Tig Notaro Is Treading Water

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rich Roll Podcast — "Tig Notaro Is Treading Water"

Host: Rich Roll
Guest: Tig Notaro
Release Date: November 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and engaging episode, Rich Roll sits down with comedian, actor, and writer Tig Notaro to explore her life, career, and enduring resilience. The conversation dives deep into topics like personal transformation and authenticity, the impact of trauma, work-life balance, loss, health crises, stand-up comedy, creative process, plant-based living, and Tig’s celebrated new documentary "Come See Me in the Good Light." Both Roll and Notaro share candidly about recovery, family, and what it means to forge a meaningful path—on and off stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Virality, Trauma, and the Power of Authenticity

• The Largo Set: The episode opens with Tig’s reflections on her legendary 2012 Largo set, where she revealed her cancer diagnosis just days after receiving it.

  • Quote: "Good evening. Hello. I have cancer. How are you?" (00:02, Tig Notaro)
  • She explains how sharing raw, universal experiences—loss, illness, relationships—resonated widely, even though she was initially baffled by the story “going viral.”
  • Rich observes that “the consequence of that for you...you were thrust into the spotlight at your lowest” (79:34).

• Vulnerability as a Career Catalyst:

  • Tig’s comedy became more personal after a torrent of grief and illness (pneumonia, C. Diff, cancer, and losing her mother).
  • Quote: "I have no idea who I was before 2012...there were so many levels that, that four months pushed me through." (50:24, Tig Notaro)

2. The Evolution of Work/Life Balance

• Tig candidly admits that for years, she only pretended to pursue work/life balance.
  • Quote: "I was just saying what I wish I was doing...this is not work life balance." (11:56, Tig Notaro)
• Now, prioritizing family means touring one weekend a month, podcasting remotely, and moving from series regular to recurring guest star on Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.
• She details her love of ordinary routines—doubleheader baseball games with her kids and grocery shopping—as essential to her fulfillment.

3. Comedy, the Creative Process, and Industry Change

• Deadpan, Originality, and Process:

  • Rich explains that Tig’s deadpan style can be intimidating and mysterious ("Maybe it's just the deadpan kind of style of your comedy, where...you can't read where someone's coming from and they're very witty" 15:54).
  • Tig shares her writing process: “I write everything on stage. I will write a word or a phrase to trigger my memory...I’ll transfer that to a bigger napkin.” (94:12, Tig Notaro)
  • There’s “no lost writings of Tig Notaro,” just napkins with words like “tube sock, breast cancer, kitty litter.” (93:37)

• The Role of Feedback:

  • Stand-up, she notes, is unique: “You need the audience in order to hone the material and craft it.” (99:29, Rich Roll)
  • Tig values collaborating with her wife (director Stephanie Allynne), colleagues, and writers’ rooms for refining ideas.

• Comedy's Cultural Moment & Divisions:

  • Rich and Tig agree that comedy and comedians are more visible than ever via podcasts, specials, and social media, but also more divided, particularly along political and social lines.

4. Family, Upbringing & Healing Relationships

• Wild Upbringing:

  • Raised in Mississippi by a single, bohemian mother and a more stoic stepfather, Tig’s childhood was equal parts artistic chaos and instability—meals served outdoors, donkeys painted on the house, absent parents.
  • The episode features poignant reminiscence about her relationship with her stepfather, including a tearful post-funeral apology:
    • “It’s not the child's responsibility to teach the parent who they are. It’s the parent's responsibility to learn who their child is.” (34:00, Stepdad via Tig)

• On Parental Approval:

  • Both host and guest reflect on the lifelong search for parental acceptance and the rare reconciliation Tig achieved (38:15 - 39:55).

5. Health, Recovery, and Growth

• Medical Hardships:

  • Tig recaps her 2012 onslaught of illness: “sinus infection, bronchitis, pneumonia, C. Diff, loss of my mother, breakup, then invasive cancer—all within four months” (50:24).
  • Rich compares this to hitting bottom in addiction, underscoring how crisis catalyzes transformation (55:19 - 56:13).

• Plant-based Living:

  • Post-illness, Tig turned to a plant-based diet, completed the T. Colin Campbell certificate in plant-based nutrition, and lightly advocates for veganism.
  • Her approach: “You really have to have a North Star of why you’ve made this decision...” (61:30)
  • She shares playful stories of winning over skeptical family members through food (“He loved it so much...now he’s sending me pictures of vegan sushi,” 68:45).

• Parenting Perspective:

  • Tig and her wife let their sons make their own dietary choices, encouraging agency rather than rigidity (70:24).

6. The "Come See Me in the Good Light” Documentary

• Tig produced the new Apple TV documentary on poet Andrea Gibson, a longtime friend who passed from cancer in July 2025.
  • The film follows Gibson’s life, work, and final months.
  • A passion project: “I would say this is the thing I’m most proud of…and we won Sundance. [For documentaries,] films like ours don’t win. This is...out of all of the movies.” (138:59)
  • The film's impact: “Now there’s gonna be this movie, so everybody can [discover Andrea].” (142:15)
  • Tig reflects on Gibson’s accessibility: “Andrea was so...you don’t need a college degree to [be deeply affected].” (140:28)

7. Recovery and Treading Water—Literally and Figuratively

• Both Tig and Rich share details and fears around spinal fusion surgery.
  • Rich seeks Tig’s advice on recovery; she describes her unorthodox remedy:
    • “Something in me was like, I’m gonna try treading water...I started at 15 minutes and got up to an hour. It's a full body exercise that started making walking and everything else feel better.” (146:53 — 149:40)
    • This practice inspired the podcast title ("Tig Notaro Is Treading Water").
  • The discussion turns comically “old person,” as they compare injury recovery and slip-and-fall paranoia (163:19 - 163:47).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On transformation & loss:

  • “I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends…cause I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer…There’s so much in that set that people can relate to. Most people have lost a relationship. Everyone’s been affected by cancer. The loss of a parent…it was raw.” (00:02, Tig Notaro)

• On acceptance:

  • “I know now that it’s not the child’s responsibility to teach the parent who they are. It’s the parent’s responsibility to learn who their child is.” (34:00, Stepdad via Tig)

• On creative risk:

  • “I was too close to it. I was like, you like that? I didn’t…I woke up the next day and I had like 10 million voicemails…People were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I was like, what does that mean?” (78:00, Tig Notaro)

• On plant-based influence:

  • “If somebody wants to hear about it, I’ll talk about it. But I had a really fun experience recently where my aunt and uncle…went to a vegan restaurant, and he was like ‘this is—can’t believe it.’” (66:43 & 68:45, Tig Notaro)

• On the grounding power of presence:

  • “I would say I’m happier and more fulfilled than ever, on a very genuine, real level. And in a present way.” (96:45, Tig Notaro)

• On collaborative creativity:

  • “I love collaborating. When I had my show ‘One Mississippi’...transforming these topics with the writers and their experiences made that show so much better.” (103:29; 104:27, Tig Notaro)

• On adaptation and meditative endurance:

  • “I use that time, even though it’s meditative, to really think about what I want to do…big ideas come to me during that.” (152:05, Tig Notaro describing solo cycling and treading water)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:02 — Tig recounts her viral 2012 standup set after cancer diagnosis
• 11:56 — Realizations on work/life balance, shifting from series regular to “recurring guest star”
• 30:20 — Upbringing, artistic mother, tales of chaos
• 34:00 — Stepdad’s emotional apology and lesson on parental acceptance
• 50:24 — “Cracked open” by condensed period of tragedy and illness
• 79:34–84:00 — Largo set aftermath, vulnerability, and community response
• 94:12–98:28 — Creative process: “napkin method,” improvisational writing
• 140:21–144:56 — Poetry, Andrea Gibson, and “Come See Me in the Good Light”
• 146:53–151:05 — Spinal surgery recovery, "treading water" discovery, peer support

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Additional Highlights

• On podcasting: Tig co-hosts “Handsome” with Fortune Feimster and Mae Martin, and finds deep joy in silliness after an “accidentally-inspirational” public persona.
• On the state of comedy: Both note fragmentation and industry incentives steering content towards attention, not always integrity.
• On stand-up culture: Deep affection for Largo as a “community hub” where authenticity trumps polish.
• On identity: Tig describes phases of life, holding identity loosely, and not confusing routine with depression or stasis.
• On directing: Enjoyed directing but admits she lacks the passion for meticulous detail her wife brings to filmmaking.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rich tapestry of stories about endings, beginnings, and all the awkward, beautiful recovery it takes to keep moving—and sometimes, just keep treading water. Tig Notaro offers signature honesty and humor about pain, presence, and making meaning from whatever material life hands us, one napkin (or pool session) at a time.

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Watch "Come See Me in the Good Light" on Apple TV, November 14, 2025.
Follow Tig Notaro for tour dates, podcasts, and more at TigNation.com
Check out Rich’s podcast archive at richroll.com

Transcript

[Tig Notaro]

I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends and we were just like, wow, that was a crazy show, you know? Cause I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer and all of this stuff. Good evening. Hello. I have cancer. How are you? And then people were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I was like, what does that mean? What went viral? There's so much in that set that people can relate to. Most people have lost a relationship. Everyone's been affected by cancer. The loss of a parent, it was raw.

[Rich Roll]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I got Tig on today. Tig Notaro. So you've got that to look forward to because she's great and we really had a great time together. But before that, how's it going? I mean, you know, fall is here, which is nice, but now we're back to it. Being dark out so early, which I don't know about you, always lands pretty heavy for me. For whatever reason, it just seems to drain my energy and kind of makes me want to just hibernate and hide from the world. Just when the specter of the holiday season starts to rear up its head and lord over us, which always for me, seems to kick up a little bit of anxiety because I feel like it just. It puts pressure on me, on all of us, to power ourselves up at a time of year when all I want to do really is power down and kind of seclude myself a little bit. But I do have some good news to share. I had my six month check in checkup with my doc, my surgeon, and it's good news. It's a bit of a rebirth because he was able to review some brand new scans on my spine. And my fusion, I'm happy to report, is setting in nicely. There's no slippage in the L5 region. And so I got the all clear to get back to some light exercise and training. Nothing too crazy, because I still can't do anything that compresses my spine, like, for example, lifting weights above my head or flip turns or of course, running. But I can return to the pool for some light swimming and to my indoor zwift trainer to resume some spinning, which is such a huge relief because it means I can start doing a few of the things that actually make me feel like me. And of course, start working off the extra 30 pounds that I put on over the last six months, which has been a bit of an embarrassing side effect of my surgery recovery, having forced me to be more sedentary than I think I've been in my entire life and there's still a long way to go. I actually won't know until at least May if I can return to 100% because it takes 12 to 18 months for the fusion to really set in. But right now, everything is currently heading in the right direction. Already I've built up a bit of momentum, dialing in my nutrition and my fitness routine. In fact, I've already dropped about six pounds so far. So that's my big win for the week. And if there's a lesson in all of this applicable to all of you guys, I suppose it's patience. I hear so many stories of back surgeries like mine not taking or going terribly wrong, and I suspect a big reason for that is because patients lack the patience to hold back from getting back to their normal movement routines, convincing themselves that they're fine way too soon when they're actually not fine. And for me, it's helpful to always keep my eye on the long game, which is a game that requires a different kind of discipline than the kind that many athletes or many strivers rely upon to achieve their goals. The discipline to do less than you know you can when life is calling you to do that, which is like a discomfort anybody who is ambitious will be much less comfortable with than the discomfort that they're used to, which is just pushing through things. But in order to play the long game well, there are times in life, like the time that I'm in right now, when the best way to advance your life forward is to let go of all of that, even when doing so threatens your identity and challenges your ego. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. As someone who has been able to create an influential presence online and sustain it for a long period of time, I can tell you that what it requires is getting over, asking others for permission and giving it to yourself to create a platform to share your expertise, to amplify your voice, to build a community, and to serve it. To get there, get Squarespace Because Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. Award winning templates mean that you start with something beautiful right out of the gate that you anyone can then customize using drag and drop editing to build something that looks completely bespoke. The video showcase features allow you to create video libraries perfect for online courses or premium content. You can easily add paywalls to monetize your expertise directly, and their email campaign tools handle relationship building for you. So stop waiting for someone else to build for you what you can build for yourself right now. Check out squarespace.com richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code richroll if there's one thing, one thing that I believe in, it is the power of movement. Which is why I've proudly partnered with on since 2023. They're a premium sportswear brand, and what really sets them apart is their relentless dedication to innovation and performance and truly supporting athletes at every level. So last summer I had the unique honor to join ON in Paris to support their Olympic athletes and host a few panels at the On Labs Paris. And I got to spend time with the engineers responsible for creating ON's next generation gear. And what I walked away with is a real appreciation for the level of attention and intention and innovation that ON puts into every tiny detail of every single thing they create, from materials to construction to sustainability. And I just can't overestimate how inspiring this was to experience firsthand. And what I can tell you, based on my personal experience and that of many ON athletes, some of the world's best, is that when you wear their gear, you can feel the difference. It's remarkably lightweight, yet also tough enough to handle whatever your training throws at it. And there's that balance between performance and comfort that is rare. And it's what makes OnGear so versatile, whether you're deep in a training cycle or just moving through your day. So head on over to on.com richroll to explore the latest innovations in performancewear. And don't forget to sign up for the newsletter to claim a 10% discount. So Tig. Tig Notaro is a comedian. You probably know that because basically she's all over the place and kind of a big deal. Netflix specials, a New York Times best selling memoir, even a Grammy nomination. But you might not know that she's also an actor. She stars in Star Trek, Starfleet Academy, as well as a screenwriter and a filmmaker. And I was surprised to discover just how many projects she has produced and is involved in. And she's in the studio today to talk about her wild upbringing, her deadpan comedic style, her creative process, her cancer diagnosis and her plant based lifestyle. We also get into exactly what is going on in the comedy scene right now, including what she makes of comedians. With podcasts becoming important platforms not just for popular culture, but for culture war talk and most importantly, politics at the highest level of power. You can check out Tig's podcast Handsome Which I guess is sort of like a queer smartless, but smarter. And the new doc that she produced called Come See Me in the Good Light, which is about her friend, poet laureate Andrea Gibson, who passed away from cancer this past July. And that doc, which is pretty great, I had not watched it at the time that we had done our conversation, but I have since. It's fantastic. You should check it out. And it's Premiering on Apple TV this week on November 14th. We're rolling. Tig, you're here. You came here in a rainstorm.

[Tig Notaro]

I did.

[Rich Roll]

You drove a car here.

[Tig Notaro]

I did.

