Branden Jacobs-Jenkins Unpacks Purpose | PLUS What Tariffs Mean For Fashion

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Run-Through with Vogue Episode: Branden Jacobs-Jenkins Unpacks Purpose | PLUS What Tariffs Mean For Fashion
Release Date: April 10, 2025
Host: Chloe Mao and Cho Benadi

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1. Introduction

Chloe Mao and Cho Benadi kick off this engaging episode by previewing a delightful conversation with acclaimed playwright Branden Jacobs-Jenkins and Vogue features editor Marlee Marius. The hosts express their enthusiasm about Jacobs-Jenkins' new play, Purpose, highlighting its unique take on the traditional family drama genre.

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2. Impact of Tariffs on the Fashion Industry

Before delving into the main interview, Chloe and Cho address the recent developments in tariffs affecting the fashion world. They discuss a significant policy rollback announced by President Trump, excluding China, coupled with Phylicia Rashad’s involvement in Jacobs-Jenkins' play, which underscores the episode's blend of politics and art.

Key Insights:

• Hilary Milnes, Executive America's editor at Vogue Business, provides an in-depth analysis of the tariff changes.
• Consumer Impact: Unexpected delivery fees are surfacing as consumers receive notices from carriers like UPS and FedEx about owed tariffs, sometimes totaling hundreds to thousands of dollars (03:56).
• Retail Response: Retailers are swiftly repricing products to mitigate increased costs, with projections indicating that prices will continue to rise (05:27).
• Fast Fashion Doubts: Brands like Shein and Temu are challenged by the loss of shipping exemptions, potentially jeopardizing their ultra-fast fashion models (05:50).
• Environmental Opportunities: The tariffs might serve as a catalyst for the fashion industry to rethink and possibly improve its supply chains, addressing issues like forced labor and environmental harm (06:26).

Notable Quote:

"The price of everything I think you can expect to go up slightly at the least."
— Hilary Milnes (05:27)

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3. Interview with Branden Jacobs-Jenkins

a. Overview of Purpose

Branden Jacobs-Jenkins discusses his latest play, Purpose, a family drama that reinvents the genre by focusing on a Black political dynasty grappling with buried secrets. Directed by the esteemed Phylicia Rashad, the play has received praise for its humor and poignancy.

Notable Quote:

"Purpose is a family drama, or I guess, comic drama, some people might say. And it centers on a black political family that has had dynastic ambitions."
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (20:29)

b. Inspirations and Themes

Jacobs-Jenkins draws inspiration from classic American family dramas like Tennessee Williams' The Glass Menagerie. He aims to explore the seldom-seen dynamics of a Black dynastic family, delving into themes of legacy, trauma, and the personal costs of social justice.

Notable Quote:

"Theater's like, our gem for that kind of thing."
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (44:31)

c. Collaboration with Phylicia Rashad

Working with Rashad has been transformative. Jacobs-Jenkins praises her ability to uncover the emotional core of characters and her meticulous attention to set and costume design, which enriches the storytelling.

Notable Quote:

"She really chose those colors. She can tell you the story behind every choice so that she can tell you what each of those objects is saying about that family in a way that I was like, you must do what you want to do, Ms. Rashad."
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (37:17)

d. Acting and Set Design

The play features an intimate setting described as a "jewel box of a theater," enhancing the immersive experience. Actors like Harry Lennox and Alana Arenas bring depth and variability to their roles, contributing to the play's dynamic atmosphere.

Notable Quote:

"She's a genius. What she does with words and the way that she can just play the rhythm of a scene."
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (28:33)

e. Personal Anecdotes and Family Life

Jacobs-Jenkins shares personal stories about his parenting journey, including the challenges and joys of raising his daughters, Indigo and Neon. These anecdotes intertwine with his creative process, reflecting how his personal experiences influence his work.

Notable Quote:

"Neon is a larva, basically. And it's true. For, like, two months, your kid's just a larva."
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (48:33)

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4. Closing Thoughts

Chloe and Cho wrap up the episode with heartfelt reflections on the intersection of art, family, and industry challenges. They express gratitude towards Branden Jacobs-Jenkins for sharing his insights and invite listeners to explore the transformative narratives within Purpose.

Notable Quote:

"This is the safest space with all these other human beings to sit there and go, like, am I angry about society?"
— Branden Jacobs-Jenkins (43:29)

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Key Takeaways

• Purpose by Branden Jacobs-Jenkins offers a fresh perspective on Black family dramas, enriched by Phylicia Rashad’s direction and stellar performances.
• Recent tariff changes present both challenges and opportunities for the fashion industry, potentially reshaping supply chains and consumer behaviors.
• Personal experiences and societal themes deeply influence Jacobs-Jenkins' creative process, highlighting the power of theater as a space for exploring complex emotions and narratives.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Chloe Mao]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This is the run through. I'm Chloe Mao.

[Cho Benadi]

And I'm Cho Benadi.

[Chloe Mao]

This week we have a very fun episode. I spoke with playwright Brandon Jacobs Jenkins, along with Vogue features editor Marlee Marius, and we had the best time. We were just cackling with him. We barely wanted to leave the studio. And we talked about his new play Purpose, which we saw a few weeks ago. It's this amazing family drama that I feel like is such a well worn genre of theater piece, but he has completely reinvented it in a new way and it centers on a black political dynasty and the secrets that come out when everyone comes home together. And it's extremely funny and poignant and directed by Phylicia Rashad, who everyone's in love with. We all agreed. Brandon obviously made his big waves last year on Broadway with Appropriate, that won three Tonys and his plays, Gloria and Everybody were also finalists for the Pulitzer Prize for drama Choma. Did you see Appropriate?

[Cho Benadi]

I didn't actually. I feel like I'm. When I come to New York, I should.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, you should see Purpose. You would love it. It's so good. And actually, funnily enough, before becoming a full time playwright, Brandon worked at the New Yorker in the fiction department back when our Conde was at 4 Times Square.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

No way.

[Chloe Mao]

Really funny to talk to him about that. And he has two little daughters named Indigo and Neon, which we were obsessed with that naming situation.

[Cho Benadi]

Love that.

[Chloe Mao]

But first, headlines. Hi everybody. Quick caveat before we get fully into headlines. I am currently in my office recording with our producer Stephanie Kiriuki. That is because when we originally recorded this episode at noon on Wednesday, it was a couple of hours before President Trump announced a rollback on most tariffs except for China, which the administration says it actually plans to increase tariffs to 125%. I was in a different meeting around 1:30pm and got a New York Times push alert and audibly gasped. Oh fuck. So we are rolling with the punches here, as I think most people are. And we had this conversation with Hilary Milnes, the Executive America's editor at Vogue Business, before this news. But because there's still so much uncertainty about what the effects on consumers and fashion could be, and because right Now Trump is saying that it is only a 90 day rollback. We wanted to still share how the tariffs could affect consumers and the industry as a whole. And if anything changes by the time you hear this, take it all with a grain of salt. All right, here's our conversation with Hillary.

[Cho Benadi]

Yeah.

[Hilary Milnes]

Hi, Chloe. Hi, Chuma. So happy to be here. Somehow tariffs have taken over my life recently.

