B (5:14)

I mean, honestly, I was sort of insulated from all that. I mean, I missed the live event on Netflix because I was too busy going climbing. And then the next day we flew home and then went right back to our two young daughters basically having two crying babies that aren't sleeping very well. You know, I was like, oh, I don't know, I kind of missed the whole event part of it. I just had a great experience climbing and then went home and tried to go back to normal life.

A (5:37)

Going behind the scenes of it. I want to talk a little bit about like the, the plan versus the execution or the expectations and the reality. I remember we ran into each other in New York City like a handful of months ago and it was before this was even announced and we were kind of chatting about. I was like, is this happening? And you said yes. And I said, what is your sense? What's the degree of difficulty around this event? And you were pretty cavalier about it. Like I got it handled. But I want to know what it was like in the days leading up to the climb with the rain and all the, you know, all the people around you like this. It's well within your skill set but also like there's all this other stuff happening around you at the same time.

B (6:26)

Yeah, it was kind of one of those Classic things like, you sign up for. Well, I'm sure, you know, you sign up for triathlon or something. Like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then as the date starts to get closer, you're like, what if it's really hard? Like, what if it's not fine? Like, what if. What if I can't swim that well? Or whatever. And so I think in this case, I was. I was kind of like, oh, it'll be fine. It's not that hard. I'd sort of, like, superficially sampled it. It was like, okay, I can do this. That's good enough. And then I showed up there for the actual thing. And it turns out conditions had kind of changed in between the Scout. Like, the building was much dirtier. It was coated in the soot from the fireworks displays they do at New Year's. But so it's kind of like bicycle grease smeared all over the holds. So I was like, well, that doesn't help. And then it basically rained the whole week, and I was like, that doesn't help. And then I was sort of like, oh, it's a little bit stressful. But, I mean, I was still confident I could do the climbing. It's just. I kind of need some things to line up. And so the rigging crew, some of the. The crew that was involved with the filming, helped clean a bunch of the route. So it was, like, quite a bit better. And then the weather got good, and then it all sort of worked out fine. But definitely for a moment, I was like, oh, it's. You know, it's all a little intense.

A (7:26)

You're so low key about this.

B (7:28)

The other thing is that.

A (7:29)

Here's the thing, like, I. Because Adam Skolnick was there, and he was reporting back to me, like, what was going on there. Like this. I knew that there was this grease on the building that these fireworks had laid. You know, I'd put this, like, sort of sooty deposit on the building and that they were doing their best to clean it up.

C (7:44)

Up.

A (7:44)

But, like, that's a real problem, you know? And when I saw, like, the black on the bottom of your soles when you were doing the climb, like, that was. That was terrifying to see.

B (7:53)

Yeah. Not. Not crazy. I mean, so most buildings are dirty like that just from, like, urban air pollution, from the. The stuff coming off cars and, you know, soot and whatever. And so normally when you climb buildings, it is kind of gross, and you always get a little bit dirty. In this case, it was, like, really dirty. And it was and then particularly the, like, the texture of the dragons is already so slick that once you have, like, sort of grease on your fingers, it feels insanely slick. But, you know, we dealt with it. I don't know.

A (8:20)

I know in the. In the dress rehearsal, it. It wasn't sorted, right? Like, there was some real, like, is this gonna be okay?

B (8:28)

No, I mean, it still would have been okay. I mean, even if we hadn't cleaned it all, I would have managed with just basically wiping my hands every couple moves. I mean, this kind of like, it was all doable. It's just. How comfortable and how fun is it going to be? I mean, I think what made the event so great for me is that ultimately when I did the climb, it was felt comfortable. I had a good time. I was able to enjoy myself. I think that made other. Hopefully put other people at ease more, too. You know, people watching. I mean, how intense would it have been to watch that if I was, like, looked grip and I was frantically wiping my hands the whole way up? You'd be like, oh, God. It's like, you know, thankfully, it was able to be a lot more fun this way. And so I think, yeah, worked out well.

A (9:02)

The experience for millions of people all over the world was, you know, sweaty palms, looking away. You know, it was. It was very challenging for most people to watch.

B (9:11)

That's how challenging it was with me. And, you know, with good control, feeling good. Imagine if I look like I was going to fall the whole time. She would have been, like, leaving. Nobody would watch. You had a.

A (9:22)

You had a great deal of awareness, you know, of the fact that you were being watched. And it was clear, you know, almost, you know, after a few minutes, like, oh, you got a smile on your face. You're waving to the crowd. You're in control. You're in your comfort zone. And from that point forward, it looked as if like you were just having the time of your life.

B (9:44)

Yeah, I was having a really good time punctuated by effort. You know, it's like I had to pay attention for the moves. I had to be focused on the, you know, executing each of the bamboo boxes and everything. But the thing is, like, in some ways, the building is more. It's more like stop and go than rock climbing. Like, you do some hard moves, you get into a position, and then the positions, you can stand there, you're pretty stable because the footholds are big and you're kind of clamped onto the building. So basically, you're in, like, these very stable positions, and then you do Kind of hard moves in between them. And so I had to pay attention for the hard moves. And then once you're back into a restful position, you can, like, wave at people and play with the folks in the windows and basically, like, feel good. And so, yeah, I mean, I kind of took advantage of that and enjoyed the parts that I could and then. And then paid attention for the. For the hard moves.

A (10:27)

Was there any. At any point was. Was the people inside the windows distracting or somebody trying, you know, like, that threw you off in any way?

B (10:39)

No, not really. I mean, so part of the whole experience for me was that when I was doing the. The prep work, it was all slightly off putting to have so many people watching me when I was hanging on a rope. It's just, like, kind of annoying to have so many people with cameras at the windows, like, watching. And I felt very self conscious and I felt weird about doing the prep, and it just felt. I was like, oh, this isn't my normal rock climbing experience. But then finally, before the actual climb itself, like before the event, I sort of put that behind me a little bit, and I was like, you know what? Everybody's here supporting and wants to see a show, and, you know, everybody's psyched. It's like, I just need to embrace that and be psyched. And sort of. Interestingly, one of the things that makes the building hard is the pacing. Like, if you try to go fast, you get really tired. If you go really slowly that you don't get that tired, and it feels a lot easier. And so it's kind of like, well, if I take my time, go slowly, have a good time, like, play with people a little bit, then it also makes it easier in a way, because it just kind of naturally paces you. And so it's kind of like, oh, it's a. It's like a double benefit of, like, I might as well just enjoy the experience, go slowly, and that makes it easier, which makes it a more enjoyable experience. And so I kind of had this perspective shift where I was like, instead of wishing that there weren't so many people watching me, just be like, this is part of it. And right here for the fun.

A (11:47)

Yeah. You did it pretty fast, though. Hour and a half. I mean, I think that was faster than most people, including, like, your team expected you to.

B (11:55)

No, no, my team. Most of the team put money down on a bet on timing, and 90 minutes was basically, like, right in the middle of everybody's expectations.

A (12:05)

Talk to me about the flex when you were almost at the top and you did the arms free thing.

B (12:12)

Oh, that's just, I mean that was.

A (12:13)

Like you teed that up for the audience, right?

B (12:17)

I mean, it's just playing around. It's like playing on the jungle gym and dangling from the bars, you're like, you can, it's fun. Why not? Yeah. I mean it is a lot like hanging from the jungle gym. And you're just like, this is so cool. You're like, mom, look at this.

A (12:31)

I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a lot of videos on the Internet right now of dudes trying to do that pull up technique where you grab the sides and struggling and revealing just how difficult that is. Are you the most fit and jacked that you've ever been in your life?

B (12:49)

I am actually more fit than the normal. For me. I feel strong right now. I've been at home training for months and I'm all fired up, which is honestly the appeal of projects like this. Part of the fun of having a goal like this is to stay at home and train hard for several months and then like feel really good.

A (13:05)

What is like take me through a day in the life of the rigorous, you know, stages of the training. Like, what are you doing exactly?

B (13:12)

It's, it's not that rigorous. It's slightly embarrassing. I mean, mostly taking care of kids and things and, and dealing. But no, I, I've been kind of climbing two on one off at home. So two days of climbing, one day rest. I've been alternating going to this sport, climbing cave, so climbing with a rope, this overhanging wall. But this particularly this particular wall is, it's a very physical style, it's very muscly and so I felt like that would be good for the building. Cuz really the challenge of the building is kind of like full body fitness, like core and just like big muscles and so, so I've been climbing that cave two days a week and then training in my home gym two days a week. So that's like bouldering hard and then doing like workout stuff like pull ups and you know, muscle, whatever, all this stuff.

A (13:51)

Obviously you've, you've done much more technically difficult climbs, but the repetitive motion of like kind of doing the same moves over and over and over again, does that create like a unique, a different kind of fatigue to have to do those same moves and use those same muscles?

B (14:06)

Yeah, yeah, a little bit actually. So the whole building, I, I did the whole building leading with my left foot. So for any, I don't know if Anyone noticed in the footage, each floor is like two small moves and then one big move. And so on the small moves, you smear one foot and then you step up onto the other foot. So I'd smear my left foot and then step on my right foot. And then for the big move, you smear your left foot, smear your right foot, and then step up high onto the left foot. And so anyway, I was like leading with my left foot for the whole building and for soling, it just kind of helps to do some kind of steady routine because then you just know that you're doing the same thing each time. There's no room for, for like doubt to creep in where you're like, oh, am I set up the wrong way? Or like, does this feel different or is it slippy or whatever? So I was just like doing it the same way, the whole building. Anyway, so I finished the building, you know, great success, all good. And then we came down, we did a bunch of press stuff in one of their conference rooms and I gave a couple interviews. And after each interview I was like, I think my lower back is starting to hurt. I was like, I think, I think I might tweak my back. Like basically doing the same, like left footed high step move, you know, 100 and, I don't know, 300 times or whatever. I was kind of like, oh, I think, I think I tweaked something. But yeah, basically it is definitely more of a load than, than rock climbing. Rock climbing is so distributed, you know, like every move is different, so you're constantly using different parts of your body. The building is like, you're just hammering the same things over and over.

