Emerald Fennell Captures the Transgressive Power of Wuthering Heights

Summary

The Run-Through with Vogue – Episode Summary

Episode Title

Emerald Fennell Captures the Transgressive Power of Wuthering Heights
Date: February 12, 2026

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode centers on the reinterpretation of Wuthering Heights by filmmaker Emerald Fennell, focusing on her new adaptation and its transgressive, unapologetic take on Bronte’s classic. The conversation delves deeply into themes of gothic romance, taboo desire, and literary legacy, with Fennell discussing her creative choices, the power of "mad women" in literature, and her signature visual style. The hosts also touch on current fashion news, NYC Fashion Week, and highlight figures making waves in the industry, including a notable conversation about South Asian model Bavita and coverage on the Winter Olympics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Club & Screening: Wuthering Heights / Fennell’s Film

[02:23–06:18]

• Vogue’s editors hosted a book club around Wuthering Heights, culminating in a screening of Fennell’s adaptation.
• Both hosts enthuse about the cast—especially Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie as the leads.
• Discussion of the film’s “sizzling” chemistry and the set as an evolving character.
• The tension and execution of intimate scenes are lauded, while young actors’ performances are highlighted as standout.

Memorable Quote:
"This is the version of the movie that the 14-year-old me who read this book for the first time really wanted to see. And it really just felt so unapologetic and just turned every dial up all the way." – Chloe [03:23]

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2. Fashion Week Rundown

[06:18–13:28]

• Discussion of Chloe’s new Vogue cover—praise for Rosalia and Bad Bunny’s approachable styling.
• Marc Jacobs’ surprising, minimalist show at the Park Avenue Armory described as “nostalgic” and a “wonderland world” pared down to essentials.
• Excitement around up-and-coming shows, e.g., Rachel Scott for Proenza Schouler and new venues like the Marcel Breuer building for Tory Burch.
• Hosts chat about balancing personal style with the realities of NYC winter, with humorous, relatable banter about weather-appropriate shoes.

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3. Spotlight: Bavita – A Modern Model’s Rise

[13:42–19:05]

• Chioma shares an interview with rising model Bavita, lauding her intelligence, unique journey (discovered on the NYC subway), and rapid ascension.
• Discussion centers on representation: Bavita’s impact as a South Asian model and public discourse around colorism and beauty norms.
• Bavita’s thoughtful, grounded approach to her new fame stands out.

Memorable Quote:
"She just really is owning the space and wants to be a voice, not just a face… she just really is doing such a good job of navigating this really kind of like… once in a lifetime thing that’s happened to her." – Chioma [18:35]

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4. Cultural Dispatches: Dr. Jill Biden, David Bowie, Olympics

[19:05–22:07]

• Chioma details her meeting with Dr. Jill Biden on women’s health initiatives.
• Anticipation builds for the David Bowie fashion exhibit.
• Light-hearted chat about Winter Olympics—Chloe wears her Olympic Ralph Lauren sweater, and both are fans of Ilia "the quad God" Malinin.

---

5. Conversation with Emerald Fennell

[22:53–58:23]

a. Personal Bonds to Wuthering Heights & Adaptation Process

• Fennell discusses her lifelong passion for Wuthering Heights and how her adaptation is rooted in what her 14-year-old self desired from the story.
• She views the novel as “absolutely filthy” and full of hidden, raw sexuality.
• Fennell’s adaptation focuses solely on the first half of the book, intentionally ending with Cathy’s death to capture the emotional zenith.

Memorable Quote:
"I really respected her take. That was like, this is the version of the movie that the 14-year-old me... really wanted to see... so unapologetic and just turned every dial up all the way." – Chloe [03:23]

"The book is absolutely filthy…there’s a sort of quote from Daphne du Maurier… she talks about it as being a kind of sexless book, but I have never experienced it that way.” – Emerald Fennell [25:58]

b. Gothic, Sexuality, and Power

• Discussion of the gothic romance as a distinct literary form: both romantic and “sadomasochistic.”
• The film heightens themes of sexual dynamics, emotional violence, and cruelty that underpin the book but are often glossed over.
• “Gossip is an original power” becomes a recurring motif relating to the dynamics among the characters and the role of women’s agency.

Quote:
"Gothic romance is a very specific type of romance. It's one that kind of has a slight sadomasochistic edge to it.” – Emerald [25:25]

"Gossip is an original power that women have. I mean, it really is such an early form of power wielding that was available to people." – Chloe [39:03]

c. Narrative Choices and Reframing

• The role of Nelly Dean in the story and film is expanded: while some view her as villainous, Fennell positions her as an agent of order—a counterpoint to Cathy and Heathcliff’s chaos.
• The film draws out the physical, tactile elements of the book (e.g., “skin room," eggs, hair), aiming for a visceral cinematic experience.

Quote:
"The main thing for me is the book's visceral. It's physical. You know, you cry and you feel aroused and you feel disgusted. So I wanted to make the film physical…” – Emerald [32:39]

d. On Race & Historical Context

• Fennell navigates the complexity of portraying race in the text, noting that critical interpretations range widely. She acknowledges the challenge of adapting these elements and chooses to focus on the central, transgressive love story.

e. "Bathtub Scene" & Iconic Film Moments

• The hosts inquire about a “bathtub scene” akin to Saltburn's viral moment; Fennell cites scenes that embrace female desire without shame as potentially transgressive highlights, and recounts the practical joys and perils of sitting on eggs on set.

