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- [00:00]
A
Either you got the hustle, you got the education, the expertise, or you have the money. If you don't have education and the expertise, you don't have the money, then you've got the hustle.
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B
No one's going to care more than the people that have skin in the game.
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A
Exactly. No one's going to take care of your property like you do. There's always something that's going to go wrong. Just count on it. All these boomers are retiring. They own all these properties, and they just need to unload them. They had too much money. They didn't know what to do with it.
- [00:21]
B
The boomers hold about 51% of all wealth in America, and the millennials is less than 10. Those that are prepared, educated, that are willing to take a little bit of risk, they're willing to bet on themselves and take action to benefit from all this. The greatest transfer of wealth in American history. It's going down. All right, guys, today I got someone who's doing big things in the multifamily game based out of Atlanta, and he's dressed fresh to death today. I got my man Todd Robinson in the building. What's up, Todd?
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A
How are you? Good, man. Good. How are you doing?
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B
Doing good, man. Looking fresh. And, man, I don't know watches, but Oscar, my guy, is, you know, really, really loves that watch.
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A
He's loving his ap.
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B
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know that the movements kept those things working.
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A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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B
Super cool. So anyways, man, you control a hundred million dollars of assets under management in the multifamily game. How long you been investing in multifamily for?
- [01:15]
A
Since really, since 2018. You know, kind of started small and kind of grew the portfolio alongside my own law practice. So when I decided to start my own firm, kind of was forced into starting my own firm, realizing that multifamily, and in real estate in general was probably the best way to kind of grow general generational wealth. And all the same reasons, you hear people, why they want to get into real estate is why I wanted to get into real estate. So I kind of started small in 2018 and been growing since then.
- [01:48]
B
What are you seeing today with. With cap rates? And, you know, I always say multifamily is. Is. It's an evergreen asset class, right? Because there will never be a replacement for two things. A place for people to sleep, a place for people to store their belongings. That's never going to go anywhere. And so I really feel like, from a risk perspective, multifamily Is is probably the least risky asset class out of there. Out of all the asset classes in commercial roles play, there's no technology that's going to supersede it. And, and so I'm curious for you man, like what are you kind of seeing with the cap rate environment? I know we've been in a high rate environment for the last 48 months, but what are you seeing today with the cap rate environment?
- [02:23]
A
Yeah, it's a good question. And I think cap rates are going to start compressing, right? And what does that mean? That means that the, the supply and demand are going to be as such that if when demand increases, the cap rates typically decrease and when cap rates decreases, values increase. Right. So I, it's funny, I used to not, you know, give a lot of stock into cap rates because it's a fungible number, right? I mean you can, you can change the cap rate just by changing the, the price. Right? It's a function of price and noi. But when you're out there hunting for deals and looking for acquisitions, looking for properties, you really want to know what that cap rate is so that you can compare it with the other sales in the, in the, in the, in the area. So when you're actually on an active acquisition streak, understanding cap rates, understanding what other properties have sold for and then really using that to leverage negotiations with the broker is really critical.
- [03:17]
B
You always say if you're listening to this right now, you're wondering like what is a cap rate? I always say a cap rate is a market's opinion of risk adjusted return. And I think the simplest way to like understand how it works would be like if you take two properties that are like kind. Let's just say it's, they're both similar hotels and one's in Tulsa, Oklahoma in some rural area and this other similar exact look and same hotel is in, you know, the beach of Santa Barbara, California. Well, the investor that's buying the beachfront hotel in Santa Barbara, California is going to accept lower cash flow for the same purchase price because he knows that asset is lower risk. It's much more likely to appreciate a lot more over time versus that asset in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so ultimately that's what drives that lower cap rate. People are willing to pay more for a lower set of cash flow versus the other way around. You go in the Midwest, people want higher cash flow for the same purchase price to make up for the fact that it's not going to appreciate as, as fast over, over time. That's that, that's Kind of how I look at it now, there's a bunch of different layers. You know, it's like, okay, the quality of the asset, the asset class. So we know hotels are going to trade at a higher cap rate than, than multifamily. But you know, I'm kind of curious because I know and I do own some multifamily stuff. Love the asset class. I know in 2021 it was like a lot of the cap rates were on top of each other. A class, B class, C class. I sold a deal in 20, late 21 and it was a 32 unit apartment deal out in Indianapolis, in Greenwood, Indiana. It was called Breeze at 32. You can look it up 6 to 2 Terrace Blvd. I believe, if my math is correct. But anyways, this particular deal we had, we exited the right time and the buyer came in and paid a 3.7 cap rate on trailing twelve actuals, bought that deal for 1.1 and 24 months later, literally renovated half the units. 24 months later, the multifamily deal next door I saw was, was under contract. And I knew the broker, I called the broker and it's a larger asset, is a couple hundred units. And he said, I can get you the same thing. And I, I said, yeah. He goes, yeah, yeah, just stop renovating your units. He goes, people right now will pay more for unrenovated units than they will renovated units. So we stopped and sure enough we got the number that he got next door and so bought it for 1.1. We exited 3.1 and some change, 24 months. And the buyer paid a 3.7 cap rate on trailing 12 month actuals. And he was syndicating the deal.
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A
Wow.
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B
And I'm like, dude, this thing never cash flowed the entire time we owned it. It had plumbing issues, it was 1960s asset. I was like, yeah, good time. Now this is right before the rates went up. And I don't, I should probably look up this asset on costar and see how they're doing. But anyways, at this time I say all this and that the cap rates essentially for a class, B class, C class were on top of each other.
- [06:09]
A
Right.
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B
And I'm sure that's shifted a little bit. What, what does the cap rate kind of environment look like today?
- [06:15]
A
Yeah, I mean it has shifted a little bit, but, but it's really all about location, right? It's about location. Like you said in Risk. I mean, we bought, we bought a property in, in Buckhead in Atlanta, Georgia. Buckhead's kind of like the Swanky part of Atlanta.
- [06:27]
B
Nice. Nice area. Been there.
- [06:28]
A
Yeah, very nice area. We, we bought a 52 unit condominium complex and, you know, it was right behind the St. Regis. We paid 10.5 million for it.
- [06:38]
B
Okay. How many units at 52.
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A
Okay. So it was about 200 a door.
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B
Okay.
