← The Ronan Levy Podcast
The Ronan Levy Podcast
Jayson Gaignard: How To Create Meaningful Connections
01:23:31
Jayson Gaignard is the Founder and Head Curator of MMT (MastermindTalks), one of the world’s most exclusive communities for entrepreneurs.The invite-only MMT community has a lower acceptance rate than Harvard University and brings together brillian...
Loading summary
Transcript117 lines
- [00:00]
Jason Gaignard
I identify more as an artist than I do an entrepreneur. If business is simply my canvas, and for me, being in a space with other people is. It's a beautiful thing. Without a container, it feels like there's so much wasted love, energy, whatever, however you want to frame it, that just bleeds all over the place. So to me, whenever I walk into any kind of group setting, I really just, I visualize, like this container. And how can we set this container? With intention and clear commitments. As far as how do we show up for each other when we're, you know, together? I mean, really, at its core, container is designed to, like, make people feel safe, because you want people to feel safe so they can open up. And that's what makes a well held container such a beautiful mechanism for transformation.
- [00:51]
Ronan
Hey, everyone. Ronan here. The conversation you're about to listen to is between me and my friend Jason Gaignard. Usually I try to use these introductions to help give you an understanding of who I'm speaking to and why. But when it comes to Jason, all I'm going to say is this. He is, in my opinion, one of the best people on this planet. And my life is infinitely richer for his presence in it. And I know I'm not the only person who would make that testament. It is my sincere hope that you understand why I say this after listening to the following conversation. Because if there is one gift I can give back to Jason for all that he has consciously or unconsciously done for me, it is this. That he knows just how truly wonderful and cherished he is by me. And after listening to this episode, maybe even a little bit by you too. Thanks for listening. All right, well, Jason, let's get started. I am so glad. I think I've been chasing you to come on the podcast for a good while. Basically since I started the podcast, actually, I'm pretty sure you were one of the first people. I said, come on the podcast, and you're like, yeah. And then it never happens. And never happens. So first question is, why did you finally relent?
- [02:03]
Jason Gaignard
Honestly, you've had. So this is very weird to bring voice to, but I have no problem kind of doing so. I've said no to podcasts pretty extensively over the last year and change in order to cultivate space for the creative process. I find myself very much in a creative mode where I'm trying to produce at the moment, so tried to kind of clear my schedule. Schedule as much as possible. In your case, if I'm being truthful, it's the caliber of some of Your guests, I hold them in such high regard. And honestly, was a Scott Galloway episode that when I saw you, you had a great conversation with Scott, and then you asked me to come on, I was like, listen, Scott and I are on different kind of level playing fields. But yeah, and honestly, this is. I think we all have our growth edges when it comes to relationships. For some, it's having hard conversations. For others, it's showing up, you know, authentically in conversation or in relationship. And for me, I even made the distinction last week. I was in Victoria bc, and a friend of mine who's a billionaire reached out to me, and he's like, hey, do you want to do coffee? And I didn't answer right away because in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh, you're far too busy to have coffee with me. There's so much, you know, demand on your time and that kind of stuff. And I sat with it and I'm like, this is very much my growth edge when it comes to relationships. I still have some challenges around kind worthiness, so to speak. So all this to say when invited to be on the show and just looking at something. I've been on big podcasts before, but I think I hold you in such high regard that I'm like, yeah, I was thinking twice about it.
- [03:34]
Ronan
Well, thank you for the compliment. Thank you for the vulnerability there. Thank you for showing up today, for sure. And yes, I think I know I've told you this, but I'm going to share it with everybody here. It's like, Jason is. I completely understand, struggling with sense of worthiness, but of all the people in the world, you are definitely probably amongst the top three favorite people in the world for me, because you are just such a genuinely good human. I had Sanjay on the podcast a little while ago, and one of the insights I took away from that conversation, the principles or heuristics as Sanjay used, is like, spend time with people who consistently make your life better. Sanjay is one of those people. And, Jason, you're definitely one of those people for me. So, you know, while I respect your challenges with a sense of worthiness, from my lens, it's totally fucking insane, and you need to get over it because you are totally worthy of every good thing that happens to you. So there you go.
- [04:41]
Jason Gaignard
That's very kind of you. I.
- [04:42]
Ronan
End of conversation. I'm done. I'm out.
- [04:44]
Jason Gaignard
Another growth edge for me is receiving praise. So I'm getting better. I have a lot of growth edges, Ronan. But no, I definitely appreciate it and it's funny because I always, I love being a cheerleader to folks and seeing their greatness before. They may see it in themselves. So I know that this is a thing that I'm kind of navigating. The key is awareness and I catch myself in these patterns now. So I'm able to eventually turn the ship, which is why I'm here today.
- [05:12]
Ronan
Excellent beauty, Beautiful. I'm happy to be a part of the ship turning. You know this because I've told this to you and I'm not afraid to say it again, but for everybody listening, meeting Jason was one of the sliding doors moments in my life, both personally and certainly professionally. So the backstory to meeting Jason was we were both part of EO and you were I guess the education coordinator or whatever it was on eo and I guess you had started your own little spin off Mastermind with Alex Icahn and uj. And I got to know both of them and they're like, you gotta meet Jason. And I met Jason and I guess Mastermind talks number two was happening. And I think the cost then was like $5,000. And I didn't have $5,000 to spend on a two or three day workshop. Not workshop, that does a disser to it, but conference community. I don't know what the proper word.
- [06:12]
Jason Gaignard
Life changing experience. That's the way you framed up experience.
- [06:18]
Ronan
So, you know, I reached out and we had a conversation. I said, hey, can I do some legal work for you in exchange for coming to the event? And you said yes. And I feel like I did not come close to doing anywhere close to $5,000 worth of legal work for you, but you actually let me come. And that event, besides meeting so many wonderful people, I can tell you that, like that moment was pivotal because you had us do an exercise. And I still have the book somewhere in our basement where we had to write out what we wanted to be doing. And at that time I was juggling a whole bunch of potential opportunities, all of them kind of early stage. And I remember writing down, I think it was like a 90 day exercise, like a 90 days or six months. I want to be in the cannabis industry. I made the decision at that point in that moment in time, and I wrote it down. And then you sent that book to us subsequently a few weeks later, a couple months later, and that had happened. And you know, you've kind of followed my trajectory all along. But I was in the cannabis space. We started Canvas rx Canadian Cannabis Clinics, sold that to Aurora. That was my first real Entrepreneurial success that led to Field trip and so much beyond. And so much of what field trip was able to become was through some of the people I met through Mastermind talks, like Ben Greenfield and numerous and Tucker Max and all that kind of stuff. And so that moment still stands out to me, both the generosity of how you inviting me to come notwithstanding, I was not a true paying client. And everything that's transpired since it. It was because of that. So I want to start off by saying I'm genuinely grateful for that opportunity and thank you.
- [07:55]
Jason Gaignard
Well, I love that we're starting off with a lot of warm and warm and fuzzies. It's gonna get ugly. Well, listen, I adore you. You know, I adore you. We've been friends for over a decade now, and we've got. We've had a front row seat to, you know, our evolution and transitions and all that kind of stuff. And I actually didn't know that that workbook was instrumental to you. And it's weird, I mean, sometimes when people have a hesitancy to invest to, you know, joining a community or going to an event or whatever the case may be, I always point to Steve Jobs quote that you can't connect the dots looking forward, you just need to trust that they'll somehow connect. And for me, I can connect the dots backwards on so many occasions when I leaned into something where I didn't have a tangible ROI for it, but as a result of the relationships, it just led to these magical things and doors that opened. I could never predict it. So. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. I actually didn't know I've known you all this time. I didn't know that was such a. An inflection point for you to some degree.
- [08:56]
Ronan
Hugely. Yeah, no, it definitely was. All right, I know your story to some degree, but can you share your journey with us? You can start anywhere along the lines, but yeah, let's hear your story. Let's hear the Jason story.
