← The Rich Roll Podcast
The Rich Roll Podcast
You Are Already Enough: Maria Shriver On Finding Your Voice, Healing After Heartbreak, Brain Health Advocacy, & The Power Of Self-Acceptance
01:53:57
https://www.richroll.com/podcast/maria-shriver-900/
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- [00:01]
Rich Roll
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- [03:03]
Maria Shriver
I thought I would feel enough. When I won an Emmy, I thought I would feel enough. The first time I got a book out and it was on the New York Times bestseller list, I didn't understand that that was the enough. And five minutes later that enough was gone.
- [03:18]
Rich Roll
If there's one thing I've Learned over my 58 years, most people are out there just trying to do their best with what they've got. And everybody is on their own journey. No matter who you are, no matter how rich or famous or powerful or respected or even revered, nobody gets a pass on life. We all have our pain, our challenges, our fears, our regrets. And I think on some level at least, we're all on a path of self discovery, being human. We're just all in this constant process of figuring out who we are, where we stand and how to be more authentically ourselves amidst the expectations of others so that we can be more comfortable in our own skin. Remember what it was like to feel joy and to give and receive love. And I gotta say, just because your name is Maria Shriver does not mean that you get a pass.
- [04:15]
Maria Shriver
You don't ever really know what's gonna happen today. You don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. And you can live in that space or you can just live. Your purpose is you're here. I'm a big believer in that. And it changes as we move move forward in life.
- [04:32]
Rich Roll
Today I'm honored to share a deeply personal glimpse into the interior, lived experience of an American icon in a delightful and at times emotional conversation I think you'll find utterly riveting and far more relatable than you might suspect. As well as deeply hopeful for those experiencing a season of darkness. So, ladies and gentlemen, the former first lady of California, Ms. Maria Shriver.
- [05:01]
Maria Shriver
I wish I knew at 40 what I know now. I wish.
- [05:10]
Rich Roll
Maria.
- [05:11]
Maria Shriver
Yes, Rich.
- [05:12]
Rich Roll
So delighted to have you here today.
- [05:15]
Maria Shriver
Thank you for having me.
- [05:17]
Rich Roll
It's an honor to get to share with you. And I think you're in a really interesting place in your life right now. You've got this new book and we're going to get into all of that. But I wanted to kind of set this up. I wrote it down because I didn't want to get it wrong. In thinking about your life and this new book, I am Maria. That's coming out. It's a very different kind of book than I think I was expecting and probably others will be expecting from you. I don't know what I projected onto, what I thought it would be. It's like these books tend to be like, you know, confessionals or, you know, it's not that at all. It's really this. This really.
- [06:02]
Maria Shriver
What did you think it was gonna be?
- [06:03]
Rich Roll
Well, I don't know. I maybe just. I mean, you've written books before, so I guess I didn't expect that it would just be this. The typical kind of standard memoir. There would be some unique way in. But I wasn't expecting, you know, a book of poetry, I guess I would say.
- [06:17]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [06:17]
Rich Roll
And in reflecting upon that, this, like, sort of poetic reflection on your life, it's really this exploration of self discovery. It's about finding yourself, finding your truth, your authentic self, and this journey to kind of healing and wholeness over the course of what I think we would all agree is a very big life that you've lived with peaks and valleys, high highs, low lows, trauma, joy, longing, betrayal, but ultimately hope. It's like it's coming home, right?
- [06:51]
Maria Shriver
Absolutely.
- [06:52]
Rich Roll
And I think that's really brave. You know, it's honesty and vulnerability in a very different kind of way. It's not vulnerable in that you're going to tell these stories that are embarrassing. It's vulnerable because you're demonstrating this willingness to look really deep within yourself and redress your part in all of this as a way of, you know, finding yourself, but doing it in a way where it is about you. But it's not like these. These poems, like, we can all find ourselves on some level in them. And although our lives are very different, like, I identified with a lot of what you had to share, and I think it's a really beautiful offering.
- [07:37]
Maria Shriver
Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to read it and for seeing that I didn't want to do a memoir. As I say in the book, I feel like I'm too young for a memoir. I feel like I have this whole life yet, this whole chapter yet to develop in my life. But I wanted to reflect back and figure out how I got where I was, you know, why I made the choices that I did, what was my own experience, and that it would be helpful to others because I had gotten so much strength from reading the experiences and journeys from others. And I'm a big believer. As a child, I read the books of Saints to inspire me. I was, you know, educated by nuns and so they gave you a lot of books about saints to read. But as a young woman, I read biographies, autobiographies, and I read a lot of poetry. And I was always inspired by what I read to move forward, to make choices. And I originally never intended to put my poetry out there. And then I gave it, as I say in the book, to several people. And they were like, this is my life, too. This is my experience. And this helped me look within. And I'd given a couple of the poems to Mary Oliver, who was. Is a huge hero of mine and friend. And she's like, you have to publish. You have to write more. And that's kind of how, in a roundabout way, I came to this book. And my hope is that it inspires others to write poetry, which I think is a tool. And not the kind of poetry I think of Mary Oliver. Cause that's so. That's Pulitzer Prize winning poetry, but it's really, you know, poetry from the front lines of all of our lives. And I think that's a great tool to your healing.
- [09:24]
Rich Roll
Yeah. She said, you should publish these. Was that a terrifying moment?
- [09:28]
Maria Shriver
Oh, I was just like, oh, Mary. I was like. And I only had a couple at that point. But she was so brave. She was such a brave woman in my mind. And she wrote so beautifully about nature and about life and about experiences. And when I was first lady of California, I produced a big women's conference. And I always. Every year I went to her and I said, could you come and participate? She's like, no, I don't do that. No. And she just kept knowing me and knowing me. And then I went to hear her speak and I went to meet her and I said, could you please come? It's my last year. Will you come? And she came. And that began this friendship between us all the way until she died. And then I spoke at her memorial. And her poetry, particularly the journey, that poem in and of itself really got my attention and changed how I saw my life and how I saw my own role in my own life. You know, when she said, you should pursue it, I think she was more like a mentor, saying to me, you know, keep pursuing what you're doing.
- [10:32]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think in general, we have this relationship with poetry. There are poets and there are normal people, and poetry is sort of this impenetrable sort of thing, or so we think. Yeah, we think. And I'm reminded of a friend of mine, his poetry, his public name is Inkyu, and he's sort Of a poet for the people. And he writes these amazing poems and does these kind of one man shows that are really quite remarkable. And his poetry is amazing. But he teaches poetry workshops all over the world. And his whole thing is like, we're all poets. And this is like. It's a practice like journaling that allows you to connect with yourself and find some kind of truths in the practice of it. And he makes people write poems immediately and then get up on stage and share them. And, you know, that kind of thing to, like, get you habituated, to get you over that, like, barrier of like, what poetry is, to make it like a more accessible practice for people.
- [11:32]
Maria Shriver
Well, I think we. I totally agree with him. I think we are all poets. I think we are all creative souls. I think we are all artists. And when we were driving out here, Sydney, who I work with, we were talking about that. I think it will be the poets, the creatives, the wounded, the healers who will be shaping our society in the future and really in the present. And I'm excited by that. I'm excited by people's poetry from the front lines of their life. About excavating what's within, about observing what is present and writing your way forward. That was a very healing thing for me to write my way forward. It allowed me to actually visualize what a life forward looked like. I've been a different kind of writer throughout my life. First as a journalist, which is just who, what, why, where, when, who did it, what do you need to know? And it's short and it's tight. It's a very different kind of writing. And you have like a minute 30 or a minute 40, and it's to pictures and it's specific. And then you are writing books, or you might write commencement speeches, or you might journal. And then I began the Sunday paper, which is my weekly news magazine. And I started writing kind of a weekly column. And then I kept at it as a practice. And over time, a new voice emerged from within me and out of me. That first I was like, who is writing this stuff? You know, I was like, whoa, it's kind of doesn't feel like me. It doesn't seem like me. And also the poetry didn't really feel like me or seem like me. And I thought, well, that's cool. There's something else in here. What is it?
- [13:13]
Rich Roll
A way of finding deeper truths about the truth.
- [13:15]
Maria Shriver
Absolutely. Or excavating deeper things that I didn't even know. And that combined with a meditation practice, that combined with a respect for Silence and making way for silence in my own life and allowing a voice to speak was and is incredible for me. And it's an incredible experience and one that anybody and everybody can have.
- [13:37]
Rich Roll
But once a reporter, always a reporter.
- [13:40]
Maria Shriver
Yes.
- [13:40]
Rich Roll
Your daughter still calls it reporter poetry.
- [13:43]
Maria Shriver
So, yeah, she's still the reporter in you, really. To report on our lives. Right. To find out what makes us tick, what is our passion, what is our mission. I certainly grew up with, you better get out there and figure out what you're gonna do to change the world. And so figuring out what was my service, what was my passion, what was my purpose started at a very young age for me. And being in silence, being in conversation with myself, reporting on myself, allowed me to figure that out in a way that the mind did not. If that makes sense.
- [14:22]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I mean, the excavation process involves deconstructing the past so you can build something new for the future. And this journey to wholeness is really that in your own life, when these ideas come out, it's like, where did that come from? Well, we have to go back to the beginning and reflecting upon your upbringing in your life. It's very difficult for the average person to kind of understand the lived experience of what you went through. I mean, there are very few people on planet Earth who carry a name that creates a sort of relationship with the public. Right. You are sort of prejudged. People make assumptions about you. Everywhere you go, people think that they know who you are. There's a parasocial thing with your family, and I can't imagine what that's like, especially as a young person trying to internalize that. So I think it would be helpful to kind of paint the picture of what that was like for you, because we can't understand how you evolved unless we understand where you came from.
- [15:30]
Maria Shriver
You want me to say where I was born, who I was born?
- [15:33]
Rich Roll
No, but I mean, I think more the sort of the vibe, you know what I mean? Like, we all have heard the stories of the ultra competitive, you know, Hyannis Port, competition oriented experience of being a member in good standing of your family.