- [06:42]
A
To 207. And our cap rate was like 5, 5% cap rate. Right. But that was a core asset, very low risk, given the location. Right. So we were okay with that cap rate. And you run into, you know, this other concept of negative leverage, you probably heard of that, where, where you know the cap rate is going to be lower than your interest rate. Right. Our interest rate on that one was, it was a bridge loan, great bridge lender, by the way, at 6.1%. So our cap rate's lower. So we are in a negative leverage situation. That is a metric to be concerned about. But given the location, given the asset class, given how great the property was, zero deferred maintenance, we were able to ride that risk. And we knew our business plan, we were going to be able to execute on it and essentially sell it. Because we still think the cap rates are going to, are going to, are going to compress. Right. The values are still going to go up. So, you know, if that same property was in, you know, the middle of nowhere, Georgia, it may be a 10 cap. Right. Usually higher, higher cap rates mean, mean more cash flow, but they also mean higher risk. Right. So a lot of people out there chasing. Right. It means higher risk. Right.
- [07:45]
B
And that's the thing people think, people assume, hey, it's a higher cap rate, this is less risk. And it's like, no, the reason.
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A
Right.
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B
This market, in this particular asset is trading at a very high cap rate is because it's, it's considered high risk.
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A
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:00]
B
And generally speaking, the low risk or the low cap rates are markets and asset classes and buildings that are, generally speaking, low risk. There's a lot of buyer demand and that's what drives down that, that cap rate. But you know, to your point about, you know, the cap rates and leverage and all that sort of thing, you know, here in SoCal, for example, know when the rates were all time low, multifamily out here, some of this, the nicer product was trading in the twos. Like we're talking two and a half cap rate, three cap rate. And so you would have to put down these investors would almost have to pay cash to have any sort of cash flow or if they got debt in order to service the debt and meet the DSCR requirement, they have to put down like 60%, 65% and you're only leveraging about 35% of the purchase price. And so you know, that was the environment. Now those cap rates here that were trading in the threes are now trading in the four and a halfs, you know what I mean? And so we've seen some inflation and cap right here. But you know, I just kind of curious like what that looks like for you because here's the other thing. Just because you're buying at a three and a half, four cap or in your instance 5% cap. Well, I'm sure you guys have some different levers that you're going to implement to add value, increase the NOI. And so maybe you bought it at a 5, but after, you know your CapEx plan and implementing, you know, your operations and these different levers that you're going to implement now maybe you're operating at closer to a 9 or 10 cap, right? Which is now going to give you a nice arbitrage.
- [09:26]
A
100%. 100%. I mean that's, that's value add investing in a nutshell, right? I mean the same strategy Blackstone uses to make their billions of dollars multifamily investors are using and we're teaching how to do that, right? It's, it's. You buy it, right, you fix it and you sell it, right. And so the reason why this particular deal was, was a really good win for us was because this operator, this owner we bought it from, had no debt on it. They had too much money, they didn't know what to do with it. They were, you know, they were, there was no institutionalization of the asset meaning they were renting out for a thousand unit, thousand dollars a door and then another one would be seventeen hundred dollars a door, right? There was no, their, their, their management was really bad. So there was management inefficiencies. There was tons of just organic upside in the rents. And so yeah, we're going to, we're going to push. No, I, and then, and then either refinance it and pull our cash out or sell it for, for hopefully a large profit.
- [10:19]
B
So yeah, what's your guys typical buy box kind of look like today?
- [10:23]
A
I would say typical buy box anywhere between you know, 5 and 20 million purchase size. You know, we like, you like to look for us pretty strong cash on cash return, 8% or greater if possible, 78%, 7, 8% depending on location. You know, usually looking for you know, 18 to 20% internal rate of returns. And typically a 2x multiple on equity. That's what a lot of our investors are really wanting.
- [10:54]
B
And what's the target hold period for you guys?
- [10:55]
A
So usually three to five years. Three to five, okay, three to five years.
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B
Yep. And you guys like the steeper value add stuff or, or are more stabilized with some, some inefficiencies.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah, exactly. We look main more stabilized deals with, with management inefficiencies and you know, some organic upside. Right. I don't really like the huge value add deals, right. That require construction crews and GCs. And yeah, you can make a lot of money, but there's also way more risk. Right. And so the stuff even that I'm teaching is to, to our students is that look for the easy, low hanging fruit, right. Cause there's ton of those, tons of those deals out there. Look for mom and pop owners, look for properties that are just kind of old and tired, kind of like, you know, some hotels that you're working on, it just needs a refresh. Right. The owner, you know, out of state ownership is a big one. If the owners are out of state, they're typically not going to have their eye on the ball. Like yeah, the property manager's there and they're managing the property, but who's really taking care of it? Managing and taking care of it are two different things, right? So if those opportunities definitely still exist, and especially in this boomer economy, right, all these boomers are retiring, they own all these properties and they just need to unload them. So yeah, the opportunities, yeah, I mean
- [12:04]
B
you're calling it, man, this is the greatest transfer of wealth in American history. It's going down. We got, you know, a ton of boomers retiring over the next seven years. And I think currently, last time I looked, the boomers hold about 51 of all wealth in America and the millennials is less than 10. And so think about that, that wealth transfer that's about to go down. And so I think those that are, you know, prepared, educated, that are, you know, willing to take a little bit of risk, they're willing to bet on themselves and take action. Most importantly, I think are going to benefit from all this, this wealth transfer like you're doing right now and a lot of your, your members with the multifamily deal makers is doing. So I'm curious for you, you know, for someone listening to this and they want to get into their first multifamily deal, what's your advice in terms of buy box? Do you say, hey, go, go take down something large and go raise money and bring in partners? Or do you say, hey, go, go take down something small that's a little bit easier, that's going to get you in the game?
- [12:57]
A
Yeah, good question. And I think it depends on what they can offer, right, what they can offer to, to the team. Because as you know, real estate's team sport, right? It's hard to do this by yourself. It's hard to go find a deal, get a lender, network with brokers, find investors, understand, you know, understand the underwriting, execute a business plan, manage the asset and make a profit all by yourself. Right? That's just hard to do. So, but someone getting in for the very first deal, I, I like to advocate to start small, you know, 10 to 50 units. Ideally don't do anything with duplexes or quad plexes. That's single family, that's just souped up single family investing. But definitely start small and then build your team. Right, but if somebody, if somebody actually has some capital, maybe they're a corporate executive and they've, they're kind of taking some time off from their corporate job and they want to go invest, they've got some capital raised or not raised, but just kind of stored away. You know, you, you could look at getting into bigger deals, right? It's almost easier to get funding and investors for bigger deals than it is for smaller deals. I've seen that as well. But there is, there is kind of a ceiling when you're thinking about how much capital you need to raise and then how much you know you have and how much can, do you think you can leverage with your, with, with your network? So a lot of guys that I, that I work with, you know, you can, I'll say to them, you know, we'll train them on how to, how to, how to network with investors, the whole, the whole deal. But if they can't do anything, they can at least put in the sweat equity and underwrite. You know, you be a bird dog, right? I always say there's three ways to get involved in the deal. Either, either you got the hustle, you got the education and the expertise, or you have the money. So you gotta have one of those three. And if you don't have education and the expertise, you don't have the money, then you've got the hustle, then you're out there bird dogging deals, calling brokers, driving by properties, trying to find something to bring back to the team to execute on.