[Rich Roll]

You don't own a car, but you borrowed your wives.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I appreciate making the trek. I'm so delighted to talk to you today. And I wanted to start by saying I'm dying to know. Like, I don't know if you have any awareness of this whatsoever, but it was probably. Must have been at least two years ago, maybe three years ago. I was leaving Whole Foods in New York City, and I was walking down the street, like in the Bowery, and I saw you coming towards me. And for a moment we, like, locked eyes. And I thought, oh. Cause I remembered that you had this whole plant based certification thing. And I was like, maybe she might know who I am from, like, the weird subculture of, like, vegan people. And I was like, no, she doesn't know. I was like, I'm not doing that. And we kind of like. And then we just passed each other and that was that.

[Tig Notaro]

I don't recall that day, but I'm heartbroken. I know who you are. That is why I drove my wife's car here in a rainstorm.

[Rich Roll]

Well, we have Jason to thank.

[Tig Notaro]

Yes.

[Rich Roll]

Longtime employee, employee number one engineer. Cause he went to your show and got called on by you.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. We were chatting and I was like, and what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm a podcast producer. And I'm like, there's what, 10 trillion podcasts? And I'm like, what are you. What podcast? He's like, rich roll. I'm like, okay. That's like the one podcast that's crazy for me.

[Rich Roll]

It's always surreal for me to hear stuff like that, but super cool.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, even that. You know, who I am. It's. It goes.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, but you're everywhere. I mean, I was just saying before we started, like, you have so many. It's impossible to keep track of, like, all the projects and specials and documentaries and, you know, everything that's going on with you. TV shows, Star Trek. I mean, it's wild. Like, I don't know how you do it all.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, I've, you know, for years I've been doing interviews where people will ask about work life balance. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm really getting on that work life balance. I'm really applying it. And then one day I realized, no, I'm not. I'm just saying that. I'm just like, I'm saying what I wish I was doing. And then I was in Toronto filming this new season of the new. It hasn't aired yet, but it's. Starfleet Academy is the new series starring Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti as the villain.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, really? Oh, wow.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. But I was like, I'm just living in Toronto for six months without my family. This is not work life balance. And so I downgraded myself to just a recurring guest star. And I have my weekly podcast and now I'm gonna tour in the new year. And I told my agent I only wanna go out a weekend a month. And so to me, that is work life balance. That feels totally manageable to just go out to Toronto and film an episode, a few episodes a season, and go out of town a weekend a month and stay home and podcast.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. You do the podcast from your house, right, or wherever you are?

[Tig Notaro]

I do, yeah, my house. I have a home office or if I'm in a hotel room. And then if all three hosts. Cause I co host this with two other comedians, Fortune Feimster and Mae Martin. And if we're all in the same city, we will podcast at the Headgum Studios. But it's very rare. Almost never it's hard cause we're all touring comedians, we're all on TV shows and. Yeah, so we're busy.

[Rich Roll]

And how's handsome going?

[Tig Notaro]

Handsome's going really well. It's exactly what I was looking for in a podcast because I love silliness and I think because I've had a lot of public challenges in my life, a lot health related, I've kind of become. I accidentally became this person that people would. I don't even know how to say this without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back. But like inspiring and all of that kind of stuff, which is great. I love for people to be inspired in a positive way. But I also am a very deeply silly person. And I describe myself as 100% no nonsense, and then 100% all nonsense. So handsome kind of allows me to get in there and be that.

[Rich Roll]

Be silly. Yeah, it's very fresh. You know, I like it a lot. It's cool. And it has such a, you know, a distinct voice to it that's different. I mean, you know, it's like a trope at this point. Like, every comedian has a podcast, but there's a very specific, like, you know, route that you're taking, the three of you together, that I think is important in the whole kind of, like, podcast to Stan or whatever you want to call it, but with you specifically. I was joking with the team earlier. I was like, I'm kind of scared of Tig. Like, she's intimidating. Maybe I'm intimidated by comedians in general, and maybe it's just like, the deadpan kind of style of your comedy, where it's like, maybe it's just when you can't read where someone's coming from and they're very witty, you know, it makes me back on my heels a little bit.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, please don't feel that way.

[Rich Roll]

I don't. I feel very. I feel very welcome right now.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. Am I as scary as you thought?

[Rich Roll]

No, I don't think so. I don't know. It's just my internal monologue and my insecurity, most likely.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, I love trying to find interesting ideas and people in the world of. I don't even know. Like, do you consider yourself in the world of wellness? And is that. I don't know.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, that word is now, like, sort of morphed in a way that makes me a little uneasy. I would have said absolutely a handful of years ago, and now I'm not so sure.

[Tig Notaro]

Whatever you are, it feels like there are people doing similar things that you do. But I've never felt so far that you splinter off from what I think or feel. And if you do, I feel open to hearing your perspective because you feel like a very reasonable person.

[Rich Roll]

I try to be.

[Tig Notaro]

I think you really are. You feel open. You feel like you have your ideas, but you just feel grounded and reasonable. And so it's just allowed me to follow what you're doing. And whereas other people. I'm like, where are you going? Yeah, I don't.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, we've all had that experience of whether it's a podcast or somebody we follow online, and you're like, oh, I like this person. And then at some point, there's a inflection point, and they diverge or go in a different direction, and that person always probably thinks that they're being, you know, consistent with their integrity or true to themselves or whatever. And part of it is, like, what we project on People that we don't know. But also online, there's an incentive structure that has bent more and more people in strange directions that, at least for me, I've had that experience as well where I was like, oh, I thought this was one thing. Now I'm realizing it's another. Have I changed? Have they changed? You know, I always say they changed. You know, they would probably think that they've. They stayed the same because that's the way the human brain operates. But it has been fairly deranging over the last couple years to see. I don't even know how you would put it, like, the. How the incentive structure of, like, online creators has moved people in interesting directions.

[Tig Notaro]

And what. How would you describe the incentive structure?

[Rich Roll]

Well, I think due to algorithms, they make creative decisions about the content that they're creating based upon what they think that will serve the algorithm and result in the maximum amount of attention. And if you're making decisions based on that, you're going to host contrarians and people with outrageous takes or people that are gonna, you know, foment drama. And so you're not really making those decisions based upon, like, whatever core mission you're on. Like, you know, like, what are we actually doing here? And, like, what's important and what am I trying to provide the audience with? You're just thinking about eyeballs.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Because the dollars follow the eyeballs.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, they do.

[Rich Roll]

So, you know, we don't have to name names or anything, but, like, there's a lot of that right now. And so I think a lot about that. I'm like, you know, is this in service to the audience? Is this consistent with, like, my worldview, et cetera, and trying to not make decisions about that? Which means you're not going to be necessarily competitive in the marketplace, because the marketplace is demanding that of people right now. And that's kind of a drag.

[Tig Notaro]

I think it kind of reminds me of what I was just saying about trying to find, you know, balance in my life and my work. And it's so easy to get caught up in, oh, here's a job and here's this amount of money, and here's, are you gonna do this? And will you do this? And I think for a while I was. I know for a while I was just doing it and I was following it. I wasn't doing anything that was against my belief system, but it was more so I wasn't really being present with the reality of my life until I was sitting in Toronto for six months. And I really got in touch with it and really made a shift. And I know I really made a shift because when I would tell people that I chose to go from a series regular, like on the show guaranteed pay to just a recurring guest star, the response is a little. People were very surprised. You know, and you can say, oh, that's because you've had success or you have a savings account or whatever it is. Sure. But also, I need to still work. It's not like I can just.

[Rich Roll]

And it's a consistent paycheck and a good paycheck.

[Tig Notaro]

It is.

[Rich Roll]

It's hard to say no to that.

[Tig Notaro]

It is. But I realized the reality of what I want was not lining up with how I was living. And it's way more important to me to actually be at the doubleheader baseball game on Sundays with my sons, grocery store. I walk around our house singing this very uncatchy song. Well, maybe you'd be into it. But I'm like, I'm a normal person doing normal things, living a normal life. Cause I'm normal. But I love it. I love the routine of being with my family and the day to day and then my work being my work.

[Rich Roll]

Well, kids will do that.

[Tig Notaro]

Mm.

[Rich Roll]

But also, how much of that is a response or a reaction to pursuing a career, you know, for many, many, many years that is so uncertain? You know, like, it's. You never know where the next paycheck is gonna come from. Like, it's very, you know, hardscrabble. Now you're in a place where it doesn't have to be that way, and there's a craving for a normal life. Whereas somebody who has had a 9 to 5 their whole life, they're like, oh, my God, what would it be like to just, you know, go to the comedy club every night and, like, you know, like, that seems, you know, very appealing to that person.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh. And that's where I was. I mean, I've been doing comedy for almost 30 years, and I could not believe that I was making a living doing standup. And I was. I failed three grades, dropped out of high school. I was kind of aimless, and I liked music, maybe wanted to work in the music business. Did a little bit, but I was really bouncing around and had no stability and no focus in life. And the fact that I found some focus and success in comedy was wild. And I was so thankful and anxious to jump in there and. But yeah, I think obviously life changes and priorities shift. And when I was really little, I was so into sports and art so passionately and I moved on. And then I was. You know, I played guitar and drums, and I just. I was so into that, and I moved on. And then I found myself with this identity as a comedian. And then you think because you're so public and you've done it for so long, that this is the thing, but then it shifts again. Cause for a while, I was so confused that, like, why would I. I just want to, like, be at home. And what's wrong with. Am I, like, deeply depressed? And then I was just taking my daily walk one day, and I was like. I remembered I was into art. I was so focused on working on guitar playing and drums. And then it shifts. It's like, I'm not deeply depressed. I'm just a different person.

[Rich Roll]

Well, there's something to holding your identity loosely. It's like, well, I'm a comedian, and this is what I do. And if you're holding on too tightly to that, then you perhaps miss out on other ways of finding happiness and fulfillment.

[Tig Notaro]

And that's what I feel. So thankful that I can still be a comedian and put on my space suit and go.

[Rich Roll]

I know. Did you ever dream you would be on Star Trek?

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, my God.

[Rich Roll]

That's a whole thing.

[Tig Notaro]

It is a whole thing.

[Rich Roll]

World that you're. It's not like being on a normal TV show. Right. Like, it comes with a whole universe of expectations and rabid fans.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. My brother and I were very into the original series when we were little and had the action figures.

[Rich Roll]

I went to the conventions when I was a little kid.

[Tig Notaro]

Okay.

[Rich Roll]

Now I know. Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

Okay, now we've splintered. Finally, I found this.

[Rich Roll]

I just lost. I just lost a loyal podcast fan.

[Tig Notaro]

No, I.

[Rich Roll]

Who's on one of the shows.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, no, the people. The fans are so. Yeah. So devoted and they're so kind. It is wild how earnest and kind and passionate these people are.

[Rich Roll]

You have to go to, like, the sort of Comic Con events where you sign autographs and stuff like that.

[Tig Notaro]

I don't have to.

[Rich Roll]

People dress up.

[Tig Notaro]

Yes. I've been to Comic Con. I hosted the Star Trek panel when. This is my second Star Trek series.

[Rich Roll]

Right.

[Tig Notaro]

The first one was Star Discovery, and when I was on that series, I hosted the Star Trek panel at a Comic Con in San Diego. And then when that show ended, my character just jumped over to Starfleet Academy, which hasn't aired yet. It airs in January of 2026. But, yeah, I didn't imagine I would end up my friend Alex Kurtzman, who runs the whole Star Trek universe.

[Rich Roll]

Oh. Orsi too. They did Alias.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, they did Alias. They did Mission Imposs.

[Rich Roll]

Like Transformers.

[Tig Notaro]

So many things. Bob sadly passed away in February of this year. But I had known Bob and Alex from when I first moved to LA and I needed a job. I was a terrible receptionist at Sam Raimi's company, the director, and he was the executive producer of Xena and Hercules and all these different TV shows. But anyway, Alex and I have remained friends, and he brought me in to talk to me about doing a part on Star Discovery. And I honestly thought it would be an episode or two. And I was like, yeah, great. You know, people say, we'd love to have you as much as we can. And it's like, yeah, sure. Even though he was a friend, I was still like, I'd probably be in and out quickly. And then he kept having me back. And now I'm going on my second series. So, no, I didn't see it coming. But I am proud to be a part of that world because it is. It's just, you know, they try to do good with. With what they're. The storytelling, and it's a really nice crew and cast. It just feels good.

[Rich Roll]

Well, in a different age, it would have been shot in Los Angeles and you would have been able to do it. But that's not the Hollywood of today.

[Tig Notaro]

No, it's not. Yeah, you have to go to London, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, Austin. I mean, they're all great places, but.

[Rich Roll]

So I want to understand the origin story here. You're this kid growing up in Mississippi in, like, it's kind of a small town. Right? Like, right on the water.

[Tig Notaro]

I was born in Jackson, and then we moved down to Pass Christian, which is. It's two words, pass and Christian, which is the Cajun pronunciation for Christian.

[Rich Roll]

It's near, like, Biloxi. It's not that far from New Orleans. Right.

[Tig Notaro]

Without traffic. It's about an hour east from New Orleans.

[Rich Roll]

And it seems like you. I mean, first of all, seventh grade was the last time you went to school?

[Tig Notaro]

The last year that I graduated, but I also lived in Texas. We moved from Mississippi to Texas, and Texas is where I dropped it. I failed eighth grade twice. I failed it again, but they just moved me up to ninth grade just so I didn't throw myself off of something. And then I get to ninth grade and I fail.

[Rich Roll]

That Was that because you just couldn't focus or what was going on?

[Tig Notaro]

I couldn't focus. I had a lot going on at home. It was just a circus. It was an absolute circus.

[Rich Roll]

Well, your mom Sounds like a complete character.

[Tig Notaro]

Yes.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, I even like wrote down on your website in your bio, like you say, Tig, affectionately named by her brother as a child, was born in Jackson, Mississippi, and was raised by her single mother in past Christian, Mississippi. During hot summer days, her artistic and free spirited mother would feed the children all three meals at once, then hose down their diapered bodies in high chairs to cut back on cooking and cleaning, leaving more time for her to paint donkeys on the outside of their house.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, is that not your.

[Rich Roll]

No, that was not my. That was not my childhood.

[Tig Notaro]

That was very much mine. Yeah. My mother was an artist and the outside of our house was her canvas. And she, you know, for our birthday party, she truly painted a donkey so we could play pin the tail on the donkey. And, you know, she was doing her best, but she didn't have much. She just was a very wild, free thinking, free spirited artist that raised me with this core belief that if anybody has a problem with me, they can go to hell. And that's what she told me my whole childhood. Tell them to go to hell.

