Meeting The Beatles In India w/ Paul Saltzman

Summary

The Ronan Levy Podcast: Meeting The Beatles In India with Paul Saltzman

Host: Ronan Levy
Guest: Paul Saltzman
Episode Release Date: September 12, 2024

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Introduction

Ronan Levy welcomes listeners to an insightful episode featuring Paul Saltzman, a renowned movie producer and television director. Paul shares his unique experiences, including his time spent with The Beatles in India during the pivotal 1960s. This conversation delves into themes of happiness, success, meditation, and societal evolution, aligning with Ronan's mission to "rewrite the rules of happiness, redefine success, and rediscover what’s meaningful."

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Paul Saltzman’s Early Encounters and Influences

Paul begins by recounting his early career, highlighting his work with the National Film Board of Canada and his significant encounter with Buckminster Fuller.

• Interview with Buckminster Fuller ([00:00]): Paul reflects on interviewing Fuller at Expo 67, emphasizing Fuller's humility and profound insights. Notably, Fuller remarked, "we have all the money you could ever dream of, we have all the fame you could ever wish for. But it isn't love, it isn't health, it isn't peace inside, is it?" ([00:48]).

• Influence of His Father: Paul's father, a television meteorologist and interviewer, instilled in him the importance of humility and thorough preparation. Paul shares, "It's not about you... do your homework." ([00:48]).

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Journey to India and Meeting The Beatles

The heart of the episode centers on Paul's transformative journey to India and his time with The Beatles at Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's ashram in Rishikesh.

• The Call to India ([29:15] – [37:37]): Paul describes a profound moment where his soul guides him to seek solace in India after a heartbreak. He narrates the emotional farewell with his girlfriend Trisha and his immediate challenge upon arrival—waiting outside the closed ashram for eight days.

• Experiencing the Ashram ([37:37] – [58:14]): During his stay, Paul meditates for the first time, achieving a state of bliss that profoundly impacts him. He recounts meeting The Beatles, sharing a meaningful interaction where John Lennon and George Harrison offer insights into love, peace, and inner contentment.

  • John Lennon’s Wisdom ([35:11] – [58:14]): Paul recalls John saying, "love can be very hard on us sometimes... the really great thing about love is you always get another chance." ([35:11]).

  • George Harrison’s Humility: Highlighting George's genuine humility, Paul shares George's reflection on fame and inner peace, reinforcing the idea that external success does not equate to internal fulfillment.

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Lessons on Success, Happiness, and Meditation

The conversation transitions into broader reflections on societal values, the pursuit of happiness, and the role of meditation.

• Redefining Success ([15:03] – [16:34]): Paul challenges the mantra "no pain, no gain," explaining its detrimental effects on the subconscious. Instead, he advocates for creating through joy and love, aligning with Irwin and Lazaris's teachings on fear versus love-based creation.

• Societal Reflections ([16:45] – [28:53]): Paul and Ronan discuss the cultural shifts from the 1960s to the present day, touching on movements like the civil rights movement, Woodstock, and the resurgence of yoga and meditation. Paul expresses skepticism about the optimistic predictions surrounding AI and technology, arguing that greed and power dynamics may undermine the potential for a harmonious, passion-driven future.

  • Buckminster Fuller’s Insight ([28:30]): Paul references Fuller's perspective: "spaceship Earth has enough resources for everyone. The problem is in the distribution." ([28:52]).

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Woodstock: A Magical Cultural Icon

Paul recounts his experience attending Woodstock, emphasizing its unexpected tranquility and sense of community.

• Arrival and Experience ([64:15] – [70:54]): He humorously shares how a serendipitous ad in the Village Voice led him and friends to Woodstock. Despite initial challenges, including a humorous encounter with border guards, their experience was marked by peace, music, and a lack of the chaos often associated with large festivals.

  • Reflection on Woodstock’s Impact ([68:44] – [73:04]): Paul admits that while Woodstock felt like "just a music festival" at the time, its historical significance became apparent with hindsight. He emphasizes living in the moment versus analyzing events as they unfold.

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Paul’s Lasting Connection with The Beatles

Paul discusses a serendipitous reconnection with Paul McCartney decades later, showcasing the enduring impact of his experiences.

• Reconnection Story ([52:06] – [63:04]): In 2008, Paul received a call from McCartney’s team requesting to use his Beatles photos for a benefit performance. Paul humbly agreed, reflecting, "I wouldn't have these pictures if it wasn't for their generosity." ([52:06]).

  • Legacy of the Encounter: This reconnection underscores the profound and lasting influence The Beatles had on Paul’s life and career.

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Insights on Personal Growth and Inner Guidance

Throughout the episode, Paul emphasizes the importance of listening to one's inner voice and the role of meditation in personal transformation.

• Inner Voice and Meditation ([63:04] – [73:04]): Paul shares personal anecdotes about heeding his soul’s guidance, leading to significant life changes. He advocates for trusting the positive inner voice over the destructive negative voice, fostering a message of self-awareness and inner peace.

  • Integration of Head and Heart ([29:15] – [37:37]): Paul's realization about integrating intellect and emotion, inspired by a teacher’s teachings, highlights the holistic approach to personal development.

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Conclusion

Ronan and Paul conclude the episode with mutual gratitude and reflections on their shared values of joy, connection, and making the world a better place. Paul underscores the importance of heartful living and conscious communication, aligning with Ronan’s mission to foster meaningful and positive societal transformations.

• Final Thoughts ([73:04] – [73:11]): Paul expresses his honor in sharing his story, reinforcing the podcast’s theme of using personal narratives to inspire and uplift listeners.

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Notable Quotes

1. Buckminster Fuller on Success:

   • "We have all the money you could ever dream of, we have all the fame you could ever wish for. But it isn't love, it isn't health, it isn't peace inside, is it?" ([00:48])

2. Paul on Meditation and Inner Peace:

   • "Meditation takes us beneath and below our daily worries and concerns to a place of inner rejuvenation from which we come back renewed and refreshed." ([37:37])

3. John Lennon on Love:

   • "The really great thing about love is you always get another chance." ([35:11])

4. Buckminster Fuller on Resources:

   • "Spaceship Earth has enough resources for everyone. The problem is in the distribution." ([28:52])

5. Paul on Positive Inner Voice:

   • "The negative voice always lies. So if we want to know the truth, hear the negative voice and just say, oh, well, the truth has got to be the exact opposite." ([58:14])

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Key Takeaways

• Redefining Success: True fulfillment comes from love, health, and inner peace rather than money, fame, or societal status.

• Power of Meditation: Meditation serves as a transformative tool for personal healing and inner clarity.

• Humility and Connection: Even icons like The Beatles display profound humility and seek meaningful connections beyond their fame.

• Inner Guidance: Listening to one's inner voice is crucial for personal growth and navigating life's challenges.

• Societal Evolution: Reflecting on past cultural movements can offer insights into current societal shifts and future potentials.

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Paul Saltzman's story is a testament to the transformative power of inner guidance, humility, and meaningful connections. His experiences offer valuable lessons on redefining success, embracing personal growth, and fostering a more compassionate and joyful life.

