Todd Marinovich: The Superstar Quarterback Who Lost Himself In Drugs & Found Himself In Love

Summary

The Rich Roll Podcast

Guest: Todd Marinovich
Episode: The Superstar Quarterback Who Lost Himself In Drugs & Found Himself In Love
Date: December 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply personal and unguarded conversation with Todd Marinovich—once heralded as the ultimate football prodigy, and later infamous for a public fall from grace due to intense addiction struggles. Todd joins Rich Roll to share his journey through generational trauma, the suffocating pressures of perfectionism, the descent into addiction, the pursuit of identity beyond football, and the hard-won peace of self-acceptance and service. The discussion is a powerful meditation on the cost of chasing external validation and the work involved in reclaiming a life filled with purpose and love.

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Main Topics & Discussion Flow

1. Todd’s Life Now & the Ongoing Recovery Journey (07:49–10:10)

• Sobriety Status and Mental State:

  • Todd reports feeling “really good” in the present, spending time with family, and living in Hawaii for peace.
  • Emphasizes recovery as a daily practice:

    “It’s day to day. I just try to live in the moment.” (08:40, Todd)

  • Stays away from risky environments; non-negotiables include not putting himself in places he shouldn’t be.

• Service as Recovery:

  • Sees being of service to others as a vital element of staying sober.

• Connection to Recovery Community:

  • Not actively engaged with formal programs at the moment, more on “his own protocol.”

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2. The Marinovich Family Story: Genius, Obsession & Trauma (10:10–26:38)

• Marv Marinovich’s Influence:

  • Father, former NFL player, had his career cut short due to overtraining—became obsessed with training science.
  • Raised Todd in an experimental “lab” environment for peak athletic performance—authoritarian, scientific, ahead of his time but emotionally rigid.
  • Media portrayed Todd as a “robotic QB” who was deprived of a normal childhood and autonomy.

• Todd’s Perspective on His Upbringing:

  • Confirms exaggerated media narratives (especially regarding his diet) but insists he genuinely loved football—his introverted, artistic nature was misunderstood.

• Crushing Duality and Identity Crisis:

  • Todd felt forced into two identities: public “superhuman QB” vs private, shy, artistic kid.
  • Early identity confusion led to self-medicating with marijuana and alcohol as coping mechanisms.

  “From the outset... there’s almost this identity crisis happening. Even before drugs, there’s a double life.” (16:20, Rich Roll)

• Cycle of Generational Trauma:

  • Parenting lessons: Realized the futility of trying to control his own children, prioritizes honesty with them over authority.
  • Acknowledges passing on some traits of “defiance” genetically and culturally.

• Making Peace with Marv:

  • The relationship shifted in Marv’s later years, particularly through collaborative art projects and during his battle with dementia:

    “I was super stoked and grateful that I suited up and showed up.” (21:39, Todd)

  • Forgiveness based on understanding Marv did his best.

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3. Rise to Football Fame & Early Descent into Addiction (26:38–43:57)

• Breakout High School & College Years:

  • Todd became the most celebrated high school QB in America, played for USC, started as QB as a redshirt freshman.
  • Pressure wasn’t just from Marv, but self-inflicted:

    “If I can perform, then I’m gonna get the love, I’m gonna get everything that I want.” (25:12, Todd)

• Family Dynamics:

  • Felt responsible not just for his father’s happiness but for family stability:

    “If I performed, then their relationship seemed to be a lot more mellow.” (25:55, Todd)

• Introduction to Substances:

  • First experiences with alcohol and marijuana in high school:

    “Marijuana… it just was instantaneously, everything’s gonna be okay... It was a spiritual experience.” (32:26–32:40, Todd)

  • The infamous “Marijuana-vich” chant at a basketball game outed his use to family:

    “If I could have crawled in a hole…” (34:15, Todd)

• Addiction as Survival:

  • Substances “kept me on the planet… they work until they don’t.” (35:35, Todd)

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4. College Success, Escalating Addiction, and NFL Entry (43:57–62:16)

• USC and NFL:

  • Double life intensified—excelling on the field while spiraling off it.
  • Conflicted relationship with authority, including with USC’s coach; benching, rebellion, and “Sun Bowl” story mark a breaking point.
  • Entered the NFL Draft as a sophomore, a rarity at the time—drafted first round by the Raiders.

• Party & Drug Culture:

  • Drug use escalated: alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, and later “China White” heroin and pharmaceutical opiates.
  • Vivid story: “the book opens” with Todd, out of veins, using a ground-down needle to inject in his neck (“needle to the jugular”), exemplifying rock-bottom desperation (40:32–41:09).

• Grandiosity vs. Brokenness:

  • The double-edged sword of the athlete’s bulletproof mentality:

    “The only way that I can really compete at that high, high level is to believe I can do that every time I go out. Realistically, I can’t… but I gotta believe it.” (43:33, Todd)

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5. The Raiders, Collapse, and Aftermath (62:16–70:29)

• Life as a Raider:

  • Culture of excess enabled behavior—party scenes, proximity to Hollywood, famous friends.
  • Attempts by Raiders teammates to intervene (Marcus Allen, Howie Long), but Todd was “on a different frequency” and didn’t listen.

• Self-Destructive Urges:

  • Welcomed falling apart: “I was welcoming the hammer coming down…I didn’t want to quit, but I desperately wanted out.” (60:53–61:02, Todd)
  • Success was a “prison” that he built for himself.

• Centrality of Father’s Approval:

  • Culminates in the “Giants game” for the Raiders: finally gets true acknowledgment from his dad:

    “You’ve exceeded all my expectations…” (69:11, Marv via Todd)

  • Once achieved, Todd’s sense of mission for football evaporates; couldn’t find motivation to continue at the same level.

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6. Searching for Identity: Art, Recovery, and Service (72:24–94:00)

• The Turn Toward Art:

  • After football, began painting as a means of earning a living and expressing his true self:

    “I’m addicted to color today… I’m blown away by it.” (76:07–77:14, Todd)

  • Art as a lifeline; creativity was a return to his genuine self, not a “performance.”

• Addiction & Relapse:

  • Long, repetitive cycle of failed attempts at sobriety, never a single rock bottom:

    “My story of recovery is one of relapse and that… comes with its own recipe for shame…” (81:07, Rich)

• The Surrender Paradox:

  • Martial-bred self-will and athletic determination can’t solve addiction; it requires surrender:

    “The key to this prison that you locked yourself in is in your front pocket all along.” (82:24, Rich)

  • Recovery and art both demand letting go of control rather than forcing outcomes.

• Importance of Connection:

  • Lonely suffering in the public eye added barrages of shame, but notes that universally, the feeling is the same for all addicts—“the hopelessness.”
  • Service and honest human connection are the antidotes:

    “Being of service…where I live, it’s endless in that area.” (108:55, Todd)

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7. Lessons, Reflections, and Messages of Hope (94:00–115:56)

• On Perfectionism:

  • Rejects notion of “perfect practice makes perfect”:

    “That is just so insane… what I’ve learned, especially in art, is my mistakes are my best shit sometimes.” (100:39–101:26, Todd)

• On Compassion and Vulnerability:

  • Discipline without compassion is cruelty; vulnerability is true strength.
  • Sobriety and connection demand honest vulnerability, which has always been hardest for him.

• Universality of Suffering and Recovery:

  • At the end:

    “We’re all the same… My experience with addiction, it doesn’t matter. The alcoholic or the freaking heroin. There’s no difference.” (98:56, Todd) “Shame’s at the root of all of it… I know shame is something you’re deeply acquainted with, and it’s a killer.” (114:35, Rich)

• Forgiveness and Self-Love:

  • The book is “an act of self love after decades of self defiance.” (87:47, Rich referencing book’s opening)
  • Todd works, imperfectly, at self-compassion and being gentle with himself—acknowledges it’s still a process.

• Hope and Advice for the Still-Struggling:

  • “There is a way out, but you’re not gonna like it. But that’s the deal. There is a way out.” (109:37–109:48, Todd)
  • First step is always surrender: “I can’t do this.”

• Why Share the Story?

  “It’s my duty, from what I’ve lived through, to share my experience… I hope I can connect with one, you know, because I do know what it’s like.” (114:48–115:17, Todd)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the tension of living up to expectations:

  “From the outset... there’s almost this identity crisis happening… Even before drugs, there’s a double life.” (16:20, Rich)

• On the futility of control:

  “Trying to control them is probably not going to work out.” (17:43, Rich, regarding parenting)

• On athletic performance and hidden pain:

  “The only way that I can really compete at that high, high level is to believe I can do that every time I go out.” (43:33, Todd)

• On addiction and coping:

  “They work until they don’t.” (35:35, Todd, on substances used to cope)

• On the need for compassion in discipline:

  “Discipline without compassion is cruelty.” (102:46, Todd, referencing a lesson from his book)

• On vulnerability:

  “Vulnerability is strength… the only way to get and maintain sobriety is by having an open relationship with vulnerability.” (103:43, Rich)

• On shame and breaking the stigma:

  “Shame is at the root of all of it… it’s a killer.” (114:35, Rich)

• On the hope of recovery:

  “There is a way out. But you’re not gonna like it. But that’s the deal. There is a way out.” (109:37–109:48, Todd)

• On the shared human struggle:

  “We’re all the same… In everything that we do, we’re trying to pull apart and be grouped to create the differences. And it’s that we are all, you know, the same.” (98:56, Todd)

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Highlight | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:38 | Todd on current life, sobriety, living in Hawaii | | 11:02 | Childhood, Marv Marinovich’s philosophy | | 15:08 | Media myths vs. Todd’s reality—lab-raised QB past | | 16:20 | Dual identity and early double life | | 17:06 | Parenting and honesty with his kids | | 25:05 | Pressure, performance, and parental approval | | 32:26 | Marijuana’s role as emotional relief for teenage Todd | | 34:14 | “Marijuana-vich” chant public outing | | 40:32 | Needle to the neck: the depths of Todd’s addiction | | 61:01 | “Success created a prison” – Todd on wanting out | | 67:38 | Raiders/“Giants game”: achieving then losing motivation | | 72:24 | The turn to art—painting as a healing path | | 81:07 | The endless cycle of relapse in recovery | | 82:24 | The paradox of surrender as a high-performing athlete | | 94:00 | Reflections on self-love, shame, compassion | | 100:39 | Critique of perfectionism | | 102:46 | “Discipline without compassion is cruelty” lesson | | 109:37 | “There is a way out…”—Todd’s advice to those struggling | | 114:48 | Why Todd shares his story—“my duty… to connect with one…” |

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Summary of the Episode’s Core Essence

Todd Marinovich’s conversation with Rich Roll is a raw, honest chronicle of a life that was engineered for external greatness but left emotionally stunted and spiritually starving. Through football, Todd won almost everything—but lost himself to addiction, alienation, and social stigma. The episode vividly illustrates the cost of perfectionism and externally imposed identity, the pain of generational wounds, the illusion of control, and ultimately, the slow, imperfect reclamation of a life led in service, creativity, and self-acceptance. The lessons are hard-earned, the message is universal: hope is a decision, shame must be faced, and radical honesty—especially with oneself—is the only starting point for transformation. “There is a way out. But you’re not gonna like it. But that’s the deal. There is a way out.”