[Rich Roll]

And a little bit of chaos, too.

[Tig Notaro]

A lot. A lot of chaos.

[Rich Roll]

That for a young person maybe, you know, made home feel a little destabilizing.

[Tig Notaro]

For sure. I mean, my parents split when I was six months, and so my stepfather came along and he had stability, but he traveled a lot. So we moved out of the house with donkeys on the wall. But they needed each other. My stepfather, my mother, because he grounded her. He grounded her. Literally. He would get grounded because, you know, she would sometimes put us to bed and go out for the night. But anyway. Yeah, say no more. Yeah, it was that kind of environment. But also she would pull him out of his shell. He was very stoic and wasn't quite.

[Rich Roll]

Able to see you for you.

[Tig Notaro]

No, he did finally. And it was a really beautiful, touching moment. After my mother's funeral, we were leaving Mississippi and, I mean, this guy, we were aliens to each other. He was more patient, I think, with my mother because he was married to her. But he just. And my brother was playing sports and doing well in school, and I was just over here smoking and failing and riding a skateboard and, you know, listening to Van Halen and, you know, like, he didn't even know what to do with me. And so when we were driving away from my mother's funeral, he was. He said that he wanted to apologize to me for something. And that in itself was like, what could that possibly be? And he apologized for years before he had told me that my career was a waste of my time and my intelligence. And it was devastating because I had pride in having gotten through my childhood and all of my failures. And then I was making not just a living, but a good living for myself as a comedian. And it was. Even though I hadn't fully broken through at that point, it was 2012. I had a great life.

[Rich Roll]

Sure. I mean, by 2012, you're a well known, established.

[Tig Notaro]

I was a headlining comedian.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. Like there's plenty of evidence that you're out there killing it. And he couldn't give it up.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. He still encouraged me to go to business school. Or he said, I always thought you'd make a good attorney. And I said to him, I'm saying, I am so happy I found happiness and direction and I'm making a really good living. And I said, you're telling me you think I should leave that and go to business school? And he said, absolutely. And so that's what he apologized for. And he said, I realize now. And he got emotional, which I had never seen the robot cry. And he said, you know, I was projecting onto you what I thought your life should be based on what I did or what I was told. And he said, and I never really understood you. And I just want to tell you that I know now that it's not the child's responsibility to teach the parent who they are. It's the parent's responsibility to learn who their child is. And I didn't do that. And this is all through tears, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, we just buried my mother. I can't believe she missed this. Cause this is all she wanted. You know, she supported anything I was doing artistically or. I mean, she wanted me to go to school, but she was definitely my cheerleader.

[Rich Roll]

Right. You're the more mature and fully expressed version of her on some level. Right. Like you were able to channel her spirit and put it into something tangible.

[Tig Notaro]

I think so, yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Well, that's really beautiful that he gave it up for you, though, that he was able to acknowledge that, like, to have the self awareness and then express it to you.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, my gosh. And then he. When my mother. After my mother was gone, you know, he was. And my biological father died a couple of years after my mother. And so Rick, my stepfather, he became my. That was my parent. And I, you know, I couldn't believe this was who I had to go to for everything. And, you know, he's just like, what is that? Mm. Yes. Well, and it was so, so crazy, but he really stepped up and he really shifted and he. Not that he wouldn't have, like, paid for my wedding, but he was like cake shopping with Stephanie's mother and me and Stephanie and Stephanie's sister and my brother. Like, all of us met in New Orleans and we're driving around cake test. That's not anything he would have done if my mother was alive. And he. Even though my cousin hosted our wedding, Rick paid for it. And one of the most amazing. And he was never. I was never shunned for being gay or anything, but this was like classic Rick. And it was also so touching, but on my wedding day. And he just. Everything should be a certain way with him, you know? And I, I was wearing like a suit and had a shirt. I didn't have a tie or anything. But he came up and he said, tig, I was wondering if you would like to borrow my tie today for your wedding.

[Rich Roll]

It's sweet.

[Tig Notaro]

It's so sweet. And I was like, oh, Rick. Because he was really acknowledging who. And I'm not a tie wearing lesbian. But I appreciated that he was.

[Rich Roll]

You would think maybe that might be something that Tig would like.

[Tig Notaro]

Exactly. And I was so touched by that. And I said, oh, no, thank you, Rick. I don't want to wear a tie. But in his mind, you wear a suit. And with the suit comes a tie. And he's happy to take off his. To give to his daughter for her wedding day. And then when we had kids, he flew out like twice a year and would be on the floor playing with them. And I'm like, I'd call my brother, I'd be like, who the hell is this? So crazy.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, you got it. You know, it's. We're like of the same age, and I talk about this all the time, but it's. It's kind of shocking that we're, you know, we're in our 50s, late 50s, and. And we're all hung up about, like, how our parents feel about us and stuff. I mean, I have a similar, you know, an analogous situation. Like my mom has dementia right now, but she could never give it up. You know, I'm. I'm the great disappointment. And, you know, you can still go to medical school and like, you know, the same. It's just a different version of the same story. Right?

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

And all we want is, you know, love and acceptance, and for some reason it's so difficult to get it. And everyone's out there doing the best they can based upon the way that they were raised, and nobody really knows what they're doing, and all we can do is try to do a little bit better for our kids and interrupt those patterns. And, you know, usually we go to the extreme. Like, we go too far into the extreme, and then that has to swing back. But you, you know, like, you got what so many people, like, go to their grave wishing that they could have gotten.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, I feel so, so lucky. And for, like I said, for a while, I was like, I can't believe my mother. We literally just buried her, and we're driving away, and this is what happens. But then I thought, if I had a moment with my mother, and I said, I can't believe you missed that. Rick apologized for everything, and he accepts me for who I am, and I didn't know I needed it from him, but the relief and the tears and the gratitude I felt, I was like, I can't believe I needed that all of this time.

[Rich Roll]

But he might have shared it with her earlier, and she might have said, you know, you should say that to Tig one day.

[Tig Notaro]

You know what? Actually, now that you say that, I think that is what happened. Because right before my mother died, they had called to say they wanted to come out and visit me. And it was after that phone call, when I'm not somebody, that I'm not a big complainer, I don't call home like this happened. But there was something that happened in the comedy world where I was a little confused and thrown off and hurt, and I didn't know what to do with that information. And when I called home and talked to them, that's when Rick said, well, you know, should probably go to business school. And I was like, wait, what? That's not why I was calling for some support, you know, and to hear that I should just extract myself from my life. That's why I said to him, this is just a bad day at work for me. This isn't a bad life. And that is, now that you say it, my mother died shortly after they called to try and make a plan to come out. And it was partly because Rick wanted to apologize to me for that. And. But when I imagine saying to my mother, like, rick finally did this and said this, I imagine knowing my mother so well that she would have just said, it doesn't matter that I missed it. Just the fact that it happened at all is what's important. And I do. I feel. I know it's rare what I got. And what's even crazier is My whole. Like so many kids, I was such an impatient kid. And my stepfather, you know, he was just so. Like, tig, you have to be patient. There is. Everything has a process. Everything. It was all about, well, he's not wrong.

[Rich Roll]

No, it's good. It's so good.

[Tig Notaro]

But what's crazy, what ended up coming full circle was when he. He ended up dying from a disease I had, which. One of the diseases I had, which was C. Diff. Which is a. I'm sure you know, it's a intestinal disease that is very deadly. And when I had it, he had never heard of it, and most people hadn't at that time. It's becoming more prevalent. It's a superbug. But anyway, when he was on his deathbed three years ago, I was with him, and my brother was trying to get there in time. And so I had this concentrated time with. He was on a respirator. He couldn't talk, but he was completely coherent. And the nurses told me, when I got there, they said, he's. He's ready. And I said, okay. And they said, you need to. We need you to just confirm with him that he understands that when we take him off this machine, that that is the end. And I was like, okay. It was just so much to take in. And I was. You know, it was very emotional. And. And I explained to him, I said, rick, the nurses, the doctors say that you are ready, and I just want you to know, like, I support this, but if we do take you off, you do understand that this is. That's it. This is the end. And he nodded yes. And then the doctor or somebody came in and said, yes, grabbed the doctor and said, there's an emergency. And they had to pull the doctor from there. And they said it was going to take a while. And Rick was like. As time went on, his arms were flailing. He was frustrated. He was very frustrated. And I got to have a moment next to him where I was like, rick, as you told me my whole life, you have to be patient. After, I said, it's a process.

[Rich Roll]

You couldn't help it. You couldn't help it.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, my God. But it was so incredible that at the end. And he nodded. He nodded yes, and his arms came down. And it was such a touching, funny moment that I got to actually apply what he taught me my entire life. I got to tell him that the doctor had to go, and we'll be back. But it's a process, and you have to be patient.

[Rich Roll]

That's unbelievable.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, I just. I can't even believe that that was my final moment with.

[Rich Roll]

Good Lord, the holiday season. I can't believe it. But once again, it's here, a time of year that I tend to find overwhelming because I'm a creature of routines and I don't like my routines being disrupted. But that's just the deal with holidays, all the travel, the family gatherings, eating patterns that go sideways. I think it's okay to admit that it can all be a little bit too much at times. To combat the chaos, I try to double down on portable routines that work and don't demand that much time. And at the top of that list is AG1NextGen, who's sponsoring this episode. It is a daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotic superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop that's clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. In order to stick, routines need to be simple. So I keep it that way. Just cold water, a scoop of AG1 done. One solid health decision just locked in before the day gets away from me. The next gen formula has five probiotic strains working with prebiotics to support digestion, which matters when your eating routine gets thrown up the window. And with more people getting sick this time of year, having that broad spectrum of vitamins, minerals and antioxidants feels like the smart play. Plus now there are four flavor options, including Original Citrus Berry and Tropical, so there's something for everyone. Head to drinkag1.com rich roll to claim your free welcome kit. You'll get a sample pack of all four flavors, a bottle of vitamin D3K2, and a shaker bottle. That's drinkag1.com richroll to give AG1 a try today, immune health is one of those things that most people don't really think about unless they're sick or getting sick. But the real game is promotion played in the daily choices you make when you're feeling just fine. And that's my approach with Peak's Daily Radiance Liposomal vitamin C, which I've been taking as part of my morning ritual as well as part of my surgery recovery. Because vitamin C has antioxidants, of course, which help with collagen production, which is not just for skin health but also wound healing, which is key for me, while among other things, vitamin C reduces inflammation and pain, obviously important in my recovery process. And what makes this product different is that PEEC's liposomal technology protects the vitamin C from your stomach acid, so it actually gets to your cells intact. Most vitamin C supplements break down in your digestive system before they can even do any good. And when I switched up, the difference was actually pretty noticeable. It's got vitamin C plus black elderberry, which supports gut health. And that matters because 80% of your immune system lives in your gut. It's buffered, which means it won't bother your stomach and it tastes like berries instead of something medicinal that you gotta force down, which obviates the palatability problem with most liposomal products. And the single serve packets make it easy to take with me anywhere I go. So boost your immune system and your glow, get 20% off for life and explore all of Peak's pure ingredient [e-mail] richroll that's P I Q U E life.com richroll you've gone through a lot. He passed away. Your mom passed away. Pneumonia.

[Tig Notaro]

My father passed away.

[Rich Roll]

C Diff. Yeah, your father. And then the cancer diagnosis. That's a lot of life.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg, but yeah, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

And then, you know, the journey to having children and all of that. I appreciate the transparency and the vulnerability with which you've kind of shared all of this publicly in your comedy, but also in the TIG documentary, et cetera. How do you think about those words like authenticity and vulnerability? Because your comedy wasn't always as personal as it evolved into.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, as far as those words authenticity and vulnerability, I mean, I'm good with that. I connect with that. I definitely like the idea of feeling congruent with my life with my. That's like what I was saying about live life and work balance. I just, I want things to line up and feel right and it doesn't always. And I'm always searching for ways for it to feel that way, but I think I really am that person. And I wasn't. I feel like in 2012, when it was four months, I had like a sinus infection, bronchitis, pneumonia contracted C. Diff.

[Rich Roll]

And was the C. Diff a reaction to the antibiotics for the pneumonia?

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, the antibiotics can clear out your gut and leave C. Diff alone to thrive, which is in your gut. And it works great when the other bacteria's in there. I know you know this, but. So, yeah, I took antibiotics for the pneumonia and then developed C. Diff. And then my mother tripped and hit her head and died. And then my girlfriend and I split up and then I was diagnosed with invasive cancer. And that was in a four month period of time. And that's what cracked me open. And I have no idea who I was before 2012. When I see pictures and I just, even though I was on my path and comedy and I was out and I was all of these things, there were so many levels that, that four months like pushed me through that I didn't even at first when people would say, do you think you needed a wake up call? Was this a wake up? And I was like, no, I don't feel like I'm somebody that needed a wake up call. But as time went on I was like, no, not that I think all of that happened for me to have a wake up call. But whatever happened, for whatever reason I did get a wake up call. It just took me a long time to realize that I was not living as presently as I. I didn't even think about, I wasn't thinking about what I was eating or drinking or hanging out with. I was just, I was just living my life.

[Rich Roll]

Well, I want to understand that better because I think for the average person, like if they were to look at you at the time, well, you're in your career, like things are happening, like you're funny, like you're moving up the ladder, becoming more successful, everything seems fine. Like what do you mean? What do you mean? Like what. So what do you mean a wake up call? Like, what was it specifically that that series of experiences like in such a condensed period of time brought to the surface that, that needed reckoning? Like what, what was it that you had to confront to create more integrity?

[Tig Notaro]

I think I didn't. This is what comes to mind right away is I didn't really understand the preciousness of everything, whether it was health, life, relationships. I looked back on people that I dated and I'm thankful for every experience I've had and every person I've dated. But I was so not present in ways in relationships. And I think and I'm basically friendly with everybody that I've dated, but there were people that I later went back to and said, I don't know how you dealt with me. I was so, I just self centered and just like doing whatever I wanted to do. And yeah, I was younger but even down to like I said what I was putting into my body, I just didn't even think about anything and I took risks that I was always a risk taker as a kid.

[Rich Roll]

Shocker. I mean, come on. Like you're like, yeah, it's like you have a very like liberal relationship with risk. Like you were doing all kinds of stuff like for you to, you know, drop out of school and you know, become this music manager and tour like you were bouncing around doing lots of different things. Like that is scary to the average person.

[Tig Notaro]

Risky. Like risky, risky.

[Rich Roll]

Okay, risky. Risky.