- [14:48]
B
Yeah, and to your point, I mean, I think it starts with the education you got to be able to, like, you got to know the lingo and you got to be able to talk the lingo because when you talk to, you know, brokers, you know, I think kind of like 95% of all commercial real estate transactions are going, they transacted through a broker. So these brokers, regardless asset class, whether it's hotels or multifamily, they are the gatekeepers of these deals. They've been building relationships with a lot of these owners for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And so when these owners are finally ready to sell, it's like these brokers know first and number two, it's like these brokers know, hey, if this goes well, they're going to be first in line to, to represent them for all their other assets that they want to sell. And so why would they bring a good opportunity to someone that they don't feel confident in that can perform? And so when you meet these brokers and it's, it's not just, you know, hey, this is what I'm looking for, like, you got to actually build real relationships with these brokers. You got to establish that trust, become their friends. Like one of the brokers that sold me to my early multifamily deals, he invests with us now with Summer's capital.
- [15:52]
A
Nice.
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B
And we're like friends. We're friends. Like, we're legitimate friends. Right. And so that's what I mean. Like, you got to build real relationships with these brokers. You can't just treat them like animals. And, and if you do that at scale, you're going to get a lot of off market deal flow and a lot of really good deal flow. But it all starts with knowing the lingo and being able to talk. Because if you can't talk and you got 30 seconds when you call a broker and they're going to determine in the first 30 seconds if you're someone they can take seriously or not.
- [16:18]
A
Yep. Yeah. They want to know if you're a closer. Right. Are you a tire kicker or are you a closer? And how do you prove yourself to be a closer? Just like you said, you've got to have a presence, right? You've got to have some branding, you've got to have a real company. One of the my biggest pet peeves is do not email anybody. If you're trying to get into this business from a Gmail account, you just, you're automatically laughed out of the room. And I, I, I've had, I have a story where, you know, I was working on a deal in Houston. And I connected this family office in New York that I know they were gonna, it was a huge value add deal. They were gonna Invest, you know, 10 or $15 million into this deal in Houston. And I connected my client to the, to the, to the family office and he emails them with a Gmail account. The family office calls me up 10 minutes later, who is this guy? He doesn't even care enough about his own company to actually get a proper email address, a professional email address, and just said, no, I'm not doing the deal, right. So those little things really matter when you're presenting yourself to brokers. And then the other thing on that is for someone brand new getting into this game, you're not going to have the credibility, right? So either you got to take the time to establish it and what I say, fake it till you make it right there. With this day and age of social media and LinkedIn and all, you can look like an expert just by posting stuff. Stuff, right, but still become an expert and still learn it. But then you partner with someone who's, who's more experienced, right? You ride the coattails of someone who's done this before that can vouch for you, that can, can give, lend you that credibility to help get your deal. And the last thing I'll say about brokers is for every on market deal, for every broker, you know, broker's got 10, 10 on market deals, they've got probably 15 pocket listings, right? And they've got, they've got pocket listings that their, their analysts have called these sellers, they've called these owners and they're saying no, I don't want to list it, I don't want to list it, but if you get an offer this amount, I'll take it, right? So they don't want to properly list it because that just signals, provides a signal to the market. So that's how you get access to off market deals is really through the on market relationships with these brokers.
- [18:18]
B
100%. And to your point it's like hey, like get clear on your search criteria, your ability to buy, if your ability to buy is up to 5 million, like you shouldn't be wasting time on these calls with brokers that have 20, 20, 30 million dollar deals. You're just wasting everyone's time at that point. But get clear on the market selection, get clear on who those brokers are that have transacted a lot of those deals in those markets and then go build those relationships with them. And you know, if you got a list of, you know, 65, 75 brokers in the markets you want to be in. Well, now you're going to have a lot of deal flow and to your point, it's right. A lot of it's right time, right place. Checking in on Monday. Hey, happy Monday, Todd. Just checking in. Wonder if you might be working on any opportunities that might fit my criteria. Again, this is what I'm looking for. And often it's right time, right place. These guys might say, hey, you know what? You know what, Rich? I'm actually working on something I haven't had a chance to do any marketing on. I just got the financials. Let me send it over to you. Let me know your thoughts. And now you got first crack at a pocket listing because it was right time, right place, you in the broker's ear at the right time.
- [19:17]
A
Exactly.
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B
You know, exactly. And so, and I think the other big thing that you made a lot of good points, the other big thing that a lot of my broker buddies tell me is like, you as the investor, just simply by responding to a broker and telling them why a deal doesn't work and giving them some, some feedback and saying, hey, thanks for sharing is not going to be a fit for us. Here's why. And this is what we're looking for. Just doing that puts you in the top 10 percentile of all investors out there.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Communicating, right. It's so basic, but it's so important because it's, it's what makes and makes or breaks. Especially in this day and age where everyone's getting bombarded with so many things, you know, and everyone's getting so many emails, like to actually pick up the phone, have a conversation with a broker, develop that personal relationship with them is, is going to make all the difference. Yeah.
