Celine Song on Materialists, Matchmaking, and Her Favorite Rom-coms

Summary

Episode Summary: "Celine Song on Materialists, Matchmaking, and Her Favorite Rom-coms"

Release Date: June 19, 2025
Podcast: The Run-Through with Vogue
Host(s): Chioma Nnadi and Chloe Mao
Guest: Celine Song

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1. Introduction to Materialist and Matchmaking

The episode kicks off with hosts Chloe Mao and Choma Nardi Shoma discussing the recently released film Materialist. Although Choma hasn't had the chance to watch it yet, Chloe enthusiastically shares her impressions, highlighting the film's stellar cast—Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal, and Chris Evans—and its engaging exploration of matchmaking and materialism in relationships.

Chloe Mao (00:53): "It just raises a lot of interesting questions about finding a match and what we value and what we are materialistic about and what we're not."

Choma expresses curiosity about the art of matchmaking, questioning the credentials required to excel in such a nuanced field.

Choma Nardi Shoma (01:54): "I wonder how one becomes a matchmaker. Like, what are the credentials?"

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2. Insights from Celine Song's Experience as a Matchmaker

The conversation transitions to Celine Song's personal journey as a matchmaker, which served as the inspiration for Materialist. Celine recounts her struggles as a playwright in New York City, detailing how economic challenges led her to an unexpected career in matchmaking. Her passion for understanding human intimacy and psychology profoundly influenced the film's narrative.

Celine Song (22:07): "Love is this amazing ancient mystery... There is no solution for it and there is no math for it."

She delves into the inherent tension between the material efforts people invest in finding love—such as grooming, therapy, and even plastic surgery—and the elusive nature of genuine affection. Celine emphasizes that, despite the calculated approaches in the dating market, love remains an unpredictable and unquantifiable phenomenon.

Celine Song (23:33): "For all for what? Yeah, all for this very ancient, completely mysterious feeling where you look at another person in the face and you say, I think that I'm gonna grow old with you."

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3. Fashion Highlights and Industry News

The episode then shifts focus to current fashion news. Hosts discuss Francesco Rizzo's impactful tenure at Marnie, celebrating his artistic contributions and unique, free-spirited approach that invigorated the Milan fashion scene. They lament his departure but anticipate his continued influence elsewhere in the industry.

Choma Nardi Shoma (03:26): "He did things his own way with such confidence."

Chloe praises Rizzo's aesthetic, likening it to "the most glamorous, chic version of Ms. Frizzle," and highlights his successful collaborations, including one with Carhartt.

Chloe Mao (03:55): "Everything I want to wear. And his collaboration with Carhartt, Leah Faye Cooper, actually, today is wearing the Carhartt by Marnie skirt."

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4. London's Fashion Scene and Iconic Events

Choma shares her vibrant experiences from London Fashion Week, specifically highlighting Martine Rose’s unconventional show held at a job center—a nod to community and street market culture. The event featured eclectic fashion pieces and fostered a lively, inclusive atmosphere. She also touches upon attending Beyoncé's concert, describing the electrifying performances and iconic fashion choices.

Choma Nardi Shoma (04:53): "Martine likes to do things differently... It was so fun and great and I wanted to wear all of it."

The discussion includes notable appearances at high-profile weddings, such as Huma Abedin and Alex Soros's ceremony, showcasing exquisite designer gowns and meaningful fashion choices that honor personal and familial legacies.

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5. Men's Fashion and High-Profile Style Choices

The hosts explore recent trends in men's fashion, spotlighting Brad Pitt's bold outfits styled by Taylor McNeil. While opinions are divided on these experimental looks, Chloe admires Pitt's commitment to his stylist's vision.

Chloe Mao (14:39): "I was intrigued this weekend by Brad Pitt's outfits that he was wearing... I respect commitment to a look."

They debate the practicality and appropriateness of certain trends, such as Jonathan Bailey's flip-flop ensemble on the red carpet, questioning its place in formal settings.

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6. In-Depth Interview with Celine Song

The latter part of the episode features an extensive interview with Celine Song, delving deeper into her creative process and the thematic elements of Materialist. Celine discusses her admiration for classic romantic comedies and how they influenced her storytelling approach.

Celine Song (30:08): "I'm not merchandise, I'm a person."

She elaborates on the film's exploration of love's unpredictability versus the structured nature of the dating market, emphasizing that true love defies algorithms and materialistic endeavors.

Celine also shares her experiences in casting, highlighting her instant connection with Dakota Johnson and Chris Evans, which she likens to a form of matchmaking within the filmmaking process itself.

Celine Song (33:47): "When I met Dakota, I was like, oh, I think she is Lucy. I just think she is."

Further, she reflects on gender dynamics within the dating landscape, advocating for a balanced portrayal that acknowledges how both men and women are affected by societal pressures in love and relationships.

Celine Song (42:09): "Men are not impervious to the way that it completely dehumanizes us too."

Celine concludes by discussing her favorite romantic comedies, including You've Got Mail, When Harry Met Sally, Notting Hill, Romantic Holiday, and Broadcast News, articulating how these films shaped her vision for Materialist.