- [09:11]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah. So in a nutshell, I dropped out of high school. I wasn't much of a. Of an academic, and I started a service based business, which was a personal concierge firm where our slogan was, if it was legal, moral, and would save you time, we take care of it. So I did everything from driving people's grandmothers to their old age home, to grocery shopping, to breaking up with people's girlfriends, literally knocking on a girl's door and say, hey, here's your stuff. Mark doesn't want to date you anymore, so. And as somebody As I say this as somebody who has historically a hard time with hard conversations, I would have actually definitely employed that service on numerous occasions. But did that event for a couple of years or sorry, that business for a couple of years. And through a mentor, I just had this really chance mentor kind of relationship that fell in my lap. I pivoted to a product business, basically an E commerce business of sorts, which I grew to about $7 million a year over four years. And I was traveling the world, making a ton of money. With all that money and all that free time, I start to ask myself questions like, why am I here? Will I be remembered? How many people show up to my funeral? And I was not happy with the answers I was giving myself. Actually had kidney complications at the age of 23 as a result of stress. So ultimately I just realized I built a business I hated to enable me to buy things I didn't need to impress people I didn't like. And when I realized that I was out of alignment with the work that I was doing. And also this, what came in this time, which may be helpful is I was driving my car one day and I remember stopping at a satellite and locking eyes with myself in the rearview mirror and like hearing this voice deep within my being that your father never said he was proud of you. And I broke into tears and I was like, where the hell did that come from? Because I felt like I had an okay relationship. My father, we were never really close, but I mean, he was in my life, all my life and all that kind of stuff through my childhood. And I realized that that was the unconscious driver pushing me to be successful, to make a ton of money so that one day he'd say that he's proud of me. But the kicker was I was waiting for that day and I was going to throw it back in his face and be like, told you so. So when I realized that I was running on dirty fuel, so to speak, I. I decided to scale the business down to zero. To sell the business would have been problematic and it would have problematic in the sense it would have taken two to three years to position it for sale in some kind of earn out. And I just couldn't do it to myself. So I decided to scale the business down to zero. Unfortunately, two things happened that were beyond my control. That landed me a quarter million dollars in cash debt in August of 2012. On September 1, my daughter turned six months old. On September 1, I got married to my wife. So there's a saying that when one door closes, another One opens but it sucks to be stuck in the hallway. It was a very dark hallway for me at the time. I struggled very much with being a first time father and, and that kind of stuff, especially with all the added weight of the financial pressures. And a friend of mine posted on social media again, getting back to not being able to connect the dots. Looking forward, an opportunity to go see Seth Godin in New York. He was facilitating a workshop. I didn't know what it was about. And Seth, anytime he puts anything out there to the world, they have these weird titles that you could never decipher what he's actually going to talk about. But went to this workshop and it turns out the theme of it was the connection economy and how there's huge value connecting like minded individuals. And at the time I felt very isolated. I had, I built my business not at the expense of any relationships, but I also didn't allocate any, you know, energy or bandwidth to cultivating relationships. So when I actually got married, I had two guys at my bachelor party. I had my brother and my brother in law. I knew nobody. So I made a commitment to myself on the plane ride home that was going to do two mastermind dinners. That's the way I was going to kind of position them. And the goal was to bring eight entrepreneurs for dinner with no other purpose than just to like have them in this container and kind of see what happens. The first one I did, I almost canceled two hours prior because I'm like nobody's going to see value in this. They're going to completely think I wasted, wasted their time. But given that it was like two hours to show time, I couldn't, I couldn't cancel it. And as people started to stroll in, I was just a mess, I was an anxious mess. But I, I stepped up when I needed to and conversation didn't skip a beat for four and a half hours. And I got clarity that being in proximity because I again, I don't like being the center of attention historically. I like being the fly on the wall. But to be in that room of all that energy and all those ideas and different industries, there was plenty of diversity as far as thought and experiences and that kind of stuff. I realized it was something I want to do to some capacity for the rest of my life and not as a, as a business because I was actually paying for these dinners out of pocket and which was crazy at the time because I didn't know how I was going to make rent. I actually thought I was going to declare bankruptcy which is why I could justify that. The bank could take my car, they could take whatever measly assets I had left, but they couldn't take my relationships. Investing in myself and investing my relationships was really the safest investment I could make. And then shortly after, only a few weeks later, I had an opportunity that fell in my lap to do an event with Tim Ferriss. And how that came to be was I had met Tim a year prior at an event that he did for authors. I never had the intention of ever becoming an author, but it was $10,000 to go for two days, which is 20x more than I've ever paid to go to an event. But I'm like, at 10 grand, there's bound to be some interesting people there. And that event for me was truly an inflection point. So he was coming out with a book called the four Hour Chef, and three weeks before launch he found out he was going to be banned from all retail distribution. No Barnes and Noble, no Walmart, no Costco. And ultimately he was the first big name author to publish through Amazon and the traditional publishing world, which you know well, want to make an example out of him. So what he did was, and it was brilliant, he created this book bundle campaign that if you bought five books, you'd get an immersion blender. If you bought 50 books, maybe he'd do a webinar. Well, he had this Hail Mary package that he didn't think anybody would take, which was he'd do two speaking engagements if you bought 4,000 books. And I decided to. When I saw that, I actually thought of a mutual friend of ours who used to do these large events all across Canada. And I sent him an email. I said, listen, this is a great opportunity for you. The minute I click send, I said, you know what, I'm going to jump on this because he's only offering one package and I know he's going to stay true to that. And if this guy doesn't take it, then I'll take it. And I sent an email to Tim and committed to buying the 4,000 books, which was $84,000. Problematic again because I can't pay rent. And what I did was I called three. They were friends, but kind of acquaintances to some degree. They definitely weren't like deep friendships I have now. And I reached out to all three of them that morning. First one I reached out to said, sounds interesting, share with me some numbers. And I was like, listen dude, I'll try, but I don't think in numbers and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but let me loop back with you. The second person said, Sounds great. Let's start a business together. 50 50, him and his business partner and me. And I said, that sounds really awesome. I have one more person to call, but the third person. I was halfway through my pitch and he said, just come to my office tomorrow to pick up a check. I didn't finish the pitch because I didn't want to give him any reason to say no. I just hung up that phone the next morning. I think I was supposed to pick up that check at like 9am I think I showed up like two hours in advance waiting outside in case he changed his mind. I'd be like, dude, I'm already here. But he didn't change his mind. I got that check. I looked at it. I remember this little piece of paper, a single piece of paper check. But it felt like it's weight in cash. It weighed a ton to me. And I went to the bank, deposited, wired the money to Tim and we did our first event. I always say ignorance, confidence and hard work can go a long way when you're an entrepreneur. I had no clue what I was doing. I didn't know how to put on an event. And as a result, it was actually much closer to a wedding than it was a conference because of the curation of those in attendance, because of the high touch nature of the assigned seating and that kind of stuff. And yeah, there's a lot of magical things that happen at that first gathering which gave me, I guess, the courage to do a second one, which is the one you kind of joined us at. But after that first event, when it was a big success, I reached back out to that friend who lent me the money and I said, why did you lend this to me? We didn't even talk about repayment terms. Like we didn't get that far in the conversation. And I'll never forget it. He said, I was investing in the business. I wasn't, I'm sorry, I wasn't investing in the business. I was investing in you. And at that point, two things became, became very clear. One is you never know the value of your network or your relationships until you really need it. And two, when you hit rock bottom in life and we all hit rock bottom, at some point, you'll be left with your word. So never tarnish your word and always invest in your relationships. And that set us off on this journey with MMT where we've had over 19,000 entrepreneurs apply for a community that's capped at 150 people annually. I can dig into the ins and outs of MMT if you want, but that's. Obviously, you have pretty good insight as far as the work that we do and the container that we hold all these beautiful relationships in, but this is the work I'm kind of deeply committed to for the next 10, 20, 30 years. So that's a bit of a snapshot.
- [18:33]
Ronan
That's awesome. Has your dad since ever said he's proud of you?
- [18:41]
Jason Gaignard
You've been holding on to that question all this time as I've been babbling. Wow, I feel so bad. What a terrible storyteller.
- [18:48]
Ronan
No, no, no, it's all important.
- [18:50]
Jason Gaignard
No, no. I got my first hug from my father two years ago when I was 37. So he's trying the, you know, The. The time is running out, but he's, you know, the effort is there. It's. It's. I mean, given the work that we've done on ourselves, we can have definitely deep empathy for what our parents have potentially navigated and what has shaped them. You know, any semblance of vulnerability is incredibly challenging for him. So I definitely feel like I have a good relationship with my father. I feel like I understand him deeply and I feel like I've almost that strong need to have is. I'm proud of myself and I wasn't before. And I think that's, like, I think I needed that pride from him initially to potentially feel proud of myself. Now I don't need it so much anymore. I like, internally, like, I am enough. I've done enough in the world. Like, I truly feel that. So that's as a result of just a lot of hard personal work. So.
