The World Walk: 7 Years, 28,000 Miles, and 6 Continents On Foot w/ Tom Turcich

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ronan Levy Podcast
Episode: The World Walk: 7 Years, 28,000 Miles, and 6 Continents On Foot w/ Tom Turcich
Release Date: October 8, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Ronan Levy Podcast, host Ronan Levy engages in a profound conversation with Tom Turcich, the 10th person ever to walk around the Earth. Tom shares his extraordinary journey, chronicled in his recently published book, The World Walk: Seven Years, 28,000 Miles, Six Continents, and a Grand Meditation. One Step at a Time. This in-depth discussion delves into themes of struggle, purpose, personal growth, and the societal contrasts observed during Tom's monumental trek.

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Tom Turcich’s World Walk Journey

Starting the Journey (00:36 - 04:30)
Tom recounts the inception of his ambitious plan to walk around the globe, inspired by his discovery of Carl Bushby and Steve Newman’s feats. At 25, after the passing of a friend and recognizing his own life's direction, Tom made the life-altering decision to embark on his walk the day before his 26th birthday. Over seven years, he traversed 28,000 miles across six continents, living minimally with essentials like water, food, a sleeping bag, and a tent.

“I don’t think I will be happier ever than when I was walking around the world with Savannah and I lived out of a baby carriage. I had nothing.”
— Tom Turcich [00:00]

Cultural Reflections and Personal Growth (05:21 - 18:38)
Tom reflects on revisiting his Croatian roots, highlighting the profound realization of his family's deep historical ties compared to the American melting pot's relative detachment from ancestral lineage. This exploration fostered a deeper understanding of his identity and the privileges he had taken for granted.

He emphasizes the transformative power of solitude experienced during his walk, likening it to a form of meditation and therapy. This extended solitude forced him to confront unresolved traumas and personal reflections, leading to significant self-discovery and growth.

“Traveling solo is the most enjoyable way to travel because then you really feel like you’re discovering something constantly, either about yourself or about the world.”
— Tom Turcich [09:48]

Resilience and Purpose Post-Walk (22:28 - 35:24)
Post-completion of his walk, Tom discusses the unexpected challenges of finding purpose once a defining journey concludes. Initially feeling adrift, he gradually found contentment in stability and personal relationships. Tom underscores the importance of having a driving purpose, echoing Ronan’s sentiments about redefining success beyond traditional metrics like money and fame.

“The only way for that to be sustainable is if it's really valuable for you.”
— Tom Turcich [26:57]

Societal Observations and Personal Insights (37:42 - 56:05)
Tom offers critical insights into American societal issues, particularly the aggressive protection of private property and the pervasive gun culture contributing to frequent and severe police encounters. Comparatively, he praises countries like Denmark for their bike-friendly infrastructures and community-oriented living, highlighting how the absence of car dependency fosters a more enjoyable and less stressful urban experience.

“America is as beautiful as anywhere in the world, and the American west is insanely beautiful. But then you see it all fenced in, every inch of it.”
— Tom Turcich [73:10]

Social Media and Modern Distractions (62:24 - 76:43)
Addressing the impact of social media, Tom expresses mixed feelings. While recognizing its role in documenting his journey and building a supportive community, he criticizes its evolution into a platform inundated with superficial content that detracts from genuine human connection and personal well-being.

“If I could delete [social media], I would delete it in a second today.”
— Tom Turcich [74:14]

Future Aspirations and Lessons Learned (77:00 - End)
Looking ahead, Tom shares his desire to settle in Denmark, valuing its quality of life, healthcare, and community-oriented living. He emphasizes the universal goodness of people worldwide, challenging preconceived notions and stereotypes. Tom advocates for embracing discomfort as a path to growth, aligning with Ronan’s philosophy of balancing peak experiences with everyday moments.

“I think it's the same thing where you just have to go out there and experience it for yourself.”
— Tom Turcich [61:00]

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Notable Quotes

1. “The things mean nothing ultimately... it's really just about the purpose. Do you have something that's driving you forward?”
   — Tom Turcich [00:00]

2. “I have to face them. I have to face them. And in the beginning, as it can be more, your...”
   — Tom Turcich [11:30]

3. “What we lack also is this ability to embrace our humanity where we expect so much from ourselves...”
   — Tom Turcich [28:09]

4. “You are just human. That's it.”
   — Tom Turcich [22:28]

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Conclusions and Takeaways

Tom Turcich’s journey offers invaluable lessons on the true essence of happiness, the importance of purpose, and the profound impact of solitude on personal growth. His reflections challenge societal norms regarding success and highlight the disparities between American and global cultures. The conversation underscores the significance of embracing one’s humanity, fostering resilience, and maintaining meaningful connections in an increasingly distracted world.

Listeners are encouraged to reconsider their definitions of success and happiness, drawing inspiration from Tom’s transformative experience to seek deeper meaning and fulfillment in their own lives.

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a poignant reminder that true happiness and peace stem from purpose and meaningful connections rather than conventional markers of success. Tom Turcich’s extraordinary journey not only chronicles a physical trek around the world but also an inward exploration of self, challenging listeners to redefine what it means to lead a fulfilling life.

Transcript

[Tom Tersich]

I don't think I will be happier ever than when I was walking around the world with Savannah and I lived out of a baby carriage. I had nothing. You know, I had water, food, sleeping bag, tent. And now I have more things. But the things mean nothing ultimately, you know, like, all right, you have a desk. Oh, man, it would be really nice to have a nicer desk. And then you get the nicer desk and you realize this doesn't mean shit to you. This doesn't mean anything. And it just happens over and over and over again, and it's really just about the purpose. Do you have something that's driving you forward?

[Ronan]

Hey, everybody. Ronan here. The conversation you're about to listen to is with Tom Tich. Tom is only the 10th person ever to walk around the Earth, a journey he embarked on on April 2, 2015, and only finished last year. Talk about a journey of a thousand miles. Tom recently published a book about his journey called the World Walk. Seven years, 28,000 miles, six continents, and a Grand Meditation. One Step at a Time. And he joined me here to talk about this experience. There are many things I love about this conversation, especially because it brings up so many themes that I love to nerd out on, like struggle, purpose, and the unexpected challenges of actually achieving your dreams. But also because it's a good reminder that, as Tom shares, the world is still a wonderful and weird place. And. And we shouldn't forget that for all that the media and politicians and social media may tell us otherwise. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. And if you do, be sure to pick up his book at any of your favorite book retailers, except Amazon. They make too much money already. Enjoy.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, so I had an interview yesterday for the first time with someone who read the book, and it was throwing me off because the questions were so deep and cutting, and I didn't really know what to think about it. So I'm honored that. That you read it.

[Ronan]

The whole thing. Yeah, it's a. It's a surprisingly sad condemnation of media these days when most questions are just taken from, like, the little PR blurb that. That your PR folks sent out, as opposed to actually reading and thinking about what's in the. What's in the book. But so we will have covered this off. I'll record an intro to the podcast after the fact so people will have a sense of who you are and what you've done getting into it. But can you please what cockamamie idea you had come up with and that, to your credit, you followed through on. So everyone knows exactly what we're talking about.

[Tom Tersich]

Sure. So my name is Tom tersich. I'm the 10th person to walk around the world. When I was 17, my friend passed and I discovered these two guys who walked around the world, Carl Bushby and Steve Newman. And as a way to get the most out of life, that seemed like the best way to do it. And so I resolved to walk around the world. And it took me eight or nine years until I was able to begin and then another seven years to do it. But. So I was a professional walker. Walker for seven years, you could say.

[Ronan]

You know, on my first date with my wife, I do a very good job of faking power walking. You know, like the hip shaking, power walk thing that used to be an Olympic sport. I do it very, very well. I'm not a power walker, but I can. I can make it look good. That's for sure. Or embarrassing, one of the two. But she married me anyway, so. So there you go. Okay, so how old were you when you started and how old were you with when you finished? Because you finished a couple years ago. And now we're talking about the book, the World Walk that will be dropping, I guess, next week, and we'll. We'll drop this episode to coincide with that. So.

[Tom Tersich]

Cool.

[Ronan]

When did you start? When did you finish? How old were you when you started? How old were you when you finished?

[Tom Tersich]

I started when I was 26. It was actually the day before I turned 26. I decided I wanted to leave before I turned 26. I quit my job the year before installing solar panels the day before I turned 25, because I don't want to be doing this after I turned 25, beating up my body. And it was just kind of reached its end. So then I said, okay, in one year, I'm going to leave. And so I left the day before I turned 26 on April 2nd. And then I was out there for a little over seven years, and I was 33 when I finished. So it was. Yeah, it was a little over seven years of walking out there.

[Ronan]

It's a lot of walking, total. Sidebar question For a second. You pronounce your last name Tersich, but you talk about how you went back to Croatia. And it only comes up because one of the previous guests, who actually, I guess, as you'd probably get along with pretty well, his name is Mike Ber. He's from Croatia. And he always talks about his last name just being like, Bursic, because that's what people pronounce it. But the correct Croatian pronunciation is ber. Is Teric your last name? Or is it supposed to be Turich or Turchic or something along that line?

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, it's like turchic. I'm sure even I butcher it. I had my relatives tell me a bunch of times. But mine, with the H and the removal of the accents, is Americanized when it came over Turkish. But, yeah, it's like something along those lines. But again, I'm definitely butchering that.