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Transcript

[A]

My experience with addiction was on a different frequency. I couldn't stand me or what I did. I wanted so out. Oh, it was just, it felt so fake. It's my duty, what I've lived through, to share my experience. And, you know, I hope I can connect with one, you know, because I do know what it's like.

[B]

If you happen to be in my general age range, then there's a chance that, like me, you grew up following the life trajectory of today's guest one of my generation's most promising professional athletes who befell a fall from grace of such astonishing proportions, his life became synonymous with a cautionary tale about perfectionism and performance, poor parenting and generational trauma. From his first breath, Todd Marinovich was raised to be the world's greatest quarterback, beginning well before Pop Warner throughout high school and during his early years at usc. This dream, at least on a surface level, seemed to be unfolding beautifully, courtesy of a dad I think it's fair to say was far too invested in it becoming reality. A former football player himself, Marv Marinovich had taken USC to a national championship in 1962, but his career in the NFL with the Raiders was cut short due to overtraining. This in turn prompted Marv to develop this obsession with understanding training techniques, this investigation, this journey that he went on that led him to studying Soviet and Eastern bloc conditioning, philosophies, learnings that at the time he was well ahead of his time. He then put to work in his own home by raising his son as if in a lab, a lab designed to optimize every single facet of Todd's young life, and a lab Marv oversaw pretty much with authoritarian rule. Ever eager to win over his dad's approval, Todd basically did everything he could to live up to his father's expectations and public expectations, exceeding them at times by doing all kinds of things, breaking high school records, taking USC to a Rose bowl victory in his freshman year, which marked the first time that a USC freshman had started at quarterback since before World War II. But things were not all as they seemed behind closed doors. Todd as a kid who began self medicating with marijuana in high school and using alcohol to relieve himself of the burdensome expectations being placed upon him everywhere he looked. Nonetheless, the kid continued to win, often in stunning fashion, and eventually took his talents to his father's beloved Raiders as a first round NFL draft pick. But he was hanging on by a thread by that time, and his life would soon fall completely apart. And I'm going to let Todd share the rest. But suffice it to say that addiction took hold of Todd to such a depraved extent, he would end up in the darkest and most desperate of places, gambling with his life for a needle to the neck with without a care of dying. It's truly an extraordinary story, one you might have seen told years back in the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary about his life. But now Todd shares all of it in his own words and from his point of view in this conversation and in his newly released memoir, Marinovich. Look, I've put my skin through a lot over the years. Decades in chlorinated pools, way too much Southern California sun. Basically zero thought about skincare. And it wasn't really until I hit my mid fift that I finally kind of woke up and started taking care of my body's largest organ for the first time. Which began with Bon Charge and their amazing award winning red light face mask. The science here is pretty fascinating. It's equipped with optimal wavelengths of red light at 630 nanometers and near infrared at 850 nanometers that work at the cellular level to help promote youthful glowing skin, smoother skin texture and more even looking skin. And the best part, the red light face mask fits right into everyday life. Just 10 to 20 minutes a day, totally portable, suitable for all skin types and backed by a one year manufacturer's warranty. But Bon Charge isn't just about your face. Their sauna blanket has been great for recovery. It's like having your own personal sauna that folds up when you're done. So go to boncharge.com and use coupon code richroll20 to save 20%. That's boncharge.com code richroll20 for 20% off. I got news for you. The holidays are coming. And with them, all these questions kind of start swirling in our minds about what we're gonna give people that we care about. And honestly, it's really hard because most gifts just end up forgotten somewhere. But the gifts that actually do get used are the ones that make someone wanna use them. And an does exactly that with their incredible line of high quality running and hiking gear. Shoes like the Cloud Ultra for trails, the Cloud Runner 2 for roads, the Club H for recovery days, hiking stuff for exploring nature in the mountains, and even accessories like performance socks, caps, hydration packs, backpacks and travel bags that work as amazing stocking stuffers. So here's the thing. The real gift isn't the gear. It's what becomes possible when the gear gets out of the way. Those early morning runs where your mind just clears that trail you've been meaning to hike, that runner's high or that silence at the summit when everything just clicks. Movement changes things. And sometimes all someone needs is the right gear to make movement more fun, more stylish and more accessible. So move yourself on over to on.com richroll to explore my picks for holiday gifts. So this is a classic what it Was like, what Happened and what It's like now episode in which Todd reflects on the trauma he suffered at the hands of his father, the career that never was, the things about him that are misunderstood due to the press misrepresenting him, how he survived one of the most bone chilling bouts with drug addiction that I've ever heard, and how he pursues life today as an artist, as a father intent upon not imposing the trauma he experienced on his kids, and as just a sober person trying to live one day at a time. There's so much in Todd's story and as someone who is privy to thousands of stories like this, Todd stands out just because of the sheer extremity of it all. You can hear his pain. The struggle for him is still very real and ongoing. That's pretty evident and undeniable. But there's also a sense that he has made peace with his past. And so I guess the main thing I hope that you get out of listening to this is that no matter how far down you have fallen, no matter how dire or desperate your circumstances, Todd's testimony is that hope is a decision. And when you make the decision to be hopeful, life become possible. Well, Todd, it's absolutely a pleasure to have you here. I'm looking forward to marinating in that Marinovic experience.

[A]

Cool. Thanks for having me, Rich.

[B]

I think the best way to go about this is to do an old school what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. Are you up for that?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I think the best place to begin, like first off, before we get into anything like how are you doing right now? Where are you at right now with your sobriety, with how you feel about your life? Before we look into the rear view mirror, I just want to get a gut check on the present moment for you.

[A]

Present moment is good, really good. I in the area, seeing family and that's always important and enjoying the time here while I'm here. But I'll be back in Hawaii very shortly. Yeah.

[B]

Relationship with the kids is good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're on steady ground with your sobriety.

[A]

Right now, you know, and it's something That's. It's day to day. I can't. It's tough knowing that no matter what I do today has really no bearing on tomorrow. And so I just try to live in the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And be of service. That's kind of what I try to do.

[B]

What are your non negotiables. To make sure that you're keeping on track.

[A]

Just not being where I'm not supposed to be. There's just what. Ask myself what I'm not. What am I there really for? And concerts can be a little bit sticky. But I always take somebody. I don't do that shit alone. Yeah.

[B]

Are you tapped into the program of recovery or are you on your own kind of protocol?

[A]

Kind of just on protocol at the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Living in Hawaii.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Away from the noise. Right. Away from all of the preconceived notions of who you are and who you're supposed to be. Is that part of.

[A]

Just feels right? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Let's take it back to the beginning here. There'll be a lot of people watching or listening who are familiar with your story or at least think that they're familiar with your story. And that's part of the reason, I'm sure, why you decided to write this book, to tell your story in your own words. Cause I think there's a lot of misconceptions floating out there around who you are and how you became the person that you are. So I want to hear your version of it. But let's begin at the beginning. You're this kid growing up in Orange County. You're kind of an artistic surfer kid, a shy kid, but you have this very interesting father figure who looms large in your story. How do you set the stage when people ask you who you are and how it all began?

[A]

Well, at that age, Marv was a giant. A giant of a man, because growing up, always looking up at him. But he was a big dude. 6, 3, 2, 70 when he played. And I got to know firsthand what defensive linemen were like in the NFL early on. He showed me throughout my whole young life. And it was scary because that's exactly who he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So Marv, your dad, he. Correct me if I'm wrong, he led USC to a national championship in 1962.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So USC guy goes on to play for the Raiders and ultimately ends up not realizing his potential because he overtrained.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Correct. And so his professional football career gets cut short, and then he becomes obsessed with training techniques like, why did I over train how could I have done it differently? And he starts to steep himself in all these different philosophies of training, Eastern Bloc, Russian modalities, et cetera. And you can make a strong argument that he was way ahead of the curve. He figured out some stuff well in advance of what everyone else was doing. But then you come along, he's got a son, and he sort of realizes, well, this is the ultimate opportunity to apply everything that he's learned onto your young self. And he asks himself this question, like, what would happen if you could control the environment of a young athlete and raise somebody to be a champion? I mean, is that fair? Was that his, like, operating philosophy?

[A]

You nailed it. Except that I came along right at the start of his. His career, so to speak, with the Raiders.

[B]

He was a strength and condition coach.

[A]

But that was his focus. I mean, he coached positions throughout his coaching career, but he was all about. He was a scientist, basically. Yeah.

[B]

A demanding one, to say the least.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. You know, the narrative that's been out there, we're the same age, essentially. So I've lived with your story in real time throughout the course of your life and very familiar with who you are and what you were doing when you were doing it, because of our similarity in age. And there was this narrative as you started to develop as an athlete in high school that he was this overbearing personality who forced you to play football. And all of the articles that were written were about this robotic QB who was incubated in a lab, who's never eaten McDonald's and is just this absolute killer purebred. And in the 30 for 30 that you did with ESPN, I think that was in 2011, and in your book, you're telling a very different story about who this person is or was.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, some of it was accurate, but it was mainly the diet that was blown so out of proportion. And at the time, being like 15 years old, when I think People magazine interviewed me, I was like, well, shit, I can't say tell the truth about my diet, even though I was sneaking on the side, even through my mother and her side of the family. So I said, no, you know, I've never had that. And then it was such big headlines that it was like a runaway train. Then they did. It was just an onslaught. And it seemed like at that time I was getting attention for that rather than my skills on the field.

[B]

Yeah. And rather than being recognized for what you were doing as an athlete, everything was about this, like, laboratory kind of aspect of your life that was a little out of whack. And not for nothing, you didn't want any of this. I mean, you love football, but. And that gets missed also, because there's this idea that your dad was making you play football. You're pretty clear that, like, you love the game.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But that you're this really shy kid. Like, you weren't seeking out the spotlight. You're getting all this attention and all this media, and, you know, that kind of materializes later into magazine covers and the like. But you weren't really about that, and that made you deeply uncomfortable from the beginning. So this narrative is getting spun out in the world that feels out of your control. That doesn't necessarily or realistically reflect who you are. And so from the very outset of your athletic career or your young life, there's almost this identity crisis that's happening. Like, you're being cast as this character in the world that isn't really you. And even before drugs enter the picture, there's. There's a double life happening.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's a confusing experience for a young. For a young man to, you know, navigate.