- [20:04]
B
And I think to your point, you said, you know, if it's your first deal, you know, well, okay, it's your first deal. A lot of these brokers, a lot of these lenders only want to work with people that have the experience. Well, it's like, well, that's why it's important to get in the right rooms. You know, go leverage what you can leverage. Go leverage a property manager with experience get into a room like the multifamilydealmakers.com that you have. Right. You know, so now the conversation changes. Right. I'm sure a member of your community, now they're calling a broker, hey, my name is, my name is Rich. I'm a multifamily investor and I'm part of a Multifamily investment group where collectively we own, you know, $500 million of multifamily assets. Wonder if you got a couple of minutes to go over my search criteria. Boom. Now in that 10 second conversation, you just establish your credibility. This broker is not going to be question your, your, your Track record.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, 100%. You know, that's, and that's one of the reasons why I created Multifamily Dealmakers, which is really, you know, it's a multifamily investing community for aspiring investors learning how to grow and scale the real estate portfolio. Right. Specifically using other people's money. Because I saw that was really lacking out there in the info space, in the coaching space, the Internet space of these, you know, guys that were, they have, you know, maybe one or two deals under their belt and they think they're gonna, gonna go coach people and tell people how to, how to buy real estate, invest in real estate. And I was just seeing a lot of bad advice when it comes to deal structuring. Not understanding the difference between debt and equity, not knowing the rules of, of securities laws of how to actually put a deal together, right under, not understanding how to communicate properly with investors, understanding what you can and can't say. And so me, because I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a commercial real estate lawyer at heart. I've got my own firm in Atlanta. I've got the legal acumen in the background to really help guide investors. And I was kind of doing that organically through my law practice anyway. And I had, you know, some, some clients were like, you should really kind of teach this stuff and coach people how to do it because all the advice we're seeing out there is, is not working. And so taking the legal acumen with my actual deal making experience, owning over a thousand units of apartments really kind of created the perfect storm to, to form multifamily dealmakers. And so what we provide is really that one on one mentorship for new investors that want to get into this game.
- [22:20]
B
That's really good. That's really good. I always say this game's about being in the, in the right rooms. And I think one of the reasons why I've been able to see a lot of growth since my air traffic control days, you know, six and a half, seven years ago, is because I was never afraid to get in the right rooms. And I was never cheap to invest into myself and being in the right rooms. And you know, often, you know, you get into a community or you know, some sort of Mentorship. It's like that one connection you make, that one nugget that's like, oh, my gosh, that's like, you know, $500,000 piece of advice that just shapes your entire, like, trajectory. And so that's really how you have to look at these, these, these types of rooms. But I'm curious for you, man. You know, I think lending is, is one of those things right there. That's. If you get into commercial real estate, you get into buying multifamily, like, having the credibility and the track record is going to be big with the lending. I remember when we, when I first got my first multifamily agency loan with Freddie Mac, well, you need a liquidity. You need, first of all, you need a net worth equal to or greater than the loan amount. I didn't have that when I was refinancing my first multifamily deal into agency. So it's like, you gotta get creative. You don't just stop there and give up. Well, I brought in a. A partner, gave him 10% of the deal. He had the net worth requirement, and he signed on the loan, personally guaranteed it. Well, then, boom, it got me in the game. And so you gotta get into the rooms with people that can come and help you and push past. And now I'm at a point where I can pg my own deals and I can call. I got the higher net worth now, and I can, I can pg and be the sole guarantor of these loans, which is nice. But my point is, at the beginning, you got it. You got to, you got to figure out whatever it is to push through and get these deals right.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah, that's, that's another reason why partnering, what I call strategic partnerships, are so important to get started. The net worth, the net worth and liquidity requirement, it's not just net worth. You need to have a liquidity. Typically it's net worth of a loan amount and liquidity of 10% of the loan amount. So if you're getting a $5 million loan, you need to have a net worth of at least 5 million bucks. You have liquidity of $500,000 that they can verify. So you're sending bank statements, brokerage account statements, bitcoin statements, whatever you can to show that you meet that liquidity requirement. And if you don't have that, you've got to go find somebody that does. And within multifamily dealmakers, we actually, I've been very intentional about who I've brought in, and we have really some high net Worth hitters, you know, developers out of Boston, you know, guys worth 40, $50 million that I've said to them, come in, you know, you may have the opportunity to KP someone's deal. Right. Because I'm, I'm trying to be very intentional to curate the group.
- [24:57]
B
Can you define KP for the audience?
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, kp. So key principle, just like what you were talking about that person, that, and they, they have the experience and they have the net worth and the liquidity. They're going to have to sign on the, on the usually non recourse loan. So the personal assets aren't necessarily at stake. But within the community we've, we've curated a group of KP's that people can use and tap. Also capital raisers. Right. Again, talking about what's your role in the group? On, on a team, an acquisition team, what's your role? Are you, you the guy who's getting the loan, like working with the lender, making sure they get what they need? Are you the guy doing the due diligence on the property? Are you the one that's in charge of investor relations or are you the one actually raising capital? Right. There are people out there that all they do is raise capital. They don't want to deal with operations. Right. So we have a lot of those members in Multifamily Dealmakers. And so my, my goal in running the community is really putting all these people together and getting deals done.
- [25:50]
B
Where can folks go if they want to learn more about your community?
- [25:53]
A
Yeah, so really on Instagram is, is kind of our biggest, our biggest funnel right now through, you know, there's some websites, some links there you can find. And then also Multifamily Dealmakers is where we kind of run our newsletter funnel. And then you can sign up to book a call if you need to.
- [26:07]
B
Okay, so it's multifamily dealmakers.com. go ahead and check them out. I'm curious now I want to switch gears here a little bit. What are some of the value add levers that, that you like to pull when you come in? Bodies, apartment building? Because there's a lot of levers out there.
- [26:22]
A
Right.
- [26:22]
B
We see them on the hotel game. But I'm curious for you in the multifamily side, what are some of those levers that, that you like to pull?
- [26:28]
A
Yeah, so you're the first thing you want to look at is well, what's the easiest thing to do first? Right. I'm thinking about our property in Milledgeville. You know, something that's got. Deferred maintenance is one way to add value. But you're not going to get a lot of bang for your buck. Right. It's going to be something that you're going to tell in your marketing materials when you go sell it again. Oh, I've replaced all the wiring. Right. We've got new roofs, we've got a new, we repave the parking lot. You can't really quantify that into dollars though. Yes. It increases the overall look of the property, makes it look better. But the real value add comes from the tenant experience in the property. And the first thing that multimillion investors will look at are the kitchens. Right. How do you upgrade the kitchens? You know, because these are usually one bedrooms, two bedrooms, two bedroom apartments. So new lighting, backsplashes, upgraded countertops, put putting in LV and LVM flooring instead of carpet painting. I mean those kinds of things. That, that's really what takes a classic unit to an upgraded unit. Right. And then the appliance package is another thing. Kind of the lowest grade appliance package or I guess the black. Right. The, the black fridge, the black stove, then you've got the white. Right. The white fridge, white. So. And then stainless steel is kind of the top of the line.
- [27:46]
B
I personally prefer black over white. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:49]
A
I was saying maybe, maybe white's the lowest. And then black.
- [27:51]
B
Okay, okay.