[Ronan]

That's all right.

[Tom Tersich]

It's close enough where. When you go. When I went back, you know, to Croatia, and then there's a little village of our name where maybe five people or five families live, and there's a road sign with our name on it. It's close enough still where it's really jarring and kind of magical. Be like, holy cow. Like we exist outside of ourselves in some other timeline.

[Ronan]

Excuse me. Yeah, I can. I can appreciate how profound and probably discombobulating that can be, because we're all always so up in our own heads in these worlds, and it's easy to forget that there's other people out there and, you know, a history and a story that preceded us that we never get to see. We kind of sometimes hear from the periphery, from our parents or our grandparents, but, you know, unlimited scope. So when you get to witness that firsthand, that sounds like a pretty cool experience.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I think as. As Americans, too, you're kind of unmoored from your family history a little bit. You know, such a melting pot. And basically everyone's an immigrant. So you're going back a few generations here, but not that far. And I would meet people I remember in. In Valencia, I stayed at a friend's Caseta there for a little bit while getting my Algerian visa. And for him, it was just, like, unthinkable to ever move out of Valencia because they'd been there for, who knows, 30 generations or longer. And his dad did the same thing he's doing, and then his dad did the same thing as that. And so it's just, like, such a deep bloodline. And, yeah, in America, you're kind of detached from that a little bit, so it's cool to go back and see, you know, trace your history a little bit.

[Ronan]

Yeah, for sure. So, like I said before, good for me. I managed to read your whole book in under a week because I refused to try and read it on the PDF on my phone. And I was way too lazy to print whatever, 280, 300 pages upon finishing it, which I finished it last night, my first thought was, I didn't expect this to be a true romance novel. When you started the walk, did you have any idea that was the way the book would end or even the walk would end?

[Tom Tersich]

No, no, not at all. You know, and I think that's like, one layer to the book for sure. And hopefully the book has a lot of layers to it. But, yeah, I mean, it worked out that way, where by the end of being on my own for seven years and, you know, having my dog Savannah with me, but just being out in the elements and kind of always on the defensive in these new places with new people and new cultures, it really wears on you after a while. And it's a fantastic life, and it's beautiful, but after six years of it, I was just so ready to live some sort of life of comfort with someone that I cared about and that cared about me. And so I got to that point really gradually and organically. And then when I landed back stateside, I was really ready for it. I was like, the ends in sight. And I just happened to meet Bonnie, who I'm living with, and, you know, moved to Kentucky with, and so she could do her emergency medicine residency. I met her in Washington state, like, towards the end, and we just hit it off, and it was this very natural fit. So it was also just really good fortunate timing as well.

[Ronan]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to put you a quote from my favorite author, Tom Robbins, just to see how it kind of resonates. Is this the one I wanted? Hold on. This is good. I'm going to read two. We got editing. All right, so there's one that says, when the mystery of the connection goes, love goes. It's that simple. This suggests that it isn't love that is so important to us, but the mystery itself. The love connection may be merely a device to put us in contact with a mystery. Actually, this is not the quote. I'm going to read the other quote. I'm going to come back to that one, because that quote is so good. It's one of my favorites. All right. It says, funny how we think of romance as always involving two. When the romance of solitude can be ever so much more delicious and intense. Alone, the world offers itself freely to us. To be unmasked, it has no choice.

[Tom Tersich]

I love that.

[Ronan]

Spending seven years mostly by yourself. How does that sit with you? And. And what did you learn about yourself along the way?

[Tom Tersich]

I mean, I. I agree with that. I think traveling solo is the most enjoyable way to Travel, because then you really feel like you're discovering something constantly, either about yourself or about the world. And you don't have that same comfort that you can lean on when you're in a group or with your. When you're with someone else. And so every time you step out the door, it's you and you interacting with the world. So there's. You get this constant growth happening. And for me, when I was walking and a lot of the time I was just on my own, you know, there I would go through towns and villages and I would have these interactions. But the rest of the time it was. It was very solitary, like you said, and it provided incredible moments of peace where, you know, taking a nap midday under a tree or sitting out in the desert or wherever in the forest with savannah at the end of the day and kind of just taking it all in. And the solitude just gives you a certain amount of space that you don't have otherwise to kind of like expand in a certain way or breathe a little, a little wider. Whereas when you're with someone else, you're. That's where your thoughts are going. Okay, there's, you know, how do I interact with them? What do we talk about? And when you're on your own, thoughts can just come and go a little more freely. And for me, for. It's part of the walking. This is part walking. This is part solitude. But when you're spending all that time with yourself and all these thoughts are coming and going, it's in some ways like a meditation or it's like therapy. And you have nowhere to hide from your thoughts. And so they come one after the other, whether you want them to or not, and you have to confront them. You have to face them. And in the beginning, as it can be more, your. Your thoughts go first to the big unresolved traumas in your life. If you. If you had any traumas. I didn't have anything serious. You know, I had some past relationship that I ended and I thought I had resolved that, but I didn't at all. And those first four months of walking, all that came rushing back and I had to, you know, think it through and come to peace with it and comes to terms with it. And then as the walking and the solitude goes on, the thoughts get finer and finer and finer, and you work through all those things. But the solitude, yeah, the solitude provides the. The space to be able to do that, which normally you don't get in daily life, I would say, and especially not today, where there's so Many distractions, and there's so many things to, you know, occupy yourself. So it's not even just solitude that you need, because you can have solitude in, in your living room, but you're on Instagram or you're on Reddit and, you know, covering up all your thoughts. So it's solitude, but then also a certain level of, like, removal from the technology and from, like, these dopamine hits that you're. That we're so accustomed to getting anymore.

[Ronan]

Yeah, I have a really good question, but just before we do it, Chris, is. Is Tom's lighting a little too dark? Can you turn on the light or something? Is it okay? It's.

[Chris]

It's dramatic, but I actually like it because some heavy shadows and dark background, but yeah, no, the face is coming through.

[Ronan]

Good. Okay.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah. So usually this is so bright here, but it's really cloudy today, and usually I have to bring down the blinds because I'm just getting blasted with the sun. So this is this weird. Yeah, very. You can turn on. You can turn on light behind me if you want it a little brighter behind now.

[Ronan]

If Chris is good, I'm good. All right. All right. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I'm. I'm sure you learned about resilience and your capacity for resilience and fortitude, but what did you learn about Tom Sercic or Turchic or, you know, what did you really learn about yourself?

[Tom Tersich]

I think primarily that I've just been really blessed in life is the main thing. You know, when. When you go abroad the first time, you don't have a gauge of what other societies are like, what other people were raised in, the wealth that they, that they had and, you know, the type of families that they were born into. And, you know, so when I, When I entered Mexico and I'm walking through Central America and these places that I was just kind of learning about as I'm going through them and figuring out, okay, what's the day to day life here like? And so first to see that, to see, oh, man, like, I was born in insane wealth, basically, you know, and I was probably middle class, probably a little bit above middle class in New Jersey, which is, you know, had a great education system in the suburbs two blocks from a river. Nothing bad ever happened to me. You know, there was never, never heard a gunshot, never saw anyone, you know, anything violent happened to anyone. I'd walk to school and so then to go out into the world and kind of see my own history in contrast to some other places, not to say that other places, you know, one place is necessarily worse than the other, because I think everywhere you go, it's just people living there and they're doing just fine for the most part. But to see the wealth I grew up in compared to a lot of other places was. Was one thing. Oh, man. Wow. I was incredibly fortunate to be giving all these. These opportunities. And then also the same thing with my family, where it's like, I grew up with this great family that supported me and, you know, gave me this confidence to. To. To leave on this world walk. And so I think that, yeah, the first thing I learned about myself was just, man, I was given a really good foundation. And I think also that's something that's really easy to take for granted if you never get outside of it, because you get caught up in maybe these small resentments that build up over the years and that you just latch onto. And, you know, your other friends say, well, oh, my parents don't do that, or, you know, whatever it is. But, yeah, I think when you travel and then you start meeting all these different people, it. It gives you a better sense of scale, and it gives you more things to compare your own life to. And then also you just realize every family has stuff, every person has stuff, every, you know, town has its thing. Everything's going to mess you up in some way. But it's, how badly did you get messed up and how quickly and well can you resolve how you got messed up or come to peace with how you got messed up? So I would say that is the first thing. And then also from the walking, you know, you're turning over your thoughts all the time, and you're turning over your history, and you're turning over maybe the mistakes you made and the choices you made. And for me, I really thought about how I became who I was, and I just saw so clearly gradually how much I was just like my dad and just like my mom. Like, it was inescapable, you know, and that's so true. But then when you're out walking, you really see it and you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, I think exactly like, my dad had these mannerisms that are exactly like him. But then I also have this kind of, like, cutting this just like my mom and this criticalness of her, you know, her being an artist. I have that same kind of eye and, you know, that perfectionism in. Within art in that same way, and the recklessness of my dad. So, yeah, you see all these influences, so. And again, that's just like putting yourself in the context of the world. And, you know, it's easy, like I said earlier, to kind of get caught up in your own individual perspective and just think you exist only onto yourself and that's it. But really, you are this confluence of so many different things, and that is really, like, liberating in a certain way because a lot of things are out of your control. And then also you realize everyone's like that, and everyone is just like a convergence of, you know, a hundred rivers, and they're just sitting in the middle of it. So, yeah, you learn, you know, what the tributaries are that are feeding into you, basically.

