
It's the same thing. Dear one, do you hear me? I am so sorry.
- [56:49]
A
I thought you'd like that story.
- [56:50]
B
I love that story. Story. But it's true. Like, you know, it's amazing to think that dialogue works because what you were doing, what your choice you made, we don't know for a fact. But it very well could have added 10, 15, 20 years to your life. Because if you do end up with drop foot and your mobility is really compromised, that is the number one killer. Right?
- [57:14]
A
Well, I did it for a reason. Yeah, but. But that reason might not be what you think. Like, it.
- [57:20]
B
That's right.
- [57:20]
A
Like, it could be, like, you could easily say, well, he did it so he could get back to running and competing. Maybe I'll do that. I don't know. I will tell you this. The surgeon was not exactly sanguine about the prospects of me being able to return to running. Personally, I'm very confident that I'll be able to. And I know other people have had this procedure who have gone on to do ultramarathons and Ironmans and stuff like that. I just have to not screw it up right now and get ahead of myself because my inclination is to, like, always do more, you know, do more than what's recommended. And all I can do right now is impede or interrupt or derail the process. But the weird mental tweak is every time I move, you're not supposed to bend, lean, or twist. And obviously you're going to move your spine a little bit every time you move is that you're, you're, you're going to break something. Like, I'm going to screw it up. You know what I mean? I'm going to. Somehow I'm going to do something in the. That that whole. All the alignment's going to get thrown off and it was all for not. I'm going to have to do it again. Like, apparently this is a common fear, but it's always with me. Like, if I bent, oh, my God, like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to mess it up.
- [58:26]
B
It's always with you. So far it's only 36 days, so it makes sense that it's with you. It's, it's, it's good that it's with.
- [58:31]
A
You, but to your point, sorry, I just stepped on you.
- [58:35]
B
No, you didn't.
- [58:37]
A
Look, it would be great if I got back to a place and I could compete again, but that's not, not the motivation. Like, I just, I want to be well, I want to feel good in my body. I want to be pain free and I want to learn from this experience something that will give my life greater meaning. And I'm not sure that racing is going to. I've learned what I need to learn about that, but I think the real lessons are in the ones I most avoid that have to do with stillness and presence. And in one of those posts I shared this idea of going slow, to go slow. Right. Like I've written and spoken in the past about going slow, to go fast. This whole like zone two thing, like, you have to like build this base and foundation, you have to be patient, you have to go slow and you have, you have to exercise a different kind of discipline to hold back in order for the benefit that you can reap through that patience by being able to go fast much later. If you can, if you can, if you can really lean into that discipline. But the premise there is that you're going slow so that you can go fast later.
- [59:46]
B
Trying to get something.
- [59:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's two, there's two thing, two points here. The first being the whole, the whole point of going slow so you can go fast later. Yeah, but what if the point of going slow is to go slow?
- [59:58]
B
Right, right, right, right, right.
- [60:00]
A
Like, who wants that? But like, I think that's where the juice is. So what if it is just about going slow and there is no going fast later? Like, how does that feel? What would that experience be? Like, what could you learn about yourself? How does that challenge your expectations and your attachments about what your future looks like or might not look like, which is very confronting. And then the second piece of that is, is that there's still a race happening, right? You're going slow now to go fast later, and that's the way to win the race or the way to win the race is to just go slow consistently and then that's how you win the race. But is there a race? It's more than what if there was no race? Of course there's no race. No No, I mean, so what happens when you stop. Stop rushing or behaving or interfacing with life as if it is a race that you're attempting to win or at least be competitive in, so that you can extract something external that will make you feel good about yourself and make you feel whole. But if you take all of that away and you're just like, dude, this is it, you and me, right now, present conscious, there's nothing to be gained, there's nothing to be won. There is nothing else other than what is exactly happening right now. What if that's it? And I'm pretty sure that is it.
- [61:34]
B
Yeah.