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7. Closing Remarks and Future Trends

As the episode wraps up, Arden Fanning Andrews revisits the resurgence of 80s opulence in current fashion trends, showcasing unique vintage pieces discovered on eBay. This segment underscores the cyclical nature of fashion and the importance of archival inspiration in trend forecasting.

Arden Fanning Andrews (17:13): "Sometimes trend forecasting doesn't require something that's going to be produced in the future. Sometimes you can tap into the past and tap into the archive as well."

Chloe and Choma conclude with light-hearted banter, preparing listeners for future episodes packed with more insider insights and exclusive conversations from the world of Vogue.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chloe Mao (00:53): "It just raises a lot of interesting questions about finding a match and what we value and what we are materialistic about and what we're not."
• Celine Song (22:07): "Love is this amazing ancient mystery... There is no solution for it and there is no math for it."
• Choma Nardi Shoma (03:26): "He did things his own way with such confidence."
• Celine Song (30:08): "I'm not merchandise, I'm a person."
• Celine Song (42:09): "Men are not impervious to the way that it completely dehumanizes us too."

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This episode offers a rich tapestry of discussions, blending the intricate world of matchmaking and love with the ever-evolving landscape of fashion. Celine Song's insights provide a profound understanding of the interplay between materialism and authentic human connections, all while listeners are treated to the latest in haute couture and celebrity style.

Transcript

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

This episode of the Run through is brought to you by ebay. I'm Arden Fanning Andrews, Vogue's beauty editor at large. Everyone's talking about tassels right now. And that's the moment that I end up typing it into ebay. I found the perfect vintage triple chain belt with golden tassels. And it just looks so elegant, timeless. And it's on the way in the mail to me, thanks to ebay.

[Chloe Mao]

This is the Run Through. I'm Chloe Mao.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

And I'm Choma Nardi Shoma.

[Chloe Mao]

Have you seen Materialist yet?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I haven't. I haven't. It's on my to watch list. Tell me everything about it though. I'm dying to see it.

[Chloe Mao]

I feel like everyone saw it this weekend when it came out.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Well, I can't watch it till August 15th. Cause it's not out here until then. Oh, wow. So don't give me too many spoiler alerts, but go ahead.

[Chloe Mao]

I. I think you'll really enjoy it. I had such a good time watching it. Not least because the three leads are so attractive and delightful. Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal, and Chris Evans. And I thought it just raises a lot of interesting questions about finding a match and what we value and what we are materialistic about and what we're not. And I am excited for you to watch it, Choma. And I'm very excited for you to hear our conversation with Sel. Lisa Macabasco and myself spoke to Celine about how she was once a matchmaker and that inspired this movie.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

No way.

[Chloe Mao]

Yes. It's really fun story and sort of how much she learned about people from that. Which definitely comes through in the film. And there's definitely, to me, it feels like a 2025 successor to nor Ephron movies. Like it's a very much a New York film. And I'm excited for you to see it.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I wonder how one becomes a matchmaker. Like, what are the credentials? I hope she gets into it.

[Chloe Mao]

Celine was very funny. She was like, I had to find a job to make money. Cause I was a playwright in New York. And you needed experience to be a barista, to be a hostess at a restaurant. And I met someone at a party who was a matchmaker. And it was the only thing that they were like, sure, start tomorrow.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Hilarious.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah. I want to know all your thoughts on Francesco Rizzo.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I mean, yeah, it's sort of. For me, it wasn't one I saw coming. I think Francesco has done an amazing job at Mani. Really brought an artistic sensibility and a sense of Community. His shows in Milan were so wide ranging and freeform, and he kind of brought a different energy. He brought a more bohemian energy to Milan, which often feels much more polished than what he did. And he had this much more kind of freewheeling energy. He would often stage shows that were totally unconventional, that felt a little bit more like being part of a performance art piece. He would invite the audience to dress in a certain way. His community extended far beyond Milan. I mean, he had such a great connection to New York. In fact, he worked a lot with Babak Rabboy, who is Telfar's right hand. And he had such a link to the music world, too. I mean, that wonderful collaboration that he did with Erykah Badu.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, we love that.

[Celine]

Yeah.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

He did things his own way with such confidence. And I'll be sad to see him go from Marnie, but I'm sure he'll show up somewhere else. There's obviously huge musical chairs happening at the moment, and this is just one. And maybe it felt like he. Everything he had to say, he'd been there for a fair few years, and I think he'd really made it his own. And maybe it was, like, time for. Maybe it's just time for a new voice there.

[Chloe Mao]

Well, I'm very sad. His aesthetic is so kooky and freewheeling. To me, it's like the most glamorous, chic version of Ms. Frizzle. It's like a kooky art teacher. It's like everything I want to wear. And his collaboration with Carhartt, Leah Faye Cooper, actually, today is wearing the Carhartt by Marnie skirt. And we were all saying, like, everyone really coveted those pieces.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

It's that time again when we have to start collecting. We have to start of, like, stockpiling designer pieces.