[Tig Notaro]

No, risky. Like I would not repeat on this show because I wouldn't want to give anybody ideas. So just took risks that. I'm glad I had that in my personality because I feel like I've been able to channel it in a different and positive direction in my life, my career. Like talking publicly about having cancer or I did my HBO special with my shirt off. Those are risks that I want to take now.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, those are creative risks. That's different.

[Tig Notaro]

But it's still, I think it's rooted in just that, that core part of me that I'll take a risk.

[Rich Roll]

You know, I haven't experienced the kind of loss that you've experienced and I certainly haven't had a life threatening illness. My only point of reference here or analogous life experience is just, you know, bottoming out on drugs and alcohol and getting sober. And that's its own kind of like reckoning where you realize like how you've lived your life unconsciously or reactively in a certain way and in some degree of self obsession. Right. And the experience of getting sober kind of disabuses you of that and you set a new trajectory for yourself. And it sounds like that's sort of the experience that you had. Like, I'm trying to help people understand, like what was it about, like confronting your mortality and the mortality of the people that you care about that made it so clear to you that you needed to make these changes?

[Tig Notaro]

I don't think I had a full understanding or appreciation of how quickly things can go away. And then in that four months losing, like just being in hospital bed after hospital bed, wheelchair after wheelchair, I remember turning to my girlfriend at one point going, this can't be normal that a 40 something year old is constantly in a wheelchair or diapers. You know, it's so humbling where it's like, gosh. Also, I had never been so sick. I had the luxury of like so many people. You have a headache or a stomachache, there's a medication you can take and you're done. I couldn't get ahold of my health. I was slipping away. I could not turn my health around. I was losing so much weight, I was struggling for so long. And when that happens, the windshield wipers of like, I gotta turn this ship around. I gotta. Everything just became very precious to me. And it was Relationships. It was. My mother tripped and died. I didn't see that coming. I didn't. That was right around my birthday. So when Rick called me, I was like, oh, this is. You know, this is a birthday phone call. It wasn't, you know, she just tripped.

[Rich Roll]

Fell, hit her head, and that was it.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, she was on life support, but.

[Rich Roll]

It wasn't like, oh, she broke her hip and, like, she was on a decline for many months. It was a very sudden thing.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, she hit her head. And then Rick was there and helped her up, checked her out, and then he went to bed, and she stayed up and was watching Jimmy Kimmel. And then he said when he got up in the morning, she just was covered in blood and never was conscious again. And so those really difficult, forced moments of your mother's gone and your health is gone, and you can't turn it around. You cannot beg the universe enough to bring your mother back and fix any issue or have any future with her, that it's just gone. And then not be able to turn the ship around. With my health, I just had to wait and see if my body was going to respond to the treatment. And it, you know, took a while, and it was. It was hard. But all of that stuff, you can't help but look back and reflect on what you did in life and who you did that with and how you did it and how you would do it so differently and. And it's hard to stay in that moment, too, because I am human.

[Rich Roll]

Snap back.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah. You have such clarity. And I have changed. I'm thrilled I've changed. But I have moments where I find myself coasting. Like I said in an interview, saying, oh, yeah, life, work, balance. I'm on top of that. And I've been like, no, I'm not. I'm not. And I'm asleep in this conversation.

[Rich Roll]

This sense of powerlessness, I mean, it kind of forces a surrender, right, that cures you, at least temporarily, of that self obsession and allows you to see your life a little bit more clearly. One of the things I think a lot about is extreme moments like that. These are the levers of change. Like if you, you know, these changes or a deeper level of self awareness, they're always available to us. Like, we can change in any moment, and we all know what our bad behaviors are or what our patterns are. But, you know, it's so difficult to do it, and it takes kind of some kind of intervening external event like that to shake us up and actually create the willingness to make those changes. Why can't we just, you know, elect to do them when. Why do we have to be in so much pain in order to do it?

[Tig Notaro]

It's really wild. It really is. Because, I mean, this is so minor. But it's like, even after being so sick and shifting to what I believe is a healthier diet, I'm also plant based. And people will talk to me about it and say, like, how do you do it? How do you stay focused on that? How do you. And I always say, like, you really have to have a North Star of why you've made this decision. You can't. This isn't just like a diet that you have to be driven by your health or your love for animals or your concern for the planet or whatever it is that is going to keep you in line. It's not a. During the pandemic, people, a couple of people were like, you stayed vegan during.

[Rich Roll]

The pandemic, even that's like, that's where you were really. You kicked it into high gear during the pandemic. You were like, like, there was one moment, where is she quitting comedy and she's just going to be a health coach now?

[Tig Notaro]

Like, you were like, I thought when I. When the pandemic ended, I was on set with Reese Witherspoon doing a movie and I was talking to her, I was like, oh, my gosh. I. I got a plant based nutrition certification and. And I've been helping, you know, my family member and comedians and my next door neighbor who had high blood pressure. And it's just, I thought that maybe I'll do this as like a side gig. And she said, oh, my gosh. She goes, tig, that's gonna make you hundreds of dollars. It was so funny. But, yeah, I started to think, and it is, it's a huge passion of mine. Cause I have seen great results, like, feel so good. And I did. I thought, what am I gonna do with all this time? And a lot of comedians were doing.

[Rich Roll]

Like everyone else is. This is their moment to do a daily show or really work on their material and be an online vegetables or start a zoom podcast.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Like Smartless started during the pandemic, I think, right. As a sort of, we need something to do maybe.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, look, I did two podcasts. I had Don't Ask Tig, and then I had Tig and Cheryl with Cheryl Hines. But that ended. That ended. But those both. Those both ended. Both of those ended. I was doing those simultaneously and then shut those down and then just went towards Handsome, which is the one I'm doing now. But a lot of standups were doing. What were they, like drive in movie shows where if people thought it was funny, they'd honk or they'd do zoom standup. And I was like, I love standup, but not that much where I'm gonna take a honk.

[Rich Roll]

Not as much as you loved T. Colin Campbell at the time. This is the weird where our lives intersect in a very strange way. You know, like, I'm, you know, I've had T. Colin Campbell on the podcast, like, way back in the early days, like, this is. That's my world. You know, it's a very interesting world. And for you to say not. It's like, just so people understand. Like, you didn't just go vegan or plant based. Like, you, you went deep, like, and you know, so far as to get your certificate in plant based nutrition from the T. Colin Campbell, you know, school at, like, Cornell, which is like, it's not a. I know plenty of people who've done that course. I haven't personally, but, like, it's pretty rigorous. Like, it's. It's not a small thing. And not only that, like, officially, you know, you. You graduated from seventh grade, you high school, but on your website, you still have like a. Oh, click here to like, learn about this. And there's an article that you wrote on, like, the T. Colin Campbell nutrition studies website where you're like, student of the month. Did you know that?

[Tig Notaro]

No.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

That's hilarious.

[Rich Roll]

Maybe I did. You've been even. This is your academic honor.

[Tig Notaro]

I know. Well, I ended up getting my ged. My mother and my stepfather were like, if you drop out, you have to get your ged. And so I did. They put such importance in it. And I got it and I left it on the kitchen table and my cat ate it. And so I have what's left of it in a frame in my office at home. Because I would tell my parents, I was like, just so you know, the important certificate ended up in the kitty litter box, ultimately. So, yeah, I have two certificates. I have the general education diploma that's eaten by my cat, and then I have the plant based nutrition certification. And it was really just. I wanted to know more because I was so fascinated by the shift in how I felt. And the. I just, I wasn't in the level of pain that I was in. And so I just wanted to know more. And I also, I don't try to convert people, but if somebody wants to hear about it, I'll talk about it.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that gets tricky. The culture has shifted a little bit. There was a period of time there where people were all about it, and it seems like people are less all about it right now.

[Tig Notaro]

Right.

[Rich Roll]

So, you know, advocacy shows up in all different forms. But I'm more like you. Like, I, I. You know, the, the prospect of, like, trying to change somebody's mind is not only difficult, it's sort of, you know, futile in a lot of ways. Like, and, and it's not that interesting to me. Like, I'm like you. I'm like, if you want to hear about it, I'm happy to talk to you about it, but I'm not running around chasing people.

[Tig Notaro]

I had a really fun experience recently where my aunt and uncle drove up and hung out with me and my kids for the day. And my aunt is always, like, interested in going to vegan restaurants with me and talking about it and trying it for herself. But my uncle is very, like, he's grilling and he's meat. But, I mean, he's. They accommodate when we come into town or they're up. But we went to a vegan restaurant, and at the end, he was very happy with his meal. And then afterwards, the waiter asked if anybody wanted dessert. And everyone was like, oh, no, thank you. And my aunt said. Cause she had been at that restaurant before. She goes, oh, I remember the key lime pie being so good. And my uncle was like, key lime pie? How do they make that? And I said, I think it's like, avocados and lime juice. And he was like. And I said, you should try it. And he was like, no, no, thank you. And I said, you know what? Let's just get a piece. And then if you don't want any, everyone else will eat it. So we get a piece. He is like, can't believe it. He was like, this is. And I said, like, yeah. And he was, like, smiling, laughing while he's eating. He loved it so much. And he said, I would love to try and make this. And I said, well, they have a cookbook. And I said, I'd love to get you the cookbook. And he was like, no, no, no. And I said, no, I would. If you really would love to make this, I really want to get you the cookbook. This was recent. This was maybe a week ago. They went to Arizona for their grandson's wedding. They're sending me pictures of vegan restaurants. They're going to restaurants with vegan options. They're having vegan sushi, sending me pictures, like, this was delicious. You know, my uncle's like, wow, this was. He has the cookbook.

[Rich Roll]

That's wild.

[Tig Notaro]

He is making the key lime pie and he's sending me every picture of the whole process. He was like, I took the cream from the key lime pie and I used it in my coffee this morning. And that was even delicious. And I was just telling my wife Stephanie on the way here, I was like, it so makes sense with my uncle. Cause he's like very scientific and an engineer and he builds guitars and he just likes to know how everything works. And that I think really applies with vegan food. Plant based food. That's what I find so fascinating too is what they can do with the.

[Rich Roll]

Ingredients in ways that you can't. You're like, how is this possible? You know, I don't know if you know, my wife had a plant based cheese company called Shrimu and I was like, what is this sorcery? Like, okay, it's cashews and like, it tastes like this. Like, I don't understand how you do this, you know, And I'm not saying.

[Tig Notaro]

My uncle's gonna be vegan now, but I can see he's. I can see him so interesting.

[Rich Roll]

He's doing the math in his brain. Yeah, look at you. You're just inspiring people in all different kinds of ways. All.

[Tig Notaro]

It's so exciting to me to get his little photos because, I mean, he hasn't really texted me much before, but man, is he on a texting tear with his plant based skills.

[Rich Roll]

But it was the gentle touch. It wasn't like, you need to understand. It was like, oh, we're gonna go here and like, oh, maybe try it. Or you know, like trusting people to go on their own journey with these things.

[Tig Notaro]

And we do that with our sons too. They're nine. And we tell them, you guys can eat whatever you want, you can try whatever you want. We just don't have animal products in our house. And every now and then at birthday parties or school events, they'll grab a cookie or a cupcake. But in general, their teachers and their friends. Parents are like, I'm so impressed. They really are proud that they eat the way that they do. That's cool.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that'll change.

[Tig Notaro]

Sure. But we just, we don't want to be rigid with them.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, of course. I think that's, that's smart. You just, you, yeah, this is the way we do it. And then letting them have their experience when they're outside of the house so that they have agency and, you know, all you can do is teach them good habits, and then it's up to them to figure out, you know, who they are and all that kind of thing.

[Tig Notaro]

As my stepfather said.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, exactly. You're just. See, you're walking in the shoes of very different shoes.

[Tig Notaro]

But yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Most wearables tell you what happened. How good was your sleep? Where's your recovery at? Did you hit your steps? But they don't really tell you why, let alone what to really do about it. That is, except for whoop, which gives you a complete picture of your health, from how you sleep to how you recover to how you're aging. And now. And this is huge, the new WHOOP Advanced Labs brings together over 65 key biomarkers like cholesterol, vitamin D, and cortisol, with more than 100,000 daily health data points from wearing the device. When you schedule a lab test, you're not getting a spreadsheet that you don't understand. You're getting clarity on what's really happening inside your body and concrete next steps to improve your health. Every test is reviewed by a clinician, and instead of just numbers, you get a personalized plan that connects the dots exactly which habits, from sleep patterns to specific supplements, are going to move your specific health markers for one month, free of Whoop. Go to join.whoop.com roll Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing. Without a real solution for athletes, I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run, constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them, or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike, where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription I eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion. I should say helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions, with everyday frames designed for movement. Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology, patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions.

[Tig Notaro]

And.

[Rich Roll]

And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next Level razor, sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with the code [e-mail] that's R O K A. Speaking of inspiring, I want to talk a little bit about the 2012 Largo show. You had been diagnosed with breast cancer, but it was, it was early. It was. It had like just happened, right? And you make this or had happened pretty close to that moment a few.

[Tig Notaro]

Days before the show.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, it was that close. And you decide you're gonna go on stage and talk about it. And you basically walk out on stage and say, hello, I have cancer.

[Tig Notaro]

That was a risk.

[Rich Roll]

This turns into, you know, this becomes like this legendary set that you do.

[Tig Notaro]

Basically, I got my diagnosis, which was the final blow of that four month period of time and. And I thought, I can't do that. I was just devastated. I was leveled. I couldn't believe after everything that had happened. And so I called Flanagan, the owner of Largo, and just said, I can't do my show on Friday or Saturday, whatever it is. And he said, well, don't cancel it. Let's just leave it open in case you change your mind. And I thought, this guy's nuts. Why would I. Did he not hear? And so sure enough, when it came, because he said, you could cancel the second before you go on stage, but let's just leave it open. And man, was he right. The day of the show, I was like, yeah, I want to go on stage. Because I was very much in touch with that feeling of I've seen how quickly life is slips away. And I didn't know if I'd ever be able to do standup again. So I just wanted to go for it another time. And I had talked to Ira Glass, the host of this American Life before, and I had done a segment on his show previously about running into the pop singer Taylor Dane over and over. And he said, we need a follow up. The audience loves that bit. What's your follow up? And I was like, man, I'm really sick. And he said, why don't you record your show tonight? See if Largo will record it and if there's something there, maybe, maybe we could use that.

[Rich Roll]

And typically there's no recordings at Largo. No, I mean, they definitely don't film anything, but even recording audio is like.

