Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on Why Book Bans Don’t Work and Other Reflections

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Run-Through with Vogue
Episode: Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on Why Book Bans Don’t Work and Other Reflections
Release Date: February 27, 2025

The Run-Through with Vogue offers an insightful and engaging episode featuring acclaimed author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Hosted by Vogue’s Chioma Nnadi and Chloe Mel, the episode delves into Adichie’s latest works, her personal experiences, and her thoughts on current socio-political issues, particularly book bans. This summary captures the key discussions, notable quotes, and the overall flow of the conversation, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

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1. Introduction and Hosts’ Dialogue (00:00 - 16:55)

The episode begins with hosts Chloe Mel and Chioma Nnadi sharing their excitement about interviewing Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. They reminisce about their personal interactions with Adichie, highlighting Chioma’s emotional encounter where she “burst into tears” upon meeting the author, reflecting Adichie’s profound impact (00:27 - 01:43).

Notable Quotes:

• Choma Nnadi (01:20): “I think that experience you articulated in such a beautiful way in this book helped me understand my family better. And I think that's such a powerful thing.”

The hosts also discuss Adichie’s involvement with Vogue, including her essay in the March issue titled "The Story of My First Love," and Adichie’s role as a mother balancing her literary career.

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2. Fashion Week Highlights (02:20 - 16:55)

Chioma provides an extensive overview of the recent London Fashion Week, highlighting standout designers such as S.S. Daly, Duara Elaine, and Erdem. She describes innovative presentations, including Tolu Koka's studio recreation and the star-studded finale by Burberry at the Tate Britain, emphasizing the blend of traditional British style with modern twists.

Notable Quotes:

• Choma Nnadi (05:24): “I love the way Maria Grazia likes women. You can tell when a designer likes women. It’s so important.”
• Choma Nnadi (07:17): “Naomi Campbell walked. You had Chrissy Hemingway. It was like Karen Elson, who looked heavenly.”

The discussion transitions into a brief mention of other fashion events and award shows, setting the stage for the main interview.

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3. Interview with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (17:01 - 44:15)

3.1 Revisiting First Love and Personal Tragedy (17:01 - 23:28)

Adichie opens up about her essay “The Story of My First Love,” exploring her first relationship and its tragic end. She discusses the emotional depth of revisiting such a personal experience and the impact it had on her understanding of love and grief.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (17:20): “I think memory then turns things around and suddenly there's a kind of nostalgia for something that will never be.”
• Adichie (23:28): “I wrote this novel knowing I was writing a novel after my mother died. It was my mother that unlocked the door for me.”

3.2 Balancing Motherhood and Writing (23:05 - 26:20)

The conversation shifts to Adichie’s experience as a mother and how it influences her writing. She candidly discusses the challenges of balancing maternal love with her passion for fiction, revealing that motherhood has enriched her emotional depth and understanding as a writer.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (24:15): “Having children has given me a new plane of understanding... It's made me a different writer.”
• Adichie (26:00): “I make it happen. It has to happen.”

3.3 Navigating Creative Blocks and Reconnection (26:20 - 30:38)

Adichie shares her struggle with writer’s block during her pregnancy and how the loss of her mother played a pivotal role in rekindling her creative spark. She emphasizes the therapeutic aspect of writing and the importance of reconnecting with one's true self.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (27:21): “It was like being shut out of yourself, because the truest self that I have is a self that writes fiction.”
• Adichie (30:38): “I think there's also this desire to capture the modern multiplicity of the African experience.”

3.4 Embracing Personal Style and Professional Identity (30:40 - 35:25)

Adichie reflects on her journey towards embracing her personal style, influenced by her Nigerian upbringing and her mother's emphasis on self-presentation. She discusses the challenges of maintaining her identity in the American fashion landscape and her efforts to support Nigerian and African designers.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (32:24): “I care about appearance because I was raised by my mother. She made it almost a moral imperative.”
• Adichie (34:18): “Nigeria has so much talent. There's so much.”

3.5 Thoughts on Raising Twins and Individuality (35:58 - 40:14)

The discussion moves to Adichie’s experiences raising twin boys, navigating their individuality while fostering a strong sibling bond. She highlights the intricacies of parenting twins and the importance of allowing each child to express their uniqueness.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (38:04): “I want to keep them really close, but also respect their individuality.”
• Adichie (39:43): “This is their first couplehood.”

3.6 Perspectives on Book Bans and Literary Freedom (40:14 - 42:14)

Adichie addresses the pressing issue of book bans, sharing her firm stance that bans are ineffective and ultimately futile against the resilience of literature and the human spirit. She conveys optimism that literature will continue to thrive despite attempts to suppress it.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (40:45): “Book bans don’t work. Literature will triumph.”
• Adichie (42:14): “You cannot kill the human spirit and the imagination.”

3.7 Closing Remarks and Personal Anecdotes (42:14 - 44:15)

In the concluding segment, Adichie and the hosts share light-hearted moments, including a humorous anecdote about a cooking accident that left Chloe Mel with a finger injury. The conversation wraps up with mutual well-wishes and reflections on balancing professional and personal lives.