- [27:51]
A
And then stainless steel. But, but in your underwriting, when you're underwriting these deals, this is what you have to kind of tease out. You have to know how much it's going to cost to do that and then what kind of rent bump are you going to get? And so you have to look at the market and if the one next door is the exact same style of property and they've upgraded all their units and they're getting $500 more a month in rent for these upgraded units. Well, there's your evidence right there that if you do the same thing to your property, you can achieve those same rents. So ensuring that you've done the underwriting, you understand, you know how to add the value you've costed out. You know, you've got quote, actual quotes from contractors and then you've added that to your capex budget. That's how you understand that that's basically what your business plan is when you go out and acquire these deals.
- [28:39]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And then what's the best way to you come up with your, you know, your assumptions in terms of what rents you think you could achieve?
- [28:48]
A
Yeah. So again, I Think it's, it's market research. It's market research. What, what are the rents achieving in your, in that area? Right. And you got to do some market studies. You got to look at the HUD data, you got to look at, you know, costar Yardi. What are the general rents for that particular area? Because if you're thinking you're going to achieve rents way more than what your competitors achieving down the street, then you know, you're just not going to have a. It's not going to work. Right. And then there's also, you know, that's really value add investing. But there's also other groups out there that will do like full gut renovations. Right. There's a group in, in Atlanta that I forget the name of them now, but.
- [29:26]
B
So they're like moving walls and plumbing.
- [29:27]
A
Oh yeah, they're. They're spending $20,000 per unit. Yeah, right.
- [29:31]
B
So there's, there. And now would you say that they're almost like taking it from like a B class to like an A. Right type of thing?
- [29:37]
A
Correct. Yeah.
- [29:37]
B
Interesting. Interesting.
- [29:38]
A
Yeah.
- [29:39]
B
And so they're getting huge lifts with the, with the rent, right?
- [29:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, they're getting you. But then, but then you have to understand when you're looking at your value add strategy, you can't really use it. That's kind of an outlier because you're not going to spend $20,000 on a unit and get that same rent bump that they got. Right. So it's really about what's the strategy? That's a repositioning strategy, I would say, versus a value add kind of value add strategy.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah. Now how about, you know, some of the things that you're doing to save on, on costs, such as maybe billing back for water, you know, submetering the water or some markets you can do rubs, some of those things. What does that look like?
- [30:15]
A
So yeah, billing back for water is a huge one. Right. All the utilities. Are your tenants paying utilities or not? They should be and they can, and you can build that back for them and that's an immediate revenue generating stream. The other thing is management. Right. Do you have. I own a management company.
- [30:34]
B
Oh, you guys self manage, right?
- [30:35]
A
Well, we don't. So I have a, I have a partial interest in a management company that I started with some other buddies and I've started using that company for our, our, our properties.
- [30:46]
B
That's good.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, but they don't. I mean, eventually we're going to vertically, vertically integrate. I'm going to buy out the other partners and have it as a part of Iron Street Capital. But on the management side, understanding what their costs are because those management, property management companies, they have so many sneaky costs. Right. Like the onsite manager is going to get bonuses for doing this and doing that and leasing bonuses and construction costs and oh, they got to walk the property. That's an extra fee and there's a fee for this and fee for that. So make sure you're really reading those property management agreements very closely.
- [31:14]
B
Yeah, I mean even repair maintenance, you know they're bringing in vendors, they're bringing in contractors to fix certain things. A lot of these property management companies are going to take a split that, a 20%, 30% split on some of that stuff. So you don't got to watch that. We're in the hotel game and so you know the hotel game out of all these asset classes is probably the least passive. You really have to push and pull and be like really paying close attention to what's going on to get these things to really perform. And so for us like it's not an option to not self manage. So we're, we're vertically integrated and we got, we got the hospitality brand Summers collection which is kind of our arm to where we manage and I got a couple leadership positions on a team where between the two of them they got 30 years of hotel management experience. Now hotels, you can't go and use third party. Like it's just I'm not going to go buy these boutiques and then hand it over to third party and be like hey you guys go do your thing.
- [32:05]
A
Right, right.
- [32:05]
B
Not going to, it's not going to end well. I know that and I'm kind of a control freak now. Multif family, I feel like you can, you can go either route. You could go third party if you want, you could go this route. But I think one of the biggest challenges I'd love to hear your thoughts with using third party in the multi family game is, is kind of when you're, you're not large enough to really justify the payroll to have on site staff and you're, you're, you're, you're, you're not the same size as some of these fourplexes and eight plexes but maybe you're a 32 unit building like the one we had in Indianapolis, you're dealing with some of these more mom and pop third party property management companies that maybe the bulk of their experience and portfolio is single family, some fourplexes and then they have a 16 unit. They might have a 32 unit that they manage, but it's not big enough to attract some of these more institutional property management companies. What is the solution for those types of properties?
- [32:53]
A
It's a tough spot to be in and that's those smaller deals are just going to require more attention by the owner and you're going to just going to pay a higher property management fee. Right. Like you really, you really get true like economies of scale and more efficiencies from a dollar perspective when you're at a hundred units or more because you can justify an on site person and you can drive, because the revenue is going to be so much higher, you can typically drive that pricing down with your property manager and you can pay 3, 4% property management fee versus 7 or 8%. Right. And so this, that's why that's kind of a downside of buying smaller units is that you're going to pay more in management. And, and you know, we were talking about this earlier, like no one's going to take care of your property like, like you do. Right. There's a difference between managing a property and caring about a property actually. Like, you know, yeah, the property manager can cash the checks, respond to tenant complaints, drive occupancy, but are they, are they paying attention to the little things?
- [33:50]
B
Yeah.
- [33:50]
A
Right.
- [33:51]
B
Yeah. No one's going to care more than the people that have skin in the game.
- [33:54]
A
Exactly.
- [33:55]
B
You know.
- [33:56]
A
Yeah. And every property management company, at least where I'm from, they all talk shit about each other. You know, it's like, oh, don't you though they're bad. Don't use them. Oh, don't use them. They're bad. And they all, and no one's really happy with every, any property management company that they, they have because everyone feels like they're not, you know, they're just not taking care of it the way an owner would. Right. So, so, and I've always heard becoming vertically integrated and having your own property management really doesn't make sense unless you're at like a thousand units or more. Because it's a ton of hr, right. A ton of people management, a ton of headaches. You know, you are now that is not passive. Right? You are actively managing that.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah, absolutely. But on the flip side, if you use third party, you still got to actively manage the third party. At least you should be.