A (15:19)

At one point, like 80% up, you're like, yeah, I'm kind of tired. On the broadcast, everyone's like, oh, he's tired.

B (15:27)

No, but that's fine. I mean, it's like, it's like if you're running a race or something, you're like partway through, you're like, oh, I'm tired. But you expect to be that tired. It's all fine. I mean, it's part of the plan. But. But no, I, I was pretty pumped. I mean, you climb the, those bamboo boxes like they, they wear you out there. Yeah, it's tiring.

A (15:45)

Anyone else here. Were you. Was anyone else here worried about him running out of chalk? Like, I kept thinking, like, what happens if he runs out? It looks like it's getting low.

B (15:54)

No, I had a fill. I'm sure if I had to, I could ask somebody though. Nobody really had a chalk bag. No the rigors of chalk with them or anything. But no, my chalk bag was so full. It was. It was fine.

A (16:06)

The other thing I heard about the building is that the metal, like the. Some of the ledges were really bendy. Is that true?

B (16:14)

They all flex. But actually, so I found that. So a lot of the things that I was grabbing and stepping on, you know, moved. But actually, in some ways that's less scary. And the thing with rock climbing is that you grab edges and they feel totally solid right until they snap. And if they snap, they just fall off. And then, you know, if you're freestone, you may or may not fall to your death. So you're like, oh, that's terrible. And so climbing is like a little bit scary with things snapping. With the building, you're kind of like, well, none of these things are going to snap. It's metal. It all sort of like deforms, you know, and you can see how it's bolted on or screwed on in places. And you can see the caulking type stuff that's like holding it in, basically. You could feel it, like give a little bit, but you just know that it's going to bend before it breaks. And so I actually found that in some ways less where like it was, it was fine compared to rock climbing because rock climbing, like, you just don't know if something's going to break. And that's kind of the whole danger of free soling is you're like, what if a hold breaks? But at least with the building, you're like, well, I can feel how much give there is in all the materials.

A (17:08)

The dragons, though, looked. They didn't look like they were built for, you know, to bear load, to like handle weight. They look kind of like flimsy and definitely slippery.

B (17:17)

Dude, they're like, these giant metal things are insane.

A (17:19)

They're like red to me.

B (17:20)

No, no. Well, actually, though, I would, to be fair, the very first dragon I did, I mean, I'd practice them a little bit. I'd play it on them and they're like these super robust metal beams. Basically, they feel indestructible. But then my very first dragon, and this is a classic experience when you're soloing. As soon as you don't have a rope on it suddenly all feels a little bit different where you're like, oh, I didn't really think about it in this way before, but so I went up onto the dragon and the first moves onto the dragon, you pull like basically straight out on these big pinches. And I was suddenly like, I wonder what's holding this big beam on? Like, when you start just loading it, pulling straight out, you're like, I wonder how this is attached, actually. You're like, oh, geez. Like, it feels really robust, but you're like, how is it connected to the panel behind it? And then I was like, well, don't think about it too much. Like, you know, it's held all the other times, and it feels very secure, so let's just hope it is.

A (18:06)

For a layperson, it looked like you just flawlessly executed this, but in your mind, when you replay it, are there mistakes that you made or things that you think, maybe I could have done that better or differently? Like, what do. What do we. Like, what did we not see? When you do your own kind of, like, reflection on how you executed it.

B (18:26)

I think it was mostly pretty good. I mean, I think, like, the first dragon, I was nervous for sure. It's kind of like, oh, and it's interesting. I mean, the dragons pose this whole interesting thing because they actually are, for the most part, the easiest way to climb that section. When you're climbing the corners, it is easiest to get over the top via the dragon. You can off with behind it. Like, you can wedge your body in behind the dragon, but it's actually harder than it looks like it would be because the back of the dragon is this, like, tapered metal thing. It's all, like, weird and smooth, and so you can get in there and wedge your body in and squirm, but it's. It's pretty hard, and it's very undignified. So for television, I was just kind of like, nah. You know, it's like, if you're gonna have to climb this thing and it's pretty hard either way, you may as well do it the way that looks insanely cool, and it's super fun and, like, feels like a big kid jungle gym. And so anyway, but then every time you get into the position on the dragon, you are like, oh, that's kind of scary. You know, you're, like, stepping out over the abyss, and the whole city's down there, and you're like, this is kind of extreme. It's, like, pretty slippery also, because the material on it, it's, like polished chrome or something. The dragons felt so slick compared to the rest of the building.

A (19:28)

Yeah. Was there grease deposits on the dragons also?

B (19:31)

No, they were super buffed. I'm not sure what the deal is, but I think they're so slick that they just don't accumulate, like, debris on them the way that the rest of the building did. But. So the buildings were super smooth, or. Sorry, the dragons were super smooth. But then whatever you have on your hands from climbing on the building, you feel slick when you grab them.

A (19:48)

I mean, when you were wiping the black. The grease off your shoes with your hand, I'm like, well, now it's on his hands.

B (19:55)

Well, I was like, licking my palm and then grinding with your palm. That's fine. That's normal. Do that all the time.

A (20:03)

The real variable that got introduced in this for you seems to be, from my perspective, just the circus aspect of it. Not only all the people, but that comes with expectations. This is a live broadcast. There's all these individuals involved. There's expectation that this is going to happen. It has to happen at this time. And obviously, everyone is concerned about your safety, but there's a whole other machine at play here. And so how are you managing, like, compartmentalizing that or dealing with that part of it? Because it seems like maybe that was. If there was a stressor on you, like, that was it.

B (20:41)

That was definitely part of the stressor. So from my hotel room, I could look down onto the video village that, like, was dealing with the whole live event. So it's like 100 people in tents. It's like a whole crazy thing. And so, you know, from your room, you'd look out and be like, there are all these people working on this project. Like, sure hope I can do the thing. You're kind of like, geez. So, yeah, there's definitely a little bit of stress around that. And also, just doing a live event felt different for me than, you know, I've done a ton of climbing documentaries and things like that over the years, but those are pretty chill. You just do them on your terms, you know, when the timing feels right with your friends. The live event also just had this whole technical aspect to it as well, where there's, like, all this other equipment, all that, like, they ran fiber up and down the whole building. They have to transmit everything from the cameras. It allows you to go live. And so basically they were. The date and the timing all kind of mattered more because a bunch of the crew that was working on the live component of it, like, had to go to the Grammys the next week. And you're kind of like, they need all the gear to go to the Grammys. And I'm kind of like, normally when I'm trying to time one of my climbs, I'm not thinking about when the Grammys are, you know, I'm kind of like, like, who freaking cares about. You know? And so there was like this whole. There's this whole other component to it that I was like, oh, this is, like, kind of stressful, but in a way, you just have to put all that aside and just focus. And. And to be fair, production did a really good job of insulating me from all the. The stress of it. And actually the production company freaking got me a ping pong table for my hotel room. And I just played ping pong half the time. I was like, this is amazing.

A (22:01)

You had the ping pong table in your hotel room?

B (22:04)

Yeah, yeah. It was crazy. It was the first time I've ever been. Felt like talent or something, you know, I was like, is this like, do I have a writer? Like, I don't even know what that is. But now I have a ping pong table, like, sick. They did. They did it as, like, a fun gift because the showrunner also is very good at table tennis and he wanted to play and I don't know, but they put me in this hotel room that had, like a corner. It's like a corner suite thing or something. I don't know. But I had, like an extra space, so we had a ping pong table. It's super fun.

A (22:28)

In thinking about, like, managing the responsibility of, like, dealing with the expectations part. So days leading up to this. It's raining, it's raining, it's raining, it's raining. You're out there, like, reconing. It's wet, there's grease on the building. Is it getting cleaned off? We don't know. The clock is ticking. The Grammys are on the horizon. So, like, you know, had you woken up that morning and it wasn't a bright, warm, sunny day, and maybe, you know, it was more in the. Like, could. Should we do it today? Should we not? Like, like, that was the big worry, right? Like, and. And would you like, where's that line where you're like, okay, let's do it? Because if I don't, like, all these people are going to leave and, like, this whole thing's going to fall apart and it's not going to happen?

B (23:12)

Yeah, well, that's the thing that I worried about, is that it wouldn't be a clear decision one way or another where you're kind of like, well, it rained 45 minutes ago. It's probably mostly dry. It's still kind of socked in. It might rain again in an hour. How quickly can I finish it? You know, I was worried about kind of like a mud decision like that where you're kind of like, ah, I'm balancing a bunch of different factors. Thankfully though, it just turned out that was a non issue. I mean the day worked out great and it was, it was perfect. But we had tons of different contingency plans for timing and you know, I mean, yeah, but that would have been the worst case scenario where you're kind of like, well, it's sort of gray, it's sort of rainy, but it might go and, and if we don't go now, then we like lose the whole broadcast, the live broadcast entirely or something. I don't even know. But thankfully it didn't, it didn't play out that way. But I suppose that's kind of the stress of a live event. And in a lot of ways that was the challenge of this whole project is being able to just handle the stress or like handle to compartmentalize all that and just be like, you know what, I know how to climb. I'm going to focus on the climbing, let everything else just kind of play out.

A (24:09)

What is your strategy for that? Do you have like a routine like the morning of, like what are you doing to get into the frame of mind to do this thing?

B (24:18)

Freaking playing some table tennis?

A (24:20)

Yeah.

B (24:20)

No, no, no, just kidding. No, the morning of actually I've already kind of forgotten. I think I got up and chill morning. I think maybe did some stretching and stuff. Rolled a little bit. I had like a foam roll, I had a little edge I could pull on to like warm fingers up a bit. I don't think I did a hotel gym session that day and then basically just went down, had breakfast and went to the building. But I think I did some warmup stuff.

A (24:42)

Maybe you didn't go to the, you didn't do a gym workout before you climbed the building?

