’90s Vogue Alumni Reveal Their Real Reaction to 'The Devil Wears Prada'

Summary

The Run-Through with Vogue

Episode: ’90s Vogue Alumni Reveal Their Real Reaction to 'The Devil Wears Prada'

Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Chloe Malle, Nicole Phelps, and Chioma Nnadi
Guests: Billy Norwich (former Vogue writer/editor, author), Kate Young (celebrity stylist, former Anna Wintour assistant)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the real-life experience of working at Vogue during the years that inspired "The Devil Wears Prada," with vivid memories and candid commentary from two Vogue alumni, Billy Norwich and Kate Young. After a special Vogue Book Club screening of "The Devil Wears Prada 2," the conversation explores how closely the world depicted in the books and movies matches life at the magazine. The episode also includes behind-the-scenes Met Gala stories, favorite fashion week moments, and thoughtful reflection on the changing landscape of Vogue and the broader fashion industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Vogue Book Club & Reunions

• The recent Vogue Book Club event featured "The Devil Wears Prada" film screening followed by a conversation with former Vogue staff, including several Anna Wintour assistants from the last 25 years, creating a joyful reunion.
• Chloe: "We invited 33 former Anna assistants... and it was so much fun to see everyone from people who worked at Vogue 20 years ago to people who worked here two years ago. And it was a really fun reunion." (03:02)

Working at Vogue: Then and Now

• Hard work and high standards have been constants at Vogue, both in past decades and today.
• Billy Norwich juggled a daily news column while at Vogue: "From 1985 to 1991, I wrote something called the William Norwich column in the New York Daily News... 1,200 words six days a week from Vogue." (21:16)
• Kate Young recalled using her downtime before the job started to read every press article on Vogue and Anna Wintour, arriving fully prepared: "I spent a month in his office with nothing to do... So I read them. I, like, knew everything." (23:15)

The Reality vs. The Fiction of 'The Devil Wears Prada'

• Initial reactions at Vogue were uncomfortable, especially when the book and movie first appeared; staff felt mocked as well as exposed.
• Kate Young: "It was horrible. Yeah. What a neat. So now, you know, I mean, it's cool that everybody likes it now and everybody thinks it's cool. But at the time it was like she just was making fun of us." (28:07)
• Billy Norwich attended the screening with Anna Wintour and was caught off guard by the depiction of 'Nigel,' whom some people believe was inspired by him: "I was shocked that they thought, well, we can't really caricature Andre, but let's get the little Jew. And so they got the little Jew." (24:20)

Fashion, Style, and Office Dynamics

• The group reminisces on the intimidating, exhilarating experience of starting out at Vogue, including the fashion stakes and the expectation to be fully immersed in the culture and history of the magazine.
  • Kate’s interview outfit: "I had used all my graduation money to buy a Tom Ford Gucci first collection blue satin blouse... Patrick Cox shoes, which nobody remembers anymore, but they were really great." (22:26)
  • Office prep: reading every piece of press, knowing every name and detail (23:15)
• The culture was one of meritocracy by hard work: "Everyone worked so hard. Everyone was so smart. They all looked, I mean, like, look at them. Everyone's like so chic. They're so beautiful... And it's the first time I was like, oh, I'm not a freak. I love these people." – Kate Young (29:46)

The Famous 'Vogue Quiz'

• The infamous "Vogue test" of 100 people—created by Billy Norwich and Charles Gandy—was intended to weed out job candidates unfamiliar with Vogue's significant contributors.
• Billy: "So we made a list of 100 people... this was before the computer. I don't know where the guy Michael Grinbaum got this list from. Did you send it to him?" (33:39)
• Iconic test questions included: Who's Diana Vreeland? Who's Anna Wintour? ("There were also questions about Proust..." (33:53))

The Met Gala: Past and Present

• Kate Young and Billy Norwich share stories of their first Met Galas, drawing stark contrasts between the event of today and its humbler, more intimate roots.
  • Tickets for juniors/assistants used to be $150, and young people mixed with fashion icons on the dance floor (37:08).
  • "Marc Jacobs, would stay and dance with all the assistants. It was fun." (37:14)
  • "It was rare that a celebrity, a movie person, or went to the Met Gala." (38:07)
  • Billy remembers Cher attending, inconspicuously, with Bob Mackie (38:35).