Transcript

[A]

George and I are sitting alone and I just felt moved to say I love the way you brought the sitar into Beatles music and Norwegian Wood. And he just lit up and he spent maybe 10 minutes sharing how he first found the sitar on the set of Help, how he picked it up and started plunking it. He was a man of profound humility. He said to me, like, we're the Beechels after all, aren't we? We have all the money you could ever dream of, we have all the fame you could ever wish for. But it isn't love, it isn't health, it isn't peace inside, is it? He was 24 years old and I was 24. Amazing that he knew that. That was life changing for me.

[B]

Hey everyone, ronan here. On November 22, 1968, Beatles released a self titled album that would eventually come to be known as the Beatles White Album. Despite initial mixed reviews, the White Album has come to be seen as one of the Beatles and accordingly, rock and roll's crowning achievements. Featuring songs like Revolution, Blackbird, Helter Skelter, Obladi Oblada and many more, much of the album was conceived of and written while the Beatles were holed up in Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's ashram in Rishikesh, India. Now, to me, I couldn't imagine what it must have been like to be witness to such a pivotal moment, both in terms of music and given the role that the Beatles and the White Album played in the countercultural movement of the 60s society. And even though this somewhat incorrigible Jewish kid from the Greater Toronto area couldn't be there, another Jewish kid from Toronto happened to find himself let into the ashram during that time and witnessed it all. His name is Paul Saltzman. Paul is a movie producer and television director whose works include the documentaries Meeting the Beatles in India, the Last White Knight, Prom Night in Mississippi, Danger Bay and My Secret Identity. And as cool as his experience in India with the Beatles may have been, it is by no means the only incredible story in Paul's incredibly fascinating life and career. As you'll hear in this conversation, two quick things before we hop into the show. The first is that Paul has been a dear friend and mentor to me over the last 15 years. And so I consider it an honor and a gift to be able to share his story with you, Paul. I hope you appreciate it. Second, if you're thirsty before you embark on this magical mystery tour of a conversation, let me suggest you grab a quench. I promise you'll love it. Use levy 20 for 20% [e-mail] that's quench spelled with C W E N C H. Enjoy the conversation. I want to start with a quote that's on your Wikipedia page from Buckminster Fuller, which apparently he commented, you changed my idea of the 60s generation. Before I met you, I thought it was a lost generation. And in the conversations we've had, sounds like you were present for some pivotal moments of the 1960s. We were talking about the civil rights movement, which was obviously a fairly significant event of the 60s and still very much alive today. But I also wanted to talk about. You were there at Woodstock. You also happened to transverse India at a particularly interesting time. And I'd love to hear those stories. And you know, a couple years ago I had a the opportunity to interview Dr. Andrew Weil, who I don't know if you know who Dr. Weil is, but he was the person who had outed Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert at Harvard about their psychedelic use. And I was very curious about the experience that he had being present for all of that. And we've had a couple of conversations of that. But I'd love to hear your perspective of what it was like at those moments then looking back. And you know, we both work with Irwin, who I reference a lot in this podcast. And it does feel like something is happening right now that's scary and exciting at the same time. And so I'd love your perspective on how you feel those kind of compare, because to me not having lived it, but through the lens I've seen, it felt like there was something exciting, really exciting happening in the 60s. A lot of trauma, a lot of challenges, but something very exciting. And it feels like something like that is happening now to me as well. So lots to cover. But why don't we start with that quote from. From Bucky Fuller and go from there and then wait until Woodstock and India?

[A]

Sure. So with Bucky Fuller, what happened was that I was the co host of a youth public affairs show on CBC Television, which was pretty cool because it was a network right across the country. We had an hour every Sunday from 2 to 3 o'clock. The show itself had a pretty yucky name. It was called through the Eyes of Tomorrow. You know, good idea, but not a great title for a show. Yeah, but I was co host and then after a year of co hosting, I was an interviewer and a story editor on a freelance basis. And one of the beautiful things was that I got to interview Bucky Fuller. At the Youth pavilion at Expo 67. And I had an hour with him, you know, three camera video. And my father, who was a positive and negative in my life, as many parents can be, gave me a couple of wonderful pieces of advice. He was a television meteorologist, a interviewer, a host of shows, and he gave me two excellent pieces of advice about interviewing. He said, number one, it's not about you. And of course, you know, you can see interviewers where it is about them apparently, when it's really not about them. And the other thing is, he said, do your homework, right? And I remember my father, if he was interviewing an author, he would read the whole book the night before. He was a very fast reader, he was a bookish person, he was introverted. So books was something that he escaped into my father. So with Bucky Fuller, I did my research and I learned that a number of his inventions or creations or discoveries, one of them being, and maybe the most famous is the geodesic dome. The dome you see over radar installations in the Arctic or whatever. And that became a fad for building, you know, hip homes in the 60s. And the American Pavilion at Expo 67 was probably the biggest geodesic dome ever built. It's worth looking it up on the Internet if you're interested. And, and I, in the research, he said that he didn't invent it, he discovered it in plant structure. And he said, and, and what happened was that he put it out into the world and very few people grocked to it for 25 years. It took about 25 years before the world woke up and said, whoa, this is fantastic. And so in the research I found there were other things that he put out into the world and it seemed to take 25 years or whatever before people caught up to it. So my last question to him in the interview was I said, I've read up about you, I've noticed this. So what do you see 25 years from now? So that was 1967 and 25 years would be 1992. And this is what he said. I can quote what he said because it was such a powerful moment. He said, well, we'll be communicating telepathically. We already have the senders and receivers, we just need to learn how to use them. And I've experienced that in my life in real time, not often, but for real. And then he said, and will be constructing with force fields. And I, in my beautiful, naive, still wet behind the ears, 21 year old brain, I said to him, well, if we'll Be constructing with force fields, how will we have privacy? And he, in his wise, elder, kind hearted, gentle, understanding way, he said very gently, he said, well, don't you think if we can construct with force fields, we'll know how to make them opaque? Cut. Cut to five years later, I'm in New Delhi and I'm doing an hour long television documentary on James George, who was then the Canadian High Commissioner or ambassador is the equivalent from Canada to India. He was also the ambassador to Nepal at the same time, and he had been five years ambassador to Sri Lanka before that. And he was the most conscious person I'd ever met until that point in my life. So I made a film about him. So I'm filming in New Delhi and one day over lunch, Jim George says, oh, a friend of mine's in town, very interesting man, maybe you'd like to film with him. Who's that? Bucky Fuller. I said, I know Bucky Fuller a little bit. I said, where's he staying? And he said, he's staying at the Ashoka Hotel. Now, what's really interesting in the subtext here for me is I believe that all the remarkable experiences I've had come from one thing, my heart and curiosity. Because instead of doing the normal of could you ask him? Which I could have said to the High Commissioner and therefore this event might never have happened. I didn't ask him that. I didn't even think of it. I just said, where is he staying? I'll call him. He said, he's staying at the Ashoka Hotel. So I called Bucky up that afternoon. He lifted. He picked up the phone in his hotel room and I said, hi, Bucky, you probably don't remember me, my name is. And I interviewed you at. And I'm here filming. And Jim George thought it would be fascinating and fun. Would you be up for filming with us? Just a conversation between you and Jim. And he said, well, why don't you come over for breakfast tomorrow morning and we'll talk about it. And I guess the reason he did that is revealed in what happened next as I go for breakfast the next morning. And over breakfast he says, just out of the blue, he says, you changed my idea of the 60s generation. And I said, how do you mean? Because what did I know? And he said that sentence. He said, well, I thought it was a lost generation until I met you. Well, that's one of the nicest things any human being has ever said to me. You know, just how one is received and seen and reflected back. So that's how that happened. And I think. I think in terms of. And, you know, it's a funny thing, I never tried to stay in touch with him. You know, I'm conscious of, gee, the guy's busier than anything. And it was the same thing with meeting the Beatles. You know, people say to me at times, did you stay in touch with them after? I spent a week with them and took pictures of them, as you know. And as I was leaving, John Lennon said, hey, Paul, will you send us some of your pictures? And I said, sure. And Jane Asher said, right there. Paul's girlfriend at the time was Jane Asher. She said, here, take my home number. If you call Apple, their company, you'll never get through to them.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Which is, you know, hi, my name's Paul Saltzman. John went and said, click, sorry. Like everyone and their mother and father and uncle and aunt is calling Apple's office trying to get to the Beatles. So, you know, that's not going to work. So six months later, I was passing through London, I was working on the first IMAX film, and I called and we had a cup of tea in Kensington, and it was very lovely. Jane Asher's a lovely, very bright person.