- [19:51]
Ronan
I'm glad you. You're getting there on the worthiness conversation. So for everyone listening, Jason was also one of the people who was a participant in the never released Ordinary Trip Slash Everybody Is Doing Drugs documentary. And you know, when. When it was still called Ordinary Trip Slash, Everybody Was doing Everybody Is Doing Drugs. The big grand reveal, I guess, was the revelation that everybody has a story to wake up from. And they're all. We're all constantly waking up from the stories. And it was one of the big insights I took away that is, you know, there's nothing either good or bad. And the essence of being human is to imprint a narrative on every experience, good or bad. And so my question to you is, and I know there's a lot of aspects of it that make the story of compelling, but looking back, you know, at that 2324 year old self who went through that serious situation of shutting down your business and realizing like no one would show up to your funeral and all that kind of stuff. Do you still think that's true or is that just a story you're telling yourself?
- [21:02]
Jason Gaignard
Oh, if I go back to that time period of my life.
- [21:05]
Ronan
Yeah. Like from the lens of now, Jason, now looking at the 23 year old with that, would you tell that 23, 23 year old that your perspective is accurate, that people don't care about you, or was it just the story you were telling yourself as a 23 year old that people don't care about you, but in fact they actually did?
- [21:21]
Jason Gaignard
That's a good question. The romantic side of me wants to be like, no, Jason, that was a lie. People would show up. I don't think that's true, if I'm being honest with you. I mean, I just, I didn't have much for relationships at the time. So yes, my mother would miss me and my father would miss me and my brother. There would be a very small circle, but that very much pales in comparison to the life I lead now. Sure. So. So I definitely think, I mean, I, and I needed to climb that mountain of, you know, chasing things that maybe were not as worthwhile as I thought they were and only to achieve them and find out they were empty pursuits. So. So yeah, I'm sure people would have missed me. I don't remember how aggressive my narrative was around, like, will I be remembered and all that kind of stuff, but the truth of the matter is I felt, if I look at the, just the greater landscape of my life at that point in time, it was very much focused on business and transactional business at that. And it was, I don't say again, I don't say it was irrelevant, but just at that age I hadn't made much of an impact in the lives of others through the work that I did, which again, I think is very different now. And so I still have deep empathy and love for, for Jason of 23 and 24. And I think he did the best that he could with the tools that he had. But.
- [22:42]
Ronan
But yeah, okay, that's fair. I don't know who, who wrote you the check for $84,000, but presumably that person had a lot of respect for you at that point too though, right?
- [22:58]
Jason Gaignard
He did, yeah. I smile because I've had four mentors that have kicked out of MMT over the years. He's one of them. So it's interesting because obviously on some Level, I feel indebted to him for supporting and putting me on this journey. At the same time, the being someone who holds a container for community, keeping that container as clean as possible is just. That's paramount to me. So, yeah, that's why I smile. But short answer, yeah, I'm sure he definitely saw something in me. Again, it was knowing what I know. Now, he does shoot from the hip a little bit in the best way possible. I'm glad he didn't think that decision through, because if he did, there's no reason whatsoever he should have given me that money. I was 27 years old, couldn't make rent, I was a failure. From a business perspective, it's. So, yeah, he didn't think too deeply about it, but I definitely believe he was definitely a good friend for a long period of time. And for me, that was definitely a vote of confidence from someone. I mean, to the, the, the power of belief. When somebody has belief in you and you don't have believe in yourself, I mean, eclipses even what money can do, oftentimes even in the pandemic, that was reconfirmed for me in a very, very big way. So, so yeah, yeah, I think your.
- [24:32]
Ronan
Point about when someone has faith in you is it's huge. I recorded a podcast earlier today with a writer named Tom McGrath. And I asked him, and it's one of the questions I'm going to pose to you, but you know, who, who have been the most important teachers in your life, and you don't have to answer that just yet where you can. But one of the things he said was a teacher he had. And it reminded me that the truth in the high school teacher, the truth is the same for me. His name was Richard Maul. He was my grade 13 OAC Canadian history teacher. And for the love of God, I don't remember a goddamn thing about Canadian history like any good kid. But I do remember how much passion he had for his students and how much faith he had, you know, that they could do whatever they set their minds to and how much he encouraged that in every one of his students. And it is absolutely life changing when you have someone do that for you. Especially like your, your, your dad was not, I guess, the most tender or touchy feely, you know, vulnerable type father. My, my, my dad was absent. So I think we share similar experiences. And so when people do have faith in you, particularly men, it, it is really, really quite powerful.
- [25:46]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, no, absolutely. He was definitely present in flesh, but absent in spirit. But yeah, no, I mean, as Far. I definitely. It's funny, I wish I could reflect back when you start talking about your teacher. In high school, I had one teacher that I adored, and I put her on a pedestal. And then years after high school, I saw her at a trade show for something, and I told her I was telling her, I have a business now, all this kind of stuff. And she blurted out, I didn't actually think you'd amount to anything. And I was like, oh, that's spicy. That's a hard one to sit with. So I don't have fond memories of teachers, but for me, any challenging relationship, I can look back with a sense of gratitude. There's a saying, make your tormentors your mentors. I mean, I've learned a lot. Some people's stories are examples, while others are warnings. So, you know, my father, I love him dearly, and I've adopted a lot of his positive traits, like hard work and integrity and all that kind of stuff. But I've learned a lot from observing him or being in relationship with him that I take as far as how I show up in the world and how I show up. And as a parent to my daughter, her. My. My mother has dealt with alcoholism for the last 40 years, and that just brings up a huge array of just everything to navigate that relationship accordingly. And that's taught me about boundaries and. Which is something I've recently kind of cultivated and I'm still working on. But, yeah, even the relationship. My. My wife. I adore my wife. Yeah, she means everything to me, but she is. She is a strong woman. So I learn a lot about, you know, just being a relationship with someone like that, usually somebody who can trigger you. Those are obviously things to have kind of on your awareness. So, I mean, I've definitely had beautiful mentors over the years, both, like, within my world, who've made time and space to kind of guide me and also been mentored by great books and those kind of things. So I could definitely share a laundry list of folks that have had a positive influence on my life. But even though more challenging relationships, one could argue, they. They've probably shaped me more than. Than anything else.
- [28:06]
Ronan
All right, well, let's just, like. Let's go into that. Can. Can you name one? And, like, what was the experience and what is the insight that you took away from it?
- [28:16]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, I think my mother is probably the predominant one. If I could. Definitely the one with the most. The relationship with the hardest edges, one could say. Sure. And, I mean, for. For what it's worth, I grew up In a rather chaotic household. And in order to keep the peace, I was very much a people pleaser. So that has been kind of just wired in my DNA at a young age. And ultimately the turning point with my, my relation with my mother was her journey. Drinking got progressively worse into my teens. And I remember when I was 16, going up into her bedroom and trying to. I was just fully open and vulnerable with her and just said something along the lines of like, I'm here to be by your side, to help you get help. We'll go to AA together, like, you're not in this alone, blah, blah, blah. And she couldn't come to terms that she had a problem. And at that point, it almost cauterized me emotionally as far as how vulnerable I was willing to go. I would never let someone have that level of leverage or impact on my emotional well being. And I don't. I have a hard, hard time saying this and not looking like a jerk, but I, I often share, like, it was that moment that, like, my mother died to me and we've just been going through the motions ever since. So it's been a challenging relationship kind of since because there's been, you know, just a notion of, like, can you help somebody who doesn't want to be helped and all these incidences and valuing somebody who doesn't see value in their worth, you know, to make a change. So that has been. Yeah, that has been one of those relationships that has taught me a lot. And I also realized again that I, for many years kept myself protected from being vulnerable as a result of that moment in that particular relationship. And it's taken me a long time to cultivate vulnerability again. I remember Christy Harold, who, you know, I was in a, in a, in a group kind of setting with her, and I give her a shout out all the time for this. It was hard as hell to hear in the moment. But we're in this group setting. We had known each other for a year or two and we were doing some kind of exercise to kind of deepen relationships or deepen the intimacy of the group. And she turned to me, she's like, I feel like I don't know you. And I'm like, you've known me for two years. What are you talking about? Like, ask me a question, I'll, I'll answer the question. Not knowing that, like, vulnerability isn't just like, you know, responding to questions or what have you. And the reason I wasn't able to be vulnerable relationships is because I couldn't just be Vulnerable with myself. So I just completely cut off that side as opposed to now. I tend to be a pretty open book. Tend to be somebody who taps into vulnerability kind of regularly. So it's taken a while for me to cultivate that again.