[A]

Absolutely. And now having kids that are in their teenage years, it's just a trip, you know, and it's.

[B]

In what way?

[A]

Well, in a way that is soberingly serious of just about. There's no such thing as experimental drug use today. You just wind up dead. That's super scary. But it's just a different world. Yeah. That they're growing. I couldn't imagine going through my high school experience with Instagram or something, or phone.

[B]

How do you talk to your kids about your past and drugs and alcohol?

[A]

I'm just honest with them. Yeah, I am.

[B]

And what is their reaction to that or their relationship to substances, like being, you know, young people in the world where that. That's around?

[A]

We'll find out. You know, it's. It's ongoing. They're young, and I definitely don't have the answers other than, you know, suit up and show up and be honest. And when I say I'm going to be there, I did the best of my ability to be there.

[B]

But one thing I think you've learned is that trying to control them is probably not going to work out.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right. You think? Yes. And it's been passed on the gene, too, of just defiance. And I think that's in every teen that, you know. You're not going to tell me what to do.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, differentiating, like, they got to see who they are by testing the boundaries, like, part of that's good. You know, it can go too far. Obviously, you're living example. You're a test case in that. But when I think of your life, it's just all about all these dualities, you know, the athlete and the addict, the kind of sensitive artist and then the superhuman guy on the field, and this crisis of identity that I think is at the crux of your whole life story that I feel like, on some level, the book is an attempt for you to resolve for yourself, who is this guy? You've been programmed from day one to be this champion, and you go out and you fulfill that on some level for yourself, but really for your dad and for coaches and teammates, et cetera. You never really had a normal childhood. You never really had the opportunity to decide for yourself, like, who you are and what's important to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it's like, the most predictable thing ever that you would find yourself, you know, moving towards drugs and alcohol as a. As a way to salve like, that when you're young, you don't understand what that confusion is all about or the. That. That. That. That feeling of unease that accompanies you wherever you go. So, you know, to me, like, I understand that. Like, I. I can. It just makes perfect sense that that's where you would end up and most.

[A]

Do, you know, and especially, you know, at that age, like you say.

[B]

So your dad, you know, for better or worse, is controlling your environment. For sure, he cares a lot about your development as an athlete. Yeah, there's a lot of love there, but it's delivered in harsh tones. Yeah, right. Like, some of the stories are crazy. Like, making you run eight miles is like, you know, if you didn't perform well, like, you know, what you had to do to make sure that he was okay. Like, he was quite the taskmaster and to this day, still sort of stands out in culture as this cautionary tale about the overbearing dad. I recently rewatched Friday Night Lights, like, the entire show, like, all five seasons of it or whatever. And there is an arc. Have you watched that show before?

[A]

Some of it.

[B]

There's an arc where suddenly this new young quarterback shows up with a dad that I can't help but think was modeled somewhat on your dad, and he's sort of a threat to the current quarterback, and. And there's a lot of friction with the coach, et cetera. It's undeniable that this kid is, like, by far the most talented kid, and he's been raised from day one to be this Champion. And it just. It's so evocative of your story. You know, I can't imagine that that would have been built into that television show short of your story. So the narrative that was out in the world was, you know, this guy is an absolute beast. But what's confusing is that there was a lot of love there too.

[A]

For sure. For sure.

[B]

And I think that in, like, I rewatched the 30 for 30, and in reading your book, I feel like you're still trying to make sense of how you feel about the whole thing.

[A]

It was a definite, one of a kind experience. And, you know, the best and the hardest part was toward the end of his life. You know, it was something that I would never could have expected, him getting sick with dementia. But it was just enjoying the moment with him. And we had some amazing moments, and amongst the craziness, but it was. I was just super, super stoked and grateful to that. I suited up and showed up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, that's.

[B]

That's what you get to do in sobriety, for sure. And in his case, his Alzheimer's showed up in a way where he was able to just be present and. And all of the judgment and all of that was gone. Right. So you could just be with him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But even before that, you had really mended the relationship. I mean, you guys were, like, sculpting together at the end of the 30 for 30. There's that incredible wood sculpture that the two of you worked on for, like, 18 months. Right. That's really an exquisite piece of art that, to me, symbolizes some healing between you because you worked on it symbiotically. There wasn't, like a hierarchy of who was in charge or who was telling.

[A]

Who what to do, which was amazing to experience when he's always had been up there throughout my whole life. And then he stepped off that, and it was just effortless. And that's the way we do best when we're not fighting, you know?

[B]

Yeah. But it took a long time, a long time to get there. Yeah.

[A]

So a lifetime.

[B]

Just so, you know, the audience kind of understands where we're at. Marv is raising you in a very specific way in this ultimate performance environment. And you basically shoulder the assignment, and you end up at modern day as a freshman in high school, which is this powerhouse high school football program. And you're starting. This is unprecedented. Not only are you starting, you're killing it. And your parents get divorced, and you end up transferring to a different high school, Capistrano Valley. Right. And you end up breaking all the record. Like, you become, essentially, by the time you're a senior in high school, like the ultimate college football prospect. Like, you're the most recruited guy in the country. You are the superstar football player in the United States.

[A]

I'm pretending to be.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you were. Yeah. Like, the identity crisis is about to emerge in full bloom. But at this point, you're dabbling a little bit, but it seems like it's under control. So I don't think you were pretending, like, when you were on the field. I think that you. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. You were happy to be on the field. It was all the pressure and the expectations and this misconstrued sense of who you were that was creating the confusion. Like, on the field, things were simple. You were able, especially under pressure, to execute.

[A]

Yeah, completely. And the pressure was my. You know, I was putting it on myself.

[B]

Were you, though?

[A]

Yeah, I loaded. You know, I took it. That's the way I perceived it. As if I could. Like you said, if I can perform, then everything. I'm gonna get the love, I'm gonna get everything that I want.

[B]

Right. I mean, the reason you were putting the pressure on yourself was because the pressure had been placed upon you, and the equation was like, you have to do well in order to feel okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at the same time, I don't know how much you thought about this, but there's a real unhealthy transference here. Like, you were responsible for making sure that your father felt okay.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

You know, and that's a heavy burden.

[A]

And more than that, the mom felt okay if I performed, then their relationship seemed to be a lot more mellow.

[B]

Right. So their marriage was your responsibility also.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So not only did you have to break records on the field, you had to keep your parents together, and you had to make sure that your dad was okay and your parents were okay. And your mom was, like, the softy. Right. Like she was the safe place for you.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I rewatched the 30 for 30, the thing that stood out for me the most, and it's just kind of a moment that passes really quickly. There's a moment where your dad is asked, is there anything you would have done differently?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically asking him to reflect on the choices that he made about how he raised you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he says, well, I would have. I suppose I could have done a better job keeping him away from the drugs.

[A]

Really?

[B]

He says that. Which is Fine. But to me, he's missing the whole point. You know, it's like, all right, well, the drugs were the symptom of the problem, not the problem. Like, he still wasn't able to identify his role in everything that, like, led up to you making those choices, which, you know, for me, if I was watching that and I was you, I'd be like. That would be painful for me.

[A]

I got to the point where I fully felt and believed that he was doing the best he could with the information that he had at the time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It just felt.

[B]

And that's the only way to move forward, right? To find. To find forgiveness and love.

[A]

It was easy too, with him because I fully believed that he had my best interest always and gave me so much confidence. Without him, I wouldn't have believed I could have done things that I did on the field. And then when I stopped playing, he was always there. And that's just, what more do you want than a human?

[B]

So the holidays are awesome. I think we can all agree on that. But, you know, not without their irresistible temptations. Cookies everywhere, pie at every gathering. The sugary fruit thing your aunt made. And listen, you know, I'm not immune, but neither is your gut, meaning your microbiome is absolutely paying attention to what's going on. All of which is why AG1 matters. During this extended two month stretch, you need something to anchor you. And One scoop of AG1 consolidates your multivitamin, your superfoods, your antioxidants. This daily health drink takes 30 seconds, easy peasy. And the next gen formula is clinically shown to fill nutrient gaps, which is huge when your diet goes sideways. For a handful of weeks here and there, I keep all four flavors around. Original citrus, berry and tropical cold water first thing in the morning. Just one baseline thing locked in before everything gets away from me. And right now, AG1 has their best offer ever. @drinkag1.com Richroll you get a welcome kit, a flavor sampler, plus $126 in free [e-mail] richroll this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. When it comes to the infinite scroll of our digital world, there's an important distinction I like to draw, which is that there is a difference between consuming content mindlessly and, on the other hand, using our computers with creativity and intention as a tool to build something meaningful. Whether that's a coaching practice, for example, a store or a portfolio for your photography, what you need and deserve is a high quality, quality, highly designed platform that reflects your personality without compromising functionality. And now Squarespace is even more powerful, courtesy of something they call Blueprint AI, which asks you to answer a few questions about your goals and your style. And then it generates this completely custom website that looks professionally crafted without any tech skills on your part, even nominally required. Their analytics show you what's actually working, where your audience comes from, what content resonates, real data instead of guessing. So head on over to squarespace.com richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code richroll it's hard, I would imagine, for people to really realize that you are a shy and introverted guy, you know? Cause you were such a larger than life figure on the field. And, you know, you demonstrated your exuberance on the field too. So anybody who's watching you would think, oh, this guy's a showman. Right. So that's the other duality. Not only are you performing athletically, but you're performing to the crowd also.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whereas at the same time, you know, you're this guy who wants to go paint and like, be left alone.

[A]

It is the game that brings that out of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's not really like, Sam, I'm not seeking that, but it just happens playing football. It's great. That's what I just love. It's never over until it's over.

[B]

But that shyness and that introversion finally gets introduced to drugs and alcohol when you're in high school, Right. Did it start at modern day?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you were a. Like a sophomore. Sophomore in high school. How did it start?

[A]

Well, it started with alcohol long before then. Just, you know, stealing drinks from the parties of the family, having, you know, but in high school, going after games to kegers, doing that whole bit. And I like the effects produced by alcohol, for sure.

[B]

Do you remember the first time, like, the feeling of relief?

[A]

It was the. The best one was marijuana. Smoking a joint at that age, it just was instantaneously. Everything's gonna be okay. Right.

[B]

All of that tension that you didn't even know that you were holding is suddenly gone.

[A]

Yes. So it was a spiritual experience for sure. Because it was like, what? I had been seeking this for a long time, and I didn't really get that with the alcohol, but I did with weed.

[B]

And you're like, this is it, man. This is it.

[A]

This is the secret.