Quote:
"I think a lot of women have watched the film and been like, okay, you know. Because there's still a lot of shame around female desire. So maybe that's the thing." – Emerald [45:00]

f. On Filming & Visual Style

• Emphasis on the bold, tactile visual approach: devil's horns out of hair, skin room, hair on the undersides of furniture.
• Yorkshire’s imposing landscape was both a boon and a challenge due to unpredictable weather and "epic" visuals.

g. Female Madness, Power, and Literary Heroines

• The conversation moves to “madwoman” tropes in Bronte and Fennell’s works, dissecting the boundaries between transgressive female characters, sanity, and outright wildness.
• Fennell asserts that “madness” in these characters is often simply nonconformity or radical emotion.

Quote:
"I think we're always accused of being mad or stupid or, you know, promiscuous or whatever. You know, I think any kind of... Yeah, it's. I think. I mean, Cassie in Promising a Woman is... She's called Cassandra because she's just telling the truth and everyone doesn't believe her." – Emerald [53:25]

6. The Run-Through’s Signature Style

• Conversation is warm, witty, intelligent, and accessible.
• The hosts blend literary analysis, industry talk, and personal anecdotes with humor and respect for their guests’ perspectives.

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "This is the version of the movie that the 14-year-old me who read this book for the first time really wanted to see. And it really just felt so unapologetic and just turned every dial up all the way." – Chloe [03:23]
• "The book is absolutely filthy… there’s a sort of quote from Daphne du Maurier… she talks about it as being a kind of sexless book, but I have never experienced it that way.” – Emerald Fennell [25:58]
• "Gothic romance is a very specific type of romance. It's one that kind of has a slight sadomasochistic edge to it." – Emerald [25:25]
• "Gossip is an original power that women have. I mean, it really is such an early form of power wielding that was available to people." – Chloe [39:03]
• "The main thing for me is the book's visceral. It's physical. You know, you cry and you feel aroused and you feel disgusted. So I wanted to make the film physical…” – Emerald [32:39]
• "I think we're always accused of being mad or stupid or... promiscuous or whatever. I mean, Cassie in Promising Young Woman is... She's called Cassandra because she's just telling the truth and everyone doesn't believe her." – Emerald [53:25]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:23] Book club event and Wuthering Heights screening with Emerald Fennell
• [06:18] Vogue cover and Marc Jacobs show at Fashion Week
• [13:42] Chioma’s interview with Bavita and discussion on South Asian beauty
• [19:05] Meeting Dr. Jill Biden and the Bowie exhibit
• [22:53] Extensive interview with Emerald Fennell (starts)
  • [25:25] Gothic romance & sexuality in Wuthering Heights
  • [31:39] Visual choices and adaptation process
  • [36:33] Nelly Dean’s role and “gossip as power”
  • [40:30] Handling racial discourse in adaptation
  • [45:00] The “bathtub scene,” female desire, and iconic moments
  • [53:06] Madwomen, radical emotion, and literary tropes
  • [57:16] Set design details and tactile set choices

---

Conclusion

This episode delivers an in-depth, lively, and perceptive dissection of Wuthering Heights as filtered through Emerald Fennell’s distinctive, subversive lens. Listeners are treated to sharp literary analysis, backstage fashion insight, and explorations of women’s representation and power on page and screen. Fennell’s passion for the ambiguous, the physical, and the radical shines through—making this conversation a rich resource for both Bronte devotees and contemporary culture fans.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is the Run Through. I'm Chloe Mehl.

[C]

And I'm Choma Nadi.

[B]

Choma missed you this weekend at our first book club event. It was so fab, as our listeners now know. We read Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte and we invited book club members to join us for an exclusive screening of the film with a special conversation with the one and only Emerald Fennell. She was so Fabulous.

[D]

Oh my God.

[C]

I don't know how you've managed in this past week to release a. Your first, your first print issue, cover the super bowl and do this. Like, girl, how did.

[B]

Did you.

[C]

When do you sleep?

[B]

Oh my God. I've been having so much trouble sleeping. Joma, I need.

[C]

Oh my goodness. We need to talk about that. We'll offline about it. I have many recommendations.

[B]

Sleeping Melatonin gummies.

[C]

Oh my gosh. Just like. I just was like, oh, yeah, that happened too. I was like, oh my God.

[B]

I know the super bowl event back to back was a lot.

[D]

But yeah.

[B]

Emerald was fab and I just, I really respected her take. That was like, this is the version of the movie that the 14 year old me who read this book for the first time really wanted to see. And it really just felt so unapologetic and just turned every dial up all the way. And I just. Margot and Jacob are so amazing. My mom came to the screening and she's been talking about Jacob Elordi now for the past 48 hours.

[C]

I mean, who isn't talking about Jacob Elordi? They're so hot together in this.

[B]

I know, I know.

[C]

You just can't look away. Like it's. It just sizzles. Literally.

[B]

It really does. And then I told her that he's 66 and now she's just swooning all over again.

[C]

I want them to meet and please capture the moment they meet because that is going to break the Internet.

[B]

I also was obsessed with Alison Oliver as Isabella Linton. I thought she was so funny and subversive and just really stole the show. So do you have favorite parts of the movie?

[C]

I think. I mean, for me, the set itself was a character. I just loved the set design so much. I thought it was. It was such a kind of surreal element to the whole film. So for me, the backdrop was really, really fantastic. And obviously all of the fabulous leading up to the sex scenes, to be quite frank, were when there's that moment where he catches her spying on the couple having sex.

[B]

It's the hottest scene.

[C]

Oh my God. I was just like, like, I was like, I need a fan at this moment. Like they need to have Weathering Heights fans. Because I was definitely overheating. But yeah, I mean, there was. I don't know if there were like specific moments that I loved. I just, I do think that those. The sex scenes were probably, if I'm honest, so well done or leading up to that sort of tension building. Actually, I thought the k. The scenes at the beginning with the children and the sort of younger versions. It was great to see Owen Cooper, who was in that wonderful show Adolescence or heartbreaking show Adolescence, honestly, because his performance in that really broke my heart in this role in this period drama. Just to see the range that such a young, talented person can have.