Notable Quotes:

• Adichie (43:07): “If we can end with that like to do everything at once. And we, you know, I think women are really doing their best and that's okay.”

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4. Production and Credits (44:15 - 45:37)

The episode concludes with acknowledgments of the production team behind the podcast, including producers, engineers, and executive producers. A brief advertisement for eBay’s authenticated fashion items is seamlessly integrated, emphasizing the platform’s role in providing vintage and rare fashion finds.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Run-Through with Vogue masterfully blends discussions on fashion, personal growth, and socio-political issues through the lens of Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s experiences and insights. From her journey as a writer and mother to her unwavering stance against book bans, Adichie offers a compelling narrative that resonates with a broad audience. The hosts facilitate a rich conversation, punctuated with poignant quotes and genuine anecdotes, making it a must-listen for fans of literature, fashion, and inspirational storytelling.

Transcript

[Chloe Sharma]

This episode of the Run through is.

[Choma Nardi]

Brought to you by eBay. EBay.

[Chloe Sharma]

It's the place to fall in love with new pre loved vintage and rare fashion over and over again. Your favorite designers expertly authenticated.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah, ebay.

[Chloe Sharma]

Things people love.

[Chloe Mel]

This is the Run Through. I'm Chloe Mel.

[Choma Nardi]

And I'm Choma Nardi.

[Chloe Mel]

Choma, I am so excited for you to hear today's interview. Our books and cultures are Chloe Sharma and I got to speak with Chimamamonda Ngozi Adichie.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

In anticipation of her new novel, Dream.

[Chloe Mel]

Count, which has been so hotly anticipated, Chloe edited Chimamanda's beautiful piece in the March issue, and they loved working together. And Choma, you're a Chimamanda fan? No.

[Choma Nardi]

Yes, I am a huge Chimamanda fan. In fact, when I met her at an event, I burst into tears in front of her because it was, like, really moving. She has a very calm, wise, almost like you're in the presence of like an oracle with her because she just has this such a regal presence. Like, it's totally enthralling. So I just basically told her that the book that she wrote called Half of a Yellow Sun, I've read. I haven't read her new book, but I've read almost all of her books and it's about the civil war in Nigeria, the Abe war. And I just told her, made me understand my father because I. My dad wouldn't talk about the civil war.

[Chloe Mel]

Wow.

[Choma Nardi]

So there was a side of him that I just, you know, that was, I guess, locked away. And in that moment, I just. I just burst into tears.

[Chloe Mel]

Was she comforting?

[Choma Nardi]

She was super comforting. She held my hand. We were going to get coffee. Like, I think she probably offered coffee because I was like, literally, like in a puddle. But yeah, like, I think as far as, like, celebrity interactions go, that might have been the most embarrassing slash, like, sweet and amazing. Amazing, because, like, yeah, I think I. I sort of realized as I was saying it, like, wow. Like, this experience that you articulated in such. You sort of, like, described in such a beautiful way in this book helped me understand my family better. And I think that's, like, such a powerful thing.

[Chloe Mel]

I'm so glad you guys had that experience.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah, it was. It was. It was really great. So I'm so excited to hear about the conversation that you and Chloe had with Chimamanda. I read the short story and obviously, in the space of I don't know how many words, is it like 2000? Very short story. She just talks about her first love and it's just so powerful and paints.

[Chloe Mel]

Such a vivid picture of a place and time.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah. It was just so evocative and I can't wait for people to read the story. It's so great. I'm so thrilled that you guys managed to persuade her to write something and something so personal. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just fascinated by her. I mean, I realized that she just had twin boys.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

I know.

[Chloe Mel]

No one knew that until this Guardian interview last weekend. She has twin babies and a nine year old daughter. And I really related to the way she's spoken about motherhood and both mourning her own mother's death and coming reconciling the impact of motherhood on her own work. You know, she said in one interview that I could probably have written two novels had I not had my child, which I found so striking and refreshing to hear someone admit that.

[Choma Nardi]

Well, yeah, I mean it's like people don't acknowledge the fact that like motherhood is a full time job. It's just crazy. We can't overstate that.

[Chloe Mel]

Let's hear Choma about your London Fashion Week.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah, it was really fun. It was. It sort of kicked off with S.S. daly, who's a wonderful. Primarily a menswear designer who also has backing from Harry Styles. So I think everyone's always excited for his shows. And it was a really fabulous kickoff to the week on Thursday. And then there were like a few really amazing standouts of the week. I thought Duara Elaine, who's famously dressed Rihanna and many others did a fantastic show. And there were also a couple of really stand up presentations which I was excited about.

[Chloe Mel]

Give us an example.

[Choma Nardi]

One is Tolu Koka who basically recreated her studio in the show space and then had kind of like a band outside. So you had the show, the atelier that she'd completely. She's brought all of her team and she set up this like basically you saw what her studio looked like and she had the clothes in there, inspiration boards. It was almost like, like peeling back the curtain on the process. And then on the outside, so you imagine a box in the middle that was a studio and then on the outside she had like this, this band playing kind of like, I think she's influenced by like Church Sunday, church style. And so she had a kind of an organ player and it was really, it was really well done. I think it's hard to make impact with presentations. You know, I think that and a lot of young designers don't always have the resources to do a show. And sometimes it doesn't make sense for them. And I think she made a really good case for it. Another name everybody's talking about, Talia Burr.