- [61:36]
A
And again, it's something that's easy to talk about, but to actually feel into that. So that is. That's what I'm trying to do. It's hard to get poorly, I would say, most of the time.
- [61:46]
B
I mean, the fact that I'm frustrated.
- [61:48]
A
And resentful and taking it out on everyone around me, trust me, I believe it.
- [61:52]
B
I believe it. I believe it. But the fact that you're aware of this stuff is like, that's the. We're already on the path, you know, we're already on the path. And it's like, it's very hard to give ourselves permission in this time, in this space, in this day and age for the space and the silence, because the space and the silence used to be more accessible to everybody. There was. When you were in the garden, you were only in the garden. When you were, like, fishing on a river, you were only fishing on a river. Now the phone's there all the time. There's music. We don't have the. Because we've gone so far technologically, we've muddied all the water, and so it's hard to find those clear spaces. And so it's not easy to get to that place where the only thing that matters is presence. It's harder now than ever. We're more distracted than ever. And so, yeah, I mean, it's. It's deep stuff. You're. You're in it, man. You're in it.
- [62:52]
A
I've been distracting myself all along, though. Also, I think I've seen every, you know, movie and, you know, limited series that I've wanted to watch over the last 36 days. So.
- [63:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:06]
A
Sometimes.
- [63:07]
B
Sometimes it's just, you know, as simple as. Can you feel that warmth in your third eye? Do you feel like. Do you feel like. To me, that's like. Like presence, true presence for me. It comes and goes, you know, like, it's very hard for me to stay in it for long periods of time. And so, like, you know, you can't. That's one thing this podcast does for you. You're on point. You know, this is presence. You're giving your guest total presence. You're giving yourself presence. This has become kind of, in its own way, a ritual space for presence with another person. Person.
- [63:41]
A
Right. But that presence is invested in another person, in an experience, in curating something that hopefully is valuable for other people. Like, there's a lot of.
- [63:53]
B
Right.
- [63:53]
A
Attachments to that. Right. That, that take it out of the pureness of being present. Like just being present with yourself.
- [64:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:01]
A
Right. But I have, you know, use this time to double down on my meditation. And, yeah, you get those fleeting glimpses and moments that don't, don't stay long and don't visit predictably, irregularly, but give you just enough to see and feel what that's about. And the practice is about trying to bring more and more of that into your life and then allow it to infuse the other 23 hours of the day. It's not about that. Okay, you did your practice and now you live your life. How do you bring that, that experience of presence more and more into the interstitial moments of mundanity throughout your day?
- [64:46]
B
Yeah. Well, I'll end this whole Zen moment with this. I listen to the Jack Kornfield podcast sometimes. It's like a lot of his old Dharma talks and things, and in one of them, he talks about how he was with Tich Nhat Hanh, who's one of his teachers. He was with Thich Nhat Hanh somewhere, and he saw Thich Nhat Hanh get irritated with somebody, and it made him.
- [65:10]
A
So I was gonna say that would bring me such great joy, you know.
- [65:16]
B
It was like a relief washed over him. Yeah. You know, so it's hard to trust.
- [65:23]
A
Someone who, you know, doesn't do that because then you just think they're hiding something because they're. They're in the three dimensional world. Like, they have. They transcended the mortal coil, you know, so it's like, like, despite gurus behaving badly, when, you know, the sex scandal, you know, ultimately erupts, it's. There is like, there's disappointment, but there's also comfort in that. It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, he, you know, he wasn't, but.
- [65:47]
B
But that's different. Those guys are frauds. This guy's like the real thing.
- [65:51]
A
But still in a Human incarnation.
- [65:54]
B
Right, exactly.
- [65:55]
A
Right, exactly. Before we end this, should we talk a few minutes about la? You're wearing your Dodgers hat. I'm wearing my. I love la.
- [66:02]
B
I got you, bro Dirt.