B (24:46)

Well, I mean we've been using the hotel gym because we're all super jet lagged and so it's like you just get up super early and use the hotel gym and in some ways doing a bit of movement ahead of time did actually feel better. Um, you know, just because, I mean like the first move off the ground is not that easy. I mean it's, it's not, you know, it's not the hardest part of the climb. But getting off the ground is not trivial and there are all these fricking people watching you and it's like slightly embarrassing. So I wanted to feel slightly warmed up when I got there just so that I'd feel Confident getting off the ground.

A (25:13)

What was the hardest part?

B (25:15)

Just the bamboo boxes doing eight overhanging segments. They're all sort of the same, and they're just tiring.

A (25:25)

As you got higher and the wind started to get kicked up and all that sort of thing. Did you feel the building swaying at all? Was that an aspect of it? It wasn't doing that at all.

B (25:36)

Well, I was swaying in the wind. I mean, the wind was pretty intense, and the wind was ripping around the southeast corner, which is the exact corner that I was climbing. And so, I mean, this is just kind of a freak thing of the way the weather was and where the storm system's coming from and whatever, but. So it was very strong wind. And I don't know if you could see in the broadcast, but up higher, there were a few places where I was climbing on the left, and then I traverse across the windows and get to the dragon. And then when I'd reach around to the dragon, all of a sudden I'd sort of feel the full brunt of the wind coming from around the dragon. It was like. It was pretty gusty. I was like, oh, because I was slightly sheltered if I was on the left rut. I was less sheltered if I was on the middle rut. And then when I was on the dragon, depending which side and everything. And then as I got higher on the tower, like, one, you're higher, so it's stronger wind. And then two, there was less building kind of sheltering me. So I was just. Yeah, I mean, the wind was, like, pretty intense at the top. Yeah. I mean, like, had. Had it been a little bit more, it would have been almost too. You know, I was like, oh, this is, like, pretty strong wind. Like, I'm noticing you stood on the.

A (26:30)

Top for way longer than anybody was comfortable with.

B (26:35)

Yeah, it's funny, I. I wonder, though. So I've heard that from tons of people being like, that makes sense. Me so uncomfortable. And I kind of wonder if that's because that's the one part of the whole climb that people can kind of identify with. But they can, like, imagine standing on a small thing, but, like, obviously standing on a ledge is a lot easier than freaking climbing the side of the building. But I think when people see the climbing, they're like, well, that's crazy. Nobody does that. But then when they imagine standing on a little thing, they're like, that seems scary. And I'm like, well, no, compared to climbing the thing, it's pretty chill to stand on top.

A (27:01)

All right, final thing before we're going to. We're going to bring another guest up here in a second. I know that Tool was on your playlist. Your music went out at some point. But, like, what, what, what. What else is on your. What are you listening to?

B (27:15)

Oh, it was all just kind of rock from early 2000s, basically, like things. Things like Tool, a handful other bands that I love. But yeah, it was funny. I could, like, barely hear stuff through the earpiece and stuff was cutting in and out and it was super windy and I could kind of hear. But it was still nice to have a few little tunes going every once in a while. You're like, oh, this is fun. It kind of contributed to the. The jovial vibe. We're like, oh, this is a pleasure.

A (27:37)

Final thing. I thought I said that was the final thing. One more thing. Is there anything else that you want to say about the experience that you think people are misunderstanding or don't quite get about what you just did?

B (27:55)

I don't think so. I haven't actually finished the whole broadcast myself, so I haven't seen the show. But it seems like people that watch the show did get a good, good impression of how much fun I was having. And like, that it was. It was kind of joyous and something that I said. I had this conversation, I think, with my wife a few times before the actual event, but when it was sort of announced that I was going to do a climb like this, there was tons of criticism online of like, oh, this is stunt. This is whatever. And I was kind of like, you know what? Wait and see. Because all these people are just going to watch the thing and they're going to see me having a great time on this beautiful building, and they're going to get it, you know, they're going to be like, oh, no wonder he says yes to do something like that. It's so freaking fun. That looks so cool. Like, I would do that if I could because it's fun. Like, that's neat. And so hopefully people that watch the broadcast. I don't know. People, I don't know. Did you guys get that impression? I don't know. I mean, I don't know how many people are like, I want to do that, but hopefully it at least gave some of the childlike joy of getting to climb something really cool that you normally wouldn't be allowed to.

A (28:45)

You were having so much fun that it was uncomfortable. You know, it's like, how could he be having so much fun doing this crazy thing that's making me so uncomfortable? He's having more fun than we are.

B (28:55)

Watching you do it gives you a reason to examine your own fears. You're like, why does this make me so uncomfortable?

A (29:09)

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B (34:34)

Ground.

A (34:36)

In real time.

B (34:38)

And for what it's worth, I remember waving to you through the observation deck window.

A (34:42)

We're going to get to that.

B (34:44)

So I was like, Adam was there because I waved at him through the window as I. If you could finish the climb. I was like, so cool.

A (34:49)

I think 100 million people saw that wave.

B (34:51)

There you go. There you go.

C (34:53)

Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, when you have the opportunity to, you know, get into this production and see it from the inside, I just had to go. So it was one of those things where after meeting you in Vegas and interviewing you, I just knew I had to be there to watch it because I just had a sense that it was going to be this thing that you just can't miss. And to see that it got so big and. And went so wild, it just makes me realize that I was right. And so the event itself was. It was rainy for the days ahead. And so I remember meeting with you in your room and losing in ping pong a few times and you were telling me about the soot. And it seemed like you normally wouldn't sit and watch a building in the rain for days ahead of time. And so there was a little bit of anxiety. And so then on the day it was supposed to happen, it was still wet. And so their crowd wasn't as huge as I'd expected. And then because it was delayed a day because they didn't announce, and then people were like, wait, is it going to happen? And then they announced late. I think that was really brilliant because it built anticipation, not just abroad, but in Taipei. And so I was hearing it on the, on in the cabs, on the radio. Everyone's like, it's going to happen tomorrow. It's going to happen tomorrow.

D (36:16)

Hopefully.

A (36:16)

Hopefully.

C (36:17)

And. And then there was. It was like a movie. I mean, it was like. It was exactly what you.

B (36:21)

So perfect. It was like crazy.

C (36:23)

Hundreds of thousands of people on the street, in the park, across the street, in the building. It was. It was literally a movie. And. And then, you know, to watch you do it from the stage area. It was just frightening. You know, I didn't even sleep a couple of days before. Like, I was having trouble sleeping for you because I was like, oh, man. And then to watch you do it, as soon as you got as tall as the flagpoles, I was like, my stomach was flip flopping. The gasps, everyone was like on a string. It was like gasps, moans, cringing. It was like all Over. And I think it wasn't just on the street. It was in people's living rooms. We're having that same. I mean, maybe you were having the same experience. It was like, it was impossible to watch, but you couldn't look away.

B (37:04)

Yeah, I was having a great time.

A (37:07)

I mean, my phone's blowing up. Like, I'm just texting and sending voice memos back and forth from friends. And how are you feeling? What's going. You know, it's like, I'm sure this was going on with a lot of people. Like, we were all, like, you know, processing our anxiety.

C (37:19)

Yeah, yeah. People are literally. You're making people's palms sweat and they're just sitting on their couch. I mean, that's what was going on. It was pretty wild. And then after, like, the first 50 floors, though, like, I don't know what it was, but when you, like, stood on that, on the first. I think it was the first dragon. And you're sitting on, like, the first one or maybe the second one. You're standing there and you look down. You get real close to the edge, and you look down, and everyone's like, ooh. But at that point, something happened. Like, my brain got used to seeing you on the side of a building window ledges, and my anxiety went away. And then, because you had told me to go to that observation deck, I just boned out and left the production area and just got in line and did the whole thing with all the locals and got up there. And so that's where I saw you.

A (38:06)

Basically, you ended up on the 89th floor at the right moment when Alex is passing, because Alex was like, this is what you need to do. And you were like, how do I. I do that? And he said, just go buy a ticket.

C (38:18)

Yeah, it was so weird.

A (38:19)

He didn't have, like, a fancy press pass or some, like, VIP permission to get up there.

C (38:24)

No, we. We had this discussion. Like, basically, I got out there. I went out there on spec because I wrote the Times piece, but then, like, no one was asking me to be there. So, like, I. I went out there on my own, and when I was there, it was just, like, I wasn't used to how productions work, so I didn't have access that I thought I might have. And so I was just kind of trying to figure out what to do. And at breakfast one morning, you said. Said, just go up to the observation deck. And I'm like, they won't let me. And you're like, you can just buy a ticket.

B (38:52)

Yeah, it's like, tourists do that. I mean, I'd done that. You just go to the observation deck. The view is epic. And it's even cooler when there's somebody freaking climbing out the outside corner.

D (38:59)

Right?

B (38:59)

And you're like, whoa, what a weird day. On the observation, it was like the dress rehearsal day.

C (39:04)

And so I did that. And then when I was there, I was like, I'm up there. And I'm like, oh, shit, I gotta buy, like, tickets for the next three days. Cause of the forecast. So while I was up there.

B (39:13)

That was smart.

C (39:13)

That's smart. And then so, because I had that ticket, it was like a combo of the ticket and the press pass got me past this huge demoralizing line. And I'm like, no, I gotta go.

B (39:24)

I gotta go.

C (39:25)

And then finally, like, I just. I got up to the right corner, and I just wanted to be out of the shot. And so the cameraman said, just go to the corner. And so I'm in the corner. And that's exactly where you're doing that.

B (39:37)

Traverse that you just described.

C (39:38)

Going from the left around to the right. And it just hit you with the wind. It just was like. Yeah, because he set it up.

A (39:45)

Yeah. So I don't know how many of you guys know, but Adam took out his phone and made a little short video as Alex was passing by. And you sent it to your wife April, and she did a little minor edit and threw it up. And you threw it up on Instagram. That video now has 38 million views or something like that. It is insane. So Adam is quietly has this wild. You know, you're a beneficiary of this on some level, I guess. But, like, this video. Yeah, like, you need to thank. This video went nuts and got picked. It's been repurposed on everybody's account as well. Including when you did Kimmel last night.

B (40:31)

They used your video.

A (40:32)

That was Adam's video, where they superimposed Guillermo on it.