[Chloe Mel]

Ooh, I don't know who that is.

[Choma Nardi]

She's a young designer who's been. She hasn't done a show as yet and she's been doing more, like, appointments. And she did a fabulous lookbook. A lot of her kind of twisted stripes is like twisted stripes of her kind of like her signature. Ooh, we like twisted stripes. Yes. And then, of course, Erdem, who showed at the British Museum and collaborated with an artist on these really beautiful painterly watercolor prints.

[Chloe Mel]

Yeah, they almost looked hand painted. I know there are prints, but it.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Was so visceral looking.

[Choma Nardi]

The collection itself was so textured and, like, tactile. There were so many different. Like, it was such a textured and rich collection. And there were lots of amazing knits. I loved all the kind of, like, floral knits that had, like, threads, kind of trailing. Simone Rochach showed on the same day. I loved her ribbon sort of trailing ribbon dresses. And she had such a fabulous cast. And then on the Monday, of course, it was like a fashion week. Finished off with a real bang. Burberry took over the Tate Britain and had these huge drapes going the length of the museum and this, like, rich, raw blue carpet. And it was very much like an exploration of English eccentricity and that kind of, like English born of the manor kind of Saltburn vision of British style.

[Chloe Mel]

But make it now with major cameos.

[Choma Nardi]

Celeb cameos. A major cameo. I mean, obviously Leslie Manville has to get shirt. Richard E. Grant carrying an umbrella that I wish I had to take home now. Lots of, like, plaids, brocade suits, lots of great outerwear, like these leather parkas that I was obsessed with. And then, yeah, I mean, Naomi Campbell walked. You had Christy Humme. It was like Karen Elson, who looked heavenly. Lila. It was a really epic casting. Epic front row. I mean, Lauryn Hill showed up with a scarf.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Oh, my God.

[Chloe Mel]

I saw that on your Instagram story and on the Vogue app.

[Choma Nardi]

And she was so amazing because she had, like, this little fan. Because it was actually quite a warm, muggy evening. It's not very cold here in the uk. And she had a little handheld fan in that she was, like, using the entire time because she was really swaddled in all of these very thick woolen plaids. But anything for the look. She looked incredible. And she sat next to La Roche. Who else was there? I mean, it was a really star studded event. Orlando Bloom, you know, I mean, London doesn't have as many of the bigger shows, so Burberry always feels like this is the epic finale. And so that was really fun. And then obviously woke up and saw that Dochi opened D Squared, which I thought was such a timely move for them because.

[Chloe Mel]

Amazing.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Yeah, I know.

[Choma Nardi]

Like, how incredible to have the star of the moment open your show. And I love that. They also had, I think it was an anniversary social. They introduced some collaborators into the mix. They had Vachera, who's. Who's a New York brand that I adore. So they, they did some collaboration. So they invited some younger designers into the process. I thought it was very cool. I can't remember the last time we were like raving about a D Squared show. So I thought it was really fun. What else?

[Chloe Mel]

Choma, you're not in Milan, but what else have you seen from Milan that you were interested in?

[Choma Nardi]

I mean, we saw, we saw Gucci that the Ancora red was obviously Sabato's signature, and we saw the entire room turn green. And it was a studio showing. I thought it was a very kind of respectful continuation of, of the sort of Gucci codes and major White Lotus.

[Chloe Mel]

Stars on the Runway or not on the Runway, actually. Yes, in one case, but very. A lot of front row white Lotus moments. Alessandra Nivola, who plays the young son Parker Posey, was at Gucci. There's some other stars that are gonna be trickling out through Milan and Paris. Hannah actually wrote a fun story about that. And then as you were saying at Burberry, Jason Isaacs, who plays the aggrieved Southern financier father on the show, walked in the Burberry show.

[Choma Nardi]

I have been too busy between Fashion Week and BAFTA to watch any episode, so I'm saving all of my White Lotus episodes. But I'm dying.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

That's so smart.

[Chloe Mel]

Cause then you get to watch them in a clump. And I am really. It's so sad to be done. I've become so spoiled by binge watching.

[Choma Nardi]

I know, I know. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna get the popcorn out and one Sunday afternoon and just watch like the entire.

[Chloe Mel]

Well, it's very good this season and everyone here is talking about it and all the different threads there where some of the vogue.com obsessions are. Amylou Wood's teeth. Yeah.

[Choma Nardi]

Flying the flag for the uk. We love characterful teeth.

[Chloe Mel]

Whether or not Walton Goggins is an attractive man, very, very divisive in our Gen Z Gen millennial divide. And also whether or not girls trips are always destined for failure.

[Choma Nardi]

What do people think of the fashion so far?

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

The fashion.

[Chloe Mel]

We did a story with the costume designer and it does. It feels very on brand and on trend with. With sort of Thailand rich, rich bohemian vacation dressing. But what we're really talking about is the oversaturation of White Lotus collaborations. They really took a page out of the wicked handbook. And it seems like everyone and their mother is doing a White Lotus collaboration. Banana Republic to away luggage. Yeah, we're gonna actually. We're having Emma Spector try out all of the different White Lotus collaborations.