[Ronan]

Right. Yeah. I kind of still want to pull on that thread a little bit because it is really interesting that, you know, you started by answering about, you know, who you are by answering about your circumstances. Right. Which is like, I was born into privilege and, you know, you're a white man in the U.S. yeah, yeah, of course. And. And you started to get more. A little bit honest about who you are and what it taught you about yourself by, you know, making reference to those things that come from your dad and from your mom. But is there. Is there more there to explore? You know, it's one of the things I feel like every time I. I go deep into philosophy and, like, what the hell are we doing here and why? You know, existence, period, As a maybe existence question mark, you know, it all comes back to, like, we're here to experience it and learn something about who we are and the things that we need to heal. And I'm just wondering if there's anything in that vein that came up for you that, like, you're carrying the things, you know, of your mom, of your dad, you know, and maybe those are the things that you don't want to carry.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's. I didn't have any. Like I said, I didn't have any serious trauma that needed resolving. And. And I also, I think kind of when you're walking, you have to be good company to yourself. And so you just, like, kind of prune your thoughts a little bit to clip them where, you know, you become pleasant company, basically. And you also realize that not every thought is valuable. When you're out there walking, these thoughts will come and go. And you have these thoughts and beat yourself up over some mistake you made or whatever, and you go like, this is not useful. You don't have to think that thought. And sometimes you have these thoughts and they're just not true. And when you have the space to hear them, you realize they're not true rather than letting them latch onto you. And so yeah, I got good at just being like, no, that's not a useful thought. I'm going to get rid of that one. And I don't need to, I don't need to hear that one. But I will say like in like the larger. Maybe diving into like my psychology, I would say I think there was a part of me that always believed somehow that I could become something more in the sense of almost like transcending my humanity and that, you know, I think this, this is like a very common thing that you go out there and that you like level up beyond, like you evolve like a Pokemon or something, that you become something beyond yourself. And for a while, you know, you're. During my walk, I was in pursuit of that. Whether it was consciously acknowledged or like overtly acknowledged or not. But maybe like five years in, I think it was like in Turkey. And I had walked for so long at that point and I'd seen so much and I'd spent so much time with myself and the day to day just kind of became a little bit more mundane and that I realized, oh, like I did this thing that I have been dreaming about forever and I thought maybe would transcend me and I was still just like the same person. And you're still just a person. And there is no escape from yourself in a certain way or from your humanity is a better way to say it. There's no escape from your humanity and you're still going to have your wants and desires and you're still going to be tired sometimes and you're going to be hungry and you're going to die and that's that.

[Ronan]

Thank you. That's a beautiful answer. You know, it's kind of a twist on it, but I think it touches on the same thread, which is, I'll use myself as an example. So like my last company was a company called Field Trip, right? And you can see over my shoulder I've got like the tombstones. Where's my hand? Right there. You know, from all the money we raised and we listed on the nasdaq. And we're a psychedelic company, right? Like we took psychedelics from the fringe and made it mainstream. We're on the COVID of the New York Times. Like I was the first person ever on CNBC talking about psychedelics and wow, you know, it felt like we were doing something massive, right? Like earth shatteringly big shift. And ultimately, you know, the company didn't work Out. Some things worked, some things didn't, some parts sold, some parts we had to shut down. And one of the things I've struggled with since is, you know, finding that sense of impact, you know, being like, was that my shot? You know, was that the thing that I may or may not be known for, but it doesn't get as good as that one, you know, at least as it comes to, I guess, professional pursuits maybe, you know, parenthood and all that kind of stuff has. Has different impact and effect and all that kind of stuff. And do you ever struggle with, like, wow, I did something huge, and I don't know how I'm going to follow that partially.

[Tom Tersich]

I definitely understand 100% exactly, like, what you went through, though. I totally get that. But I think at this point, I mean, maybe it'll come in a few years or something, but I think at this point, I'm just very content to be in one place doing nothing. And if I can make enough money to, like, get by and play pickleball every day and hang out with my friends, I'll be. I'll be pretty happy. And. But, you know, it's like that balance of ego of your. And also it's like a cultural thing probably as, like, Americans, too, I think we have really had that individualism that you got to, like, impact the world driven into us and that American exceptionalism driven into us. And so there's a part of me definitely, that still has that. And. But there's another part of me that is like, it doesn't matter. You know, the Marcus Aurelius meditation stoicism version, where it's like, you're going to be forgotten, and then everyone who remembered you is going to be forgotten, and you're just back into the ether and, you know, it's all gone. So you just basically are out to enjoy yourself and, you know, create some happiness. And that's about the extent of your impact that you can ultimately have. But then you got to do something to keep yourself occupied, and then that's when the ego gets in there and you're going to go, oh, man, what could I. What can I create? When I. When the walk finished, like, three months after the walk finished, I had this thought that it keeps going. And what I meant. What that meant was, like, life keeps going. My purpose in life, this thing that had defined me for 16 years, was gone. It was complete. And I thought, you can just keep living without this insanely direct pursuit. How are you supposed to go on after that? And I was really unmoored for sure. Six months after that and just totally adrift and purposeless. And my days did not feel full at all. And I've adapted since then and I've adjusted since then, but it's also really nice to have something to kind of order your days around. And maybe it won't have the same impact as being this revolutionary psychedelic company on the front of New York Times and whatever else, but I think just like fundamentally as a human satisfaction action, you know, having order to your days is almost as satisfying as, you know, this, you know, transformative idea that you have as well. You know, just if you can get through each day with a little purpose, I think that's pretty satisfying.

[Ronan]

Yeah. George Burns. You know, secret to longevity is always having a reason to get up in the morning. But no, you totally hit on it. You know, I didn't really understand the expression be careful for what you wish for, because you just might get it. Until, you know, we sold our first business, myself and my co founders. And then all of a sudden you're like, so much of all the problems that you think are going to go away when you just hit that milestone, you know, all of a sudden they're still there. They haven't gone away. Maybe you have fancier toys, you know, maybe you have a better looking cv, but at the end of the day, all those things that were with you before still there, everywhere you go, there you are. And now you don't, now you don't have that thing, that shiny object of, oh, if I just complete the walk, if I just make this business work, if I just do that, then all my problems will go away. And so all of a sudden you got your problems and no distraction and no prospective solution. And it's, it's, it's harder, you know, again, going back to Mike Ber, going back to the Croatian last name guy, you know, he went through that as well. Of like, you get there and you're just like, oh my God, here I still am and I have no idea what to do. And so, I mean, I don't think.

[Tom Tersich]

I will be happier ever than when I was walking around the world with Savannah and I lived out of a baby carriage. I had nothing. You know, I had water, food, sleeping bag, tent. And now I have more things. But the things mean nothing ultimately, you know, like, all right, you have a desk. Oh man, it would be really nice to have a nicer desk. And then you get the nicer desk and you realize this doesn't mean shit to you. This doesn't mean Anything. And it just happens over and over and over again. And it's really just about the purpose. Do you have something that's driving you forward? And then also, I think, like, what we lack also is this ability to embrace our humanity where we expect so much from ourselves and to be these, like, automatons of efficiency and to always be producing and to just pushing forward a little better every day, but then totally neglecting that you're a dumb animal. Sunshine feels good. It makes you happier. Hanging out with your friends feels good. It makes you happier. Hanging out with your family feels good.

[Ronan]

Do those things sometimes. Sometimes.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, sometimes. But exercise. Exercise is important. It feels good. You should do that. And we just, like, so often those things become secondary in whatever the pursuit is of more. Instead of kind of just accepting that, you know, you're just like. I don't know what the meme is, but you're like a. Like a smart house plant, basically.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're on point. It's interesting, too, because what I've noticed is, like, the flip, which is like, we all know that exercise and hanging out with friends and all that kind of stuff is good for us. And in. I don't know, I'm going to say this. This Western worldview, we've now, like, started to diarize it, right? Like, instead of, like, just enjoying it for the sake of what it is, I now have to prioritize it, because that's how I optimize myself. And if I'm not optimizing myself, what the fuck am I doing with my life? And it's just like, it's. It's. It's, you know, habit culture has gone off the fucking rails of all the habits that we have to do when the whole idea of the habits was to actually just get you to connect to yourself, and you've connected to yourself, and now you've actually outsourced all of this to that book, to that practice, to that whoever.

[Tom Tersich]

It's really. I think it's really structural in a lot of the us, too. Like, infrastructural. Even where we get boxed off in our. In our house, and especially in. In places where you have to drive everywhere, which is a lot of the us.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

Everything becomes this, like, conscious decision. Nothing happens organically. Okay, I'm going to go to the gym because I'm going to work out, and then I check that box, and then I'm going to go to the restaurant and hang out my friends, and I check that box, and then I can go Back here and I'm going to meditate for 30 minutes and I check that box. So everything becomes this isolated thing rather than life and this enjoyment happening naturally. And whenever I'm back in Philly, like, I. I go, I'm from Philly, but I go back to Philly and I try and think, okay, don't be biased about this place. Like, just, do you actually like the city? Or you just, you know, you like it because you grew up here and you have people here. And then I go back there and I hang out with my friend and we go from bar to bar to bar to bar to bar and restaurants and we just bebop around and we see other people and go, oh, no, the city's great because just you can just live kind of in this more organic, more community oriented way versus, again, being boxed off. And so I think that the structural stuff really hurts us as well. And that gave. Gives rise to that habit culture like you're talking about, where you got to optimize it and you have to, you know, you got to be kind to yourself, but you also got to exercise, you got to push yourself a little bit. And it's just like, it's impossible. There's no way you can do everything in one day.