B (40:36)

Oh, yeah. Okay. I didn't even see that. I got to see it. That's fun.

C (40:39)

Yeah.

A (40:39)

So you have Adam to thank for that.

C (40:41)

No, no, no, I have you to thank. He's like, go to the observation deck. So I don't know. It's like one of those weird things, I think, because it got so big because we. It was. It was funny because you said hello and you gave the thumbs up. And then I. In real time, I sent it to April. And April happened to be able to be responsive. She was watching it. Zuma had a little. Had his little chalk Bag on. And he was watching it, and. And so I sent it to her, and she cut it real quick and put it up. So he was still climbing, you were still climbing when that video went up. And so that's why I think we.

B (41:15)

Just caught a wave.

C (41:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (41:17)

Adam, what can you share about the time that you spent with Alex when you went to visit him in Las Vegas? This New York Times piece came out, but a lot got edited out. There were plenty of other insights that you wanted to share. Like, what do you think would be interesting for people to know that they might not know about Alex and his life?

B (41:39)

Tell him about your harrowing survival experience getting down from the Crag. I took him out for a normal day at the cliff.

C (41:44)

We're talking about everything. Okay, so two things. One is, when I. When I met you in Taipei, you're like. You threatened to do a rope swing off the top of the building with me. Because at the Crag in Vegas, that was what he said, we're going to put you on a rope swing. And, of course, I was hoping that wouldn't happen. So the whole time I'm interviewing you between your attempts to climb this route, it gets later and later, and the sun's going down. I'm like, okay, I don't have to do the rope swing because I hate heights. I'm like the opposite. I don't even like standing on a ledge looking. I don't even want to stand on that thing right there. That's me. And so I had to climb up. You had to hoist me up to this rope swing. And then I did the rope swing, and on the way down, my ankle gave out, and so I was limping. And at one point, he's like, I think I might have to carry you. I could probably carry you. And all I can think of that doesn't. I can't injure you. You're, like, supposed to be in Taipei in a month. I can't do that.

B (42:42)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have carried you, though. He did great. It's one of the best rope swings in the world. It's so cool. It's insane. Rope swing.

C (42:49)

But one thing I thought, because I talked to Sonny about this is what was interesting. Josh McCoy was staying with you, and. And he was living in his van. And then I talked to Tommy Caldwell, and he said that sometimes there are six vans. And Sonny said that it was something like when you were living out of your van, you always. You know, you couldn't. You couldn't give you're always in the receiving position. And when you moved to Vegas, you wanted to set up a place for your friends who were, who were climbers, who were dirt bagging to hang out. And I just thought the biggest thing that I think was missing from the Times piece was that, that you're thinking that way and that you're a leader for this community in Vegas and all of that. So I wonder how that kind of.

B (43:34)

I don't know. But yeah, it's true that we often have many people living in their cars at our house. But that's fair because I lived down in my van for a very long time and I would always park in front of friends houses and use their washing machines, use their showers, use whatever. And so now it's nice that we own a home that I can sort of share a little bit. And a lot of my friends that I've been climbing with my whole life are basically older homeless people now. They're like mid-40s, like live in a car. They've lived in a car their whole life. No real prospects. You're kind of like, yeah, you're welcome to live in my driveway as long as you need. But you know. And some of them, I suspect, will be living with me into our old age. But that's fine. I mean, that's the climbing lifestyle.

A (44:14)

What has the reception by the climbing community of this event been like for you? Like, how do your peers and your friends, you know, kind of think about this? Like the real, you know, dirtbag community?

B (44:28)

Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure. I mean, so my close friends who I hang out with all the time, we're like, oh, that's cool. And. And we got a few videos while we were in Taipei from our friends hosting watch parties. Like basically groups of our friends in Lake Tahoe or Las Vegas sort of sending a video of everybody hanging out, watching the broadcast. And so that was cool. It was nice to know that my friends supported and were having a good time. But in general, I don't really know how the community but it seems good. I don't know.

A (44:52)

Watching this go down made me realize that I have no idea. Every time I talk to you, I think that I kind of have a grip on what it is that you do. And then I see you do these things and I was like, I don't really understand this at all. And one of the things that was really shocking to me was realizing that when you got to the top of that building, that that's basically only half as high as El Cap.

B (45:16)

Okay. Yeah. Totally. And, like, half as hard and, like.

A (45:19)

You know, so much easier in comparison. And it just gave me such a deeper level of, like, awe and respect for that climb in comparison to this. And this is the one that's really captured, you know, the world. And yet, like, El Cap is, like, so much more of a stunning achievement.

B (45:39)

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, LCAP was. But El Cap, I mean, I'd been quietly toiling away at for years and years. I mean, the film Free Solo, the documentary captures sort of the two years of direct effort that I was putting into that climb. But I'd been thinking about it for, I don't know, six years before that, so I'd been working at it forever and then finally managed to actually feel comfortable and then climb it. And so, I mean, it's a great documentary and one Best picture or best documentary, all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's just such a different process than a huge live TV spectacle.

A (46:14)

I want to open it up for all of you guys to ask questions. But before we do that, Adam, is there any other kind of insight that you want to share before you leave the stage here?

C (46:23)

Oh, yeah. Well, the only thing that comes to mind is that, I mean, you just did a Mount Wilson quad, which is another free solo, and you had told me that, like, what I didn't realize was, between Free Solo and skyscraper, you'd done eight or nine solos that people didn't know about, like, that your M.O. is to kind of go figure up a project that inspires you, that gets you into the kind of that flow state mode, and then just go do it kind of like low key and no one ever sees. And you told me, like, no one even cares because it's not El Cap. And so then you then. So. But I didn't realize you were doing that this whole time.

B (47:03)

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm kind of constantly working on something that's exciting to me. So. Yeah, before the skyscraper thing, in December, I did a solo project at home in Las Vegas that I was kind of proud of. It turned out being kind of dumber than I hoped for. It wasn't that cool, but it was hard and hasn't been done before, and it's. You know, it was. It was cool and it was challenging, and it sort of pushed me in the right way, got me in the right space for. For soloing a skyscraper, but.

C (47:28)

But it was 4,000 vertical feet combined, right?

B (47:31)

Something like that? More than that, I think.

C (47:32)

Yeah.

B (47:33)

Um, it was A lot. It was a tremendous, it was like 12 hours of 12 hours exercise. But yeah, up and down this, this mountain four times. It's a really big mountain.

C (47:42)

Is there another one on, on in your mind already?

B (47:45)

Not like that, no. Actually, I, I kind of think 2026, I might focus just on hard climbing, like bouldering and sport climb, kind of like, like safe climbing and leave the adventure stuff for, for another year. But we'll see because I've, I've had many years in the past where I'm like, this is going to be my year to focus on hard stuff. And then I always get sucked into adventure stuff instead because it's so much more adventurous, so much more fun.

A (48:09)

This episode is brought to you by Noble Mobile. And oh my goodness, I gotta say, the mission that this company is on is about as aligned with my values as could even be possible. Because it's all about reclaiming our attention by changing our relationship with our phones. Noble is the first phone carrier that pays you to use your phone less. You heard me correctly. It sounds insane, but it's actually true. The big carriers out there all the overcharge us, everyone for data that we don't actually use. And then they pair that with poor customer service and make it seem like there are no better options because their whole business model is built around keeping us glued to our screens. Noble flips that you still get unlimited talk and text and 5G data and you get it on the T mobile network, which is an amazing network, but you also get it at a free fraction of the price the big carriers charge. And on top of that, they pay you cash back for the data that you don't use, meaning that you can earn up to $20 a month. Not only did I keep my same phone number, it turned out to be this incredibly quick and easy process. But it's not just about saving money. It's about taking back your time and your attention. And right now, as a listener of this show, you can try Noble today for just $10. Go to noblemobile.com rich roll get paid to use your phone less. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. You know it, you love it. Because Squarespace is the not a the all in one platform for building a website and growing your business online. Here is something I've observed over the years. So many people have have so many meaningful ideas or creations to share, but they get stuck on the infrastructure, not the idea itself, the logistics of actually launching it. How do I build a website? How do I take payments or find an audience or a way for customers to find me. Well, Squarespace removes all of those obstacles. You can build a beautiful professional site using their templates or blueprint AI which generates a custom design based upon your specific goals. You can sell content, courses, videos, memberships, all behind a paywall. Handle scheduling and invoicing without outsourcing to five different platforms. The barrier to entry for sharing your work has never been lower. The tools exist. What's left is mustering the courage to actually put yourself out there. Head on over to squarespace.com richroll for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use code Richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. All right, let's open it up to all of you guys out here. Who wants to go first? Who's got a burning desire right there?

B (51:11)

That's the spirit.

A (51:11)

Really want to ask this question? Share with us your name and who you are.

E (51:18)

Hi everybody, my name is Taylor. Hi, Rich. Hi, Alex. Thank you so much for doing this. This is so cool. Alex, I have a question for you. Your drive is so inspiring. There's an instance that I specifically remember in your documentary Free Solo that you come down after successfully summiting it and you answer a question from one of your teammates where they say, hey, what are you going to do right now? And you say, oh, I'm going to go back to my van and I'm going to do pull ups in my van.

A (51:56)

Your drive.

E (51:57)

Do you find that that was always an intrinsic trait that you've had or have you had to develop that and work on that?

B (52:03)

That's an interesting question. I mean, I think my drive to climb is somewhat intrinsic. Like I love rock climbing and, and I've always wanted to go climb more than I want to do anything else. And then, and I think there's a little bit of an innate, you know, if I'm going to do something, I want to do it as well as I can. And so, but like that, it's funny that that experience with Free Solo, basically I'd been, I've been training every other day, I've been hanging, boarding every other day and feeling like great results from it. You know, I've been kind of in this nice healthy routine where I was like, every other day I do this certain workout. And so naturally I'd rested the day before Free soling all cap because I wanted to be fresh for el cap. So then I climbed all cap and then I was kind of like, well, you know, this is my day for hangboarding. I want to stick to my routine. And the routine had kind of like led me to the point that I was able to free solo cap. So you don't want to abandon this like really happy, healthy routine that's been working for you. And I mean, in some ways with the building, I've kind of experienced the same thing where I was like, oh, I've spent months training leading up to the, the building. It's like I kind of want to keep that going as, as well as I can. Cause I feel really fit. I've been climbing pretty well and you know, I feel good about it. And so I don't know how much of that's like innate drive or not, but it's kind of like once you find a nice healthy system that's working for you and you feel like you're sort of living your best life, it's like you hate to give that up just because you did one climb or another.