- [66:04]
A
The news moves fast. There's going to be a week before this goes up. Anything can happen. But I think it is worthy of just taking a few moments to share some thoughts on what's happening in our beloved city. I mean, where are you at with everything that's going down right now?
- [66:23]
B
I mean, let's remind ourselves that we're only five months since the fires. Five months, that's not very much time. So that's like just the background of this.
- [66:35]
A
Well. And essentially 20, 25. Like look at everything that has happened this year alone. It's insane. Especially in this city.
- [66:44]
B
Well, where I'm at with it is, you know, I'm in. In the Craig Mod idea. We're gonna. We're gonna. Was it. Keep the light. Lightness over heaviness. So I wanna make sure if I say things that might be construed as political in some way that. Keep listening because what I'm trying. I'm going to get somewhere else. But what I want to say first is I am pro immigrant. I am pro immigrant. You know why? Because my grandparents and great grandparents were immigrants, so. Or my great grandparents were. My grandparents were born here. But. So it would be hypocritical for me to think. Think any other way because that's why I'm here. And so. And almost all of us feel that way, so. Or are that we don't all feel that way, but we are all results of immigration. And so if you look at the history of immigration from the first wave of Irish immigrants in the middle of the 19th century, they were considered invaders. They were disparaged. Nobody wanted them here. They were victims of the Irish, Irish potato famine. Famine. So they were refugees of famine and they moved here for a better life. But then you fast forward that there was Jewish and Italian immigration, there was Chinese immigration. Chinese immigrants built the railroads here and they were then banished. They stopped that. They didn't allow that anymore. Jewish and Italians came over around the same time and turn of the 20th century. That's when Moscow, my family, came over and they were thought of as alien creatures and not respected. And so this history of scapegoating immigration, Japanese, we all know about the internment during World War II. So this distrust of immigrants is kind of baked in the American soil. It's always been there. It's this fear of outsiders. And that's what we're seeing again. So everything that we're seeing now is a replay of something that's happened before. And I just want to say that I think it is. Any thinking, feeling person should really consider where your family came from. Because if you are an American, unless you're a Native American, you are an immigrant from somewhere. And so. And then obviously African Americans were brought here as slaves primarily. So that's different. But at the same time, they're not Native American either. So all of us are a conglomerate of. Of people from elsewhere or descendants of people from elsewhere. And so that's important to me. And I just wanna say that. First, second, it's just alarming to have Border Patrol in la. It's not surprising. It's not surprising. Cause we knew this was coming at some point, that this crackdown was coming. This is a campaign promise being fulfilled. But it is alarming to have it so close. I had ice 10 blocks from me yesterday in Santa Monica. So you see, see stuff happening. All the craziness was happening around downtown la and, and. But actually, it's not just there. They've been in Santa Monica since day one. They're at the Santa Monica courthouse probably right now. They were at Santa Monica High School. They were at construction site on 16th in Washington. They were in the Oxnard Strawberry Fields, which are what, 30 miles from here. So they're all over Southern California, and it's probably going to keep going. And so there's that. And then there's people that I know that I care about that are terrified, you know, that are literally hiding out or looking over their shoulders. And so all of that is kind of. I don't know how I feel about it. That's kind of what's just coming out right now. But like, that's what we're dealing with. And the last part, I'll say, is that it's hitting us hard at home because April, my wife, her parents were undocumented in Australia. And when she was 16, the Australian border Force banged on her door in the middle of the night and dragged her father away because he was undocumented. And that's even more personal because she was a really good tennis player as a junior, and so she was a nationally ranked tennis player in Australia as a junior and had been invited to play an overseas tournament. And since she was born in Australia, they thought it was okay for her to get a passport. But April didn't know her parents were undocumented. They were too proud to tell her. So she didn't have an option to research it to make sure it was safe. And so she just went ahead and did it. And that's what triggered the border force to come to her house. And he was dragged away, broke up the family. She's no longer close with either parent. She was an honor student that dropped out of high school after that. So her life could have gone haywire.