[Chloe Mao]

I can imagine. Can you catch us up on where things are at the moment?

[Hilary Milnes]

Yes. So, you know, I think you mentioned it. The biggest news as of yesterday was the increase on China's tariffs. But we've seen China slap retaliatory tariffs on the U.S. as of this morning. China's tariffs now on the U.S. imported goods are 84%.

[Chloe Mao]

Are consumers seeing the impact yet?

[Hilary Milnes]

What consumers are seeing now, we've, we've started to see some really interesting reports. Mostly I've seen it on social media, on Instagram and TikTok. If you look back at take one tariff step backwards, China, Canada and Mexico already had tariffs placed on them earlier this year. And we have seen people reporting that if they're getting a shipment in from Canada, say you love shopping on Essence as I do, or any distributor that's based in Canada, people are getting emails from UPS, the post office, FedEx saying that they are owing hundreds of dollars, sometimes thousands of dollars on receipt of their package and if they're not willing to pay it, they have to send it back. So that I think as we're going to see more people encountering these delivery fees that are kind of unexpected, I think, you know, we hear a lot about prices going up, but it is impacting shipments in the US as well. But in general, prices are likely to go up as well. I've heard from some executives and analysts that it could be as soon as this week and that retailers are repricing things on the FL to try to hedge and buffet this increase in cost that they're about to face. And then, you know, down, right down to fast fashion. We're seeing ultra fast giants like Shein and Temu, they're losing a shipping exemption that let them send packages under $800 into the US at no duties. So the price of everything I think you can expect to go up slightly at the least.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Wow.

[Cho Benadi]

I mean, is this going to have like, is this, is this going to have a put the death down into fast fashion if, if it's no longer kind of viable to like, you know, when I think about brands like Sheen, who you can buy an entire outfit for under $20 like is, are we seeing the end of that kind of, I guess, retail model?

[Hilary Milnes]

Yeah, I, I think there's two trains of thought there. On one hand, if Shein's prices go up even by a couple of dollars, would that make people reconsider whether or not it's actually worth it? Will Shein be able to maintain its model? Don't really know. Shein is looking into expanding its distribution and manufacturing network, but China's actually pushing back on that as one of its tactics against the US So it's really putting companies all over the world into these really difficult positions and consumers as well.

[Cho Benadi]

I mean, is there any silver lining?

[Chloe Mao]

Are there any opportunities environmentally too, if, if there's less fast fashion being produced?

[Cho Benadi]

Yeah.

[Hilary Milnes]

Yeah. So now we've heard some analysts and executives say that, you know, could this be the galvanizing event that causes fashion to rethink its supply chain, how it makes things. This fashion supply chain is riddled with, you know, really unsavory things like forced labor and, you know, cheaply made goods and, you know, environmental havoc. So could this lead to fashion moving out of, you know, some of those habits? It feels a little pie in the sky right now. But I have heard some people start to say, you know, let's try to find the good in this and just, you know, reiterate why we exist in the value chain. And, you know, customers will start to see that as well.

[Chloe Mao]

Because you did say, I think it was, I don't know if it was your article or someone else evoked business, but that there was an estimated 50 million customers were lost last year in the luxury goods area. And I just wonder how much that increases in 2025 if this continues the way it is.

[Hilary Milnes]

Exactly. And I think, you know, already, like when, if the economy is, you know, inflation is high, there's a cost of living crisis, it's luxury customers that are the most insulated. But when you see global stock markets starting to crash and spiral those, you know, that that's no longer the case. They're no longer as, as protected from that. And I think just the uncertainty is not great for l Sentiment, consumer sentiment, confidence. People are a little distracted right now, I think.

[Cho Benadi]

Do you think any companies will consider moving manufacturing to the U.S. i mean, it's, it's, it's cost prohibitive. I can't see it myself. But, like, what could that be something that, a model that could work for businesses that have a big, you know, they have a big market in the.

[Hilary Milnes]

U.S. something that I don't think executives or the industry ever really considered, except, you know, maybe now that their backs are up against the wall, it's, you know, the cost to set up some more production or manufacturing here versus the cost of the tariffs. I think right now it's wait and see. Everyone I've heard from is saying that, you know, even if you think about local, you know, American companies like Gap, American Eagle, Abercrombie, there's just not the capacity in the US Right now. So it would take years of building that up. At the same time, raw materials that just don't exist here, like that is a net that has to be imported in, and the tariffs on those are really high. So I think we. But we have heard from some executives that they are considering, you know, what could we move here to sort of move some costs around? Obviously, denim, cotton. A lot of that, you know, does exist in the U.S. but the costs are. Are higher, as you mentioned, and there's a lot of challenges in the way.

[Chloe Mao]

Well, I guess, Hillary, just a follow up to Choma's question. Are there designers in the US who already are doing their production and distribution here who are going to benefit from this, who maybe have an edge now?

[Hilary Milnes]

Yes, there definitely are. I think we've. We've talked to a couple of designers, especially, you know, bridal. We talked to a couple of bridal studio owners who can design. Everything's here. They're ateliers, everything except those materials. So that's. That's kind of a sticking point. And then I think they're worried about increased competition coming in and the capacity of the manufacturing partners that they have. We heard from one denim manufacturing CEO that was kind of making an appeal. Like, if we are already manufacturing in the U.S. shouldn't we get some kind of exemption from, you know, tariffs on materials or something like that? But, you know, I think he acknowledged that that was kind of a long shot. I think it. It raises questions, you know, what are the real motives of these tariffs? Is it to actually increase U.S. production? It kind of feels all over the place.

[Chloe Mao]

Thank you so much, Hillary. This is so helpful, and I really do feel like you explained things for us in a way that I feel like I hadn't completely internalized yet or. Or processed. So thank you.

[Hilary Milnes]

Okay, good.

[Cho Benadi]

Yeah, thank you.

[Hilary Milnes]

Like you said, it's a little. It's definitely messy, so I appreciate it. But thank you, guys. Enjoy the rest of the episode.

[Chloe Mao]

All right, thanks.

[Cho Benadi]

Hilarious.

[Chloe Mao]

Bye.

[Cho Benadi]

Bye.

[Hilary Milnes]

Bye.

[Chloe Mao]

Okay, Choma, how's your week going?

[Cho Benadi]

It's going pretty good. How's yours?

[Chloe Mao]

Good. Everyone here is still recovering from White Lotus. And Emma Specter did a very funny piece on the penalties or spoiler alert, the penalty for a dirty blender should be death, which people really loved. I posted it on my Insta stories and I got. I have not gotten that many responses to an Insta story since I, like, announced Alice Albert's birth. It was like people feel very strongly about their blender hygiene.

[Cho Benadi]

I mean, I question that too. I was like, only like teenager. I know a grotty teenager who wants to get drunk. Like, why wouldn't you Already can't wait for the next one.

[Chloe Mao]

I know Radhika on your team. Radhika Seth did a great sort of everything we know about season four already and it is confirmed it will likely not be until like 2028 because last time there was a two to three year gap between them. 2028, I mean, no one knows, but we're just speculating based on past gaps. And there's been some Easter eggs about. Producers have said probably we'll go back to Europe, but then someone said, oh, maybe it'll be like skiing, which I think would be really fun. But then apparently Mike White is not a fan of the cold, so don't blame him.