A (53:15)

Sort of a follow up to that. How do you decide what to say yes to and what to say no to? And how do you like anticipate handling what I'm sure are just an insane number of requests coming your way right now? Like, you must just be getting shellacked with people who want you to go speak and you know, all kinds of crazy stuff, right? And, and wanting to, you know, be the climber and stay fit and all of those things. Sometimes those, those are in conflict with each other.

B (53:44)

Yeah, well, honestly, I, I've been working with the same team since 2012 or something, the same sort of management team which, you know, you share and you know, I'm pretty well insulated from all that kind of stuff. And so in general, if, if my team tells me to do a thing, I just do the thing. Cause that's the right thing to do. Um, and so, you know, it's like if it's on my calendar, I do it and if it's, it doesn't show up on my calendar, then I don't. And so yeah, I mean that's kind of. But the priority is always to be the best climber that I can be and, and to basically send my project and, and the people that I work with all know that that's the priority. And so we try to layer in as, as many of these cool opportunities, like the things that come up, it's like try to do as much as I can while still being as good of a climber as I can. So yeah, I mean it is hard to, hard to balance that stuff though.

A (54:28)

Uh, all Right, who's next there?

E (54:32)

Hi, I'm Isadora. I work for Freaks of Nature with this lovely man right here. But it's for skincare for and by athletes.

B (54:40)

Yeah, I know it.

E (54:41)

I think we briefly met actually at North Face Climb.

B (54:43)

Oh, cool.

E (54:44)

But thank you both again for doing this. There's been a lot of media around the playlist, obviously a lot of Tool. I saw like Senses Fail, Linkin park, maybe System of A Down. A lot of bangers on there. Has any of your favorite musicians reached out to you?

B (55:04)

Yeah, a couple people have reached out. A guy from the Used reached out and was like, come to a show. And I was like, sweet. I've loved the Used since, like, since 1996. You know, it's like, I don't know. And actually all the members of Tool commented on a couple of the random social media things, which I was like, Maynard the dude. I was so psyched. Yeah. For whatever reason, I think some of you musicians, I think because some of that music I've listened to literally my whole life. And so to get comments from folks that. That I've loved their work for my whole life, I'm like, that's so great. Hopefully I'll get to go to a few shows or something.

E (55:33)

Maybe one will want you to teach them how to climb a building.

B (55:36)

I mean, I would. If anybody wants to learn how to climb building, you just ask, what's the.

A (55:40)

Craziest message that you've gotten in the aftermath of this? I'm imagining Tom Cruise is watching this and he's like, I gotta talk to Alex.

B (55:48)

I don't know, actually. Well, so that's the thing is I don't really have the social apps on my phone. I have this weird managery thing, so I can't really see it. Does. Doesn't work the way social does, which is kind of better because otherwise I get sucked into. It's just too crazy. I mean, I think since the building, what's just been going off, it's crazy. So I can't really get too sucked into it. I can kind of see like weird snapshots and get an idea of trends and stuff, but. But no, I just don't even know if or who is messaging. And then every once in a while I'll borrow my wife's phone because I'm just like, oh, what did people say about my playlist? You know, it's like you just can't. Can't resist the urge to, like, see.

E (56:20)

People love the playlist.

B (56:21)

Oh, yeah. Oh, great.

A (56:24)

Here they are.

B (56:26)

It's funny because I made that playlist while I was driving across Nevada. I was just like alone in my van for a long time, driving for eight hours. I was just sort of like, what are songs that I love that I'd be happy to listen to? And had I known that to be such a public thing, I may would have curated a little bit more. But that really just reflected one drive where I was like, this is what I want to listen to right now.

A (56:44)

Hey, Alex. Hey Rich. Stuart Ambrose from the Finding Mastery team. So great to be here and so grateful that you got to do this for us.

B (56:52)

So I got to watch the climb.

A (56:55)

That you did with my children. And I have a 9 year old and I have a 14 year old and they were gobsmacked the entire time. You now have two young children too. And I'm just curious, like, how. What did this experience? How did it.

B (57:11)

Is there anything you wish your kids.

A (57:12)

Would learn or other kids that got to watch it would learn and would take away from it? I was curious how that, now that especially that you're a parent, how you approached kind of that element of it.

B (57:23)

It was really special to watch it.

A (57:25)

With kids who were just in awe. So thank you.

B (57:28)

Well, my children are going to turn two and four in the next couple weeks, and they were the opposite of gobsmacked. They were like, this is boring. So we watched the first 20 minutes with them when we got home, and then we had to put them to bed and we gave up. They didn't really care. We were like, we'll watch it eventually. But no, I mean, I think in general, I mean, I hope that older kids, if they take anything from that, they just take the, you know, sort of the effort, the preparation that they see that something that looks impossible or looks really hard is actually fine if you put the effort into it and you make it happen. I don't know. I mean, I hate to, you know, you don't, like, live your dreams, all that kind of like random stuff. But hopefully for a kid you can see that and be like, oh, like, it doesn't matter what other people say is normal or expected or what, you know, should be possible. It's like if you think you can do a thing and you train for it and you feel prepared, like, go do the thing. I hope, but not that I'm encouraging kids to go climb skyscrapers, but, you know, with a lifetime of training, why not?

A (58:24)

Do you think about that? Do you worry? Or are you concerned that, like, people who shouldn't be climbing skyscrapers are now going to go out and like try to do that as a result.

B (58:33)

That was a common question during the free solo film tour with like, oh, aren't you worried you're gonna inspire kids to go free solo big wall? And I was like, no, it's pretty self selecting. It's like basically, I mean, free soling is pretty hard and so you just can't really get that high. You know, it's like basically you have to intentionally make each move. So you're like, I'm going up a move, I'm going up another move. And if you're not cut out for it, you're not physically and psychologically prepared. Once you're eight feet off the ground, you're like, this is really scary. And it's kind of hard to get high enough where you're actually going to die unless you're really choosing to be there. So I'm kind of like, it's not one of those things that people can imitate, you know, like if you're not an elite rock climber, you can't just walk up to the Basel Cat and be like, I'm free soloing it. It's like you literally can't get off the ground. And with typo 101, like I was saying earlier, one of the first move off the ground is actually kind of hard. And so just right there, it's like the average person can't just like walk up and do it. Like it's, you know, they won't get off the ground. And then even if they do, once they mantle up the first little thing and they're standing there, they're, you know, maybe eight feet off the ground, they'd be like, oh, oh, this is kind of scary. Like I'm going to break my ankle on the concrete. And then unless they're really psyched and they have a plan, they're just not going to make it much higher.

A (59:37)

I want to hear from Sani, is Sonny here? There she is.

B (59:42)

Oh, wow.

A (59:43)

I know that Sonny. Everyone asks you like, how do you deal with it? How do you, you know, how do you, you know, what is your emotional state when Alex is doing all of these things? How do you, you know, kind of process the, the risk and the fear? I want to know like, what the aftermath like this, the last like couple, you know, week or how long has it been? Two weeks or something like that? I don't think it's been, has, has been for you and what the experience of, of, of being in Taipei was like for you from your perspective.

F (60:13)

So Taipei was interesting because I don't watch Alex free solo that much. I. I wasn't there when he soloed El Cap. I have seen him solo a decent amount. Like, when he did this big link up in Red Rock, I watched part of it, and I've obviously seen him at the Crag, just kind of playing around, soloing things back. But something this big of this nature, I hadn't watched in person before, and I. I don't love it. Like, it's very stressful, even if I feel like he's confident. And I think because the conditions had been so bad leading up to the climb, I was way more stressed than I thought I was going to be, because for so long, we'd just been like, well, the climb's going to be fine. Like that. Like, that wasn't the part I was worried about. I was worried about maybe like. Like, the public nature of it and being in the public eye again and things like that. And I. You know, and then the. The actual week came, and I was like, wait, this isn't feeling as secure as I wanted it to feel. What the heck? And so. So I was more stressed than I thought I would be. But then at the same time, you know, I saw. I was with my friend, and I saw Alex smile and wave at that first thing, and she was like, he's fine. Look, it's great. And in my heart, I think I was kind of like, he's fine. It's great. But my kind of kept being like, what if it's too hot? What if it's too windy? And just really wanting to, like, protect him and feeling really protective of him, but he handled the pressure so well, and it all went so well, and. And honestly, you know, as a team, I think that there were so many people there supporting him, and afterwards, it was almost like this. This. You almost, like, come down off of this high where you're like, wow, that was so special. Like, I think the thing I was really surprised by was how felt to share it with Taipei and with all the. The audience and everyone just felt so excited about it. And then you kind of come down from that. You're like, whoa, it's over. Like, okay. And I had this moment where the next morning I went on a walk, and it was this feeling of like, okay, that was sort of Alex's art. And it was this beautiful thing, and it was so special, and it went out into the world, and now you let go of it and you just say, okay, it's. It's over. And now we just go back to our normal life and we enjoy that just as much. And I had to kind of let it out of my heart, and it was almost nostalgic. Like, I was, like, leaving our hotel.

E (62:41)

Room and I was like, this is.

F (62:42)

Where we played ping pong before Taipei 101. But yeah, you. You let it out of your heart and you go back to normal life and you enjoy that too. So anyways, a bit of a. A bit of a roller coaster and a bit of a journey, but it was surprisingly emotional and special with the whole audience there. And then it was good to come home and be with our kids, too.

A (63:04)

What did you guys do for the rest of the day after you finished the climb?