[B]

I know the kids really stole the show for me, too. I. I sort of didn't want that part to end. I really believed their connection was unbreakable.

[C]

And how extraordinary was the young actress, the way she looked. I was just like, whoa, this is this.

[B]

Oh, I know. Teen Vogue just did a great interview with her. And I was like, oh, I love you. I can't wait to see where this goes. All right, Choma. Before we hear from Emerald, big week in New York City and beyond Big week.

[C]

We should start with your big week because I feel like it's been such a. It's been so fab to see everything. Come all the reactions to your fabulous cover. Tell me everything.

[B]

Well, Anna and I did a very funny interview with video interview with the New York Times where we look like the couple from the couples from When Harry Met Sally.

[C]

How did I miss that?

[B]

Oh, my God. It's extremely amusing. And I'm very proud because Arthur's LEGO set of the Daily Bugle made it. Photos of that made it into the video. Oh, my God. Yes and no. People are so excited about Rosalia. She loves the COVID I think she looks so transcendent and spectacular.

[C]

I feel like it's her best cover yet. Like, I don't think I've seen it.

[B]

She looks amazing.

[C]

She's at her peak, right? It just feels like she's in the peak of her power. And isn't it wonderful to capture a woman at that moment in her life?

[B]

She just.

[C]

There's a fullness and, like, just something about her that just feels like, so powerful and totally.

[B]

I feel like we all feel that way.

[C]

And obviously having been ahead with the Bad Bunny, the Bad Bunny of it all, like, what a fantastic.

[B]

Everyone keeps being like, this is your first cover. But I really think of Bad Bunny and Alex Khonsani as my first cover since they were our best dressed covers. But. And Bad Bunny, my God, we are just all in his thrall.

[C]

I know.

[B]

What a spectacular show. And we. Anna actually herself got us the exclusive news that he was wearing Zara, so we were the first to publish that. Nat was very excited. It was treated like a state secret.

[C]

I just love that he wore such a dep. Everything about that show felt Democratic, real, grounded in reality, connected to the culture. And like wearing an inexpensive, like, design, like, you know, brand like Zara just kind of made sense in the scheme of it, you know?

[B]

Yes, completely. And every facet of the show felt exciting and celebratory and inclusive.

[C]

Incredible. Incredible.

[B]

And then last night we had. We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon. Last night we had the Marc Jacobs show, which was the unannounced off of New York Fashion Week. And the show is at 6:30, which, as you know, Mark shows start on the dot.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was so tight a show and an edit that I was home by 6:45. And I do live nearby the Park Avenue Armory. But that was remarkable. And the show was exciting because it felt sort of nostalgic and like a revisiting of some of my favorite Mark silhouettes and very specific sort of. I don't know, how do you describe Chelma? The sort of wide. The above the hip bone. Waist. That's sort of a wide waist.

[C]

I don't know if there's a word for it. I feel like it's definitely his own creation. No. To have those characters.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's sort of an exaggerated proportion where it's almost hovering above the hip bones. But yes, it was exciting to see that it was at the Armory, where it hadn't been for, but had historically been where Mark would show. And in the past he would do elaborate sets. And it was a very. You were walking into Mark's complete wonderland world. And this was completely pared down. The Armory is one of the largest interior spaces in New York. And it was just the open, unfinished, undesigned space with one row of sports gym chairs. Yeah. So perched on a table across the. You know, the room in the Armory was this quite small, I would say sort of 12 by 12 inch painting. Anna Wyant painting of a daisy that actually Mark commissioned last week. And its petals were plucked and pinned sort of like scientific specimens. And. Yeah, it was quite moving to have that be the only scene set.

[C]

I love that she just knocked it up last week.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Commissioned just last week, obviously, because when you're Marc Jacobs, you can just casually commission Anna Wyatt to do a painting for you. So fab. And the soundtrack sounded good too. Love a good Bjork moment.

[B]

Yep. And I'm on my way to Ralph Lauren this evening, which I'm very.

[C]

So is it all kicking off already?

[B]

Oh, it's.

[C]

Are we officially. So. So are we officially day one of.

[B]

Of.

[C]

Of. Well, I guess that was the unofficial start, but Are there things happening today?

[B]

The official start is tomorrow, but we had Mark yesterday. We have Ralph Lauren this evening and then Wednesday is the official start day. Pruenza schooler Rachel Scott's big. Even though she showed her first Franza collection in the fall, this feels like her first full debut. She's doing a show for the first time rather than a presentation. And that feels like something there's a lot of excitement around. And then coach is in the afternoon, which is always fun. Tori is in the evening and that's going to be at the Marcel Breuer building on Madison, which Sotheby's just took over and has had a lot of frison of excitement around it. So I'm looking forward to that.

[C]

Speaking of Frison, are you cold? Are you wearing during the.

[B]

Getting my freeze on free on.

[C]

Yeah. What are the boots? What is the. I guess there's no snow on the ground so you can kind of wear normal. It's freezing. There's lots.

[B]

I've seen all the incorrectly.

[C]

There's lots of snow piled up, but there's less.

[B]

It has a melting. But then you have to be really careful because there's like black ice.

[C]

So what's the shoe? So what's the shoe?

[B]

I mean the shoe today is a pointy toed suede. The robe boot suede girl.

[C]

What are you thinking?

[B]

Black ice friend.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm afraid for you. Please change those. Go home and change those. This is. We do not ruin. We're not ruining those. The shoe is everything.

[B]

I know. I mean I do. I begin my outfit planning with the shoe.