- [34:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, you got to manage the manager.
- [34:43]
B
That's weekly meetings. You know, having the right KPIs holding them accountable. Any issues, if anything is not performance, like hey, you gotta, you Gotta sit there and fix it. You're still, you're still, you know, responsible for all that stuff. Now, you brought up a good point. You said with these smaller properties, you're going to have to be more hands on. And we, that 32 unit deal that I'm talking about, we were very hands on because it's. For one, it was out of state, but number two, we're renovating half these units and then, and then covet happens, right? So everyone's on lockdown. And so realize, like, this property management company, they're not going to lease up these units for us. And so our occupancy dipped a little bit. And so I was like, well, we gotta get creative. And so what we did to get creative was, and we would, we would test the property management company, like submit a, an inquiry online and see how long it would take them for them to respond.
- [35:28]
A
Like a secret shopper.
- [35:29]
B
Yeah, it'd be like, it'd be like four or five days before you even get a response. That's not going to work. You know, so what we did to get creative and people always say, like, oh, you get into deals, what if this happens? What if that happens? I'm like, dude, all those risks are real and they're going to happen. And so it's like how you respond to those things when they do happen is what's going to ultimately decide the outcome and the success of any project you get into. And so what we did was we set up a, we set up a Facebook marketplace and Craigslist, but Facebook Marketplace was, was really good to us back then. I don't know if it still is today, but we, we created these listings and we marketed them. We control all the lead flow. And then I called, I went on Zillow and I found the local real estate agents in the area. And I found this, this local realtor, female, younger female. She lived like two blocks from this apartment building. And I just called her, picked up the phone on Zillow. They got the agent cell phone numbers. I called her and said, hey, if you want to make some extra cash, we're looking to, you know, lease these units up. All you got to do, we get the leads. All you got to do is go meet them at the property, show them the property, and then, and then literally once they're done, we'll take it from there and, and then pay them a payer fee. And that was it. I was like, we'll get, we'll give you a split. And she was stoked. It was like Extra income for her. And, and so, boom, we set her up and sure enough, we started, like, really, man, in these, like, these Facebook marketplaces.
- [36:48]
A
Why wasn't your property manager doing that? Because it was Covid.
- [36:52]
B
Well, it's just third party, right?
- [36:54]
A
Never.
- [36:54]
B
We're talking like these guys are never going to care as much as, you know, respond five days later. They don't have the staff, they don't, they don't care. They don't own the asset. And they were referred to us by a few people in the, in the group or in the, the industry. But we just took it upon ourselves. We're like, you know, what if we're going to lease these units up and get top dollar, like, we got it, we got to do the work and we're out of state, you know, doing it. And so we made it happen. And sure enough, we leased all these units up and, you know, we had a nice exit. Right. So I, I say all this in that, you know, when you get in the game, there's going to be fires to put out, there's going to be problems to solve. Like it's inevitable. And you just, if you have the wherewithal, you're in the right rooms, you have the resources, you gotta just have the confidence that, that you're gonna figure it out. And if you have that, like, dog in you, there's no problem that you can't solve.
- [37:42]
A
Yeah, I, I call it the, the fire in the belly. You know, you've got that fire in the belly and you're not gonna just sit around and let things happen to you. You're gonna go, go out and fix it and do something about it then. Yeah. And, and to your point, there's always something that's gonna go wrong. Just count on it. And you're not gonna, you're not gonna think of what it is. You're not gonna know. Like, our, our property we bought at the end of Last year is a 59 unit in Millage Village, or kind of a smaller market, tertiary market. It was on the fence for us, but we went ahead and closed on it because it was actually, it was actually a student deal. Right? It was a student that, you know, he brought, he was in multi. Million deal makers. He is a multi. He brought the deal, but he couldn't qualify for the loan. And he had some, you know, he didn't, he couldn't, he couldn't raise the capital either. So, like, what are you going to do? He already put down his earnest money and so we were helping him you know, kind of figure things out and, you know, getting, getting close to the end of the due diligence period. And then that's where I stepped in and said, okay, well, let me come in and help you. I'll qualify for the loan. Let's use this lender over here. I have a relationship with them. I'll be the PG on it. And you just do the asset management. And it was, it was, it was the way for him to get his first deal.
- [38:51]
B
Deal done.
- [38:51]
A
Right?
- [38:52]
B
Yeah.
- [38:52]
A
Um, and I ended up bringing, I brought in another strategic partner from the group to raise the capital for it. Right. So we went ahead and made the deal that way. But we had, we had really, we had some occupancy dips, right? And I think there was some real lessons learned. He actually moved on site to the property and was. That's great, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's the best way to learn, right? Yeah, you get super close to the tenants. You understand all the work order issues. But we just, we just didn't have the right management team in place. The actual on site person was just not, not cut, not cutting it. And so we ended up. And it's funny, you, you talk about managing the manager. You got to hold their feet to the fire, you know. So we're having weekly asset management calls. Like occupancy dipped down to like 69%. Right. Guys, we're very barely paying the mortgage here, right. But luckily we raised enough capital to have reserves, right. And so we're able to pull from some of those reserves to pay the mortgage and pay the utilities and the bills and all of that because we knew something was going to happen. Right. This is, this is just how things go. But now we're trending upwards of 85%. Kudos to our management team. They've been doing a great job. But yeah, it's. Property management is not an easy business.
- [40:01]
B
And I'm curious, what was the one key that allowed you guys or the one unlock that allowed you to go from 65% up to 85%?
- [40:08]
A
You know, it was, it was one thing we did is we did, we did surveys of the tenants. We said, hey, what do you guys want to see around here? What do you want more of? What do you want less of? What's working, what's not working? We got a lot of feedback from them. We also were going hard on apartments.com and I don't know if you know this or not, but Zillow is apparently now almost better than Apartments.com.
- [40:29]
B
really?
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, for advertising rental units. So we're using that. We had to, we had to offer some concessions. And then we just had talk about that fire in the belly. The regional for this particular manager was just. They knew they were going to lose this property if they don't fix this occupancy. And I just, I was very clear with them. I said, we will, I will fire you tomorrow. This thing's not at 90% in the next three months. And so when I was flying out here from Atlanta, I got the text message like, guess What? We're at 85%. So you just gotta, you gotta stay on top of them because again, at the end of the day, it's not their money, it's not their liability. Right.
- [41:04]
B
Yeah. I'm curious with AI, like, how is AI kind of shifting the way things are done on the, on the multifamily side? Maybe it's on the property management side, leasing up units. I'm curious kind of how, like, how it's shifting.