B (63:08)

Did a bunch of press stuff and then had a crazy dumpling dinner. But no, it was just like hanging out with everybody. I mean, honestly, actually, my cheeks hurt that day from smiling so much and laughing. Like, all our friends are so. Everyone is so psyched. Actually, something Sonia just said, the city, Taipei. It was really special being in the city because. Because Taipei 101 holds such cultural significance for the city of Taipei and sort of the island of Taiwan. It's like the people are so rightfully proud of this incredible architectural landmark. You know, it's like this iconic building. And so people in the city were really freaking psyched on the whole thing. And so I hadn't totally anticipated that beforehand, like, just how much pride there was around the building. And then afterward, the next day when we were flying out, like, people, the air, I just hadn't really realized that, like, the local media was. It was so psyched.

A (63:56)

The unsung heroes in this whole affair are the rigging team, the camera team. This was just an extraordinary production, and I think that it was a real feat to pull this off and to be able to really capture from all these amazing angles the gravity of the situation. It was absolutely riveting. And the reason for that is because Plimsoll, the production company behind this, was behind the wheel. They were the ones who were in charge of the production. And we are very fortunate today to have both Grant and Alan from Plimsoll here. So I wanted everybody to first, like, give these guys a hand for, you know, just an incredible job. And I wondered if either of you two guys would be willing to share some insights of what it was like from your perspective of having to kind of shoulder the responsibility of this production while also having a relationship with Alex and the stakes being so high.

D (65:09)

Hello, I'm Grant Plimps the company I founded. So I was there, and it was pretty stressful for us. I mean, you. You don't. But obviously you're aware of the fact you can't wander around saying you're stressful if you're just producing the TV show. But I was. I was talking to. I think I was talking to Sani last night, and I was saying, it's quite an interesting experience for me as a producer, because normally if you sit in the gallery for a live show, you're. You're pretty wound up because you're worried about getting the shots and making sure the show's everything you want it to be. But I think for most of us in the gallery that day, there was an extra level of stress. And we weren't just worried about the shots. In fact, more than anything else, we were worried about Alex. And so it was a strange experience. You were trying to do your job, but the thing you were really focused on was Alex.

B (66:05)

Okay.

D (66:05)

And going back to what you said earlier, I hated Alex when he spent as much time as he did still on top of that building. I think everybody. Everybody just at that, you thought, you've made it. You want him to come down. The other thing, the other insight, which I think is really interesting, is that the director of the show said to the whole crew in the gallery, look, I know everybody will be very excited when he gets to the top, but we got work to do. No one is to say anything. So Alex gets to the top of the building, everybody ignores it, jumps up and down and starts whooping and hollering. There was a collective sigh of relief. I've got it on camera somewhere. But for me, the overwhelming sense was, I mean, listen, obviously in awe of what Alex did, very proud of what our crew did, but to speak to what Sani said, there's just a lovely suite de corps down there. I mean, we've been working with Alex and his team for a few years. And I sent Alex a note afterwards. I mean, I mean, obviously he's an extraordinary athlete, but it turns out that, you know, he's actually a really extraordinary human being. Nice, humble guy, lovely family. So it's been a. You know, it's been a pleasure, actually.

B (67:19)

Yeah. I would just add that I've worked with Plumsoll in the last two TV things that I've done, and great folks to work with. And then Plumesoul hires out all the camera people and the riggers, and. And they're basically the same team of people, some of whom I worked with on the film Free Solo. Other ones I've worked with on the tv last couple TV things I've done done. But many of whom I've known for 20 years and been on a bunch of expeditions with and camped with all over the world. And so when it comes down to all the people on the wall and the people that I'm actually interacting with as we shoot this program, I mean, a lot of them are some of my best friends, basically. And I'm like, oh, it's so fun. We're all just out here hanging on ropes, playing around, like, doing the thing that we do, just like we have on all these other expeditions, different places. And so. And that's actually something because so many. So many people have asked me questions about the sort of the intensity of the live experience. You're like, well, I'm basically just up there playing with my friends, just like if it wasn't a live experience and we were just on an expedition somewhere shooting still photos of some epic big wall. It's like. It's kind of the same lived experience for me. You're just out there climbing with your friends with a little bit more stress.

A (68:16)

Any other questions? There we go.

B (68:19)

Hi, Alexander. A question for Alex.

A (68:22)

We had earlier a little bit about the impact on children. I was very keen to hear about.

B (68:27)

Your own perspective as a father and how being a father and the paternal role has changed your own perspective on risk tolerance, if at all. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I get asked questions like that quite a lot. And I mean, I think that. I don't know. I mean, it's complicated, but I think overall I'm at home a lot more than I was. So I think my overall risk profile is lower than it used to be just because I'm spending so much more time training in my garage and just being at home and not adventuring in the mountains and going on expeditions to climb big mountains, mountains and things. That said, I kind of think the capacity to take, you know, controlled risk is. Is seemingly not that changed so far, though I wouldn't be surprised if my appetite for taking risk just slowly dies over time. Maybe. I don't know. You know, we'll kind of see. But so far, it seems like, you know, I've done a handful of big soling projects other than the skyscraper and things. I've done a handful of other solos in the last four or five years since we've had kids. Kids where I was like, oh, I can still do this, and I still enjoy doing this, but it's like whether or not I want to for forever. It's like, we'll see.

A (69:31)

When we were chatting in New York, we were talking about this time period, this frame of time. You basically have five years where you're going to be in this peak condition at your age. And so do you think about that window of time and, and you know, for, for accomplishing like your, your, your bigger goals or like for the, for the most difficult things that you know you want to be able to do. Like this is you have a, you have a couple years now where you can be in this peak physical condition to accomplish those. Does that enter into how you make decisions about what you want to do next?

B (70:09)

A little bit, but actually less so than you might think. Just because most of my free soloing projects are so far from my physical limit. Just because the nature, nature of free soloing is that you have to stay well enough within your comfort zone that you don't fall to your death. And so, you know, when you talk about sort of like the, the decline from age, which you know, obviously will be happening soon, I turned 40 this year and so I'm sort of like well past, you know, if you think you peak at like 23 physically, I'm sort of like well down the other side. But thankfully climbing I think has a pretty long and slow decline just because it's so skill based, so much technique and it's less of an impact on your body than most other sports that people think of. And so, so I think you can remain an elite climber for much longer than most sports. But then that said, I mean, I think for free soloing, like I'm saying, because it's so within my comfort zone, it doesn't totally matter if my top end power is a little bit diminished just because either way, soling is, you know, more of a psychological thing. That said though, I do think that I'll just lose the appetite a little bit. It's like especially as I get older and, and part of that is just I've already gotten to do so many things that I'm proud of and so many things that I wanted to do and you know, it's like of already lived my dream a little bit. I'm kind of like, I don't know if I need to solo that many more. I mean, maybe I need to move around more. Like because I just lived in my van in the western US for so long and I did so many of the routes that I thought were, were important to me. So I'm like, maybe if I lived in Europe for a while and kind of had, like, a different host of routes to be inspired by, but I'm like, that's the thing with the. The route. The experience that I had soloing in December around home, I was like, am I scraping the bottom of the barrel? Like, am I just doing stuff that's kind of dumb now? Because I don't. I've already done the things that I really care about. About my God. I just need greener pastures if I'm going to solo a lot more or bigger buildings.

A (71:44)

Well, for a guy who. Who. Whose original goal was, like, how do I, like, figure out a way to.

B (71:50)

Yeah. How do I get and make a living?

A (71:51)

Like, I think it's working out all right.

B (71:53)

Exactly. Yeah. I set out with a very limited goals, and I'm, like, wildly exceeding. It's. It's all good. Yeah.

A (71:59)

All right, next question.

E (72:01)

Hey, I would love to ask a question about mental health, which is a big topic in society and in athletics in particular. I'm Eve, by the way. I work with the Masters of Scale podcast. And I know that when you talk about your own experience, I feel like sometimes you're expressing this sense. You're this remarkable person who's done these things, but you're normal to you. Right. So sort of wondering how your relationship with. Understanding how other people's perceptions of you should or shouldn't impact the way you sort of feel and just how you generally take care of your mental health, but also just. Just how you go about being in a world as a person who, you know, other people are signaling to you that you're not normal. But how do you go about navigating that and just how's that all going?

B (72:44)

I mean. Well, I just. I think they're not normal. You know, it's like I'm the normal, and everybody else has got some weird stuff going on. I don't know why they're all stressed. No, honestly, I don't know. It's. I mean, yeah, I'm just living. I'm just doing my thing. I'm doing the best I can. Everybody else got to take a chill position. So, you know what.

A (73:00)

What does stress you out? Anything?

B (73:03)

Oh, no. I mean, I get stressed out. Like, when both kids are screaming, I'm like, ah. You know, it's just a lot. Or like, travel, work, stuff, like being away from home, like, not being able to climb, feeling like I suck at climbing kind of stresses me out. I mean, that's like. Like, I felt great in Taipei randomly, you know, I'VE been training quite a lot. I've been feeling really strong. I had a couple really good gym sessions, climbing gym in Taipei, and was like, oh, I feel really good. And then climbed the building, was like, I feel great. You know, I'm peaking. And I kind of thought I was going to go home and send my project at this cave that I was working on. So I was like, I feel great. And then I went home and I completely sucked, which I tried not to get too worked up about because I was kind of like, you know, if you think of it as like post expedition or something or sort of like a deload after like months of training or who knows? But anyway, I was kind of like, oh, I completely sucked. The first day I came home. I was like, okay, I can. I can deal. And then I went back to the same thing and completely sucked even worse and was like, okay. Like, that's a. You know, that's the type of stuff that stresses me out. When you're like, what if it's not working? Why. Why do I suck? Like, I'm trying so hard and I just can't do it. It. Um, and then I had a third day where I also totally sucked. Um, and then I was starting to get a little stressed. And then randomly I came here to do Jimmy Kimmel last night and freaking just crushed in the gym yesterday. And I was like, okay, all is not lost, so we'll see. Uh, I don't know. But that's like, that's. I don't know. I mean, I guess. And actually that makes it sound like, too focused on performance. But basically, I think that the. The stressor there is when you're worried that you're, like, on the wrong path, when you're sort of like, oh, I've devoted all this effort to training in certain ways. Like, what if it's not working? Like, am I wasting my time? Am I already, like, way past my. You know, am I already deep into physical decline? Like, do I just not have it? You know, it's those types of things stress you out. Because that's basically a question of, like, am I wasting my life at a pursuit that I just can't do? But then you're like, no, no. Sometimes I get glimmers of hope, like on the top of some crazy building.