[Cho Benadi]

Don't blame him.

[Chloe Mao]

And then Elise did a really fun piece on sort of all the different other Four Seasons properties it could be. And the Marrakesh Four Seasons, I feel like, could be a really fun take. So anyway, things to look forward to. Getting.

[Cho Benadi]

Getting lost in the Murder in the Zouk.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm excited because I'm gonna have hacks fill my White Lotus hole starting Wednesday night. And I love hacks. I love Jean Smart. So that'll be. Apparently the season's great. It's Salone del Mobile in Milan this week. Liam Hess is there. And there are so many fashion brands doing design collaborations, launching home things the Row did in the most the Row way ever. They had this like hush hush secret appointment where they just said, meet at this address at TK hour. And so them Liam showed up and his piece was so funny. He described little ingots of crumbly parmesan and then he walked in and it was cashmere sheets. And he also made me laugh because he had a line where he overheard someone saying that they considered including Off White in one of their colorways, but it was too bold.

[Cho Benadi]

And our very own Francesca Ragazzi has an event at Salonis. It was good to hear. Oh, yeah, what is she doing today? They're doing an exhibit which I think explores the history of shopping, if I'm correct. And it's open to the public. So it kind of is a follow up to the big 75th anniversary exhibit that was like such a blockbuster that they did in Milan. So I'm sure it's been a fun week for our friends at Italian Vogue.

[Chloe Mao]

It's not really. We're also doing a piece on street style at Salone because there's an argument that Salone street style is better than Milan fashion. Street style.

[Cho Benadi]

I mean, I think it's probably. It's like the art crowd versus the fashion crowd. Right. I'm always more excited to see art, like Freeze, for example, because it's different and it's more just a different, you know? I know I kind of know what to expect with the fashion crowd, and I like to be presented with something outside of my world. It's always a bit like that, no?

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah, totally. Also, it's less peacocking.

[Marlee Marius]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

People just dress chicly to go about their business.

[Cho Benadi]

Exactly. They're not thinking about the labels or if they're wearing the row or whatever it is. Speaking of, they probably are wearing the rose.

[Chloe Mao]

Still peacocking. Coachella kicks off this weekend.

[Cho Benadi]

I'm not seeing the.

[Chloe Mao]

I mean, people really dress to impress at Coachella. They dress to be seen.

[Cho Benadi]

Listen, let me be clear. I wrote a story that went viral about the death of street starlet Coachella.

[Chloe Mao]

Ooh, I have to pull that back up. Ly is doing a piece for her advice column this week on how should I really dress for Coachella. So we'll be making sure to interlink to. And so how do street styles. Daddy Coachella.

[Cho Benadi]

I mean, listen, I'm someone who went back when it was. When festival style was much more kind of organic and designers were being influenced by festival style, and you saw festival girl style sort of on the runways. But it wasn't something that was so cliche and it was pre. All the kind of flower crowns and all of that. But obviously you had this.

[Chloe Mao]

It was like Kate Moss in the Wellies at Glastonbury. Yeah.

[Cho Benadi]

Lady of the Canyon, specifically at Coachella. I don't know what that is, but, like, just very. Just like, you know, like hippie living in Laurel Canyon, like, that kind of vibe. And I went. And it was when Coachella was much more. Less commercialized and you could buy a ticket for the day. And I went because I was a huge fan of Prince and I saw Prince perform.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God, what year is this?

[Cho Benadi]

It was 2008. It was like One of my best memories ever. I kind of continue to go actually for Vogue. The first year I didn't go for Vogue. It was like, for my birthday because it's always around my birthday. And we kind of went on a whim and were able to get tickets that day. And it was just like, it was mesmerizing. And it wasn't crowded. It wasn't like you didn't feel like you were cattle being forced through these weird, like, electric gates. Like, it was super amazing. And then things started to change and I every. Each year when I just felt like, oh, this isn't for me anymore, and obviously I aged out of it, I didn't go. But the Beyonce one was one. I did feel like FOMO for that one was like that homecoming one was just like. I felt like, ugh, I really wish I would have seen that. I remember watching it on YouTube and.

[Chloe Mao]

Just being like, I feel like Lady Gaga is going to be that version of the excitement around her. She's a headliner this year and I think it's going to dictate what her tour could look like. Christian is going and he's very excited about Gaga. He's a little monster.

[Cho Benadi]

Oh, yeah. I think for the little monsters, it's gonna be like, it's gonna be mega. And I just can only imagine what Gaga's gonna wear. Like, the costume out, the costume changes, and it's just gonna be a big, huge performance. And it is kind of an amazing setting. There isn't anything like it. The sunsets in the desert are just like, you know.

[Chloe Mao]

Wait, so Choma, you are coming to New York next week for the Ralph Lauren show?

[Cho Benadi]

Yeah, I'm really excited. You know, I love coming to New York and you know, there's nothing more New York or American than Ralph Lauren. So I'm kind of excited. I think it'd be fun. And then I get to see you and hang out with you.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God. I know. It's gonna be gangs back together again. We love an in person Choma visit.

[Cho Benadi]

I can't wait. I'm very excited. I'm just figuring out what to pack.

[Chloe Mao]

All right. Bye, dear. Good luck with you packing.

[Cho Benadi]

Thank you.

[Chloe Mao]

The run through will be back in just a moment.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Working at Vanity Fair, our entire lives revolve around press screenings, premieres, film festivals, Q&As, set visits, award ceremonies. Not that we're complaining, it's pretty great. But you know that feeling when you see a new film or show and you want to talk about it with.

[Chloe Mao]

Everyone immediately we feel that all the time.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yes, we sure do. I'm Richard Lawson. I'm David Canfield.

[Chloe Mao]

And I'm Rebecca Ford.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

On Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's flagship entertainment podcast, we discuss today's most exciting films and TV shows. David and I are fresh off attending the LA premiere last night. Break down the latest developments in the awards race. Gomez and Grande split the pop girly vote and catch up with Hollywood's biggest movers and shakers. Demi Moore, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Whether you're a casual viewer or an industry buff, this is the podcast for you. New episodes are published every Tuesday and Thursday. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chloe Mao]

And we're back with Brandon Jacobs Jenkins. Brandon, we are so excited to have you on the pod. We went on a group outing to Purpose last week, and it was really a delight for all of us involved.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Thank you, guys.

[Marlee Marius]

The crowd was so loud. They were laughing so loud.

[Chloe Mao]

They were extremely activated.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

When night you guys come? The Saturdays have been lit.

[Chloe Mao]

Really?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

We came on Thursday night.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Okay. Yeah. That's when they're.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah, but like, for 7:00pm I mean, people were ready to go.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. I'm happy to hear that, actually. I think laughter's great because it means people are listening.

[Marlee Marius]

Absolutely.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Marlee Marius]

And then that house, especially, like, it envelops you.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

The small. Yeah, it's really intimate. It's the smallest. It's the smallest Broadway house.

[Chloe Mao]

She rolled that right off.