- [15:50]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. So it's the only lived experience that I have. I grew up. I'm one of five kids. I have four brothers. I'm one of a kind of collective group of cousins. We all kind of grew up together. It was intense, and I think a lot of people grow up intense. But we grew up, obviously, in a public way and an intense way. And I grew up with parents who I call them architects of change. They were Just believers that you are here to change the world and you should start as young as possible. And they had no, you know, kind of my mother's like, I don't want to hear any if and buts about it. Just get out there and change the world. And they did that, both of them. My dad obviously started the Peace Corps. He started the War on Poverty, Job Corps, foster grandparents, you name it. My mom worked and started the Special Olympics. And she worked along with her brother, President John F. Kennedy, to establish Council on Mental Retardation. And her work was to change the lives of people with intellectual disabilities. And that work continues now with my brother. And all the programs that my dad started in government and outside of government continue on to this day. And I think are testaments to his creativity, his relentless drive, and his passion to make the world better and different. So I think they both had a passion for that. So I grew up in that atmosphere. My house was like that all the time. They were both also deeply Catholic. They both went to church every single day. So our home was filled with people who worked in government, people who worked in service, people of religious life, but all people who had vocations and purpose and wanted to change the world. So I grew up in that environment. It was competitive, chaotic, probably dysfunctional. And there was a lot of drama and chaos and people obviously getting assassinated and then, you know, running for more offices and getting assassinated again. And everybody feeling like they, I think, had to maybe run for office and do what those who had come before them did. And I didn't want to do that. And so I had always. I felt. I don't know if it was. Cause I was the only girl, whatever, but I always felt like I want to find my own path. I want to find my own way a little bit out of here to survive. But also I understood that my parents felt strongly that unless you were making a difference in the world, you know, like, what was the point?
- [18:30]
Rich Roll
It's complicated because on the one hand, like, it's unbelievably, you know, inspirational. Like the example that your parents set, like, we are a family of service, and you are expected to heed that call and find a way to give back. And the recurring kind of thing in your book is, for those of great privilege comes great responsibility. And that's sort of this ethos, right? Yes. And there's something really beautiful about that. And then on the other side, there's the pressure and the expectations and also the transactional nature of love. Like you're not to be unconditionally loved. Your love comes in proportion to your ability to achieve and serve and all of these things, right? You tell the story like you couldn't even sit down for a minute. Your mom would be all over you, Right? And that get up and go is like the engine that is engineers all of these changes. Like, there's something great about that. But at the same time, when you're suffocating in that and just yearning to be kind of seen and loved, like, how does that. How do you internalize that and find yourself within. Within that where the world is telling you and your parents are telling you this is who you are, you don't even have that opportunity to do it for yourself.
- [19:46]
Maria Shriver
Well, I think the idea, what you just said there, yearning. I think we're all, in a way, yearning for love. I think we're all yearning to be seen. I think we're all yearning to be un. For just being rich or Maria. And I think that certainly the message I got at a very young age was, that is not enough, and you better make it enough. And if you go out and change the world, then it will be enough. Maria will then be enough. And I think I've tried to change that pattern of parenting with my kids, and I've tried to really make it so that they feel they are enough in and of themself, that they are enough regardless of what they do, what job they have, how they are. I expect. And their dad expects them to be good people, to be kind, to be loving, and to, you know, be respectful. But I want them to know that they are loved for who they are, regardless of what they're doing. And I think that that's something I didn't realize until much later in life, that people do that, that that is actually going on.
- [20:57]
Rich Roll
People are like, but this is the real gift, right?
- [21:00]
Maria Shriver
Like, you can sit on the couch and still be okay. I was like, wow.
- [21:04]
Rich Roll
Yeah. But this is the generational trauma pattern interrupt, right? Like, in you healing yourself, you are kind of drawing a line, you know, in the sand and saying this, this is not okay anymore. And you spare your children, like, the pain that you suffered as a result of that, while also instilling in them, you know, the good aspects of, you know, kind of how you grew up and what's important and what's not.
- [21:28]
Maria Shriver
Yes. I mean, I'm a huge fan of both of my parents. I love them. My mother is my role model. She was the person who, and probably still has the most influence in my life, and I miss her every Single day of my life. She was tough, and it was somewhat confusing, you know, because she, you know, wore pants, she smoked cigars, she carried a briefcase. She went to work, she went to the office. She only hung. And I was like, okay, is that the female model? I don't know. My dad was planting flowers and doing the house, so they were, like, flipped in a way. And she really was. You gotta get out there and move it. She'd be like, move it along. And if you said to her, like, oh, I have a headache. Or she's like, no, not on my time. We don't complain here. We don't have a yip out of you. She'd put up pictures in the dining room of kids starving in Africa and then say, eat. Do you wanna eat dinner? Look at these pictures. So she was like, no, nonsense. She kind of was tough and expected a lot, but I think that was expected of her as well, as I came to realize later in life, you kind of repeat the way you're brought up. And she was brought up tough, and much was expected of her. And I think. I think she. In a family where all the attention went to the men, she was trying to prove herself.
- [22:59]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I'm curious around, like, whether it was more intense for you because you were a girl. And despite all of her amazing accomplishments and everything, I can't tell.
- [23:07]
Maria Shriver
My brothers will listen to this and go, give me a break. Maria.
- [23:12]
Rich Roll
Despite everything that she did, she was still overshadowed. Like, this was a world of men, your family. And so she was still in the shadow of that.
- [23:21]
Maria Shriver
And that kind of teased me off because she did so much and she was so extraordinary. And had she been in a different time. Right. When I remember growing up, people would always come up to her and say, oh, if this were a different time, you shouldn't run for president. You could have been president. Because she was really politically smart, strategic, she was relentless. She worked both sides of the aisle. She was in all of her brother's ears all the time. She accomplished a tremendous amount with her political savviness. And so I think she was always trying to say, I'm here, too, to her parents, to society at large, really. And I watched that as an only girl. Watched her work like that, try like that, make an effort like that. And I mean, in my mind, she accomplished that, but I don't think she thought she did.
- [24:19]
Rich Roll
Well, it wasn't until you were on the campaign trail when your dad was running for vice president, that the switch flicked on journalism.
- [24:28]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [24:29]
Rich Roll
Prior to that, you're Getting sent all over the world and kind of doing service, right. And trying to figure out, like, well, how do I fit into this complicated puzzle?
- [24:38]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And it was a gift. My dad was running with George McGovern in 72, and, you know, there was no room for me in the front of the plane. So I got to sit in the back of the plane with all the journalists. And there were very. In the back of the plane, so there was one woman named Cassie Mackin, who was a very well known journalist at the time. And I watched all the people on the back of the plane who were really dictating the story that was coming out of the front of the plane. And they also looked like they were kind of having fun. And I thought to myself, aha, this is where I belong. I belong with these people in the back of the plane. They're creative, they're smart, they're making a difference in my mind. They're pursuing the truth, they're writing stories. There's creativity going on back here and there's great storytelling. And I felt like that was a combination of everything I was interested in, and I wasn't really interested in the people in the front of the plane. So for me, that was a light bulb that went off and it was like, I want to pursue journalism as it was at that time.
- [25:45]
Rich Roll
I would suspect that you associated politics with tragedy or difficulty or, you know, I don't know what was. Not to say that you were maybe turned off to it, but like, you.
- [25:57]
Maria Shriver
Say that I was turned off to it.
- [25:59]
Rich Roll
I don't want to be like these people.
- [26:00]
Maria Shriver
Well, I didn't want to go through it. It meant assassinations to me. My dad lost in 72 in a really brutal way. And that was really painful to me, watching him deemed a loser and Nixon deemed a winner. Watching this was a man of great integrity and great ideas and great, you know, served in the Navy and was a man of service. And to watch, he was deemed, was, as a child, a really difficult experience to go through, I found. And I was also raised at a time where nobody kind of explained anything or talked about anything. So people would get killed, but no one would, you know, it was like, pass the sugar. And then you would have this kind of massive loss, and everybody'd be like, okay, what time is school? No one talked about anything that was occurring. And so I bottled up a lot of experiences and then went off to college and then decided to pursue a career in journalism, which I thought would allow me to kind of do my own thing and work My way up and make a name for myself in a profession that nobody else in my family was even entertaining.
- [27:15]
Rich Roll
So, two questions about that. First, was Hunter S. Thompson in the back of the plane in six months?
- [27:20]
Maria Shriver
No, he wasn't on that plane, but I knew of him. Yeah, I. Yes, yes, he wasn't. But, you know, Mike Barnacle was a guy named Mark Shields, Cassie Mack. And there were a lot of people in the back of the plane. And they were, as I said, most importantly, I thought that the people in the front of the plane wanted to know what the people in the back of the plane thought of them. And they were wondering what was the story that those in the back of the plane were telling. And so there was this interesting dynamic going on. And I thought, I want to be back there because I want to tell a story not just about what's going on in politics, but I want to tell stories of people that I would meet that would be out in the world doing extraordinary things. And I thought that the television medium, journalism at that time was a great place to inform and inspire and change people's hearts and minds. People gathered around their television. They paid attention to what was on the news, and it really impacted people's lives. And I thought this was a way for me to tell great stories, to meet people, to travel. It was competitive. It was hard, so it was a challenge. And I thought this was a profession that fit me. Most people in my family were becoming lawyers and talking about entering politics, and that just didn't speak to me.
- [28:41]
Rich Roll
Well, the family business is people, politics, purpose and service. So how was it received by the family when you were like, I'm gonna be a journalist?
- [28:51]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. Well, they didn't. They were. Cause that was the other side of the rope. I was walking to the other side of the rope. You know, my family walked by the journalists.
- [29:00]
Rich Roll
We make the news.
- [29:01]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And so you were gonna stand on the other side of the rope. That's really odd. But I think they have felt that it was just an idea or something I was just trying out, but probably something that I wouldn't stay in. But I was determined to once again make a name for myself so that I would be, probably. Which I didn't realize at the time, but that I. That I would be able to be something. That I would be able to get my parents attention if I did. Well, it's all about that fundamentally, it's all about making my parents proud, which I think it is for everybody in some way, shape or form. You know, you're trying to get your parents attention. You're trying to make them proud. You want to stand out. And I felt, for whatever reason that it was hard to stand out. It was hard to get their attention. They were busy. And I knew that if I did something and did it well, that that would get their attention.