[B]

Sorry. On to talking about Jane Asher, we've moved on from Bucky Fuller just to.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know if I have more to say about Bucky. Do you want to go back to that, though?

[B]

I just have a question, which, you know, it's. It's pure speculation, but why do you think he thought it was a lost generation? And what do you think you did to change that perspective, or. Yeah, well, what made it a lost generation, do you think?

[A]

Well, I think I can only say that phrase was used in some writings by some critics of the hippie period. You know, lost generation. Like, they're smoking dope and getting laid and having free sex and why aren't they working at jobs? You know, or they're dropping out of the war in Vietnam and they're refusing to go, or they're dropping out of higher education, so they're lost. That's where I believe it came from. Yeah, so Bucky observed that. I. Obviously, he must have read those things, but definitely observed it. You know, kids laying about, being stoned and grooving. And Bucky came from a different generation where if you didn't act, if you didn't do, you weren't going to create or accomplish. So, you know, I was in. I was 21. I can't remember how old he was, but he was an elder to Me, he was. Maybe he was 50 or 60 then, I'm not sure. So I think that's probably where it came from.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny, I had Professor David Nutt on the podcast a couple of months ago and he's been instrumental in the psychedelic renaissance and he was talking about when MDMA was banned in the UK and some of the scientists around the table, whereas he was trying to take a more scientific approach. And he has this great quote which I won't do justice to, but he was like, the response of the scientist would be like, ecstasy. I've never had ecstasy. People are having. I never had sex. And that's why they kind of banned it. And it sounds like that's a recurring theme throughout history.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not supposed to have fun, you're supposed to suffer. You know, I think I may have said this to you, but to me the worst phrase in the English language is no pain, no gain. Right. And the reason for that is because the subconscious takes things literally. And so if you tell yourself no pain, no gain, the subconscious says, oh, oh, I guess we have to create pain because without it there's no gain. Well, that's total insanity, you know, and, and this is something I learned from Irwin and the Lazaris work, which is you can create through struggle or you can create through joy. You can come from love or you can come from fear. And so you know that no pain, no gain is a, to me, a terrible instruction to the subconscious.

[B]

Right, Yep. Yeah, I think that's entirely fair. And you and I bonded over the phrase let it be easy as a mantra and.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Alternative to no pain, no gain.

[A]

Yep. I remind myself, let it be easy every day when I find myself in struggle because I'm, you know, I was trained and brought up in the same world of, you know, of struggle based and fear based, the world that we see outside today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I understand. Okay. Sorry for diversion from.

[A]

No, I think that relates to your question about the 60s. You want to go there for a moment?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So I think what happened in the 60s was a new age partially that that somehow out of the Second World War and the suffering and the struggles to just have people make a living in the 50s and dealing with the aftermath of the trauma and the 60s generation, as I experienced it, there was a whole movement saying, no, no, no, it's not about money and having two cars in the driveway. It's about joy and peace and love. And so, you know, the movement which has been called, you know, the love movement, or the hippie movement or whatever other names there. I think there was a shift of consciousness in which a whole generation. And it's not that it wasn't there before, and it's not that it wasn't there after, and it's not that it isn't here today. There are people who learn and grow through understanding that love is the path. You know, the. The whole thing about. I think this is a phrase from the Bible, but I'm not sure the phrase of, you know, God is truth and truth is God. That is all you know and all you need to know. And the same thing with love. God is love. Love is God. At least divine presence in the universe is how I understand the word God, divine presence. So I think the 60s absolutely had big elements of a new age and that. That as things do ebb and flow, you know, the 70s, kids were turning on less and drinking more alcohol, you know, and of course there was a whole lobby against psychedelics, against marijuana, against the court, the kind of free love concept, whatever free love meant. And so the world kind of went backwards a step, in a way, in the 70s and 80s. And so what's happening today, I'm not sort of. I can only tell you my own view, which is, yes, it seems to be a resurgence of people interested in yoga, meditation, love. Not struggling to attain work from home through the pandemic opened up the whole thing of, well, maybe you don't have to go into the office. Maybe you don't have to be policed by the boss. Maybe you can, in fact, be more creative and more productive in whatever setting you feel most comfortable in. And so there's that whole challenge right now, even to the structures of showing up at the office and post pandemic. And that's being debated and there's studies done. In fact. In fact, the McKinsey Consulting Group in New York came out with a study a few months ago, and it basically said this. If you want the best out of your employees, let them decide their hours and where to work within whatever parameters you need to have. But let them choose. Let there be the freedom of choice. And you will get more. They said you'll get more productivity and you'll get more loyalty.

[B]

It's interesting.

[A]

There is.

[B]

I just read an article which I think is right. You know, it's a little bit in the future, but it was predicting that as AI and technology starts to take over all the mundane tasks, you know, the world of work is going to become fantastic because all work will be pursued by people Doing the things that they actually want to do, because all the mundane stuff that we don't want to do will be taken care of by artificial intelligence, robots, all that kind of stuff. And so we're going to enter like a, A beautiful era of work where you follow your passions. Because all the other stuff is not necessary to be done or is being taken care of by other things.

[A]

Well, I hope, but I'm not hopeful.

[B]

Interesting. Why is that?