[Marlee Marius]

Telling about the slides as well as the houses. Hey, it's the smallest playhouse.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

It's nothing for plays. You make no money, but, you know, you really get a bit of an experience.

[Marlee Marius]

Exactly. But it's a jewel box of a theater.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

That is such a phrase I like, need to retire. A jewel box of a theater.

[Chloe Mao]

Brandon, for the listener who has not seen Purpose, can you give us an elevator pitch description of what the show's about?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Sure, yeah. Purpose is a family drama, or I guess, comic drama, some people might say. And it centers on a black political family that has had dynastic ambitions. And it's set during the weekend when the oldest son, who is a. What's the word you would use? Like a politician who ran afoul of law and spent two years in prison dealing with that. He's returned home. And it's narrated by this youngest brother who's a bit of a recluse who works as a nature photographer. I don't know any family drama. It's like hilarity ensues. You know, it's like the youngest brother brings home a friend by accident named Aziza, who's his neighbor in Harlem, and she's the kind of catalyst that, you know. Wow. I'm doing a terrible job of summarizing that.

[Chloe Mao]

No, that's great. Every family drama needs that outside of Catalyst.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, exactly. My teacher used to say there's two kinds of plays. It's either people go on a trip or A Stranger Comes to Town. And this is definitely a Stranger Comes to town kind of play. Yeah.

[Marlee Marius]

And it's an amazing ensemble piece that follows in sort of a tradition, like, Appropriate did, which was, of course, the play that you had on Broadway last year.

[Chloe Mao]

Do you call it appropriate or appropriate?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I call it appropriate. But obviously the homonym is intentional. Yes. Yes, we refer to it as appropriate. Yeah.

[Marlee Marius]

But it both shows. Yeah. Fall in this sort of tradition of, like, American family dramas. Right. That, like, you know, famous examples by, like, August Wilson and Eugene O'Neill kind of. These kind of really sort of. You describe them in the context of Steppenwolf as, like, muscular. I think.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Muscular realism. Yeah, indeed. Ooh.

[Chloe Mao]

I've done that.

[Marlee Marius]

And I mean, I wonder where kind of your affection for that genre, that kind of family drama came from.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, you know, honestly, like, artistically, one of my most important early aha moments was reading the Glass Menagerie by Tennessee Williams, who really, I think, holds the crown for this kind of drama. I mean, I'd say the best one ever written is by Eugene O'Neill, but if you take together Cat on Hot Tin Roof, the Last Menagerie, and A Streetcar Named Desire, like, Williams wrote all those, and those are, to me, like, pinnacles of the form. And, in fact, I think this play, in some ways, is homaging a lot of them explicitly and not explicitly. And I remember, like, I was, like, home from college. I'd take my first playwriting class. I was, like, home, like, fall break at this little cafe. Like, took myself to a cafe by myself. Cause I was so artistic and, like, already then, just being a writer. And I remember sitting on this couch and reading this play that had been assigned and, like, not leaving until it was over and feeling, like, completely blown away. And to this day, I'm still incredibly sentimental about that play Glass Menagerie made it to.

[Chloe Mao]

Did you only buy one coffee?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I don't even know if I bought coffee. This is that. Yeah. Guys, we were talking about the aughts where you could do that. You know, there was about these rules about no laptops. Like, it was just free. It was the Wild west of coffee shops in Silver Spring, Maryland. But I'll never forget that. I've only had that a couple times with something where I started, and I wouldn't get up till I was done, basically. And that played on. It just spoke to me on a thousand levels.

[Chloe Mao]

What's the last thing you read that did that to you?

[Marlee Marius]

Well, I mean, I was gonna say. And I mean, I'm not blowing smoke, that when I was reading a version of the script for purpose in preparation for speaking to you, I was like. I was riveted. I was reading, like, a book.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Oh, my God. Like, I was like, this was so fun.

[Marlee Marius]

Like, I was like. I was responding to things. I was laughing out loud. The first time that Clawdeen refers to Naz is my weird son, I was like, hello. I mean, obviously, it makes sense later. But, like, I was. Yeah, I was cackling away. Otherwise, I'm like, I'm not reading.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, I love that. You also wrote, like, an early draft. Like, we did so much work. Maybe you didn't see the differences, but.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, I think I saw. I noticed some things that felt new. But, yeah, I would still. But, you know, obviously, a lot of it was the same.

[Chloe Mao]

But anyway, do you find that people who have seen different versions of your work notice the differences, or you don't want them to notice it?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Sometimes. I mean, first of all, people who, like, have seen early versions and come back are, to me, like, my favorite people. Like, you get the Platinum pass. Like, you are.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God. The Jesse Green Meakubba. I just read that yesterday.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

No comment. But that was a wild experience. Yeah, that was definitely wild, because I.

[Chloe Mao]

Think I've never read anything like that.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, my teacher in college talked about how I'm gonna go down this path. Cause it makes me sound like I'm comparing myself to Beckett, which I'm not. But it's very rare that that happens. But most famously. Oh, my God, let me stop saying this. I don't. People being like, brandon thinks he's Beckett, so we're gonna stop. But famously, Waiting for Godot, when it premiered in the States, got a horrific review from Brooks Atkinson at the time, who was, like, the leading Times creator. And then a week or two later, he was like, wait, I was totally wrong. This play is a genius. And that's why Waiting for Godot is like, Waiting for Godot, you know?

[Chloe Mao]

Wow.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

So I was, like, kind of shook that I had, like, a much humbler, you know, experience of it. But the truth is, like, you know, I do think it costs a lot for a critic to say they're wrong.

[Marlee Marius]

And they should be doing it more often.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

You would think, right? You would think. I did, sort of. Again, I haven't. I don't really read criticism. I just. I only get, like, the secondary gossip from my review.

[Chloe Mao]

You really don't read.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I really don't.

[Chloe Mao]

That's amazing.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I haven't read a review in, like, five or six plays.

[Chloe Mao]

God, that is such good.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Because you wind up getting what you need anyway from your friends and colleagues and your agents.

[Chloe Mao]

It's like osmosis.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. I don't want, like, someone's language in my. It's like a bully. Like, I don't want that haunting me for life, you know?

[Marlee Marius]

That's interesting. Have you had the experience of people who saw this show in its original run in Chicago and have now seen it more?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

A ton. A ton. Like, there's a friend of mine who just emailed me, said her mom who saw it in Chicago is taken. Flown herself by herself to New York today to see it. I'm, like, so touched by that.

[Marlee Marius]

That's amazing.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Shout out to Nicole Scott. But, you know, for whatever reason, and the truth is, like, Chicago is an incredible theater town. I mean, they are really. They are super possessive of their theater because they are really in competition with New York in terms of who does it best. And they really rep their theaters and their actors and their audience, you know, very hard. And so I've had a lot of folks fly out to see the show, and they've been, thank God, saying they feel like there's improvement there or it's as good. That's all you want. The worst thing you want someone being like, you missed your exit. Like, it was so much better in.