- [29:57]
Rich Roll
Do you feel like you ever got that approval that you were seeking? Like, I think, yes. We all want our parents to, like, be proud of us, right? But I think you were reared in a very acute version of that, you know, where I would imagine, like, no matter how hard you tried or how much you achieved, you were always going to be like, still not quite getting there.
- [30:18]
Maria Shriver
But I think that was all me. I think my parents did think I was doing a great job. And they did say, you're doing wonderful work and good job. But I didn't feel. So that was on me, not on them.
- [30:32]
Rich Roll
Well, you talk about in the book this idea of independence, like masking a loneliness. So in other words, whether it's. Whether it's going into journalism or moving to California, these other things, like sort of coining it as, like, I'm being independent, I'm striking out on my own, like a little bit outside of this situation over here, but also an act of self preservation, like on behalf of yourself, but still kind of running away more than embracing who you actually were. Like, you're still kind of disconnected from who is Maria, because the world tells you who Maria is.
- [31:12]
Maria Shriver
And I didn't really realize that I was, quote, running away. I just knew that, like, oh, I need to get away from this, or this will consume me. And I think a lot of young people feel like that in their families, right? They wanna move away to kind of find their mark, make their mark, and maybe they find their way home at some point or they think that that's what they're supposed to do. And I think certainly, you know, I got out of college, I applied for jobs in journalism. I started to make my way. I had met Arnold at that point, who was as far away from anybody I'd ever met or anybody that my parents had ever seen, for that matter. So I think, you know, would probably, if they would have said I was being rebellious or, you know, they thought, oh, this is a phase Maria's going through. She thinks she's gonna be a journalist now she's going to California and now she's. Now she's moving in with this guy. Oh, my God. It's all kind of like rebellious. But for me, it was life saving and it didn't feel rebellious. It felt like, okay, this is my path. That's not my path over there.
- [32:20]
Rich Roll
Yeah. What's interesting about Arnold and you meeting Arnold and you talk about this in the book. Like, on paper it looks like somebody who's just wildly different. And of course he is, and he comes with all the charisma and all of it, but he shared that am and that, you know, that kind of drive that was very familiar to you. So on some level it did feel comfortable and somewhat the same.
- [32:44]
Maria Shriver
Right. They always say to you, you know, whoever you're picking in life, you're trying to work out something else in your life. Of course, I had never been to therapy, so I didn't know any of these things.
- [32:53]
Rich Roll
You're just recreating. Yeah. You're recreating the chaos. You're recreating your upbringing, life and your relationships.
- [33:00]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, but I wasn't hip to any of that. I, you know, had never been to therapy. I didn't go to therapy until I was in my mid-50s. So, you know, I didn't know. I just thought like, okay, I'm gonna beat it over here to California. Here's somebody who's free. Here's somebody who's competitive. He doesn't mind me working. He doesn't mind me pursuing my own dreams. Let's go have fun. Let's get out of Boston and Washington. And that felt like a life saving move for me.
- [33:29]
Rich Roll
Liberating.
- [33:29]
Maria Shriver
And it was. It was a life saving move for me. And it allowed me at that time to just get away from the intensity of my family, the intensity of the east coast, and just kind of figure out what kind of life did I want? What else was out there for me? What else was out there for anybody like me who'd grown up the way I did, or was I meant to just duplicate what my parents had, maybe what my cousins were doing? And it gave me a chance to look at the world in a different way.
- [34:01]
Rich Roll
But it looks like you kind of did both, right? Like you were able to plant your feet on the ground and be somebody different and strike out with some level of independence. But you were recreating the chaos and the intensity of striving and all of that.
- [34:16]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, I didn't realize it at the time, and I write about that in the book. And I think that's why I'm a big advocate of going to therapy young, actually, to figure some of these things out for yourself before you duplicate everything that you say you didn't like or everything you say that you were trying to get away from. But yes, I did. I recreated a similar thing that I had left. And I think then I didn't really realize that until my marriage ended. And then I was like, holy mackerel, now what? And that was a time of deep introspection for me to figure out how I got to where I was. And I wanted to, you know, look at myself, at the choices I had made, the way I had lived my life, own life. And I wanted to resurrect myself and move myself forward. But I knew that I had to do it differently than I had been living.
- [35:17]
Rich Roll
This episode is sponsored by Better Help. You know, one of the things that I've learned over the years about therapy is that it's not all about crisis management or just about facing and working through your shortcomings. It is that, of course it's helped me through all of my darkest, lowest and most desperate moments. But therapy actually really shines when you use it proactively as an essential tool to more positively navigate work, relationships, parenting, or yourself to really grow and help you build a better, more authentic life that is healthy, purposeful and sustainable. In other words, therapy not as a red flag, but as a green flag. Not just as triage to manage negative things, but as more of a Life Optimizer. And BetterHelp removes all the resistance and the excuses by simplifying the process and giving you access to choose from its platform of over 30,000 credentialed therapists. They've helped more than 5 million people worldwide and you can easily switch therapists until you find the right fit. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com richroll today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com richroll if you're a longtime viewer of this show, then you already know that I've spent plenty of episodes diving super deep into the evidence based science behind the many health benefits of fasting, from disease prevention all the way to health span extension. At the same time, there is this elephant in the room which is acknowledging that forgoing all food for extended periods of time. Well, it's kind of a big ask and intimidating enough to dissuade many who would otherwise benefit from this practice. But what if you could tap into those benefits without committing to a full on fast? That is the question my three time guest, Dr. Valter Longo, one of the world's top longevity researchers, set out to answer. And after decades spent looking into this at USC'S longevity institute. He developed the fasting mimicking diet, which is a protocol now accessible to everyone through Prolon. Prolon's got this five day program that gives you the benefits of fasting, supporting healthy blood sugar and boosting energy and even enhancing skin without going full on fast mode. Everything you need comes in one box. You open it up, it's all laid out in easy to read instructions. All five meals are packaged right in here for ease and convenience. And you've got soups, you got snacks, you got beverages all dialed in for each day, and the science backs it up. Three consecutive cycles can drop your biological age by 2.5 years and trim 1 1/2 inches of off your waist. Amazing. To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering all of you, my audience, 15% off site wide plus $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five day nutrition program, just visit prolonlife.com richroll that's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I F E.com richroll to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolon richroll to me, that moment when your marriage ended feels like it's sort of like hitting rock bottom in sobriety or like this divine moment of rebirth, like, where you're kind of really forced to, like, face yourself in a new and more profound way than you ever have and take stock of how you were living and figure out a way to move forward and take responsibility. Right. And you talk about betrayal in the book and this idea of reframing betrayal not through the lens of, like, what somebody did to me, but like the betrayals that you levied upon yourself.
- [39:15]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [39:15]
Rich Roll
Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [39:17]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. Which I had never. A shaman that I was working with talked to me about that. And he talked to.
- [39:23]
Rich Roll
You went to a shaman.
- [39:24]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, I went to a good Irish Catholic girl. I went everywhere. I know. And I think that that's okay. I think it's, you know, people are like, oh, well, you know, you shouldn't go to a psychic and you shouldn't go to a shaman and you shouldn't look at Buddhism and you shouldn't look at Hinduism. I'm like, I looked at everything.
- [39:40]
Rich Roll
We live in la.
- [39:41]
Maria Shriver
But I think that demystifying all of that and making. There are teachers everywhere. There are teachers all around us. And I'm a big believer in that. So he talked to me about, you have been betraying yourself probably since you were a young girl. You. You have Certain values, you probably slowly broke them apart. You said you would never do this. You probably did that. Let's go back and look at yourself and look at what you said. You would never do, that you did look at things, that. Choices that you made. You said you never would. And let's work on you, not work on the other person. And I thought that that was a really powerful thing. Let's look at how you can resurrect yourself, not wait for someone's apology, not wait for someone's, you know, letting it be okay for you to resurrect yourself. This is. You're in control. You're the empowered person. You do the work, and you can do the work. And that was very like, okay, let me look at myself. Let me look at. And that's when I started writing the poetry. Where did I slowly start to chip away at things that were standards for me? Where did I slowly give up on myself? Where did I slowly give myself away? Where did I. And how I can get it back? I wanted to own my own narrative here, own my own story, and also give up trying to be enough for somebody else at the same time.
- [41:13]
Rich Roll
Yeah, that's the big one.
- [41:14]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, that is the biggest one. And that took a really long time for me, and I have gotten there. And I think that that's, for me, that's a triumph.
- [41:24]
Rich Roll
I think that's. You know, when I opened this, I was saying how much I related to it. And I think that is an experience that so many people can relate to. Like, we just don't feel like we're enough and we're under pressure and we're trying to, you know, satisfy our bosses and our partners and our kids and feeling like we're always falling short no matter what. And, you know, sometimes it takes a crisis to, you know, kind of engage in that level of self reflection. I mean, what you did is really kind of like an a. It would be an inventory. You just did it with poet. But short of like, you know, having some kind of big crisis, like, how do you talk about how people can find that level of self empowerment through self reflection?
- [42:10]
Maria Shriver
People are having crisis all the time now, right? They're having, you know, they're looking at themselves through social media and they're not enough that they don't compare. They're looking at jobs and thinking, I don't have a purpose here. I'll never be able to get a house. How will I have a family? I think we're having many crises every single day, all over the place. I think the country is in crisis. I think everything that was is falling apart and that gives people have a lot of angst, a lot of anxiety and I think a lot of need for is this going to be okay, what's happening out there? And I think I'm a big proponent with that. I'm an advocate, as I said, of silence, of coming home to yourself, of writing. Okay, well maybe that's going on out there, maybe those comparisons are going on out there. But what's going on in here? What am I feeling myself? What do I want? How do I feel I'm going to make a difference? What am I here to do? And how do you drown all of that out? I don't think you need to get hit by a two by four. I don't think you need necessarily to hit rock bottom. Whether it's in aa, na, you name it, or whether it is to get divorced or get fired from a job. There's all kinds of heartbreak, I think going on all the time. But I think the key is stopping in this society, stopping and allowing yourself to sit in silence and have that conversation with yourself and report on what's going on with. So I think that that's possible for everybody. I wouldn't advocate hitting rock bottom. I wouldn't advocate ending up on a floor looking at your marriage and going now what? But sometimes that's what it takes. But I think we're seeing breakdowns in small ways all over the place today. And therefore that's why I'm hoping that whether it's writing or your friend, you were saying that he's democratizing poetry and telling everybody that they can write. And people feel a huge release when they write, even if they don't think of themselves as writers. Some people write with their opposite hand, their non dominant hand, and see what comes out there. I'm just a big believer that that can help you find your way forward when you feel in crisis, when you feel stuck, when you don't know the way forward.