[Tig Notaro]

A big no, no, unless they do it. Unless it's like decided beforehand. But they're very much a lockdown kind of venue. And so I said, and this was for Ira. I said, can we just record it? Ira was thinking, maybe. I said, because I'm gonna talk about what's been going on in my life. And so they did. They recorded it. And I remember sending Ira the audio saying, I don't know, maybe there's a couple of minutes you'd want. And he was like, he was like this whole thing, he was like, I love. And I was like, I was too close to it. I was like, you like that? I didn't. I was so confused. And then also after doing the show that night, it went viral and I didn't have a clue. I was so like somebody's great, great grandmother. I was barely on social media. I didn't even know how it went.

[Rich Roll]

Viral because there was nothing to. The idea went viral.

[Tig Notaro]

The idea went viral.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. Not the content itself.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Everybody was sharing. Cause there were a lot of well known people there.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. That were.

[Rich Roll]

Spread the word about it on the.

[Tig Notaro]

Show that didn't know I had been sick or had gone through all that I was going through. And so they were a little stunned listening. And then people in the audience were tweeting about it. The performers were tweeting. And so I woke up the next day. I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends Beth and Rick and some other people and we were just like, wow, that was a crazy show. Cause I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer and all of this stuff. And then I went to bed like three in the morning. I woke up the next day and I had like 10 million voicemail, like, truly, like, what the hell? So many emails. I had book deal offers, I had all sorts of what happened. I did not know what happened. And people were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I was like, what does that mean? What went viral? And yeah, it was wild.

[Rich Roll]

And what was the consequence of that for you? Like, what did that set in motion?

[Tig Notaro]

Well, it was very weird timing because I was about to have surgery. I was about to start, you know, all of my recovery.

[Rich Roll]

It didn't cure you of cancer?

[Tig Notaro]

No, no, it didn't. It was a very interesting time because I was thrust into the spotlight when I was at my lowest and I was so uncomfortable. I remember it was a fun appearance. But I went on Conan right after I had my surgery because I wanted to tell everyone I was okay because I didn't know what to do with this attention on me, even though I was still. I mean, I had it was hard to get my T shirt on, you know, to go on to Conan, and I was still, like, holding my pants up, but I was like, can I go on there? Just. I wanted to announce to the world, don't worry about me. I'm okay. And I was, to some degree. But I was also in a lot of physical and emotional pain still.

[Rich Roll]

But part of why the performance was so impactful was that you were saying, I'm not okay. You know, in this experience of powerlessness and confusion and not knowing what was going to happen, it was a way of you exercising agency over it. Like, I get to decide what this means to me and taking this creative and professional risk to be so open about what was happening in a way where you were taking ownership of it. That's, like, at odds with going on Conan and trying to pretend like everything is fine, right?

[Tig Notaro]

Everything was at odds.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

I was really. My head was spinning. I was trying to keep working in ways. I was trying to take care of my body. I was trying to deal with the attention that was on me, and I just was spinning for quite a while, even when I thought I was okay, even. It just was a long process of getting through that. It was any moment that I thought I was doing better or breaking through the confusion because, again, my mother was gone. That's. It was massive. And losing my relationship and all of that. I had great friends, and the public embraced me in such. I was so lucky. But it took me a long time to find my footing again.

[Rich Roll]

Looking back on that, what was it about what you said on stage that was so impactful to the audience? Like, why did it catch fire? Like, do you have an explanation or a sense of that?

[Tig Notaro]

I think it was partly that people are so interested in, you know, reality shows and social media, where you get a peek into people's lives and this was happening real time. You know, this wasn't like a. I had worked out over and over. It was really me walking up there going, essentially asking for help from the.

[Rich Roll]

Audience, not some perfected act that you had been working on. You just got up there and laid it all out.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, No, I really. And I said it in my documentary that I knew there was. This was another risk, like I said, to go on stage and share this. I didn't know if it was gonna be funny, and I didn't know if I was gonna bomb and then just disappear into the darkness and die. And people would be like, wow, I saw her last show. That was awkward. That was weird. I also think people there's so much in that set that people can relate to. Everybody's. Most people have lost a relationship and everyone's been affected by cancer. The loss of a parent and it's. Yeah, it was voyeuristic, I think, too, for people like, whoa, you know, it was raw.

[Rich Roll]

What is it about Largo that makes that place so special?

[Tig Notaro]

I wish I knew. It is so special.

[Rich Roll]

It's pretty legendary. I mean, I remember before I even moved to Los Angeles, there would just be these stories about John Bryan and Amy Mann and Elliot Smith and like. Like these legends. But what makes it so cool is the casual vibe to it. It's kind of this cool kids club. And it was shocking to me when I moved to Los Angeles that for a lot of the shows, it's not that hard to get tickets. You can go all the time and there's people that have season tickets, basically, and they just go to everything. And it is this community hub where artists have the permission to get up on stage kind of half cocked. Like, the expectation isn't that you're getting some polished thing. It's generally people who are working on stuff or you're seeing a more unvarnished, experimental version of what this person does.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah. There's so many performers that are not regulars there that will pop in on a show and they're like, I'm so intimidated. Like, this is larga. And it's, you know, you can't overthink it because the audience is there, they're open, they're ready to go. They want to see whatever you got. And I do think that if you're showing up with your polished show.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that's not gonna go over so well. They're not the place for that. Right?

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. But, you know, they want a good.

[Rich Roll]

Show and it's retained its coolness over the years, which is rare. Usually these things kind of like come and go. They're not able to, like, hold on to that sensibility.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean. Yeah, especially in Los Angeles. It's like I was telling my therapist the other day that there's so many things in this city where you go and look, I love and appreciate Los Angeles, but there is a feeling of, like, is this real? Like, are you my friend? Are you really my friend? Or do I, like, really? Am I really. Is this. When I was walking down the street in my neighborhood the other day, it kind of amused me in a sad way that, like, if somebody took down the entire street, I was walking on, like, while I was walking, and I found out it was just a set. It wasn't even. I'd be like, oh, right. That wasn't even real. Like, my neighborhood isn't even real. This is what is real. And people move from like, oh, this is the cool restaurant. Or, oh, I'm excited about our friendship. Or, I want you on this show. And then it'll change so fast. And you're like, wait, I thought we were friends. Or I thought this was. This restaurant is delicious. Or this coffee shop. Nope, not anymore. But, yeah. Largo. Steady Eddie.

[Rich Roll]

Steady. I know. That's what's. I mean, it's what's cool, but it's also confusing. It's so anachronistic with this city.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

You have no explanation as to why, though?

[Tig Notaro]

No. I think Flanagan, the owner, he really. He takes it very seriously, like, what comes in. It's kind of like what you're saying about the algorithm. There's no algorithm.

[Rich Roll]

He's the kingmaker. He gets to decide.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

He curates.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. The way he curates the lineup. He seems to know what he's doing, and he doesn't care. Like, when people show up and they're like, I'm so and so. Like, I had a manager once, embarrassingly, that he had recently signed me, and he was late to my show, and he was, like, causing this big. And, like, do you know who I am? And I'm Tig's manager. I was so embarrassed. Cause I'm like, this is not. This is not the vibe. And first of all, for me or this venue. And I remember Flanagan being like, this guy is a tool. You know, he doesn't care how famous you are, who you are. He wants a focused audience and a good show on stage. And that is really the only. The only focus.

[Rich Roll]

How long did you stay with that manager?

[Tig Notaro]

Um, gosh, maybe a year. And he was, like, the first really powerful person that. That I kind of got the attention of. It was more. His wife was a fan. That was that entryway. She was, like, a big fan and wanted her husband to sign me, and he did, and, you know, whatever. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

You mentioned therapy. I saw the trailer for the group therapy documentary. I haven't watched it yet. Is it up yet? I don't think it's. Is it. Is it. It's already available.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. I don't know what. I don't know where it is. Maybe it's Amazon or something.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know what's going on with that documentary and what is going on with mental health more broadly. Like, within the comedy community, like, do you have to have some kind of mental health situation going on to be an effective comic?

[Tig Notaro]

See, I don't believe that.

[Rich Roll]

Like, you seem pretty balanced and grounded.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, I've been working at that. Like I said, I wasn't, and I don't know who I was before 2012, but I've never believed that you have to be miserable or struggling to be funny.

[Rich Roll]

I think you have depressed or neurotic. No, like, all of those tropes.

[Tig Notaro]

I really don't. I think that when people like to put that on comedians or musicians or artists or whatever, I really. All I can think about is, everybody's dealing with that stuff. Everybody's got cuckoo parents or anxiety or depression. We're the ones with the microphone. And so it's easy to blame us. Like, oh, they're going through a lot, and they're. You know, people can look at artists and just kind of be like, wow, they're miserable. They're depressed.

[Rich Roll]

They're struggling, wearing it on their sleeve.

[Tig Notaro]

Right, right. Cause if you go next door or you talk to your mail carrier or the pilot of your plane, you're gonna find cancer, alcoholism, depression. It's everywhere. We just have the microphone. And I feel like it's not that you have to be miserable and depressed. It's you have to be living a real life, I think, in order to get material. And I'm not, like, living a real life to get material. But you have to be in the world. You have to be in the world. But I just. I don't believe that you have to be a miserable person.

[Rich Roll]

What is your writing process? How do you know when something is funny?

[Tig Notaro]

I think it's just an extra sense. It's funny. Going to dinners or parties where it's not entertainment or comedy people. And they're like, a comedian's here. Oh, I better watch what I'm saying. Oh, I'm gonna end up in. And I'm like, no, you're not. Like, chances are you're not gonna end up in my set. It's so.

[Rich Roll]

Because you're not that interesting and you're not that funny.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, it's not even that. It's just. It's so rare for me. I mean, maybe. And there probably are comedians that everything strikes them or they are looking for bits, But I'm just hanging out with people, and if something happens, that extra sense, I'm like, oh, that could be. That's funny. You know, and it's never necessarily the obvious thing, and I'll just Make a little note on a napkin and revisit it. But I don't.

[Rich Roll]

A napkin. That's your process. A napkin. Like, I had Birbiglia in here, and he, like, brought a notebook, and it's sitting here, and he's like, oh, I don't go anywhere without this. You know, he's like, all. He went to Georgetown.

[Tig Notaro]

You know, I've got a seventh grade education, so I've got a paper napkin. Birbiglia's got. You know, he's the best man. He's like, I took him to dinner one night because I was like, you blow my mind. How are you this prolific? And I really. I'm like, tell me everything. And he continues to just churn out.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, he's pretty great.

[Tig Notaro]

He really is. But, yeah, I don't sit down. And I always say, if, not if. But when I die, you're not gonna find the lost writings of Tig Notaro.

[Rich Roll]

The papers. The dirty papers from library. The papers of Tig Notaro.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. And when I'm in a bunch of.

[Rich Roll]

Napkins, like, what are you assembling these napkins? Like, how does it find its way from the napkin onto a page, onto, you know, some kind of set that gets worked on?

[Tig Notaro]

I wish I knew, Rich. I don't know.

[Rich Roll]

You don't know? There's no method.

[Tig Notaro]

No. Sometimes I find a napkin and I'm like, tube sock. What was that about? And I'll be like, stephanie, did I say something about a tube sock? And she's like, I have no idea. I'm like, wow, okay. But I also have that faith that if something is really funny, it's gonna. It'll come back up.

[Rich Roll]

It sticks around.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, It'll pop back up. Because whatever it was about that tube sock will. It'll happen again. But, yeah, I'll just try different things out. And if it sticks and I remember it, then it feels worth continuing to work on.

[Rich Roll]

And are you somebody who is regimented? Like, okay, you know, this is the time of day where I sit down and wear, like, how does that work?

[Tig Notaro]

I do all my writing, which is.

[Rich Roll]

Like, let's just dispel that illusion right now. There is no.

[Tig Notaro]

This is.

[Rich Roll]

You know, this is. I think it's a violence on people. We're all walking around trying to, like, be balanced. Nobody's balanced.

[Tig Notaro]

No, no. But I'll tell you what. I have way more balance. That's what I'm saying is, like, I.

[Rich Roll]

Don'T think it's balance. It's groundedness and presence in what you're doing and making sure that you're. Because you're never going to be able to show up and have all of these things in proper order every single day, especially when you have kids and you're married and.

[Tig Notaro]

No.

[Rich Roll]

My son got this dedicated professional life. Yeah. So we hold ourselves to that standard, and then we feel bad about ourselves. Where I think the solution is really like, okay, well, this is what I'm doing right now, and I can't control the external world, and I'm just gonna be focused on this and okay. With the fact that, you know, these other things are not getting attended to right now for sure.

[Tig Notaro]

But all of the things that I can control of, like, you know, whether it's what I'm eating or how much work, how much time I'm spending away from home working, I do have control over that. And, you know, my cancer could return.

[Rich Roll]

But you don't have control over that.

[Tig Notaro]

I don't. But what I do have control over is investing the time and energy into. I exercise every day. I believe I'm eating a healthy diet. Certainly throw some cupcakes and cookies in there. But I'm sure there's no peak balance like you're saying. But. But the place that I've gotten to now, I would say I'm happier and more fulfilled than ever on a very genuine, real level and in a present way.

[Rich Roll]

So the writing process doesn't exist. I go on stage with a napkin and just freewheeling it.

[Tig Notaro]

Come on. Yeah. Truly. I write everything on stage. I will write a word or a phrase to trigger my memory. But look, your producer, that's how I ended up here. He's seen me scramble around on stage.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, but when you're doing a special or, you know, like a full hour or something like that, obviously you've been working on this for a long time. It's evolved for sure. And you're just sort of memorizing it as you go, and you just have keywords to trigger the next song.

[Tig Notaro]

But by that point, when I'm doing a special, I know what has stuck and what works. And then I just naturally carry that to the special. But, you know, when I'm touring and I have my napkins and I'm. Man, when I'm in a hotel room and I finished a set and I throw a napkin away, I really try and, like, dispose of it so the housekeeper doesn't come across it and think I'm a psychopath. Because it's like, the napkin is. Yeah. Like, tube sock, breast cancer. You know, kitty litter. It's like, what was that day gonna be like for this person? Or what was that day?

[Rich Roll]

But is there another napkin lying around somewhere? Like, if you throw it out, then how are you gonna remember next time?

[Tig Notaro]

Because I have.

[Rich Roll]

It's all chambered up here.

[Tig Notaro]

No, I. When I have the idea, the word, the phrase, and I write it on a napkin, I'll transfer that to a bigger napkin.

[Rich Roll]

There's no computers involved.

[Tig Notaro]

No, there is a computer involved. That I move a word or phrase to a new material document. But it's not. I don't have all of the wording written out. I just have tube sock, breast cancer, kitty litter. That's not really my material, but anymore. So, yeah, it'll go to that document. And then I'll look through the document and I'll think, oh, maybe I'll throw out this thing or I'll try that, or I don't feel like this has legs. But maybe if I scramble around on stage with it for a little bit, I'll find something and then those will go to like a little piece of paper and. And then I'll find that these things worked and this didn't. And it's just a whole moving around process to see. But once I'm. Yeah, once I'm taping my special.