[C]

Well, I mean and in New York it's just tough going with the shoe. The good shoes barely get a looking. There's like a tiny window. It's the same in London because so much rain. So you're like out the good shoe. The suede shoe never gets a look in. The denim shoe never gets a look in. It's always like the hard wearing shoes that like always in rotation. I'm like, darn it. It's not a good shoe day. Forget a good hair day. It's a good shoe day.

[B]

Yes, no, I know. I have to sort of. I have to map out my all weather fashion week dressing plan. I got this gray flannel padded coat from the Prada sample sale last year that I've been wearing a lot and that I'm wearing today.

[C]

Oh, I can't wait to see how it evolves by the time that we hang out in Paris because We're. We're going to be hanging. We're going to be. We're going to be buddies for the whole time, which will be so fun. I'm kind of excited. Yeah. There's going to be.

[B]

I want to hear about your Bavita interview. Tell me everything. I love this cover so much. She looks so joyful and herself.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you so much. It was really refreshing because I think everybody has been so curious about Bavita. She had this incredible origin story. She was discovered on a subway and then obviously opened the show in a. Opened the Chanel metier d' art show that was staged in a subway in a version of the look that she was discovered in. So that opening look, which was like, that quarter zip and the jeans, was basically a version of what she. What she was wearing. And she'd been discovered three times before she decided to say, okay, I'm gonna give it go. I mean, mainly because she wanted, I think, to pay off her student debt. And she was like, okay, now's the time. But she'd been approached many times, and she's really switched on. She's 25, so she's. So she knows. You know, she knows herself in a way. I think she said if she'd have started as a teenager, she doesn't think that she would have been able to navigate the world of modeling in the same way, because I think the attention she's gotten has just been. You know, I mean, overnight, she got like a million, half a million followers. So she's been. It's just been quite a whirlwind for her. And it's quite interesting to talk to someone who's kind of at the center of this intense discourse, because I think a lot of people around the world obviously were drawn to her. She's absolutely gorgeous. There was a story with her family and her mother's reaction to the show, and then this whole discourse about South Asian representation and the fact that there are just so few South Asian models who we see modeling in such a big way. So I think. And South Asian and South. And this idea of, you know, beauty norms and some. And she was just like. I was just surprised to see that suddenly I was at the center of the discourse.

[D]

A.

[C]

Because there were people who were kind of suddenly, weirdly surprised to see someone from her part of the world who's absolutely gorgeous, as if beautiful women didn't exist in India, which is absolutely ridiculous, given that there's, like, over a billion people in that country. It's like, honestly, wake up. And what kind of racism are you dealing with there? And then, then people in her own country who were kind of, who. Obviously there's these, there's this history of colorism and this idea that someone who isn't completely fair representing South Asian beauty standards was also a point of discussion. So I think it's been. And she's such a smart woman, obviously she has, I think maybe it's three degrees. You know, she, she came to New York, it was her first time out of India. Coming at the, you know, as, as a graduate to nyu, she studied technology and design after studying architecture. So she's just really incredibly smart and switched on and wants to, and really wants and really understands her place in the world and what she represents and wants to be completely present. And I don't know, I think she just really is owning the space and wants to be a voice, not just a face. I think that's. That was something that came through. And then I think what really struck people was her, the fact that she was discovered at the old fashioned way. You know, I think there was this nostalgia for those 90s moments when Kate Moss was discovered walking through JFK or her modeling idol, who is Yasmin Guri, who is one of the few big South Asian models of that 90s period. She was discovered modeling. She was behind the counter at McDonald's in Canada. She's like Canadian model. So it was very interesting having that discussion with her because I think people have been very excited about that. There's some nostalgia about this idea that it's not like she's not an Eppo baby, she's not a, an influencer or. She didn't, she was, didn't catch the attention of a casting agent via the Internet. She, she was on her way to meet a friend to have like biryani in downtown New York. Like she was like on the subway at Atlantic Station, which. There's something about this idea that your life can suddenly transform overnight that feels like a modern fairy tale, that of the kind that we haven't seen in a. And talking to her as she's going through and navigating this process because she's like, there's Reddit threads about my face not being symmetrical. This is so weird for me, you know, but then also young, young mothers who write into her and say, you've made my daughter feel really seen. I'm so thankful. And these wonderful letters that she gets. So it was really interesting talking to her because I think she's so smart and she's doing such a good job of navigating this really kind of like. Like, once in a lifetime thing that's happened to her. So, yeah, so it was a really interesting conversation. And, yeah, I'm excited that for the world to sort of get to know her because she's a really fascinating person beyond being astonishingly beautiful.

[D]

So.

[C]

Yeah. And this morning. It's been a busy day, actually, this morning I started my day off with a breakfast interviewing Jill Biden, Dr. Jill Biden, who is in town.

[B]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[C]

She's been doing so much work with the Milken Institute, who do so much in the world of women's health. And obviously that's something that she championed in the White House. So that was. It was a. It was really cool to talk to her this morning. So, yeah, it's been a bit. It's been a busy day. And then later on heading over to the light room, there's. They're opening. They have Dave, the David Bowie exhibit. Obviously, we did vogue the Runway with Lightroom, and now they have a David Bowie moment.

[D]

So.

[C]

Yeah. So it'll be lots of Bowie fashion on massive screens. I'm very excited to sort of immerse myself in the world of David Bowie because. Oh, my God, the original fashion icon. So. Yeah.

[B]

And I love that you're wearing your douro.

[C]

I do. Because I was like, what do I wear to meet Dr. Jill Biden? I was like, I gotta.

[D]

I've gotta look exactly this.

[C]

You know, this is the dress I wear when I'm like, what do I wear?

[B]

I know. It's one of my favorite dresses you own. It's so pretty. It's like a mixed print duro sort of 1940s style, dude. Yeah.