[Ronan]

100%. 100%. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate those insights. All right, next question. Is this the book you wanted to write? And let me explain that question. Yeah, you know, throughout it, as I was reading it, you layered in the occasional nugget of profound wisdom, but very often just as quickly kind of dropped it into the narrative and then moved on back to the storytelling of what happened the next day or the next country. My gut says you wanted to drop into Philosopher Tom a little bit more and expand on some of those ideas, but you didn't. Is my read of that correct? And other than blaming your editor, why didn't you kind of go a little bit more into Philosopher Tom in the book?

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I think it actually is the book that I wanted to write because I would have written it differently years before, but I learned from photography and particular where when. So when I first started walking, I carried a camera because I'm just going to share the journey. And, you know, as the years went on, you know, a year or two in, I was taking photographs and every once in a while, like a good photograph would kind of pop into my camera. I go, oh, whoa, that's crazy. I took that photo and then kind of this interest was piqued. And so then I started really Trying to get better at photography. And one of the first things you realize is that it's like a medium, it's an art. You know, you. It's not a one to one. Sometimes you see things that are really beautiful and they just. You cannot translate that into the camera, into a photograph. And so you learn like the limitations of this medium and this art form. And I think writing is the same way where I've been writing since right out of college, really. So I guess I was 22 or so. And with the book, with the memoir, the first thing I wanted to do was just always keep the reader in mind. And I just wanted it to be entertaining for them. I didn't want to get my ego wrapped up in it and also know that this is a massive story and you just can't say everything. There was every chapter and I cut a ton of chapters, but every chapter there's details I would love. I was like, oh man, I would love to put that in there. Oh, this would be so cool. I love this. Well, it's not serving the reader and so you try and cut it out. And there's the same thing with the philosophy aspect of it where, yeah, it would be nice to dive in and go on some soliloquy for two pages about something. But that's not the point of the book. The point of the book is to tell an interesting, engaging story, and particularly an adventure story. And so that's what the focus was. And again, even then it's like there's just. There's too much to say that I just knew it was going to be impossible. There's no way I could have said everything I wanted to say in. In one book. So, okay, just tell a story. Tell this story as best you can and in as an engaging manner as possible.

[Ronan]

Two questions. First one is what. What do you want the reader to get out of the book? I mean, you're trying to serve the reader, as you said. So what is serving them mean?

[Tom Tersich]

I want them to enjoy it. That's it. I just want them to enjoy sitting down with it for a week or for five days or two days, whatever it is, and just go, that was. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed my time with Tom and Savannah out in the world.

[Ronan]

So.

[Tom Tersich]

And. And if they get some. If they get some wisdom out of it, if they get some insight out of it, that's great. I also want it to really. I did my best to try and not hit the reader over the head with the lessons. I didn't want to feel like I was holding them by the hand and walking them through everything. I wanted it to come through action and through the stories and for them to come to maybe the same conclusions that I came to, but I wanted them to just kind of have my experiences and then come to whatever conclusions those experiences bring them. So kind of treat them intelligently and that they are smart and really not try and. Yeah. Batter them over the head with. Well, here's what I learned from this.

[Ronan]

You overestimate the general public. So, yeah, so it's interesting because, like, again, I'm going to go back to the other Tom Robbins quotes. I knew I would come back because one of the things I've always loved about Tom Robbins books is how he drops the philosophy right in there and he doesn't hit you over the head with it, but you walk away from the story being like, I get it now. So I want to read this other quote for you, just for your entertainment, and maybe we'll turn you into a Tom Robbins listener. So this actually comes close to the other quote I read from for you. It says, when the mystery of the connection goes, love goes. It's that simple. This suggests that it isn't love that is so important to us, but the mystery itself. The love connection may be merely a device to put us in contact with the mystery. And we long for love to last, so the ecstasy of being near the mystery will last. It is contrary to the nature of mystery to stand still. Yet it's always there somewhere. A world on the other side of the mirror or the camel pack, a promise in the next pair of eyes that smile at us. We glimpse it when we stand still. The romance of new love, the romance of solitude, the romance of objecthood, the romance of ancient pyramids and distant stars are means of making contact with the mystery. When it comes to perpetuating it, however, I got no advice. But I can and I will remind you of the two most important facts I know. Everything is a part of it, and it's never too late to have a happy childhood. And I just. And every time he drops those in, I'm like, now I understand why I'm reading the story, but that's a total sidebar.

[Tom Tersich]

That's so man. Yeah, yeah. It's getting close to the mystery. That's all over and over again.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah. You kind of go into the dance and then as soon as you think you actually just started reading my son a book on. On the Dao, which is all about this, which is like, from nothingness, something. And the only way something can exist is in contrast to nothingness. You know, beauty can only exist in contrast to ugliness. Without one there isn't the other. And just like that, weaving between the two is what I think keeps life interesting. So yes, you walked for seven some odd years and you managed to distill, get into a 200 and 300 page, 280, 300 page book. What are one or two things that you wanted in the book that don't appear in the book?

[Tom Tersich]

I'd say one thing is definitely my buddy Shane that I met in Guatemala. He was biking down to Ushuaia from Alaska and I met him and we were both like sick with food poisoning and like he was against one tree and I unknowingly sat against this other tree and like I looked over and he's over there with stomach pains and I'm stomach pains. And then we hung out and then he went off to Fuego, which is mountain in Guatemala, volcano in Guatemala. And. And then I was walking this road and he came by a few days later and we had, you know, shared some Coca Cola and then got dinner and like hung out for the night. And then I met him again in Peru, he was there and so he was like kind of, he was this guy I talked with during the walk and who was kind of going through the same things I was going through and, and that it was really nice to share this like connection where oh, he's thinking when he goes into a country. He's thinking about the same things I'm thinking about. How easy is to get good food, how easy is it to camp. You know, what are the people like, how densely populated is it these things that actually matter when you're just trying to sleep somewhere every night and navigating these cultures. So I had a few chapters but like kind of tying him in that would have been nice, but it just didn't really fit. And also there's this weird little. This is like back to a little detail that I would have loved to add in the book. And I had it in his chapter but it just, you could, I couldn't add it anywhere else. And so when I was in Guatemala, the tiendas that I would reach these little stores when you're out, out of, when you're out in the country kind of thing. They were really sparsely stocked and it was like so malnourished all the way through Guatemala because you have Doritos and you have Coca Cola and some other chips and it's like that's it. That's all you're getting in this tiendas.

[Ronan]

That's like the perfect American diet. What are you talking about?

[Tom Tersich]

I know I should have been thriving on it. And so when I get to these shops, I'd ask for agua, which is water, obviously, and they'd give me a Coca Cola. And this happened like three times where I'm going, what is happening right now? And like, okay, all right, well, I guess I'm drinking Coca Cola. And then eventually I got to a shop and on the side it said, like, agua equals Coca Cola. Agua porta is water. And so in all of. Not all of Central America, not in Costa Rica and probably not in Nicaragua, but in a lot of Central America, there's just not potable water, easily accessible. And so people be walking home, walking around with the big jugs of water. But everywhere in Guatemala, everyone was walking with Coca Cola or Sprite or some. Or Fanta, some Coca Cola product back home because they didn't have clean water at home. And Coca Cola was literally the same price as water and it tasted better. So why would you not drink Coca Cola? And so the word for water just became, you know, Coca Cola, or, you know, vice versa. And so I like, that's like this little detail that I thought so interesting. I would have loved to have had that in the book, but it didn't fit anywhere. And when I was walking also, I would journal. And every night I. I knew I was going to write a book at some point. And so every night I would write down one detail, like, what is one strange little detail about this place that I can include later on? And there's just so many of them that I, you know, again, I would have loved to. To put in there and just doesn't fit. So they're in there. There's a bunch interspersed in there, but very lightly and, you know, sprinkled in. But there's a lot more. He would add it.

[Ronan]

Gotcha. It's funny because I was going to ask, how did you remember all of this? You must have been journaling because, like, if I remember to put on pants on a given day, it's. It's a pretty good consideration. But to remember seven years of details with, you know, a very specific recall, you know, of exactly what happened, what you ate and all that kind of stuff was. Was impressive. So a lot of journaling.

[Tom Tersich]

It's also like, very surprising with the journals where I was like a pretty, I feel like utilitarian journalists. This happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. And then I have. Okay. I felt like these couple things and then here was like some details. And it wasn't like I didn't go on these grand meditations in the journal. I was having them in my head. But in the journal I wouldn't put those. But as soon as I would go back and look through the journals, it's like, oh man, I remember that day exactly. And I remember going here to this restaurant. It comes back so quickly you can't recall it just, you know, out of your head. But you remember it as soon as you see any details.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah. And then I was going to say, like, it's, it's interesting your comments about Guatemala, how, you know, we progress but we don't. Because if you think back to Middle Ages Europe, they drank beer because they didn't have potable water. And here we are now feeding people. I imagine the world would be better off if we're serving everybody light beer than Coca Cola, but at least more entertaining.