[B]

Yeah. In your case, you know, there's a lot of hand wringing over whether or not marijuana is a gateway drug, But I think in your case, it's pretty Clear that maybe it was.

[A]

I can't argue with that.

[B]

Yeah. And this was something maybe your classmates knew you were doing, obviously, but, like. No, but you were keeping it from the. The folks and everybody else. So this was like a secret.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until. You know what I'm talking about.

[A]

Until Mar finds out. Or my mom.

[B]

Well, there was a. There was a crowd chant. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And if I could have crawled in a hole. Yeah.

[B]

Can you explain? Can you just. Can you share what we're talking about.

[A]

For just playing basketball on the free throw line? And so different than. Because you can scream all you want at the football field, we can't hear anything. But in a basketball gym and playing in the opposing. Playing on the road there, it got quiet, and the whole football team's up in the crowd chanting, marijuana, bitch. And it just. It was unmistakable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they're yelling that at me with my family, my grandmother and grandfather, you know, it was definitely.

[B]

That's how the family found out. Yeah. Yeah. We were chatting before the podcast, and I was just saying, you know, that we're the same age, and so I remember when that happened and that became news, and everyone was just calling you Marowanovich.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like that followed you for a long time.

[A]

It sure did.

[B]

For good reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but, you know, listen, the addict is always gonna find their drug of choice, you know, to help them feel okay in the world. And it's just. I think what gets missed by the average person who isn't an addict or isn't familiar with this disease is they just. They don't understand the intense degree of discomfort. And it's not a choice. It's like. It's a survival mechanism on some level. You had to find your way to these things, to these things in order to make it through. Like, I, you know, had you not, like what. You know, have you ever thought about, like, what would have happened or what you would have done if you couldn't find a coping mechanism.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

To, you know, deal with a unique set of circumstances that you found yourself in?

[A]

I mean, not. I've thought that, you know, that it's kept me on the planet, for sure. You know, as bad as they are, they work until they don't.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have a sense of when in your life it stopped working?

[A]

In my case, it has always worked. It's just the consequences keep coming, you.

[B]

Know, it does the job. It's just that there's a lot of.

[A]

Chaos that, you know, and it doesn't do the job like it used to do. The job, like, let's be clear. But it's not the same. It's a chase, it's an illusion.

[B]

So you figure out how you're gonna spin all of these plates and keep it together.

[A]

Oh, it's a juggling act.

[B]

Double down on this double life that you're leading. You graduate from high school and in very celebrated fashion, end up at usc. We were chatting about, like, what would have happened because you thought about going to Stanford, right?

[A]

More than I thought.

[B]

Yeah. We were like, well, we would have definitely party together. But you go to usc. It is kind of a foregone conclusion though. Like, the family legacy. The family legacy was so strong there that had you decided to go to Stanford, I mean, your story is very much one of a rebellion. So maybe that would have been an act of rebellion for you to do that. But you're at USC and this is such a storied football program and you show up with lots of expectations being placed upon you. And once again, you live up to them. I mean, you start as quarterback as a freshman, and this is something that had not happened at USC since World War II. No freshman had been a starting quarterback. Is that right?

[A]

But I also got a full year or a red shirt year.

[B]

You had a red shirt year.

[A]

I was fully a freshman.

[B]

I see.

[A]

But I got a. And that year was. Was a huge in. In my success was that I got to practice against one of the best defenses every day in practice, and they didn't. Even though I did have a different colored jersey, they didn't treat me like I had a different color jersey. They were like body slamming me.

[B]

So you had a development year.

[A]

Yes, a humbling development year. Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool. And I got to travel with the team also, but knew I wasn't gonna play. So it was a good six experience without the pressure. Yeah, it was key.

[B]

That must have been nice, actually. It was nice, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be a little anonymous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the team. And how did your relationship with. With partying change once you got to usc?

[A]

Well, me and my cousin would go up to SC while we were still in high school maybe once or twice after a football game or before a football game. So we knew we wanted to graduate from our high schools then obviously really turn the party up at sc and we were looking forward to it and it changed. Yeah, the big change was the big party was Thursday night. For some reason.

[B]

That'S not the best timing. When did other drugs start to enter the picture? Like cocaine? Sc at sc? Yeah. Right away or Pretty much right away, yeah. And what was the experience of doing that for the first time?

[A]

It's just so much talkative energy. And then I was with a buddy that had so much energy that it was scary because he was a big man. And the mixture without alcohol, I found to be more fun at that time. I couldn't imagine doing it just by itself. The cocaine, which I then tried, and I was right, you should do them together. It was a little much, but, yeah, I really never done a drug I didn't like. I'm one of those that. I enjoy them all, some more than others.

[B]

Is China White at the top of the list, though? It's up there, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Black Tar second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not even in the hierarchy. No. So break it down, China. What's at the top?

[A]

Well, there's some good pharmaceuticals, even though I'm not really a pharmaceutical guy. But I have messed around with Dilaudid and Demerol, and they're good. But the combination of what that almost killed me was the China White cocaine combination. Yeah. I was chasing that one. That was when I was in Canada playing up in the Canadian Football League.

[B]

The book opens with this really harrowing story of you being in a warehouse in east la. You no longer have any more veins available for shooting up. You're on the precipice of getting dope sick, and you gotta make it happen. And you end up filing down this needle that's too large for your purpose and deciding that the only way you're gonna prevent yourself from getting dope sick is by injecting yourself with this needle into your jugular vein in your neck.

[A]

That's a bad place to be.

[B]

Yeah. Knowing this could be the end and still making that decision to do it. And I think that story is. You know, it's terrifying for anybody to read, especially for anybody who isn't familiar with the dark throes of addiction.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it evokes, like, the desperation, like, you'll go to any lengths to do it, and this is where it takes you. And it's so shocking because the contrast between this celebrated aspect of your story and this, you know, other life that you were living, like, it's hard for people to understand, like, how you could end up in a place like that.

[A]

Right. And that's the thing with addiction. It doesn't. It is not in any way prejudice at all. And then I'm asking myself the same thing, because I didn't grow up trying to be this. I was just trying to survive at that time. Stay alive, you know, and I wasn't thinking about. Because you said, like, dying, that's not on the mind. It's just to get well at that stage of the game. And that's just a fuck place to be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So you're at usc, you're killing it. You take the team to the Rose bowl, you know, you have this epic game. You win the Rose bowl. Like you're. I mean, you're just. You're like firing on all cylinders and you're keeping it together. Like you're partying.

[A]

Firing on all cylinders on the field.

[B]

On the field. You're living up to the hype, right? You're living up to the hype for the most part. And I'm curious around the ego piece. Like this idea of knowing that you're living a double life and when you're young and you can kind of get away with stuff, you know, at that age. Right. This idea of not only am I superhuman on the field, I can also, like, be the last guy to leave the party. I can do both and still, you know, show up for practice and do all of those things. Like, there's a insanity to that, but it's very, you know, it's a very ego driven kind of.

[A]

Grandiose.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Grandiosity. Exactly.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in a sense, you need that athletically. And so that's where the duality of that is. It's so dangerous. The only way that I can really compete at that high, high level is to believe I can do that every. Every time I go out. And I can, realistically, I can't do that every time I go out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but I gotta believe it or it's gonna be really bad.

[B]

Yeah. That confidence or that sense of being bulletproof, being this superpower, but also an Achilles heel because you're gonna put yourself in situations you shouldn't be in and thinking you're gonna be able to get away with it. Yeah. You have this clash with the coach at usc. You guys just never should have been coach athlete together. This is just not the right recipe for you. Is he aware of, like, prior to the Sugar bowl and all that stuff that happened? Like, at what point is he aware that maybe you're going off the rails in your social life?

[A]

Well, he was getting stories. The stories were coming back to him about my antics off the field. So he brought me in and was doing the pen. He said, follow the pen. So he had questions really early on of that second season. He was just the authority figure. It was Marv. You know, I saw. I was at that. I was at my peak, rebellious, you know, phase at that point, you know, and I. I don't know how I would even handled me at that. You know, he. And he just came from a different part of the country, and it was Midwestern football, and with that mentality of, you know, the old Woody Hayes or Bo Schem, Beckler years of just three yards in a cloud of dust and fundamentals. And not that I was against fundamentals or anything. It was. I just was. Didn't want to be told what to do, and that's what his job is. And so, yeah, I was in the wrong.

[B]

You know, it's a unique case, though, because, yeah, I mean, the team's not gonna work if you're not taking direction from the coach. Of course, you can't just be out freewheeling it and doing what you want. And yet, at the same time, you're a generational talent, and, you know, there's an argument to be made that you had a better feel for the game and what needed to get done than he did, and yet you don't have the agency to make those calls about which plays to, you know, et cetera. But there were moments where the team was up against it, and it was like, well, let's let you decide. I think on some level, he recognized that you did have a better sense than he did and probably considered that a threat. And his only way to deal with that threat was to come at you hard, quite possibly.

[A]

And we had a good backup, so he just felt like maybe we can pull a few off if I can teach Todd a lesson here.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So he's benching you here and there. He makes the decision your sophomore year to go to the Sugar bowl, which you wanted. The Sun Bowl. Sorry, I said the Sugar bowl earlier. I meant the Sun Ball.

[A]

But it's ironic because it's snowing.

[B]

This is not. Not where you wanted to be.

[A]

No.

[B]

And.

[A]

Or any of us.

[B]

Like, you're just. You're off the rails at this point. You know, I mean, you show up for the game, like, hungover. You don't want to play. Like, this is not going well. Like cracks. Cracks are starting to show, buddy.

[A]

No, it was early in the week, Rich, but I did get. I. Me and tequila never do well, and I was definitely alcohol poisoning. Midweek practice was just painful, and I couldn't even imagine. I was looking down at my buddies who are linebackers, and they're actually doing tackling drills, which I couldn't even imagine with the headache that I had. And I was really stoked to be a quarterback in those moments where I didn't have to hit anybody. But by the time the game rolled around, I was feeling.

[B]

Yeah, feel it. All right. What are your teammates saying to you during this time? They still have your back, or are they starting to think, you know, this guy showing up half cocked?

[A]

No, they. A lot of them were right there with me, so it wasn't just to.

[B]

Work hard, play hard. Yeah. Thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The best ones do. That was. That's what we thought.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's this epic battle between you and the coach at the sun bowl, and this was the fight that was kind of heard across the world, where you guys finally come to loggerheads. Right. What happened?

[A]

He just lost it when he asked if I was gonna go. Go back into the game if we got the ball back, and we didn't even get the ball back.

[B]

He had taken you out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was considering putting you back in.

[A]

And he was fuming. I could feel the heat coming off him. He wanted an answer if I'd go back in. And I pointed to the whole offense that was sitting together, waiting, the linemen and everybody. I'll go back in for them.