[Choma Nardi]

Oh, my goodness. Excited for that. Send me the link when it goes live.

[Chloe Mel]

The SAG Awards were last Sunday. The indie spirits were on Saturday. This week is the Brit Awards, the Cesar Awards, and as the ultimate end to the award season marathon, the Oscars on Sunday. There's a lot happening in Los Angeles, and speaking of the Oscars, we will all be watching and then we will all be chatting about it very early the next morning so that you can get in there right away. Listen to our favorite outfits, the wins, the misses, the snubs. So please tune in. Do you have any Oscars, predictions, feelings, desires, things, dresses you would like to see on the red carpet, people you'd like to see win?

[Choma Nardi]

Timothee Chalamet was sort of the dark horse to win the sag to scoop the SAG and that apparently, statistically, like, whoever wins a SAG Best actor usually wins an Oscar. And we've all been talking about Adrienne being the sort of, like, out and out favorite for that Oscar award. So I'm sort of curious to see if, like, Timpathy's just gonna upend the entire system. I'm actually going to the Brits with a special guest this weekend, and we're styling a very special guest, and I'm going with her so I can talk about that next week. I'm very excited. So, yeah, so the team's. The team has pulled some amazing things and we have a fitting on Friday, so with one of the performers. So it'll be really fun and we're gonna attend together. I've never been, so I'm sort of excited for that.

[Chloe Mel]

Oh, that's exciting.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah, the Brits were. Anyone who doesn't know is kind of like the. The. The Grammys of the uk.

[Chloe Mel]

I know our British colleague today was like, oh, how are we feeling about covering the Brits? I was like, just generally British people. And she was like, okay, that answers my question.

[Choma Nardi]

Hilarious. Hilarious. Yeah, I think. I think the digital team, and I'm sure you can sympathize, are flat out. They've just had an awesome. You guys have such a long run. It's like it's one award show after the other. I'd totally forgotten about the Indie Spirit Awards. I was like, how did that cre.

[Chloe Mel]

I know. And then two days after the Oscars, is this Louvre Museum gala events on this?

[Choma Nardi]

I'm like, I'm wondering like, how epic it's going to be. Like, I know they're trying to rival the. The Met Gala. Obviously isn't everyone? But I wonder like, what. What it's going to be? Are there co hosts? Do we know anything? Do we have a sense of like, who we are?

[Chloe Mel]

Waiting on information, it sounds like. And as a background for people who are not in our slack channels, the Louvre museum in Paris recently opened their first ever fashion exhibition in history, which is a big deal. And that opened in January, I believe around January Couture week. And now at the beginning of Paris Fashion Week, there is a big, elaborate, dramatic, star studded gala dinner to celebrate that exhibition. And it is black tie. There is a major guest list. A lot of houses are dressing people. It feels like it's going to be a very glamorous evening.

[Choma Nardi]

Mm.

[Chloe Mel]

It's called Le Grand Diner du Louvre. And I think that the photos I've seen from the exhibition look amazing. I'm excited to see it. I hope I get a chance to do so. Choma, next week we will be united in Paris. I'm so excited.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah, me too. Me too. I feel like, what better place to rendezvous than in Paris, huh?

[Chloe Mel]

And Choma, I was so excited, I joined. I had a meeting yesterday morning with Millie Tritton, our intrepid colleague who is sort of the train conductor for all of our international content sharing. And she was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm on a sugar. Cause we all just had delicious treats for celebrating Choma's one year anniversary of 12 covers at British Vogue.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Ah.

[Choma Nardi]

I was so moved. I actually wanted to cancel the meeting, but I was told I couldn't cancel it because I didn't know about the surprise. So it was sort of really wonderful. The team surprised me with cupcakes and a card printed with all of the 12 covers. And it was kind of like an emotional moment to look back and be like, wow, Damn, it's been 12 issues. Which is like, you know, it's like you have to. You have to do that. That year. That year of issues feels like really monumental. So it was, it was really. It was a really good feeling. So it was nice.

[Chloe Mel]

All right, well, that is the news of the week. The run through will be back in a moment.

[Chloe Sharma]

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[Chloe Mel]

And we are back with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I know I speak for the entire Vogue team when I say how much we loved your essay featured in our March issue. It's called the Story of My First Love. And it's describing the puppy love you experienced with your first boyfriend and then, sadly, his unexpected death. Can you tell us a little more about what it was like to revisit that part of your life?