[Chloe Mao]

Panic buying. It is sort of that last gasp for a lot of designers. It's, you know, I mean, I obviously went wild with Dre's panic buys when he announced he was stepping down. But, yeah, this is your Marnie moment, folks. What's the word in London this week? What's happening?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

It was a really fun weekend in London. The weather is actually superb and has been since March. I don't know what's happening here, but we have this eternal summer moment, which I'm really living for and on the.

[Chloe Mao]

Complete opposite to New York. But I'm thrilled to hear it.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I've heard it is gorgeous, everybody. London is really magical at the moment. And a particularly magical moment happened on Saturday, which was my first Martine Rose show. She showed. Yeah, her shows are always basically a big, kind of a big family affair. And I love the people watching. We sent a street style photographer to document all of the looks and it was, it was just like a who's who of cool London. You had Julian Isaacs, the artist and Liz Johnson, artur photographer. Her family, her kids, her best friend, you know, all these photographers like Johnny Default whose shot are cover. It was like really, really cool crowd. And oh, and of course Naina Cherry that the iconic Nina Cherry came through. And Martine likes to do things differently. So she held her show at a job center. I don't know if you have those in in America, but a job center is basically a place where if you're, if you're out of work or on the dole, as we say in the uk, you go and you fight. There'll be a. You find a job. So it's like, it's a very kind of like working class kind of gathering, community space. And she invited a bunch of different vendors to have a, to host a market so that you could shop before you attended the show. Which was really fun because I think it shone a light on all market and street market culture is so big in the uk. I mean I've talked a lot about having grown up going to Portobello market. And so she invited all these vendors to come and sell their wares, which I thought was really, really swee. Cause she's always about sharing the space and then, you know, it's always a big party. There were drinks before, there were drinks after. And then the show itself was so kind of sexy and fun. And she's usually known for an oversized silhouette, but this felt a lot more kind of like 80s sexy, tight to the body, slinky. You know, the hair was insane. She had this, these crazy long wigs with quietly fried ends, you know, that were popular in the 80s. So it just was like a boost of adrenaline going to her show. It was so fun and great and I wanted to wear all of it. And then later on I went to see Beyonce, which was really fun.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh my God, Choma. What a day.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Yeah, well, I actually didn't make it that night because. Because Will call was closed and I had too much fun at Martine to make it for the show. So I ended up going on Monday night. But it was, it was her last night in London. It was like a cloudless sky. There were pink, it was like a pink sunset. And obviously she, at one point she's like singing on a horseshoe Floating above the stadium. It was like very dreamy. And to see everybody dressed in the western wear with those cowboy hats and people screaming at the top of their lungs, you just forget how much of a. She's just a. You know, she's a force. She's a four.

[Chloe Mao]

What was your cowboy Carter outfit?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I came straight from the office, so I kind of. I think I just stood out like a sore thumb because I. I had on like slacks and a shirt. I was so like, not dressed for the moment because actually her show starts quite early here in London. You have to be there by. By 7:30 and she's already, you know, we got there at 7:30 and she'd already started.

[Celine]

Oh, wow.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

And for me, one of the highlights was, was seeing Blue Ivy because she's just come into her own. She's like. Everybody's talking about her as if she's like the next big pop star. And I think she could be. Cause she's like, she knows how to move. She has presence. She has presence. And if I think about the Renaissance tour versus now and how she's developed and then obviously there's a touching moment when Rumi comes on stage and it's just like so touching to know that she's on the road with her family singing these amazing songs. And the outfits changes were totally iconic. One of my favorite looks was Estella McCartney. She always like tips her hat to the designers of the place that she's performing in. So there were loads of Brits in the show and there were these amazing fringed chaps that were Stella McCartney and they were silver. And just in seeing her stomp down the stage was incredible. And she also wore this pretty amazing Vivienne Westwood corset corseted look that had all of this western embroidery on the front. I'm kind of excited to see what phase three of this trilogy will look like because she's kind of outdone herself again.

[Chloe Mao]

Choma. I feel like it's probably even trickled across the pond. But there has been great consternation and Skandal in the Vogue offices around the first look images of the Carolyn Bessette Kennedy John.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I've heard it's also been rumbling around our office. People are not happy.

[Chloe Mao]

People are not happy. So Ryan Murphy in his American Love Story series. And Ryan Murphy is no stranger to fashion favorites. I mean, he did the Johnny Versace one and he obviously the Babe Haley of it all and the Swans and the Lee Radzwill, But Carolyn Bassett Kennedy and JFK Jr. And their story, which is what has just started filming this week in New York, is going to get scrutiny like I don't think anyone has seen before. And immediately the comments on this were so savage. It was all very. A lot of fashion insiders commenting. Gabrielle Kariva Johnson, Lauren Santo Domingo. People were calling it like Tamu Camelot. Like people were very upset with how cheap the cloth when it is doable to get, you know, vintage Narciso or Calvin Klein collection from the 90s. People are very upset about the shade of blonde that Sarah Pidgeon, who's the actress playing Carolyn Bissette, has. They have dyed her hair. And we actually, with the help of Virginia Smith, got Brad Johns on the phone. Who was Carolyn? No way. Bessette Kennedy's hairdresser, who all the fashion girls went to him back in the day and he was responsible for the signature CBK blonde. And he. We got him on the phone yesterday. He's now a retired glassblower in Los Angeles. And he.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Hers was much more glossy, right? It was just more glossy and more. And had more.