[Rich Roll]

You're locked in.

[Tig Notaro]

At that point, I'm totally locked in.

[Rich Roll]

I think what's so unique about standup as an art form is that you can't, you know, the artist can't create without the feedback from the audience. Like, that gestation process is a. Like a communal experience. Like, you can't. Like a painter goes away and paints, and here's my painting or, you know, whatever. Somebody writes a song, same thing. But you need the audience in order to hone the material and craft it. There's no other way around that.

[Tig Notaro]

Unless you're Maria Bamford. Do you know Maria? Yeah, she's one of my favorites.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, I don't know her personally. I know who she is.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, she does sessions where.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, there's a lot of people who are like, she's the funniest person on planet Earth.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, she is. She's just. She's a freak of nature. I mean, seeing Maria kill or bomb is a delight.

[Rich Roll]

Because she doesn't matter. Because if she bombs is probably own.

[Tig Notaro]

Form of entertainment for me. Yeah. I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I feel bad for the audience. Cause if they're not getting it, and it's not like I see Maria Bomb all the time. But she is somebody that will sit. This is classic Maria. There's nobody else like her walking this planet. She will come up with her new hour, and she'll invite a random fan from the Internet to sit down with her at a coffee shop, and she'll just tell them her hour.

[Rich Roll]

She's like, I should probably run this by one person before I get up on stage.

[Tig Notaro]

Starbucks. I'm like, I cannot imagine in a million years going to Starbucks. No. But, yeah, the confidence. Is it even confidence?

[Rich Roll]

I mean, to know, like, this is what it is. I'm gonna go up and do this. I don't need to workshop it a hundred times.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, she workshops it. But when she's like, I gotta really sit down and see if what I've workshopped is at its peak level. Let me sit down with Carol from the Valley and see what she thinks over a bran muffin.

[Rich Roll]

There's something about that dynamic that I think is instructive as a tool for life. Like, just. You have to engage with other people and be vulnerable and share something, and they're gonna, you know, be honest with you about what they think, and then you have to internalize that. Which, when you kind of think about culture right now and the extent to which we're divided and increasingly unable to talk to each other, like, I feel like this is an important life skill. And it's one of the reasons why I like Mike Birbiglia's podcast so much. You know, it's called Working it out, and it's two artists sitting across from each other, like, sharing their work and giving honest feedback about where they think each other is at with it. And it's practicing this process of what it's like to give people constructive criticism and see somebody receive that and not be defensive, but actually excited by, oh, my God, we can make this better. You know, that's a good idea. And I think there's something about that that we can all benefit from in the way we interact with just, you know, average people in our lives, 1 million percent.

[Tig Notaro]

It's like. I think it's. I love surrounding myself with people that are smarter than me, that have different ideas and just, I mean, not too different.

[Rich Roll]

Let's be clear.

[Tig Notaro]

Let's be really clear.

[Rich Roll]

Set the stage.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, I just mean, like, creatively, I'm so curious, and my wife and I work so closely together, and we give each other notes, and she's about the only person that I'm interested in. Like, when. Mainly because she's always so Right on. And her taste is so good. And she'll be like, oh, what if you did this? Or maybe drop that. And look, she's not writing my material. I mean, she has, like, when I do, when I host award shows, and she knows my voice very well, but with just my standup. I'm so interested in what she has to say or just collaborating. When I had my. I had a show, one Mississippi, and it was so fun to sit in a writer's room and challenge each other with our different life experiences and perspectives that I believe ultimately made that show so much better than if it was just me going, no, this is. I mean, it wasn't. It was loosely based on my life story. And what was fun was having people take these topics and the writers add their experience in each little area that. It was really fun. And it's a process of letting go and being open to hearing about edits or hearing about additions to stories or. I love collaborating. I really do.

[Rich Roll]

Have you ever had the experience of doing that with Pyroglass?

[Tig Notaro]

Doing what?

[Rich Roll]

Like, having him give you feedback on your material? Cause I've heard him do it with Mike on his podcast. And I was like, wow. Like, that guy has laser vision.

[Tig Notaro]

And he was right on.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, he was helping Mike with something. I mean, it's kind of a legendary podcast episode where you realize, like, oh, this guy is, like, you know, dialed in.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, he. Well, first of all, he's who, as I said, encouraged me to record my show. And I thought he was as crazy as Flanagan was for telling me to keep the show open in case I wanted to do it. I thought they were both nuts.

[Rich Roll]

And his instinct was exactly correct.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. And I was borderline offended at the time. Cause I was so scared and in a vulnerable place. I was like, these guys just want me to record my material and do my show. And I'm, like, so sad and in pain. But, yeah, Ira was like, this could be such an incredible show where you. Whatever he was saying that I didn't necessarily trust him. I didn't necessarily trust Flanagan. And then when I came through the other side, I was like, what was my problem? But in a reverse story, Ira challenged me in a way where he told me he was wrong. And that was a fun moment for me to have Ira say, you were right.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, there was something that you disagreed about.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, yeah, he. When I was in New York, he came to see me live and to see my Taylor Dane story. Cause he had heard about it, and he was like, oh, maybe we could use that on this American life. And so he came and saw it, and he was like, you know, I really enjoy that story. He said, but I don't think it's gonna work for this American life because you have so many moments you act out and your face expressions. He said, I feel like the audience needs to see that to really understand. And I said, I think you're wrong. And he was like, really? He said, why is that? And I said, because when I was a kid and I was listening to Steve Martin or Paula poundstone or any of Richard Pryor, any of these comedians, my brain. I wasn't seeing them. I was listening to their albums and I didn't. I was never lost. And I'm sure they were acting things out and making face expressions. But your brain creates.

[Rich Roll]

Fills in the gaps. Yeah. It allows your imagination.

[Tig Notaro]

Every gap.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

And so. And he teases me now that I told him how radio works.

[Rich Roll]

That's really funny.

[Tig Notaro]

But I ended up doing that story. He was like, you're right. He said, let's give it a try. And so that's.

[Rich Roll]

And you did it on stage live. I did it for him for that show.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. They did a live performance that was beamed around into different movie theaters. So you could listen to the audio or you could, I don't know, tune it. I don't even remember how they did it, but you could watch it. Oh, you just went to. How did it happen? You went to movie theaters or.

[Rich Roll]

I don't remember.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, it's on YouTube right now. You can just watch it. It's epic. You know, it's pretty great story.

[Tig Notaro]

And it's true.

[Rich Roll]

Do you still continue to run into her? Is she still around?

[Tig Notaro]

I have not.

[Rich Roll]

My wife ran into her once.

[Tig Notaro]

See, she is. It's so easy to trip over Taylor Dane. And that was. The other thing is people say. People would tell me she was a big pop star in the 80s. She was nobody in early 90s. And people don't know who she is anymore, which isn't true. You know her songs and, you know. But yeah, she's not like in the forefront of pop music right now, but she's a huge part.

[Rich Roll]

Right. If you're in our general age group, like, you definitely know who she is. Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

Even if you don't know the name, you know the songs. And so my point is, you don't have to know who Taylor Dane is. People don't know my mother. People don't know my wife or kids. But I still. That's my job is to Set up who this person is and then it.

[Rich Roll]

Just becomes an avatar. Oh, this is a well known person from a certain period of time. And like just the fact that you're perpetually running into her and like replaying out this same, you know, dynamic with her time and time again, like, that's it. You don't need to. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[Tig Notaro]

Yes. It just became so ridiculous. All of the run ins and all of the different responses from her. But after I haven't run into her since I told that story. It was like you purged yourself a bit.

[Rich Roll]

Like spiritually, this is complete. But did you know, you knew that she was gonna come out on stage after you tell the story and perform? Or was that a surprise?

[Tig Notaro]

What would you like to know?

[Rich Roll]

You're not gonna say?

[Tig Notaro]

No, I'm not gonna say.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I mean, the interaction, like your energy around her when she comes out is. I mean, you kind of do have to see that part.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah. Well, she. It's funny because when I. I didn't know I had cancer yet. Ira and I had been planning this performance for a while and I truly told him, like, I don't even know if I'm gonna be alive. Like, I was really struggling with C. Diff still. And again, didn't know I had. It was so crazy because I was lying in the hospital dealing with C. Diff for so long. And I remember the doctor saying, like, I'm so confused. Most people that have this are very young or very old or very sickly. And he was like, you're not any of those things. Meanwhile, we didn't know I had invasive cancer.

[Rich Roll]

So essentially your immune system was so compromised for reasons you didn't know why yet. And that was contributing to the.

[Tig Notaro]

Or possibly.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, like had some relationship with the C. Diff.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, I was really. I was struggling. And so when Ira was like, you know, the show is coming and we've been planning to do it and I'm heading towards it, but I was like, I might be a skeleton or dead by the time. Cause I was losing half a pound a day. I was really, really having a hard time. But I had met with a nutritionist who thankfully helped me turn that around, along with the help of my doctors and everything. But I really did not think I would be there. And then I was diagnosed after that performance and Taylor Dayne reached out to me hearing that I had cancer. And she just. It was so funny and so nice because she said, I want you to know if you ever need anything, call me at Any time. And after that conversation, it made me laugh thinking, what if I really did follow up on that and I reached out to Taylor Dane all the time and I was like, hey, it's Tig. I can't sleep. Hey, it's Tig. I'm not feeling well. Like, would she really be there for me?

[Rich Roll]

Right.

[Tig Notaro]

But yeah, so she was. And what I loved about her was, you know, so many people deny certain behaviors or. I didn't do that. No. When I met her and she heard the different run ins that we had. Cause she didn't. I wasn't known when I was having these run ins with her. Cause people were like, I'm sure she knew who you. And I was like, no, this was over years of me being just like an up and coming comedian. But when I met her and she heard that story, all of those stories of running into her, she was like, yeah, that sounds like me. Yeah, I probably had a couple of drinks. Yeah, that and I really appreciated that. She didn't deny.

[Rich Roll]

Uh huh. She wasn't trying to finesse you, but she wasn't recalling the experiences either.

[Tig Notaro]

No, I don't think it was anything interesting or extraordinary in her life. She was just having lunch or she was just someplace and you know, she's.

[Rich Roll]

Like, yeah, I was probably bitchy.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, she just was like, yeah, I.

[Rich Roll]

Don'T know, dismissive or.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, she was just like, yeah, that sounds about right. And I was like, oh, I like that.

[Rich Roll]

You know, it seems like that show where you performed that, at least based on watching the documentary, like that was like an anchor, like your health is ailing, but like you needed that like as a North Star to work towards. Like it was like this lifeline, like you were gonna make it happen to just prove to yourself that you were still vital.

[Tig Notaro]

Mm. Yeah, I, I really wanted to be there. I really wanted to do that show. Cause Ira and I had been talking about it and working on it for so long and I mean, I wasn't the only performer, but yeah, it was a driving force for me.

[Rich Roll]

It seems like comedy, the standup comedy world, comedians in general, like this is, you know, it's reached a level of like cultural saturation and awareness. Like it's. You've been doing this for a long time. You know, anybody who shows up at any of these clubs, you've known these people forever, right? And it seems like we're in a moment where. And maybe it's just my bubble that I'm in, but I don't think so. I think like there's an interest in this world that is. Kind of feels like it's at a high peak right now. Is that true? Do you think that. Yeah, I just think people are talking about comedians. There's so many specials. These specials are very popular. Like, comedy is in a good place, I think, in terms of how many people are, you know, consuming it and interested in it. You know, there's other stuff going on. There's the intersection of politics into the comedy podcast landscape and all of that. That complicates it, I think, but really complicates it. Yeah, I mean, it's. You know, it's weird that, like, now everyone is super interested in what comedians think about politicians, but, you know, we don't. I don't know how deep we want to go into that. But I'm just saying, from your perspective of being, like, inside this world and someone who has been inside of it for so long, like, seems like it's a good time to be a comedian.

[Tig Notaro]

I guess, in ways. Yeah, it is. Like, as far as. Yeah. As you said, people finding an interest and turning out for it. But on the inside of it all, there is such a. There are many fractures that aren't.

[Rich Roll]

It doesn't feel like a united community in the way that it used to.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. It feels very politically and socially divided in a way that I don't really recognize. But I'm also. I'm a little removed from it because I'm not in the scene like I used to be. I was always confused by comedians. It would be like, yeah, I'd just rather be home with my family. I'd be like, that's weird, but that's how I feel.

[Rich Roll]

Well, you chose the wrong path, like, the wrong career for that.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, it just didn't make sense. Like, why would you not want to be in this comedy club all night sitting, doing sets or sitting at the bar talking to some, like, you know, smelly bearded guy that, you know, you just did a set with, like. And look, I love. I have so many smelly, bearded. There's no judgment of the different creatures in comedy. I'm one myself. But I just. The division is. It's just not fun and it's. But also I feel like I'm just not in it because I do go out and do my set. I'm a comedian that walks in the back door moments before I walk on the stage. I don't.

[Rich Roll]

And then you just do your thing and you're back out the door.

[Tig Notaro]

I usually do a seven o' clock show, so I can be in my house or my hotel room by 8:30 so I can get good sleep, so I can talk to Stephanie on the phone or in person or put my kids to bed. That has become my focus. So I know what's going on in the standup world to some degree. But I do feel like a little bit of an outsider in the way that I'm just not deeply in the mix anymore. And as you know, in the level of outsiderness that I am, it just. It doesn't really look that fun or appealing. But I don't know. I don't know if it's my age or my family or my. I don't know what it is, but I feel a little removed. But I just go in and do my set, head home.

[Rich Roll]

But this is still the workmanship. Like, this is an essential aspect of being able to do what you do. You gotta be able to, you know, go to these places, get up on stage, work your stuff out. But there's like a whole flywheel, like, just looking at your career from, like, a professional or an entrepreneurship perspective. It's like you have the standup, you have the touring, you have the specials, you have the podcast. Then there's documentaries. I wanna talk about the upcoming documentary. Like, there's a lot, you know, like, it's now, like, really, it's like you're running, you know, like a. Like a. You have to run, like, an enterprise to keep all of this going, I'm sure. You know, like, it's. There's a lot of moving pieces, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's not just one thing like, oh, I'm a standup comic and I go to the club and do my deal.