- [44:44]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it feels indulgent, but it's actually, you know, positive self care to do that. And for somebody.
- [44:51]
Maria Shriver
Is it so indulgent to write?
- [44:53]
Rich Roll
Well, I think to stop and pause and carve out quiet time for yourself, especially if you're somebody who does feel like you're always behind in terms of like living up to other people's expectations.
- [45:05]
Maria Shriver
That's exactly the time to do it.
- [45:07]
Rich Roll
I know. It's like the time to do it is when you feel the least compelled to do it.
- [45:11]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [45:11]
Rich Roll
Like it feels like, that is a luxury that I cannot afford. But you need that pattern interrupt. Otherwise you're going to continue to just reap what you've always sown. Right.
- [45:21]
Maria Shriver
But it can be. You can start with five minutes, you can start with 10 minutes, you can start with 15. I'm not saying you have to be thorough and go to Walden Pond, or you have to go off onto a silent retreat or go on to a retreat or, you know, do what Jesus did and go away for 40 days. But if you look at history, if you look. You look at people who've actually been able to gather their thoughts before social media, they went away and kind of took time to be in silence to gather their thoughts. Things I've read about Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, they still go away and find time to, like, what am I thinking? Where am I going? What is my purpose? How do I want to change up what I'm doing? That's a conversation that everybody needs to have with themselves. So if you're having it in the bathroom. Bathroom in your closet. I've talked to some women who have two kids, and they say they get up 20 minutes early and they go in the bathroom, lock the door, and just try to figure out, what do I think? Where am I going? What do I want to do? So I think if you start. I have a poem there. Start where you are and start with what you have, which might be five minutes, might be 10 minutes. Just that kind of thing can lead, that can begin to design your path. Path.
- [46:36]
Rich Roll
I think when you talk about, like, things like purpose or meaning, like, what is my purpose? That that's intimidating for a lot of people, or perhaps even violent, like, oh, I should feel bad about myself because I don't know what my purpose is. And, you know, these poems that you've written are really just demonstrating, you know, what it means to, like, look inward, you know, and try to make sense of, you know, the complicated emotions that we all have and. And those bigger, grander ideas kind of emerge from that as a practice.
- [47:06]
Maria Shriver
Yes. I mean, I think purpose is different for everybody. And I find so many people come up to me, young people especially friends of my kids, and like, I'm looking for my purpose. It's like, your purpose isn't hiding behind a tree. Right? It's not. But just kind of doing something you love, your purpose is you're here. I'm a big believer in that. And we all. And it changes as we move forward in life. But these poems are really about an excavation of one's Childhood of one's feelings, of one's longing, of one's love. And my purpose has changed. My purpose now is to share this. To share the kind of art of poetry, the democratization of poetry, reflecting. It's different than it was when I was in my 20s. And that. That can evolve. All my work has kind of brought me to this place in a funny way, where I never thought I would be. I think young people often feel like I need a purpose. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I think just to take some of the. It's okay, you know, you're okay. You're doing great. You're enough. It's okay. You're gonna figure it out. Out. I'm here to help you. You don't have your purpose now. Or just get rid of the word. You know, Find your creativity, Find what brings you joy. I have a quote in my bathroom. It says, follow what brings you joy. Because that's what the world needs, is more people doing what brings them joy. That's a purpose.
- [48:40]
Rich Roll
And joy is related to following your intuition. I mean, purpose with a capital P. It's, like, scary. Yeah. So purpose is revealed in the doing. Like, are you engaged with and in action with those things that bring you joy? And what are the things that bring you joy? Well, let's look inside. What is your heart telling you?
- [49:03]
Maria Shriver
Exactly.
- [49:04]
Rich Roll
And we live in a culture that doesn't really value that. Like, it's all about the intellectual mind. Right. And that's what we prioritize. And we allow this thing between our ears to make our decisions for us and can drive our lives in so many ways. And we forget that we have this other mind down here that is the more important mind that should be making the bigger decisions about where you're investing your time and your energy and determining what's frivolous and what's important.
- [49:32]
Maria Shriver
But you just said your heart, right? So how do you get in touch with your heart?
- [49:37]
Rich Roll
Well, you have to remove distractions and carve out time for quiet reflection.
- [49:43]
Maria Shriver
That's all I'm advocating or suggesting. You know, and as I said, for some people, it's locking the door before your kids get up and going into the bathroom and just sitting there. You know, some people I've talked to, women who, like, say I hide in the closet or my. I go in there just to kind of gather myself. That's a gift you give to yourself. That's not selfish. That's necessary for you to know what your intuition is trying to say to you, what your inner voice is trying to say to you. You can't hear it if you're on social media 24. Seven scrolling. You can't hear it if you're in distraction mode all the time. I used to be deathly afraid of silence. I used to be terrified of being alone because I didn't think I could handle what would come up. I was so afraid. And when I started to try to meditate, I couldn't even sit still for 30 seconds. Seconds.
- [50:40]
Rich Roll
Well, you had a lot packed down, right? A lifetime of giving things away.
- [50:45]
Maria Shriver
I think a lot of people, maybe young people today, have a different language around that. But definitely I did not grow up in a home that talked about feelings. I did not grow up with people sitting around allowing for that. So I packed everything down. So when I sat still like that, I'd be like, mm, mm. Like, no, let's go. Do, do, do.
- [51:10]
Rich Roll
The intuitive voice, you know, it starts to be intimidating. But the thing is like that, that voice, it's always calling to you. And if you're living out of alignment with it, it starts to, you know, the volume starts to increase. And if you continue to ignore it, you do set yourself on this sort of collision course with some kind of crisis, because that's just the way life is. Like, it's sort of wired that way. And you talk in the book about, like, you know, all of these things happen, you know, for us as opportunities to grow and evolve. And I think that's really true. And so you can ignore your intuition or that voice that you're keeping in abeyance that really knows what you should be doing, but because you're not doing it and you don't know how you could start doing that, it creates all this dissonance that's just too uncomfortable to confront.
- [51:59]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And I think that luckily, God willing, life is long. I think I look back on that girl and I feel like when I was reading this book as an audiobook, I had so much compassion for her that I never used to have. I had no compassion for myself. When I was working, when I was going through stuff, I was just like, pull it together, you know, And I was really rough on myself and I feel really badly that I. I had no compassion for myself. And I think that we can have a need to have compassion for so many people and ourselves, but others, because people are trying. That's what I've really come to learn, that people are trying. They're trying to figure it out. Or I say to my kids, when somebody said, you know, my kids will Sometimes say like this person was such a, you know, to me or whatever, I'm like, imagine what they're being to themselves. Imagine what's going on in their life. Imagine what's going on in their head or in their, you know, life is tough for everybody. Whether you grow up in a well known family or a family with nothing, whether you and I think we're in an age when we're just like dissing everybody. I wrote about that this morning. We're just in a dis time dissing you, dissing me, dissing people of privilege, dissing people of pain, dissing people who step out, dissing people who share just why I have no understanding where that gets us at all.
- [53:27]
Rich Roll
It's not reaping anything positive right now, but the volume on it seems to be at a fever pitch right now. And I don't know where that. Yeah, where are we headed? It must be course correct with all of this.
- [53:39]
Maria Shriver
Well, I'm hoping once again that I said that. I think the healers, the poets, the wounded will actually course correct us. Because what's going on I don't think will course correct us. And I think we're in need of course correctness. You know, we're in need of compassion for one another. We're in need of compassion for ourselves, we're in need of silence, we're in need of living lives. I think we're all wanting to live lives of meaning. We all want to make our life matter in whatever way we decide that is. But the incoming is brutal. And what's on social media, what's out there, it's just brutal. To what end, I'm not sure. So I'm hoping that this book can help people look at their own lives and their own journeys with more compassion. That they can allow things to come up and then look at it and be compassionate for that side of themselves, that child in themselves that may have made wrong decisions, that may have ended up in places that they didn't intend, and that it also gives them the power to know that they can course correct, that they can resurrect, that they can come home and that we all make mistakes and we're all suffering in some way, shape or form from heartache and that we're capable of healing, helping one another to heal and healing ourselves.
- [55:04]
Rich Roll
In this healing journey that you've been on, looking back on that young Maria and having compassion for her on some level, an operating system was installed into you like, this is who you are, this is what we do, this is what's important, and you had no say or control over that. Right. And the healing journey has been one of first at some point, like, recognizing that, like, you just inherited this thing and perhaps, you know, got lost within it. And, you know, we're in a confused place where, like, you couldn't even have a connection with who you really were. So you had to kind of rewrite the code or, like, unravel this knock knot and then be kind of naked before you could tie a new knot around, like, who you are and what's important to you. That, of course, is going to be related to that past, but which is truly you. Right. Does that make any sense at all? Like, how do you do that?
- [56:05]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. I mean, I feel in a funny way, look at if somebody told me five years ago that I'd be releasing a book about poetry from the front lines of my life, it's kind of funny. Are you crazy? No way. You know, I don't even know. Some mornings I wake up and I'm like, why am I doing this? And it's, In a way, it feels like a sole purpose. That's the only thing I can describe it as. I feel like I'm in a really great place in my life, and I'm 69 years old, and I feel like everything I've gone through in my life, been through, tried, failed at, worked at it again, has come to this place. Everything I'm doing now, I'm using skills that I got by going from my first job all the way through. So I try to say to my kids, you know, don't worry that you're not in a certain place at 27 or 30 or 35, you know, shucking oysters. Working at a bar in Georgetown actually helps me where I am today. Right. Being a journalist helped me when I became first lady. Being an entrepreneur with mosh, I got from being entrepreneurial in my role as first lady. Getting to where I got in my marriage helped me to resurrect myself and see what I was actually made of and stand on my own two feet, practicing forgiveness, practicing healing. I have a great relationship with Arnold. I have a great relationship with my kids, my brothers. I know where I'm going, even though I have no idea where I'm going. And I can hold both. And I would never have thought I'd be here. So I say to my kids, don't worry about where you're gonna be in the next couple of years. Just keep working, keep trying, Keep following your bliss. Right. Joseph Campbell talks about that Howard Thurman talks about that, you know, have rituals in life. I'm a big believer of that. And don't be afraid. I'm terrified with this book. I'm terrified.