- [41:17]
A
Yeah.
- [41:18]
B
Family, that's a good question.
- [41:19]
A
It's, it's, it's huge. But I don't know if it's, if it's being used the best way. I think the biggest, the biggest way it's being used is in underwriting and in preparing pitch decks and offering memorandums. You know, AI can do it in 30, 30 seconds. Now, right now, I would say you still have to verify it. You still have to go through, use your Excel spreadsheet and make sure it's all correct. But we use, like, we started using this. It's called Intella cre and it's an AI driven platform. But you put in all the data and it'll, it spits out your pitch deck in no time. Right. In 10 minutes. Right. So I think that's the biggest thing I haven't really, on the property management side, I think, like in the class A space, they're using it a lot for, like, managing packages and tenant communications and things like that, but responding to work orders and whatnot. But we're not really doing that in the value add space as much. I think it's more on the, on the, the marketing side.
- [42:20]
B
Now, is the underwriting a lot quicker now with AI?
- [42:22]
A
Yeah, 100%.
- [42:23]
B
What's really shifted there in the underwriting game?
- [42:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really the preparation of the whole package of the, of the pitch deck. Right. You used to, you know, back in the day, you'd be on PowerPoint for, for three hours putting your pitch Deck together and now you can just put it in, you know, AI and. And it spits it out in, in. In 10 seconds.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah, right. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. How big is the, the ancillary kind of fees with, with this game? So, you know, I know with the hotel game, you know, I'll look at a p. L. As soon as I get it from like a seller and I'll be like, okay, like, are they charging the ancillary revenue? I know what we can charge. So it's like we typically have a resort fee or amenity fee at all the properties. And that's anywhere from 14 to, you know, even as high as $30 a night, depending on season per room. And then early check in fee, late checkout fee. We got pet fees. People pay 75 bucks a night to bring their pet. And then bottle of wine, champagne, all this sort of stuff. And that all adds up. I mean, this is like pretty substantial revenue over the course of 12 months even for a small hotel. And so, you know, I know right away if, if some of these mom and pop sellers are not implementing any of that stuff, that's, that's an easy lift right there. So I'm kind of curious what some of the ancillary fees on, on the multifamily side, what are some of those look like?
- [43:38]
A
Yeah, not, not as many. But you know, the biggest thing is probably pet fees. Right. So obviously paying a pet.
- [43:45]
B
Pet rent.
- [43:45]
A
Pet rent, yeah.
- [43:46]
B
What, what do those go for these days?
- [43:48]
A
You know, it's, it's 25, 50 bucks a month to have your pet. Usually have like a fee up front. Like, oh, you want a pet, it's $400 up front and then it's 25 bucks a month. Right. Another interesting strategy that we've looked at using is assigned parking spots. Right. So you want to park right in front of your unit. Then you're going to pay us 15 bucks a month to do that. And we'll stripe all the, we'll put numbers in all the spots and it's first come, first serve. Right. So whoever has the best. Whoever, whoever comes in and tells us they want to park here, then they can get that there.
- [44:19]
B
Yeah. How about storage? Is that, is that something?
- [44:21]
A
Yeah, storage is another one right now you have to, depending on if you have the capability there. But our Buckhead property has kind of these storage units under the buildings. Now we'd have to go in and kind of renovate them, make them look a little better. But, but yeah, the storage for sure is a big one.
- [44:37]
B
Yeah.
- [44:37]
A
Right.
- [44:37]
B
Are you guys doing any stuff to implement like in unit laundry for the assets that don't have it?
- [44:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. Laundry income is huge. Right. So you can either have a laundry facility on site, whether it's coin operated. A lot of people don't know that. Those are, those are all rented machines. Right. So they're not, you know, the owner doesn't actually own them. And even from a legal perspective, it becomes a title issue because there's a, that that laundry company has an actual lien against the property for those units. And so when you're closing, you've got to get what's called an S.N.D.A. from this company to have them subordinate their lien to the new lender because it actually, it's called runs with the land. Right. So it actually goes from owner to owner. You can't really, you can't really pull them out.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting.
- [45:22]
A
Yeah. But in unit, you know, in unit laundry facilities obviously are going to be more valuable than, than, than not.
- [45:30]
B
What's, what's the sentiment like as far as the, the future, the forecast of multifamily kind of from a macro perspective as you look into 2026, 2027 from like a supply demand standpoint?
- [45:41]
A
Yeah, I think, I think it's on the upswing. I think, I think it really is. There was a stat, I read recently, at least in Atlanta, and again, it's market dependent, market driven. In Atlanta, rent growth is projected to be 4.2% this year in 26.
- [45:55]
B
That's great.
- [45:56]
A
It's great. I mean, it was zero, you know, and we're underwriting to zero because you're not assuming you're going to grow at all back in 2020, 2021, you know, you were, you were, you would project 4% rent growth pretty easily based on one month of P and L. Right. And because you, you would make money from when you put the deal under contract to when you closed just because the markets appreciated so much. Right. But deals now, like we put an offer on a 14 million dollar 100 unit property in Atlanta and the broker was like, man, back in the heyday, 2020, 2021, this was trading for 250, you know, $250,000 a unit.
- [46:29]
B
Damn. So 2.5 or 25 million?
- [46:31]
A
Yeah, we put it, we put an offer at 14 million.
- [46:34]
B
Damn.
- [46:34]
A
Just shows you like the market fluctuations, Right.
- [46:37]
B
How much have you seen cap rates shift in, in Atlanta from 2021 to now?
- [46:41]
A
I mean, they've they've shifted quite a bit, but I mean, just again, not, not so much in the core markets. Right, but they've definitely creeped up. They've creeped up because the market's just. That's just how the market has, has really handled it. But I think because we have, we have some supply and demand issues in Atlanta in a good way. Meaning, you know, the, the supply. We were so supply constrained for a long time. The developers kind of stopped supplying new apartments, but the demand kept creeping up. And so now we're at a place where, you know, cap rates are going to start compressing, I think.