[A]

Because the baser instincts of human beings never cease to amaze me more, you know, because, you know, I've, I've, I've. I haven't studied AI but I've listened to some very deep and brilliant conversations among experts. And, you know, anybody who thinks the arms race brings peace. No, it doesn't bring peace. Brings a lot of profit to the armament companies. It brings a lot of threats and a lot of. And yes, but what's the best deterrent for to war? Now, this will be called airy fairy. The best determined to war is people being in their hearts, people getting to know other people, people realizing that differences can be, can be thrilling and productive and uplifting as opposed to fighting over our differences. But even that is a bit airy fairy. It comes down to dollars. If AI is doing all these things, there's a lot of people going to be out of work. There already are a lot of people out of work. The studies being done now, and I've read some of them, the rich are getting richer, money begets money. The poor are getting poorer. What's going to happen? Because unfortunately, there's something about money that is a drug. There's something about money that's a drug. I happen to know, as a close friend, a billionaire, and I happen to know a number of other people as friends, maybe not close, who are multi. Multimillionaires. It's very fascinating how money becomes a contraction, right? One of the billionaires said to me that he knew somebody, well, who had, who was worth $500 million, and he's very unhappy. I said, why is he unhappy? He said he feels bad because most of his friends are billionaires and he only has $500 million. The human psyche is a marvelous and insane thing. So when you get people with. When you get AI and you get greed and you get power, I don't have a lot of hope that we're all going to be happy doing what we love the most, because the rich and the powerful seem to need more wealth and more power to feel good about themselves in general. Big generalization.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Big Generalization. I'll tell you one little story from the 60s, if I may.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'm. So when I was at the ashram, waiting outside to get in to learn meditation, and the Beatles were there, and I said this to you, which was, it wasn't good news. The Beatles were there. I was heartbroken. I was trying to find a relief to the heartbreak. And meditation turned out to be a miracle relief. But I met Louis Lapham, who at that point was a freelance magazine writer from New York and became the editor of Harper's magazine for 30 years and a famous American author. He's still alive, he's still writing. He's 89 or 90. And I still know him and saw him in New York a couple months ago, and he's in my Beatles film. But Lewis invited me when I got back from India to come to Long island to his summer rental house just to hang for a few days.

[B]

So this was back in the 60s, or more recently.

[A]

No, this is 1968. Okay, this the summer of 68. And. And he says to me, there's two people going to join us this afternoon. One is my neighbor who's a major stockbroker in New York, and the other is someone I've known for years who's just retired from the CIA. Very interesting. I'm a hippie. I've got long hair. I'm wearing Indian white kurta pajama clothes. And his trends arrive. And at one point, the stockbroker pulls out a real gold cigarette case. Gold. And he opens it up, and in the cigarette case are machine rolled joints, perfectly rolled marijuana. And he passes it around. And in those days, marijuana was so light and gentle. So each of us had our own joint and all. And it just made you beautifully open and so on. And then we're kind of grooving. And then the stockbroker says this. He says, yeah, you know those hippies down in the Village, they deserve to get busted. And I say, why? Well, you know, I mean, they're smoking dope and they're laying around. And I said, aren't we smoking dope? Are we laying around right now? You know, how often do the rich say, oh, the people on welfare? The same rich who are using lawyers and accountants to evade as much tax as they can. I read an article about 10 years ago that the six richest men, they happen to be men, maybe it was 15 years ago. The six richest men in America had in the previous year paid $0 of personal income tax because it all gets funneled this way and that way. And of course it's a big game. And high end tax consultants and other experts find loopholes to not pay your taxes. And I've heard those same type of people say, yeah, people on welfare, well, they deserve to. Where's the compassion? Where's the empathy? And of course a lot of people have it, the compassion, empathy. But I, I am not hopeful about the future where greed and power seem to be growing and where AI is not going to serve the little person as much as it's going to serve the rich and the powerful. A they have it, A they know how to use it better, A they'll hire experts to whatever, whatever. So I am an optimist. I want to say that I am an optimist and right now I'm a little, I don't know.

[B]

My thoughts on that are as follows. One is, I've become quite certain that as soon as you listen to experts, you've been shown exactly what will not happen because experts are unanimously wrong. And then B, I'm still optimistic that we're in a entering a, you know, post scarcity world where there's going to be more than enough, you know, for everybody. And then you move to a universal basic income. So you're still going to have billionaires and they're still going to have a lot more than everybody else. But as long as everybody has enough, then this world can work. And we already see the kind of tides turning towards that a little bit, I think. And I'm optimistic that'll continue because having a whole bunch of money in a world where there's nothing and no one, you know, I know greed can be a powerful, powerful motivator, but at a certain point people do wake up being like, what's the point of having money if there's nothing else around me? The Scrooge mentality can go far, but I don't think it can go that far.

[A]

I hope so. No, I hope so and I pray so. And interestingly, we've been talking about Bucky Fuller because you're reminding me of something he said back in the 60s, and I quote, he said, spaceship Earth has enough resources for everyone. The problem is in the distribution. Yep.

[B]

Yep, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, we were talking, you kind of started down the path of the time at the ashram in India. So you mentioned you were heartbroken. I know a lot of this is told in your movie, but why don't you tell us the full story and maybe some of the highlights of your time there.

[A]

Okay, so the short version, I was 23 years old at the end of 1967, I had a unique experience. I was working for the National Film Board of Canada. I woke up in my little rented room across from the railroad tracks. I was a. I was an assistant director, production manager, researcher, working at the Film Board. And I woke up one morning and I had the shocking thought that there were parts of myself I didn't like. And it was a shock because I thought everything was going well. I drove a sports car. I got laid in the 60s. Language.

[B]

I think that language still works these days.

[A]