Advice on Breaking Into Fashion

• Kate's now infamous career advice: "You said your advice to become a stylist was to max out your credit card and start smoking. Do you stand by that?"
  • Kate: "I don't think that's maybe true anymore. But, you know, when I started, it mattered how you looked." (39:26)
  • Smoking, she adds wryly, "was how you got to hang out with people who wouldn't normally talk to you." (39:52)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the readiness and intensity of Vogue offices:
  • "I spent a month in his office with nothing to do... I read every article on Anna. I read every article on everybody who was at the magazine. So I was really like, you were ready to go?" – Kate Young (23:15)
• Billy on his double life:
  • "When my office in Vogue and I would close the door, perhaps conflict of interest, and write my column 1200 words six days a week from Vogue." (21:25)
• Kate reflecting on 'The Devil Wears Prada':
  • "It was horrible...she just was making fun of us." (28:07)
• Billy on being mistaken for 'Nigel':
  • "I was shocked that they thought...let's get the little Jew. And so they got the little Jew. And I hated his ring in the first movie...There are copies and copies. And really of that ring. Absolutely. Dvogue should make a Stanley Tucci ring." (25:54)
• On working at Vogue:
  • "Everyone worked so hard. Everyone was so smart... And it's the first time I was like, oh, I'm not a freak. I love these people." – Kate Young (29:46)
• On the old Met Gala:
  • "All the fancy people had to walk out through that. And people, like cool people, you know, like Marc Jacobs, would stay and dance with all the assistants. It was fun." – Kate Young (37:14)
  • "Mrs. Onassis...they always said it was their favorite part of the night was seeing how the young people came and kind of presented themselves at the party. It was very different." – Billy Norwich (37:24)
• Advice to aspiring stylists:
  • "When I started, it mattered how you looked...smoking was, like, how you got to hang out with people who wouldn't normally talk to you, you know?" – Kate Young (39:26, 39:52)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Vogue Book Club and Anna’s Assistants Reunion: 02:44 – 03:32
• Discussion on fashion industry work ethic: 04:09 – 04:32
• The Devil Wears Prada: Insider Reactions: 19:52 – 30:16
• Met Gala history & the ‘kids table’: 35:22 – 38:52
• The Vogue legacy and the industry’s democratic culture: 29:36 – 32:03
• How to break into fashion (and the notorious advice): 39:19 – 39:55

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Episode Tone & Language

• The conversation is witty, candid, and deeply personal, balancing nostalgia with critique and the kind of humor that comes from true insiders. Experiences are recounted with affection but also with refreshing honesty about the less glamorous aspects of fashion culture.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This episode delivers a rich, behind-the-scenes look at what it really meant to work at Vogue during the era that inspired "The Devil Wears Prada," tackling both enduring myths and lived realities. With first-hand accounts, memorable anecdotes, and thoughtful discussions, it’s an essential listen for anyone fascinated by the inner workings of fashion media—or the truth behind the legend of Anna Wintour’s office.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Chloe Mal]

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[Chloe Mal]

This is the run through. I'm Chloe Mal.

[Nicole Phelps]

I'm Nicole Phelps.

[Choma]

And I'm Geminati and I'm here in nyc which I love being in.

[Chloe Mal]

I did get a text from Mark Meducci this morning. Spotted on C1.

[Choma]

Cho Minotti yeah, it's been lovely to be to be here and it's such

[Chloe Mal]

a sweet our British Queen coming to visit on the day that the real British Queen is visiting the World Trade Center. So security getting into the building has been challenging.

[Choma]

Oh my God. I didn't understand. I'd forgotten that they were coming down here.

[Chloe Mal]

I remember. And then I was reading the draft of the summer cover story and missed my stop and went to Rector instead. So then I had to walk. I had to go under. I felt like such a dodo.

[Choma]

So you've missed your breakfast and your stop.

[Chloe Mal]

I know.

[Choma]

Good day for you.

[Chloe Mal]

It's been a frenetic morning. It is, as you can hear, a busy week at Vogue. I am a bit of a manic week. We are in full Met prep Mode T, minus what, six days? Five days.

[Nicole Phelps]

Five.

[Chloe Mal]

Five days. And we had our second Vogue Book club event earlier this week featuring the Devil Wears Prada. It was so fun. We screened the new movie and. And afterward I had a conversation for the podcast, which you will hear today with Billie Norwich and Kate Young. Billie is an amazing author and former Voguer, and Kate Young is a renowned celebrity stylist. And they were great. It was so much fun to hear them reminiscing about working at Vogue in the early aughts. And what I was most excited about was that we invited 33 former Anna assistants from the last 25 years, and two dozen came. And it was so much fun to see everyone from people who worked at Vogue 20 years ago to people who worked here two years ago. And it was a really fun reunion.

[Choma]

Oh, it must have been nice to see them all catching up.

[Chloe Mal]

And Devil wears Prada 2 is out on Friday, and honestly, I can't believe this movie's not in theaters yet. I'm really feeling we've covered all our bases.

[Choma]

I'm seeing it this weekend with some old Vogue crew. I'm very excited.

[Chloe Mal]

So fun.

[Nicole Phelps]

We'll be eager to hear your feedback.

[Chloe Mal]

Nicole, what were your takeaways from Billy and Kate's conversation?

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, I thought that the book was not all that insider, and I really like the insider story, so I was very appreciative to hear Billy and Kate and what they said really rang true, which is then and now. You have to be a hard worker.

[Choma]

Well, if you want to work at Vogue.

[Chloe Mal]

Well, the book was an amazing takeaway, was that I feel like a lot of people who write for the Internet now are, like, back in the old days of journalism, you just had to write for print once a week. And now I have to write, you know, two blog posts a day. And Billy Norge reminded us that while he was working at Vogue, he was also a daily columnist for the daily news, writing 1500 words a day.

[Nicole Phelps]

His side hustle was 1500 words a day.

[Choma]

Can you imagine? I would just be strung out.

[Chloe Mal]

I know I'm not that person. 1200 words a day.

[Nicole Phelps]

For some people, it comes.

[Choma]

It's just easy. Yeah. It's just like a stream of consciousness.

[Chloe Mal]

Hamish is like that. Hamish can write something brilliant in two hours.

[Choma]

It's ridiculous. I remember him, his obit of the Queen, and it just was like a.