I've actually written about him before, years ago, a long time ago, a much longer essay that was also about sort of the phenomenon of. The rising phenomenon of armed robberies in Nigeria. But it just kind of made me go back in a way that I hadn't in a while and write about it in a different way. Because I do think that there is something about that first love. I think there's something about first love in general. Sometimes it's not a wonderful experience for people. Mine was until it wasn't. And I think also just that idea that you kind of know intellectually that this relationship was done, but because this person has this horrible, tragic end in some ways, I think memory then turns things around and suddenly there's a kind of, in addition to obviously sorrow and grief, there's a kind of nostalgia for something that will never be. And I'm a person who's kind of addicted to nostalgia. It takes me very little to become very nostalgic. But this one in particular, I mean, I. Yes, I wrote about it in a way that's different from how I have written about it in the past. And I also felt quite moved at the end. And I kind of hope that I was also, in some ways, paying tribute to him. Actually, what's been lovely is that there are people who have been in touch with me since it came out, people I went to secondary school with and who told their own stories about him, some I didn't even know about. And so that's also kind of been lovely.

Yeah.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

I want to know about being photographed by Andy Leibovitz and being styled for your Vogue shoot, because I loved those photos so much. They felt so personal and true to you and also so glamorous and very Vogue. It was like this perfect mixture of what you wanted the images to be. Had you worked with Annie before? What was that experience like?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes, Annie actually had photographed me before about 10 years ago, and she came here to our house. But I remember even then that she. She was just very human. And this shoot I just loved. I think that it's wonderful when you're working with a photographer who thinks of you not as an object to be photographed, but as a human being. So Annie really wanted to talk about where I was, and I just really appreciated that. But also what I was also struck by. I mean, Annie is this iconic figure, but she just really cared that about what I thought about what we were doing. And I remember thinking, I don't know anything about photography. You shouldn't care about what I think. Yeah, but. But no, it was lovely. And Eric, the stylist was just the loveliest person.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

He's wonderful.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I just thought it was lovely. The whole thing was lovely. Annie's team was lovely. Really? Yeah, it was. And I love the pictures. I really do. I don't usually like pictures of myself. I'm always looking at pictures of myself, looking for something to dislike. And in this case, I found very little.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Your last novel, Americanah, was published 2013, and you've published several nonfiction works since then, but you've also had three children. And I wonder. I feel like whenever I've written fiction, it's so world consuming that how. What is that transition in and out of their world and into this world you're creating?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Like, it is strange. I. You know, actually, I think I started to feel that expression. Writer's block is one I detest, but one must use it, because it's just the easiest way to express that inability to write fiction. Fiction is the love of my life. And when I got pregnant, my daughter. My daughter is nine now. I just felt that something happened in my brain and I could just. Could no longer write fiction. And I struggled for quite a while, and it felt like being shut out of yourself, because I think that the truest self that I have is a self that writes fiction. And I couldn't reach that self. And so really, the only way I can think about my finally getting back to writing is a kind of. It's a kind of joyous reunification with the self. And it just made me so happy. But having children also means that you don't have as much time to devote to the work. And I'm a writer who's quite obsessive. So when I'm inside my fiction, I don't want to do anything. Anything else. And until I had my daughter, that worked out well. But then with my daughter, because really, romantic love was never a problem. I could always put it aside to focus on my fiction. But I realized that maternal love. But I think it's also that a part of me is terrified that my daughter will grow up and say my mother's writing was more important than me. And so I have a rule with her where she can come in whenever she wants when I'm working. And I gave her that rule, hoping that she would not take me up on it very often. Yeah, sadly, she does. So there are times. There are times when I've sort of had to leave home and go lock myself up somewhere for a few days at a time just to. Especially when I'm going through a difficult time in the writing process. But you know what? I also find that actually I feel so fortunate to be a mother, really, because they have given me. I think there's a. I'm a different writer because I'm a mother. There's a kind of, I think, a new plane of understanding. Understanding. And I think it's a higher plane of understanding and an access to certain kinds of emotions. And it's made me different. And I think, really, I think better just having them. And I have babies. So that's even more, you know, interesting.

Yeah.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

I also, I wonder, as you said, it felt like you were locked out of a certain part of yourself, not being able to write fiction for a long time. What was the key that reopened that for you?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Do you know? I don't actually know. I mean, I. I started writing after.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

My mother died, which was in 2021.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes. Yes. And so some. Some of. Some parts of this book had been floating in my head for years, but I actually started writing this novel knowing I was writing a novel after my mother died. And I. I don't know, I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but I think that there is a sense in which it was maybe my. Maybe it was my mother, maybe it was my mother that unlocked the door for me. Maybe.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

We've been talking a lot at Vogue about the five year anniversary of the beginning of the COVID lockdowns and just sort of reflecting on that time, and it did feel like for the characters in the novel, that. That is a sort of an important set piece and an unlocking in many ways of different nostalgias and revisiting things. Was that an experience that you had for the beginning of COVID as well?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, I think that's really true about COVID being. I felt, in a literary sense that Covid is kind of like this wide, almost blank canvas that you. On which you can sort of impose all sorts of the different permutations of human response, I think. And Covid was such a strange, surreal thing that none of us had ever experienced. I mean, nobody alive has ever experienced a proper universal plague. And so to go through that. I remember my. My experience was the first few weeks was just one of just utter surrealness. And I was at home here in the US with my daughter, and my husband is a doctor, so he was walking.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Oh, wow.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

And. And I was always terrified that he would bring it home, and especially terrified for my daughter. And. And then my father died. My father died weeks into lockdown. So the lockdown then became, for me, the intense grieving period. And it's very strange to grieve when the world is grieving and also when the world is shut down. It just. It really was a very surreal time for me. So in a literary sense, it's also very rich with. With sort of literary possibility and material. In some ways, Covid is the. It's the foundation on which the stories then kind of rise or fall.