[C]

It's so funny, you know, when you know the designer, it's almost like I'm wearing my friend, you know, like, my friend's with me and I have another. I have a blazer that he recently gave me, too, that's become a bit like that, where I'm like, oh, I don't know what to wear. I'll wear that because it makes me feel like, oh, I'm bringing my friend with me, too. So. So nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, I mean, it's been. I guess. Have you been following the Winter Olympics? I really. I'm not so dialed in, so I need to. I need to kind of get so fun.

[B]

We've all been so into it. I've been wearing my Olympics cable knit sweater from Ralph Lauren. I've been watching. I love watching the. Obviously the skating, the skiing, but also the Curling. We're all very into the quad God. Ilia. Okay.

[C]

Oh, the quad God.

[B]

Yes. He's also on the podcast this week.

[C]

Ooh, listen.

[B]

Okay, will do the 21 year old Malinin. He's the first person to legally land a backflip at the Olympics in five decades. Every time he does a backflip, I get so anxious and imagine him like falling on his head. It really gives me anxiety. But he is competing. And then Mikaela Shiffrin is skiing later this week. We had a great interview with her by Nick Remsen. Lindsey Vonn's crash was so sa, but Breezy Johnson got gold, which was exciting. I love seeing all of these athletes being very courageous and making political statements and really sort of standing up and noting how complicated it is to be representing America right now. So it's felt like an exciting Olympics, I have to say. And the run through will be back with Emerald Fennell.

[C]

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[D]

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[C]

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[D]

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[C]

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[D]

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[C]

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[D]

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[C]

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[D]

Financial Tea is out now wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

[B]

Emerald, thank you so much for being here. You're at the end of such a behemoth press tour. I don't know how you're still standing, but.

[D]

But honestly. Well, do you know what? It's so lovely because I feel, I love. Well, look, this is a book club so I can really talk about it. Like, I love this book so much. And I was just like, so the opportunity to talk about this book and this film with lots of people is kind of a joy. And I'm really lucky that all the people I work with are just lovely. And so we've had a really nice time. So I am. I don't know where I am, but it's quite lovely.

[B]

Well, we're very happy to have you here. And this was a real passion project for me because I love this book. And I have to tell you, my first experience of Wuthering Heights, which was when I was 8 years old. My mother read me Anne Frank, which was a choice. And I started keeping a diary, which she then read, which was also a choice.

[D]

Your mom read your diary?

[B]

Yes, but she read that I wrote about watching Gone with the Wind. I said, I Want to feel the wind I felt when Rhett kisses Scarlet. And so she rented me from Blockbuster, the VHS of Rebecca and Wuthering Heights, which to her were the two most romantic movies. And now, looking back, there's a Laurence Olivier thing, but there's also a ghost thing. They're both really ghost stories and Gothic ghost stories in the best way. And I wonder how ghosts affected your approach to this because you very definitively end when Kathy dies rather than having her haunt Heathcliff. But still there is that Gothic experience to it.

[D]

Well, I think the thing that I was sort of very interested in with Wuthering Heights is the kind of, like, timeless nature of it. And I suppose the thing about a ghost story and the idea of the concept of a ghost, I guess, is that something doesn't die, something endures. And so really, if there is a ghost story here, it's the kind of ghosts of the children that they were and the life that the they didn't lead, perhaps. But I suppose the Gothic for me is, of course, there's this sort of supernatural quality, but also, I would say, the choices that your mother made, which I think were marvelous even though you were eight. It's also about cruelty and it's also about a kind of love that is sort of fatal and complicated and difficult. I mean, Mr. De Winter isn't exactly a straightforward gentleman, or nor is Rhett.

[B]

No.

[D]

You know. So it's interesting that the Gothic romance is a very specific type of romance. It's one that kind of has a slight sadomasochistic edge to it.

[B]

In the book, it's quite between the lines, any sort of sexual power dynamic. But in the movie, it's very straightforward and we really see a variety of different sexual dynamics at play and power dynamics. How did you approach that from the book? And how did you decide which characters you wanted to have really play into that?

[D]

Well, it's funny, isn't it? Because there is. Obviously the book is sort of somewhat more restrained, but. Well, I sort of feel like I'm being disingenuous, which I'm not. The thing is, the book is absolutely filthy. And it's really interesting because there's a sort of quote from Daphne du Maurier when she talks about Wuthering Heights and she talks about it as being a kind of sexless book, but I have never experienced it that way. Interesting, interesting. Really interesting. And again, I think it's partly the magic box that is this novel, that everyone who reads it experiences something slightly different. For me, the sexual power dynamics are extremely explicit, I think, particularly when it comes to, for example, Heathcliff and Isabella. I was very careful to retain as much of Bronte's actual language in this. So things like, you know, the scene where Kathy pulls Isabella's hair and stops her and says, you know, I won't be called dog in a manger again. That like the great. A great significant portion of that scene is just all from the book. Right. The moment that Nellie comes and finds Isabella and Heathcliff at Wuthering Heights after their marriage. I mean, most of his speech is in the book too. You know, I've just slightly, you know, pushed the context.

[B]

You're in a collar.

[D]

Yes, but I think to kind of understand what it would have. What this book would have felt like when it was made. I suppose these are just, you know, it's just kind of slightly, I guess. Yeah. Sort of change reframing it. But I think the reason that people were so shocked when the book came out were because it. I think it is. I think it's extremely explicit. Still reading it, you know, I can't believe it. If, you know, no brutality disgusts her, I must believe she has an innate admiration of it. What a thing to say. Nearly 200 years ago, it's still difficult to swallow.