- [58:04]
Rich Roll
Well, you're very exposed. Yeah. But, like, what. That's why it's so powerful, because you're like, this is me.
- [58:10]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [58:11]
Rich Roll
And I'm owning my space.
- [58:13]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [58:14]
Rich Roll
And I feel really good about myself such that I can put a poetry book out in the world for everybody to read and, like, you know, say whatever they're going to say about it.
- [58:24]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [58:25]
Rich Roll
And, like, I'm good with myself because I honor that thing inside of me that wanted to express myself that way.
- [58:31]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And I never thought I would be doing that. And I never thought that feeling enough would take what it took. I thought I would feel enough. When I won an Emmy, I thought I would feel enough. The first time I got a book out and it was on the New York Times bestseller list, I didn't understand that that was the enough. And five minutes later, that enough was gone. I didn't understand that the work of being enough is an inside job. It has to do with, for me, my relationship with God, my relationship with my faith, my relationship with myself, the work that I've done, the work that I continue to do. I was not given that message. I was given the message, you will feel enough when you run for president, when you are on the COVID of this magazine. And that was a false promise for me.
- [59:26]
Rich Roll
Yeah. It's hard to override that because that's our cultural imperative. Right. Arthur Brooks calls it the striver's dilemma. And, you know, if you're an ambitious person or you have that internal engine, you're going to chase that thing. And all of those things are fine. It's our relationship to them. Right. And when we self identify with them or allow them to dictate how we feel about ourselves independent of them, that's when we get into trouble.
- [59:53]
Maria Shriver
And.
- [59:54]
Rich Roll
And it's so difficult to override that. You could be somebody who is. I mean, you've been going to church forever. Right. And hearing whatever they're telling you there every Sunday and still not being able to put those pieces together until you had to have the experience for yourself and run into the wall with it to say, this isn't working.
- [60:15]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. But I think so. That's cool in a way, I think of it, it's like, okay, that didn't work. That didn't work. This worked. And I think staying at it is the work of our lifetime. Right. Figuring out why we're here, figuring out what will make us feel enough, what will make us be at peace, what are we here to do? Those are all questions that come from our own internal dialogue and our own conversations that we have with ourselves. So journalism was great for me at the time that I did it, you know, and I did it on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, and it was ferocious, and I was determined. And all of the things that I've done in my life, I feel like, okay, those were all stepping stones to getting me to realize it's just me. I'm just here by myself. I. I'm just kind of. That's it. That's all there is in the rear view mirror.
- [61:16]
Rich Roll
It all, like, makes sense, right? Like, it's like, it almost looks predetermined. Like, all these things happen so that you could become this person. Of course, when you're living it, it's chaos and confusion all the way. But one of the hilarious things is when, you know, Arnold decides, like, okay, I'm going to run for governor.
- [61:34]
Maria Shriver
And you're like, it wasn't really hilarious.
- [61:36]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I'm like. You're like, oh, my God. Like, I've done everything to, like, move away from politics, and here I am, you know, in this position, you know, that I was trying to run away from, like, life, you know, was basically just threw that curveball at you. Like, you can't escape, like, you know, certain things about your past or, you know, who you are. Right?
- [61:57]
Maria Shriver
Like, okay, here you go, Maria.
- [62:00]
Rich Roll
What are you gonna do with this now?
- [62:01]
Maria Shriver
What are you gonna do with this? And not only are you gonna be thrown back into politics, but you're being thrown into the opposing party of politics, you know, So I think that was, you know, as I write in there, it was something I definitely was not in favor of. And it turned out to be a great thing for me, and I think it turned out to be a great thing for him. And it also taught me that, you know, you don't stand in somebody's dreams, in the way of their dreams. When people have a dream, your job, if you're a partner or parent, is to get out of the way and let them pursue it. And so I think I learned a lot by being kind of, quote, a Democratic first lady in a Republican administration that I've been able to put to use in my work in women's health and my work in Alzheimer's research and funding for Alzheimer's. So all of these things, once again, helped me out, and I ended up Making incredible friends there. And I found a voice at that time that I didn't even know existed within me. I had to stand on my own and give speeches on my own. And it turned out to be an incredible thing. Something I didn't want and something I didn't want him to do. Turned out to be an incredible experience for me.
- [63:20]
Rich Roll
And in the doing, fulfilling the family prophecy.
- [63:22]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, my parents were really happy with that. My mom was like, oh, Arnold's gonna run for governor. Got it.
- [63:29]
Rich Roll
Get it.
- [63:29]
Maria Shriver
I know that, you know, so that's funny. But she, you know, also I was like, wow, this is really kind of a wild turn of events. I would never have thought when I met him that he would run for office, but I don't think he would have thought anything.
- [63:44]
Rich Roll
Yeah, this guy's the furthest thing from that world. Yes.
- [63:48]
Maria Shriver
Furthest thing I could get, you know? So I was, like, sure that if I hitched my wagon here, I would never have anything to do with politics again. So there you go.
- [63:59]
Rich Roll
I want to talk about the Alzheimer's stuff and the brain health, but before I do that, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about how you went from the dissolution of your marriage and just how painful that must have been for you to this place where you have a good relationship with Arnold today. I think that there's inspiration in that. So many people are divorced and struggle with trying to find a way to have a healthy relationship with their. With their ex. So, like, what exactly did you do to kind of go from there to here?
- [64:31]
Maria Shriver
Well, first I healed myself, so I really focused on that, and I focused on being okay with myself, and I focused on resurrecting myself. I focused on liking myself again, loving myself.
- [64:48]
Rich Roll
What practices? Like, how did you actually do?
- [64:52]
Maria Shriver
Well, I went to therapy. I did plant medicine.
- [64:56]
Rich Roll
That's when you first started to go to therapy, the plant medicine?
- [65:00]
Maria Shriver
I did everything you can think of.
- [65:02]
Rich Roll
What was that like?
- [65:03]
Maria Shriver
It was great. It was very healing for me. It made me love myself, help me to love myself. And that's what I was trying to repair myself and heal myself. I wanted to be a good example for my children. I wanted to resurrect myself. I wanted to keep my shoulders back. I wanted to hold my head up high. And I always. I tried to close my eyes and picture, you know, five years out, 10 years out. I wanted to picture my children's wedding. I wanted to picture my children having children themselves, and I wanted to. And I envisioned Arnold and myself at those events. You Know, friendly, happy, so that my children would not feel conflicted, so that my children would not feel like they couldn't be in the same room. So that my children didn't have, ugh, can we have mom and dad in the same room? And I put that, that was a visualization practice for me. And I made steps always with that vision front and center in my mind. And I also focused on the fact that since I had been 21 years old, I had been trying to help Arnold achieve his dreams and I had loved him. And that just because this happened, you know, didn't mean that I couldn't love him in a different way and that he couldn't be my friend and that we were still and always would be a family. And that half of him was in these children and half of me was in these children. And that their life depended on us getting along. And I wanted to lead in that area.
- [66:50]
Rich Roll
That's a heavy thing. Like, you can craft a story. There was a very public story around this. And you could very easily say, this is the story, right? And, you know, there's good guys and bad guys, but who is that serving? And there's something, you know, kind of magnanimous about like, I'm going to write a different story no matter what anybody else is saying about this, for my own well being and for the well being of my children to have this different experience.
- [67:19]
Maria Shriver
That's what I wanted to do. And I think that's happened. I hope it's an ongoing. Right, it's an ongoing thing. And I think it's something that we all have to work at, those of us who are, you know, divorced or people who are separated or whatever it is. And I remember my pastor saying to me, you know, I know many families living under the same roof who are way more divorced than many divorced families that I know. So I just put together a vision for myself to work towards that. I wanted so that when our daughter Catherine had her first baby and we all gathered in the living room and we were all there and took pictures and held the baby, there was no issue, there was no angst. And I got in the car after and I burst into tears. I could cry now because I was like, that's good.
- [68:14]
Rich Roll
That's pretty great.
- [68:15]
Maria Shriver
That's great. And, you know, I could have taken this path and I could have taken this path, but I really have worked hard to take this path. And everybody sat in that room and everybody laughed and took pictures and felt good. And I was like, that was good. I've worked Hard at this and to.
- [68:35]
Rich Roll
Parent your kids through that.
- [68:36]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [68:37]
Rich Roll
You know, when it's in the public space.
- [68:39]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. I think that that's, you know, always a challenge. I think they're extraordinary people. They love their dad, and I wanted them to love their dad and they love me. And I wanted them to find their own paths forward and be able to make their own relationships. And I hope for each of them that they have partnerships that last forever and that if one of them finds that they don't, I want them to know that. That there be okay by showing them. Well, you know, this. I certainly. I had 35 years with your dad. That's a really long time. And so. And I'm okay and I'm standing and so is he. And, you know, you will be able to too, if that happens to you. And so that was important to me, you know, for all my children, but especially for my girls.
- [69:32]
Rich Roll
Your kids seem great. I mean, I don't know you that well, and I only met your kids very briefly at that. That MOSH event, but they seem very well adjusted. And what's so interesting in the timing of that is, like, I did the podcast with Arnold in his office, and then when we finished that, he's like, I gotta go. It's Patrick's birthday. I'm going to this birthday dinner. And I was like, oh, I'm going to see Maria, because she invited me to go to this MOSH event and do this panel. And so I never met any of you or either of you. And then like, in rapid succession, like, I met both. Both sides of the family and had the opportunity to chat with Patrick a little bit. I only met your daughters pretty briefly.