- [31:16]
Ronan
Thank you for sharing that. I think it certainly resonates with me. I remember I wasn't vis a vis my mother, but I remember the exact moment when I cut myself off being like, I'm not going to let anybody ever rock me that hard again. Um, and just like, I'm going to be a ship that does not rock. You know, move slightly, but. And you and I share, like, a great discomfort of dancing. And I remember at the. In the making of the documentary, you know, you talked about. And tell me to shut up if you don't want this to, you know.
- [31:46]
Jason Gaignard
No, no, I'm an open book. I can't just tell you I'm an open book and vulnerable and be like, no, no, too much. Too much.
- [31:51]
Ronan
No, no, you absolutely fucking can, man. No, no, you know, you know, discomfort with dancing, like, I can dance if I'm drunk, but, like, being embodied like that, it's really hard. And I think in the documentary, what came out, and I don't know if it came out during that or it was something that you were aware of, but how your mother handled her alcoholism and. Or I guess the struggles of her life by, like, getting drunk and dancing in the hallways or in your house kind of thing. And, yeah, that created a negative association, I guess, with. With that kind of physical expression and.
- [32:25]
Jason Gaignard
Just being in my body like that. I've always had a. Almost a resistance to that. So I can, like, do therapy and, like, talk things out. I'm brilliant at it. So that side of me is very. Has been well worked, so to speak. The actual, like, more like somatic and, like, you know, moving through things physically, I have such a hard resistance for. And it wasn't until that particular moment where, yeah, everybody was dancing or have you. And I was someone enjoying it. And then I had this. This thing come up for me that, like, the reason I have such a resistance to it, even though it feels right, the reason I have such a resistance to it is that was the vehicle that my mother used to use to just bear the pain that she was kind of navigating so she would. She would dance. And I could remember, like, almost like, visually being in her proximity and just almost like, feeling all of the pain leave her and, like, almost felt like it was on to me. So for me, I made the association that, like dancing or, like physical movement or like, using that as a vehicle to kind of process trauma or pain or whatever the case may be was not a good thing because it's going to impact others, it's going to hurt others and those kind of things. So, yeah, I made a handful of, like, really interesting connections like that when we were together. So it was definitely a beautiful experience in that regards. And just trying to. I still don't dance, but I started swimming. I took swimming classes.
- [34:00]
Ronan
Excellent.
- [34:01]
Jason Gaignard
Which was as a result of this. Of our time together, because I never learned how to swim and I knew that was keeping me away from my relationship. My daughter, who's a fish in the water, so. But yeah, that particular moment around using movement to move through some of those challenging things that we're all, you know, holding onto and navigating it was. Yeah, I got clear understanding of why I had so much resistance to it.
- [34:32]
Ronan
Yeah. I'm going to share an observation that was about me, but I think there's so many parallels between our lives and I think that came out a lot when we were in Costa Rica together. But we both lost our hair.
- [34:48]
Jason Gaignard
That's one commonality we share.
- [34:51]
Ronan
What's that?
- [34:52]
Jason Gaignard
I said we both are losing our hair. That's one commonality we share amongst many.
- [34:57]
Ronan
Um, so my first ever intense psychedelic assisted therapy experience was a few years ago with a couple of therapists in Toronto. And I went in with the intention of trying to, you know, use my voice. Right. Like, I've always struggled. I've always had, like, strong opinions, weekly held. And. And so I went in, whatever. It was a great experience. I ended up singing at the top of my lungs being like, fuck this, I can sing. I can't sing. I'm still a fucking terrible singer, but. And probably an equally terrible dancer, but, like, expression. Finding a way to express myself and emotion has been a struggle my entire life. And a couple weeks ago, I was driving up to our farm and a song from The Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary CD, which is now 30 years since that CD came out, which at the time, blows my mind. So. But anyway, song came on, it was like a Rolling Stone with John Cougar Mellencamp. And I don't remember the woman's name, but when the. When the woman started singing very Aretha Franklin, kind of like soul depth kind of singing, like, she just like started belting it out. And, you know, if you listen to Like a Rolling Stone, for all its earnest, especially when it's musically expressed, it's like it's very powerful and emotional. Emotional song. Like, it really hits on a lot of themes that I think a lot of people can relate to. And in that moment, I'm like, fuck. My entire life, all I've wanted to do is be able to express, like, that woman in that moment, like that level of emotion coming out through my mouth or my voice, like, it was just, like, palpable. And it took me back to that psychedelic assisted therapy session a few years ago, and it's like, I want to find my voice, right? And here I am thinking, like, fuck, all I want to do is find my voice. And I share this with Stephanie, my wife, and kind of broke down quite a bit about it because it's still palpable for me. And in talking about it subsequently, it's really interesting. You know, Erwin, my teacher, says, your name is your destiny. Somewhere in your name is your destiny. And so a couple weeks ago, I was having a conversation with Irwin and I'm like, holy shit. My name in Hebrew, Ronan, means joyous song, right? And I'm like, holy. Like, that doesn't come up, like, just randomly. Like, you can't help but appreciate the. The coherence of it all when I adopt a name like Ronan. And my seemingly lifelong struggle has been expressing myself, you know, lyrically. And just a couple days ago, Jordan Boxer, a guy I work with, you know, we're talking about some spiritual stuff and he's like, I feel like Ronan, like you're right at the cusp of, like, evolving, but there's something right here holding you back in your throat. And I'm like, jesus, dude, you're absolutely right. And I told him about the song and psychedelic therapy session and all that kind of stuff. And just listening to you talk and the way you talk, I feel like, I don't know. Does that resonate with you at all? That there's still a piece of you that needs to be expressed? Like, I almost hear it in the way you talk, but I'm curious to know if it resonates with you.
- [38:17]
Jason Gaignard
Well, now I'm concerned, I guess. So I thought. I thought I had no blockages whatsoever as I clear my throat. No, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm deeply committed to that, the personal work for the rest of my life. And if I'm lucky, that's another 30, 40, 50 years. So I never feel like I arrived, so to speak. So I'm consistently just trying to lean into, you know, who I am and unbecome everything I'm not leaning into my voice. I mean, even recently my wife observed me say no to something. This is a very new territory for me to start saying no to things as people pleaser historically. And like, that is something I'm, you know, kind of exercising, you know, that voice to some degree because I, you know, even I was out back on my, my childhood, like, I would never voice my needs. They were always third, fourth, fifth, you know, down the. The rung of importance. And I also didn't even know what I wanted because I was never in a position where, you know, I was given the opportunity to voice my needs. It didn't matter when I was young, like, this is what we're doing or this is where we're going, or this is what you're doing this weekend or whatever the case may be. So. So, yeah, no, I definitely appreciate that share. I can definitely, yeah, I could definitely see myself in some of it, for sure. I just, yeah, I have a lack of awareness as far as what is that, what is continuing those blockages. But I feel like an iceberg, it's slowly melting away over time. And I just trust in that.
- [39:56]
Ronan
Yeah. Yeah. I think you probably shared the most important insight I've come across in a long time, which is like, there is no arriving. It's just an ongoing journey. Right. And the moment you let go of that there being some sort of destination, the easier all of this work becomes. I think.
- [40:15]
Jason Gaignard
100. Yeah. Anybody I know who is. Has an ounce of humility and has done this work for some time, you know, definitely subscribes to the idea of like, we don't have it all figured out. Because I think there's, there's definitely times in my life where I felt like I had it all figured out. Maybe I did medicine work or had a great conversation or something like that. I'm like, ah, I got it. And you're like, no, there's. There's layers. And that's truly the way I look at my development is like layers of an onion. I'm just slowly peeling away the layer layers, you know, time, over time. So, yeah, maybe by the time I reach my deathbed, I'll. I'll get to the core of that onion, so to speak. But yeah, I just think it's exactly. We all find different analogy. What else has layers to it? I don't even know. But. But yeah, no, I mean, I definitely, I'm subscribed to this work forever. And it's uncomfortable too, because every time you have some of these moments, you work through something you're like, oh man, I feel like I'm good. I just want to like stabilize a little bit and it's easy almost to like beat yourself up and go too aggressively into this work as well.