[Tom Tersich]

There's also a similar thing, like going like that. This is just how to view the world. Similar thing for people who are going to travel. So when I was in El Salvador, it was, you could look, historically it was the most dangerous month of the most dangerous year in its, like, recent history. And even then it was only, they estimate as dangerous as the average medieval European city. So cities in general just have become so much safer than they were, you know, a few hundred years ago.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

So when you're traveling, you keep that in mind that today we live in a very safe world.

[Ronan]

Yeah, I, I've become. Are you familiar with Jonathan Haidt? He's a, he's a writer and philosopher. He's really kind of taken off lately. He wrote a book called the Anxious Generation, talking about how social media has had a negative impact on people who, you know, younger people. And then he wrote a book called the Coddling of the American Public.

[Tom Tersich]

Oh yeah, I've heard of both of the books. Yeah.

[Ronan]

Yeah. And one of his themes is like, we're, we're so over protective as parents, even though we live in the safest times of all history and need not be. And I think it's, it's a really important consideration.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. And I think it's also like you need to trust. I mean, I don't know if I'm gonna have kids. We'll see. But also I think you trust like people's adaptability and their resilience. Much more adaptable. And like all, we're like learning machines. We Come out of the womb, and we're just like, all right, information, like, ready to soak it up. And we continue to do that. You can adapt very quickly.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah. It's one of the insights I've had recently is that, like, humans were born for chaos. That is literally our single advantage on the planet is we are so adaptable, which means we thrive in chaos, whereas other organisms do not. And. And we increasingly, as I'm a lawyer as well, and I look at the regulatory world, and, like, we increasingly try and eliminate risk from everything. And that comes at a great cost, not just mentally, emotionally, spiritually, but, you know, the cost of building a house these days. I remember seeing a statistic. I don't know if it's true, but it gives rise to the point which was building the house I'm sitting in right now, you know, in 1970 would have cost 70, $75,000. Building the equivalent house, you know, dollars equalized, would cost $750,000 because of all the regulations about how everything needs to be done. Are we safer? Of course. But what is the consequences of making a cost, a house cost $750,000 as opposed to seven, $75,000. There are costs associated with it. You know, where do you find that balance? I don't know, but it's something that we seem to lose sight of that in a world, you know, all we try to do is mitigate risk. And it's like, yeah, you just can't do that.

[Tom Tersich]

No. Makes a boring world.

[Ronan]

It does make for a boring world. And update, kids, right on page 240, you had a line, and this is one of the, you know, philosophical wisdom nuggets I felt like you wanted to expound on where you said, for all my years of walking, I wasn't a monk. You kind of touched on this question, but what did you expect from the walk? And what did you get?

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I tried purposefully to go into the walk without expectations. You know, it's probably impossible.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

But, yeah, I really tried to go in with this idea that I'm not necessarily a blank slate. I'm going to try and be as much of a blank slate as possible and just let the world kind of flow through me. And I touch on that a little bit in the book as well. I think when I'm in, like, the North Africa section, I touch on that a little bit where, okay, I'm just going to continually just expose myself to the world and let it change me, how it's going to change me. And like I said, in the book, that worked for a long time. And the world will change you for sure, especially when you're not well traveled already and you learn some really important lessons. You learn a lot about yourself, but at a certain point, then your growth needs to become, like, conscious. You need to start directing yourself, because you take away the big lessons. You already have the big lessons. So then you need to fine tune, and you go, okay, what do I now need to really consciously grow? In what direction do I need to really consciously grow, or do I want to grow? And so I think when I began, I had that burning desire, first off, to prove myself to myself and to the world that I could do this thing and that I wasn't just, you know, some, like, foolhardy young kid who had some brash idea. So I want to. First off, I wanted to prove that I could do that. And probably, like, a year and a half in or so, I kind of resolved this. Okay, like, I'm doing this. I'll manage. I'm doing the thing. And then as the years went on, yeah, there was a. I realized, you know, again, spending a lot of time with myself, that I did have this maybe more unconscious desire to transcend into something more, and that just never come, never came and will never come. You know, that's like the classic, you know, wherever you go, there you are. But even on, like, a more fundamental level, like, it's just. You are just human. That's it. And so I had that realization kind of over and over again, and maybe that is like the. You know, that is like the transcendence is that you just realize there is no transcendence, and you become at peace with it. But, you know, same in the same vein of, you know, you kind of have to let your kid, you know, touch the. Touch the oven to know that it's hot and not to touch the oven again. You kind of have to go all the way out there and realize you're still there to realize you have to go all the way out there and you're still there.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

So, yeah, it's probably. That's probably the. The arc of, you know, what I was looking for and what I found.

[Ronan]

Excuse me. He just took me back to that moment in Forrest Gump, you know, where he's running and running and running and running, and then one day he just stops, and he's like, I'm done.

[Tom Tersich]

I think I'm gonna go home now.

[Ronan]

Yeah, that's exactly the moment. And you do it with the perfect accent. Um, you know, it's one of those things. And it's one of the things I've been thinking about. Like, in. In modern society, we value struggle. Right? Um, and it's such an odd thing to value when you think about it. Like, you know, I came up in a podcast recently with Paul Saltzman, which is you. When you have the mindset of no pain, no gain, in whatever form, you want to say that you're subconsciously priming yourself to say, like, well, if I don't suffer for it, it's not worth it. And it's like, it's. It's so illogical when you actually start to underpin it. And how did that play out in your head? Right, because there were various points, it sounded like you were just like, I'm so fucking done with this. But then, like, you found the resolve. Kudos to you for that to keep going. But I think deep down, there's a part of me that would love to love, would love for. If you had to have had the Forrest Gump movement been like, I think I'm going to go home now and, like, just be totally on that being like, that was good enough.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not, like, you know, a sadist. I don't enjoy, you know, bringing myself or others pain. I think the reason I stuck it out was really structural in the sense of when I was 17, you know, my friend Emory died, and then I really weighed what matters to me in life. And so when I was out there and things are really difficult, I would think about the alternative. Okay, I, like, you know, if I could go back and then, you know, every once in a while, get a drink with my friends and, you know. But then also, okay, you have to get an apartment, and then you're getting furniture and. Okay. And then you kind of play everything out in your head. And I would realize, I know, like, I'm living the life that I wanted to live. Like, this is satisfying what I wanted it to satisfy. And granted, it's difficult. And I'm pushing up mountains and through the jungle and the desert, and I'm just tired and sore. And there was days I was just, like, furious at everything, you know, but also it was just deeply satisfying at, like, a really fundamental level for me because, you know, it fulfilled everything that I valued in life. So I think it was more than, like, this embrace of. Of pain. The pain was just kind of like the deal, you know, like, anything, if you want to become something, you're going to have to make some sacrifices in some way. But when you Weigh it. It's fulfilling more than it's kind of taken away in a certain way for you. And the only way for that to be sustainable is if it's really valuable for you. I think also today, speaking to what you mentioned at the beginning, we really value the extremes in a certain way where. And it's just. I mean, this is just the same thing with. It's the structure of media. It's just the way media works is that you want to highlight something that's interesting, you're not going to have it. You can't have a podcast on 10,000 people live peacefully in this little town in Guatemala today, and everyone's having a great time. That's not a story. To have a story, you have to have a little bit of conflict or some exceptionalism, something that draws your attention. That's just literally, you're in the attention business. You and whoever else, you know, and any. Anyone in any media, it's in the attention business. So you have to highlight something unusual or exceptional. But then that also pushes up these kind of psychologies or these mindsets that maybe are from, like, people who have really serious things that they need to work out are, like, way more explosive or masochistic then they. Then it's healthy. And then those psychologies gets pushed out and pushed out, and you think, oh, man, all right, I need to maybe just abuse myself a little more to get to this next level. But then you're just in this constant cycle of, like, self abuse. And, you know, it's okay to just, you know, go about your day and live a peaceful life. That's fine too, you know, and push yourself a little bit.

[Ronan]

Sure.

[Tom Tersich]

But you don't need to be masochist.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that in your thought process, and I'm sure it's more complex than that, but the way you described it, it was kind of binary, which is like, I keep doing what I'm doing, or I can go back to the suburban Philadelphia life.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah.

[Ronan]

You can see that there's like an infinite number of variable variations in between there and here. And I guess my. My question isn't to look back, but looking forward. Having had so much time with yourself, you're in a relationship and it sounds like it's going well, but how do you start to craft or imagine the future that isn't so walking or boring? Suburban life. What does that look like for you?

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I mean, it's difficult right now. I mean, I had the walk for 16 years, and then the book was like, two years of very clear focus. And then that pretty much ended maybe four months ago when I handed off the final, final draft. And so now I'm kind of in like this unmoored state and I'm in the process of kind of reevaluating, you know, what matters to me now. Where do I get satisfaction? What. In what direction do I want to grow? So yeah, it's in. I'm kind of in this like reevaluation phase right now and hopefully in a couple months or something I'll have a clear direction. But yeah, it's, it's. Maybe this isn't like, I wasn't, I was never, I wasn't like a great student. If I didn't care about a subject, I just would not read about it. But then in the subjects that I did care about, I'm getting ace and I would do great. And I think I'm. I've kind of always been that way a little bit where I, I'm kind of not totally binary, but I am kind of binary in that way. Whereas like, I don't value this, I'm not going to give it any attention kind of thing. And so I think whenever I do find the next thing, it'll be like, I came to that because I really thought about it and then it'll be hopefully a sustainable thing so I'm not flailing hopefully as much.