Yeah. I was respectful of women. I believed that it was most important and had been taught by my parents. They said to my brother and I, when we were 13, 14 years old, and one of those moments, that was a great gift. They said, it's okay if you sleep with a woman, but there's two things to remember. One, she's a human being. Two, contraception is your responsibility. That was brilliant because we were just young boys, my brother and I, and there would come a time where we would want to be sexually active. So I thought everything was going well. I'd been in this. Worked in the civil rights movement. I felt proud of that in the sense of feeling good about self. I'd already been the host of the TV show and interviewed Bucky Fuller. I thought everything was going well. But I woke up and had the shocking thought. And I swung my legs over the edge of my bed. I remember like it was yesterday. And I said out loud, without thinking, and that's the key, without thinking. The head is a wonderful computer. It's a shitty guidance system. The heart is a wonderful guidance system. It's a shitty computer. And a really evolved sage that I worked with in the late 80s, a teacher of consciousness. He once said in a group, and I was sitting there, he said, if I had to sum up all my books and all my lectures and all my learning and all my growth into one sentence, I'd say it's all about integrating the head and the heart, which is beautiful. Integrate the computer with the guidance system. So I said out loud, without thinking, I heard myself say. It was this odd experience. I heard myself say, what do I do about this? That I had discovered parts of myself I didn't like. And I heard my soul talk to me for the first time. And I didn't believe in a soul. I was brought up as a. As a sort of progressive atheist. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto. Do. Do unto you, was what I was taught, as opposed to religion or Other things. And so I said out loud, what do I do about this? And I heard this deep inner voice that was all calming and all loving. Imagine that, an inner voice, all loving and all calming. And I'd never heard that voice before. And I heard that voice and it said these words, it says, well, Paul, if you really want to look at yourself more carefully, you might want to get away from the environment you grew up in. And I said out loud, without thinking, it was this weird conversation, I said, where do I go? And that inner voice said, india. And that was the end of the conversation. And I had no interest in India. I knew nothing about India. Meditation, mysticism, no interest in it. But I got myself to India and I said goodbye to my girlfriend Trisha. And we loved each other dearly. And we both cried a lot. We didn't want to part. She cried, I cried, and I got to India and I worked on a film for six weeks, which was how I paid my way over. And I got to Delhi and I got my first letter from her and excitedly opened up this aerogram. And the first line was, dear Paul, I've moved in with Henry. And I was devastated. I was shattered. It was, you know, we, we've all had, or hopefully we've all had heartbreaks in our life. I say hopefully because I've read, and I think it's true that if you've never had a heartbreak, your compassion can't go as deep for the feelings for yourself and the feelings for others. But I was devastated and somebody said, why don't you try meditation for the heartbreak? That led me to go to the ash ramp, that led me to wait outside the gate for eight days because I couldn't get in. And then I was allowed in and I was taught meditation. It took five minutes. I did a 30 minute meditation and it was a miracle. I came out of the meditation and the heartbreak, the knife in the heart was gone. The screaming I could hear in my head was gone. I still love Patricia and I still wanted to get back with her. We couldn't make that work. We were both so hurt by the abandonment of the other in our young thinking that we really couldn't sit down and just talk it through, which would have been the way to solve it because when I got back to Toronto, like a month later, she and Henry weren't living together anymore. It hadn't worked out, you know, for her. It had been an impulsive way to deal with her heartbreak that I left because she felt I left her. Well, I didn't Leave her. I was going to find myself, but we were just too young. So where would you like to go from there?

[B]

So let's just include a little bit more detail. So you, you. You get the call from your soul that you should go to India. You follow it, you head to India, you get the aerogram. You learn that Trish has broken up with you. And so you decide to head to. What was the name of the ashram and. And why that one in particular?

[A]

Well, it was the Maharishi Mahesh Yogis Ashram and Rishikesh. And I went there because a few days after I got the letter, a man I knew for three days in my life named Al Brag, he's American. I've tried to f. I've tried to find him. I thanked him at the time, but I'd like to thank him with much more depth of meaning today. But there's a bunch of Al Brags and I haven't found the right one. But he could feel my pain. He could see my pain. And he said, why don't you try meditation for the heartbreak? I said, I'll try anything. He said, I'm going to hear the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi talk at New Delhi University. Do you want to come? And I didn't know who that was, but I said, sure. And there was a lecture. The. The lecture hall was packed, four or five hundred people. And this little Indian sage, wise man, Guru, whatever the word is, spoke. And the one thing I remember, he said, and I only remember this one thing he said, I guess it was the thing of meaning that I had gone to find. He said, meditation takes us beneath and below our daily worries and concerns to a place of inner rejuvenation from which we come back renewed and refreshed. I thought, I need that. That's what I need. So I knew he had an ashram in Rishikesh. I took an early morning express train a few days later. And I just asked, I asked the cab driver, where's the Maharishi's ashram? I didn't know there were lots of ashrams in Rishikesh. That it was and is a center of meditation and yoga to this day. Some people call it the yoga capital of the world, which may just be promotion, but it may be true. Sure. And so I found my way to the Maharishi's ashram just by asking and being pointed literally that way.

[B]

And so you get there, you knock on the door and you're told you can't Come in. Can you just expand on that?

[A]