[Chloe Mao]

Chicago than that jewel box of a theater ruined it.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Stay away from jewel boxes. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Chloe Mao]

Has the play changed a lot in the last 10 years? Cause I think it's amazing that you received the commission for purpose, what, a decade ago?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, it's hilarious because, yes, a decade ago, but tbh, like, or to be. Sorry, I'm not typing, to be honest. You know, I didn't really start writing it till, like, three years ago. So, you know, but, you know, you let ideas percolate, you know, And I think what I started, you know, Steppenwolf approached me. People who don't know Steppenwolf is, like, the premier acting theater, probably, honestly, I would say, in the world, to be honest, like, they're an actor. Actor driven. They're actor ensemble based or theater maker based, but really actors run it. And they are very specific when they come to you. They're like, we're not just asking you how to play. You have to think about these actors. We have. And they're all like Cadillacs, you know? So I would. I remember, like, I got that when I got the offer. I, like, go to their website, and I'm, like, scrolling through, and I saw three faces who are still on the show, which is crazy. That was Lana Rainez, John Michael Hill, and. And Glenn Davis, who I actually seen in New York in various plays and always been, like, this person, you know? And so the first thing you're thinking is, like, okay, these three actors, what do I want them to do? And I was like, well, I want them to be in a family. I know that much. I want them to play siblings. Happens that in real life, they're very close. And then I was like, and I want to set in Chicago. And that's kind of all I had. And then you just let your subconscious percolate long enough. Suddenly these relationships suggest themselves and the family and the context. And so it's kind of magic. It's like a miracle.

[Marlee Marius]

And all three of those performers are so good.

[Chloe Mao]

Incred.

[Marlee Marius]

I mean, everyone on the show is so good. Like, it's a really good group.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

But, like, let me shout out Alana Arenas.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, my God.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Who, like, people did. I mean, I literally was like, I just want people to meet Alana Arenas.

[Marlee Marius]

Absolutely. She plays Morgan in the show, and she has some of the most incredible scenes. We were dying.

[Chloe Mao]

She really.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

She's a genius.

[Chloe Mao]

You gave her some good material to work with. I mean, she's amazing, but she does it.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

She does her own. I mean, I feel like I was tail. You know, it feels like I'm tailoring. Honestly, I'm saying that because I'm in vogue. I know what tailoring is. Do I? But the idea that. That I could write something to someone's strengths and really try to pull out their talents. And she was just so obvious because her powers are magic. What she does with words and the way that she can just play the rhythm of a scene. And by the way, she does a different performance every night.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, really?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. It's always the same character, but she'll place things in different places or she'll have an emotional break in a different moment, and it'll ripple through the whole play, and it'll force the other actors to make different choices. And that's like. That takes incredible technique and Talent to pull that off. She's incredible.

[Marlee Marius]

Makes it so alive.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

That's what it is. Yeah, exactly. That's what you want, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Marlee Marius]

I mean, one sort of theme of the show certainly is kind of. There's an interesting kind of, like, intergenerational kind of dynamic happening where you have this sort of poter familiar Sonny Jasper, played by Harry Lennox, who's kind of thinking about his legacy and kind of thinking about the sort of sacrifices that he's made in his life for his family and to kind of like, you know, for, you know, the sake of racial equity, kind of think he's quite an important man and kind of thinking about sort of what his life's purpose has been. And then you have his sons who are part of, of course, like, the other generation, kind of thinking about where they fit into that, thinking about kind of what impact they can make. And I wonder where that kind of idea came from. Like, what sort of was inspiring that sort of concept for you.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, two things. I mean, one that's less. Well, there's a personal one, and then there's like, the artistic one, which is I wanted to write a play about a black dynastic family which really doesn't exist in this culture. Like, we don't have, like, Rockefeller. We don't have a name that we associ with, like, generations of influence, wealth and power. But we do kind of have them. But the story's kind of often the same shape, which is within one generation, all that kind of cultural capital is squandered somehow. And I wanted to sort of see if I could make drama out of that. And I also had this moment with. I mean, my parents were both just in some weird way, lucky to have been born when they were born because it was in that window of, like, the LBJ diversity act. So they were incredibly intelligent people. But, like, schools opened up and education opened up in a way. Like, my mother's one of the first black women to graduate from Harvard Law School. You know, my dad was, like, randomly, literally became a dentist because he was walking down the streets of Baltimore, and a guy in a doorway of a dental school said, hey, you come over here. And not joking. This is the story of how my dad became a dentist for 40 years. Wow. Anyway, so. But I also had this moment where I was like, are my parents traumatized by history? You know, they both grew up during segregation. They were both from the south, grew up in the South. And I get to grow up in this moment where I have all this amazing language around, like, fragility and, like, you know, and they didn't have that. They just lived their lives. And I'm like, how much of that trauma expressed itself in their kind of, you know, they're sitting very experimental about the lives they had to live because no one had done that before. And I wanted to kind of put that on stage somehow. Like, think about, like, how a person could be this extraordinary warrior for social justice and actually, in some ways, in his lifetime have seen the fruits of his labors play out in society. And yet domestically, there's, like, a cost to that that no one registers or talks about or explores. And there must be some emotional story there about how the kids can or can't engage that legacy. Would it let them have or not have as to. I don't know. So that stuff all kind of was swimming around.

[Chloe Mao]

Your mom, as you said, was a lawyer and a businesswoman. Is there any of her in Claudine?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, yes, Claudine's a lawyer, but I was just talking about this with someone in the car because she's seeing the show on Saturday. And, you know, I think, like, the worst thing that could ever happen is your child becomes a writer. Like, I remember early on, like, in my early plays that were just, like, crazy and had nothing to do with anything. My mom says she. She would go to them and she had to see them twice. Cause the first time she'd be frozen in her seat, waiting to be embarrassed. Yeah. Waiting for the family secrets to be spilled. And I'm like, sorry, in my play about minstrelsy, whatever, she's waiting for me to talk about her mom. And then she'd relax and be able to see the show. So I'm waiting to see what she sees in this one. But that's funny. The answer is kind of no. My mother was actually quite. I think Claudine is a conservative leaning woman in the sense that she's, like, religious. She is. Her social form of organization is the church. You know, my mother was, like, very radical. She was a single mom. You know, she was an entrepreneur. She kind of, like, did whatever she wanted to do. And she definitely had no interest in sort of subscribing to patriarchal systems or, like, things that kind of emphasize that. Like, she really taught me what feminism was when I was truly a toddler. And so the answer is no. And yet there is something about having parents who are lawyers. And, like, I have a lot of friends whose parents are lawyers, especially your mom. If you have a mom that's a lawyer, it's a very specific mom energy and. Yeah. So in some ways, yes, but also mostly no.

[Marlee Marius]

Cause Claudia is like low key terrifying. Especially towards the end.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. Terrifying in that way. But she definitely is like knows the law, you know, and she could talk you.

[Marlee Marius]

Knows how to.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, she just knows how to use language in a way that lawyers.

[Chloe Mao]

And it's powerful.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

It's powerful. Yeah, it's really powerful.

[Chloe Mao]

Lawyers can. They can litigate at home.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yes. And I think you raise really verbal kids too. I think. Yeah. You're always just talked out of everything you want in your life with your mom tricking you into thinking that what you want is not what you want.

[Marlee Marius]

Difficulty.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

This is not therapy podcast. Right. This is definitely a.