[Chloe Mao]

It was more yellow.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Yeah. This is much more her.

[Chloe Mao]

This is Gwen Stefani.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Yeah. It feels much more platinum, doesn't it?

[Chloe Mao]

Yes. And so we spoke to Virginia and Kate Young and Brad and all these people who went to him and tried to get her hair color. And the girls are not happy. But Margot did a really fun piece with Brad interviewing him about it, which was great. So we are all eager to see how that will evolve. I actually have faith in Ryan Murphy and I think they always do a great job with costumes. So I feel like it must be evolving and that this was just sort of the first look as a placeholder. But they got a lot of work to do because the fashionistas are not a group you want to mess with. Huma Abedin, the veteran political strategist, longtime Hillary Clinton aide de camp, married Alex Soros, who is the director of the Soros Foundation. And the two of them sort of. It is this Democratic power players super merger. And the guest list of the wedding definitely reflected that covering.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Oh yes, tell me everything. I was looking at all the images. I mean, what a well attended wedding. I mean, everybody, Bill Clinton, Kamala Harris, I mean, what. Sienna Miller, it was insane.

[Chloe Mao]

Jennifer Lawrence, first public outing since her second baby.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Wow.

[Chloe Mao]

It was at the Soros family home in Watermill. And Huma's son Jordan gave apparently the most touching speech. Anna Wintour, who is a great friend of Huma, was as. She loves to be helpful with the wedding dresses. Huma wore a beautiful Givenchy by Sarah Burton dress that was a sort of bateau neckline with my favorite part about it was this sort of twisted belt that was sewn on that I thought was really elegant. And then there was amazing embroidery on and the train of the skirt that was sort of embroidery of olive trees and olive branches. Because that was something that was very important to Huma's father who is no longer with us. And so that was bringing sort of him into the day. So I. And then Erdem made a beautiful lace high necked multi sort of priest button dress for her Friday family ceremony that I also thought was really beautiful.

[Celine]

Yeah.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

And she also wore a sil. I think she wore a silver marchesa dress.

[Chloe Mao]

She did the party dress.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Yeah. So lots of amazing fashion too.

[Chloe Mao]

And it just felt really joyous and beautiful and resplendent despite quite chilly rainy weather.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Can't believe it's chilly.

[Chloe Mao]

Choma. Have people in the UK caught F1 fever?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I think it's simmering around me, but I haven't quite tapped into the fever just yet. But have you?

[Chloe Mao]

No, but I am very. I was intrigued this weekend by Brad Pitt's outfits that he was wearing. Uh, he's been working with stylist Taylor McNeil who styles Kendrick Lamar and Timothee Chalamet. And we are all divided on whether we think it's working for Brad. Um, like the Will Echeveria off the Runway maybe isn't exactly what I would do for Brad. But you know what? I respect commitment to a look. And this weekend Brad, his girlfriend Inez and Bradley Cooper and Gigi Hadid went on a double date and Brad Pitt was wearing this like almost sort of taffeta y parachute top that I need to look what it was. But the story. Anna Cofola wrote it up on Saturday morning and it did bonkers numbers. People were extremely interested in Bradley Squared date night.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I mean, it's a pretty epic. It's a pretty epic double date. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, Shoma, I'm very invested in. And I know that your team is actually writing something up about this right now, so clearly they are too. Jonathan Bailey did a press tour wearing the row flip flops. And I just don't feel like a red carpet is the place for men's toes.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

No.

[Chloe Mao]

I don't know why it's really upset me.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

I'm adverse to men's feet in general, so I. That's a hard pass for me.

[Chloe Mao]

And you know what we were saying this morning? Two rows do not make a right. Just because something's the road doesn't mean you need to wear it or endorse it. Like, I mean, and Jonathan can really.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Do no wrong, like off duty. I mean, right now in London. Although I don't think flip flops in a city work because you're just basically sweeping the floor with your feet.

[Chloe Mao]

Yes, that's a lot of discussion here too, is, should you wear flip flops on the subway?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Oh, no. I mean, I spent my first year in New York wearing flip flops and it was an absolute horror show. And never again. I mean, Javianas were having a moment.

[Chloe Mao]

And it was like, no choma. Enjoy the sun.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Thank you.

[Chloe Mao]

The run through will be back in a moment.

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

The other day I, like went on a real ebay spree. There's this huge push for like 80s opulence and 80s sort of glamour and we're going to see that returning. And so I was already kind of tapped into that just from my gorgeous ebay watch list. And I found a really beautiful Chloe blazer from the 80s and a really great Miu Miu kilt, these great Dior boots. And I'm combining them all together. Sometimes trend forecasting doesn't require something that's going to be like, produced in the future. Sometimes you can like tap into the past and tap into the archive as well. That's what makes ebay a fun place to actually discover things, because you're not going in with something so specific in mind, but you have an idea of what you're interested in or what you're excited about or, you know, just truly trend forecasting. And so one thing that I would say people should be watching out for is like, very opulent, 80s style.