So I, so I. The man who came to the gate to meet me, there was a guard who didn't speak English and it was locked. There was a gate and the man who came to talked to me turned out to be an angel. And my angel, his name was Ragh Vendra. He was a 33 year old disciple of the Maharishi. He was in charge of running the ashram, the arrangements. And I said, I've come to her in meditation. He said, I'm sorry, the ashram's closed because the Beatles and their wives are here and we're doing a course for TM teachers. And I didn't even know the Beatles were in India. I was already a fan, I already had had my life changed by things they said in their music. Especially the song Tomorrow Never Knows, the last song on Rubber Soul. Turn off your mind and float downstream. You are not dying, you are not dying. Go towards the light, it is shining, it is shining. I remember listening to that with Trisha lying on the front lawn with the little stereo and the long yellow extension cord with my arm and her head on my arm and we're cuddling, we had just smoked a joint and we're listening to Revolver the first, you know, you go to the store, you buy it the first day because otherwise it sells out in a few hours and then you have to wait weeks for the restocking. So I got, I got the album the first day and the last song is playing and turn off your mind and floats and string, you're not dying. And the song finishes and Ronan. I remember exactly what I thought. I thought, what are they talking about? And the next thought, exact next thought was, well, if they're talking about something real, it's something my teachers and my parents have never spoken to me about. And the third thought was it feels like it's real. So that, that was what. Then when I went to the ashram, they were there. Crazy didn't know I have to wait outside. So then finally after eight days, oh rag vendor said, I'm sorry, no. I said, can I wait? And I love language because a language helps us if we really can hear. Language has many road signs in it. He said, he said, the ashram's closed. I said, you have to teach me. And I told him why. And he said, well, I'll have to ask the Maharishi. I won't be able to come back for two or three hours, but I'll send you a cup of chai and down to the front gate. Twenty minutes later, he leaves a bearer. A worker comes with a tray of English china and tea, chai and sugar and milk. And I pour myself a cup of chai and I sit down on the dirt and lean up against the gate. And two or three hours later, he comes back and he says, I'm sorry. The Maharishi says, not at the present time. And again, language. I don't know what I would have said if he had just said no. He didn't say no. He said, not at the present time. And I said, can I wait? And he was a little taken aback, and he said, oh, okay. And there were two tents under the trees across the path, like old army tents, where, you know, a wood platform that sleeps six or eight people. He said, the first tent is used by the. By the tailor from the town below, who comes up every day to measure and make the clothing that people are wearing in the ashram. If you want, the other tent's empty. He said, you're welcome to sleep there, Adam. We'll send you our simple vegetarian meals. This was an angel. This was an angel. So I waited for eight days because that's how long it took before he said, okay, you can come in now. Yeah, he came and talked to me every day. And I think he very quickly understood. I was in pain, I was in agony. I wasn't there to meet the Beatles. I wasn't there to interview them. It was not good news. They were there. It was not good news because I couldn't get in. So I do the first meditation he teaches me. Took five minutes. It's a miracle. I come out of the meditation and I'm in a state of bliss. And later, George Harrison, when we were sitting alone, he said to me, I get higher meditating than I ever did on drugs. And I knew what he meant because I had done my share of acid and peyote and marijuana. I didn't like hash, their hashish very much. I felt it was too strong for me. But I had found the same thing in my first meditation, that bliss. So I come out of the meditation, I'm in a state of bliss. It's like I miracle. Who knew? And I go out of the meditation. He had said to me before he left me alone, he said, you're now welcome to spend your days in the ashram and take your meals with us, was his phrase, so. But he said, there's no extra beds, so you'll have to stay in the tent. I said, great, thank you. And I go outside and the Ashram is not large, maybe, I don't know, quarter of a mile by quarter of a mile. And I'm just walking through the ashram and seeing the odd monkey and big green parakeets in the trees. And it's quiet. And the river below is. The Ganges is a couple hundred feet below, down a cliff. And I'm not thinking of beetles at all. They're not in my mind. I'm just so relieved not to be in agony and in this altered state. And I look over to the right as I'm walking along, and I see John Lennon maybe, I don't know, 150ft away, 200ft away. And I can't see who he's talking to, but I see the back of the head. And other people are lost in kind of their. The foliage. And in the altered state, I find myself turning towards him. It's literally not a thought, Rahman. There was no thought. I just am curving and I'm about halfway to him and I notice, oh, my heart's beating faster. Like, literally, I'm not engaged. I'm in an altered state. It's like a notice, oh, my heart's beating faster. So I get to the edge of the table where he's sitting and Paul McCartney sitting opposite him. And there's Ringo and George. And Patty Boyd was George's wife. And Cynthia Lennon with John and Maureen Starkey with Ringo and Jane Asher, Paul's girlfriend. And Mia Farrow, the American actress. Donovan, the Scottish folk singer. Mike Love, the lead singer of the Beach Boys. And Mal Evans, they're roadie. So there's 12 of them. And I'm at the end of the table. I'm two feet from John and two feet from Paul. And then the table going away from me. And I don't say anything. I don't want to interrupt. And after a moment, they realize somebody's standing there, so they stop talking. And John looks up at me, and with complete calm in this altered state, complete calm, I say, may I join you? And he says, sure, mate, pull up a chair. And Paul pulls a chair over and I sit down at the end of the table. And then three magic things happen. And I love the definition of magic, that which is real, but we as yet, do not understand. That's one of the meanings in the Oxford Etymological Dictionary, one of the least used meanings. You and I have spoken about that a bit. And so three magic things happen. The first thing that happens is as soon as I sit down, I hear this scream in my head, Eek. It's the Beatles. I've never said that in my life. I've never thought that. I saw them live in Toronto in 64. I wasn't screaming. I was like this, trying to hear them over the screaming crowd. Maple leaf gardens, 18,000 people, flash bulbs, the electricity. It was amazing. I've been to rock concerts and Woodstock. Most electric moment of my whole life was in that arena as the Beatles came out and everyone was screaming and flash bulbs are going, and I'm trying to hear them. And so there's a scream in my head. E gets the Beatles. And it's like, you know, like that. And before I have a chance to think, there's that key again. Before I have a chance to think, I hear my soul talk to me for the second time in my life. And my soul says this, hey, Paul, they're just ordinary people like you. Everyone farts and is afraid in the night. That's what it said. And from that moment, I didn't think of Beatles for a week. I spent a week with them. I took 54 pictures. I could have take hundreds. I had lots of film. They said, take as many pictures you want. I could have had autographs. Never thought of it. I could have, you know, just never thought the word Beatles again, except once. And I'll tell you about that. So. So the first miracle is the fan comes up with a scream. And the second miracle, the soul comes in and says, hey, hey, you know, hey, they're just ordinary people like you. Everyone farts. And the third thing that happens magically is that John turns to me and in that wonderful, brilliant John Lennon, witness that rye Liverpudlian humor, he says to me, so you're American then? And it's not a compliment. It's like we're the Brits and you're the colonies. He says, so you're American, then? And I say, no, Canadian. And he turns to the rest of the group and he says, ah, he's from one of the colonies. And now everyone's laughing. And then he turns back to me and he says, so you're still worshiping Her Highness then? And we're all laughing and I say, no, not personally. And then Ringo and Paul start teasing me about having the Queen on our money. And I say, in the flow of this play, the third miracle is we're playing with each other, right? The fan is gone, the wise soul has spoken. Now we're playing with each other. And they tease me about having the Queen on our money. And I say, in the flow of things, I Say, well, we may have the queen on our money, but hey, she lives with you guys. So we're all laughing. John turns back to the rest of the group and he says, ah, you see, they still have a sense of humor in the colonies. And that was it. They just took me into their group. I hung out with them for a week. I could have hung out with them for a month. Yeah, I could have stayed, but I went back to see if Trisha and I could get back together. So, yeah, that was. That was magic. That was magic. And the thing about not staying in touch, when John said, will you send us some of your pictures? And then Jane said, take my number. And I met Jane in Kensington six months later for a cup of tea. And I had printed four poster size, like movie poster size, individual portraits. And I didn't have enough money to print in color, which was real expensive back then. So they were black and white. The only time I've ever printed any of my pictures in black and white. And they look terrific in black and white. I should probably do something about that. And I gave her these four prints rolled up. And you know, Ronan, I never even gave her my card. I thought, these guys don't need new film friends. Their lives are crazy. And I had gotten what I went for. I went to heal a heartbreak. I got that the icing on the cake was hanging out with these wonderful people. And John said something to me that was life changing. And George sent something to me that was life changing. Icing on the cake. I didn't need friendship. Would it have been nice? Years and years later, my phone rang, 2008, I think, and a woman says, this Paul Saltzman in my home right here in Oakville. Yes. Is this the Paul Saltzman that was in Rishikesh, India? And I'm like. And she said, yes. And I said, who's this? And she said, my name's so and so. And I'm in charge of all video and. And photographic archives for Paul McCartney at his company MPL. Paul asked me to phone you. I thought, why didn't he call himself? But I didn't make anything of that. It was just a human thought. Why didn't he call himself? She said, paul asked me to call you. He's doing a benefit performance for the David lynch foundation that teaches meditation at the Radio City Music Hall. He'll be with Ringo. It'll be the first time they perform on stage together since the breakup in 1970. Paul would like to use some of your pictures as the backdrop. A slideshow backdrop for the second last song he's going to sing. Would that be possible? And I said, sure. And she said, how much would that be? I'm going to imitate what happened because it's really precious. How much will that be? Nothing. Gratis. I wouldn't have these pictures if it wasn't for their generosity. That's exactly what I said. Silence. Beat, beat. No kidding, Rona. Beat, beat. Why does that surprise you? This has never happened before. What do you mean? Well, when people find out it's Paul McCartney, they want a lot of money. Oh, well, no gratis. I, I don't need any money. But on one condition. What's that? That you give me a copy of the slideshow for my archives that you produce. And so I do have in my archive at the University of Toronto a high resolution videotape of the, of the slideshow. And if you go on, if you go online and you punch in Google Radio City music called David lynch fundraiser Paul McCartney and you watch the song called, I think it's called Cosmically Conscious, it's the second last song Paul plays. And you'll see my images 20ft high by 60ft wide as the backdrop of the stage. Really cool.