[Chloe Mao]

Every podcast is therapy podcast.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Fashion. My mom likes fashion. That's not true.

[Chloe Mao]

I had an aha moment after when I was reading about the play that that many Chicagoans identified Jesse Jackson. Jesse Jackson Jr. Which we don't have to address or not address. But I thought that was interesting. Didn't. I just was like, oh, interesting characters.

[Marlee Marius]

Would totally miss that. Like people who don't really know that wouldn't know.

[Chloe Mao]

Once I read it, I was like, oh, good call. But it didn't. In the viewing. It did not occur to me. Yeah.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of families being referenced. I think for whatever reason, the Jacksons are like the most legible to people. Yeah. But it's definitely disappointing if you come looking for like the story of the Jacksons. Cause it definitely takes a turn.

[Chloe Mao]

It's just not Omari.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, no, it's definitely not. I mean, it should end a cabaret, but, you know, I think. Yeah. In Chicago. That was super vivid.

[Marlee Marius]

Yes.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

You know, and I really. And you had people coming. I had people coming up to me after the show being like, how did you know? And I'm like, I really see a beekeeper. Well, I also was like, guys, I just like read a bunch of articles about a bunch of families and whatever showed up, showed up in the show. So. But it's. But you know, what a remarkable human he was. I don't know. And still is.

[Chloe Mao]

And are there other namesake families you.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I don't wanna be sued. Okay. So I'm going to be chill about that and Nicolette will follow up, I'm sure in an email. But you know, but Chicago, it should be said, is like a black political town. And like, if you want to be in politics and black, you have to go to Chicago. I mean, that's the Obama story. Well, what was interesting about Kamala is that she was a different iteration of that story. Cause she was new money, West Coast. She was mixed race, but she went to Howard and she was aka so some of the signifiers were there, but some of them weren't. But Chicago is like. Is. It's Chicago and D.C. and I grew up in D.C. and my family was, like, I call it Congressional Black Caucus adjacent. So I have a lot of. My mother for a while, worked in politics. A lot of my, like, godbrothers and sisters growing up were from political families. So, you know, and of course, the Jacksons were at the center of that storm in some ways, especially from, like, the 70s, 80s, early 90s. Yeah.

[Marlee Marius]

Given that, like, personal context for you around, like, those sorts of families in D.C. and sort of the similarities, I guess, between the kinds of, like, black families that you see in D.C. and in Chicago, like, were you, in terms of, like, the set design, like, this kind of, like, amazing house that serves as the set for the show? Like, were you kind of weighing in on what that should kind of look like, like, how to kind of telegraph that kind of black power wealth?

[Chloe Mao]

Like, how many props are written into this?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Lol. I mean, you know what's so funny about that is if you really do the research about these families, people love to describe their houses. Like, every profile is like, you know, it's like. So it's easy to kind of get that data, but. But this is kind of where I have to give it up to Ms. Phylicia Rashad, who, in her own way is an ascended. And she had a lot to say because she was in these houses, she knows these people. She's, you know, and so she really chose those colors. She was like, sourcing that art. She can tell you the story behind every choice so that she can tell you what each of those objects is saying about that family in a way that I was like, you. You must do what you want to do, Ms. Rashad.

[Chloe Mao]

You know, so we did all notice. We were very impressed with the photos.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Those are the best parts of the set. You mean the ones upstairs? Yeah, yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

Because we were like, is this AI?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

We were like, guys, I'm not going to tell you, but they're my favorite parts of the set. And you kind of can't even see them clearly unless you're looking for them. But. And there's, by the way, when the understudy goes on, they all change.

[Marlee Marius]

No way.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God.

[Marlee Marius]

Such magic.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

No, I know, I know. For those who. Yeah, I don't want to spoil it. But it's like Harry Lennox, who plays solid Jasper. There's all these incredible. They seem AI generated, but they're not, like, staged. Like, he's hanging out with Rosa Parks. A young version of him, shaking in. Okay, pan. Like, it's so great.

[Marlee Marius]

I also love that. I remember there was a part in the play where Morgan refers to the ugly statue.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Well, that's specific.

[Marlee Marius]

Of course, you mentioned Phylicia Rashad, who's the amazing director of this production. And I know that in many ways she was kind of like a dream collaborator and kind of like a dream person to be attached to. This.

[Chloe Mao]

A dream for all of us.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, my God.

[Chloe Mao]

My commencement speaker.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

No kidding. Huge.

[Marlee Marius]

I mean, when I interviewed her on the phone, I was losing my mind. But anyway, can you tell us a bit about, like, what you've kind of learned working with her? Because, I mean, something that you talked to me about was how, you know, she has, you know, of course, an amazing sort of background in the theater, working with all these amazing artists, and has, like, you know, this kind of really incredible rare experience. But, yeah, what have. That has kind of, like, stuck with you in this process.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. I mean, the thing about Ms. Felicia, Rashad, we call her Ms. Felicia.

[Marlee Marius]

Yes.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I feel weird calling her anything other than that. So we kept calling her Ms. Felicia. You know, she's like a deeply, deeply gracious person. And I always call her a good witch. Like, she has, like, good witch energy, because she is. She's just seen so much and met so many people that you can feel that she has designed, and she just knows how to be in the world in a different way. And she's not a diva at all. I never saw her raise her voice. I never saw her have a fit. And she's very good at kind of getting to the emotional heart of a character. She's such a great reader that I feel like sometimes when you're making a play, you're waiting for everyone to catch up to you. Cause you're like, yeah, page 44. I was like, her mom died.

[Hilary Milnes]

Relax.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

That's why she's so angry. But, no, but social will be like, why is she eating a cucumber? And she'll be like, maybe she's eating cucumber because she's on a diet. Maybe she's on a diet because she's mad at her husband. She's able to zero in on detail and find the story in it. And as a writer, that inspires you. Cause you want to hide story everywhere. That's how you kind of get that texture, hopefully, of richness and fullness and these illusions of people. Because she's giving actors the opportunity to invest in their imaginations and dive into the real. You know, she would talk all the time about this idea of, like, the life of the play. She wants to get into the life of the play. She wants to make. She wants to get into the texture of the reality for these people. And that's just like, I never heard a director say that before.

[Marlee Marius]

Amazing.

[Chloe Mao]

I want to know about the costumes in the play. Cause I loved the Telfar sweatsuit.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yes, that's correct. I mean, Dede Ayte is, like, one of the first of all dated. She's so busy. Yeah. Because she's good, you guys. Like, she's on Broadway. She was, like, nominated twice last year in the same category. Teddy Ait is, like, one of the best costume designers out here. And she's so. And she works so much, but she's so rigorous, and she's so interested in, like, what. Similar to Ms. Felicia, like, how costume signifies character choice. Like, the idea that always is that, like, this person woke up this morning and chose to put this on. Why did they choose this? Was it for comfort? Are they scared of something? Are they cold? You know, and that all informs what actors are able to do.

[Chloe Mao]

You know, I ask my child that every day, right?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Are you scared?