[B]

Now a lot of us in the office have been rereading this book for our book club and we've all been shocked by how differently we remember reading it as teenagers or college students. I mean, I remember it as a romance and now I read it and. And it's so violent and emotionally violent and physically violent and it's so difficult. And I wonder, you. I know, read it when you were 14 for the first time. What did 14 Year Old Emerald make of the book?

[D]

Well, 14 Year Old Emerald is sort of similar to 40 Year Old Emerald, which is that she's, you know, little slut. So I thought it was terrific. Look, I thought I was just. And I've talked about it a lot before, but. And it just completely obliterated me. And I was, I suppose I was at that age as well, where I was sort of on the cusp of things. But that's kind of what Wuthering Heights is about. It's about these kind of liminal spaces of like adulthood and childhood and innocence and experience and the kind of choices that we make. But I first read it as a schoolbook. It was on the curriculum in England, which meant I approached it with a certain amount of like dread because, you know, I wanted to be reading, I don't know Like Jackie Collins or whatever. And I was just so shocked by it. I was so shocked by what I believe to be quite a sort of sexual and explicit book. Perhaps that's because I was maybe like the characters in this movie kind of in that skinless moment where I was so kind of receptive to the world that perhaps I read more between the lines than I might have done later. But I just couldn't believe it was so transgressive and complicated and dark and that these characters were so horrible. You know, it was the first time I'd read a book with a truly, truly unlovable female protagonist. And the male protagonist is also, like, unbearable. I mean, in the book, he strangles a dog.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

You know, like.

[B]

No.

[D]

He's what my mum would call a bad egg.

[B]

Speaking of which, I have some questions. Yes? I want to know. Having seen your other films, Promising Young Woman and Saltburn, the visual vocabulary that you're working with is so specific and has such a strong point of view. At what point in the process does that happen? I mean, to me watching this film, it's like a Powell Pressburger film on acid. I mean, it really feels like you are. It's such a big, bold swing. And I wonder, as you're writing the script, are you thinking that the floors are going to be, you know, that kind of lacquer red? Are you thinking about Kathy's hair being sort of fashioned into devil horns and the egg yolks? Or does that come after?

[D]

It's sort of combination. But certainly I. The thing that I really wanted to do with this was try and recreate the feeling of a teenage girl reading this book for the first time. Because what I knew is that having read it so many times since and, you know, responded to all the kind of materials around it and other movies and all sorts of. I know that you can't make a straightforward adaptation of something so complicated and so personal and so brilliant, like, she's a genius. So I thought, well, what I can do is make a film that it's approximation of, of a young girl's experience of a Gothic romance. So that really defined so much of the world for me. And so the first thing I did was I wrote down. Once I realized I was gonna adapt it, I wrote down everything I remembered. Having not read it for a few years, I wrote down everything I remembered.

[B]

Oh, interesting. And did you do a draft without reading?

[D]

No, no. I just wrote down, like, a list of things I remembered. And a lot of them were, at some point, were Quotes. Some were, you know, scenes. And a lot of it was from the book. A lot of it was sort of of the book, but slightly different. And then some of it was just downright wish fulfillment. You know, some of it was just like in my dreams stuff that happened. And so really, I had to kind of contend with which parts to keep. And so. But I think the main thing for me is the book's visceral. Yeah, it's physical. You know, you cry and you feel aroused and you feel disgusted. So I wanted to make the film physical, which meant, you know, the skin. Kathy's kind of skin room and the egg yolks and the dough and all of that stuff, the kind of tactile stuff was in there from the beginning. Because I want. I do hope that movies can be physically moving as well as emotionally moving or intellectually moving.

[B]

And is that. I think it's so interesting. The idea of this is the version of the film that I remember, and that. That has to do with why you put the quotation marks around the title. And I think that that's quite freeing in some ways because it does allow it to become your own version of it.

[D]

Well, I think it's freeing, but also it's honest. I couldn't, as somebody who loves Emily Bronte and loves this book. And I know, you know, I think part of my love for her is knowing I'm not going to be the person who makes a definitive version of what she's done. Like, she's so good. In the same way you can't make a definitive version of a Shakespeare play. Like, they're so humane and timeless and they're so tied up in. Because they get inside you. They're very tied up in the personal. You know, the audience is as important as the thing itself. So, like, I just didn't. I couldn't. I had to sort of say, I know that this is. Yeah, this is simply an attempt at, you know, like Kate Bush's song is, I suppose, in a way, or like the figurines that Royal Dalton made are a response. You know, that's what I like, is to take. Kind of try and take everything and sort of it and then, you know, bring it out in this kind of personal way.

[B]

Was there any part of the book that felt a bit like an albatross around the neck that you felt wedded to or restrained by?

[D]

Well, I think, you know, honestly, the second book, which is after Kathy's. Well, spoiler. I mean, spoiler is after you just saw it. No, but I Know, but for the podcast. And also, I'm kind of conscious that very many people still haven't had the pleasure of reading the book. So I'm really.

[B]

That's true. Well, I did. I saw this with about 10 colleagues earlier this week, and. And half of them had read it, and half of them hadn't. And people were shocked that actually your film ends halfway through the book.

[D]

Yeah, it does. But also. But the book itself, I believe it's two books, actually. And there's a lot of kind of. There's a lot of discussion about whether the second book was originally intended, you know, whether it had been written later for other reasons, you know, but whatever the case is, what. I was kind of, like, looking at all the of. Of the stuff for this project, and I went and looked at Balthus lithographs, which I talk about quite a lot, because I just think he's a really interesting artist. He's very troubling and very difficult. Another person like that and his use of space and. I don't know, his drawings are very, very interesting for this. And there's a great afterword where it's like, I tried for a year to do. To illustrate the second half of this book, and I could.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

And I just thought. And that was really freeing. Cause I thought, like, well, yeah, because, you know, of course. Of course you can. But I'm not sure you can do it in two hours in the same way that I'm not sure you can cover. I mean, so much Hindley. I mean, there's so many aspects of this book that require their own adaptations, you know, and so if you're gonna kind of focus on this sort of specific love, kind of sadomasochistic love between Cathy and Heathcliff, then the second half of the book is difficult.