A (74:41)

I'll say it again. I think it's working out well, you know. All right, here we go. Oh, Alexi.

E (74:48)

Hi, I'm Alexi. I was wondering, do you feel the difference in your own experience? Not like safety wise but like, like the actual athletic experience between being in nature doing a free solo and doing something with like a man made building and my relationship to it is like trail running versus like track and road running feels very different to me.

B (75:12)

That's an interesting question. I think that the difference between climbing a building and climbing rock is different is less than the difference between trail running and road running. Because, you know, obviously I've run a bit. Not, not like you, but, but, but it's just so different. But climbing, I've grown up climbing in a climbing gym. And climbing in a climbing gym is obviously really different than real rock outside. But then actually even real rock outside is incredibly varied depending on the type of rock climbing. Limestone, totally different than climbing sandstone. Totally different than climbing slate quarries in the uk, random types of rock feel completely different. And so climbing a building, it's not that different. In a way you're like, yeah, it's really slick, but it's not that different than some, some problems in a climbing gym. So I don't know, it's all sort of like part of the general experience of climbing.

E (75:57)

But do you like it the same?

B (75:59)

Oh no. I mean if I had to choose one for the rest of my life, I'd rather climb real rocks. But as far as novelty and like an incredible experience and seeing a beautiful view and all that kind of stuff, it's like pretty freaking cool. And yeah, I got a lot of questions about that before the climb. Like why would you climb a building? I'm kind of like, I've literally spent the last 20 years traveling the world to climb different types of rocks all over and sometimes you're seeking them out. Like I just said, the slate quarries in the uk, the slate quarries are in known for being incredibly smooth with like these, it's almost like climbing glass. It's like these incredibly small edges on completely smooth walls. And I'm like, it's not that dissimilar to climbing a building. And you know, I've been like seeking out things like that around the world for years to get these different climbing experiences. And I'm kind of like if you get the opportunity to climb this incredible thing just because it's a building doesn't, you know, it's like you still say yes.

A (76:43)

In addition to just the height of Taipei 101 and, and kind of it just being this legendary building, like what is it about that building that made it, it attractive for you to climb versus some other super tall skyscraper?

B (76:57)

I mean, so there are a few things. One, it's Singular in the landscape. Like, in the city, it sticks out. Like, all the other buildings are so small. And the first time that I saw the building, in 2013 or something, it was even more striking. Now they've built a couple other tall buildings nearby that rise to, like, one third height or like maybe half height. So it's still way bigger than everything else. But at the time when I first saw it, the whole city was tiny. And then there was this gigantic building. And the first time I saw it, I think it was the fifth or sixth tallest building in the world when it opened. It was the tallest building in the world in 2004. Now it's like the 11th or 12th or something, but basically it's just this giant building that totally dwarfs the whole landscape. So that's cool. In the same way that climbing. When you rock climb, it's nice to climb a mountain. It's twice as big as everything around it. You're like, that's a fricking mountain. So you see type 101, you're like, that's a building. But then also it's possible, which is a big plus because some buildings are just not possible. They're just sheer or smooth glass or whatever. And then not only is it possible, but it's just cool. Like, the features that you climb are secure and easy enough, but hard enough to be interesting. And so it just, you know, all the interesting sort of ornamental features. Climbing over the dragons, climbing over the Ruiz, like the crazy roofs up at the top. You know, some buildings are really boring. This building is about as interesting as buildings get. So I was like, oh, it's pretty cool.

A (78:12)

All right, anybody else out here? Here. Hey, Jonathan McKenzie at Turtle Box. First, I want to take you up on.

B (78:22)

You said you would teach anybody how to climb a building, so just let.

A (78:26)

Me know next steps.

B (78:27)

That sounds fun.

A (78:29)

Is this building climbable? It's not really.

B (78:31)

We'll have to look outside. I'm not sure. I didn't see anything obvious. No, it's interesting that you.

A (78:37)

You said you just turned 40, so.

B (78:39)

I just turned 40 two weeks ago. And I find it interesting that, you know, Rich, you have an amazing story that started at 40 in a lot.

A (78:46)

Of ways, and longevity kind of being a buzzword of the day, I know.

B (78:54)

That me and a lot of people.

A (78:55)

Are thinking about just how to live.

B (78:57)

A fantastic life, you know, beyond the.

A (79:01)

Next 40 years, you know, possibly into.

B (79:03)

Our 90s and even hundreds.

A (79:05)

Is that something that you think about?

B (79:06)

Do you think about, you know, what you're going to do? To not slow down what you're going to do to keep living an adventurous and fulfilling life. Yeah, for sure. I'd say I have a greater interest in health than average. I've read a lot of the books and things like that and I've tried to take care of myself. Yeah, I'd say I'm very interested in living as long as possible. I mean, we have kids. I want to have grandkids hopefully someday and have the whole family scene. It's like, that'll be amazing. But yeah, I do all the things that said, I know that when I do eventually die, I'm still going to be like, man, I wish it was a lot longer. And so I'm kind of like, well, you just got to do the things you can along the way because either way it's going to feel pretty short in the end.

A (79:47)

I kind of want to do the Phil Donahue thing and walk around in there, so. Good.

B (79:51)

You should.

C (79:53)

Hey, Alex, Tony from Riven here. I've always loved hearing you talk about playfulness and joy. I got to watch this with my 7 year old niece and she could clearly see how much fun you were having. I'm curious, what role does playfulness and joy play in your selection of your projects? Like, how do you, how do you factor that in in advance of the project?

B (80:15)

That's interesting actually, because I don't know if Play factors that much into the selection of projects necessarily, but I do think it's sort of at the core of all of my climbing and training and just the whole process around it. I mean, I think that projects like the, like the skyscraper climbing have so much to do with whether or not you get permission to do it, whether or not the production company comes together, whether or not a company like Netflix is on board to actually air something like that. It really is just there's so many factors that are totally outside your control. So you kind of just have to wait and see if the things all come together. But I would say that play is at the center of every day of climbing. So basically all the practice, I went to the gym this morning, had a great session, had fun, did all the problems, was like, oh, this is so cool and went to the gym yesterday I went to, I'll probably go to the climbing gym tomorrow. You know, it's like. And each day I'm like, that's kind of the highlight of the day. It's like you're having fun, you're playing. And so I think that all those days are what allow you to have These big. You know, it's like. I think people see skyscraper live on tv and they're like, that's like this pinnacle experience. You're kind of like, well, really is the months leading up to it that are the really fun part. And then, of course, the climb is cool and the experience is. Is very meaningful. Like, the view from the building is incredible. You know, it's cool. But really, it's like the months and months of. Of fun getting to it.

A (81:24)

There we go.

B (81:25)

Straight behind you. Straight behind you. Yeah.

A (81:28)

Thank you. Hey, Alex. I'm Tyler from Manhattan Beach. One really simple question. Did you sleep the night before the climb?

B (81:37)

Yeah, yeah, pretty well, kind of, except that I was. Super jet lag. So we were waking up at 4. It was kind of weird, but no, I basically slept well. Yeah. So the night before. So it was delayed. The day before and the night before that day, I'd sort of looked out the window and I hadn't even packed my bag for the next morning. I was like, there's no chance we're doing it tomorrow. Even though technically it was still like, I'm supposed to solo a skyscraper tomorrow morning. But basically it was, like, raining. The forecast looked horrible. I just looked out the window. I was like, there's no chance, even though it hasn't actually been called yet. And so I didn't even pack. I didn't do anything. The next day, I was kind of looking out the window and I was like, I kind of think I'm doing it tomorrow. And so I'd packed my bag, I had everything all laid out. I was ready. I was psyched. And. And then we slept pretty well and got up at whatever time we were supposed to, and it was all fine. Which is actually an interesting thing, kind of when you can tell that a project is coming together for you. Because when you wake up and you're like, oh, I'm excited to go do a thing, it's really different than like, oh, God. And actually, I think I said this to my wife at some point while we were on the trip. But when you're in the big mountains trying to climb really extreme alpine climbs and things like that, you often camp at the base of some objective and you're sort of secretly hoping that it rains or it snows or something because you're kind of afraid to actually have to go up and do the thing that you're there to do. You're sort of like, oh, I hope it snows so we don't have to climb the thing because you're like, you look up at the wall and you're like, I don't want to climb the thing. It seems like really scary, you know, and. And you know that you can and you're. And you're still going to try, but you're sort of secretly like, I kind of hope it snows. And with the building, I think at first I was kind of like, I don't know, like, I don't, like, this is all sort of stressful. But then by the time the day came, I was like, oh, I'm so psyched that it's perfect weather because it's game time. Like, here we go.

E (83:16)

I'm curious to know. I feel like free solo is one of the most impressive things I'll ever see in my lifetime. As is now Taipei. What's the most impressive thing you've ever witnessed in your lifetime?

B (83:26)

That's an interesting question. You mean like in a film or in real life?

E (83:29)

Well, I just feel like you've been on so many amazing trips and expeditions and what's the one thing to you that just stands out that you're like, I may never see that again?