- [41:17]
Ronan
Yeah.
- [41:18]
Jason Gaignard
But I think I found a cadence that kind of works for me and different modalities that work for me, so. Oh yeah. Deeply committed to this work.
- [41:26]
Ronan
Awesome. When you were talking about MMT before, you were talking about creating a container and that's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit, you know, especially in the personal growth kind of space. What does it mean to you and how do you create that container for mmt? Obviously I think just who you are goes a lot, goes a long way because I think your integrity is at the very forefront of who you are. But what else goes into creating that container?
- [41:54]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I haven't flushed it out like through the written word yet, so I don't have like here's the five components that make an incredible container. I know if I riff on it, it'll come out. But I mean for me, I was just actually at an event this last, this last week and it was interesting to be on the other side of things because it's an opportunity I rarely have.
- [42:19]
Ronan
Right.
- [42:19]
Jason Gaignard
And literally, like I always say that I identify more as an artist than I do an entrepreneur. And business is simply my campus. And for me, being in a space with other people is, I mean it's, it's a beautiful thing. It's a canvas and they're like without a container it feels like there's so much wasted love, energy, whatever, however you want to frame it, that just bleeds all over the place. So to me, whenever I walk into any kind of group setting, I really just, I visualize like this container and how can we set this container with intention and clear commitments. As far as how do we show up for each other when we're, you know, together and then really truly like protecting that container. So holding, you know, everyone in that container to a standard, whether that be confidentiality, I mean really at its core, container is designed to like make people feel safe because you want people to feel safe so they can open up. And that's what makes a well held container such a beautiful mechanism for trends transformation. So for me, when I look at it from like an event scenario at the beginning of our events, like first I'm very selective as far as who comes. So you know, the value of a community is often like those who are not included. So there's Generally a very strong sense of shared values and that kind of stuff. As far as when people are together, then at the beginning, I always set almost like the why behind what we're doing, why we're together, and just really put a lot of intention into that, because it's also not just the container. It's also getting people to fly in formation with that vision or what have you, and then having very clear. We call them guiding principles at mmt, but have very clear commitments as far as how we show up when we're together and also closing of the container. And that's top of mind for me because. Because to me, it's like you. You close it with everybody in it, and then I guess you reopen it. One. One could say at the end. But there has to be almost like, this closing exercise of sorts. And I share that because I just went to an event where there was no clothes, and it was kind of jarring. It was a beautiful experience that we shared together. But then it just. It was just nothing happened at the end. There was no, like, sharing of appreciation or whatever the case may be, or just reflection over our time together. And as a result, like, I actually had a few conversations with some of the other attendees, and they're like, yeah, the end felt kind of jarring to me, which is the best way to kind of describe it. So that's the way we kind of look, I guess, at a container from a high level when it comes to mmt. But I think a lot of those principles can be applied in different scenarios. But ultimately, for me, whenever I see a group of humans, I try to figure out, how can I make them feel safe and how can I get them to fly in formation?
- [45:15]
Ronan
It's great advice. Very good. You know, I think that's important, like, not just in, like, the business context, but everywhere. Right. Like, if you can walk into a room at any given time and help that come to fruition, what a powerful skill, What a powerful gift to offer to the world. So I think that's a lot of wisdom and insight in that. Thank you. You like another mmt Er, Laura Gassner, Auding violated your no podcast rule. I don't know how hard and fast yours is, but to join here, you've. You've published at least one book, Community Made. Can you tell us about that book, and can you tell us what the creative bubble that you've now contained in your geodesic dome is Backwards?
- [46:01]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah. Well, it just occurred to me, the geodesic dome is circular, so it's Like a container where I feel safe to explore my ideas and that kind of stuff. But yes, I actually wrote a book called Mastermind dinners in 2014, which was a book I wrote quickly and it's done well by like book standards. It has like over 700 reviews on Amazon and has sold some 50,000 copies. But it's a book that I'm not necessarily proud of. The principles still ring true and all that kind of stuff. But I know I didn't put my all into that book. So I share that because that's been gnawing away at me for the last like seven years. If I go to speak at an event and they're like, oh, we bought 50 copies of your book, I'm like, ah, that burns. I wish you did buy that book book. But again, I've reread it recently because I had this narrative of like, oh, this thing is trash, you should take this off the market. And I reread it. I'm like, ah, it's actually not that bad. I just would, you know, revamp it a lot. So for me, you know, the last year I've keep mortality at just like the forefront of my decision making process. When I was 18, actually was a mechanic. So I dropped out of high school, it became a mechanic. And one day when I was working on a vehicle, I remember being at this like wash basin and I blew my nose and it was black. And that was as a result of like the brake dust that I was inhaling. And I looked over to the owner who was on my right hand side and he was holding his elbow at that perfectly timed moment because he was getting carpal tunnel as a result of the impact guns. And that day at lunch, I decided to look up the average age of, I guess mortality of like a North American male, which is like 79 years. And I decided to multiply that by 365 days, which gave me, I think it was 29, 270 days. Being 18 at the time, I multiplied that by 365 days and I realized I'd lived 6,500 out of my 27,000 days if I'm lucky, if I make it to that, you know, that average mortality range. And for me it just created a sense of urgency that I'm not going to be here forever. And I can literally see the days ticking. And I actually quit being a mechanic that day and I didn't know what I was going to do next. And that ultimately led me into business and, and all that kind of stuff. All this to Say, I very much keep mortality at the forefront of my decision process. And I fast forward to, like, I'm on my deathbed. What regrets do I have and how can I mitigate those by taking action now. And for me, as I kind of alluded to earlier, like, I feel like I've. I am enough and I've done enough in the world that, like, I kind of check those boxes to some degree. But the one regret I would have on my deathbed is if I didn't take the time to metabolize everything I've learned the hard way over the last decade that I know can support others on their journey. I don't feel like I could deal with that regret. I've been an incredible father to my daughter. I'm ask my wife. I'm a phenomenal husband. I know I've made an impact through MMT and all that kind of stuff, but that's the one thing that really just gnaws at me. So as a result, we decided to not do an event for MMT in 2024, which ultimately cost us, like, $1.8 million, which is not chump change because we're just coming out of the pandemic where our business was decimated, so we're climbing out of debt. So to make that decision was not easy, but it was the right decision to create space for the creative process effectively. So I'm again trying to say no to as much as possible so I can kind of honor this space. And I find myself kind of deep in the writing process right now. It's been. I don't know. People say. I was thinking about this morning. People say, like, writing is hard. It is to some degree, but, like, being broke is far harder than writing a book. I've gone through some hard things in my life, so I've tried not to, like, label writing a book as hard. It's a puzzle, for sure. Like, you run into contradictions and these kind of things. Like, these are things that need to be figured out, but that's also. They get figured out with time and focus and those kind of things. So for me, I've only had one bad writing day out of the last 115. And that one bad writing day was just because I didn't want to sit down in front of a computer. I actually journaled about it, and I posted it on social media. I'm like, I literally don't want to sit down because something is happening in the emotionally that I just don't want to sit with. So it had nothing to do with the book, but that was keeping me from kind of leaning into the creative process outside of that. I mean, I have days where I produce a little more than others, but it's been a beautifully just therapeutic, you know, experience for me. And I'm very confident that writing will be a part of my life for the rest of my life. And it's easy to put by the wayside because it's. It's so interesting to work on something that won't be released for two years. So it's like ultimate delayed gratification in a culture that, like, this is not normal anymore. Normally you post something on TikTok and you watch the likes or whatever the case may be, but there is something about just the deep work that goes into writing a book. You know, the 10,000 hours of experience. Far more than that, but 10,000 hours of experience and the thousand hours or so to take to write the book and go through the editing process, all to be able to hand to somebody else that they can consume in only a few hours. So, you know, I. I was kind of joking with somebody recently. They're like, I want to be. I want to live on. On. On, like a shelf and not as an urn, but like, with between, like, two hardcover pages, like, all. Everything. I learned the hard way to again, hopefully support somebody else on their journey. So all this to say it's. It's going. It's going well. It's taking longer than anticipated, but it's been a just beautifully therapeutic process for me.