[Chloe Mal]

That's how I feel about the Valentino obit. And he didn't have any of his books to reference, and he just wrote it in two and a half hours. It was very impressive. But before we get into the Billy and Kate conversation, I want to talk about headlines of the week.

[Nicole Phelps]

What?

[Chloe Mal]

Choma, tell us about your trip.

[Choma]

Oh, it's been so fab so far.

[Chloe Mal]

Happy birthday.

[Choma]

Thank you.

[Chloe Mal]

Thank you.

[Choma]

Had a lovely weekend.

[Nicole Phelps]

And Nicole's birthday a little bit earlier. Yeah. I'm an Aries and Choma's a Taurus,

[Choma]

but, you know, it's a very big month for Aries. Right? Yeah, actually.

[Kate Young]

Oh, precious.

[Choma]

Lee texted me, and she's absolutely, like, an astrology queen. I have to respond.

[Nicole Phelps]

We're both Decatur, Georgia, babies, too.

[Choma]

Oh, are you?

[Nicole Phelps]

I don't know what that means.

[Chloe Mal]

I love her, but are you both cusp thingamabobs?

[Choma]

Because I've got seven planet in Aries, so I always feel a lot of kinship with Aries, and a lot of my favorite people are Aries. So she told me she misremembered it because I was talking about that, and she thought it was an Aries. So she's telling me that this is a major moment in Aries.

[Nicole Phelps]

All right, well, I hope I see her at the pre med party and hear all about. Yeah, I care all about the April.

[Chloe Mal]

So, Choma, you've been new for a few days.

[Choma]

Sorry. I got very excited about the planets all of a sudden. I've been here a few days. I mean, you know. You know, it's like New York life. I'm looking. There's so much happening. I'm looking forward to the Met preview. I'm looking forward to the prima party. I mean, I thought we have to talk about the Chanel resort show before we go any further.

[Chloe Mal]

It looked amazing.

[Choma]

It looked amazing. And I. I think the shoes, or the lack of shoes, we're writing about that.

[Chloe Mal]

We wrote about that.

[Choma]

Right.

[Chloe Mal]

We had two writers go toe to toe, whether they're pro or con. I wish I had a naked foot.

[Choma]

I just don't have beautiful feet, so I will never be pro. The naked foot. I think it looks so elegant with elegant feet.

[Chloe Mal]

But you were only wearing what we're talking about.

[Choma]

Yeah.

[Nicole Phelps]

First of all, how remarkable this was, how amazing. This was Metje's fifth show since September. And you know, just how prolific he is is. Is really astounding. One of his funniest ideas this season, which is cruise, are these sort of non shoe shoes, to coin a Laia Garcia Furtado ism, where they're basically just little metal. It looked like metal heels tied around the ankle. No. No toe, no vamp, no sole. Really. And you Know quite only a few little places in the world you could wear a shoe like that and not.

[Choma]

I want to see at Cannes, don't you? I want to see at Cannes because it's the biggest. It's the biggest rule breaking thing and it's the most elegant thing. And obviously they weren't in Cannes, but they were definitely nearby in Biarritz, which

[Nicole Phelps]

is where the show was. Which is where Coco Chanel set up her couture house in 1915.

[Choma]

Oh my gosh.

[Nicole Phelps]

So it was a sort of going back to Chanel's beginnings moment.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay, Yeah. I was wondering, why Biarritz?

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, she also, she set up a shop in Deauville, I think, in 1913. And the couture house where she made couture clothes came a couple years later in Biarritz.

[Choma]

And can you give us a bit of a, like, cruise refresher? I feel like every time I need to be reminded, like, what this season is.

[Nicole Phelps]

Cruise is this in between season between fall and spring. And it was originally they called it cruise because it was the close that the elite, the upper classes took on their cruises and other warm weather holidays. You know, when the Upper East Siders would head down to Palm beach, say for, for the, for the winter to, you know, keep warm. And so they'd need their, their beachy kind of clothes.

[Choma]

Nice.

[Chloe Mal]

And now they pop up far flung around the world and it's sort of this, you know, climate catastrophizing. Right.

[Nicole Phelps]

It was actually Karl Lagerfeld who sort of got that started. I remember the first Chanel cruise show that was not in Paris. It was on the. In Grand Central in one of those sort of. What do you call that? Like a balcony, you know, right above the great hall. And it's going pretty far back. I will be dating myself if I say how long ago it was.

[Choma]

That sounds like a pick location for a show.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes, it was before 2010, so it was a long time ago.

[Choma]

So cool. What were your favorite looks from the collection? Like, what did you love about it?

[Nicole Phelps]

About this show?

[Choma]

Yeah, about this show.

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, I thought what Sarah Mower said was really right. The way that Mathieu can sort of make something extraordinarily special, but also quite easy to wear, which is a really hard combination to get. But he's really getting it with, you know, their dropway silhouettes, which is obviously a callback to Coco. I really like the very full skirts. They were almost like grassy beach skirts with the half zip, the quarter zip.

[Chloe Mal]

I love that the evolution of the quarter zip.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Choma]

I've been feeling a quarter zip lately.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes. And Mattia himself wears them every day,

[Choma]

and so does Bavitha, who she was scouted in, I think in a.

[Nicole Phelps]

You're a covergirl.

[Choma]

Yeah, exactly.

[Nicole Phelps]

British Vogue cover girl.