[B]

And that just meaning, like, I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for my guys. Yeah. And that lit off.

[A]

Yeah. And it was over.

[B]

There was a little lip reading that was done on. On television because no one could hear what you said, but it was pretty clear what you said, which was some version of, like, this, I'm out of here. And that was it. Like, you were. You were done at usc.

[A]

Yeah. And it sucked. I was bummed. There's no thought of transfer, you know, like, today, guys jump all over. There wasn't even a. I thought of it. I couldn't. Would. Couldn't imagine playing for another college.

[B]

So what did you think at that moment was gonna happen with your future?

[A]

I didn't know.

[B]

Did you think your career with football might be over?

[A]

No.

[B]

Something would come up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's where Marv came in. He stepped right in. Right.

[B]

So Marv. Back to. Marv's not gonna let this. You know, I was like, he's invested too much at this point.

[A]

Right, right, right. All right.

[B]

Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know, it's funny, we don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life. It's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run. Constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them, or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roka has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion. I should say helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions, with everyday frames disappear. Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology. Patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions. And they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil. Super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level. Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20% off your order with code [e-mail] that's R O-K-A dot com. So he calls up his buddies at the Raiders organization and starts to take their temperature about where you might land.

[A]

Fit.

[B]

Yeah, land. If you elected to be drafted. And that's what happened, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at that time, you were the first sophomore to ever elect to go into the NFL draft.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I didn't know it.

[B]

You know, Is that more? Is that more? That's probably more commonplace now, right?

[A]

Probably. I know he was in basketball. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I don't know, I thought. I'm a big fan back in the day of Bernie. Bernie Kosar. I thought he left early, but I think he was. Just had one more year. I think he was a junior. Yeah.

[B]

You mentioned basketball. We sort of glossed over basketball. Like you could have been a pro basketball player. Like in my head, I mean, wasn't George raveling trying to get you to.

[A]

George was. Yeah.

[B]

George has been on the show. Rest in peace, George. He passed away recently, but he was a remarkable person. But he took an interest in you. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was flattering, for sure. My plate was super full. But I would have loved to, you know, probably would have been good for me if I had, I don't know, kept me busy.

[B]

I mean, that's a whole. It's a, you know, similar but different culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who knows what would have happened, right? Anyway, you go into the draft and you go in the first round of the Raiders. I mean, come on, dude.

[A]

Right?

[B]

First round, draft pick, Raiders.

[A]

And then they were predicting 10th.

[B]

Oh, were they?

[A]

Well, at the beginning, yeah. Then it got closer and closer and closer. Like right before he could go in the third, it got as high as the third. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy, man. When you look back on all of this, is it just surreal? Like, your life is so different now. Like, what is your relationship to football and all of that insanity then? Yeah. Like, when you think back, you know, now being who you are right now and you reflect back on, like, this period of your life.

[A]

It'S really. When I think back about it, I'm thinking back about it because I'm around others that I did it with, and then it's really about the relationships. I'm not thinking about any really victorious moments. It was just the guys that I did it with. And usually when I'm thinking about that, I'm laughing with them about it because it was some really, really good times. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I know that with the book, this has put you back into the world in a way that you haven't been in a while. And it's allowed you to come face to face with so many other guys that you played with. Seeing your old teammates and buddies. Yeah, it's been good.

[A]

Yeah, it's been really good. It probably would be really awkward without them doing a few of these book signings. Yeah.

[B]

When you're just meeting the general public. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's awkward for you a little bit. Still.

[B]

Always. What do people ask you when they get to the front of the line and they want their book signed? What are the typical questions?

[A]

Well, they're either Trojan fans or Raider fans, sometimes both. But they're just asking to personalize it. And then they'll have a story maybe, which is cool. Some connection that I've. Because I played a long. Played a long time ago. So whatever. It's cool to hear about what stuck with them all this time, you know, all this time that they motivate them to come out and do this. So it's. Yeah, it's cool to be present with them because I've been running. I've been running for it, from it for a long time.

[B]

Right, right. You can't outrun your past, you know.

[A]

No. You're getting older, too. I can't run at all.

[B]

When it comes back around.

[A]

You can.

[B]

Either continue to try to run away from it. Or you can confront it, you know, and sobriety is about confronting it, finding a way to embrace it. And I'm sure whatever in your mind, you know, you were imagining about what it would be like to see those guys, I'm sure it ended up being, you know, a good experience. Like whatever fear or weird emotions you had around it were probably dissipated quickly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because it was a long time ago, you know, Long time ago. And you were so young.

[A]

Yeah, that's trip. Because when I went back to SC4, they do these salute to Troy kickoff, the season, and they pick a year. And it was our 90 year and went back. But you get to see the players without all the armor on the current players. And it was just astound. I was.

[B]

Because you're like, oh, you guys are babies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, because you see them, of course, in Saturday and they look like warriors, you know, with all their gear. But when you see them stripped of it, it's like, I was like, I really blew me away that I was just a kid in a. In a big arena.

[B]

Yeah. So you end up. You end up at the Raiders. This is just. Just gasoline on the fire. I like the bad boy culture. The whole thing. You slide right into that and it almost gives you permission to be. To really, you know, put your foot down on the accelerator with all the crazy behavior. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because all my friends at SC are 20 miles away. I'm in Manhattan beach practicing. Right. You know, in El Segundo right there. And Saturdays the Trojans are playing, and then Sundays I'm playing. It was just a. It was a huge party. Yeah.

[B]

So the volume gets turned on the drugs pretty quickly. And, you know, because of proximity to Hollywood, you start finding yourself in unique situations. Like you're hanging out with Charlie Sheen at his house.

[A]

They usually came from. Because probably my most enjoyable thing to do at that time and still is go to shows and music concerts.

[B]

Yeah. You were in a band in high school, right?

[A]

Well, no, later, after the Raiders.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[A]

Scurvy.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Saw that footage.

[A]

I just. So I went to a lot of concerts and a lot of backstages because.

[B]

Doors are swinging wide open value at this point. Yeah.

[A]

But I really enjoy seeing live music and I met a lot of people at these live music venues. Yeah. So it was quite the experience, for sure.

[B]

Have you watched the Charlie Sheen Netflix documentary?

[A]

No. Should I?

[B]

Oh, you should. Yeah. I think you should watch it. Yeah. I mean, it's basically, you know, his version of. Of Your story. Yeah. And he's sort of telling it. I mean, he's very different from you, but, you know, he's pretty transparent about, like, everything that happened. And since you were there with him, you know, I don't know, maybe I thought maybe you'd take an interest in it. I don't know. But you're also hanging out with Flea. He's not a partier.

[A]

Oh, no. He's a basketball player.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we played.

[B]

So you weren't without some good influences.

[A]

Yeah, no, no. Flea was just a bro. Fine.

[B]

Was there anyone around you who is trying to, you know, giving you the hard feedback and trying to reel you in?

[A]

Oh, throughout for sure.

[B]

But nobody who could penetrate your thick skull?

[A]

No.

[B]

I know. Marcus Allen tried, right?

[A]

Yep. Howie and those guys, you just couldn't hear it? No, there was no hearing it. I was on a different frequency.

[B]

And did the, you know, the consequences are starting to, you know, rack up a little bit. Is that weighing on you or did you not care? It didn't matter.

[A]

I was welcoming the hammer coming down.

[B]

Yeah. This is the self destructive streak on some level. Like, you wanted it to all cave in on you, didn't you? Because you wanted out.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't want to quit.

[B]

Yeah, you didn't want to quit, but you desperately wanted out of this situation. Through success. You created this insane prison that you locked yourself in. Right.

[A]

Because at the height of it, I couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand me or what I did. I wanted so out.

[B]

Tell me more about that.

[A]

Oh, it was just. It felt so fake, you know, because.

[B]

You were playing a character.

[A]

Yeah. And the payoff wasn't there because I, I was only. What is it? On a Sunday? You're only out there for an hour and a half or something.

[B]

Yeah. Howie makes that point in the 30 for 30. He's like, you know, people think of. They look at these athletes and they think they're whole. Like, they just see them perform and they think that's their whole life. And it's like, you know, your life, your football life is. And your life life is this. Right. And, you know, most of your life is happening, you know, you know, like off camera. But where is the love of the game in all of this? Had you, had you lost that or were you still able to hold on to that in the midst of wanting out so badly?

[A]

Oh, I always will love it. I mean it. Definitely.

[B]

You still love it?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, I do. Even times when I don't want my. Want to like it or love it. I don't. Because what is taken from people.

[B]

But because of CTE 100.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's real.

[B]

How many of your teammates suffer from that?

[A]

Well, I've lost more than five off my USC team. Yeah. And closest.

[B]

Closest friend, five guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Played with at USC college football have passed away. What about the Raiders guys?

[A]

The numbers are. People just don't know, you know, they don't want to broadcast that. Yeah. So it was having that. This going on in my life, losing friends and my son wanting to play tackle football.

[B]

Right. Life is rigged, you know, it's like, you know, God. God's like, right. All right, here you go. What are you gonna do with this one? You know, all you want to do is get away from football, and your son just can't wait to play. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, and it was hard, but I just said, you're not playing until high school tackle, you know, because I had a great flag experience of my own, and he ended up having one of his own too, which was cool, but I was unsure about this no contact thing. And how would he respond to it, not having the experience. And he's doing fine.

[B]

Yeah. How old is he now?

[A]

16. Yeah, he's a sophomore, so he's right in the middle of it and.

[B]

But letting him have a childhood.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, it's as much as football has given me, it's taken me literally around the world. Yeah. It's violent as fuck and people are dying.

[B]

Yeah. What is the difference between how we perceive it, watching it on television, and what it's like when you're watching on the field? Like, what does the average person, like myself not understand about, like, how insane or intense it is when you're adrenaline.

[A]

Is, like, coursing through my veins. Like, I'm in a fight every Saturday or, like Friday, whatever day you're playing, and it's a feeling like it's life or death. And that is exciting, but it's scary. It's hell, too. And. And knowing that, for me, in my experience, that every 11 guys, their whole objective is to knock me out of the game. And they're all faster than me.

[B]

Yeah. I better figure you're a big guy, but you're not big like those guys.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. When people see. Do see me, they think, God, you look. You look small. You look smaller. Because I was around huge, huge men, but when they're not around, I'm a pretty big dude.

[B]

When you were there, what was the culture around performance enhancing drugs? I mean, obviously we Know, somebody gets injured, they go into the locker room, they go to get cortisone shot and who knows what else. But was that going on also when you were there?

[A]

The in game shots?