[Chloe Mao]

Why are you wearing this again?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. So, I mean, daddy did such a great job. And, like, it's funny if you, like, were there through the previews, that jumpsuit changed, like, 15 times. Oh, really? He looked like a mafioso. For one of the shows. We were like, it's a no. Like, you know, it was really funny. And she's also interested in color stories. So she was constantly at war with this very warm set, that kind of, like, coppery color. And she was, like, so mad because she's like, well, I can't just have everybody in red. So she. She was so thoughtful and so detailed and really just, like, to the bitter end was like, just changing, changing things. So she's the best. I'm Jameelah Robinson, host of Food People.

[Chloe Mao]

On Food People, we talk about how.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Food and drink shape our society.

[Chloe Mao]

I talk to the luminaries making big.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Moves in the culinary industry, from chefs.

[Chloe Mao]

And entrepreneurs to celebrities and even activists.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

The combination between a school and a restaurant. The next generation of Ethiopian.

[Chloe Mao]

A lot more than food goes on in a kitchen. It's where you have your loudest arguments.

[Marlee Marius]

It's often where you have your loudest laughter.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I'm Italian, Mexican. I'm a comedian.

[Chloe Mao]

There's gonna be lots of opinions.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

So if you want to go deep on how food creates the world we live in, join me on Food People.

[Chloe Mao]

Food People is available on the podcast.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

App of your choice.

[Marlee Marius]

Quite a while ago, and so let us know if you don't agree with the statement anymore. You described theater as a safe space for all feelings, but especially ugly feelings.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yes, I still feel that way.

[Marlee Marius]

Okay, what does that mean to you? And why is theater kind of like the place for it?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, well, a lot of people have to trust each other to make theater happen. Like, you tend to show up in these big rooms with hundreds of chairs, and you don't really know those people. But you've all agreed to sit down and be quiet for the most part, right? You've all agreed to face in the same direction, and you've all agreed, hopefully, to try to have the best experience together.

[Chloe Mao]

You can not be on your phone, Right?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Totally. And people don't go to the theater to have a bad time. No one spends that money or that time. Everyone, actually. Even if they're the most critical, most bitter people, you know, they still want the game to work on them. That's always it at the heart of it. So in the theater, I'm always like, this is the safest space with all these other human beings to sit there and go, like, am I angry about society? And, like, if I'm angry, can I get through that anger? Is there another feeling beyond the anger? Cause I think we fear the sort of. Of bad feelings, you know? But actually, the whole point is that we are constantly moving through feelings, right? We're always. It's always about the collection of things that we feel that actually matter, as opposed to, like, that one moment. You were jealous.

[Marlee Marius]

Yeah.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, right. I think the theater's, like, our gem for that kind of thing.

[Marlee Marius]

Yeah, totally.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

And I wish that people. And it's so great to be in a space where, you know, when those lights come up, you can leave it all behind.

[Chloe Mao]

I have a pivot.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Please. Which is get me out of myself.

[Chloe Mao]

I want to hear about when you worked at the New York.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Okay. Oh, God.

[Chloe Mao]

Because. Is it true that you haven't been back in this building since you worked in the New Yorker? Or were you at Times Square?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I was at Times Square.

[Chloe Mao]

Okay.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, I was before I was pre the move.

[Chloe Mao]

Me too.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, no kidding. And I have not, for whatever reason, had the willpower to get me to visit. This should be one. I should actually just rip the bandaid off and go there right now. But for whatever reason, that was such an intense part of my 20s. I was there during, like, 2008. I don't know when you were there, but when the magazines were closing every week, it was a really intense moment. And I just don't necessarily want to go back.

[Marlee Marius]

That was right after college.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

It was right after. Yeah. Well, I did grad school for a year, and then I. Yeah, then I. So 2007. I was there from 2007. 2006.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah. That must have been, like, lucky era. Like gourmet.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

That's right. Yeah. I mean, I was at the very tail end of it. It was like, super. And then when the crash happened, I was there for like, oh, hiring freezes. Like, I have three people's jobs now, and I make $26,000 a year.

[Chloe Mao]

Do you ever miss working in an office? Like, what's your daily schedule?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, I mean, this is the last kind of office I worked in. I mean, I teach. I teach at Yale, so half of a year I'm commuting to Connecticut and I have an office there.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

And I have a home office. And there's times when I've had, like, a studio. I do like the commute because I do think it's like an essential part of letting something go and opening up my other half of my life. But I do miss it a little bit. Working media is so wild because you get news before everyone else gets the news.

[Chloe Mao]

That was true.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

And then you watch the world see the news, and then it's like a whole meta level of like. You're like a James Bond villain. Yeah. I remember when I told the story before, but I remember when Michael Jackson died and David Rebnick used to make these. He used to kind of make the rounds every afternoon where he would, like, walk the hall just to be a good boss and check on things. And I remember he passed my cubicle and I went. I was like, david, Michael Jackson just died. And he turned to me and he went, what? No, he didn't. I was like, no, Michael Jackson definitely just died. You know, Dan, like Dave Rodick. And I remember the look on his face. He, like, turned white. He, like, blanched. I could see the work he knew he had to do. Cause it was like 4pm or something in the middle of the day. He was like. He was like. He probably, like, break open an issue. I had no idea what was going on. But I remember him, like, turning white and his face getting really serious and him, like turning on a dime and Running back to his office.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, my God.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

And I was like, media. Like, I am like, the one who broke the news. Exactly. I broke the news of Michael Jackson's death to David Remnick and the world. And the world. It was so funny. But I do. I miss that stuff. And I miss, like, the nice thing about magazines is you get to see the thing you've been working on, like, happen regularly. You know, where's the play? I like. Like, takes me a year, right?

[Marlee Marius]

Yeah. This is. Things are going up every minute.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

It's like the churn. Yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

Kids are like that.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Kids. Yeah. But no one cares about my kids.

[Marlee Marius]

Good transition. Although, funny enough teing Marley up for the next question.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Wait, this is iconic.

[Chloe Mao]

Two icons with no boundaries in media.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Is that the name of the podcast? Two Icons with no boundaries in media.

[Chloe Mao]

Wow.

[Marlee Marius]

You guys. But, yes, when we spoke, your second daughter was, like, immediately on the way it sounded like. So now you're the father of two girls.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I am.

[Marlee Marius]

How is that going? And how did you land on the name Neon? Which is incredible.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Lol. Okay. It's wild. So we're like, six and a half weeks in.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

We have an incredible woman named Maria who helps us out, who's actually Indigo. Indigo's my oldest daughter, and it was her nanny from, like, age 2, 3. And now we're hitting reset on the clock, so we have support during the day. My husband had four weeks of paternity leave, and now he started back on Tuesdays. Now it's like, my turn.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, man.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

And, you know, toddlers. Toddlers. I'm talking about an infant. She's a newborn. They don't really care about you. Like, they don't really know what's going on. They don't know what night and day is. You know, they're like, she's a bean.