[Celine]

Hi, you guys.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, hi.

[Celine]

Hello.

[Chloe Mao]

How are you? Where are you?

[Celine]

I'm in New York City. People always ask, like, where are you? I'm like, oh, I'm in New York City.

[Chloe Mao]

Both of your films are such New York City love letters. Was that always something that you had in mind? That this was a city that inspired you to depict on film, or did that sort of happen because of the plots of the stories?

[Celine]

Well, I think that I'm very inspired by the city that I live in because I live here and I'm in love with the city. So I feel like it's like it's always such a pleasure to get to make something about and in a place that you love. So I think that really is at the heart of it. But yes, I think that for both of these movies, it was as a result of those stories and then the characters that the stories are about. Because of how connected I feel to these characters, I think that they always were. And they were born as New Yorkers, right?

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Celine]

And also New York transplant New Yorkers too.

[Chloe Mao]

I was very excited to find out that you were a matchmaker at one moment in your life and that that was some inspiration for materialists. I have to say we were talking after we saw the movie, me and our producers, that you either maybe wrote this 10 years ago or right now. Because it feels like we are in sort of a post dating app moment. A bit like people have sort of want something more personal and they actually. I think there is actually a market now for boutique matchmaking. And also obviously that was the case 10 years ago, but in the last decade it's become obviously very online. And so I was curious what that moment was like for you in your life and then when you translated that into this film.

[Celine]

Well, that is very interesting. I didn't know about that little gap of the kind of like an in person dating being a little bit not in style, but I feel like it was a matchmaker around 10 years ago.

[Chloe Mao]

Wow. How did that happen?

[Celine]

Well, I didn't have a day job that I could get, so it was a playwright at the time. And I can't really pay rent. You can't really pay rent in New York City being a playwright, which is a bit of a dilemma because New York City is like where you're able to be a playwright. So I was looking for a day job. And because New York City is a city of dreams and all of us are here pursuing our night jobs that everybody had a great day job. And so day job market is very competitive.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Interesting.

[Celine]

You know, so whenever trying to. I was trying to see if I could be a barista. And like you needed like 10 years of experience as a barista to be a barista in. You know, and you were to be a bartender. You're like, well, you can't be a bartender unless you have 10 years of experience a bartender. And I couldn't even get a job as retail because they needed like eight years experience. So I was sort of in this situation where I couldn't find a day job to save my life. And at a party I went into somebody whose job was to be a matchmaker and I asked more questions and then I applied for that job. And then I got the job and I worked on it for six months and I Only worked there for six months because, honestly, because I enjoyed it too much that I wasn't writing.

[Chloe Mao]

That's so much self discipline. To say that I'm taking a new passion is taking me away from the true one.

[Celine]

Oh, yeah. Like this new passion. Because part of it is like, you know, for me as a filmmaker and as an artist generally, too, but, like, I'm really obsessed with people, right? I'm really obsessed with intimacy and people and psychology. Like, that's my favorite drug. That's my. That's the best drug I have. So I think in that way, I was just getting my fill being a matchmaker because I learned more about people in those six months than I did in any other period of my life. Yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

What was. What were some of your takeaways that you still think about sort of types of individuals?

[Celine]

I mean, I would just say there was a single people in New York City, right, who are usually working and usually they just are showing up because they want to make an investment on their dating life. And usually it's a result of not having invested enough time, they feel and energy and resources into dating before. So this is. It would usually be like an attempt to improve their dating life significantly by spending some money on it. That would kind of be the approach and. Which makes total sense because everything in life, it sort of works that way where you put more resources into it. This was the real inspiration for why I wanted to make this movie Materialist is that unfortunately, there is one domain, there's one human domain in all of human life, all of the world, where spending more money, putting more effort, being smarter, using algorithms, none of those things can end up in a quote, unquote, a good result or a great result or any result, which is domain of love, right? And I was just seeing the wild contradiction between the way that when I'm talking to someone about who they're looking for versus what I actually know what love is. And love is this amazing ancient mystery. Love is this amazing thing where there is no solution for it and there is no math for it.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

It.

[Celine]

There's nothing you can do about it. And this has been true forever. And I think that in order to pursue and find love, there is so much effort, material effort, practical effort, so many. So much resources and so many promises and numbers and specs, right? The stats, all of those things are all there. And, you know, people go to the gym and get a therapist. You know, like people get, of course, Botox, every kind of surgery there is so that they can improve their chance of Finding love. They want to improve their material reality so that they're more valuable in the marketplace of dating. And for all for what? Yeah, all for this very ancient, completely mysterious feeling where you look at another person in the face and you say, I think that I'm gonna grow old with you. So I think that tension between all the efforts, material efforts that we put into finding love and then play the game of love and the actual love, I think that that tension was really what inspired me to make this movie.