- [51:50]
Ronan
That's beautiful. What a great way to write. Not just to get your ideas out, but to metabolize things. That's such a great way to be doing.
- [51:59]
Jason Gaignard
I thought I knew what I was talking about until I started putting pen to paper, and I was like, man, I got to think deeper about these things or what have you. And I think James Clear had a quote, something along the lines of, like, I hope everybody writes a book because, like, it changes you. And it's been one of the best personal development vehicles because it's brought so much clarity to my thinking and has. And then one of the nice things about it, too, why it's been such an enjoyable experience for me is I'm not working with a traditional publisher. I'm working with a hybrid publisher where I have the ability to control the timelines. This would be a very different process for me if I had, you know, six weeks to write a book. I don't have those constraints. So as a result, I get to, like, go down different Rabbit holes when I feel called to and, you know, see things through different perspectives and have conversations and those kind of things, which is, again, it's, it's not rushed and it's beautiful for, for that reason. So, yeah, no, it's going well. And I make a commitment to kind of focus two hours a day on it as opposed to like a word count or what have you. Because I'm not trying to write the longest book in the world. I'm trying to write the best book I can. So if I spend that two hours, you know, focused on a single sentence, that's driving me bananas, so be it. If I spend that two hours and I produce 2,000 words, that, that's amazing as well. It's all for, you know, in the spirit of putting something out there to the world that I'm. That I'm proud of.
- [53:30]
Ronan
Do you have a strict kind of like 2 hour window? Is it from like 8 to 10 or is it just 2 hours a day at any point?
- [53:37]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, I. So historically, historically it's first thing when I wake up. I've come to realize I can do anything I want. I can achieve anything I want in the first like two hours of the day. The problem is knowing that that is so powerful for me. Then I have like competing priorities. I'm like, oh, I want to lose weight. So like, I gotta, you know, squeeze that in, in that two hours. But no, I also wanna write the book. Then I gotta do that in the two hours or I have these things lagging the business. You know, I gotta slant it in that two hours. To me, I, you know, waking up as early as I do, those first two hours are uninterrupted. That's like my time. So that's before my daughter wakes up. That's before my wife, you know, wakes up. That's before I start getting emails or, you know, slack messages or whatever the case may be. So that is, I'm setting myself up for success. If I roll out of bed and like start working on that again, I know that if I didn't have the book, like, that is very precious time to actually achieve things. So if health and wellness and fitness was like my biggest focus, like, I would slot it in that, in that time slot. So that's just the habit and ritual that I've, I've kind of cultivated. That has worked really, really well for me. I'll get pockets where maybe I can try to work on the book in the evening or whatever the case may be. But for me, first two hours of the morning is critical at least to like set myself up for success in the sense that like, I'm going to deliver on what I, what I want to.
- [55:00]
Ronan
That's awesome. I noticed on Instagram recently that you posted something about being punked.
- [55:13]
Jason Gaignard
You want to hear about it?
- [55:14]
Ronan
Oh, yeah.
- [55:15]
Jason Gaignard
Oh shoot. Oh God, this is funny. Where do I begin? So I, yeah, the rule of thumb is like bad things happen in threes. I think after like eight things in this week, I stopped counting and it became humorous. So short version. We, I took my. Decided to surprise my family to take them to Montreal for the weekend. And the first night my truck got stolen, which is a brand new truck. And then so that was. I had all kinds of hoops to jump through to get a rental car and that kind of stuff. Then I found out that my credit card was compromised to be under, to be expected because my credit card was in the truck. But then I realized that somebody had actually stole my identity and opened credit cards under my name and trashed my credit score over the last six months. And this is like the longest six month span I haven't looked at my credit score. That happened. I came back home, there was a slow thing, it was non stop. Oh, I'm building this like 63 foot pergola. I have this rule on our farm that I have to do everything on my own. So we have this 57 acre farm and I try not to hire out work because that's what keeps my finances in check. If I had the ability to start writing checks, I'd be broke in no time. So the rule, the constraint is I have to do the work. All this to say I'm building the 63 foot Pergola and I poured all these like concrete things, the footings and all that kind of stuff. We had the worst rainstorm of all time where it actually washed out our gardens, which is another thing number six. So I planted all this stuff. It was all washed out by the rain, but we had so much rain that the concrete piles were floating. They were bobbing like buoys in the middle of the ocean, you know, in their, like their holes. And we're doing this for a dinner that we're doing on August 24th. So it's a race against the clock. I bought grass seed to lay for this, this, this thing. And on the grass seed container it said it'll take 28 days to germinate. And then I looked and our dinners in 31 days. We have friends flying in from all over the world, this dinner. So I'M like, I'm gonna have to put Astroturf. The list goes on and on. But I have my health, my family has their health. And yeah, it was one of those moments where there was a point I just looked over my shoulder. I'm like, there has to be a camera on me right now. This makes no sense that so much is going sideways in such a short period of time. So, yeah, I can go on, but that was a little snippet of my week.
- [57:46]
Ronan
Beauty. Thank you for sharing. And you're still smiling, which is all that matters because I probably would have put a hole through my computer screen if that was fine.
- [57:53]
Jason Gaignard
My computer's in good standing. But yeah, there comes a point where you just, you almost, yeah, you're forced to laugh. So it was one of those weeks.
- [58:05]
Ronan
You kind of touched on it. But who have the. Who have been or who was the most influential teacher in your life? You talked about, you know, metabolizing some of those tormentors, becoming mentors. Doesn't have to be that. But is there, is there one thing that stands out as being like that was the single most pivotal lesson I've ever had.
- [58:28]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah. I'd be lying to use to pinpoint one singular person. I mean, I could just, I could even friends and folks like you, I can point to hundreds of lessons and thousands of lessons that have been compounded by just watching people, how they show up in the world and those kind of things. So it's, it's hard. I think a lot of the, like, a lot of the aha. Moments of awareness I've cultivated on my own, usually with the support of clamping based medicines in like a therapeutic, a very like structured therapeutic environment. So one could say, like, they have been guides for me in those moments, so to speak. But like, these are things that, like, they come on my awareness and they just cut to the core of like so many problems that just what, weren't on my radar. So when I look at like the big aha. Moments of learning, it's usually as a result of those, you know, identifying those, those triggers or, or just unearthing things. And those usually happen as like just a solitary endeavor. But. But yeah, I mean, I've had so many mentors and so many. That's so weird. I mean, to me, if I had to probably look at like an inflection point, it would probably be Tony Robbins. Back when I was 18, I had never been exposed to any kind of personal development stuff. And I went to a Tony Robbins event and I mean, there's some of his concepts specifically around, like, ownership and not being a victim and those kind of things that gave me the agency that, like, I can change things, which was very powering at, you know, 18 years old. I don't know if I had that embedded in me earlier than that, but I truly see that, like Tony Robinson as an inflection point and the importance of, like, being very conscious as far as, like, your peer group and that kind of stuff. So I had that incident with my mother when I was 16, 18. Tony Robbins said, hey, take ownership, be, you know, very conscious as far as who you're surrounding yourself with, and your life will get better. And, you know, from 18 to, I mean, to today, I'm just very, very conscious as far as, yeah, the people in my world. And that has led to so many incredible things. But if I had to point to an inflection point, it would be him. But I've had so many, you know, checkpoints along the way as a result of just friendships and mentors and books I've read and podcasts I've listened to that have just incrementally kind of shifted me on my journey.
- [61:19]
Ronan
Cool. That's a great answer. And listen, I think that's true. It's like, there's tons and tons of teachers. I was just wondering if anyone in particular stood out. And it's funny because as you were talking about plant medicine, I was going to ask. I think for a lot of people, taking that leap into personal growth is a huge leap. The first time you're like, all right, I'm going to put down my guard and try something. And so I was going to ask you, when was the first time you put down your guard to try plant medicine? But the truth is, that question is irrelevant because I think it's probably that time you went to Tony Robbins and open yourself up to a different perspective that started that journey, it sounds like.