- [47:19]
B
I interviewed Department Rock star Robert Martinez out in Houston a few years ago, actually went out there and we did a nice podcast in his joint on this show. But he had done like 15 successful, like deals. And he had this one, a class deal that he had bought and it went back to the, the bank. But he said where he got caught was people were doing a lot of Airbnb arbitrage back then. It was very popular, remember companies like Saunder. And so he bought this a class building and, and like a lot of the leases were people that were doing Airbnb arbitrage. And he didn't know. And so he said he took over Airbnb sort of dry up. And so like, literally like 35 of the building just moved out. And he didn't know in the due diligence that a lot of these right here. And then he said that the other big challenge for him was he actually had his in house property management company. He went third party. And, and he said that that really set him back on third party. And so working with the lender, lender was like, hey, like, we got to fix this. We got to fix this, otherwise we're going to take over the asset. And the lender, he actually made the decision to go back to in house property management. And he said the lender told him, the only way we're going to work with you and extend this loan and work with you is if you keep using third party. And he was like, dude, I can't use third party anymore for all his other assets. So he brought it in house, let that thing go, and it was a bigger deal. 52 million, I believe. And I think it's like 17 million of equity.
- [48:51]
A
Okay.
- [48:51]
B
Boom.
- [48:52]
A
Geez.
- [48:52]
B
God. Yeah. Yeah.
- [48:54]
A
I interviewed people that have just lost it, lost their shirts.
- [48:57]
B
Yeah, I interviewed him right after that, but I can't imagine what that feels like. But he did like 17 successful deals prior to that. And then it was this one. So I, I want to reach out to him, see how things are going. You see him around at these events?
- [49:10]
A
Yeah, I've seen it. I've seen him. I don't know him personally, but I know of him. Yeah. I mean, the past couple of years there's been a lot of these syndicators are, they've just, they're out of the market. Right. Because the, they've bought. I mean, the classic case is 20, 20, 2021, Covid hits, rates plummet and you're getting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loans at 2 and a half, 3% interest, floating rate debt, no interest rate cap, which it's kind of really bad that the lenders didn't require interest rate like every lender should have required an interest rate cap. Right. And what that does is it, it caps the, how high the interest rate can go and then you've got an inch, basically an insurance product on top that pays the lender if it goes any higher. Right. So the ones that didn't get the interest rate caps once the, once inflation started becoming a problem, the rates went from 3% to 11%, 9% and they couldn't, they just couldn't afford it. Right. So you got to give back, give the property back to the bank and then lose all of your equity. Right. And go and talk to your investors and explain to your investors why this happened. Right. So a lot of lawsuits, a lot of, a lot of bruised egos and a lot of guys, I think just out of the game altogether.
- [50:22]
B
Yeah, we, we had, and I was one of those people, two deals where we bought the Arbors townhomes in Greensboro, North Carolina. And Tim, there's 150 unit townhome style and Timber Creek Apartments, 145 units garden style. We bought Tim, Timber Creek August of 21. We bought Arbors in May of 21. We still own those assets today. But we got caught with the same problem. We, we got Freddie Mac floater agent, agency debt, 1% prepayment penalty. No, no rate cap on it. And we got in 2021, Arbors had a intro rate of 278. Timber Creek had an intro rate of like 24 in IO for the first five years.
- [51:06]
A
Like free money.
- [51:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. And, and so boom. Next thing you know, 18 months later, rates, rate, environment doubled, lender has a required reserve. Our debt service basically quadruples overnight. And so we had to refinance into fixed debt with both of those assets in the mid fives. And luckily, what saved us was we bought arbors really well and our value add plan worked. And so we actually did a cash out refi. Even though we're going to fix debt and it was a 4 million dollar raise. We did a cash out too. We returned 50 of the investor capital back with the refi and higher debt. Timber Creek, we didn't do a cash out but we also didn't have to put cash in. And so we were able to successfully refi out of the, the Freddy floaters into fixed rate debt and we didn't have to do capital call or anything like that. We still own those assets today, but it was still a learning lesson, you know, and, and I think all the smart money at that time was doing the Freddie floaters because it was 1% prepayment. If you're buying a value add plant business plan, you're going to refire, sell the asset 1% prepayment. And back then the yield maintenance deals with the prepayment penalties were, were killing all those deals. And so all the smart money was kind of doing that at the time. And I don't think anyone anticipated the right environment would, would do that literally so quickly.
- [52:26]
A
No, no, at all. I don't think, I don't think so at all. And that's just killed a lot of people. And I think lenders have wised up to that. I think they're now requiring interest rate caps. They're also requiring, you know, we talked about net worth and liquidity but even from an experience perspective they're, they're, they're wanting, they're looking harder now at the GP team. Right. And who has the experience and who can they rely on to, to trust that they're going to execute their business plan? We've had a couple students and even clients of mine through the law firm where you know, they're, they need to go find somebody that, because Freddie or Fannie have said, okay, you don't have enough experience to buy this, go find somebody that you can bring in that does. Even though you meet the net worth and liquidity requirements. So that's kind of a new, a new lending guideline that Fannie and Freddie have come up with past year. So.
- [53:13]
B
Interesting.
- [53:14]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:15]
B
I would say overall, like generally speaking, I think commercial lending, regardless of asset class right now, obviously it's tighter than what it was in 2021, it's tighter than what it was in 2223 and you know, rightfully slow or rightfully so. And they say, what do they say? They say when lending's tight you know, capital's tight. That's. That's where you find good deals.
- [53:34]
A
Right.
- [53:34]
B
And when. It's. When money's easy, that's when people are overpaying for assets. So, you know, it's like every market has its pros and cons, and every cycle has its pros and cons.
- [53:43]
A
Yeah, I remember in, you know, in 2024 and. And even 23, people were. People were. I'd go to all these conferences, and they were saying, you know, it survived to 25.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah. And now we're in 26.
- [53:54]
A
And now it's like, get your fix in 26.
- [53:57]
B
Right. What is that supposed to mean?
- [53:58]
A
I don't know. Like, I guess you're fixing. The market's fixing itself.
- [54:01]
B
Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [54:03]
A
27. You'll be in heaven.
- [54:05]
B
Okay. 28.
- [54:06]
A
Everything will be great.
- [54:07]
B
Okay. Okay. I like that. I like that.
- [54:08]
A
I forgot they said it for 29, but yeah.
- [54:10]
B
Todd, I appreciate you coming on, man, dropping so much game, so much value, working. The folks get in touch with you, want to learn more. But more importantly, where can the folks get in touch with you if they want to be a part of multifamily deal makers?
- [54:20]
A
Yeah. 100. So really get in touch with us through. Through Instagram and multifamilydealmakers.com you can book a call, you can join our newsletter, and our team will reach out.
- [54:30]
B
There it is.
- [54:31]
A
He is.
- [54:31]
B
Todd Robinson. Always looking fresh. I'm Rich Summers, listeners. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you guys in the next one. Peace.