[B]

Just performance enhancing drugs in general, like steroid use, you know, like that?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that was going on.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of going on all over the place. Right.

[A]

It's like drugs were going on, but they had their substance abuse policy.

[B]

Right. There's the lip service and then there's the reality. Right. Is it still that way?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

What is your connection to professional football now? Do you watch it? Are you connected to any of the players or the coaches? You're living in Hawaii, living your best life.

[A]

It's when I come back here, I'll watch. But I'm a college football guy. I always have been. My dad told me that when I asked him, you know, what was, he said, college football. And I didn't know then why until I had my experience and that was my experience that it's just more.

[B]

Because it's a little more pure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because in pro. These guys are getting transferred all the time. They're worried about job security. Like, the fans are more allegiant to the team than the players are a lot of times. Because it's a job. Right? Yeah.

[A]

And very few guys stay with one team their whole career. Right.

[B]

So you're on the Raiders. And to me, the most important part of this experience is the 1992 Giants game. This is, you know, the inflection point, as far as I can see it, in terms of your relationship with football. Because your father had always joked that, you know, well, it's not like you're playing the Giants, like your whole life, it's not like you're playing the Giants. This was a recurring, like, joke. Right? Right. And then you call him and you're like, guess what?

[A]

We're playing the Giants.

[B]

Which is like the whole dream realized. Right. Like the arc of this whole experience with Marv, your dad, had come to fruition and here you are and you were going to be the starting quarterback for the Raiders going up against the New York Giants.

[A]

But looking back on it, when he was saying that to me, it did make me feel a little, a little bit, a little better knowing I wasn't playing the New York Giants, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It kind of brought.

[B]

But then at the same time, it makes the Giants seem like, you know, like this is, you know, they're the absolute apex of, you know, the whole.

[A]

Thing because they had LT Still.

[B]

Lt was playing by.

[A]

Yes. And I got to have him on my left side because most quarterbacks are right handed. They want him on their blind side. Me being left, I got. I got to see him all the way back. Not that you want to keep an eye on him, but you definitely want to keep an eye on him.

[B]

Yeah. So you win this game. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You win this game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And here's what I'm getting at. Your dad finally gives it up for you, and he's like, I'm so proud of you. Like, you finally get the one thing that you've wanted your entire life, which is just for your dad, to look you in the eye and say, I'm proud of you.

[A]

Mean it. Yeah.

[B]

And mean it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you've exceeded all my expectations. And I just.

[B]

And you got it.

[A]

Yeah, I was proud.

[B]

And you know what? And once you got it, you're done. Like, football's over. There's no mountain higher to climb. It wouldn't matter if you won the super bowl five times in a row, because that's not what was motivating you. Your entire motivation was premised upon getting your father's approval. And most people who have that archetype of a father figure never get it.

[A]

It right.

[B]

Like, you did get it right, but as soon as you got it, you, like, mentally tapped out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, a switch was flicked at that point, and, yeah, you know, like, so that was it for you and the Raiders. But, you know, you dabble here and there in football, you know, over the coming years, but, you know, it's not the same.

[A]

No.

[B]

Because that was your source of motivation all along. So when you say, like, oh, I was internally motivated, or, you know, I, you know, I had a championship mindset, like, I'm sure you did on some level. But the under, like, the foundation of the entire thing was literally just to get your dad to acknowledge that he loved you, you know, which is insane. Like, that is the human condition, the whole deal. That's the whole bag.

[A]

Who can relate with that? Rich?

[B]

Right?

[A]

So a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is where I think everybody or a lot of people can find their way into your story, because they may not know what it's like to be a championship athlete, but a lot of people out there are operating out in the world unconscious of just how many of the decisions they're making are based upon just getting that kind of validation or approval, whether from a parent or somebody else in their life. And all of that. That wiring gets formed when you're A young child. Right. And it just gets locked in. And to me, you can't talk about your addiction story without addressing, you know, it was trauma. You know, it was early childhood trauma that you suffered from. And that's a loaded word that maybe might be challenging for you to hear because there is so much love for your dad. But it is true that your dad raised you in a certain way that wired you in that way and, you know, set the stage for this identity crisis of, like, not really knowing who you were and really operating entirely for the purpose of, like, getting his approval, you know, and then getting it and, like, just the tap out, you know, it's amazing that you kept kind of going back to the well in the AFL and like, you know, all these other kind of, like, iterations of professional football, some of which were motivated by just getting a paycheck, but you couldn't quite cut the ties. You know, you probably should have just like, then, back then being like, okay, I'm gonna just. I'm gonna become a painter now.

[A]

Yeah. I definitely didn't jump into, you know, what sparked that was my son Baron being born. I had this fire just ignite inside me that I need to provide. And I was scrubbing the bottom of boats in the harbor. I was doing whatever I could. And Baron's mom said, well, you love to paint. That's when it started. And I knew. I mean, I only took one. One semester of painting in college, but I had been doodling and creating my whole life, and I didn't even know it was possible to actually be, like, a professional artist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Until I met a friend who was. And shattered that belief, you know, because my dad was an amazing artist.

[B]

Well, this is the other interesting wrinkle is that your dad is, at heart, an artist also, and grew up in a time when maybe that was just never a possibility for a guy like that, especially if you had prowess in these other areas.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

[B]

And that becomes this way of reconnecting with him later in life. It's just really. It's this beautiful kind of full circle thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think short of Marv and football, like, yeah, you love sports. Yeah. You're good at it. But you are this, like, sensitive, artistic kid. You always have that at the core.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's why playing that role as a quarterback and a leader, it felt so. It was so hard.

[B]

Cause you're like, I'm living somebody else's life. Like, I can do this because I'm talented and I trust trained really hard. And I was raised to do it. But it's so crazy because it was never who you were and you still were better at it than everyone else, right?

[A]

Because I really rather just have been a receiver, not open my mouth ever. Maybe catch a couple touchdowns here and there, win a game.

[B]

But yeah, that's the shyness. You like the game, but not the attention.

[A]

Yes, but I'd love to compete.

[B]

What is your relationship with competitiveness now?

[A]

It's changed. I had to look at it, said, is it worth not even being able to finish a pickup basketball game with my friends? No. And really, is it really good for me? No. I have to keep saying into my head when I'm doing things, no matter what it is, what game it is. Rich. I'm saying it doesn't matter who wins. It doesn't matter who wins.

[B]

So can you play pick up basketball and just enjoy it?

[A]

Yes, completely. But there was a time where I had to win, but that came from somewhere else. I don't know if I had this competitive drive, like naturally. Yeah. Is it genetic? I think some of it is, but it was definitely environmental. For me, there was only one, one, one way.

[B]

And then as an artist, are you competitive with yourself? Like, what is the, what is the internal drive? Is it just the joy of, you know, rendering a creative idea into reality or, you know, what motivates you in that role?

[A]

You know, paint is the way that I normally express myself, but it could be with any music and what have you. But with painting, I knew 16 years ago when I started this deal that I had to do it. There was no shortcuts. I got to do it every day. And I did not for the first five years. I did it every day. And you can't spend the time. So the message is, you can't spend the time that it takes. If you don't love it or you're passionate about it, there's just no way. So let's pick what we're passionate about and do it because there's no shortcuts. And the more I do it, the more I learn. And I can paint and paint and paint. I'm addicted to color today. It's just a, you know, I'm blown away by it. The more I see, the more art I see, the better. I'm inspired by other artists. And it's who I am and who I've always been is an artist.

[B]

Who are the artists that inspire you kids?

[A]

You know, I see it in early, like pre kindergarten, kindergarten age.

[B]

It's just before the internal self Judgment kicks in.

[A]

Exactly. And that's what I deal with on a regular basis, is the critics. Oh, my God. Well, the critic ruined so many good ideas.

[B]

You can just get back to that childlike wonder where you're not judging yourself. You can be free. Like, this is all a journey towards trying to find freedom for yourself, unburdened by expectations and all of the things that other people have layered on top of you. People that don't understand addiction might be confused as to why after you got your dad's approval, you know, it's like, it's all good. You keep using. Like, you can't stop using. It gets worse and worse and worse. How many times did you go to rehab? How many times did you try to get sober? How many times have you been arrested? And, you know, rather than like, figuring it out, you're like riding around on a skateboard, you know, in Newport beach, and everyone's staring at you like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Like, what happened? He blew it. He had the golden opportunity that anybody would dream of and he just threw it away. And they can't understand the internal conflict that you're trying to work out, which is that you didn't want any of this to begin with, and you're trying to figure out who you are and nobody will let you do that. And while you're doing this inelegantly, you're getting locked up and all kinds of chaos is happening. You have to deal with the added burden of everybody judging you in a mean spirited way. Like people looking like you say in the documentary, they looked at you with a level of disgust that they wouldn't if it was just a homeless person. Right. There's this added layer of, like, because you had so much and you decided to do what you did, it's unforgivable. And so the shame and the guilt that you're also trying to, like, work out for yourself, like, it's in the public eye the entire time. I can't imagine how painful that must have been for you.

[A]

I think about it, like, for my mom. Yes. And family and friends, it's just. It's just added the cherry on top of, like, how does it get any worse? Well, it gets worse when everybody knows, I guess. Meaning that it's headlines or what have you and really looking and seeing and hearing and being in so many situations with people that are trying to change their lives. Life, it's this. It's the same. Even though everybody, not. Not even everybody knows, just because it's on the news or the paper about me. The feeling that I have is the exact same as this person. It's the, it's, it's the hopelessness. It's like that's just piling on, you know, the damage, the damage is really, you know, the, the brunt of the feel you've already felt. All the added stuff is just stuff, if that makes any sense.

[B]

Yeah, but the baggage is stacked high.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Was there a rock bottom moment?

[A]

There was still not one that stands out.

[B]

Yeah, there isn't one specific one because I mean, I mean your story of recovery is one of relapse and that, that, that comes with its own, you know, kind of recipe for shame and self defeatism. Like, how many times can you do this and say this time it's going to be different only to fail and have to go, you know, I mean, each successive relapse becoming more of a psychic burden than the one that preceded it, that, that inevitably ends in some level of, of, of like hopelessness. Like maybe you're never going to be able to crack the code and figure this out.

[A]

Right. And I, I completely feel that because of my experience with getting knocked down, like really getting knocked down and just getting back up, that's what I do. I continue to keep trying. There's, from my perspective, what, really, what else can I do? I'm not going to just lay down and just take it.

[B]

Yeah, but that sets up the conflict between self will and surrender.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

Because the key to this prison that you locked yourself in is in your front pocket all along. And the freedom, the liberation, the childlike wonder, you know, liberated from all of the noise is available to you. You just have to make this decision to let go of it all. But as a very willful person who understands hard work and discipline and knows that when you apply yourself to a certain task or goal that you're going to be able to achieve it. That's a foreign language.