B (83:37)

Oh, I don't know. I mean, literally this week I saw a kid climb something at this cave where I've been climbing. And I was like, I've just never seen a human climb like that. It was the crazy thing I've ever seen. Little kid Tyler. I'm like, I don't know, it's like totally Next Level. It's like Next generation type stuff. But I don't know, I've had a couple random experiences, actually. Have any of you guys seen the film the Alpinist? It's like another climbing documentary. So that was about this guy, Mark Andre Leclerc. And actually, so I was just saying that sometimes you're camped in a tent and you're sort of secretly hoping that it snows. So I was camped in the Torre Valley below in Patagonia in southern Argentina. And a friend and I were going to try to do the Torre traverse. And Mark Andre went up and soloed one of the spires, Serra Torre. It's like this really striking iconic tower. And so when we started our little traverse, we could look across and see this tiny, tiny black dot alone on this 4,000 foot foot granite and ice spire thing. It was insane. And I was kind of like, I cannot believe that there's just a dude by himself climbing this like crazy mountain. And he wound up climbing the crazy mountain and descending and have this incredible experience. We climbed 3.9 of the four spires, got totally hammered by a storm, retreated off the wrong side of the mountain range and then did a 20 hour death march around the entire mountain range with no food. And we lost all of our gear, we lost our tent, we lost everything. And then I flew home because the trip was over, because I lost everything I owned. I was sort of like, well, that wraps up the season anyway, that's, that's a random story.

A (85:02)

I remember watching that film and at the beginning, if memory serves me, there's voiceover of you on Tim Ferriss podcast. And I think Tim asked you something like, you know, who inspires you or you know, who are the, who are the people that like you look to? And you mentioned Ella as being kind of an inspirational figure.

B (85:23)

This is Mark Andre.

A (85:24)

Mark Andre, totally Mark Andre as just being this purist inspirational person. Is there anyone else that inspires you? Who do you look to?

B (85:36)

Oh, I mean, all kinds of climbing heroes. I mean, you mean contemporary or sort of through childhood and through.

A (85:42)

Just in general, maybe even outside of the climbing world?

B (85:46)

Well actually, I mean, yeah, when you're asking about sort of like impressive human feats that inspired me. So like Philippe Petit from the documentary man on Wire, if anyone's seen it, like walking the tightrope between the, the Twin Towers, like the World Trade Center. I mean I saw that film before I freestyle auto Cap and it really captured me is like, you know, he's like such a unusual individual with this quixotic. Like he just wants to do this crazy thing and then he just pursues it and he does it and it's so incredible and it's amazing to see. And I remember being really struck by that documentary. I was like, oh, that's so cool. And you know, and at the time I was like thinking about all Cap and I was really drawn to it, but it just felt like this whole. I was like, I don't know, is that too much? Is that too crazy? So I think that film is particularly inspiring. And then I've met him at a few events since then, like done some panels with him and things and I was like, what a character. He's like such a. But he's like, it's interesting because he comes from sort of like a circus background and it's like really different than a rock climbing background. But anyway, still super inspiring.

A (86:42)

I don't know if you're aware, but after the Taipei climb, it sort of initiated or kicked up this whole discourse around whether or not you are the world's greatest living athlete. Are you aware of this conversation that's happening? Are you the world's greatest living athlete? And if not, who is, in your opinion?

B (87:07)

I would give a strong. No, I mean, I think it really comes down to how you would evaluate that. I mean, how do you determine who's a strong athlete? But I think by any basic measure, measures of fitness, I would not be the greatest athlete. You know, it's like if you're measuring VO2 max, you're measuring splits for miles or running or swimming or basically any measurable thing, I would not be the best.

A (87:31)

But you are gambling your life with these things. It's interesting. You live in Las Vegas, you don't gamble, but you're actually the biggest gambler in the whole place.

B (87:38)

Yeah, well, I like to joke I only gamble with my life, but that's a joke.

A (87:43)

Uh, all right.

B (87:45)

No, but I think. But. So actually you say that, though. But there are plenty of other athletes, though. Like, Tour de France riders are riding, you know, 60 miles an hour plus downhill, wearing Lycra. And like, ski racers. I mean, the Winter Olympics are coming up in a week, and it's like downhill ski racers are doing 60, 80 miles an hour, fricking wearing Lycra. And, you know, it's like, it might not look as extreme as. As freestyling a skyscraper, but it's like I'm. I don't know that much about ski racing. I don't really know much about anything except for climbing, but. But I'm sure occasionally there are accidents where ski racers die. You know, it's like, I'm sure there must be times when people go horrifically out of bounds, like, fly head first into a thing and die. And you're sort of like, all these sports have consequences. Like, they are dangerous. And so for whatever reason, people think of those as normal because they're like ski racing. My kids do that. I'm looking at you kids in the back who are now into ski racing. You know, it's like. Like all those kinds of things are considered normal because they're sort of mainstream. But I'm kind of like they're not really that much safer necessarily than. Than rock climbing, which, I mean, most people. Rock climbing is a gym. It's super safe anyway. There's a whole rant about risk and how you evaluate it and everything.

A (88:45)

Do you get tired of people asking you about fear and risk and all of that? This is just the question that gets asked you in every single interview.

B (88:54)

No, I mean, actually, in some ways, I'm starting to Come. I'd say I used to get more annoyed talking about it. Now I'm starting to come around a little bit where I'm like, in a way, that's the idea that I have that's worth sharing a little bit, because I think that people should think about that more. And I'm like, oh, I don't mind talking about it, because I'm kind of like, I want people to think about. You know, it's like, I mean, particularly with this project where you're like, well, why would. You know? It's like, why is this sport considered dangerous? Where it's like, boxing is considered okay. I'm like, just because boxing is mainstream. It's like, that guy's getting punched in the face over and over. You're like, how is that cool? You know, I was like, I didn't get punched in the face. I feel great. I finished the building, I came down, I had lunch. I. I felt wonderful. I didn't have to get my jaw wired back on. It's like, geez.

A (89:33)

But on the death piece also, just being so connected with your own mortality, being present with the idea that you're kind of living on the edge, the outer edge of your capabilities, where that is a real risk. You're deeply connected to that idea, and most of us aren't.

B (89:55)

But I would argue that we all should be, because this is what I'm saying. We're all going to die the same.

A (89:58)

This is your message. Like, you know, this is like, we should. We should be thinking about these things and putting ourselves in situations where we're more present with that. So what is it that you have learned from, like, being that person who does that that is worthy for all of us to, like, understand and hear?

B (90:17)

I don't know, but. But I do think that that being mindful of your own mortality helps put other things in perspectives and helps put a lot of. A lot of anxieties and fears and other kinds of things into perspective. Like, a lot of the little stuff just doesn't freaking matter. When you think that either way, you're going to die pretty soon, you're kind of like, don't sweat the small stuff. I mean, it's all sort of cliche and whatever, but, I mean, I think that the fact that we're all going to die, there's never a downside to evaluating your own mortality. Thinking about the way that you're spending your time, thinking about the path that you're on. Like, are you doing the things that are important to you? Are you Spending your time in the way that you think is most useful, and that means the most to you, basically. Are you living in line with your values? Abuse? It's like, how often do people really think about that kind of thing? And I think that having, you know, being face to face with your immortality is a good way to evaluate things. I mean, people talk about that when they have, like, cancer scares and things like that, and they're sort of like, oh, I came face to face in my own mortality. I realized that, you know, I was going down this crazy corporate career that wasn't in line with my values, and I changed everything, and now I live a better life. I'm kind of like, you can just do that through free soloing. You should try Save a bunch of apps. Just go straight to the clip.

A (91:22)

We're getting near the end here, so please raise your hand. I want to make sure that everybody has their opportunity with Alex to ask.

B (91:29)

Him what you want. Now they're all bummed out. They're like, am I spending my life the right way?

A (91:33)

I know.

B (91:33)

Like, what am I doing with myself?

E (91:37)

I'm Meredith with Step Studios, and I guess I want to hear something outside of the fear and risk side. But now that you're spending more time at home, maybe choosing the risks that you take a little bit more wisely, what are you finding you're doing with some of your downtime that's not focused on climbing? Are there any guilty pleasures? Are there any hobbies that you're picking up that would show us a different side of you?

B (91:59)

Uh, yeah. I really like playing ping pong. Like, super fun. Uh, we have a ping pong table in our gym, so I use it to, like, warm up and cool down and, like, rest in between stuff when. When I'm training. Uh, so fun. And then, I don't know. I do crossword every day. Love crosswording, but that's about it. Those are my weird little hobbies. But nothing. Nothing else too exciting going on. On. And then a lot of parenting, basically, with having little kids yell at you and then poop on the carpet. It's the worst. Any other questions? All right, let's go play some table tennis and think about death, huh?

A (92:32)

Before we end it, I did want to give you the opportunity to share a little bit about this upcoming TV show that you're involved.

B (92:40)

Get a little about there.

A (92:41)

Yeah. Do your plug, dude.

B (92:43)

Oh. I mean, is that the thing to plug?

A (92:45)

Yeah.

B (92:45)

So I shot this travel show. I mean, in some ways, it's a wonderful contrast to the the building climb. I shot this travel show about get a little out there. It's like for travel. Nevada. And I toured around Nevada and did outdoor adventures sort of in my home state because I'm from, I live in Las Vegas. It was freaking awesome. It was super fun sort of cultural experience in a way. I was like, man, shooting a travel show is way more chill than shooting like a free soloing extravaganza because you basically just go have fun adventures with your friends, check out new places, meet interesting people. It was great. But I think that comes out in a couple weeks, so. Yeah. So if anybody's interested in traveling around about it, you should see it.

A (93:20)

And what's going on at the Honnold foundation these days?

B (93:23)

Oh, it's freaking going off. Yeah. I have a foundation that supports community solar projects around the world. And I mean, in general, we're always raising as much as we can and giving as much as we can. I think it's every year we do an open call for grant applications, which I think is open right now. So we're currently soliciting applications from around the world for community solar projects. And I think we've given over $10 million to date to projects around the world. So. Yeah. Thanks.

A (93:51)

You inspire us all. I appreciate you taking the time to be here so quickly after this extraordinary thing that you did that just really captured the hearts and minds of all of us all across the world. You're a true inspiration, Alex, and I think you might be our greatest living athlete, whether you like it or not.

B (94:09)

No chance.

A (94:09)

I always enjoy spending time with you, you and this is just really fun and great.

B (94:13)

So thank you.

A (94:15)

Appreciate it. Big hand for al.

B (94:16)

Thank you guys.

A (94:34)

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. Listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on on Apple podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and for finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects. Please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace.

B (96:08)

Namaste. Sam.