- [70:14]
Maria Shriver
They're all great, but I got the.
- [70:15]
Rich Roll
Vibe, you know what I mean? These are good people.
- [70:19]
Maria Shriver
Thank you. Thank you. That's my life's work and it's the greatest thing. I was terrified to become a mother. I liked my job. I was traveling all over. I was not in any hurry to have kids. But I think fundamentally I was afraid. And I was afraid. I also had our first kid, Catherine, when there was no maternity policy, there was nobody in the news business having a kid and surviving or continuing on. So I was like, ee. And the minute I held her in my arms, I was like, this is for me. This is what I wanna do. And I enjoy them more than anything on the planet. And I just went the other night to Patrick's premiere for White Lotus because he's in the new season of White.
- [71:08]
Rich Roll
Lotus, which is premiering this Sunday, right I don't know when this is going out, but, like.
- [71:12]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, but it was so exciting. It was one of those nights, you know, where, like, all the kids were in the car, everybody was dressed, everybody was laughing. Everybody was being supportive. We all went. Everybody was there to support Patrick. And it was like. I was like, this is just awesome, you know, to have to be lucky enough. My kids are healthy. They like each other at this moment. You know, they like each other. They love each other. They enjoy each other's companionship. They include me. They include their dad. I'm like, wow, life is good.
- [71:49]
Rich Roll
It doesn't get any better than that.
- [71:50]
Maria Shriver
It doesn't get any better than that.
- [71:51]
Rich Roll
I had a. That's similar experience over the Christmas holiday. Like, our kids are 29, 28, 21, and 16. Everybody was home. Everybody's getting along. Like, we're past all the petty adolescent fights and all of that, and everyone's enjoying each other's company. And, like, Julie and I, like, they're happy to be with us, too. Like, we have a great. Like, they're not. Like, I wanted to get away. I was like, get me away from my, you know, parents. You know, I would go home for holidays, but it wasn't like I. I would look forward to, like, time spent. It was sort of like, this is what you do. And to be able to have a different kind of relationship with. I mean, it's the most, like, gratifying thing you could imagine. It's like. It's. It's, like, overwhelming. Cause that's what everywhere every parent wants to, you know, aspires to have.
- [72:36]
Maria Shriver
It's overwhelming. And it's. That's what I. When I sit and have dinner one on one with one of my kids, I feel enough. I feel like, wow, this is what. I never knew that this is what it was about, that I just sit there and I'll say to my son, do you want me to invite other people? He goes, I'm good, Mom. Just with you, I'm good. It's all good. And I'm like, really? Wow. Okay. Thank you.
- [73:04]
Rich Roll
And the domino effect of that.
- [73:06]
Maria Shriver
Oh, it's like, that's what it's all about. And I think that I wish I'd known that at a much younger age. I wish I'd known that that's what it really was about. And that these other things. And I think it's helpful if people who are winning those awards or on the COVID of magazines say, this is great. This is wonderful. But what it's really about is Being enough to yourself and having one or two other people also feel that you're enough. And that's that feeling of contentment where no one's jumping up from the table to get away from you or trying to substitute you with somebody else. That that's really what we're here for. That's the feeling we're supposed to be.
- [73:52]
Rich Roll
Chasing, allowing them to be who they are.
- [73:55]
Maria Shriver
Amen.
- [73:56]
Rich Roll
And celebrating them for that. But if there's anybody in your sort of extended family who's likely to carry on the family legacy, it might be Chris Pratt. How long before that guy runs for.
- [74:09]
Maria Shriver
I will get talk to him, but all I know is that he is an incredible husband and father and, you know, unbelievably gracious and loving son in law and a beautiful man inside and out. And the way he treats Catherine, the way he treats her siblings, the way he treats her children, their children is beautiful. And I think he has his eye on the ball and he knows what matters. And I think he knows where he feels enough.
- [74:46]
Rich Roll
That's cool.
- [74:47]
Maria Shriver
He's a wonderful, wonderful man. You know, people try to get him like, oh, you know, you're moving across the street from your mother in law. He's like, I love my mother in law. He doesn't fall for, like, you know, the tweaking. And yet he also has a great sense of humor. So they have a cool thing going. So. But I. You'd have to ask him what his plans are. Yeah, I don't know.
- [75:07]
Rich Roll
Well, maybe one day he'll come here and I can ask him.
- [75:09]
Maria Shriver
Oh, okay.
- [75:17]
Rich Roll
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- [76:58]
Maria Shriver
Well, my dad got Alzheimer's and my father, Sergeant Shriver was the smartest human being I and probably everybody who met him had ever met. So to watch somebody like that, that lose their memory, lose their brain, so to speak, was a stunning experience. And so when he was first diagnosed I was like what is this? And I went out as a reporter and said like how does this happen? When does it start? Why him? What is going on? And I wrote a children's book about it. Then I did a big HBO special called the Alzheimer's Project about it. Then I became an Alzheimer's research and funding because there was so little federal funding for Alzheimer's because it was something that people associated with only old people and far away in the distance, right. And so it was what we would call open space. There were very few people. People heard Ronald Reagan had Alzheimer's and then daddy wrote a letter explaining that he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. But I wanted to understand it as a daughter, I wanted to understand it. And once again I wanted to take this experience and try to help other people with it. And then I started to notice that more and more women seem to have Alzheimer's than men. And all the doctors said to me no, you're only thinking that cause women live longer. I said I don't think that that's the case. And they're like no, no for sure that's the case. So I spent a year and a half, almost two years, I partnered with the Alzheimer's association and and we did a Shriver report to the president, to the nation that reframed that story, that Alzheimer's did in fact happen disproportionately more to women than to men. So that hunch, that gut, that intuition was correct and that nobody knew why that was because we had done no research on women. And that led me to discover that the funding of anything vis a vis women was decades behind men, that we were doing no research at all into women's brain health. So I started a nonprofit called the Women's Alzheimer's Movement to raise funds to research women's brains. I became a big advocate for increased research funding of all things women's health, which led me to create, along with, in partnership with the Bidens, the White House initiative for women's health and research. And it's what led me, along with Patrick, to create, obviously it's a protein bar for the brain. Because in all of the discovery, you know, we now know that lifestyle has a huge impact on dementia, Alzheimer's. When I first got involved in Alzheimer's research, lifestyle wasn't even in the picture. It was just a disease that happened to old people and there was nothing you could do about it. And that storyline is vastly different today. And so what we eat has an impact. How we sleep, how we connect, so many other things, how we echo or don't, how we move, all of these things now impact, we know, brain health. But still brain health is something I think for a lot of people that's kind of out there cause they can't see their brains. And as long as it's working somewhat for them, I think people don't associate what I eat, how I sleep, et cetera, with brain health. So I'm on a mission to educate people about Alzheimer's, about brain health, and also to increase the funding for women's health and research research.
- [80:34]
Rich Roll
The mission is working. There's still a lot of Runway left in terms of educating people. But you know, I'm old enough to remember that narrative of things like this just happen. There's nothing you could do about it. It's not your fault, it's your genes. And it just is something that, you know, certain people get and once they get it, there's nothing you can do about it.
- [80:55]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [80:55]
Rich Roll
And now we're in a more empowering time in which we really are understanding the impact of lifestyle choices, diet, nutrition, exercise and the like, and the impact that these things are having on our long term health. I think it's difficult when you're younger to even like think about, you know, like making sure that what you're doing, you know, is going to put you in a good position for when you're old because you just, you can't like protract your life that far in advance. But I do see younger People really thinking about, I mean, in ways that would have never occurred to me. And when you think about these chronic ailments, whether it's, it's heart disease or, you know, like Alzheimer's, dementia, I mean, fundamentally it's a disease of the circulatory system.
- [81:41]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [81:41]
Rich Roll
And so what is bad or good for your heart is going to similarly, you know, impact the brain. And to even be thinking about the brain and that we have any kind of agency over the direction of how we age and what it's going to look like when we're 80, and what our cognition might or might not be is like, incredible. And now with all these tools, these devices, wearables, AI technology, I only see that increasing. But I think the real work, from my perspective, and I'm curious what you've discovered because you're so deeply entrenched in this, is that gap between information and action. It's one thing to say, listen, you shouldn't eat these foods, or these are the things you should do for your brain health. And then actually getting people to believe that they have that kind of agency and then implement those changes in a sustainable way.
- [82:33]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, well, I think that's with everything, you know, that we were talking about with the book thinking, okay, well, how do I implement that in my life? How do I put rituals into my life that will benefit me five years from now, ten years from now? Right. I hear more and more people saying, you know, I don't want to, to end up like my father, my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather. What do I need to do now in order not to do that? So there's much more awareness about Alzheimer's, about dementia, about brain health than there was five years ago, 10 years ago. And I started in this space 20 some plus years ago. And when I would speak about it, people would look at me like I was crazy. And now people are like, I know someone, my mother, my father, or whatever. And I think also people see people living longer and they're interested in longevity. The whole longevity market is very different. And I think you just, you know, kind of people have to take control once again over their narrative. What matters to me does exercise matter? Where do I put it into my life? What can I eat? How do I eat? Is ultra processed food, food what I want to eat? And then people say, well, it's easy for you to say because organic or ultra processed and cost. But there are ways around all of these excuses and it becomes up to us to try to implement them to the best of our ability. Now I have an issue with sugar. Right? But sugar is terrible for your brain. So I ask people around me, if you see me going for sugar, please, I ask for help. I ask for people to help me. I now know that protein is really important for women as they age. So I ask people, can you help me get more protein? I say to my son, he's like, before you go over to do that podcast, here's the protein shake. I'm looking for help because otherwise I oftentimes don't do that. So I suggest that oftentimes to people, tell people around you to help, ask for help. Tell people like, do you want to be my walking buddy? Do you want to go to the gym with me? Do you want to pump with me? Do you want to help me with the food? Do you want to. And not to lose weight or not, but to be, you know, first of all independent, to be strong. I want to be able to lift up my grandchildren. I want to be able to live independently. I have to do stuff right now that's going to help me with that. And I wish I had done it for 40. I wish I knew at 40 what I know now.