I liked what you said about maternal love making your kind of understanding of yourself and your writing richer. And it resonated, I think, because I always find that there's a overblown dichotomy between, like, the mother and the artist. And can the two coexist?

Yeah.

However, I will say, in a way.

But this is the thing. I don't really know that we ask about fatherhood and art.

It's totally true.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

We do not.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

No.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

And it's not fair.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, it's not fair. That's the point. I mean, it's. And obviously, I'm not suggesting that it's the same thing. Fatherhood is not motherhood. Right, we know that. But I just think that if women are going to be constantly asked, and they should be, because it's important, then perhaps we should ask fathers as well. Anyway. Go on. Go on, Chloe.

Well, I was going to say, I guess that despite the overblown attention paid to mothers and artists, do you have rituals, routines that help you carve out time for both being a mother and an artist?

No, I've never. I've always wanted to be that writer, you know, who has a routine and. But no, you know. No, I don't. I think, if anything, it's really just about. There's certain things I'm very clear about. I have to have time with my children every day when I'm home. And so I. And I don't. It doesn't really matter when I just. I. For me, it's. I make it happen. It has to happen. And I think part of it is just also, I think the anxiety that comes with that kind of love, you know, I was joking. I was joking with my best friend earlier today and I said to her, I'm terrified of going on book tour next month because I'm worried that my babies won't know me when I come back. Oh. And it's just for a month and I'll be home a few days during the month, but it's a huge deal for me, of course.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. How does the character first take shape for you? Is it the name? Is it the place? Is it a combination of the two? And I'm personally curious, having read the book, if there was one character for this book that came to you first.

It's always hard to answer these because I often say, and kind of half jokingly, that I feel like I'm inventing things when I'm talking about how I wrote my fiction because so much of it is not. Not entirely conscious. There's a lot that is. I think about things, obviously, but then there's a lot that's intuitive. So going back, I think I. Maybe Chia came to me first. Chia is the character who sort of, we might say, kind of the major character or four major characters. Out of the four major characters, she might be slightly more major. The first line of the novel has been floating in my head for many years. And so I think it came with a character like her. She's sort of dreamy and not very practical. And so I think maybe she came first. But generally characters come to me in different ways. Sometimes it's mood. I don't always see them physically. Actually, if you asked me to describe some of them in detail, I might not be able to. But if you asked me to tell you how they would react to any situation, I would tell you. So I know them internally much more than I know them externally. And so they come to me as sometimes, honestly, as companion. So as an idea of a person I'd like to have a conversation with, for example, which I think is true for all four of my major characters, I would like to. I'd like to talk to them.

I also wanted to talk about place. You have a lot of Americana as a woman who comes to America and experiences like a bit of a culture clash. And there's a lot of diaspora themes in this new book. Did you have a handful of places you wanted to put your characters? Did you. I know some of it, obviously, is sort of geographically approximate to where you live, but how did you figure out where you were gonna send this diaspora population that you're showing us little slices of?

I think it's. Well, you're right. Sometimes it's what's easiest to write about. And what's easiest often is what one knows. So, you know, there's Nigeria, there's. You know, there's parts of the US Philadelphia is a city that's very close to my heart because that's where I lived when I first came. That's where I first went to college. So I think that in all of my fiction, I find a way to throw Philadelphia in because I just have such affection for the city. And I never passed on an opportunity to make fun of New York City, so I took that in the novel. I think that city is very deserving of mockery. But also, I mean, this is a book in which I think I've really tried to. To sort of, at least in a way, make a gesture to every part of the world. It's also kind of telling a modern African story because I think that many of the stories we know about Africa don't actually engage with the idea of the sort of the global presence of Africans. You know, you go to the smallest town in China, and I bet you you will find a Nigerian living there. And so there's, I think, also this desire to kind of capture this kind of sort of modern multiplicity of the African experience.

Yeah.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Chimamanda, I feel like you have been such a beacon for smart women in being allowed to wear things you like wearing and dressing up. And I'm curious. I would just love to talk a little bit about what that journey's been like for you internally to get to a point where you're now, you know, this is not your first book tour. You are embracing. I assume when I met you at the cocktail last week, you were wearing a beautiful, bright dress. What are you. How are you thinking about your book tour? What are you wearing? What would you say to your younger self who thought that maybe a serious writer needed to wear dark colors and not dresses?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You know, it's interesting because this was actually something that I learned in America and when I was in Nigeria. We don't really. This idea that the intellectual life is somehow opposed to an interest in appearance really doesn't exist in Nigeria. So when I was growing up, my mother. It really doesn't. And you know, you see women who are so right now in Nigeria, I think a number of our major banks are headed by women. Oh my God. They are incredibly stylish and they're also this really, you know, brilliant bankers. My mother was, you know, she there, she was the head of the. The non academic part of the university. And my mother dressed up every day. I care about appearance because I was raised by my mother. And my mother, in fact made it almost a moral imperative. So if you heard her talking about people who did not present themselves well, you would feel that they had somehow committed some sort of crime. Right. Because she felt, my mother felt that. That taking care of your parents was an act of courtesy to other people.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Interesting.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