[B]

That is very cool. What did you learn? I mean, you learned meditation, obviously, but you're also in the presence of the most creative people of a generation, arguably, and watching them do their thing, I think, I don't, I can't remember if it's in the, in the movie or you just relayed the story, but you sat there and I think you saw them kind of strumming out the music and the words to Obladi Oblada. And so, yeah, when you look back, it's like, what did you experience other than just a very cool experience and some great pictures?

[A]

Good question, great question. Two things I, I found or discovered or saw that each of them were down to earth without ego, that I could see around being Beatles. The, these four guys were different. They were very close. You could feel it like that. But there was no ego. They were all funny, humorous, warm and welcoming with me. They took me into their group just because of that play at the beginning, very important. The fan shows up, goes away, the human being is left and now they're playing being themselves. So two other things I learned that were life changing. So one was John Lennon and I were sitting alone at the table one day, everyone got up to leave, whatever, and we're sitting opposite each other and he's writing in his notebook, he's Writing music. He's writing a song and I'm finishing a cup of chai. And he looks up at me and he says, so what are you doing here? Very nicely, right? No one was allowed in. There was a teacher's course, they were inside. And there was the famous folks, as I call them in my book. And he says, so, what are you doing here? In a very kind way. And I just say briefly, heartbreak, meditation, miracle, you know. And he looks off into the distance. And one of the joys I had making the film was I could recreate these moments in a graphic novel form because there's no film of our. And there's no photographs of that conversation. And he looked off in the distance and he looked back at me and he said, ah, yes, love can be very hard on us sometimes, can't it? And I said, yes. And then he looked off in the distance again and then he looked back and he said, but you know, Paul, the really great thing about love is you always get another chance. He could not have said something more kind, more loving, more compassionate, more understanding than that. So that was a growth moment for me. That was a learning for me, that was a relief, that if Trisha and I didn't get back together, it wasn't the end of my love life, Right? And the other thing was with George, we were sitting at the table again, people got up to leave on another day, and we're sitting there opposite each other. And I mentioned that I only used the word Beatles once because nobody talked shop in the whole week. Nobody talked shop. The conversations were about the food and meditation and this and that, but wasn't shock talk. But George and I are sitting alone and I just felt moved to say, I love the way you brought the sitar into Beatles music and Norwegian wood. And he just lit up. And he spent maybe 10 minutes sharing how he first found the sitar in the set of Help, how he picked it up and started plunking it, how he was introduced to Ravi Shankar, how he listened to a Ravi Shankar letter and then he met him, and how he asked Ravi Shankar to teach him the sitar. And how he went to Bombay off and on with his wife Patty, off and on for a total of about six months of direct instruction. And then he said, I'm just going to go. I was just going to go practice. Do you want to come? And I said, great. Didn't even think of getting my camera, did not even in my brain. And it was. It's the only photo I wish I could have because we Go to this small meditation room. A white futon on the floor. We're both wearing all white Indian clothes that are the most comfortable clothes. Sun, late afternoon sun is streaming through the one window. The only color in the room other than the white was the sitar itself. And he picked up the sitar and he started to play. And I closed my eyes. And honestly, I don't know whether he played for 10 minutes or 40 minutes because time shifted into an altered state. I wasn't high, but I just closed my eyes. And the sitar is its own magical instrument. And I opened my eyes when it was. When there was no more music coming. And I was stoned. I was high, I was buzzed. I could see the energy in the room. And he and I had this amazing conversation. I wish I'd gone and written it all down, but I only remember two things because I didn't write it down. One was he said what I mentioned. He said, I get higher meditating than I ever did on drugs. And I knew what he meant. And the other thing, he then said with total humility. He was a man of profound humility. He said to me, like, we're the Beatles after all, aren't we? We have all the money you could ever dream of. We have all the fame you could ever wish for. But it isn't love, it isn't health, it isn't peace inside, is it? He was 24 years old and I was 24. Amazing that he knew that that was life changing for me. So I took that away from it. And if I talk about this experience as I am with you right now, I always make sure to tell that because that's a great signpost for people, you know, it ain't love, it ain't health, it ain't peace inside, is it? Fame and fortune, they have their value, but it ain't those.

[B]

Yeah, sounds like such a magical experience. It was a magical experience. Doesn't even sound like one. I have this, like, feeling in me that had I experienced that, I would look back in envy at what a cool experience that would be and almost feel like I'd be constantly chasing such a magical experience. Like, would always be looking to recreate it and almost probably never could. It sounds like he didn't get sucked up into that.

[A]

Thank God, eh? Thank God, Goddess. I. I say God Goddess because God is not a guy, just in case we're wondering. God is not a guy. God is masculine and feminine energy combined into the divine presence. That's my take on it. Thank God. No, it's A very interesting thing about this, Ronan, and I can't explain it any more than it's just me. And I don't know where it came from, but I didn't. I came back and I was broke. I had taken 72 pictures and I had many rolls of film. I had used three rolls of ectochrome, and only 54 of them had anyone famous in them. And I was broke. So I went to McLean's magazine. I knew the editor from my other work, and I sold them a piece which became a cover story. I needed money. I needed to rent a flat. Literally, I needed to rent a room. And I was broke. And they paid me to write an article. And what they wanted, of course, was the pictures. But what I also wanted to do, and I remember this very specifically, I know not only needed the money, I wanted to say to people, hey, there's this thing, meditation. It's magic. Because I had never heard of meditation before that experience. So I wrote the article, and when I finished writing it, when I finished writing it, I started to put the slides away, and I realized I was feeling bad. Like, oh, for some reason I was feeling bad, feeling deflated. I just finished writing it, submitted it, and I said to myself out loud, one of these magic moments, I said, why am I feeling bad? And I heard my soul talk to me for the third time in my life. And I do that to this day. If you want to ask yourself something and just be alone, ask yourself out loud and listen for the inner voice, Listen for the inner soul. And, you know, we all have the inner negative voice. You're a piece of. Oh, you screwed that up. We all know that voice, and it always lies. It always tells a lie. So if we want to know the truth, hear the negative voice and just say, oh, well, the truth has got to be the exact opposite, because the negative voice always lies. And you turn your attention to the positive voice. So I hear my positive voice, my soul talk to me for the third time. And I've said out loud, why do I feel bad? And it said these words, fascinating, said, you're talking about this too soon. You need to let it go deeper. Let it go deeper. And I put the slides away with the thought. I don't want to do anything more. With these, I thought, I remember. I don't want to do anything more. The Road, India, 1968. Put an elastic around the three little yellowish cases that slides come back from Kodak, and. And I forgot about them for 32 years. I literally forgot about them. I married An Indian woman later, I never told her I'd met the Beatles. My two best friends, one woman and one man. 32 years later, my wonderful daughter, Dave Yanni, says to me, didn't you tell me when I was little, you met the Beatles in India? And I said, yes. And she said, didn't you tell me you took some pictures of them? And I said, yes. And it was like, well, can I see them? Apparently, And I'd forgotten. I told her a bedtime story because her mother was from India. She had said, what? Tell me about your first time in India. And so I told her, and that was part of the story. So I find the pictures and I showed them to her. Luckily, they're still, like, fresh and new. And at the end of it, she says, they're really great, dad. You should do something with them. And I asked my soul, how does it feel doing something with them? And I asked myself, my inner self, three times in a week, and each time the answer was the same. Yeah, that might be fun. So I'm not sure I went sideways there to your question.