[Choma]

Yeah. And on that note, I just loved the casting. I love. We're seeing who. Who Mathieu's women are. This wonderful casting you had that pregnant model, Kaia Wilkins. She's a musician, so she's not sort of a traditional model. And then he has a wonderful vintage store owner, Stephanie. What's her last name?

[Nicole Phelps]

Cavalli. Stephanie Cavalli. She has a store upstate.

[Choma]

Yes, yes. Who I'm obsessed with and I've been mistaken for in the Chanel store for, which is quite embarrassing. But I mean, how fab. She's like the most fab woman ever. And, yeah, I just think we're getting a clearer idea of. Of, like, who his women are and his models are, and I love that.

[Chloe Mal]

No, it feels like his world building is one step farther, which I really am excited about. Next up, cruise show is the next big one on my itinerary is Dior in LA, which is on what, the 14th.

[Choma]

A lot of LA shows, right? There's a few. And isn't something else coming to Gucci?

[Chloe Mal]

Well, so it's first It's Dior in LA on the 13th. Then that weekend it's Gucci in New York on the 16th. Then the following week, it's Vuitton in New York, which is rare that big brands like that are doing in New York. Very nice for us.

[Choma]

I know.

[Nicole Phelps]

Jealous.

[Chloe Mal]

And then a little bit later, in early June, Hermes is showing in la,

[Nicole Phelps]

and so is Zhenya, which will be a men's show.

[Kate Young]

Okay.

[Choma]

Do we have any hunch about where. I'm always sort of curious because I think both Nicolas Ghasquier and Demna have very interesting choices for venues. Do we have any hunch where would be your dream place to see, like, an epic show in New York that hasn't been.

[Chloe Mal]

They're being very secretive about it.

[Choma]

Where would we want it to be? Like, where hasn't been used.

[Kate Young]

Done?

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, it's such a beautiful time of year. I think it would be cool to do something outside. I mean, we know that Nicola loves architecture.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Choma]

I'd love to see something at the Cloisters. I know it's far.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Choma]

Has anything ever been done there?

[Chloe Mal]

It's a good question. The closures would be amazing. I also can see Nicola doing something at, like, the U.N. although that would be such a nightmare that he wouldn't.

[Choma]

But that's in the middle of Central Park. Something crazy.

[Chloe Mal]

The problem with Central park is that you can't you. There's very rarely permitting for tents. So it's a completely weather dependent. I wanted to get married in Central park. So I looked into this and it's just. It's very hard to take that risk. Ralph Lauren did it and they just took the risk.

[Choma]

But they didn't. It was covered. They did it in the.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, so they must.

[Choma]

They did it in the. It was kind of an under.

[Nicole Phelps]

Wasn't it in Bethesda Fountain?

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, but that was so it was under the underpass. That was the rain plan.

[Choma]

It was beautiful actually.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

But no, I'm exciting to see Vuitton and Gucci's version of their New York City moment.

[Choma]

Do you have any favorite show venues in New York where you've been like, oh, this venue is.

[Chloe Mal]

I loved the Tommy Hilfiger fairy show.

[Nicole Phelps]

Oh yes.

[Chloe Mal]

That was so fun and so charming and cheeky. And I also loved Anna insisting on knowing that the ferry was not moving. She was like, I don't wanna be at sea.

[Choma]

Trying to think. I stressful, but also super. On Brand was like Telfar did one at a kind of a helicopter.

[Nicole Phelps]

Helicopter pad. Wasn't it pouring rain?

[Choma]

It was crazy. I mean, but it was so on brand for Telfar. I'm actually excited to go to the store because I haven't been and I've heard it's a really interesting shopping experience.

[Nicole Phelps]

I think the same day that Telfar did that show at the helipad, Rodarte did a show in the Marble Cemetery on second street, which is such a pretty show. Such a pretty.

[Chloe Mal]

My friend Theslie got married there and

[Nicole Phelps]

it was so pretty.

[Choma]

Such a beautiful. Such a nice place. Sorry, I'm going off tangent, but just

[Chloe Mal]

thinking you really do love New York. I do.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

We're so happy.

[Chloe Mal]

There were major. I mean, to me two resort shows that I stick out to me as being probably a nightmare for PR or people organizing. It was the Chanel show in Havana which had a. I went to Havana a few years before that and it's very challenging. Oh my God.

[Choma]

I wanted to go to that.

[Nicole Phelps]

Famously that plane had very, very bad turbulence. People were freaked out on the plane. Yes, ask anybody. They'll a lot of Internet problems.

[Chloe Mal]

But also I thought the Jacquemus show at Casa Mal Parte was incredible and such a cinematic, beautiful space. So yes, I do think these resort moments are to Me marketing at its best for these brands.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes.

[Choma]

Big news of the week for me is like, finally, the mystery of the big rock on Zoe Kravitz's finger. She's here. I mean, they're engaged. It's like, who?

[Chloe Mal]

That's crazy. Eight months.

[Choma]

How can we. What couple are they when you know you can't compare them to, like, who? I mean, I guess it's like her mom, like, actress and rock star. I mean, she's kind of repeating history.

[Chloe Mal]

It's sort of a Jerry Hall, Mick Jagger vibe.

[Choma]

Yeah, Jerry Hall, Mick Jagger.

[Chloe Mal]

But yes, there's a lot happening. I also love that she's, like, has a collaboration with Jessica McCormack and then got a Jessica McCormack ring.