- [61:56]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, yeah, I definitely think Tony Robbins was an inflection point to me because after that is when I started to join things like Rotary Club and EO and those. Again, that was the inflection. And then there was little things that happened along the way. And plant based. Plant based medicine has, you know, thrown me even more aggressively on that curve, one could say. But yeah, I mean, the first experience wasn't particularly. It was the least therapeutic experience I had. And I didn't know what I was kind of going into. There was ignorance there. But after that experience, I realized it was something more. And I also understood the value of these tools when they're used effectively. And since that point, it's all been very thoughtful, intentional, with very strong integration, very. A lot of intention on the front end, and then very strong integration on the back end. And that has continued to, again, just pay huge dividends in my life.
- [62:53]
Ronan
Awesome. Looking back on your life, what was the one thing growing up that you wanted more than anything? Because, like, I think one of the things that a lot of people get trapped into is, like, having a dream and sticking to it and not letting maturity and wisdom and experience help you realize that maybe it's time to change your perspective on goals and ambitions.
- [63:17]
Jason Gaignard
And what was the question again? I just want to make sure I got it right.
- [63:20]
Ronan
What was the one thing growing up you wanted more than anything?
- [63:30]
Jason Gaignard
If I'm being honest, what comes to mind first was belonging. To be protected, to be cared for. And these are all things, no surprise. I try to provide to others at scale. Yeah, Yeah. I think those are three deep ones. You know, belonging, care, and. And protection.
- [63:56]
Ronan
Yeah. Yeah. For me, like, looking back, I was always very teleological. I was always focused on the next step, like, high school, university, law school, get the job, get the house, get the wife, get the kids, get the car. Sure. Boom. And like, okay, that's happiness. And for me, like, the realization is like, oh, you know, there's happiness steps along the way, and they give you little boosts of happiness. But I think all along I was just trying to, you know, going back to the conversation of worthiness, just, like, trying to prove that I was worthy, that I was capable, that I was good enough, you know, and those were the metrics that I put in place, only to realize somewhere over the last, I don't know, 20 years that none of those things will actually give you a sense of worthiness. And that only comes from within.
- [64:40]
Jason Gaignard
Sure.
- [64:41]
Ronan
Kind of touched on it a little bit. But what dreams do you have for the rest of your life? I find as we get older and we achieve a lot of the things that we set out to achieve, we stop dreaming and we stop hoping for something in the future. And I know, you know, writing books, and I know you've got the current book and probably at least one other in mind, but are there any other dreams that stand out of as what you want to achieve going forward?
- [65:05]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah, I mean, I live a pretty dope life that I've been trying to cultivate for the last 11 years. Like, I have beautiful friendships and relationships. I do meaningful work. I live my little slice of paradise, you know, at 11, it was 11 to 12 years ago when I left that last business and was broke. One of the exercises I did was identifying my perfect day. What time do I wake up? Who do I wake up next to? What are the emotions I want to feel throughout the day? Am I working on, you know, remotely with a team? Or am I, whatever, an artist and work alone? Am I going into an office? And honestly, on most days, and I may not always appreciate it, but on most days, I live that perfect day that I designed kind of 12 years ago for me. Again, writing is forever going to be, I think, a part of my writing. I don't want to be so attached to the medium, metabolizing things I've learned the hard way and giving them purpose and meaning and sending the elevator back down, that is going to be a part of my life forever. One of the best vehicles for that is writing. So that is definitely my intention to lean into it. But honestly, I mean, I. What also came up for me is I want to see my. My daughter fall in love. I don't know, there's something about, like, I feel like I can check out at that point if I had to, but just seeing that and seeing that for her and seeing her navigate that and everything that comes, you know, with that, that package, so to speak. So because outside of that, I mean, you know, vacations with my wife and slew of other little things in between, but as long as I'm here, I want to, you know, send the elevator back down and support others on their journey. And, yeah, I just want to. I want to make sure my daughter's okay. And I know she is. She's an incredible girl and that kind of stuff, but just for some reason, seeing her fall in love is a checkpoint I want to experience. And then I can't think really beyond that, if I'm being honest.
- [67:25]
Ronan
That's great. I love the analogy of sending the elevator back down. I think that's a beautiful concept of, you know, you. You recently organized an event with Chip Conley, who, as a result of that, I've got coming on the podcast a couple of weeks. So I'll give you props when that. When that happens, but please do.
- [67:46]
Jason Gaignard
My ego would love it.
- [67:49]
Ronan
Done and doner, but, like, how he talks about, like, you know, you're a little bit younger than I am, but, like, around this point, you go from the accumulation phase to the editing phase and starting to shed all the things that don't matter, and it sounds like you're well on your way to doing that, which is which is awesome and I think serves as an inspiration for hopefully everybody listening.
- [68:11]
Jason Gaignard
Well, that's very kind of you. I'm a companion on the path. I don't have everything figured out, but in some regards I. I'm further along than most and there's definitely some people that I still look to as I try to figure out this messy thing called life. So. So no, I definitely, yeah, I appreciate it. But yeah, just reflecting on what I said about my daughter, that's actually hitting me more than I thought it would. So thank you for the little thought exercise.
- [68:37]
Ronan
My pleasure. Last question for you and then I'll send you back to writing or farming.
- [68:42]
Jason Gaignard
Or take care of my animals.
- [68:44]
Ronan
Two questions.
- [68:46]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah.
- [68:47]
Ronan
What was the last thing that blew your mind? And I'll ask the second question, which is what's one thing you wish more people knew?
- [68:55]
Jason Gaignard
Oh, Jesus. Last thing you blew.
- [68:59]
Ronan
Not easy questions, man. I come in hard hitting.
- [69:01]
Jason Gaignard
No, you should have sent this in prep. You said no prep. These are deep questions. Last thing that blew my mind. Honestly, I hate to bring it back to my daughter, but it's true. There's an element of the most rewarding thing I do is metabolize my learnings and coach her as she navigates, you know, her early teen years and all that kind of stuff. And seeing a kid have a challenge, take your guidance and apply it and achieve a different result, I'm done. You know, I mean, like that is the most. Just the most rewarding thing in the world. So to me, like that those moments draw more awe and amazement than anything else. I'm sure there could be a different, better answer. But I have horrible memory which actually works really good because I'm almost always living either in the moment or in the future. I don't think about the past because I can't remember the past. So yeah, that wasn't necessarily a great question for somebody like me, but that is, you know, the comment of my daughter is very true. And the other question was, what should. Something everyone should know.
- [70:31]
Ronan
What's one thing you wish more people knew?
- [70:38]
Jason Gaignard
I think that gets better. The I've come to. I've. I've been lucky enough to be a confidant of sorts to many friends as they navigate the highs and lows of. I was going to say of entre. Entrepreneurship, but just life in general. We all have our highs and lows. And the one thing I've come to realize is wealth. You know, thinking back to Shakespeare, there's no good or bad thing, he makes it. So first and foremost but the good times don't last forever and the bad times don't last forever either. And I've had some very dark bad times where I could not see my way out of it, where I just focused on putting one foot ahead of the other. Yeah, I've had many moments like that. And I think somebody asked me years ago, and I mean that long ago. And if some people have asked me a variation of this question of like, what would your older self tell, like your current present self? And the thing that always comes up is, everything's going to be okay. Like, just that sense of like, faith is something that is new territory for me and I think it's also lacking in our society just culturally with just the decline in people subscribing to a religion or what have you. Because usually there's some kind of faith kind of baked into that. And I didn't grow up, I grew up a Christian, but not really somebody who practiced. So just embracing that faith that like, everything's going to be okay. You know, the most aggressive storms usually pass the fastest and that kind of stuff. So for me just, it reminds me of a saying for a friend of mine who's a very well known entrepreneur. His mantra was just stay in the game. As long as you stay in the game, you're gonna win. So you don't have to have these big, you know, wins all the time and that kind of stuff. Just, just stay in the game. And when I look at back on my darkest times, just remembering that like, yeah, stay in the game. The bad doesn't last forever. And that'd be a message I would try to leave with everyone.
- [72:44]
Ronan
Yeah, yeah. Through the darkest times. And here you are in your geodesic dome. What a great way to close off. That's all I got, buddy. That was exactly what I hoped it would be. Thank you so much for showing up physically, showing up spiritually and emotionally. I love this conversation and I look forward to hopefully having many, many more, including certainly not waiting till then. But whenever your book comes out, I hope you'll come back and drop all those metabolized nuggets of wisdom. Sounds a little bit grosser than it should, but.