[Chloe Mao]

What I really loved about the movie was how it really interrogated our approach to relationships and what we value in them and how we do this, as it's called. I believe it's matchmaker math. Did you find that that was something people were actually interested in knowing about? And is that sort of the math of what makes two people a match? Is that something that stayed with you and that you sort of took forward when you were thinking about even casting people?

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Is.

[Chloe Mao]

Is that. Has that affected other decisions in your life?

[Celine]

Well, I think that to me, it's like when it comes to dating and expertise in dating, because it's a very different thing. And Lucy says this in the film. Lucy is Dakota Johnson's character, and she says this in the film where she, oh, I'm an expert in dating. I'm not an expert in love. Right. I do think that I learned a lot about the dating world, right. Because at the time that I was a matchmaker, I was already married, so. And I've never been on an app, never been in a dating app. So for me, I don't really know the ins and outs of what it is like to be single. I met my husband when I was 24.

[Chloe Mao]

Wow.

[Celine]

So in that way. So I think I learned so much about how the dating world works, but from the point of view of a matchmaker. But what that means, though, is like. It's kind of like being from the. Like, understanding finance from the point of view of a stockbroker. Right. Or like somebody who's in charge of investment portfolio, where I'm kind of getting to see the way that all my clients, and also by extension, everybody in the world, kind of land when it comes to the marketplace of data. So because of that, I think that the way that the dating market works is so defined by what we see and we watch and the way that so much of what we see in the magazines and the newspaper and then the. Eventually the TV and eventually on our phones, all of those things have built us and what the dating market really is. So I think that I can tell you what would make somebody valuable or not valuable and what make that person worth this and worth less than this and more than this given anybody I talk to in some way. Right. But it doesn't necessarily mean that higher value, you have more. You get to have love. It's absolutely untrue. So the project of dating is one thing. Expertise in dating is one thing. When it comes to love, I believe that love makes fools of all of us. That's what they say. Right. And I think that's absolutely true.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I also wanted to ask about the trailer. I know when it was a big.

[Chloe Mao]

Hit in the Vogue. In the Vogue Slack channels.

[Celine]

I'm so happy. Oh, my gosh.

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

We're very excited.

[Celine]

It's very exciting. I'm so happy.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I know when that happened, there was some chatter on Twitter about the voiceover and kind of people saying it felt like a throwback, like 90s style. Since you don't really see that in trailers anymore. Was that deliberate or was that. I assume.

[Celine]

Yeah, of course. I mean, marketing. Marketing. Marketing is deliberate. Of course. We should be. But I think that it has so much to do with. With an amazing relationship that I have with a 24. The truth is that, like, I love working with a 24. And I respect them so much because they actually are so interested in the filmmaker and what the filmmaker believes about their own film. They really genuinely believe that the filmmaker knows their film best, which seems like it should be obvious, but it is quite rare for the filmmaker to be believed to be the expert on the film that she made. So I think the truth is that, like, I was talking about the references for the film that are those films in the 90s and even, I mean, sometimes as old as Billy Wilder. Right. So I'm thinking about or like, you know, when you're talking about, like, you know, like Sabrina or something. You know what I mean? Or the Apartment, Like, I feel like those that even that era. And of course, like, you know, the broadcast news that era, there's so many films and of course, all the Nora Ephrons. Right. That you've got mail, the Harry Met Sally. So those are the kind of films that I was talking to them about when it comes to the project of this movie of like, well, yes, of course it's a romantic comedy and it's a romantic drama, and it's all of those things. And it has a way that we're just going to deal with love for two hours. You're gonna walk into the movie theater, you're gonna sit down and we're gonna deal with and be in love and experience love and talk about love for two hours. But as a result, we're also going to get to talk about something that we, as a current day audience or modern people, we are able to, we are interested in something that we want to talk about. Right. So I think that to me is something that I've been talking to a 24 and about throughout the making of the film.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

So then, like, tonally, the Heart and Soul was always rooted in these movies from the past.

[Celine]

Well, I mean, I always talk about it more as like it's in the lineage of those films or something like that. Right. Because I mean, like you can also talk about all the Victorian romance. I mean, this lineage goes back as far as the Pride and Prejudice, the novel, Right. In Jane Austen. Right. The first line of Pride and Prejudice is probably the most materialist line ever.

[Chloe Mao]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.

[Celine]

So good. Perfect. It's perfect. But that's how the book begins. And the thing is, in my film, our character says, I'm not merchandise, I'm a person.

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

Right?

[Celine]

And in the Jane Austen novels, it's always about the woman at the center of those books who is saying exactly that. And then even though that is what they're saying, there is a man who loves her, right? That's the beautiful fantasy of those novels. It's always about that. And I think that that feeling, of course, has changed quite a bit from the Jane Austen times and that women can now make a living now women can have independence, financial independence, but there are still so many ways that kind of Morris, that kind of approach to love and marriage is still very alive today. And that's also true about so many of those Victorian romances. And eventually even the movies that I'm talking about, you've Got Mail, is about the way that her business is going to be crushed by the very, very progress. Right. But it's part of the changing New York City.

[Chloe Mao]

Right.

[Celine]

And they also now are connecting over the Internet, which is at the time was such a massive change in the way we communicate.