[Kate Young]

That's classic ring, unmissable.

[Choma]

It's huge.

[Chloe Mal]

It's really huge.

[Choma]

How many carrots do we think it is?

[Chloe Mal]

Do we know? And she's also so small that the ring loves.

[Choma]

Even made a very delicate lady. But, yeah, I'm really excited for them. I think Harry's such an emotional, sweet guy, and he needs someone who understands his world, and she gets it. You know, she grew up in that world, and she understands what it means to give an artist, like, a space, but also to be supportive and knows what it means, like, what it means to have, like, a million eyes on you at all times. So I think they're just kind of the hottest couple ever. Yeah, well, maybe not ever, but they're the hottest couple.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay, let's close out. Headlines on some Met Gala related items. We've been doing so much fun lead up content. I loved Hannah Jackson's story on voguestaffer's favorite pieces of clothing and art. I love Flaming June, but also any of the stripes in Vuillard paintings. And I also, obviously, the blue dress in the Comtesse d'. Haussainville. The Ingres painting that's at the Frick is one of my favorites. What about you guys?

[Nicole Phelps]

I chose the Kiss by Gustav Klimt. I had that, you know, massive poster above my bed in junior year in college, and it reminds me of that time.

[Choma]

I love that.

[Chloe Mal]

And for anyone who wants to be part of the Met Gala prep, come to the Vogue Cafe this weekend. It is popping up at Ultra Paradiso here in New York City in SoHo.

[Choma]

I hope there are nibbles, because the

[Chloe Mal]

food there is amazing. We have amazing food.

[Nicole Phelps]

Oh, the flavor.

[Chloe Mal]

Well, there's Ultra Paradiso food, but also we have amazing pastries from Hondi's Bakery, which we're very excited about. And it's our first Vogue Cafe in New York, so we're very excited. Doors open to the public at 10am on Saturday and from 9am on Sunday and Monday. So drop in Choma. You had such a fabulous one in London.

[Choma]

Yeah, it was fun, but I love Alto Paradiso, so I'm very excited to see the New York one. And I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be. There's gonna be so many people that's gonna be.

[Chloe Mal]

And Nicole, what are you doing?

[Nicole Phelps]

I'm doing a live taping of the podcast with Tory Burch on Saturday, and there will also be a screening of the documentary the first Monday in May, as well as additional other programming. The cafe is open to the public. Some of these events require registration, however, so check the app. Right now.

[Chloe Mal]

Tap on your Vogue app. All right, thank you guys for so much fun to have Troma in the studio in the flesh. Now onto my conversation with Kate Young and Billy Norwich. The run through will be back in just a moment.

[Nicole Phelps]

Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford.

[Billy Norwich]

And I'm John Ross.

[Choma]

And we're the hosts of Little Gold

[Nicole Phelps]

Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV and awards lovers.

[Billy Norwich]

And just because the Oscars are done

[Nicole Phelps]

for now doesn't mean we are. Join us every week for coverage of the biggest stories in Hollywood, interviews with today's brightest stars, and so much more.

[Billy Norwich]

Listen to Little Gold Men every Thursday

[Nicole Phelps]

wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chloe Mal]

All right. Hi, everybody. Thank you for staying. We appreciate it. I hope that you enjoyed the devil wears Prada 2. And as we've been reading the book and revisiting the first movie, there have been many conversations in our office about fact checking, fact versus fiction, of what the book and the movie were really like compared to what it was actually like in the early aughts. And none better to discuss that with us than Kate Young and Billy Norwich. Billy was a incredible writer and editor who worked at Vogue in the late 90s and in the early aughts. And I will say many think he is a part inspiration for Nigel himself. So, Billik, please come. And Kate Young is an incredible stylist whose many beautiful dresses you have seen on red carpets the world over and you don't even know it. Well, a lot of you do. And she worked in Anna's office in the time that Lauren Weisberger worked there. Not that year, but around the time. Kate, thank you for being here. Can you both tell us what you're up to now, but also when you first started working at Vogue?

[Kate Young]

I'm a celebrity stylist now. And I started writing, or I started working for Anna.

[Chloe Mal]

Right.

[Kate Young]

Kind of. Out of college. And I was in that office for one year.

[Chloe Mal]

What year?

[Kate Young]

97. We figured this out on text, but I think it was 97.

[Nicole Phelps]

Okay.

[Chloe Mal]

Billy, what about you?

[Billy Norwich]

Well, in the 1980s, I was a very heavy drinker. And there was a. A restaurant. Anna was not the editor of Vogue yet. I was tipsy. And when I was tipsy, I also thought I was at best bisexual. So I started flirting with Anna. Many years later, she became the editor of Vogue.

[Chloe Mal]

This is such a better story than I thought it was gonna be.

[Billy Norwich]

I've never told you this story, have I?

[Chloe Mal]

Exactly.

[Billy Norwich]

And I think that. Not to digress, but I think if you're a gay man and you think a woman's beautiful and can be the highest form of friendship. So she became the editor of Vogue. I always wanted to work at Vogue. I had a cousin in the old days, you know, Vogue used to be twice a month and she was an illustrator and she'd come visit. So I worked at Vogue. But concurrent with that, which was called the British model, I had a newspaper job and from 1985 to 1991, I wrote something called the William Norwich column in the New York Daily News. This is analog days. And then two years at the New York Post when my office in Vogue and I would close the door, perhaps conflict of interest, and write my column 1200 words six days a week from Vogue.