[A]

I pulled up, I was watching John, John Florence with you, and it was surrender. And he talked about letting go. Wow. It's so counterintuitive, especially for someone like you said, who's been. I don't like the word programmed, but been taught, you know, the harder we.

[B]

Just push hard, force it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That's how we make things happen. But in all reality, it's the opposite. And I know it, I know it more than anything through sports and through art, which is beautiful to me because the best things in my best experiences are when I'm not thinking about. I'm not overthinking. I'm just locked into what's going on, and I'm operating from here. I can't go wrong when I'm doing that.

[B]

Yeah. There is some shared DNA between art and athleticism in that. When you're painting, you know, a big part of it is getting out of the way.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that you can be this open channel, fucking all of it. And when you're, you know, when you take the snap, if you're thinking about what you're gonna do, you're toast. Right. Like, you have to be in the moment. And, you know, like, when Jon Jon's talking about, you know, how do I want to feel in this moment so I can just. I can express myself the best on this wave. It's about getting out of the way. He's like, I know know how to surf.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was like, I don't have to think about. If I start to have think about it, like. And if you're thinking about, like, where are my receivers or what am I doing with my feet, you know, you're not going to be able to execute, but you do need to be able to put in the work to get to that point. Right. So it is this yin yang kind of balance. But the painting is like the portal into this recovery mindset because you do have to let go. It's different. Like, you can't force a painting.

[A]

I've tried.

[B]

You train like you want to be, you know, good at your craft, but, you know, because it's such a gentle and fragile form of expression, the only way you're going to be able to do your best work is to kind of surrender over to something greater than yourself. And to me, that feels instructive, you know, for your relationship with sobriety and.

[A]

Also not being tied to the outcome, because I like to do actions, and it's subjective.

[B]

There's no scorecard. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder. So your relationship with, like, did you do a good job or is it successful? Is completely different than it is in sports.

[A]

But I'm also still battling with. I'm performing at times, you know, because that one was.

[B]

Is this a true expression of you or is this a performance? Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of it's performance, of course, where I come from, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I want to get to that place that you're talking about that isn't affected because I know it's there because it comes out in little so meaning.

[B]

I want to be a great artist. And the only way to be a great artist is to create great works of art. But at the same time, I want everybody to know that I'm an artist and that I'm good at this, so I can have the gallery show and have people show up and recognize that I'm not just a football player.

[A]

Well, I'm dealing with a lot of very successful master artists back in the day warned against having all your eggs in one basket, meaning having your art, your way of making a living is futuristic. And I see why. Completely.

[B]

Yeah. Because then you're going to make artistic decisions based upon economics. Are you making a living as an artist? Is that you are. I mean, that's incredible.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Very few people can say that.

[A]

Right. My goal. I've got goals in my life, and a big one is not have to rely on my art because I just wouldn't see what happens because I feel there's.

[B]

It's back to the freedom thing. Being. Trying to find a way to be free.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's where I want to try to get to.

[B]

The opening quote of the book. You say this book is an act of self love after decades of self defiance, which is. I mean, you're kind of dropping the hammer like before, you know, anyone even gets into it.

[A]

You can stop, like right after that thing.

[B]

It kind of says it all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you've got to find a way to love yourself in order to find freedom and peace. And you had outsourced your source of love to all of these externalities, these performance metrics, and then you had to endure the lack of love from the public and find your way forward, find out who you are, what you stand for, what you care about, what your values are. You know, who is Todd Marinovich? And how can you love this person who, like all humans, is flawed and has made mistakes that, you know, people have a lot of opinions about? Can you feel that? I mean, do you feel. Are you able to have compassion for yourself?

[A]

I'm getting. I'm improved. There's progress for sure. I'm still a long way to go. Yeah.

[B]

What just came up in your mind?

[A]

Because the first I was hearing the hearing people say, be gentle with yourself, and that one just was like, what the.

[B]

Like, enraging.

[A]

Yeah. What? And I can do that in spurts, you know, but at first, holy. I didn't realize how unkind and violent, you know, I had been to me.

[B]

You know, what does that internal monologue sound like? Oh, you had to like, say it out loud.

[A]

It's just. Just tearing you down, trying to bring doubt. And that's. That's. Doubt is a doubt creeps in. It's crept in my whole life through my playing to art. I think it's part of learning to deal with that because I think it will always be something that can rear its head. Man, it can be debilitating, but you.

[B]

Can find those moments of giving yourself that grace.

[A]

Yeah. And it's through countless hours and days lost to beating oneself up. You know, I know you've done it. And any person struggling with any kind of addiction has done it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if this is helpful, but when I. I look at you and I think about your story, I just see this little kid who wants to be loved and wants his dad to love him and is gonna do all these things to get it. This sensitive, artistic kid who wants to be on the beach and paint and run around, you know, who happens to be gifted and has the ability to kind of live up to his father's expectations but. But suffered mightily only because nobody ever taught him how to love himself. You know, he just. He didn't have his emotional needs met as a young person. Don't you think that? And his suffering is a consequence of that? And when I think of you as a young boy, like, maybe that's a pathway into, you know, finding a way to be softer with yourself. Like, you did everything you had to do to survive, and you did survive an insane situation. And at the same time, like, struggles with maintaining long term sobriety. Somebody can say to you, like, you have to be like, you're just a garden variety drug addict and alcoholic. Like, you have to be a worker among workers. And most people, most addicts would be like, well, you don't understand how complicated people my life is and my problems are unique, but in your case, they kind of fucking are. Because your life is so different. Right. So it's very easy for you to say you don't understand. You know, and obviously that works as a. That becomes a barrier to you being able to like, hear what you need to hear to grab onto the solution.

[A]

I've heard that. Yeah. That maybe you're not ready.

[B]

Right. Well, yeah. You, Scott, and do a little more research. Yeah. How's the research going?

[A]

Yeah. No, thank you.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have like a circle of sober people that you count on that keep you in check?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah. Without.

[B]

Call you on your.

[A]

Your. Yeah, I gotta see people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They gotta Know what I'm doing. Otherwise, it's all isolation. And that's the thing. What's tricky, Painting for a living.

[B]

It's pretty. Isolation is not the friend of the addict and the alcoholic. No. So I'd be lying if I didn't say that concerns me a little bit about you living in the middle of nowhere, Hawaii. You know what I mean? Is this an alcoholic decision or is this a way of. Of finding yourself? And maybe it's both. You know.

[A]

It'S been an amazing journey so far.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The other thing I think about when I think about your story is the juxtaposition of it on our current culture, which seems to have an obsession with self optimization, you know, right now, like, whether it's wearable devices or morning routines or certain types of fitness protocols, like, everybody's trying to dial shit up and crack the code to how to be a perfect human in every regard. And this is something you know, a little bit about, you know, and you're reporting back from the front lines to say, yeah, maybe this isn't the way to go. Do you notice that, like, I don't know what your relationship is with, like, the Internet and, like, you know, like, oh, I noticed podcasts and stuff like that, but there's like a whole culture out there of, like, you know, this is, you know, if you take these supplements or you eat this certain way, or here is the, you know, perfect workout routine, and here's how you should start your day. Like, this is your entire childhood. Right. Like, you've done the research here, and.

[A]

There'S more to this whole game of life.

[B]

So what? Yeah, like, what do you. What do you want to say to the self optimization obsessed person?

[A]

Well, mine was more directed at the health side.

[B]

Yeah. Also, it was being imposed upon you. Right.

[A]

I was just following along, taking orders. Yeah, completely. But I was seeing results. That's why it became easier to suit up and show up every day, because I was getting actual good things started happening in my life.

[B]

It's not that any of those things aren't in somebody's self interest to figure out and practice. It's the out of balance relationship with all of it.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And I'm seeking balance. You hit it on the head, Rich. I mean, I'm so all or nothing. And, yeah, shit's burning up back here.

[B]

Are you seeking balance? Are you trying to achieve balance, or are you trying to figure out how to make peace with your extreme disposition? You know what I mean? No, because I think about this a Lot. This aspiration to have everything in your life in balance is kind of of a fool's errand, I think. You know, the idea that you're one day going to achieve that, I mean, obviously you have to have things in check.

[A]

Yeah. But none.

[B]

But also, you know, if you're in search of like, your true self, like, you are wired to be extreme. It's just that how do you reel that in or channel it in the direction of healthy things and, you know, with it with a level of like, self understanding, you know what I mean? Like. Like you're never gonna be a guy who's just like, balanced, you know, it's just not gonna happen. You know, like. Sorry, you're right. But you gotta work with what you have and like, make like, not be hard on yourself because you can't be as balanced as, like, your buddy who has a very different history.

[A]

True. Yeah. I'm definitely wired for excitement. We'll call it adrenaline.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because that was flooding through the veins early. It's a juggling act, you know, owning your own business, which is my art. And you know, kids, relationships. See, I'm learning this whole thing with relationships, I got. I had no real instruction on that.

[B]

So I'm still learning. Yeah. How's that going?

[A]

You know, I'm not in a relationship at the moment and I'm enjoying that. What I found through recovery is I really love people and I'm in fear of people. You know, I'm in fear most of the time. Most of the time.

[B]

When you put this book out, were you afraid of how people would receive you?

[A]

No, I was over that because I went through a long bout with just. People are going to say what they're going to say. Yeah. That doesn't. I did it for me. Yeah.

[B]

In this extreme life that you've lived, what are the lessons that you've come away with that you want people who read your book or who are listening or watching right now to. To understand? Like, what have you learned about life that you want to share, that we're all the same.

[A]

And I've. Because of my experience, I've. It just proves to me it's like, glaring that sports helped me with. It doesn't matter. The skin color. I. I didn't see it in sports. There was no. It was just, if you're gonna, you know, do your. Be my guy, it doesn't matter. And so without that, I couldn't have gotten to the point of. And then my experience with addiction, it doesn't matter. The alcoholic or the freaking heroin. There's no difference there. And in everything that we do, we're trying to pull apart and be grouped. Grouped to create the differences. And it's that we are all, you know, the same. And people. I felt. I always felt uncomfortable in the situations of autographs and make it seem like I'm different because you're seeking this and people are caught up in the whole celebrity thing. And there's no difference in any of it. Because I can share. When I understand that and can feel that, then I can be authentic with everybody. I'm not trying to. Trying to gain anything, you know, with people. And my life is good like that right now. I just. It's simple. It's a real simple. I live a simple life.

[B]

What can you say about perfectionism?

[A]

Oh, my goodness. You know what I heard growing up? Not practice makes perfect. Perfect. Practice makes perfect. And that is just so insane.