- [85:05]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I wish, I think that idea of like wishing I had started sooner. Like when we, like the whole dementia, Alzheimer's thing really locks in when you have a family member who's going through it. And typically you don't have that experience until you're at a certain age. Like, I'm 58, my mother has dementia. You know, luckily I've sort of made a lot of those changes. You know, when I turned 40, that's when I, when I started to make these changes. But imagine the 58 year old version of me or somebody else who's finally now reckoning with like, oh my goodness, like, I don't want that. But, you know, it's too late. I've been living my life a certain way up until this point. It's so hard to change habits when you're locked into them for so many decades. And like, isn't that script already written at this point anyway?
- [85:53]
Maria Shriver
Every doctor tells me it's never too late. Start right now. Once again, back to the poem. Start where you are today. Start walking, join a gym, start lifting weights, start eating more protein, start prioritizing your sleep, start prioritizing writing, all of these things. I think those are excuses. And by the way, your kids are looking at your mom and they're in their 20s and, and 30s, they're gonna pay more attention to their brain health. Cause they're seeing it up close. My kids saw my father up close at an early age and they were like, whoa, you know, like, I don't want you to get that, Mommy. And they also don't wanna end up as the caregivers. Right. Which as we all, at some point in our life will need to be taken care of or will become a caregiver, which is a whole other topic of conversation. But I think that prioritizing our brain health along with our physical health, they go together. Oftentimes people don't connect the brain to the heart. They don't connect the exercise that they're doing for their triceps to thinking about what's good for my brain as well. How do I work out my brain? What does my brain need? If my triceps or my biceps or my quads or my need squats, what does this need? You know? And I think that's the conversation I'm trying to have. Patrick's helping with mosh. But these are the conversations, I think, that are much more out there today than they ever were five or pre Covid even. You know, people started during COVID talking about brain fog. They started. Now we talk about how people learn. We talk about different learning styles, different how the brain operates. We can see the brain in a different way. So I think this is an exciting time for brain health, and I think it will only become more exciting as more people become interested in longevity and as we search for cures in out of the way places. And I think AI will be helpful in medicine in this way because as everybody knows, we've been looking all over for a cure for Alzheimer's and everything has come up and. Which is depressing. But then we have on the other side, the lifestyle research, which is hopeful.
- [88:10]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And the early detection with new technologies and scanning and.
- [88:15]
Maria Shriver
Right. But people say, like, well, I don't want to know early because then why? Yeah, it's scary. It's scary.
- [88:20]
Rich Roll
If you feel like you have some agency in that to do something about it, to ameliorate it or reverse it, then you're going to kick into action. But yet who wants to know if they have. What is that gene, you know, that makes you predisposed for it even though it's not determinative. Yeah. It's like, do I want to know that? It's like, it's a scary thing.
- [88:40]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. But so much of life is scary. Right. It's like you don't ever really know what's going to happen today. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow? And you can live in that space or place, or you can just live.
- [88:55]
Rich Roll
So much of life's secrets are revealed in developing a comfort with reality of life being uncertain. Like, we're so deeply uncomfortable with uncertainty. Right. Yeah, I get it.
- [89:09]
Maria Shriver
Try to control.
- [89:10]
Rich Roll
Yeah. We're not acting in our best interest because of that fear.
- [89:14]
Maria Shriver
But I think what's interesting to me is that, you know, like, having just gone through the fires out here about the lack of control we all have in our life that we actually forget about, we actually think we have all of this control. And you watch Mother Nature just decimate everything. You're a bystander and, you know, life just goes on. Right. And I think kind of living life as opposed to being afraid of it is a really important message that I try to convey to our kids. I try to tell it to myself. Like, as I said, I'm afraid of this book, of putting it out into the world. I'm afraid of saying I felt shame. I'm afraid of saying I was confused. I was afraid of saying I sat on a hotel floor and cried. I was afraid of writing this stuff. And then I was like. But I was more afraid of not doing something that felt like it wanted.
- [90:17]
Rich Roll
To be born or honoring yourself.
- [90:19]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. But really being born that it felt like a side of me wanted to be born. And that I felt like I could have used this book 15, 20 years ago. I could have used this book and it would have helped me know, like, okay, there's light over here. Someone else has gone through this. And as my other brother says, there are books like, you know, yours. I don't think I'm like, okay, well, I didn't find them. And I read a lot of books, but that's the job of a brother. But I'm hopeful that this will speak to somebody who might be on the hotel floor, who might be on the rock bottom, who might wonder about themselves. And I'm hopeful that this will be an offering to them.
- [91:07]
Rich Roll
I think that hope will be realized.
- [91:09]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [91:11]
Rich Roll
While we're still on the topic of Alzheimer's, we talk a lot about self care, what we can do for ourselves to, you know, prevent that fate from occurring. But I don't hear a lot or enough about how the caretakers take care of themselves, you know, whether they're family members or the spouse, you know, the partner of somebody who's going through this. I just know what. What my father is enduring right now, and my sister who, you know, lives in Washington, D.C. and is, you know, dealing with it in a much more kind of real way than I am being 3,000 miles away. It's incredibly trying for people who are trying to care for these people. And it's a situation that it's amplified because of the memory problem. Like, it's very triggering, and it's very easy to lose patience. So what have you learned about that side of this disease?
- [92:12]
Maria Shriver
Well, I learned that once you see one case of Alzheimer's, you've seen one case of Alzheimer's. A doctor said that to me once, that every situation is vastly different from the other situation. Every family goes through this in a very different way. Siblings go through it in a different way. And so I can only share what worked for us. And my siblings and I got together. As I said, I had four brothers. And we started a week, weekly phone call to connect and try to figure out what each of us could do to support my dad, who was in Washington at the time. My parents were living together. My mother was having strokes. My dad had Alzheimer's. So they both needed different kinds of care. They both needed different things from each of us. So we tried to support one another in the process. And that turned out to be a really great thing that we did because we were able to hear from each other. Some people felt more like on deck than others. Some people felt like more weight than others. Some people felt like, I'm doing all of this and you're doing nothing. And it was a place for us to talk amongst ourselves. I think many families, many spouses, need support groups where they can talk about the loss and the loneliness that comes up when a spouse gets Alzheimer's. Some people begin other relationships and feel tremendous guilt in that. And I think the other thing I've learned is that, you know, people start judging families that put somebody in an assisted living thing, judge families, or judge a partner who starts another relationship. And I'm always trying to advocate, like, none of us know what that family is going. We don't know their finances. We don't know their pain. We don't know their anguish. We don't know their setup. And I think it's to support families, right? There are a lot of support groups that are out there for spouses, for children. And people are going through, like, I went through a different thing when my dad had Alzheimer's than my mom was completely different. She was frustrated in a completely different way than I. I learned patience from my children because they were watching my father in the present. I was frustrated with him that he wasn't who he used to be. And so my relationship was one of frustration. And they were like, why just play a puzzle with daddy, Your father, you know, we're just playing a puzzle with him. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to play a puzzle, you know, with my dad back, I want him back. I want to talk about, you know, his work. I want to talk about his vision for the country. I want to ask him advice. And they were really thrilled to be in the present with him. So I learned how to deal with my father by also actually watching how my kids played with him, walked with him, watching how some of my brothers interacted with him. And whenever anybody comes up to me about it, I will try to, you know, direct them to support groups, because caregivers need support. They need care. They need help for sure. This is a 247 job. It's expensive. So we need, as a part of a national agenda to figure out how to get more support to families going through it. I chaired a task force for Governor Newsom here in California for how California could do better when it came to Alzheimer's. And what we needed in terms of more caregivers, we needed a task force. We needed kind of a standard of care, standard of diagnosis. And the disabled community is included in that, by the way, for people with down syndrome who get Alzheimer's at a disproportionate rate. So we haven't had a presence who's prioritized Alzheimer's or caregiving or care really. And I think this is also a wide open space for us as a country to come together, because this is knocking at everybody's door.
- [96:24]
Rich Roll
Well, the rates are increasing. Right. I'm sure you know that percentages. Yeah.
- [96:29]
Maria Shriver
So more and more people is 10,000 people turn 65 every day. And so, you know, we're. People are having less choice children. There are not a lot of young people clamoring to get into the caregiving space. So how do we make that enticing? How do we make that accessible? How do we maybe offer free tuition perhaps maybe to state schools in exchange for two or three years as a caregiver? These are some of the ideas that are out there that are being thrown around. How do we maybe get temporary visas for people to come in who want to be caregivers? But also, ultimately, how do we find a cure to stop that in its tracks? And also, how do we look at how women age differently? And why are women disproportionately getting this? What's going on in their lives 20 years before they're diagnosed. That makes them predisposed to this diagnosis. And that was really the work that we tried to do under the Biden White House is to really prioritize funding for women's health and research because it lags so far behind.
- [97:36]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Do you know Dr. Lisa Moscone?
- [97:40]
Maria Shriver
I wrote the foreword to both of her books.
- [97:42]
Rich Roll
Oh, you did? I've had her here. She's just.
- [97:44]
Maria Shriver
And I fund a lot of her research.
- [97:46]
Rich Roll
Oh, you do? Okay, good.
- [97:48]
Maria Shriver
Uses to look at the brain so you can see it. And I do a lot of work with her. And. And I've long believed that the menopausal brain, the premenopausal brain, the menopausal brain, the postmenopausal brain was the clue or had clues for us, which is why we funded the women's Alzheimer's movement. Funds her work.
- [98:12]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Amazing. That story that you shared about your kids playing board games. There is something like this reframe that's been helpful to. To me is recognizing that these are people who are compelled to live in the present. Right. And we live our lives captured by the past and lost in future tripping. And we're always being told we need to be more present. It's like, all right, well, go hang out with these people, because they're always in the present. Right?
- [98:43]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. It's beautiful. When I was first lady of California, I went to this daycare center center that was paired with a dementia center. And the kids read stories to the people who had dementia in their assisted living place because they were doing the same puzzles, they were doing the same art, they were on the same trajectory. And it was so beautiful because they didn't kind of think there was anything wrong. And everybody. Everybody was kind of at the same level, right?