[Chloe Mao]

She's like a ferret.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

She's a larva, basically. And it's true. For, like, two months, your kid's just a larva. You know, they squirm. They don't have personality. They see when they want. And it's kind of hilarious because, you know, we're obviously two and through. Cause there's no whoopsies in our house. So everything is sort of like, for the last time. You know, I'm always like, oh, very sentimental. Cause, you know, we had to go during COVID and it was like, stick. Like, just shock in my life. Like, just jackknifed by that experience. In the best way, of course. It was, like, the most wonderful time of my Life, but you just don't know anything. And this time, I do know a little bit of stuff, so it's kind of relaxing, interesting. But also everything is kind of imbued with, like, wistfulness because, you know, kids are miracles. Like, babies are miracles. We're all miracles. It changes the way you think about every human being. I know if this is your experience, but you just sort of like, see, I remember feeling like I, like, peeked behind the curtain of life a little bit. I'm like, oh, that's what happens. So this.

[Chloe Mao]

What theater have you taken Indigo to?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

0 theater I've taken her to. Actually, I take her sometimes to the family matinees at the Joyce. So she's seen, like, dance shows? Cause it's short enough. Yeah, actually, I tried to take her to elf, and she literally walked out at intermission. I was like, this is my daughter.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, my God.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Literally, the lights came up at intermission. She literally said to me, do we have to stay? And I'm like, wait, this is literally children's musical, and you are telling me that you want to go home at intermission? Like, oh, my God, I'm too blue. But anyway. But to answer the question, age of neon, you know? So indigo was kind of like a whim and, like, a Covid whim. But that name, like, really landed for people. We thought it was, like, super risky, and people, like, love it. And we were like. When we knew we were having our second kid, we were like, oh, this is tough because we don't want to have a complex where, like, our youngest daughter has to grow with everyone being like, Jane, Indigo. So, yeah, she's like, Susan or whatever. Yeah. And so it really stressed us out because we could not figure out there's, like, not another indigo. And then we went through every other color, you know, and then. And we had this, like, the game of it was that, like, I came up with a long list, and then my husband whittles it down to, like, like, the short list of three, and then I would choose on the day of. And this too much?

[Chloe Mao]

No, it's great. What were the other two on the three?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Oh, well, I'll taste one of the ones that we did not go with.

[Chloe Mao]

That were long list.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

You're gonna do not. Wait. Y'all are gonna judge me no matter what I say?

[Chloe Mao]

No, we're gonna let through it.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

It was chaos. Okay. Cedar.

[Marlee Marius]

Okay. I don't hate it. Go on. Go on. Cedar.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Cool. Gold sequoia.

[Marlee Marius]

Okay. There's a theme.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

The faces you're making Are chilling to me. Okay. No one can see the faces you're making but me. Aurora. We liked Aurora.

[Chloe Mao]

We're very into Sleeping Beauty in my house right now.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

So very, very deep Aurora at the moment. Oh, Blaze.

[Marlee Marius]

Okay.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

These are fun. Yeah. We wanted things that. Yeah, for me, it was about the words that. What they made you see in your mind first. And I like that.

[Chloe Mao]

Neon's gonna be so cool in high school. It's gonna be a nightmare.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Or she'll be like. Or she would, like, curse. She's like a baby bookkeeper or something and she's just not into it. She changes her name to Brandy or something. I don't know what's gonna happen. But yeah, no, she's. So we chose Neon because it means in ancient Greek, it means something new. And we liked that. She would not. It's not. Indigo has like a lyrical thing happening with it. But neon is a different energy with the same color story. And so that was why we did that.

[Marlee Marius]

Loved it.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. We thought it made you think of lights. Absolutely.

[Marlee Marius]

They sound so good together. Broadway lights.

[Chloe Mao]

What's Indigo's vibe with Neon?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Oh, she's great. She's a great big sister already. Yeah. And we're relieved because we would hear horror stories. I have a very dear friend who's.

[Chloe Mao]

Like a child scared a dream.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Wait, wait. What's the age difference between yours?

[Chloe Mao]

22 months and a lifetime of pain?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Less than two years. Are they two girls?

[Chloe Mao]

Boy.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Girl. Oh, okay. You're gonna be okay. Very dear friend of mine, actually, Indigo's godmother is a family psychologist, and she broke it down for us. She's like, the thing you really want is a girl first, then you want a two year gap and then you want a boy. That's the only stable version of sibling. Everything else is a bit of a recipe for disaster. And so of course we were like, why aren't you girls? But four years has been good because she's. Cause Indigo has got an identity now. She's at school, so she doesn't feel like competing with her.

[Marlee Marius]

That's huge.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

She also thinks it's her baby, which is insane.

[Marlee Marius]

So cute.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

She's super. She's incredibly cute. Where are you?

[Chloe Mao]

Well, my daughter's turning three, and I was just introduced to the term three. Nager. Yeah.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

So you know, a child. This is. Parenting's full of lies, as I'm sure you know. Cause you probably had a childbirth experience. But one of them is that people say terrible twos, but actually it's terrible threes.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, no, she's so bossy. I mean, last night she was like, have this carrot. And I was like, okay, she'll just eat the whole carrot. Where'd the hair get from?

[Marlee Marius]

Exactly.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Who is teaching you to be this way? Yeah, it's crazy.

[Chloe Mao]

We're all so scared.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

No, totally. Your kid make you scared, you know, and I find that insane because you were just here changing her diaper. You know, you were wiping things out of her nether regions that she didn't know about, and she's gonna turn to you and be like, you're ruining my life. It's crazy feeling like you understand what family drama's about. Totally.

[Marlee Marius]

You know, it all comes back to family drama.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah, it does. Like, I get why people's moms were super resentful growing up. Cause, like, you just didn't respect them. You just did not understand what they did for you.

[Chloe Mao]

Brandon, I want to know about what you're wearing to the Met Gala because you are on the host committee. You are a host, and you will be tailored, I assume.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

I don't know what I'm wearing yet. I have a really amazing stylist who I brought on to help. Who's that right now is Ian Bradley, who is incredibly smart and so fun, and he dressed a very dear friend of mine, Lyla Neugebauer, for her film junkets, and she could not speak more highly of him. And she's not a fancy celebrity. And, you know, it's hard because I've had Silas, who are like, oh, you're a playwright, and then just now return my phone calls and take my money, and I'm like, what's happening right now?

[Marlee Marius]

Where'd you go?

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

What did I do to you? Yes. But, yes, I'm very excited. I don't really even know what to do with this event. But I also know Monica Miller, who's genius, whose book inspired the exhibit. I know her a little bit, and she. One of my first plays. She did a talk back with me. Yes. So I feel a little bit like I have this in.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Through her.

[Chloe Mao]

That's a good in.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

Yeah. My mindset is like, have fun. Yeah, exactly.

[Chloe Mao]

You know, Brandon, we are so happy you came. I wish we could stay here for much longer.

[Brandon Jacobs Jenkins]

So, all good? Well, thank you guys for having me. I hope this is useful.

[Marlee Marius]

Oh, my God. Thank you so much.

[Chloe Mao]

That's it for the show this week. We'll see you soon. The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Joanna Solotarov. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Mosley and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global audio.

[Cho Benadi]

Hi, it's Cho Manardi. If you're not on the Vogue app yet, what the hell are you doing? You can follow along with me and other editors as we talk about everything happening in fashion. Think you're already a fashion expert? Well, find out how your Runway IQ stacks up against the Vogue community with an all new Runway genius leaderboard. So download the Vogue app today and you'll never miss a moment.

[Marlee Marius]

From prx.