- [71:41]
A
I didn't hear that story at all.
- [71:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it could have gone haywire. It didn't. And so when we see this stuff happening, she's flashing to that like all these people, all these families that are getting damaged and why. And so that's the real question is why? And I don't mean legally why. Because what we're seeing here is not. You couldn't. It's not the same thing as internment camps or whatever. Like talking to some friends who I know they're philosophical about it. They know what they did. They know they came here. They didn't get documented. They understand that. But most people came because of economic. They're economic refugees. You know, there's all sorts of reasons people are coming here, but they are coming here out of the adventurous spirit of trying to make a better life for themselves because they don't see a way forward where they're from. And that's something I think we all can connect to. So what we're talking about here, to me, it goes much deeper than what's legal and what's not. Who has the right to this or that? We need to take a much more human view. And so the last piece I'll say is when I saw the footage of this guy getting chased down in the strawberry fields, my instinct was to go. Who makes their life? What choices do you make to where that becomes what you have to do with your time on Earth. To chase someone in the fields, this is not like chasing a bad guy or whatever. Yes, maybe a broke of a law, but you're chasing someone in the fields. But then I remind myself that we can't hate as a response. We can't hate the people that are enforcing these laws or being told to do X, Y and Z. We can't even hate the people that are. Are making the decisions that cascade down to that. Because then we can't outlast them. We can't win. So I guess that's the last piece of it. Our response to this cannot be hate. It cannot be. It has to be love in some form. And I'm proud of the city, man. I'm proud of. I've Read a lot of. It's the wrong thing. You're going to provoke Trump, blah, blah, blah. I disagree. I think you got to. To raise hell. And I'm not gonna be the guy in the streets on this, but I'm with you. And you just gotta do it peacefully because you can't. This is a major, major thing. We had a US Senator thrown to the ground yesterday. Twisted. I mean, like, that is handcuffed, too.
- [74:13]
A
Wasn't he handcuffed? Handcuffed, yeah.
- [74:14]
B
Yeah. This is authoritarianism. It's happening. So, you know, I think that I'm proud of the city, man. I'm proud of us. We've endured a lot already this year. I've never loved the city more, I'll say that.
- [74:30]
A
I think that's really well said. I would co sign every single thing that you just said. I thought that was really beautifully articulated. So I don't want to repeat any of that. I mean, I can get into the kind of more controversial and political aspects of it. Listen, it's been an interesting lens on how narratives are shaped and weaponized for political purposes. I shared a few things on my Instagram stories the other day, which is atypical for me. I don't. I'm not generally overtly political, but this is our city. And to me, what was unfolding was so abhorrent. And I felt. Felt an obligation and a responsibility to do the least amount. Right. And I'd been in downtown Los Angeles the day before. I was there last Sunday morning. I saw the National Guard. This was early in the morning, so things hadn't really begun yet. But I saw where all the National Guard vehicles and soldiers were being stationed. And I saw how all the pieces of the puzzle were kind of coming together and what the setup was going to be for the afternoon and the evening. And I just think that, I mean, does it even need to be said like, the vast, vast majority of immigrants here are good people trying to do the right thing. They're trying to fill out all the paperwork and do it the right way. There's a lot of aspersions being cast on, like, well, just get your status or whatever. As you know, I'm sure with April, like, this is not an easy process. It's very difficult. It's very drawn out. It could take years and years and years. And now there's a threat of deportation just for trying to do the right thing. Like, if you go to the office, like, what are you going to. What are the consequences that you're going to suffer as A result of that, obviously we need sound immigration policy and the Democrats have a lot to account for, for basically, you know, help being, being a co creator in the situation that we're seeing now. Like if we had had sound immigration policy, would we be here right now? But the way in which this is being weaponized as a means to strengthen autocratic rule is something I cannot stand silently on the sidelines and say nothing about. Certainly if there are criminals out there or people who are abusing the