[Tig Notaro]

Mm. Yeah. It's a much bigger world. And I remember years ago, kind of in my first few years, I remember Sarah Silverman saying to me, you know, but a lot of comedians get caught in just doing standup, and then they don't try other things out and you might enjoy something else. And so I thought, oh, that's interesting. Cause, yeah, I never thought, like, oh, I'm gonna act or direct or produce. I thought that was for somebody else.

[Rich Roll]

But there was a thing in the earlier days of like, oh, you, like, you do your standup, and then, you know, one day you'll go on Conan or one of these shows, and a lot of people will see you, and then, you know, pilot season will come and hopefully you can get on a sitcom. Like, that was sort of the path, right, for a lot of people.

[Tig Notaro]

It Was. But I didn't even. I wasn't even aware of that. I didn't think about it because I was so in. It never dawned on me that even though I knew these sitcom actors were standups, I just didn't think about. Oh, they. I was just in like Texas or Colorado and. But I was following standup. I wasn't really following Brett Butler's standup or.

[Rich Roll]

Right. Well, if there was a division back then, it was like the standup standup people who are doing it for the art of standup and the people who were using it as a launch pad to get on a TV show.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, yeah, when I say Brett Butler standup, I was following Brett Butler's standup. But I didn't connect that. Oh, these people, these standups got sitcoms, that they're the star. I just didn't think about it. And I remember when I first moved to LA and I was doing standup and people would say, you know, oh, and then what do you. Then what do you ultimately want? And I was like, what do you mean? Because even doing an open mic, I thought I had made it. I was like, I can't even believe I'm doing three minutes of standup. It just blew my mind. And yeah, I was asked all the time, then what? But then what? I was like, then I want to get better. And then. But then what? Then I. Well, then I want to do a bigger venue. But then. But what's. And I was like, what are you asking me? I was so confused. And that's what they were looking for, was for me to say, oh, then I want my own sitcom. Then I want to have this. And I just. I didn't have that interest. I didn't even move to LA to do stand up. I moved to LA cause my childhood best friends that we've been close and we've moved everywhere where they were going to college and following their dreams, and I was a dropout failure, just going wherever they went. And then they wanted to move to LA to produce TV and film. And I was like, I'll go with you. But then I saw the standup opportunity and then I tried it out and now I'm here 30 years later.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, there's a lot in that. I mean, first of all, what was the initial impetus to look at that and be like, oh, I want to try that?

[Tig Notaro]

Well, I had always been obsessed with standup. And it's really funny because most people say, do not move to LA or New York until you're ready as a Comedian And I had such a different experience of ending up in Los Angeles that I would actually say it's the opposite. Go to LA and New York because there's so much opportunity that you can fly under the radar forever doing open mics at coffee shops and laundromats and bars. And it's not like there's agents, talent scouts at the laundromat, but there are.

[Rich Roll]

A lot of talented people around you who you can learn from for sure.

[Tig Notaro]

And there's a lot of. I think there's more opportunity for people to get on stage and try out new material in smaller towns and other cities. But at the time when I started, I was living, I had just moved from Colorado to Los Angeles and in Denver, there weren't open mics in all of these random places. There was the main club and they had an open mic and if you did well, they would ask you back. And to me, that was more intimidating than flying under the radar in Los Angeles. And so, yeah, I just. As soon as I moved to LA with my friends who were moving here to be producers, I opened the LA Weekly and I was like, oh my gosh, there's standup everywhere. And so I went and watched for a couple of weeks and like, everybody who's interested in stand up, I thought I could do this. And so, yeah, here I am.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, the second piece of what you shared about not having, like, this driving vision of where you were headed, like, just like, I'm here to, like, be good at this and see if I can get better. There's this tension between your career or whatever creative thing that you're trying to master is going to lead you in the best direction by just focusing on the quality of what you're doing and being open to opportunities that come. Because ultimately, if the thing is good, like, all of that will come. And on the other side of that, like, having a sense of, like, oh, well, I'm here and here's where I want to head. In order to get there, I have to do all of these things. Like, I think you kind of need both of those. But there is something beautiful about, like, just focusing on what you can control and then being available for whatever the universe decides to put in your path.

[Tig Notaro]

I've felt very open and again, I'm thankful that that Sarah kind of mentioned try other things out. And I have, and I've really enjoyed finding out what I don't wanna do. That's been such a pleasure to check things out and be like, oh, my God, no, thank you.

[Rich Roll]

What was one of those?

[Tig Notaro]

I think directing. I mean, I've enjoyed. I've directed standup specials, comedy specials, my own and others. And that's a process that is manageable. My wife and I. I mean, I've directed short films, and I directed an episode of my TV show. And my wife and I co directed a movie called Am I okay? Starring Dakota Johnson. And. And I'm so glad I have that experience. But, man, when you are the director of a massive production like that, I was sitting there and somebody would come up and be like, hi, Tig. Sorry to bother you. Do you want the glasses here or here? And I'm like, I can barely give a shit. You know, Whereas Stephanie is like a.

[Rich Roll]

Thousand times a day of that.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, every department. Every department is coming and asking every question. Whereas Stephanie, who is a director through and through, she's like, oh, the glasses should be here. Because the character, you know, she has a whole. There's so many. And I'm like.

[Rich Roll]

You take it from here.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, like, I'm in such a basic way, interested in. And she is, too. But she's also passionate about should it be a pink or red pen that's on the table in this scene? And she can tell you why. And it's such a pleasure to watch. And it's also a pleasure to realize I don't need to do this again.

[Rich Roll]

You know, does it work that way in the home?

[Tig Notaro]

What do you mean?

[Rich Roll]

She knows exactly where the pen should go?

[Tig Notaro]

She does. And I have to say, I mean, she's often right where that pen should go. And she's 15 years younger than me, and I'm just floored by her awareness and her taste and her. She's just beyond her years. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that she is my spouse.

[Rich Roll]

Beautiful documentaries. Producing documentaries is something you say yes to, though. So talk about the upcoming documentary about the poet Andrea Gibson.

[Tig Notaro]

It's called Come See Me in the Good Light, and it comes out on Apple TV November 14th. It is, as I said, I've been in this business for almost 30 years. And I would say this is the thing I'm most proud of. And Andrea I met in Colorado 25 years ago, something like that. And I was not. And I have never been in the poetry world. When I met Andrea, when Andrea was in this group called Vox Feminista, which was a social activist, political activist group in Boulder that was just preaching to the choir. But it was fun to go to these shows because it was a poet and comedian and musician Just talking about all different sorts of issues. But when I met Andrea backstage, I was like, somebody said, oh, this is Andrea Gibson. Andrea's a poet. And I was like, a poet. You know, Andrea looked so familiar to me, like from the gay community to the music world or even comedy, you know, just cool and tattoos. And I just. I was like, poet, interesting. And then Andrea went on stage, and I was like, my mind was blown. The depths that this person went to, to the lightness and humor, I was truly floored. And anyway, Andrea was diagnosed with ovarian cancer a few years ago that they beat and it came back, and they beat and it came back. And I was on the phone with our mutual friend Steph Willen, who is a remarkable human being. And we were trying to figure out how to get Andrea's podcast edited and produced. And all the while, I mean, Andrea had such an incredible group of supportive friends that were trying to help Andrea through this tough time in life. And, like, boots on the ground in Boulder with doctor's appointments and trying to get Andrea's will in place and just everything. Remarkable friends that loved Andrea so much. But Steph and I were on the phone again, talking about Andrea's podcast, and Steph said, you know, I feel like Andrea's life would make a really great documentary. And it was like, hold the phone moment. I could see everything, just a clear path. And I'm not somebody. And I guess I wasn't somebody before Andrea passed away who leaned in the woo woo world. And I can't say I fully am, but this has really tested me, because when I say I saw this movie, as soon as Steph suggested this, I was like, this is going to be incredible. This is going to Sundance. This is going to.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, just came into you fully, fully formed, like a flash of clarity.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, it. So honestly, I was like this. Yes, yes, yes. And I reached out to five different people who were in the documentary space, and from financiers to directors to producers, and I just said, hey, I have this old scrappy poet pal who is Non Binary Stage 4 Ovarian cancer in the mountains of Colorado. If you do the slightest deep dive or look at these clips, you're either in or you're out. And. And everyone, it was like, oh, interesting, let me think about this. Or, oh, I know who Andrea is. Or, oh, I'm not familiar. And the filmmakers who did the Pamela Anderson documentary, actually the director Ryan happened to be at my Largo performance. In a weird, bizarre twist of life, he was there, not familiar. With me just was like, oh, I heard she's funny. I come out and I'm like, I have cancer. But anyway, days later, they were on a flight to Colorado. They got it, and they flew out there and started filming. And he said, look, we can't go to streamers or networks or studios. This is not a sparkly Hollywood project. We have to raise the money independently and make the most beautiful film we can make. And we did. We made a beautiful film. And Andrea didn't think that they were gonna see the film, but Ryan was said, look, kind of behind Andrea. And Andrea's wife, Meg Fowley, who is also an incredible poet and human being. He said, we don't need our hero to die. We can wrap up this movie. Andrea can see it. We can submit it to Sundance and other festivals without them knowing and see if we get in. So there's no disappointment. And I've had, I don't know, four or five projects at Sundance, and I have never gotten the feedback that it got in unanimously. And this film got in, I think it was 15 people jurors, and it got in unanimously. And we went out for the premiere, and Andrea and Meg came out. We got an Airbnb. We just had a. We called it Snuggle Down. We just sat by the fire, had tea, spent time. Andrea was definitely struggling getting up and down stairs, but went to the premiere. The premiere was just magical. You could feel in the room. Everyone felt it so deeply. And there's so many funny parts. Andrea was one of the funniest people. That was. The fun part was everything was so precious to Andrea, but then nothing was too precious. And you could really have a deep laugh about really anything with Andrea. And those funny moments, the devastating moments hit so perfectly in that room. And normally when I went to Sundance, it was always. You had to go to do all this press and go to all these important events and other people's screenings. But because we had Andrea there and just limited time that everyone was very aware of, we just spent so much of the time that weekend in our Airbnb and did very targeted appearances at the HBO party and the talk to all the right people, and then we'd get in the car, go back to Snuggle Down. And when I went back to Toronto to film Starfleet Academy a couple of days later, I got all this. My phone, like, can you get on a call? We need to talk. Like, are you available? And I called Stephanie. I was like, oh, my God, I think something bad, like, with Andrea. And she was like, you just have to call. So I call Meg and Andrea. I'm like. Cause not just them. It was the filmmakers. Everybody was calling. And I was like. I was so emotional. What is it? We won. We won Sundance. I was like, what? My emotion had to swing so far the other way. But we had no gauge of how our film was doing. Cause we weren't submerged in the Sundance world. And I was like, what? Like, I needed a second to process. And Ryan, the director, he said, you have to understand. He was like, films like ours don't win. This is even just not documentaries. It's also scripted. It's out of all of the.

[Rich Roll]

All the movies.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, it gives me chills right now. It was so. I knew it was a great film, but I thought we were going to be like, a sleeper indie film, you know, that. That went to Sundance.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were there for the premiere. I mean, Sundance is two weeks. It goes over two weekends. Right. So you weren't there the whole time. You were there for the premiere screening, and then you had to get back to work.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, we spent days a weekend there.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. Yeah. So there was a whole other week or whatever. And then the fall. Then they have the award ceremony. Yeah. So, yeah. Like, Sundance was a memory at that point.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

And you're thinking, this news can only be bad. How long after that did they pass away?

[Tig Notaro]

Sundance was January, and Andrea. I guess it was six months later. Andrea died July 14th.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Well, now I'm very enthusiastic to see the film. I wasn't familiar with them, but.

[Tig Notaro]

But.

[Rich Roll]

When they passed away, the outpouring of support online was unbelievable, and I felt like I should know who this person is. There were so many people expressing their stories and experiences with Andrea. And I was like, well, obviously, this person obviously meant a lot to a lot of people and artistically stood for something very powerful.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. Yes. You know, you hear poetry and you have, like, a particular idea.

[Rich Roll]

It's sort of like, how dare you call yourself a poet?

[Tig Notaro]

You know, But Andrea was so, you know, you don't need a college degree to.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, you're a poet, I see.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. It wasn't that vibe. It was like, you know, in the documentary, Andrea talks about basically knowing five words and rearranging them with each different poem. But that was kind of the beauty was how accessible Andrea was and how deeply they could hit you. There was a video that went. Maybe you saw it. The Love Letter from the Afterlife, I think. So where it was Andrea's final interview and the host had Andrea read a poem to Meg, Andrea's wife, face to face of a love letter from the afterlife. And it was. It's so beautiful. It's so moving. And, yeah, people were just sending that around. And then I was there in, like, that end of life moment, and then having Andrea die, and then Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey. All of these people are talking about that scrappy little poet that I met backstage at. It's called Old Main, this theater on the CU campus in Boulder. And just thinking, God, that is. That's something. Didn't see this coming at all.

[Rich Roll]

And now there's gonna be this movie, so everybody can.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, that's the other crazy thing is the movie hasn't even come out yet. And it's so exciting to think of how many people will learn about Andrea. But it's also so deeply meaningful to me when people that I know call me and they're like, I had no idea. Or sharing that with somebody that I know personally, that didn't know or read or wasn't aware. And they're like, my childhood friend who lives in Dallas reached out and she was like, tig, I just. I feel robbed that I didn't get to know this person. But just that my friend is appreciating it now is I don't have any feeling of, like, oh, you know. Cause sometimes people are like, oh, well, I liked them before. Like, oh, you're jumping on now. Like, I don't. I mean, I'm excited for anybody to learn about Andrea Gibson.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. This relative, at least from my experience, like, relatively obscure person who posthumously, like, immediately becomes, like, this person that everyone's talking about.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, my wife Stephanie was saying, she goes, you know what's so interesting is there's only a few poets that are known by name. And she was like, and Andrea Gibson just cemented themselves into that list. And, I mean, Andrea broke through on a massive level when Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach had Andrea on there. And Andrea was also well known in the poetry world, was like a full on rock star. Put out eight books, I think, and sold out rock clubs and theaters around the world, but hadn't broken through on the level that they did after that. So, I mean, Andrea bought a house and was very successful, but just was.

[Rich Roll]

Not the degree of difficulty. For a poet to break through into mainstream cultural awareness is like, it's an impossible task. Amanda Gorman is the only one who's been able to do it in nearly impossible decades, essentially.

[Tig Notaro]

So, yeah, it's wild. I Wish I had footage of me meeting Andrea all those years ago. And if somebody could say, and by the way, the world is gonna know about that. Poet.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

You know?

[Rich Roll]

And now they are.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Back to me. Tig.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

You got spinal fusion surgery?