So that, you know, she would say things like, the people who are going to see you, you owe it to them to present yourself well. And I kind of have taken this on. Right. But when I came to the US I very quickly realized that when you want to be taken seriously, you cannot dress up if you're a woman. Because then it becomes about in that way that it seems to me that often there are two extremes to how a woman can be. That you can either be serious and intellectual and therefore sort of look dull and bo. Or you can care about your appearance and be judged as somehow shallow. And because I know this is not true from all the women in my life, but I went along with it. You know, you're young, you're very eager to be published, you want to fit in. So I did go through a period when I wore clothes I did not like because I felt that that was what I was supposed to wear. So at some point, you know, I thought, you know what? I want to wear the high heels, because that's actually what I like. And so I started, I think I slowly started with high heels. And then I love color, so I love fashion. So it's lovely that you asked me that, Chloe, because actually I'm stressing out now about having nothing to wear on my book tour.

Oh, I hope many people are listening to this too. I mean, surely jump at the opportunity.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

You've done such wonderful collaborations with Maria Grazia at Dior.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Will you be going to their show or do you will borrowing something you.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Know, sadly, sadly, I'm going to be right in the middle of touring when the show happens, so I'm going to miss this one, which is sad. But I'm going to see her in London. I might. I mean, I, you know, I like to mix things up. I love Maria Grazia's duo. I love it because I think that Maria Grazia likes women and I think it's such an important thing. You can tell, you can tell when a designer likes women.

Yeah.

I'm also very interested in Nigerian and African designers. But, you know, I. I need to get more organized. But I was actually thinking yesterday, my God, I have nothing to wear. That's the most important thing.

[Chloe Mel]

Well, what was the dress?

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

You mentioned that the dress you wore the other night was a Nigerian designer. Are there a few designers that you sort of are at the top of your mind that you love?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes, yes. So the designer I was wearing to the cocktail is a designer called the Lady Maker. Okay. Her name is Ife Mwazubike and she's just really wonderful. Like Maria Grazia, she likes women. So it's just quite lovely to see. And she does this very, just sort of very intricate, very, very intentional, even though the young people have spoiled that word walk. And, you know, you look at her dresses and you just see that so much, so much effort has gone into them. So I love her. There are quite other. There's another designer I really admire called nkw. Nkwo is a bit more sort of experimental. She's wonderful, really. And there are a number of sort of, you know, smaller, younger brands that I like very much. And I'm always looking to find new people. I mean, Nigeria, there's just so much talent. There's so much. Yeah, there's so much.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

I'm curious. I thought it was so interesting that you said you get, you dress the way you do because your mother dressed the way she did that, that she really inspired the way that you think about self presentation. What is it like raising a daughter in America and how she presents herself and how she gets dressed for school? I just. My son is going to kindergarten, so I've been doing all of these kindergarten tours and I noticed that all of the kids just dress like slobs every day. They're just all in sweatpants and it's totally fine to me. How do you navigate that with holes in the pants?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

They're my kids.

You know, there is a kind of increasing informality in the American public space that is horrifying to me.

[Chloe Mel]

That's true.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You Know, and I think again about my mother who said that that to present yourself well was a courtesy to other people.

[Choma Nardi]

Yes.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

And the thing about living in this country is that I find myself when I'm in the U.S. i sort of tilt towards the slob. So if we're sort of just going out to grab something, sometimes I'll just pull on, you know, raggedy leggings. And my husband once has said to me, are you serious? And then I said, wait, America is getting under my skin. This has to stop. My daughter, when we're in Nigeria, it's interesting because we spend half the year here and half the year in Nigeria. And it's interesting to me how I feel as though we're different people in different countries.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

That's interesting.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

When, when we are in Nigeria, my daughter dresses better and I let she. Now she decides what she wants to wear. So she, she likes dresses. So she has dresses and she will want to wear a dress sort of for the day when we're here. She doesn't. She wants to wear her leggings and what I call. So we have a thing where I say, are you going to wear one of your raggedy tops? And. And then she'll say, mama, it's not raggedy. But I'm thinking, my God, it is. And friend comes to visit and I think you're all raggedy. This is just terrible. And I don't mean they have to sort of, you know, wear lace up shoes, but you know, just a little bit of a, just a little bit of an effort. She does go to, she does. She wears a uniform to school here. So that I'm very grateful for that.

Your daughter sounds at least receptive to your suggestions. I just have sons who completely insist they can only wear sweatshirts, which is so disappointing.

I'm terrified at thinking about raising. I'm raising, I'm going to raise, raise two men and oh, but I will, you know, the African mother in me will come out. You will wear what I say until I stop paying your bills.

I need some of that.

That's how it's going to work.

I need some of that steel will in my own sartorial parenting skills.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Do you dress twin boys in matching outfits?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I do, I do. I do the best. I do. And I'm just like, you know what? Until they're old enough to decide, I will enjoy it. I will do what I want.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

As you should.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, I know it won't last not long, but yes.