process, like let's, you know, let's, let's exercise due process in this regard, but let's maintain our humanity here. And when I see the ICE and the National Guard and the way that they're being deployed across Los Angeles, this is a function of an authoritarian who is trying to consolidate power. Point blank. This is textbook. This is right out of the rule book of like how you do this very thing. And I think it's important to note that the National Guard, which was deployed by the administration as an overreach of executive branch authority and federal authority, was not deployed for the purposes of maintaining the peace. It was deployed to provoke and incite violent incidents which would then allow the administration to create a narrative to justify strengthening their grip. I've been watching Andor, you know, first of all, like, Andor is incredible. He's like the best thing on television. I love it. Season two is just, it's just God tier television created by Tony Gilroy, who, you know, master screenwriter, screenwriter of my favorite movie, Michael Clayton. But it's really about the beginning of the rebellion and how authoritarian rule and autocracy, you know, operates super interesting and has its parallels to what we're seeing right now. But basically, you know, this is instigation to incite fear, to catalyze violence, and to once again justify this further consolidation of power. Yeah, they want the clash. So I don't think it's helpful to play into that by doing anything violent. Like, I don't think that, like when, listen, first of all, this idea that like LA is ablaze and that, you know, the whole city is burning and there's riots, everywhere is nonsense. Like there's a one little area downtown where there's a flashpoint, but you know, LA's gigantic. It's operating peacefully.
- [79:17]
B
Yeah, but that was like three days ago.
- [79:18]
A
There are protests across the city that are all completely peaceful. Yes, but it's not helpful when you graffiti a Waymo and set it on fire. Like you're basically just playing right into this playbook. Nor do I think it's essentially helpful to wave Mexican flags around. Like, I understand. No, I understand that, but I don't think it's gets effective, you know, because you're basically creating a reason for them to, you know, adopt a narrative that gets used against.
- [79:48]
B
Yeah, that. That dates back. I mean, just historically, that dates back to the 1960s kind of Chicano power movement, which was a way of saying, hey, you know, this was Mexico once. So.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah, I understand. But it's sort of like it's the difference between being right and being effective.
- [80:03]
B
Right, right, right.
- [80:03]
A
You know what I mean?
- [80:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have a leader. You know, we don't. Like. Like, one thing that we don't have is, like, we don't have on the left a leader that. That. That gets everyone together behind anything. Like, we thought Obama might be that guy, and he was. But then, like, the progressives were irritated that he was a little bit too centrist or whatever. It was too moderate. Which is unfortunate that he was nibbled at on the left, because that really hurt us in terms of having unity. But. But it is what it is. Politics aside, it's like, we should be human, and we should be human first. And this is all going to bite us. By the way, who do you think picks the food in this country? Who does the hard work in Los Angeles? We are going to suffer more than most places, but California is the fourth biggest economy in the world. It's one of the biggest agricultural producers in the world. World. You know, there's thousands of farms just in Ventura county, which is like my. Like you're.
- [81:05]
A
We're.
- [81:05]
B
What are we, like, two miles from Ventura county line or are we already in Ventura County? So it's like, you know, this is going to bite us all. So it's not like it's just going to affect us. So there. There's. There's. There's downstream effects of everything, obviously, and this is one of those.
- [81:23]
A
So, yeah, there's the. There's what's occurring here in its isolation. But the more macro kind of implications of this, I think, are really quite dramatic. The idea that political dissent is illegal. It's basically what we're kind of walking towards. Right. Like, protest is crime.
- [81:47]
B
It's already happening because what. The presence of the National Guard has basically meant that LAPD mounted troops are going through and dispersing any protests because they're. Because. Because the city officials are so. And the governor is so concerned that. That the. That the National Guard will move in or the Marines will be deployed they're trying to prevent, they're trying to prove that's not necessary. So you're right. It's creating these kind of chain reaction of events.