[B]

Say more. Did you just hear what I said, though? Isn't that just.

[A]

It's taking something and just. And Marv just loved that quote. And that's just not okay.

[B]

Perfection is a mirage. It's impossible. And practice is where you're supposed to work on your weaknesses and try things where you make. It's intended for imperfection.

[A]

Cause what I've learned, especially in art, is my mistakes are my best shit sometimes.

[B]

Like what?

[A]

Surprising. Like, I didn't intend for that to happen. And in athletics, I. You know, the losses, I learned stuff. And those losses, the wins. It was the losses. It was the pain. It was what I didn't want to experience. Again, that got me hyper focused. Yeah.

[B]

I think perfectionism also, you know, if you're an artist or a creative person that clenches you up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prevents you from ever completing work or showing it because you're so caught up in how it's going to be perceived. I mean, you kind of got over that. You're, like, done with how you're perceived. Like you lived a whole life of that, which puts you in a position to create a little bit more freely without the, you know, the chorus of whatever people are going to think about what you're creating. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if I'm.

[B]

Is that true or not. I just projected that on you.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not there yet.

[B]

You're still human. One of the other lessons that you talk about near the end of the book is this idea that discipline without compassion is cruelty.

[A]

Yeah. You know what? I am not a disciplinarian in. And I found that through my experience with my dogs that I've had and my children, I need work in that area.

[B]

Well, it's a reaction to being over disciplined as a young person. Your pendulum, it just has to swing the other way. It has to, yeah. Does that make you soft with your kids too?

[A]

I guess. I don't know. I tried. I don't try to, you know, I. We have all these things. What am I supposed to. How is the dad supposed to. Supposed to act in this? But I just, Yeah, I had a hard time disciplining discipline. Still disciplining, you know, it's, it's not my greatest suit. And life will do that. Yeah.

[B]

For them, the other big one is realizing that vulnerability is strength. As this quarterback, superstar athlete going out on the field, you can't show any vulnerability. You gotta take your punches and never evoke any kind of weakness. And yet with the most important things in life, including sobriety, the only way to get and maintain sobriety is by having an open relationship with vulnerability, letting people in, being honest, which isn't easy.

[A]

I think that's why I get to practice these things because otherwise I just don't show up and I'm vulnerable, you know. But I found real connection, like, true. What I'm seeking, because that's really what I'm seeking all these years is a.

[B]

Connection, you know, I mean, that's all. Humans want that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think the addict in particular, like that's what they're, they're just, they're looking for it in the wrong places. But ultimately they feel disconnected, they're trying to feel connected. They're using substances to do it. But it's really that sense of me too, feeling other than, or whatever, where you feel like you're not, you know, you're not a part of that is driving that compulsion and, and finding a way to connect with people, obviously is the antidote to that part of the antidote. But hard when you're a shy kid.

[A]

Super hard. Like, my head's screaming at me, put down your hand. Don't. You know, But I've gotten better. Like that's what I'm saying. You know, there's progress here. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if you've ever gone back and watched that 30 for 30.

[A]

Oh, I have.

[B]

Oh, you have? Yeah. So that was like 15 years ago, right?

[A]

15 years ago.

[B]

So I can't help but wonder, like when you look back at you then sharing your story, do you like it? Like, was that guy being honest? Like, is there, Are you. Have you evolved or changed since then? If you had to do it again. Would you. Would you? Like, what is he saying? He's full of shit there. Like, is he painting a rosy picture? Like, what is the difference between you now and that guy 15 years ago telling the story? Because there's a lot of miles on the chassis since then, and you know what?

[A]

We've been shooting this whole time.

[B]

Oh, really? So there's gonna be. There's another one. Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. 12 years in the making.

[B]

Like a documentary or a 30 for, like, in what form?

[A]

Episodia.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like a limited series.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting, because that's when I met Sean was right when I finished the 30 for 30 and he started filming right after that. Oh, that's wild. Yeah.

[B]

So what is the. Like, if you had to put your finger on Todd now versus Todd, like, when you see that guy 15 years ago sharing his story, like, what. What comes up for you or what's changed?

[A]

I'm getting older.

[B]

Yeah. Well, other than the obvious. Dude, come on. Like, were you being honest then? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. As honest as I knew.

[B]

I mean, it felt like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it felt like it. You weren't done yet, though?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. Gosh. It had just begun, this recovery. It's just. I'm going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause, you know. Well, my whole life I've trained for a season or an event. It's always. I'm getting ready for.

[B]

There's a destination.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And with recovery, I've always. It's not a race, Todd. And I come out just, you know, wanting to get well, and nothing's wrong with that, but my pattern has been. It's. It's what you. You know, a marathon or three marathons. It's more than I could even.

[B]

You're just. No, you're never not running. It's like it's. There is no. It's not a race, but, you know, you're still in it, and it's never over. Yeah.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

That's. I haven't heard that. That nails it.

[B]

What is it that you're working on now that's coming up. Up for you, like, in your. In your recovery program?

[A]

When things get busy like they are, I start believing that I know best.

[B]

You're in control.

[A]

And it's so cut. I know, I know.

[B]

I mean, that's. That's an intoxicant.

[A]

Yeah. And so these are. It's dangerous when I'm getting any type of that. A voice, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For real.

[B]

So what do you do to make sure that you're not letting that go to your ego too much.

[A]

Help, somebody. And there's so much to do. Where I live, it's. It's endless in that, you know, area.

[B]

Is that part of the appeal for you? The area to that the people and the opportunity for you to be of service?

[A]

Yeah, it's just I've fallen in love with the people and where they come from. A lifer there.

[B]

What is the message that you want to share to the person out there who is. Is in it right now? Like, in the throes?

[A]

There's a way out.

[B]

Feel stuck.

[A]

That's the cool thing about it. There is a way out, you know, but you're not gonna like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's the deal. There is a way out.

[B]

What's that? What's the first step? What's the suggestion? Understand?

[A]

Oh, it's the surrender. I can't do it. I can't do this. And I've been at that. I've been there. And it's a beautiful thing when you're out of ideas. Cause that's where everything goes wrong. I come up with an idea in between the years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I have. Like you said, do I have people in my life? Yes, I do. And I bounce things off them. Is this. How does this sound? And it's check your decisions. It's really important for me to do that, because it sounds good in here until I say it. And then I even go, whoa.

[B]

I'm trying to imagine what it's like inside your head. Cause I just. That's why I paused. So I'm thinking, oh, well, this. When this guy's on the football field, granted, long time ago, but you're a guy who. Who could trust your instincts. Like, your instincts were spot on. Right. And nobody had instincts like you. The coach didn't even have the instincts that you had. And so that's gonna obviously, like, fuel your ego. Like, I'm in charge. I know what to do. But then later in life, life's off the rails. Like, maybe my instincts aren't so good. You know, I've made all these bad choices. Can I trust my thinking? Can I trust my decisions? And the contrast between having this insane instinct for what to do as an athlete versus your inability to have the right instinct when it comes to making, like, life decisions, you know? Yes.

[A]

100%.

[B]

All of which you can then use to form the argument that you're different than everyone else. And, like, nobody understands your problems.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

This is the pretzel of the Mind when it comes to the mental gymnastics of trying to get your head around, like, the tools of recovery.

[A]

And I saw a bumper sticker once that said, like, a living nightmare is believing what you think. And I just went, whoa, whoa. Because I do that just because I think it. I think it's true. That's. It's not always true. Yeah, most of the time it's not.

[B]

There is help out there. There is hope.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[B]

You get people messaging you on social media, hey, what do I do? My answer is always the same. And it's like, go to a meeting. It's like, isn't it the obvious that, like, why don't you. Well, why don't you go to an AA meeting and, you know, like, set aside whatever your ideas are, and it's like, has this never occurred to this person, or they. They just need somebody to, like, tell them to do it? I don't know.

[A]

You know, and especially, well, since I've been in Hawaii, a lot of people don't even know that it even exists.

[B]

Which.

[A]

Which is crazy to me because I. I was forced to go when I was 21. But, yeah, even in today's world, people don't know recovery exists, which I'm here to say, yes, it exists all over the world.

[B]

That's why I think your message is vital and so important. It's the extreme aspects of your life that make it titillating or interesting to people. But the core message of what you're trying to convey is that there is help available, and no matter how far down down the path you've gone, that there is another way and there is help. I mean, by opening the book with you injecting your jugular vein with, like. I mean, it's like, that's. You know, that's the most extreme case of drug addiction you're gonna come across. It's incredibly powerful. And if you could come back from that and build a life and have a relationship with your kids and pursue a career doing something that you love, like, that's incredibly inspirational, and it has nothing to do with football or being an athlete, and it's cool, man. I'm glad you wrote the book. It's an act of public service. There are a lot of people out there suffering in silence, so I'm always trying to model a path out of that. And that's why I've chosen to be so open in how I speak about these issues, because shame is part of the disease, and it keeps us stuck and quiet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And small. And it's Pernicious, man. You know, shame's at the root of all of it. And, you know, I know shame is something you're deeply acquainted with, and it's a killer.

[A]

Absolutely. As much as I sometimes cringe at either doing an interview or speaking, I've, you know, spoken in a lot of high schools over the years. It's my duty, from what I've lived through, to share my experience 100%. And, you know, I hope I can connect with one, you know, because I. I do know what. What it's like.

[B]

It's a very human and relatable story in that you're essentially trying to find yourself. And isn't that.

[A]

I'm still trying.

[B]

Yeah. Like we're all doing.

[A]

Yeah, you're in the.

[B]

The ultramarathon. Right. And, you know, we live in an insane world and we're all trying to reclaim our humanity, you know, amidst all of these distortions that lead us astray and hijack our decision making and, you know, distract us and addict us in various ways. And, you know, because your story is so palpable, it has the power to really impact people in a. In a potent way. And so thanks for writing it and thank you. Thanks for being here today, dude.

[A]

Thanks, Rich.

[B]

I appreciate it, man.

[A]

I enjoyed it.

[B]

All right, everybody, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's Episode page at Richmond, where you will find the entire podcast archive, as well as my books, Finding Ultra, the Voicing Change series, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free. Actually, all you got to do is subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review or drop a comment. Sharing your show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, course awesome as well, and extremely helpful. So thank you in advance for that. In addition, I'd like to thank all of our amazing sponsors, without whom this show just would not be possible, or at least, you know, not free. To check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page. Rich roll.com today's show is produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo, along with associate producer Desmond Lowe. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake, content management by Shayna Savoy, copywriting by Ben Prior, and of course, our theme music, as always, was created all the way back in 2012 by my stepsons Tyler and Trapper Pyatta, along with her cousin Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, and I'll see you back here soon. Peace Plants.