- [99:20]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [99:20]
Maria Shriver
It was such a beautiful thing. And I thought, that's such a great model. We haven't really looked into all of these potential models that are out there for how we can live as we get older, how young people can help older people, how they can live together. I think there's a lot of possibility in that. I have a great story about my dad when I was sitting with him when he had Alzheimer's, and. And he said to me, do you hear the fountain? Do you hear the water? And I go, no, that's traffic, Daddy. You're listening to River Road. You can hear the traffic. And he goes, no, no, I hear the water going down in the fountain. I said, no, no, that's the traffic on the highway that you hear. And he goes, no, it's water. I said, it's traffic. And he goes, it's water. And I was like, okay, it's water. He goes, isn't that beautiful? I said, I love the sound of water. He goes, I do, too. I love you sitting here with me listening to the water. I said, yeah, me too, Daddy. I love sitting with you listening to the water. Once I stopped trying to have him be somebody or listen to something or be accurate, and I just got into his brain. We had this beautiful moment because I wasn't fighting with him to be someone that he wasn't. And I think that's a great message for life, for people who don't have Alzheimer's.
- [100:50]
Rich Roll
Yeah. I had a similar experience with my mother recently. I was back in Washington in November, and it's a very challenging situation, but we went out for a walk, walking the dog in Georgetown, and she would just stop and, like, pick up a leaf from the ground and, like, just marvel at it. And, like, look how beautiful this leaf. Like, this is not something my mother would ordinarily do, you know, just able to, like, experience awe and wonder by being forced to, like, the constraints of being so present, you know?
- [101:28]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [101:28]
Rich Roll
And there's beauty in that.
- [101:30]
Maria Shriver
Right?
- [101:30]
Rich Roll
Like, so amidst all the hardship and the tragedy and the challenges of somebody who's asking the same question over and over and over again, there are these, like, glimpses where we can all, like, learn something.
- [101:41]
Maria Shriver
I think, 100%, you know, and I try to write about that a little bit in the book, is poetry has helped me look with awe and wonder at nature. It's helped me slow down and hear the water, look at the trees. Look at at the tree and think about the roots and think about my own roots and think about what I'm holding myself. Like the tree is holding lanterns or the branches are holding up, and I think, what am I holding up? We can learn so much from slowing down from nature and observing these things that we would never. If you had told me I'd be writing about a tree, I'd be like, like what? I'm writing about Jordan, and I'm doing a story about the Middle East. I'm not writing about a tree, and yet I'm writing about a tree, and I'm writing about awe, and I'm writing about wonder, and I'm writing about things that I noticed as I slow down, and I'm having conversations with my father about water when we're listening to traffic.
- [102:45]
Rich Roll
Because you went on this journey of unburdening yourself from the burdens of others. Right. Which gives you like. Yeah, like the sort of seized part or whatever. Like you can kind of be with yourself in a new and different way.
- [102:59]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And I think that that's what's so interesting about life is that you kind of think you know where you're going, but you have no idea where you're going. You think you understand it, but you don't understand it. And all of that is okay. And that's what I try to convey to my kids, that it's. I used to think, oh, I don't know where I'm going and get anxiety and. And right now I have no idea I'm going on tour. I have no idea how my book will do. I have no idea where I'm going. I have no idea. But I close my eyes and I think, when I'm 70, I'm going to be in the yard and I'm going to be surrounded by people who love me, and I'm going to feel enough. And when I'm 80, my hair is going to be flying, and I'm going to feel like I'm enough. And maybe I'll have done ten more extraordinary things. And maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, who knows? And I have to be okay with that and feel that I'm enough and that I can handle that and I'm capable of wherever that path takes me.
- [103:58]
Rich Roll
You seem more than okay with it. You seem excited about it.
- [104:01]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to be this age. I'm excited to be looking forward. I'm excited about the unknown. I'm excited that I know that I have the strength, whatever is coming, that it's coming no matter what I do. And I want to be excited about my life. I want to be excited about living. A lot of people don't get to my age. I've lost friends who don't get to my age. I have healthy children. I'm blessed. I want to make a difference, you know, I believe in family. I believe in love. I believe in faith. I believe in living a meaningful life. I believe that writing helps you find your way forward. I believe in reporting from the front lines of your life to help other people. I believe in publishing books that do that. I believe I'm going to find or be part of a group of people that find a cure for Alzheimer's. I believe I'm going to be part of a group that changes women. And I'm excited about all of that.
- [105:07]
Rich Roll
There's a hopefulness that tracks with the way you end the book. Right. And so, you know, as we kind of begin to wind this down, like, what. What is it that you want people to take away from the book? Like, what is the core message about pursuing a meaningful life, finding your own way home and. And kind of expressing yourself or living your life in a more authentic way.
- [105:32]
Maria Shriver
That that's why you. Why you're here. That. That's the. That's the brass ring. It's not the COVID of a magazine. It's not an award. That what you just said is why we're here. And if you feel like you have done that, if you feel like you're enough, if you feel like you're living a meaningful life, if you feel like you're, you know, able to share your ups and your downs and that if you know that you have the strength. I love the Emerson. That what lies in front of you and lies behind you are tiny matters compared to what lies within you. All of us think we're not strong enough to handle whatever it is that life throws our way, which is why we're fearful. Right. And that we are. And I always say you are, whoever that. Way stronger than you realize. Way stronger that you are an. That you are capable and that you will find your way. Cause you are finding your way. What you're doing right now is part of you finding your way. And that's a beautiful thing. And I love you. I went to Hoffman.
- [106:39]
Rich Roll
Oh, yeah. You really have done it all.
- [106:41]
Maria Shriver
I've done a lot of stuff. And where they say, you know, I see you and I love you. And when I first got there, I was like, stop it. You know, you don't see me. You don't love me. You don't know anything about me. And at the end, I was like, I see you and I love you. And I'm like, wow. For somebody to see you and love you and be compassionate and kind to you and say wherever you are is right where you're meant to be and start where you are. God bless you. That's it.
- [107:08]
Rich Roll
That's all any of us really want. Right?
- [107:10]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [107:11]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [107:11]
Maria Shriver
And that, you know, I see you and thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Thank you for taking the time to read my book. Thank you for sharing your journey of hitting rock bottom and transforming yourself. Thank you.
- [107:27]
Rich Roll
I see you and I love you. And I thank you.
- [107:31]
Maria Shriver
And you haven't even been to Hoffman.
- [107:33]
Rich Roll
I have not. It's been recommended many times. Maybe this is the thing I'm Avoiding. It's like, oh, the thing you're avoiding is the thing you need to do. I wouldn't say I'm avoiding it. I actually would really like to do Hoffman. Yeah. I've had many guests here. Like. Like, they're. I did Hoffman. And I did Hoffman. You know.
- [107:48]
Maria Shriver
You know what I. Nobody recommended. People should have recommended it to me, but nobody. And I have. I got there and I was like, I have no idea why I'm here. I have no idea why I'm here. And I looked it up on the Internet. I was like, where can I go for a week? That's, like, really hard, tough, serious about change. And there it was. I just signed up cold. I didn't know anybody who'd gone. I didn't know anything. And I went. It's kind of like you were guided, though. I was guided. And I feel the same about my book. I'm like. I have no idea. I'm like, here it is. I'm like, I hope people see it and love it.
- [108:25]
Rich Roll
I think they will. Before, as we end this, would you kind of indulge me? And I wanted you to, like, read this. Yeah. Will you read this page? I really like it.
- [108:37]
Maria Shriver
I don't know if I can read it, but, I mean. Oh, yeah. I don't have glasses. This is the first line I'm gonna tell you because I thought about calling this book In Communion.
- [108:48]
Rich Roll
Because.
- [108:49]
Maria Shriver
Because I was in communion. I felt at long last of being in communion with all the different parts of myself. I felt I was in communion with myself. And I'm a very spiritual person. And it came to me in church. And so for a long time, I had the title of it in Communication, and everybody's like, what does that mean? What are you doing? Raising communion?
- [109:13]
Rich Roll
Yeah. We all have a heavy kind of, like, association with that word. I mean, the word communion comes up time and time again throughout the book.
- [109:19]
Maria Shriver
So it was because I felt that I was in communion, and I felt like that's. I feel like in this conversation, I'm in communion with you, and I'm in connection with you. I'm jiving with you. Right. But everybody's like, oh, my God. It's gonna make people think, you know, you're a nun now, and, you know, you're off over here. So I changed it. But. And I say that because the first line is. It's about being in communion with all the different parts of oneself. It's how we mend our hearts and our souls. It's how we find our way home. Ultimately, it's about surrender and salvation. Because I've learned that while our paths vary, we're all on a quest of our own. Your quest can help guide mine, and mine, I hope, can perhaps guide yours. My hope is that while reading these poems, you will feel there is healing and freedom on the other side of the trauma, of the pain, the regret, the judgment you may have experienced or may be experiencing. Freedom from the self you think is you. Freedom from that harsh, dark voice that lives inside so many of us. We all need compassion for ourselves and love for ourselves. We all need to forgive ourselves and accept ourselves. For once all of this is given, healing can arise.
- [110:47]
Rich Roll
That's it.
- [110:47]
Maria Shriver
That's it.
- [110:49]
Rich Roll
That was really beautiful.
- [110:50]
Maria Shriver
It should just be one page. This book.
- [110:52]
Rich Roll
That's it. That's the whole book. Or put it at the end. Not you have it like page one.
- [110:57]
Maria Shriver
Page one. Just read page one and throw it out and put it next to the toilet.
- [111:00]
Rich Roll
That was great. What a gift. That was super fun. Thank you.
- [111:04]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [111:04]
Rich Roll
Yeah, it was really great. I think people are going to love the book.
- [111:07]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [111:08]
Rich Roll
Congrats. This was amazing. We did it. How do you feel? You feel good? Do we do it all?
- [111:13]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [111:14]
Rich Roll
Anything else you want to say? All right. Well, you're always welcome here. Come back whenever you feel like it.
- [111:18]
Maria Shriver
Whenever I feel.
- [111:19]
Rich Roll
That was really fun. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page@richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal planner@meals.rich roll.com if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running while wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the Meal planner and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page@richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. It. See you back here soon. Peace plants.
- [113:07]
Maria Shriver
Namaste.