[Chloe Mal]

I'm sorry, 1200 words six days a week.

[Billy Norwich]

That's why when people say, oh, you're too old for the Internet. Which they did when they launched vogue.com,

[Chloe Mal]

whatever you want, it's more than a blogger.

[Billy Norwich]

Yeah. And they invented the computer at some point when I was at Vogue. So then I went and worked at the New York Times as the so called style and entertaining editor. And there was a. The copy editor there used to. Every time my name appeared as the entertaining editor, he would send the late Amy Spindler, who was my boss, asking, how entertaining is Billy Norris? And then I went back to Vogue after Amy died and was there until 2012. And then for the last 10 years, I've been at the editor of fashion and interior design at Fiden Press. That's what I do.

[Kate Young]

Yay, Dylan.

[Nicole Phelps]

Hey.

[Chloe Mal]

What did you wear to your interview with Anna?

[Kate Young]

I had used all my graduation money to buy a Tom Ford Gucci first collection blue satin blouse.

[Chloe Mal]

Wow.

[Kate Young]

So I wore that. Do you still have it? No.

[Billy Norwich]

Cerulean blue.

[Kate Young]

Totally. And Patrick Cox shoes, which nobody remembers anymore, but they were really great. Right.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay. What was the hardest thing about starting in Anna's office?

[Kate Young]

Well, I actually got hired by Paul Wilmot. He was the PR director at Vogue, and he left Vogue the day I started. And I spent a month in his office with nothing to do while he was setting up a whole new business. And there was, like, file cabinets of all the press on Vogue and Anna from, like, the last 15 years. So I read them.

[Chloe Mal]

Wow.

[Kate Young]

So I, like, knew everything. I read every article on Anna. I read every article on everybody who was at the magazine. So I was kind of waiting for him to leave because Anna had already hired me. But I, like, kind of had this dead zone where I was in the office every day, and I just kind of, like, watch what was going on. So I was really like, you were ready to go?

[Chloe Mal]

Unlike Andy Sachs.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And I loved fashion, so, like, I was psyched about it all.

[Chloe Mal]

Wow. I want to know, before we get into more about what it was like way back when, what did you guys think of the movie?

[Billy Norwich]

When I saw the first movie, I think I told you this, but we went with Anna, and we didn't know what to expect.

[Chloe Mal]

Tell the group.

[Billy Norwich]

So we went in 2006 to a screening. It wasn't a premiere, it was a screening. And I went with Anna, and I was delighted to be asked to.

[Chloe Mal]

Was it the one at the Paris?

[Billy Norwich]

At the Paris.

[Chloe Mal]

I was also there.

[Billy Norwich]

You were there behind us. Now you're ahead of us. And when it was over, Anna was very intent on not being drawn into the publicity. So she didn't want to have her picture taken with Meryl Streep, but she wanted to wear Prada, which is her humor. Intense humor. Intense humor. And I'm wearing a Prada suit from when I could afford a Prada suit. And the backside is so thin. This might be the last time I get to wear it, but never mind. So when the movie was over, Anna leaned forward, she looked down and said, are you okay? Because I had no idea. In the book, it's a very tall man that we all assumed was Andre. However, when I went and read the book. You made me read this book. Again. I realized it was that man is white. The character is Caucasian. So I figure in the movie. And I was shocked that they thought, well, we can't really caricature Andre, but let's get the little Jew. And so they got the little Jew. And I hated his ring in the first movie, and I hated the ring. And so I said to Anna. I hate his ring. I would never wear it. I know. Goodbye. And off she ran. And didn't have a picture taken. Now how good a fashionista am I? That ring? I thought before tonight I should Google the ring. Everybody and their brother wants the ring. There are copies and copies. And really of that ring. Absolutely. Dvogue should make a Stanley Tucci ring.

[Chloe Mal]

I think we're okay. But you have.

[Billy Norwich]

Yeah. Okay.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

Wow. Kate, you started in Anna's office, and you lasted a year, and then where did you go?

[Kate Young]

Fashion market. Okay. I had a lot of jobs, so I was a fashion market assistant. When I started working at Vogue, Anna asked in the interview, what do you really want to do? Because everybody knows that's a temporary position. Like, you know, there are 20 of us here because you only do it for a few years, and then you do something else. So I wanted to be Dorothy Parker. And I told her that in the interview. And then there was, like, a caption. Writer job came up, and they sent me home with, like, a spread and said, write the captions. And I was like, oh, I don't want to do this. I want to be down, you know, like, where Grace had all the racks and they were, like, packing for Harbor Island. I was like, I want to be there. So I told Anna that. And then the market director needed an assistant. I didn't want to work there at all. All those girls sat in a pen and just got, like, yelled at by the fashion editors who were, like, stealing the clothes all day long. And Anna said, well, if you want to be a stylist, you have to be a market, you know, like that. You need to do that. That's foundational. So I went and did that for a long time.

[Chloe Mal]

And were you there when Awfully long time, the Devil Wears Prada came out?

[Kate Young]

I think I was Tani's assistant. You know, I mean, we've talked about this a lot. I mean, you went to see it. I read the galleys. I never read the book. I never saw the movie.

[Chloe Mal]

Tell me about reading days ago. It's sort of spreading around the office that there's this galley. How do you get it?