[B]

No, it's okay. That was great. The.

[A]

Oh, I know what you said. You said, did I keep looking for those experiences? No, for some reason. For some reason, as I learn more and more to live in tune with my heart, which is a learning, you know, because we're brought up in societies that often, often teach us not to hear our heart. You know, how many times do teachers, whether informal or formal teachers, say, just think, think? No, no, just feel. Just feel. Your thinking will take care of itself. Just feel. Be in the heart. So, no, I've never gone looking for those magical experiences. But if we're aware, if we're awake and if we're heartful, they'll come to us. They'll come to us like Woodstock just came. Magically, weird story. Magically, like other things, just. And life is still the struggle that it is for most people.

[B]

You know, I'm almost tempted to stop there, but my curiosity. Just because it's such a beautiful place to end the conversation, but because I.

[A]

You get to edit this.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[A]

You get to edit this. It can be the end.

[B]

Yeah. But let's talk about what. What was magical about Woodstock coming about? How did the magic happen there?

[A]

I've only read the Village Voice once in my life. Whatever reason I'm in. I'm in New York on work. I pick up a Village Voice. I open it to the. To what turns out to be the middle page. You know, sometimes it opens to the middle page. I'm pretty sure it was the middle page. And I'm looking at it. And down in the gutter, right, the fold called the Gutter. Down at the bottom on the left, right next to the gutter, there's this little ad. It's that big, an inch by 2 inches. And it says, Woodstock Music and Arts Festival. I forget Bethel, New York, and the date. That's it. Somehow I come back to Toronto and I say to three of my good friends, one couple and another man, I say, hey, there's this thing. Let's go to it. I don't usually do that. I'm not. I don't usually run around to music and art festivals for whatever reason. So we pack up the car and, and I'll give you the. Some details of this, but I'm going to try not to make it long. So we're driving in the car down, and two things are happening. First of all, we're smoking dope in the car, and I have a. I have a hash pipe that's, that's round and, and like a little flying saucer with a. With a screen in the middle. And we're smoking in the car and we know we better finish smoking everything before we hit the border. We could be in jail. So we're, we're. I've got long hair and, and, and I think the two other men had longish hair. And the woman. And they pull us over and they search the car and they question us. So I'm now in a room where, you know, they take you alone. I'm in a room with a border guard, American immigration border guard. And he says, what's this? And he holds up the pipe, the hash pipe. And I said, oh, that's a hash pipe. Whose is it? He says, I said, it's a friend of mine. He's going to Woodstock. We're meeting him there and. But he's flying. And he was afraid he wouldn't be able to fly if he was caught with the pipe. Ronan, I'm making the whole story up. I'm high, I'm in the flow. I'm telling this story. None of it is true. I'm not proud of that, but it was a good moment. And I said. He said, do you smoke? I said, I never touch this stuff. I'm scared of it. So they question all four of us. They let us through. I'm allowed to keep my hash pipe. And we drive down. And while the New York throughway, we learn later, the New York throughway has 10 and 12 hour delays because the cars going to Woodstock have jammed the whole freeway from New York, whatever, 100 miles north. We Canadians are driving in the back way, we drive in the back way. We pull up at the, at the driveway to Max Yasger's farm, park the car, walk in, there's the festival. We stay for two days. We get tired, there's a bit of rain and the music is, you know, wonderful but non stop. And we get tired and somebody says, I think I've had enough. And the rest of us say, yeah, we're ready to go home. We walk out the driveway, get in the car, drive home, no traffic. It was like magic. So, you know, it was just that kind of beauty. And of course, the festival was 11. It was 11. You know, it was a very remarkable thing, as they said, during. And later, you know, 500,000 people, whatever the number was, four or 500,000 people. And no one was fighting and no one was pushing to get in in front of you. Nothing that I saw, nothing that was written about. It was just three days of, as they said, music and fun.

[B]

Yeah. Did it feel like you were experiencing what would become a huge cultural icon or did it just feel like a music festival at the time?

[A]

Yeah, and the answer is it just felt like a music festival at the time. And it's interesting you say that because I was going to say and forgot. People have said to me, did you know it was a historic moment with the Beatles at the ashram? No, I'm just in the flow. You're not standing or. I wasn't pulling myself out of the experience there or at Woodstock to say, oh, this is a historic moment. I mean, writers and journalists and people who are thinking that way, in that moment can stand back perhaps and say those things. Me, I was just there to be enjoy in both situations. I was there to. To grow, to grow, to heal. In terms of the ashram, to be enjoy at Woodstock. I wasn't there to analyze. So I never thought about it. I was going to say to you when I found the pictures 32 years later when Daviani reminded me and I found the pictures and I did a book deal with Viking imprint of Penguin Putnam in New York to do my first book of Beatles pictures and my best two friends, I decided I wanted to go back to the ashram I'd never been in 32 years and I wanted to have memories stirred and feel it again. And I said to my best two friends, one man and one woman, I'm going to India. Oh, how come you're going to India? I'm going to write a book. What are you writing a book about? I'm writing a book about the Beatles in India. Why are you writing a book about the Beatles in India? I spent a week with them there in 1968. You never told us that. And you know what I said, Ronan? I said, didn't I? You know, it was just that soul. The soul said, you have to let it go deeper. You're talking about it too soon. And I took that literally for 32 years.

[B]

That's amazing. I think that's a perfect place to rap ball. That was great. And lots of good stuff to pull together.

[A]

So thank you. What a joy to talk to you about it.

[B]

I love hearing these stories. They're. They. And there's part of my soul that lived in the 60s. I don't know how to explain it, but they've always just captured my attention. And I've had the privilege of witnessing, both directly from your voice as well as through your work, the experience of that time. And so I'm grateful for that.

[A]

Oh, well, thank you. You know, it's. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure and my honor, and I mean that sincerely. And how I mean, that is one. It's a joy talking to you. You're thoughtful, you're heartful. What a pleasure. Best kind of way to meet with others with heart and. And soul and joy. And also, it's an honor because these things happen to me, but if they can be of any positive influence with others, that's great. And that's the storyteller in me. That's the filmmaker in me, for whatever reason. And that's why. And you know this because you do podcasts and because you're a filmmaker yourself, and because you are on a conscious path yourself, is, we're here to help each other. We're really not here to be killing each other. We're really not here to be. You know, one of the wise people I've worked with once said to me, said, you know, God, goddess, never meant it to be this difficult. That's human beings. Yeah. You know, and in Christianity, the concept of free will, you know, we have free will. So. So I'm most. I'm most grateful to you because you've given me an opportunity to be in joy as we and I are talking, to connect your heart and my heart and if we can share that with others, which is why you do what you do in the sense of communications and the public. And I do we make the world a bit of a better place in our own small, Small, tiny way. Tiny way. But. But it's still positive. Yeah.

[B]

One step at a time.