You never know. Could go for a while.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Are there any great Books about twins that you've read or has it inspired you to write about twins? I feel like they're such a fascinating subject.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, they really are. Have I. Not really, no. But what I find myself doing now is asking people who are twins questions endlessly, like, what did your parents do that really annoyed you? That's one question that is important to me because I want to. To figure out how to navigate that. I want to figure out which annoyances I will not care about and which ones I will. And also just because what I do think about a lot is how to make sure. For me, it's important to keep them really close. I want them to constantly just be there for each other, but also to respect their individuality. And even just as babies, they're so different. They're so different. One sleeps through the night now, one doesn't. One eats. Well, one doesn't. You know, one crawls fast, one doesn't. So I want to find it's striking, that balance. And obviously I don't have any experience in that, so I am asking. I'm asking twins.

I have. My best friend is a twin, grown up now, and he is in a form of couples therapy with his twin because the relationship is so central. Yeah. He says it's like one of the most important relationships in his life. And like any relationship, you have to work on it. And so he sees a therapist with his twin just to like, I love that for them. Keep them. You know who I'm talking about.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Yes.

[Chloe Mel]

I'm friends with the other twin to.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Keep them on good terms. And I thought it was so strange. And then I was like, actually, it makes perfect sense because this is.

[Chloe Mel]

Yes, completely.

[Choma Nardi]

It is.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

It is your first couplehood.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes. Yes. I mean, you shared this sort of your foundational beginning. Your foundational beginning space. You shared with this person.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

I mean, what can be your smallest home?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yes. Okay. Now I'm going to stress out about my children needing therapy when they grow up.

No, these are particularly neurotic people, as Chloe Mel can attest. But anyway, I wanted to ask about a totally different topic, which is book bans. And you having spoke out about them in the past and having had some of your own books banned, we're obviously in a very troubling and tumultuous political climate in many ways. Do you have any kind of new thinking on book bans and what it's like to publish a book at this moment in our kind of political history?

No. You know what I do think is book bans don't Work. I mean, they're bad in the sense that they disrupt. They're disruptive. But in the end, I really do believe that literature will triumph. And I know that for me as a reader, when you tell me that a book is banned, that's the book I want to read. Yeah. And I think that. I think human beings in general, there's a sense in which we can be drawn to sort of what feels, what we're told. You know, it's like a child was told, don't touch that, and the child wants to touch it. And I also think, honestly, when I was told that my book was banned, I felt very pleased because I thought, you do not ban a thing that doesn't have power. And so I thought, whoa, that's rather nice. Nice to be banned and all the wonderful books that have been banned. But I think that there are people who are reading and that. And that in the end, you cannot. You cannot ban the human imagination. Like, you cannot. I mean, the same way that, you know, this administration wiping certain words out from sort of government language that you can use, to me is sad, but it will not succeed because you just cannot. There's a. There's something, I think, that is that you cannot kill in the human spirit and in the imagination. And so I don't really. I think it's terrible what's happening, but I think it will pass.

Yeah.

And I think that literature will continue to thrive.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Chimamanda, thank you so much for giving us so much time. I know that you're in a whirlwind of back to back press, but we are both. We're so excited to do this interview. And I'm sorry I'm going to embarrass Chloe, but Chloe had a very severe bodily accident this weekend. There was a finger cut involving cooking. In fact, involving cooking.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Really?

I cut my finger. You can see the bandage. Aww.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

But I feel like only a deeply important interview could have.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

I wasn't gonna miss it.

[Choma Nardi]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Thank you. Thank you, Paulie, for sacrificing your finger. Your fingers, comfort. Your fingers, comfort. Well, it's.

Strangely enough, the way I've been thinking about is resonating with this conversation because it was like I'd rushed home from work. I wanted to cook. I wanted to be with the kids. And it was just too many things at once. And, you know, you have to, like, take space to do each thing. Not all of it, all the time.

Yes. And, you know, I feel like that's a wonderful message for women. If I can end with that like to do everything at once. And we, you know, I think women are really, you know, I think most women are doing their best and I really think that's okay. Yeah. I just feel that. And I say that to myself as well because, you know, and this kind of guilt that we take on very easily. I'm talking myself out of it when it concerns my children. I've been guilty, for example, the past week that I haven't given them a bath myself. My babies, and. And they're fine.

[Chloe Mel]

Right.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

They have a wonderful, supportive father.

Yeah.

We have help. And I'm still stressing out about being feeling a bit guilty and wanting to do it all and do it perfectly and it's not possible. And we should stop. Honestly, we should just stop. But I'm so sorry about your finger. Oh, thank you.

You know what? All the medicine I need, I'm just going to take that with me.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

All right, Jo, Amanda, good luck on your book tour.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Thank you. Take care. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Joanna Solotarov. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Mosley and James Yost.

[Chloe Mel]

It is mixed by Mike Kutchman.

[Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie]

Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global audio.

[Chloe Sharma]

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[Choma Nardi]

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[Chloe Sharma]

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[Choma Nardi]

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[Chloe Sharma]

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[Unnamed Interviewer]

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