[Ronan]

Yeah. Oh, I hear that. I wish you luck on that one. I mean, it's the funny thing and I think it's important to remember and you're probably aware of this, but it's like it's a never ending process. Just because you go down one path doesn't mean you can't get up and move to another path. And I think that's probably the biggest, probably one of the biggest causes of, you know, unhappiness in the west is like, people are like, oh, I started on this path. Oh, I started reading this book. You know, I really don't like it. Okay, put the book down.

[Tom Tersich]

I totally agree with you.

[Ronan]

Pick up a different book. You don't like your job, go find a different job. Like, yeah, but like we're so attached to the t paleological end of, you know, I've got to get to this place. Or you know, the sunk cost fallacy of like, well, I did all this work so I better. And if we can shift that and just be open minded, being like, it was good for what it was and now I want to something different and be much more. Actually I have friends in Iceland. And I remember hearing about my friend's brother who, you know, went to school, became a lawyer, had kids, decided he didn't like being a lawyer, became a journalist midway, and then, like, switch careers, tour three more times, like, all while having kids. And, like, to the Canadian, American mind, it's like, if you do that, I'm like, that is the way to live life, right? Like, they've got some things right in Iceland. One of the moments that stuck out to me was the ambivalence you had in. I think it was Turkey, you know, toward the stars and the night skies. On page 229. Can you expand on that? I won't ask you what you might have done differently on the walk, but if you were going to advise someone who was keen on following your tracks, what would you advise them?

[Tom Tersich]

So what was. Sorry, can you clarify the question?

[Ronan]

Yeah. Okay. So, like, I, you know, you have this moment in Turkey. You're looking up at the stars, probably the most beautiful stars you. Probably anyone could imagine, and you're like, hey, you know, I just can't be bothered right now. And it's one of those funny things about traveling, is that you get overwhelmed by novelty. That novelty becomes mundane. And, you know, it's. It's that. That, I guess, cycle or that loop. And. And I was really struck by the honesty of that because I think people forget that. Like, it's easy for the novel and the profound to become mundane if you're just constantly exposed to it. You have to in and out, in and out that cycle. And so that elicited in my mind the question, like, what would you have done differently? You get to the point where you're like. At this moment of, like, I'm witnessing possibly the most beautiful thing that most people could imagine, and I don't give a flying fuck. And so there's a lesson somewhere in there to be shared. But I didn't want to say, what would you have done differently? Because you probably had the walk you needed and wanted. But prospectively, if someone was going to ask you, like, what would you. What would you advise me? What were, like, the key learnings that if you were going to do it again, this is how it would be done to avoid maybe some of the pitfalls that you experienced?

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would probably. I wouldn't change much. I think, you know, it. It played out how it's supposed to play out. I think that that portion, that. The way I got to that was. Or what I was trying to demonstrate through that. I guess was just kind of like this overexposure that you mentioned where you just have seen the thing so many times that it kind of loses its meaning. And then also in that same little segment, I touch on this, you know, sense of that no one thing matters so much. And that's kind of like I would have these nights under. In the Atacama Desert a year, two years in, and it was like every night for, like, months. And I just lay out under tarp in the desert. And you'd see more stars than you could imagine. And you would feel them, like, physically, like they were, like, stepping on you. It was crazy. And they just, like, pushing into you. It's like you are so impossibly small, you cannot even. And like, driving that home just like an elephant just crushing you with all their weight. And so then years later, you know, I'll look to the stars and I would have kind of that same association where I go, all right, like, I know. I already know. I'm nothing. I get it. Like, you've told me this like a million times. Please leave me alone. I just want to, like, hang out and exist in this little bubble with someone and care about this someone, please just, like, let me have that kind of thing. So it was this, like. It was almost this. This knowledge that I needed to, like, move past almost, or just like, to for the sake of my own happiness kind of thing.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

And, yeah, as far as, like, what is, like, the application of that lesson? I don't know. I mean, I think it's the same thing where you just have. You have to go out there and experience it for yourself. And I think the. I think the, like, the best advice I could give if someone wanted to do something similar is just to begin, you know, just go out and begin and just take your lumps and fail in every way imaginable. Because it's going to happen and you're going to be in pain and you're going to get cramps and you're going to lose toenails and you're going to do stuff wrong and you're going to get bad night sleeps and you're going to have weird interaction with people. But I'd say that's the only real advice I can give for someone going out there. Just, like, just begin and figure it out along the way.

[Ronan]

Yeah. Yep. I don't see the question. I just had a question. So one of the people we've had on the podcast is the artist, Mike Posner.

[Tom Tersich]

Oh, yeah. He walked across America.

[Ronan]

He walked across America. And one of his insights was that the constant pursuit of comfort in our society is probably the source of a lot of our mental and spiritual and emotional distress. And that, like, being uncomfortable is. Is important. Not always, but, you know, finding that balance. And I suspect you probably found that lesson many, many times over.

[Tom Tersich]

I mean, definitely. I mean, it's. That's how you grow, you know, and it's, it's. It's that balance, like you said, you know, you probably don't want to be a masochist and just constantly put yourself under this, like, impossible, you know, pursuit of growth, of ever, you know, ever more growth. But also you do need the discomfort also. Yeah, the speaking to, like, what Mike said or whatever. They have this thing that I talk about in, like, my motivational speaking, these, you know, engagements that I do at corporations is this idea of embracing inconvenience. And it's something similar where it doesn't necessarily. It's not necessarily discomfort, but maybe it is. But I think we, we live in this age of immediate gratification. And so you kind of put yourself in this bubble constantly and. But then you miss, like, the whole journey. You miss the whole point of life. And so for me, when I'm. I had this, this thought, like, this was back in Seattle. So this. After the walk ended, I moved out to Seattle to be a Bonnie. And I would ride my bike to this library that was like a mile away every day. And a lot of times I'm going in the rain and I go out. There's this one hill in particular. I remember going up and being in the rain. And that's when I had this thought. It was like, it was cold and like, my legs are sore and I'm pumping up this hill. But also it's like, this is so great. Like, this is. Otherwise I would miss this. And then I would miss also the contrast of when I get into the library and be like, ah, man, that feels so good to be into the library. And kind of everything becomes one note. When you don't have that discomfort and that inconvenience, then also you just miss the journey. And that's all it is. There is no ending to this. It's all the journey. And so you. And like the. You. If you, if you're able to embrace like, that inconvenience, you try and you. You start like skipping over life less. Stop trying to skip over everything, you know, because that's. This is all there is. So I think when you, if you're able to flip that a little bit. It provides, it provides some growth and it just helps you just like enjoy life. You know, it's like, take the stairs instead of taking the escalator, do some cooking. You're going to be bad at it, but you figure it out, you know, ride your bike, go, go for a walk, that kind of thing.

[Ronan]

Yeah, it's really interesting because it's like you asked two generations ago, you know, whether they take the convenience of taken the bus or elevator. And they'd be like, fuck, yeah. I've been working my entire life to give, you know, my kids that convenience. And here are the kids being like, I don't want that convenience. And I think it's really important just like recognize that we are the perpetuation of everything that comes before us. And so just waking up to the fact of what they wanted, what they craved because their life was different, or grandparents, great grandparents, doesn't necessarily equate to what we need to. And, and you know, making that conscious decision every morning. One of our previous guests was a woman named Pilar Gerasimo. Chris introduced us, so. Thanks, Chris. And one of the things she said was she has this thing called a renegade ritual. And I know we talked about over habitation of like our lives, but every morning she wakes up and she's like, what would be good for me right now?

[Tom Tersich]

Nice.

[Ronan]

You know, and it's like, it's an invitation to just reimagine, you know, we're not. We live in a world that is the product of all the generations that came before us. But that doesn't mean we have to value what people before us valued. And absolutely. Good reminder, Tinder, really. You walk the entire fucking planet, as soon as you're back here in the US you're on Tinder. I mean, I know you talked about like the loneliness and the desire for connection. Felt like really Tinder, like just got to a bar or something, like the old fashioned way.

[Tom Tersich]

I know. That was like the second time I ever had it. I remember downloading Tinder with my, my buddy's place and being on it for like five minutes, like, oh my God, I cannot do this. Like, deleted it. And then. Yeah, that was, yeah, in Washington. That was like the second time I downloaded it. And it was so funny because it was this really small little valley town and there was like five girls on it. Totally. And the one was like, Alaskan paramedic in medical school. I was like, holy cow. And she's got like, she's standing in a river and she's got a bear. Gun in her, you know, in the coveralls, whatever, is like, holy cow, this girl looks awesome. So it worked out perfectly. Spinning out.

[Ronan]

That's awesome. All right, this is my last question for you, but we can talk about whatever else after. I couldn't help but notice the frequency and severity of the police run ins you have in the US as it seems compared to the rest of the world. What does that tell you about the state of society in the US?