- [73:18]
Jason Gaignard
Well, listen, my man, I, I appreciate you immensely as, as a dear, dear friend and thank you for the nudge to, to get me on the podcast. And you know, thank you for the work that you're, you're putting out to the world through this podcast. I mean, obviously something like this is a labor of love. There's other things that could be you know, occupying this time and energy of yours, and you're choosing to send the elevator back down, as am I. So we're companions on the path in that regard, so I appreciate you immensely.
- [73:48]
Ronan
Awesome.
- [73:50]
Chris
Hey, podcast people, don't leave yet. This is your favorite podcast producer, Chris, and after we recorded this episode, I stuck around to reflect and ask Ronan some questions about the interview. This podcast is already getting long, but I just thought I would ask you, what's the last thing that blew your mind? Ronan?
- [74:12]
Ronan
That's a fair question. And I was anticipating it may get thrown back at me. So I was thinking about it while talking to Jason, and truthfully, it was what I mentioned, that realization that your name is your destiny. And when I realized that my name means joyous song, and so much of my journey has been about trying to find and express my voice, I was just like, you can't make that shit up. Like, you know, it's just the level of coincidence that would be required to make that true is just mind blowing that, you know, it gives real sense to the fact that there is something happening on a different level. I don't know if I'd call it God or what, but there's got to be something operating in the background somehow. And it was just so eye opening to see it, you know, so put in my face in such a consistent order. And particularly when Jordan subsequently, you know, called me out and said, like, there's something here that's blocking your karma, you know, or your energy. And I'm like, how would you know that other than to actually see it? Which means all of that storyline must be connected and seen somewhere.
- [75:27]
Chris
So it felt very like meta to me that we're having this conversation about throat chakra blockages while doing a podcast.
- [75:36]
Ronan
Totally. What about you?
- [75:37]
Chris
But also. Also. Well, it reminded me. I just wanted to say, though, that whole thing reminded me of an experience I had as you guys were kind of talking about how the work is never done or. He said, you never. You never hit an arrival point. Exactly. A long time ago, like a decade ago, I saw a medicine woman shaman named Carrie Hummingbird here in Austin.
- [76:03]
Ronan
Okay.
- [76:03]
Chris
And she walked me through an experience that was completely sober. What was more kind of visualization and breath work. And she was talking to me about a throat chakra blockage. And as we were working together, I could feel like my Adam's apple getting, like, warmer and warmer and warmer to the point it was, like, burning hot. And it was an emotional day of someone who had, like, kind of stifled myself from voicing. My opinions. And yet, as you guys were. As you were talking with Jason, I couldn't help but think that was a very impactful experience that I'll never forget. And yet six months, 12 months afterwards, kind of hard not to just, like, feel back to normal, like, back to my normal self. Like, we do these things. We do these retreats and these plant medicine experiences, and we work with shamans. And, yeah, it does feel like the work is. The work is never done. That was actually a podcast title I was thinking of is Doing the Work Is Never Done with. With Jason Gaynor. But then the marketer in me goes, like, is that clickable? Do people want to listen to a podcast about doing the work? I don't know, but that. That little anecdote came up to me for me, as you guys were talking as, like, just how impactful that was, but also how we have these peak experiences, and then we kind of just get back in our normal groove. Sometimes that's, like, has to just keep going, keep going onto the next thing.
- [77:40]
Ronan
Yeah, I think. I mean, the way I describe psychedelic experiences is like, it's like an elastic band. It gets stretched, and you have the peak experience, and it lasts for a little while, and then it goes back largely into shape, but not exactly the same. It's been changed, it's been stretched, and the trajectory is now different. What you can do with that elastic band is now different than it was before that moment. And it's just a reminder to have compassion, stay the course, and realize it's an ongoing effort and that you let go of the arrivals and enjoy the process. And like Sanjay said, make sure you do it with good people.
- [78:19]
Jason Gaignard
Yeah. Yeah.
- [78:20]
Chris
So let me put on my therapist hat for one second. Flip. One more question back at you. Which is, Ronan, what did you want most growing up? And does it also manifest these desires, like, in your own work, in your career trajectory?
- [78:37]
Ronan
Yeah, I mean, I kind of mentioned that to Jason, which is, like, I wanted to, like, get the degree, go to law school, get the job, you know, marry a beautiful woman, get the house, like, do all the things that we're told to do, because somehow I thought, you know, my sense of, like, worth would come from that, that I would be good enough if I had done those things. Um, you know, listen, I always want to be a NBA player and, like, a major league baseball player. I always wanted to be an athlete. I wanted to be a musician. All of these things, those were all dreams. But really, like, the goal was to prove myself through those steps to hopefully Find worth. And I've achieved all those things. In fact, I've written a couple of new potential, you know, 30 second clips for the podcast and that's a theme of one of them. So I'm going to take some time to record that and I'll send that over to you, um, and we can go from there. But that, that was it for me. What about you?
- [79:33]
Chris
That's right. I had to. Well, I had to Google teleological at this point in the conversation, as. As coming from, as, I don't know, a worldview in which we're focused on things for their end purpose.
- [79:46]
Ronan
Yep.
- [79:47]
Chris
Is one way to look at that. And it's funny to me, it's like, isn't that just kind of like maleness? Isn't that just like the guy experience? I can't help but think, like, how much society shapes men specifically to say that your value as a human being and your love comes from being productive and doing things.
- [80:11]
Ronan
Yep.
- [80:12]
Chris
So that's a big, you know, you wonder how much of that is biology versus how much of that is culture.
- [80:17]
Ronan
I mean, I think culture drives biology. Right. Like, I think our culture selects for that. So the peoples whose genetics reflect that, you know, tend to be more successful. So I think it's a bit of both. But it's certainly, you know, our society turns women into sex objects and men into performance objects. And I think that's one of the things that we need to start to unpack quite a bit and let people just be who they are for the sake of being instead of what they can do.
- [80:46]
Chris
Yeah, definitely. Or how sexy they can look.
- [80:50]
Ronan
Exactly.
- [80:51]
Chris
Yeah. But, you know, it's. I was thinking about this as I was what I wanted most growing up, listening to conversation. And you know what's funny? What comes up for me is really like structure.
- [81:03]
Ronan
Right.
- [81:04]
Chris
Where both of my parents had difficult, challenging childhoods in which money was tight, there wasn't always emotional support. My, My dad joins the army to get out of West Philly. My mom, My mom also joins the army.
- [81:23]
Ronan
Okay.
- [81:24]
Chris
To get out of small town Arizona. And then I'm born in an army base a couple years later as they. They meet. And. And so I think because of that incredibly, like, tough, rigid, structured thing, they were like, chris, do whatever you want. Just like, go have fun. Like, you know, you don't have to have our childhood. You want to get a film degree. Cool. You want to play music, go for it. But it's just so funny how we always want what we don't have. Where I was left feeling. I was like, you guys were in the army. Can't you give me a little bit of structure in life?
- [82:03]
Ronan
Yeah, I get the sense that it goes a little bit deeper, which is. It probably speaks to you on a soul level of, you know, don't you care? Don't you care enough to give me some parameters? Or you're just gonna let me do whatever the you want because you don't care or let me do whatever I want because you don't care would be my guess about how it hits you on a. On a deeper level.
- [82:30]
Chris
Yeah. I think every teenager wants to stay out till 2 or 3 or 4 in the morning, and then when you. There's, like, no consequences and no one cares, and it's like, you're not even a little bit pissed off that I, like, was just out all night?
- [82:46]
Ronan
Totally, totally. But thank you for sharing that. That's. That's very vulnerable, I think. Well, having men share these things more and more is important, and I think Jason does a great job of that too.
- [82:57]
Chris
And, you know, it's interesting how we just so much of our. These energetics come back to, like, overcompensating. So I. I sharing with you about lack of structure. So now I. I try to create structure and control, and my place is very tidy and clean, and everything's organized, so it just feels like this oscillation, like, back and forth and back and forth.
- [83:20]
Ronan
Yep, a hundred percent. All right, buddy. I am sweating like it's a fucking sauna in here. I can see the sheen on my forehead, so I didn't know God lot in Canada.