[Tig Notaro]

I did.

[Rich Roll]

How long ago?

[Tig Notaro]

20. 19.

[Rich Roll]

So six years ago. I'm at five months.

[Tig Notaro]

How are you doing?

[Rich Roll]

Recovery. And I need advice. What should I be doing? I'm in this weird period where, you know, I've recovered enough, where I'm. I'm kind of. I'm starting to feel a little normal again. And then I'll be like, oh, whoa. Like, I'm not normal at all. Or like. Like, suddenly I'll have a weird pain. And I'm like, oh, shouldn't that not be happening? Like, So I just wanna.

[Tig Notaro]

That's the worst.

[Rich Roll]

Trade notes with other people that have had this and get a little counsel.

[Tig Notaro]

It's really scary. Cause for so long, you're told, do not get back surgery, right?

[Rich Roll]

Like, yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I spent 10 years trying to avoid it, and now I wish I had gotten it sooner.

[Tig Notaro]

That's where I was. And then you get it, and then your body doesn't feel right or the same. And then any pain or discomfort, you're like, they botched it. I'm screwed. You know, like, that's what I went through. And then one day, something inside of me, because I was told, you know, to walk and keep moving, stay active and don't push it, but something in me was like, like, I'm gonna try treading water. Because I thought that would be a way to strengthen my body without putting too much pressure on my spine. And so I started doing that, and I started at 15 minutes a time.

[Rich Roll]

How long into the recovery?

[Tig Notaro]

I was probably maybe three or four months. I can't remember exactly. So somebody could be like, ha. Caught you. It was six months. I don't know. But it was pretty. I don't know. It was a few months later. I was wearing the back brace. I was doing slow walks around my neighborhood. But I just thought, I need to, like, strengthen my whole body. And so I started treading for 15 minutes. And I was so blown away. I had never treaded water for 15 minutes. I had no reason to do that. And I was like, wow, I'm gonna keep treading water for 15 minutes. And so I started doing that. And then once that became, like, no big deal, I was like, I'm gonna do it for 30 minutes. I'm gonna do it for 45. And then I got up to an hour. And it became this meditative thing for me. I don't put headphones in or anything. I just tread. And I really felt a difference. No doctor told me to do this. Even if people haven't had back surgery, I highly recommend treading water. It's not the only exercise I do, but it's a full body exercise that I really, really feel strengthened. Just every part of me that started making walking and everything else feel a lot better and smoother. Cause I really. Like I said, it's just a full body workout.

[Rich Roll]

All I can think about right now is the fact that I've now decided that the title of this podcast is gonna be Tig Notaro Is Treading Water.

[Tig Notaro]

I mean, it applies.

[Rich Roll]

People will be making their own inferences. Yeah, why not change? Just, like, swim or kick with a kickboard? Like the treading water thing. Like, that's a. I've never heard anyone talk about that. I mean, that's something like you do, like old ladies do, or like water polo.

[Tig Notaro]

I'm an old lady.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I know. We're not that old. Come on.

[Tig Notaro]

I know, but we have gray hair, rich.

[Rich Roll]

No swimming, though.

[Tig Notaro]

No, I mean, a kickboard. You're relying on the board. You know, I want my whole body.

[Rich Roll]

That's the whole thing. And you're still doing this?

[Tig Notaro]

I do, but not as consistently, I would say. Before, I was doing it three days a week. And I've also made up little exercises and moves that I do while I'm treading. And look, even if I'm not doing the actual motion of treading, I'll sometimes switch it up and just swim for a little bit and then tread. But when I get out of the pool, my spine and my body, my whole body just feels. I feel so powerful after I tread for an hour. And now it's more so if I'm, you know, if a hotel I'm staying at has a pool, I'll tread if I have time. Or we have a pool at our office, which is our old starter home. We have a pool there, and so I'll go over there and tread. But it's not as consistent, but I still do it and I love it. And my co host, Fortune, started treading.

[Rich Roll]

And she said, oh, really?

[Tig Notaro]

She's like, man. She was like, I love this.

[Rich Roll]

This could be a whole, like, trend.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, we have listeners because we talk about it.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, you do?

[Tig Notaro]

Fortune will be like, yeah, I was treading this morning. And we have listeners now that. That will write in or tag us and be like, hey, I'm treading now. I love it.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, that's so interesting. I'm gonna send a video to you of me treading water.

[Tig Notaro]

Well, it's funny cause I did some interview. I can't remember what it was for, but the guy was like. The interviewer was like, we wanna interview you when you're doing something that you love to do. And I said, well, I love to tread water. And he was like, all right. So I'm like in the pool with this interviewer who's treading with me. But, you know, I also. I've started doing weight training and I used to do long distance cycling. I'm very much into endurance. I'm nowhere near you, but like, I would do long distance cycling of like 50 to 100 miles a day.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, wow. 50 to 100 miles a day.

[Tig Notaro]

Mm, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

That's legit.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, I had.

[Rich Roll]

How long ago is that? I mean, that's for real cycling?

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, yeah. From the time I was 28 to 32.

[Rich Roll]

Is this like a Boulder thing?

[Tig Notaro]

No, actually my uncle who ate the key lime pie, he is a long distance cyclist. And I remember going to visit and looking at his biking books and being like, that's cool. Like planning a trip around cycling. And I've done those AIDS rides and I've also cycled across France. And my friend and I, we planned this trip and then, you know, would stop along the way at cute little cafes, but through the countryside of France. And then we'd stay in chateaus and take bubble baths and clawfoot tubs and. And to treat ourselves. But I found that very meditative. Cause I didn't have headphones in. I used that time, like I do with treading, to kind of, I always say, connect the dots in my life. I really use that time, even though it's meditative, I use that time to really think about what I want to do and what I'm. You know, just like big ideas kind of come to me during that. But I did a show in Portland, Oregon, and cycled with another comedian to Seattle. And we met this guy on the way there and he let us sleep in his houseboat that he wasn't sleeping in. I mean, we certainly probably weren't terribly safe, but did shows in Portland, cycled to Seattle, did shows there. I couldn't possibly do it, nor do I have an interest in doing that anymore. But one of my rides was on the east coast and I was going. And it's that endurance thing that has really helped me in my life. I was Going uphill. And it was going for a long time. People were getting off of their bikes, resting, walking their bikes up the hill. And I was like, I'm not getting off. I'm just gonna go slow and steady. And I'm just. I have no idea how high this hill is. It was eight miles and it was the greatest feeling when I got to the top. And it was also that thought of, like, I'm so glad I had no idea how long this was, how long.

[Rich Roll]

It was gonna be.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. But I feel like that's that. That was before 2012, and I feel like that's that thing in me that I think helped me push through the 2012. Time is I can do it, lock in, endure.

[Rich Roll]

I can do it, deal with a degree of suffering for an extended period of time. This is a life skill. Yeah. It's rewarding too. And just the process of doing it is so therapeutic mentally, you know, and grounding. But cycling takes up a lot of time.

[Tig Notaro]

It does, it does, but. And again, I don't miss it. I can romanticize about those days and it's fun to be like, yeah, I did that. But it doesn't really wear. We're in Colorado a lot and we cycle as a family, but in such a casual way.

[Rich Roll]

Different way.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. But I'm very curious, like, with what you've done, as much as it feels good to do that kind of extreme long distance, long haul kind of sport and exercise that there's also talk of like, like your body also just registers it as stress and cortisol levels and what's your feeling on the body?

[Rich Roll]

I mean, I think that, yeah, it certainly can be that. Like, you have to really pay attention to how well you're recovering because you can easily tip over into that state where you're just progressively depleting yourself and, you know, dysregulating your hormones and everything. And the older you get, the more recovery you get. So you can't handle the load as well as you could when you're younger. I love it. Obviously right now I can't do it. I hope to one day be able to get back into it. Not that I have some big desire to compete. I don't feel like I have anything.

[Tig Notaro]

To prove, and so what's the point?

[Rich Roll]

But I want to feel good in my body. And there is something, you know, if I'm not, you know, I don't have to go out and do it all day, but like, to be able to go out and feel fit and, you know, confidently ride up A hill and feel good, you know, all of that. Like I, I miss all of that. So I don't foresee a situation in which I'm going to be like training 20 to 25 hours a week again. Like, I was like, that just doesn't fit within my life and it's not that interesting to me anymore. I feel like, like that was an important informative experience in my life that taught me a lot and was extremely meaningful and valuable to me and I could go back to that well and tap it. But I think I've learned most of the lessons that I needed to learn from that and now I want to learn in other and different ways rather than get stay stuck in that lane. But I still love it and it makes me feel like me when I'm doing it and not being able to do it. You know, I don't feel like myself, but I don't miss like being exhausted all the time because, you know, I know what it's like to. I've spent many, many years of my life, like training for specific performance goals and what that requires to do it well is, you know, kind of living in this liminal kind of zombie like state for extended periods of time. And there's too many other things that doing right now that are too interesting and meaningful to me to make that kind of sacrifice.

[Tig Notaro]

But what does, what is your like, I know you want to feel good, but like, if you're like, if I could just be doing this and this and this, I think I'd be good with where I am.

[Rich Roll]

What do you mean? What are you asking? I feel like this question is sort of like the person who was asking you, like, what you know, so you're doing the standup and for what? And what's next?

[Tig Notaro]

Well, I guess you're saying you don't wanna do like, you don't wanna be as extreme and you're also in this recovery phase.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. And I'm like, I turn 59 next week. Like, who are we kidding?

[Tig Notaro]

But you're not feeling yourself still.

[Rich Roll]

Sure.

[Tig Notaro]

So what would make you feel like, okay, I'm back to myself.

[Rich Roll]

I would like to be able to show up and run a marathon for fun with people and feel fit enough to be able to do that where it' like some giant ordeal and be kind of adventure ready. When a friend calls and says, oh, we're going to hike the Grand Canyon or we're going to go do whatever thing this weekend, I don't feel like I'm not in a position to be able to do that physically.

[Tig Notaro]

And has your doctor said, oh, you know, in time you'll likely be able to.

[Rich Roll]

No, my surgeon is very conservative and I asked him like two months ago about swimming and he's like, no, not yet. Like he's, he has me on a very slow roll with this. And I also said to him, so how about running? Like, am I going to be able to get back to that? And he basically looked at me and said, well, there's just some things that, you know, you're going to have to think about that, you know, that expire. You know, he was very non optimistic about that. I know other people who've had spinal fusion surgery have gotten back to running. So I feel confident that if I don't make mistakes and I'm patient and build a new foundation slowly over time that I'll be able to get back to doing that. But who knows? So that was the question I had for you. How long did it take before you felt like you weren't thinking about the fact that you have this pain or that maybe you were fragile and going to break?

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah. When you're saying that your doctor said no swimming yet, it makes me think, eh, maybe I wasn't doing that at three months. It could have been six months. Again, I don't know. I don't remember. I'm not clear on all the markers, but I remember for a long time looking at people on bikes thinking, how are they doing that? You know, things seemed absolutely impossible. And yeah, I don't have a clear memory of how long it took me. I mean I still, I'm very careful about how much I lift and how I lift, which of course you should be regardless of any sort of surgery. But it's always in there. Like I gotta be careful, you know, I don't, I don't have the body that other people have, but I do have a body and I have come a long way with my body.

[Rich Roll]

Which vertebrae were fused?

[Tig Notaro]

It was the. Yeah, I wish I was lower.

[Rich Roll]

It's lower. Okay.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I don't know how helpful this has been to me. I know, I know I'm down low. Not up in your neck?

[Tig Notaro]

No, it was down low. What about you? Yours was low, right?

[Rich Roll]

Low L5s1.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah, I was. I mean, I've seen videos of you. You were up and about pretty quickly.

[Rich Roll]

I was walking around. I mean, but that's really all I'm doing still. I've kept it pretty low key.

[Tig Notaro]

Chill.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Cause I just think like the only thing I can do is Screw it up, you know? And my. My compulsive, addictive nature is to, like, oh, I walked a mile today. I'll walk two tomorrow, and then I'll walk three the next day. You know, it's like, that's what I wanna do. And so I'm trying to see what it feels like to do the opposite of that. Cause I think ultimately it will pay dividends over the long haul.

[Tig Notaro]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

So I've had to restrain myself, but I did, you know, so it was pouring rain last night, right? And I've got this little home gym, and I was gonna go. I woke up super early. It was dark, and I went into my. Like, slid the door open to my little gym, and it was wet on the, like, rubber floor that I have in there. And I slipped and I fell over the bench. And I have not. I've been so careful about everything. And I was like, oh, my God, did I just break my. I literally thought I had just ruined the whole thing. It was one of the scariest things. Yeah, I think I'm fine. Like, I got up and I was like, I think I'm okay.

[Tig Notaro]

But it does feel like your body is Jenga for a while. That is terrifying. After my mother tripped, I've become very. I don't casually walk into a bathroom or in or out of a shower or bathtub. Like, I'm.

[Rich Roll]

I know. Now we're having old people conversation.

[Tig Notaro]

Look, I'm not the one that's 59, okay? I'm only 54.

[Rich Roll]

I know, I know.

[Tig Notaro]

I'm a youngster.

[Rich Roll]

For the record, you are much younger than me.

[Tig Notaro]

Much younger.

[Rich Roll]

And, yes, we all know this. All right, I gotta let you go. What's the documentary called?

[Tig Notaro]

Come See Me in the good light.

[Rich Roll]

And November 14th, 14th on Apple TV.

[Tig Notaro]

Please make a note of it and watch.

[Rich Roll]

Congrats on that.

[Tig Notaro]

Thank you.

[Rich Roll]

That's super cool. I look forward to seeing it.

[Tig Notaro]

And thank you for having me. I really do.

[Rich Roll]

This was great. Great.

[Tig Notaro]

I. I love what you do.

[Rich Roll]

I'm not scared of you anymore.

[Tig Notaro]

Oh, good. I think I'm a little scared of you.

[Rich Roll]

No, this is. This was delightful. I really appreciate the level of presence that you brought to this experience. Thank you.

[Tig Notaro]

Thank you.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. All right. TickNation.com signing off.

[Tig Notaro]

Yes, indeed.

[Rich Roll]

Until next time. Thanks. Can I come and see you at Largo?

[Tig Notaro]

You can come see me anywhere.

[Rich Roll]

All right, I'm going to do that.

[Tig Notaro]

Great.

[Rich Roll]

All right. Let's tread water.

[Tig Notaro]

Would love it.

[Rich Roll]

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode [e-mail] where you can find the entire podcast archive, my Books, Finding Ultra Voicing, Change, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any [e-mail] today's show is was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.