[B]

I mean, I have to say, rereading the book, the most interesting character to me is Nellie Dean, the servant who is the narrator. And you wonder, maybe the most unreliable narrator and also maybe the person who's responsible for so much of this. And then I saw the movie, and I was bowled away, bowled over. Super bowled by how you really put Nellie at the center of it and gave her such agency and made her the villain in many ways, because it so becomes up to her to have caused all of this chaos.

[D]

That's so interesting that you felt she was the villain. Because I feel. Well, maybe it's because I'm an older sister, and I'm an older sister in my very core. I'm like, Nellie is the only person sane Person here, sure.

[B]

But sane.

[D]

No, but I think I suppose so. I suppose what I mean by that is, is there's an. There's an amazing piece of scholarship from the 50s called Nelly Dean is the real villain of Wuthering Heights. And it goes on to say. To say exactly what you're saying here, which is that all of the catastrophes that happen in this book happen because of information that is withheld by Nellie or moments that are kind of like slightly, you know, she. But the thing about Nellie Dean is I do disagree that she's a villain. I think. I think what she is, is a really interesting character in the book and hopefully in this film, too, which is that she is. She is actually who we would all be in this story. Saying, this is not a good idea. This is fatal. Yes, this will be fatal. Not just for you, but for everyone. Yes, she, you know, and everything. And everything that she does is kind of reactive. You know, the decision she makes to kind of deviate are because she is being. Because of an act of cruelty by Kathy.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

It's not as though she's a kind of malevolent force on her own. She's. And also Cathy and Heathcliff are. But Cathy in particular is unbelievably capricious.

[B]

Oh, she's the worst.

[D]

You know, she's. She's, of course, my favorite, but she's. But would you let your craziest friend plot the course of your life?

[B]

Well, I have to say I listened to an old podcast you did a couple years ago about what your ideal day would be.

[D]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

And you said that the afternoon you'd have a goss with a friend about something bad that another friend was doing. And I thought, this is Nelly and Kathy.

[D]

I think I know the podcast you mean, which is one of those ones where it's one of my best friends does that podcast. And I just. Absolutely just was much too honest. And now I really regret it. But no, but I think it was low stakes gossip. Yes.

[B]

No, no, of course.

[D]

This is not. It's done anything really terrible, but it's just a little bit terrible.

[B]

Your dream day wasn't causing her death?

[D]

No, no, no. My dream day wasn't like ruining people's lives. It was more like, oh, we've been to a party and somebody's like, slightly let themselves down and we can talk or like somebody's ex boyfriend has done something terrible and so we can flog that dead horse for like two to five hours.

[B]

But gossip is an original power that women have. I Mean, it really is such an early form of power wielding that was available to people. And I think Nellie is such a good example of that. And I loved the moment. And this is obviously not in the book, but when you meet Edgar and Isabella, Isabella is describing, sort of annoyingly, the plot. Of what? Of Romeo and Juliet. And she said, it's all the fault of the nurse. She's causing chaos and everyone dies because of her. And I thought, well, then, here we go. We're just getting the plot of the movie in one sentence. But of this story.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, that's it. It's the nurse. It's. Well, but I think the thing that always interests me and why I'm so kind of obsessed with this book still is it's so radically amoral, you know, And I just think that's so extraordinary, particularly for a woman, you know, and even now. Now it's really radical to not say whether you think someone is good or bad. Right. Or to not say whether you think something is acceptable or not acceptable. It's radical to kind of withhold your own, I don't know, moral perspective, I guess. And so, yeah, no, but I agree with you. Of course, the gossip is. Gossiping is kind of witchcraft, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of quiet power.

[B]

I. Speaking of the book being just so fraught and amoral. Race plays a significant role in the book. I mean, Heathcliff is denigrated so often for his racial background. I wonder how you approached race when you were thinking about bringing this to the screen.

[D]

Well, I think the thing that was really interesting when I was kind of, like, researching the book and looking at everything was that there's a lot. There's a. There's a huge amount of discourse and scholarship about that precise thing. And what is really interesting and complicated when you're looking at adapting it is there's very little agreement, particularly because of the kind of historical context of the book and what was precisely meant. Which does make it sort of a complicated thing to look at because people feel very strongly one way or another, whether, you know, because also. Because it's very inconsistent in the book. And it very much depends on who's talking.

[B]

Again, unreliable narrator.

[D]

So that was always, like, a really complicated one. And obviously something I take, like, enormously, enormously seriously. And I think the thing that I felt was looking at all of the kind of historical scholarship about it, looking at reviews from the time and also looking at the kind of art that had been made, the illustrations, generally speaking, it was sort of a Sort of Southern European. And I use the word really in inverted commas because it is a slur, Gypsy. Now, whether that is the correct interpretation, there is no, I mean, for me it's really difficult to know because again, there is so little agreement. But what I did know was that I wanted to make a story about a very, very complicated, say, domesticistic love affair and that I, that was the thing that I could do. And that the dynamics of the story, the political dynamics of the story was something that certainly I was probably not, not best positioned to be the person to tell that story or that version of the story. But, you know, it's always, it's a, it's always really complicated, these sorts of things because you, you know, you, you're always just trying to do the best that you can. And I, and I also felt partly that in the book, in the book, I, I kind of felt like I wanted this, this kind of feeling of like, I don't know, that there's something new coming into this world. The thing that's really interesting about Wuthering Heights is it's on the threshold of the Industrial Revolution, right? So you've got the new world coming in. And I felt like for this version, it would be really interesting to kind of use Edgar as a way of showing the positivity of that new world, you know, and of actually, but, but it's, but as I say, you just, you just hope that everything exists in the context of this movie and that it makes sense in the context of this movie. But, you know, I, I, that's all I can hope for, really.