[Kate Young]

Lisa Love got it and sent it to us in, like, inner office mail. Cause it couldn't come, like. And then we brown smoked paper and the, like, loading dock where you could smoke at four Times Square and, like, read it to each other. It was horrible. It was horrible. Yeah. What a neat. So now, you know, I mean, it's cool that everybody likes it now and everybody thinks it's Cool. But at the time it was like she just was making fun of us.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Billy Norwich]

I read on the way down here, Kate Betts did the.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh my God, I just read that in this movie. Woo.

[Billy Norwich]

Do you think it holds up?

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, sure.

[Billy Norwich]

Kate Betts was a features. I don't know what her last title was. Probably features director. And then she left to become the editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar. Therefore, she was in a position to be asked by the New York Times to review the Devil Wears Prada. And it is accurate, cutting, cutting, cutting. Clever and cutting and worth a read. I think that really speaks to our experience at the time of when the book came out and then the movie. Very different experiences. The movie quickly became charm, charm, charm, charm and giggles, Giggles, giggles. That's all. And no, no, that's not a question. And we all memorized it. But the book was. Well, I had to leave Vogue in order. Vogue people worked so hard. Now it might have been about getting the chiffon to all tied together sometimes down the hall, but there was such a high level of perfectionism and I never heard. And I suppose there are some heiresses there working at Vogue. I wasn't aware of anyone. I had to leave Vogue and go to that other job and hear someone scream. I don't need this job. Said the rich person working. Everyone just worked at Vogue. And it was very democratic that way. But I'm digressing.

[Kate Young]

No, I mean, I said to you, like we talked about this before and like when I got to Vogue, I was like, oh, I fit in here.

[Chloe Mal]

Like, why?

[Kate Young]

Because everyone worked so hard. Everyone was so smart. They all looked, I mean, like, look at them. Everyone's like so chic. They're so beautiful. They're like clip, clip, clip, clip down the hall, like running because everything was important. And they could all talk about shoes for like a day. And it's the first time I was like, oh, I'm not a freak. I love these people. Everyone who worked there was amazing, you know, so the book was hard because

[Chloe Mal]

I was like, Billy, what's your biggest pet peeve about the first or second movie? Fact, verse, fiction wise.

[Billy Norwich]

My pet peeve would be every time I get on an airplane. That's what was playing. And so I couldn't escape the first movie. But I think, do we have time for me to tell an old Vogue history story?

[Nicole Phelps]

Sure.

[Billy Norwich]

Picture it. Well, I don't think anyone here can. World War II, the Saturday Review was weekly, weekly. And the war comes and there's a whole editorial that Vogue has any respect for America, they would stop publishing. The editor of the Vogue at those days, Edna Woolman Chase, wrote an op ed the next week saying we are so dedicated at Vogue to what she called gracious living that if our readers are ever thrown sackcloth, we know our readers will wear it with pizazz. And to me, that was always feeling blue wear red. Fashion was an intervention. It wasn't. We were not a shopping magazine. Vogue still isn't a shopping magazine. Its legacy is exploring. I mean, Michael Boudreau is here, the sainted features editor of Vogue. Back in those days and everything. I mean, I remember saying to him, am I going to write another lipstick story this year? He said, make it better than last year. And just finding the commonality, the human experience within it was what Vogue was for me was that and still is it's gracious living appreciation.

[Chloe Mal]

Well, Billy, what I really was excited by, and I know a lot of my colleagues felt the same way, was last year the New York Times published an interactive quiz that was a version of a. I got a perfect score. We texted you.

[Billy Norwich]

Well, I've.

[Chloe Mal]

Tell us about the quiz I'm talking about.

[Billy Norwich]

Yeah, with the convergence of the Internet and cable TV especially. Oh, they needed free programming. So fashion became this thing and everyone's filming fashion, filming fashion, giving it away free to the non. The magazines. And the magazines are trying to catch up with a website. Suddenly everyone wants a job in fashion. And people would come to Vogue. With all due respect, does anyone from HR here, why did you let them up? Those poor children and Chloe, they would. You got the sense they never read Vogue. So the late Charles Gandy and I were noticing this and we came up with a list of 100 people that were sort of our constant cast of characters. Whether they were in, you know, if they wrote a book, if they coughed, if they made a frock. They got covered in Vogue because they were the constant cast of characters. Arts, theater, sport. So we made a list of 100 people. This was before the computer. I don't know where the guy Michael Grinbaum got this list from. Did you send it to him?

[Chloe Mal]

I didn't. I wish I had had an early

[Billy Norwich]

copy of it and it was the test and we would give it to people came. I love Vogue here, have do this test. And they had questions on it like who's Diana Vreeland, who's Anna Wintour? And there would be people who didn't know.

[Chloe Mal]

I mean, there were also questions about Proust, but sure.

[Billy Norwich]

Well, well, I mean, didn't Irving Penn, take a picture of Proust. I mean, no, Proust was always discussed. Because if you interviewed someone at Vogue. What are you reading? They didn't read Judith Kranz. They were reading. I'm rereading the remembrance of things past. Look at my wicker garden. And it was. Yeah. So we did this test.

[Chloe Mal]

Well, it went viral big time.

[Billy Norwich]

They made a T shirt. Chloe, I have the T shirt.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, I know. I do too.

[Kate Young]

I don't.

[Nicole Phelps]

We'll get you.