[Tom Tersich]

A few things. Definitely. We are like so protective of private property like nowhere else in the world, really. Nowhere else in the world. It's so insanely protective and aggressively protective and like suspicious. And I definitely had that in me growing up. Like, I had that suspicion. I remember camping in these places and people would find me. I talk about a little bit in the book, but like being found by people and just finding them so much. Like less suspicious and less caring than I could ever imagine myself being. Like, if I found myself on your land, I'd be pissed. I'd be like, get the hell off of you gonna steal something. And these people just did not care. And then when he got back to the U.S. it's like, oh no. Like that's where that psychology came from. And yeah. And then also I think, you know, it's like the, the insane prevalence of guns and gun violence. Also the, the cops just have to be on edge just by virtue of anyone could have a gun on them. And so you start off with this dynamic immediately where everyone's on the defensive and you don't really get that anywhere else. Anywhere else that I've been. And then you really see the contrast in some of these places where there's right to Rome laws. There's a lot like in the Nordic countries and in Scotland where you can just walk through whatever land and if this is just an enshrined right to people should be able to just wander around right to Rome. And there, there's this again, like fundamental understanding that's different, that you're never not where you're supposed to be. So there's. You lose that kind of suspicion. You know where I have a little brief story in the book of me in this bus stop, like pretty close to a town, sleeping when I'm sick and the cops coming and they were just so just like, oh yeah, of course you're sleeping in a bus stop, whatever, no big deal.

[Ronan]

You're right.

[Tom Tersich]

Okay, you're fine. And then the next day giving me sausage sandwiches. Yeah, in the US it's. And also I can come back to the US and because of my country, be more critical of it. And also coming back to my own country after having been abroad for so long, seeing it with fresh eyes. But I think it was particularly sad in the west, where when I was out there, I was reading a few books on Native Americans, and particularly the one that impacted me the most was Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, which was kind of this first book written from the Native American eye. And it's a bunch of these short stories, basically, going from these transitionary periods from, like, the migration of the white man from the east out to the west and kind of how all these tribes tried to navigate this just relentless wave of humanity, just coming over into these formerly untouched lands. And for a lot of them, the way these Native American tribes got screwed over was because they literally did not have the concept of private land like it was. They would write out these contracts and have the chieftain sign these contracts, and he's like, yeah, of course you own the land. I own the land. Everyone owns the land. You know, like, this doesn't mean anything. And so to go from that and see, like, America is as beautiful as anywhere in the world, and the American west is insanely beautiful. It's gorgeous. But then you see it all fenced in, every inch of it. Some of these states are fenced in, and you can't go anywhere. And then, you know, there's like, no trespassing signs, and, you know, there's like, we'll shoot. Shoot on site, stand your ground. You just go, man, this is just so heartbreaking because this is so beautiful. And it's come so far from where we were, you know, hundreds of years ago. So, yeah, it was. Yeah. And then, yeah, with the law enforcement, you know, they're in a tough spot because everyone could have a gun on them, you know, and it's kind of just like. It's a structural thing as well. You know, you start on the defensive because you have to be.

[Ronan]

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. One of the stories that struck me, actually, probably more emotionally than others, was, I think it was in Algier, you know, the cop who was constantly harassing you, I guess, like, in a nice way, but, like, constantly asking questions and getting you right. The. Right. The letter so you could get a visa and all that kind of stuff. Was there any part of you being, like, careful what you wish for, man, you know? Yeah, you want your two wives and your Corvette in America, but I guarantee in 20 years, you're going to be diverse from both and, like, regretting how much you spent on that Corvette was. Was that voice in your head or.

[Tom Tersich]

You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, for him, I think. I mean, America would be America's. We talk a lot of. A lot of crap on America, but, you know, America is a very wealthy place. And if he got a job in America, he could send money, some remittances back to his family, and then you have the passport and you can travel. I mean, he can travel. He actually couldn't travel anywhere because he worked for the state as a policeman.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Tom Tersich]

But the average American or Algerian citizen, I think they're. Their visa. They can only go visa free into, I think, five countries. It is money. Just four countries. So now, I mean, I can't blame the guy for, you know, I didn't really have that thought. I was like, yeah, I mean, I was very fortunate that I was born there and, you know, and he probably wasn't able to get in, you know, and my boss, the one who got me the visa into Algeria was Algerian, like I wrote about in the book. He was able to get asylum from the civil war that was happening in the 90s, and he's never been back to Algeria. And it's not to say it's like Algeria's. Algeria is a safe country now and it's pretty nice and. But there's just, you know, more opportunities in some places than others and, you know, can't. Can't blame the guy for wanting more opportunities.

[Ronan]

Yeah, that's fair. I remember. There's two other questions ahead. Social media. You know, you talked about how you got back to the US and part way in new. Like, I stopped posting on Twitter and Instagram and all that kind of stuff. Did you ever. I've come to resent and despise, you know, social media. I think I've said this before, but I think history will be very unkind to Steve Jobs for unleashing this on the planet. And I think social media is probably one of the things that the world could do without entirely and be no worse off and in fact, much better off. Did you ever start to resent feeling compelled to post and share and all that kind of stuff? I know I certainly do, especially as I try to build awareness for this podcast and I hate it. So wondering what your relationship was with it throughout the journey, especially its impact to. And you touched on this when we first started chatting, you know, take away from your being present wherever you were.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I definitely hold resentment towards social media and I always have. I've never. I Think before the walk. Before the walk, I didn't have an Instagram. I might have had a Facebook, I'm not sure. But I opened Instagram because I had this fundraiser. People donated money to me, and I was like, okay, I need a way to share it. So I will say it's provided me with this really incredible community that, you know, that has supported me through the walk and after the walk. So I'm very grateful for that. And that's been, you know, a big boon. But at the same time, I always try to set the expectation that I'm just going to post whenever I feel like posting and don't expect me to post whenever and kind of like set it up that way. And I think it's just gotten worse and worse, though. I think social media has gotten really, just so much junkier even than it was when I was there. When I was on Instagram, it was just like, photos, and you're seeing your friends photos, and now you go on and it's just like, we're just going to blast you with just, like, the dumbest nonsense and just like, destroy your brain and you're going to love it and you're going to be so addicted to this. And, like, it's really so terrible now. So. Yeah, but during the walk, it's. I think it also, though I would say the positive of it, the positive relationship I had with it was that it was a great record keeper. You know, I. It kind of forced me to take a photo every day at least. And I'm really, really grateful that I have all these photos and it got me into photography and I have that record and kind of this log of. Of my emotions and my. My thoughts as. As I walk to this, you know, another daily journal. So I'm really grateful for that. But, yeah, I mean, if I could delete it, I would delete it in a second today.

[Ronan]

So what you're saying is that you have Stockholm syndrome. Syndrome. Last question. You've traveled a lot of places. Um, you know, we were just ripping on the US for its. Its, you know, negatives and positives. If you could just choose a place to live, of all the places that you would go, where would you. Where would. Where would you take Bonnie? Assuming she could practice wherever you go, where. Where would it be?

[Tom Tersich]

It'd probably be Denmark.

[Ronan]

Okay.

[Tom Tersich]

Ultimately, uh, I just want to ride my bike around. Pretty much that's how I want to spend my days.

[Ronan]

Eat Danish pastries. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, exactly.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I want to ride my bike around, have Good healthcare, make sure everyone else has a good healthcare, work 30, 25 hours a week, have my kids go to school for 30 hours a week and still somehow get a great education. Probably Denmark. Denmark was really transformative for me in a certain way where, like, when I walk through Central and South America, the cities are really chaotic. And also just like, I also. If I did it now, it'd be different because I seen more of the world. But I had, like, a lot of this PTSD from walking through some of these Central American and South American cities. And I remember when I got to Europe, and the first country I walked in here, besides Iceland, but with the cart in Savannah, was Ireland. And I remember getting into. I don't know if it was. If I was going through Dundalk. No, it wouldn't have been. It would have been Galway, probably. Yeah. On the west coast side. Going through Galway and walking through. And I was so hyped up with stress. Like, my brain was, like, maxed out. Oh, my God, this is going to be. So I just got to get ready. Everything gets tight. So I just got to get through the city, get to the other side, and then I'm walking, you know, this pedestrian walkway, and it's pretty quiet and peaceful. I was like, oh, wait, like, this isn't just chaos around me, and I can just kind of go. But Denmark was, I think, where I had this realization that it wasn't cities that I disliked, it was the cars in the city that I disliked. And when there's not a lot of cars in the city and people are biking around and walking around, you're like, this is just like an adult playground. This is amazing. And I'm gonna go get on my bike, and I'm gonna. We're gonna go get a coffee, and then we're gonna go sit in the park. And it's quiet. It's like, sit. And not every city has to be loud and, like, noisy and dirty. It was this real distinction that I had never had before before in the Americas. And then. So from then on, from since then, I've been like, you know, I, I, I probably, you know, I walked around the world, so I was always probably pretty low on the. The odds of, like, being, like, a car enthusiast or, or getting a car. But us at Denmark really changed me in the sense of, like, man cars just kind of destroy everything. They are, like, this, the scourge of the earth. And we've just been duped by these massive industries into believing that this is freedom, this is everything. And yes, I Would go to Denmark just so I could ride my bike around and have a really fun city to enjoy.