[Chloe Mao]

The same with Shop around the Corner. I mean, the Lubitsch is, which it's based on, is I think, one of my favorite movies too.

[Celine]

Oh, it's so incredible.

[Chloe Mao]

But you're right that it's about these very important but materialist themes, which I think you handle so beautifully. I wonder how you found your leads for this because they are so perfect for their roles, and they're obviously so important. It's such a pivotal love triangle. How. How did you match make?

[Celine]

Yeah. Well, I feel like it is, like, matchmaking, right? But it's a. But it has to be a love match in every way. Right? When I met Dakota, I feel like we were talking. We're just having a general meeting. We're just having a conversation. And at some point, it just occurred to me really early in the conversation, I was like, oh, I think she's Lucy. I just think she is. I don't believe in love at first sight, but I do believe in love in first conversation. And I think, similarly, I really fell in love with the idea of Dakota as Lucy and the same thing with Chris. When I met him as a person, when I met him as a man, I was, like, really shocked by just how humble and deep he was as a person and as an actor. And I think that I was walking away from that conversation feeling like, oh, man. Can you believe it? I think I found my John. Oh, my God, it's Chris. Can you believe it? And when it came to Pedro, it was like, in a revelation, but it was very like, oh, I didn't know he was right there kind of revelation, because he and I were friends for. For a while. For a long while. And I think that I wasn't really thinking about him for my movie for this role. I was just having a really wonderful social time. We were just hanging out, and we were talking about something. We're talking about love. And at some point, I think that I realized that in that conversation, it was a discovery as well, that, like, oh, my God, it is so surprising. But he's Harry. All three of them understood the fundamental story, right? Because. Exactly. Because they're actors. So much of their beautiful work and process and their passion and something that they love doing, which is acting. All of those things are so quick to be packaged and turned into merchandise.

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

I like ebay for one of a kind items, things that feel limited edition or collections that can't be found in stores. And with the ebay authenticity guarantee, I know that when it arrives, it's real. It is a piece that is coming from the designer's collection, the designer's archive. One of the biggest conversation points for some of the parties that I'll go to during Fashion Week are the pieces that I'm getting off of ebay. Everyone's a little bit intrigued and excited whenever they hear that you were able to find something on this digital treasure hunt.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You seem particularly drawn to love triangles, not only romantically, but also emotionally. And so what fascinates you, fascinates you about those dynamics?

[Celine]

Well, I think that, you know, the fundamental thing about the stories that I love are it's about a person who is at the center of it, who is faced with choices. And my thing is always my philosophy around that. And it's. By the way, it's the most fundamental form of drama. A person who makes a decision, you know, a person who makes choices, and also a person who throughout the film, throughout the story, changes so beautifully and dramatically that they make a different choice. They would have in the beginning of the film. It's the most fundamental form of drama. What really draws me to it is also that it's like it's this woman at the center of it who is making a decision for herself and then the life that she wants to live. Right. And I think that's what's really the thing that I feel so connected to is in, like, wow, she has so much authority and power. The thing that I believe about choices is that there is none. There's only the most inevitable thing. The choice that you're going to make at the end of the film is always going to be inevitable because it's the only choice that you could possibly make, given that this is who you are.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Do you have a favorite love triangle?

[Celine]

I mean, I think Broadcast news has a great one. Don't you think that's a great one? That one's a great one. Well, I think it's also a great one because it is, again, not about, wow, which guy is better or hotter. Right. It's so much more about what she believes about herself, too.

[Chloe Mao]

In our office, we were very excited by the fact that your husband Justin had written Challengers, which is a famous love triangle and similar time to past lives. We were like, they're the champions of love triangles.

[Celine]

Oh, my Lord.

[Chloe Mao]

Is that something you guys discuss? Is that. Do you sort of.

[Celine]

No.

[Chloe Mao]

No.

[Celine]

Well, I think. I think the. I think Challengers is a love triangle, and I think it's actually more of a love triangle than materialists even.

[Chloe Mao]

I also am very curious about how you plan your red carpet outfits, because we were big fans of your Loewe safety pin, for one example, and just all of your amazing suiting during the Past Lives press run. And so I'm wondering, is that going to be a theme that's continued sort of sharp suiting for materialists, or are you going to go a different direction?

[Celine]

So my stylist's name is Brit Theodora. So I think it's something that I know that I've been sort of, like, kind of discovering because it's not natural for me to be putting on, you know, clothes and standing in front of photographers. And also, like, you know, like, I feel like I'm always like, yeah, I'm a 54 Korean woman with boobs. So it's kind of like. It's like. It's like, what can I wear? You know, like, it's like.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

It's not. I'm just.

[Celine]

I just don't think the things that might be wonderful and perfect for. For people and beautiful and really cool and people on runways, it's not always for me. So it's always about, like, I think, finding my own style. Right. It's always about, like, something that makes me feel like me. Sometimes I would put on things in fitting and I would think it's so cool, but I would just know that it's not me. And. Yeah. And also I'm a writer and a film director, too, so I think some of it has to do with, like, really trying to discover what. What feels like myself. And still, of course, really cool and glamorous and get to be in. I guess I feel so lucky that I get to be in beautiful clothes, but I think that is still a thing of like. Yeah, but what can I pull off?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You know, you mentioned you've got Mail earlier, and I wanted to see if you could rank your top five favorite rom coms.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

Oh.