[Billy Norwich]

I'll give you mine. It doesn't really fit me.

[Chloe Mal]

The run through will be back in just a moment. If group chats had a podcast, it

[Kate Young]

would sound exactly like this. Unfiltered beauty secrets, wellness trends we actually try.

[Chloe Mal]

And the kind of real talk you

[Kate Young]

won't find on Instagram or anywhere else. From celeb confessions to life's messy moments. Nothing's off limits. I'm Molly Sims, founder, actress, model, producer,

[Chloe Mal]

and now your text or audio bff.

[Kate Young]

And I'm Emma Sha Gormley. We're in this together, ladies. Join us every week for Lipstick on the Rim.

[Chloe Mal]

Billie and Kate, we are one week out from the Met Gala. And I feel like the Met Gala today, juggernaut that it is, is different than it was in the late 90s. Kate, I want to know about your first Met Gala experience. And I also want to know about this supposed kids table that apparently.

[Kate Young]

Oh, the party in the front room.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Was fun.

[Choma]

What was it?

[Chloe Mal]

What happened?

[Kate Young]

So, my first Met Gala. Let's see, we got to wear black, which I was really excited about.

[Chloe Mal]

I told you, this is very rare in the Vogue universe.

[Kate Young]

So when I first started working at Vogue, they used to make all the staff working at parties wear toca dresses. And nobody knows what that is anymore, but they were very chic. But I don't ever want to look like that. They were like Easter egg colored dresses. Toka, do you remember Marion odejan? That's a 100 person I remember. So perky. Yeah. I got to wear black. It was very cool. And I had to memorize all the names.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, so you were doing the real Emily Blunt thing in the movie where she whispers the name?

[Kate Young]

Yeah. We both stood behind her and had to know all the names. And then Katherine Graham was there that night, and she was a little bit old, so my job was to, like, make sure she got to the dinner. And then I think there was a gospel choir that year. Do you remember there was a year the gospel choir came down the stairs?

[Billy Norwich]

Oh, yeah, there was.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

Black dress. K Graham and Gospel.

[Kate Young]

So it's a winner. Yeah. And then there used to be a party in the front room, and it was like, fashion assistants and, like, PRs and people who worked for designers. And the tickets were cheap. It was like a dance party.

[Billy Norwich]

They were $150. Wow. And you have 500 young people come.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

But the good part was all the fancy people had to walk out through that. And people, like cool people, you know, like Marc Jacobs, would stay and dance with all the assistants. It was fun.

[Billy Norwich]

And Mrs. Onassis and Mrs. Buck, Pat Buckley, they always said it was their favorite part of the night was seeing how the young people came and kind of presented themselves at the party. It was very different.

[Chloe Mal]

Billy, what was your first met?

[Billy Norwich]

My first met was probably in 1985, and it used to be at Christmas time, and it would unveil the Christmas tree. And Pat Buckley, who was the wife of William F. Buckley, Jr. Was the chairman of it. She had taken it over from Mrs. Vreeland. And it was the. It was rare that a celebrity, a movie person, or went to the Met Gala. It was.

[Chloe Mal]

You mean Beyonce didn't host?

[Billy Norwich]

Beyonce didn't. She wasn't born yet. And I remember Bob Mackey, who was controversial because he was Sequins. Sequins brought Cher. And I was a cub reporter for the New York Daily News, and Cher was hiding behind a pillar. She was so uncomfortable.

[Chloe Mal]

Wow.

[Billy Norwich]

In her. Bob Mackie. In her. Like, where the hell am I in New York society? What is New York society? So that was my first one, and I went every year until 2016. Wow. Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Okay, wait, so you went when it was bizarre?

[Billy Norwich]

Yeah. Cause I had.

[Chloe Mal]

I was covering Harper's Bazaar, not B

[Billy Norwich]

I Z. Yeah, it was always bizarre. No, Liz Tilburys hosted it, may she rest in peace.

[Chloe Mal]

Last question. Kate, in an interview you gave a while back, you said that your advice to become a stylist was to max out your credit card and start smoking.

[Kate Young]

Do you stand by that sound advice?

[Chloe Mal]

How do you launch yourself into the style, into your career?

[Kate Young]

I don't think that's maybe true anymore. But, you know, when I started, it mattered how you looked. You know? Like, I think I certainly couldn't afford all the clothes that I was wearing when I was at his assistant. But, like, I wanted to fit in and I wanted to look a certain way. And smoking was, like, how you got to hang out with people who wouldn't normally talk to you, you know?

[Billy Norwich]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Chloe Mal]

All right, well, thank you guys so much, and it's so exciting. That everyone's here.

[Billy Norwich]

Thank you. Chloe Moll, the future Vogue.

[Kate Young]

Thank you, Chloe.

[Billy Norwich]

We're so excited to participate with you.

[Chloe Mal]

Thank you, Billy. Thank you, Kate. That's it for the run through.

[Choma]

The Run through with Vogue is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Alex John Burns, with help from Emily Elias. The show is engineered by Bran Bundy and mixed by Mike Kutchman. Bye.

[Chloe Mal]

Comprehensive, witty, speculative. Critical.

[Nicole Phelps]

Insightful. Profound.

[Chloe Mal]

Wide ranging. Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously.

[Billy Norwich]

I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world. I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Nicole Phelps]

Thoughtful, exquisite, just, you know, real.

[Choma]

From prx.