[Ronan]

Yeah, no, I hear you. I live in downtown Toronto, so there's a lot of walkability. But I work up in Concord, Ontario, which is pure suburban hell. And I hate the people who design cities that way, and I hate the perpetuation of that. It's got to end. It's a terrible existence.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah. There's just more fun ways. Like when a city is not all car dependency. They can be really fun, and they should be. They should be fun. That's what we're here to hang out with our friends. We should be able to do that and enjoy it.

[Ronan]

Yeah, exactly. All right, man. That's all I got. I was going to ask a question about ayahuasca, but I'm going to break the rules and not talk about psychedelics too much on this podcast, so we're going to stop there. All right. The actual final last question is, what did you learn about people around the world? I was just mentioning in our interlude that I knew somebody who hitchhiked around the world, and one of the key pieces of advice he gave is that, like, 99.5, maybe 99.8% of people on the planet are good. You share that advice. Is that what you learned about the world Round by.

[Tom Tersich]

Absolutely, yeah. 100% agree with that. Yeah. People are nice everywhere. I think it's one of these really jarring things that happens when you first start traveling, is that you have this image of what places are like in your head. I remember I had this with Peru and El Salvador, but really in Peru, I was like, oh, my God, this is. I could never imagine I'd be walking across Peru. This is going to be crazy. And then you get there and it's just like, oh, it's just like people hanging out, you know, it's people, you know, just like, the same everywhere. And also, I mention it in the book, but one of these things that helped get me through when I was stressed about walking somewhere new or discovering somewhere new was that this is someone's home. It's not my home. But for someone else, they know every corner. They know where the community center is. They know the little bodega. And so when you have that perspective and you realize everywhere where people are is someone's home, you realize you're kind of always in a hometown. And, yeah, I mean, you know, you run into, you know, some weirdos here and there, but you run into. You run into weirdos in your hometown. There's always, you know, some guy that, you know is the town, you know, oddball, whatever it is. But yeah, I would say definitely 99.9% of people are good and kind.

[Chris]

Hey, podcast people, don't leave yet. This is your favorite, favorite podcast producer, Chris. And after we recorded this episode, I stuck around to reflect and ask Ronan some questions about the interview. All right, Ronan, I was just saying I love this podcast. It feels like an honor to get to work on this show because you have such interesting people on.

[Ronan]

Yeah, we've been very fortunate and it's cool. You know, it's nice to hit a tipping point where people reach out to be on our podcast. So, you know, it was Tom's PR person or publisher reached out saying, hey, we think Tom would be a great guest and it's nice to see the fruits of the labor starting to pay off.

[Chris]

You know, it really resonated with me because just the adventurousness of the whole, the whole journey because I've lived in the same city since I was three years old. Yeah, my whole life. And so it made me wonder, I was, I'm curious, do you have any travel stories? Like, not maybe not as long, but anything of a journey where you feel like you came home different or it was mind expanding in some way?

[Ronan]

Yeah, for sure. There's been lots of travels, not nearly as extensive as home, but I would say the big one was I spent six months living in Australia doing an exchange at Lost School. And then I spent the last month because school ended mid November there and my semester back in Toronto didn't start till January. So I had a good six, seven weeks where I just traveled initially with some buddies and then on my own. It was the first time traveling on my own. And it was an incredible sense of self accomplishment doing it on my own. I'd never done anything on my own, truthfully, that much, but to that point. And yeah, you know, besides the skydiving and the bungee jumping and all the crazy and parties that I engaged in, it was. I made some of the best friends of my life on that road trip. You know, Andy and Aaron, we don't talk to nearly as much anymore. And yeah, it was just a time of growth for me where I was stepping into my own, going from being a student to. To being an adult. And that was awesome. And you know, I touched on it with Tom, which is like you have these peak experiences and it's so easy to get trapped in the belief that all of life should be a peak experience. But as he noted, and as I learned too, you can't stay in the peak experience. And I think the happiness in life comes from deftly navigating from peak experience to the mundane and back every day, every week, every month. Finding that navigation. Because I think we're so much taught to believe that we should be in a constant state of more optimization, better, faster, stronger, richer, or more profound. And that doesn't work. Just doesn't work. Life. Life does not work that way. And so finding the balance, everything in moderation. Including moderation.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. I think the other thing I was reflecting on listening to you guys is that Tom feels like a good fit for this podcast because he's a rule breaker who doesn't follow, like, the things you're supposed to do, just this normal life path. One of the things that seems central theme was, like, the problems with cities, like, we don't realize how problematic our car culture is. Does it make you think about getting further away someday, changing your location, not commuting into the suburbs of Toronto for work?

[Ronan]

Oh, yeah. First of all, I think everybody recognizes the problems with car culture, but we have a collective action problem that no one wants to do anything about it. Fortunately, most of my time is spent in downtown Toronto, where I have access to probably the shittiest subway system for any major city worldwide. But it is somewhat functioning, and so it's easy to get out and not have to drive, at least not in the winter months. And I appreciate that, you know, when you get out into the country, you're going back to car culture now, admittedly, without the traffic of it, but you definitely go back to car culture. Do I have ambitions, thoughts of leaving? Maybe one day, but I don't know. I'd never go to, like, a suburban outpost, that's for sure. I definitely want to go to a place where there's a healthy sense of urbanization and easy ways to get around that don't involve cars. That's. That's a given. What about you?

[Chris]

Well, like I said, you know, I've lived in Austin since you were three. My whole life.

[Ronan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, there's a lot of comfort here. My clients are here, My family's here. It's very familiar. So I don't know. I'm envious of people who are more adventurous, but I think I've come to accept that I just really like a certain level of routine and comfort, certainly open to something that is like two weeks long or four weeks long or six weeks long, but I really don't Want to be living my life, going through airports or buses, or sleeping in a different place every single night. So I'm just happy to glean the learnings from other people who are a little bit more outgoing than myself.

[Ronan]

Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think I've come to a point where I understand the appeal, I understand the enjoyment and the insight you get out of it. And I don't need to do that anyway. You know, I've had some experiences like that and dabbling into it every once in a while is great. But when I check in about what matters, what success looks like to me, it's being with my family, it's having great conversations. It's every once in a while going out and doing something fucking crazy and grandiose and traveling to an extreme spot or something. But not all the time. Not for seven years straight, that's for sure.

[Chris]

Seven years. So one more question. Tom talked a little bit about the perks of traveling solo. And it sounds like you don't have to make compromises on what you're doing next and you be more spontaneous. And it just, it made me think, do you ever long for your own solo kind of travel adventure that isn't just work related now that you're married and have kids? Or is the next adventure to take the whole family and say, hey, let's, let's go somewhere for two weeks or three weeks and do this together as a family? Do you have any kind of bucket list travel destinations you would want to go either solo or with your family?

[Ronan]

Yeah. So the answer to the first question is, for a long time, all I craved was solid solitude. You know, when you have kids away, family, friends, work, you don't get much time on your own. And for a long time all I wanted was that solitude. And I got a lot of that, particularly through work travel. And it's only been in the last six months though, that it started to shift where what I want is deeply shared experiences with the people that matter to me. That is much more important than the solitude. Solitude gets lonely very quickly. It is enjoyable for a little while, there's no doubt about that. But when you've had enough experience with it, you don't crave it anymore. And I don't crave it at all anymore, to be quite honest. Places I would go, I would love to take my kids to Israel. I know it's a subject of a lot of political discussion right now, but whatever you may think politically, it is an amazing country with an amazing and resilient people with such history. I'm a big fan of places that have a lot of history where it comes alive just being there, just being in its presence. And I think it would, it would help my kids recognize where they came from and, you know, part of their foundations. And similarly, I'd love to take them to Scotland and Ireland where much of staff's family came from. It's just like get that connection and, and Tom talked about in his book quite a bit about going back to Croatia and seeing, you know, the bigger of his family, you know, the history and the generations. And I think there's something profound about it because when you're doing the work that quote unquote work that goes with psychedelics or personal growth or whatever you want to call it, you carry the baggage of your ancestors, there's no doubt about it. And so getting up close and personal with it gives it new meaning, new context, new understanding and I think that's very profound.

[Tom Tersich]

Yeah, I love that.

[Chris]

One of my best friends used to live in Tel Aviv and it just sounds so interesting and really different from this experience in Texas that I'm very curious. You know, you don't realize the culture you're in until you pull away from a little bit and look at it from that outside perspective.

[Ronan]

Yeah, it's one of the things that's cool about Israel and Tel Aviv in particular is that you have probably the single greatest dichotomy on the planet of probably the most high tech advanced culture in the world happening, being situated and built on one of the oldest civilizations, whether that's Israeli, Hebrew, Palestinian, whomever, anything in the, in the Mid east, you know, that's the cradle of so much of civilization, at least Western civilization, that to get that dichotomy in one place is such a cool experience.

[Chris]

That's interesting. I just finished watching Conan Must Go on hbo.

[Ronan]

Okay.

[Chris]

Is a fun, silly travel show. So hey, if you ever do go bring a camera and some microphones. Let's take the show on the road.

[Ronan]

Let's do it. I'm in.

[Chris]

You can interview some people, like different countries.

[Ronan]

I'd love that. That'd be fun. That'd be great.