[Celine]

I certainly do not want it to be ranked.

[Choma Nardi Shoma]

That's okay.

[Celine]

Yeah. Okay. You've got mail. Okay.

[Chloe Mao]

Yes.

[Celine]

When Harry Met Sally. I love Notting Hill. It's Notting Hill. Incredible. Notting Hill's amazing Roman Holiday.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Celine]

So good. And Broadcast News. Didn't they say five? Yeah, perfect. They say four.

[Chloe Mao]

No, that's great.

[Celine]

Perfect. I love it.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Those are great.

[Chloe Mao]

I would pick some of those, too. You've Got Mail is the personal top for me. Caviar is a garnish.

[Celine]

Oh, yeah. It's a top, top, top. Creme de la creme, as they say.

[Chloe Mao]

What would you ask Nora Ephron about filmmaking if she were around today?

[Celine]

Oh, my God. Every piece of writing that she. She does, even outside of her incredible, just flawless scripts, her essays, everything, everything just makes me feel like it's not one thing. It's like, I don't want to spend, like, like, weeks with her. Like, I want to, like, move in and, like, hang out with her. The thing that I would sort of ask is, like, oh, you know what? I think I would want to ask her about love. It's like, as I was saying, I think that because love makes fools of all of us and none of us have answers to anything, what I would really love is to talk to somebody who feels like the person who knows about love the most and see if she's also lost, you know, Like, I want to know. It's like, well, how do you feel about it, really? Like, what are you. Where are you at? What do you think love really is? I just feel like that conversation is going to be like, it's for the Smithsonian. Like, I want to, you know, I want to print it and give it. To give it to humanity, just so that we know, like, what Nora Ephron thought about love. Really?

[Chloe Mao]

Seline, I'm just curious because I can't stop thinking about this. I feel completely out of the loop. But I didn't know that heightening surgery was a thing. I thought that that was like a sci fi moment in Materialist. And afterward everyone was like, no, no, that's a real thing. How did that become a plot point for you?

[Celine]

Well, it sounds like it's out of a Cronenberg movie, doesn't it? Yeah, totally. You know, totally. But that's amazing is that it's like, I think that I. I mean, I just read about it the way that one reads about things, but it's like, I just read about it on like New York Times feature on it, and I was really fascinated by it. I also love the idea that it's the. The only plastic surgery that is driven by men. And men are the most people to get it. They're the first to get it, which makes total sense. And I think that it was just such an important thing to talk about because, like, think about the things that we're doing to our material being our bodies, right? For this desire to be valuable, I think that that just felt so important. And also I wanted the men. I wanted to have a really fair depiction of men, too, because the dating market, this market we're talking about, this thing that crushes all of us, it of course, crushes women differently and more deeply in so many ways, but it does not spare men, right? So, of course, you know, romantic comedy, this film, romance films, it's always going to be thought of as chick flicks or it might be dismissed as something that's just for women. But the truth is that love and relationships and marriage, these things affect all of us, right? Touch all of us. And men are not impervious to the way that it completely dehumanizes us too. Right.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Celine]

So, you know, when you think about, like, how, like, you guys read about how Tinder is going to. At a height, do you want this? They have a new feature, like a height confirmation. No, they. No, they want to height. A limit that you can set when you search. I know. It's horrendous.

[Chloe Mao]

That's exactly.

[Celine]

And I think that the thing is, like, I want it to be depicted so evenly in terms of gender, specifically in heterosexual dating, in straight dating. I feel like I wanted the genders to be thought of as a. In a fair way where I'm like, well, it's absolutely not true that men are not touched by this. Like, men are not screwed over by it. You know, in fact, men are just at the mercy of the dating market as the. The women. Right.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Celine]

And in that way, materialist has to be for them too, you know?

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah.

[Celine]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mao]

All right, well, thank you so, so much, Selena.

[Celine]

This is great. Thank you so much.

[Chloe Mao]

All right, that's it for the show. See you next week. The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex De Palma, and Joanna Solotarov. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Moseley, and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Karaoke is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global audio.

[Arden Fanning Andrews]

The other day, I, like, went on a real ebay spree. There's this huge push for, like, 80s opulence and 80s sort of glamour, and we're going to see that returning. And so I was already kind of tapped into that just from my gorgeous ebay watch list. And I found a really beautiful Chloe blazer from the 80s and a really great Miu Miu kilt, these great Dior boots. And I'm combining them all together. Sometimes trend forecasting doesn't require something that's gonna be, like, produced in the future. Sometimes you can, like, tap into the past and tap into the archive as well. That's what makes ebay a fun place to actually discover things, because you're not going in with something so specific in mind, but you have an idea of what you're interested in or what you're excited about or, you know, just truly trend forecasting. And so one thing that I would say people should be watching out for is, like, very opulent 80s style from PRX.