- [82:12]
A
And regardless of your, your political leanings, like that should be of grave concern.
- [82:17]
B
I would hope so. Yeah. Anyway, I would hope so. I mean, it's interesting. One, one last thing is like we, when we first started Roll on, kind of responding to the moment of politics was kind of one of the things that we were doing. And then pretty quickly, not quickly, but at some point it became like it felt like we were just beating the same dead horse and it wasn't useful. And so we kind of, both of us went away from. And like, I just kind of, when Biden won in 2020, I was like, all right, I'm done. Like, I can't be outraged anymore. And even in the lead up to this election, I wasn't as outraged as some people. I was just like, okay, this is what it is. I'm going to stay in love and positivity and deal with the consequences as they come. And now they're coming. And so now we're speaking up, but we're not doing it out of, like, some sort of, like, desire to be political. It's actually the opposite.
- [83:06]
A
Yeah. I'm not doing this to Engagement Farm.
- [83:10]
B
No.
- [83:10]
A
You know, I'm reluctant about doing this because there's no incentive really, to doing that. Like, when I shared that stuff on, on, I mean, the amount of vitriol that I received, just, I was telling you earlier, at least a thousand messages, DMs, whatever, just hateful, hateful stuff. Like, I, I don't, I don't like getting that. And I thought what I shared was, you know, relatively mild. You know, it wasn't like I was trying to incite some kind of like, like debate over this whole thing. And, and so I'm always, I'm always conflicted about talking about these kinds of things because I think the show for a lot of people is a safe haven away from political discourse. And I'd like to respect that, and I understand that completely. While at the same time balancing that against the idea that if you have a large platform, what is your responsibility to speak truth to power when you feel that it's necessary and when it's in your own backyard and you see things going, going down that, that are alarming to the extent that these things are, I think that it is important to speak up and say something. And I know that by doing this, all we're going to do is reap hate upon ourselves. Like, it just, you know, it's a right. It's a thankless. It's a thankless job. But I think. I think it's important to do it. And that's why I decided to have this second half of this podcast be about this.
- [84:42]
B
Well, thank you for doing it and thank you for speaking up, because to be honest, I don't put politics on my page at all anymore. And I continue, I will not do that. But for me to be able to come here and express myself in a public way is cathartic for me. But also, I think that we're at a time where we do have to raise our voices in whatever way you feel like you can do. Doesn't have to be endless. But we should join the chorus because we're not saying any one party is superior. We're saying we have human values here and we need to stay true to our humanity no matter what. And so we all need the encouragement. You posting that encouraged me. Other people are also joining in. The senator yesterday who put himself in that position, you know, was encouraging. So there are people out there that are trying to. To. To stick their neck out, and, you know, this is one small way that we're going to do it. So I appreciate it.
- [85:51]
A
All right, man. Thanks, dude.
- [85:53]
B
Thank you.
- [85:53]
A
I think that's a good place to put a pin in it for today.
- [85:56]
B
This is, like, a record of the shortest podcast we've ever done together.
- [86:00]
A
Is it? How long have we been going? I don't think so. No, no, dude, we've been going a while.
- [86:05]
B
Okay, good.
- [86:07]
A
All right, that's it for now. We'll be doing more of this, of course, soon. Cool. And I'm still. I'm still upright. Hey, like.
- [86:15]
B
Yeah, you seem good.
- [86:16]
A
All right, I'm probably gonna crash.
- [86:18]
B
All right, let's get you to. Let's get you to bed.
- [86:21]
A
Thanks, everybody, for watching, subscribing, sharing the show. I appreciate you and look forward to more of this.
- [86:29]
B
Yeah, thanks, man.
- [86:29]
A
Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books, Finding Ultra Voicing Change and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director Dan Drake, content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace.
- [88:07]
B
Namaste SA.