[B]

And the Run through will be back with Emerald Fennel this week on the political scene from the New Yorker. Trump's rupture in the world order. Europe caught between two adversarial great powers.

[C]

That'S basically dialing back the clock to.

[B]

Not only Pre World War II, but really it's a pre 20th century view of the world. And I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at.

[C]

Join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday.

[B]

On the political scene. Available wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like the bathtub scene from Saltburn loomed large in our collective consciousness. I feel that, yes, people, it was a big moment. What is the bathtub scene of this.

[D]

Wuthering Heights so interesting. What's the bathtub scene? I mean, the thing is, I don't know that it's kind of like the doe. Do you know what I mean? Because the thing is, it's sort of the reason I think the bathtub was so connective is that it was so. Well, people doubt this, but it was so relatable, so. But I think. I think for me, there's a moment here again, you know, if people haven't heard the. Haven't seen the film yet. There's a moment where Heathcliff catches Kathy doing something and rather than shaming her, he enthusiastically kind of embraces it. And I think that's still something that's quite transgressive now. I think a lot of women have watched the film and been like, okay, you know. Because there's still a lot of shame around female desire. So maybe that's the thing. But it's a romantic film. I think, more than it is. It's an emotionally engaging film, more than an erotic film. And I think maybe the naughtiest bit is in the first five minutes of the film. Because I guess I maybe wondered what people would anticipate.

[B]

I think people should write in with their scenes.

[D]

Yeah. Well, absolutely, because you just never know. That's what I've learned. You never know.

[B]

Be the egg yolk jokes for that. Yeah, I screamed.

[D]

Yeah, people.

[C]

The egg.

[D]

The egg. Actually, I've got to say, sitting on a bunch of eggs is one of the most sensory, pleasurable experiences of your.

[C]

Life, by the way.

[B]

But tell me, when you're doing this.

[D]

What do you mean?

[B]

When are you sitting on a bed full of eggs?

[D]

Because somebody has to do it. And I don't want my crew to have to sit on a bunch of eggs. So I'm like, I'll do it.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But what's interesting is that it's like all filmmaking is that the thing that you anticipated wasn't really. Really didn't really happen. So you expect lots of eggs to crunch. But what happens when you apply pressure to lots of eggs is they all go at once. So the sound is like, pop. So it's like, oh, no. Well, that's not the sound. That's not the, like, satisfying crunch. So. But it is really weird because you sit on loads of eggs and they just don't do anything for ages. And then they just go boom. And it's fun. And look, if you can do it between some rubber sheets or something, like, I don't think people should ruin their bedding. But it is, like, recommend.

[B]

Wow. You heard it here first.

[D]

Well, it's interesting. We've been talking about comps a lot, you know, because when you're making a movie, you have a Lot of meetings and a lot of data and a lot of comps. I've never said the word comps so much in my life as I have in the last six months, and there aren't that many.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What are the other ones?

[D]

Well, I actually won't name them because I feel like I wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't want to, like, keep them to yourself, so. But I think the thing is that the truth of it is people just don't really make films for women.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I think it's just sort of as simple as that. Not just women, but, like, the kind of, you know, anyone who likes these kinds of movies, it's kind of fallen out of fashion, like the epic romance, even though it was the thing that was what kept cinemas going for the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. And so. And I think the thing that I hope to do really, is. And it sort of comes back to what we were talking about, about this Wuthering Heights being. The kind of thing that I imagined is, like, I try and make stuff that gives me a thrill, that makes me feel emotionally engaged. And a lot of that stuff comes from a, like, deep female place. And so. But it is interesting. There are very still, you know, remarkably few sort of romantic films, especially with this kind of budget and scale, you.

[B]

Know, what will be the next big emerald film? Are we. Are we saying.

[D]

I mean, I don't know, I can do one thing at a time, just. And some people would say, no, I can't do anything at a time. Actually, the truthful answer is I want to spend time with my family because, like, you, I've got a young family and I. And I've made three films and had two children in six years. And actually, I just thought it's kind of good to be honest about, like, how exhausting that is and how much it. Yeah. And just how much it, like, takes from you. And so I think the next thing I'm gonna do is, like, lie down, you know, and I'm gonna spend time with my children. And then, you know, and then whatever the next thing will be, will be. But I don't know yet. And I never really know. I'll probably know after then this.

[B]

Do you. The last time you were on the podcast, you told CH&I that you fought for Jacob Alordi's eyebrow piercing in Saltburn. What was an aesthetic decision you fought for in Wuthering Heights? The earring.

[D]

I mean. No, I didn't have to fight for the earring in the B, too. Are you kidding me? When he turned up in those people just fell over. Even, like, the grips who were like men in their 70s, like, bloody hell. You know, just, you know, it's kind of like, come on. But I think, look, the beard. The beard and the long hair, which I thought was, you know, I kind of always feel like we always have movies where women have a kind of makeover moment. So it's really. It's.

[B]

We love a male makeover.

[D]

We love a makeover. We love a reveal. Right? You're coming down the stairs in the red dress, and she's all. That is just parting in this film.

[B]

Did you film on the moors at all?

[D]

Yeah, of course. Did you.

[B]

How much time did you spend in Yorkshire? Because now we all want to go to the moors. We just did a travel story on where to stay in Yorkshire because we're all now dying to go traipsing around.

[D]

So beautiful that actually partly the reason we built so much of this was because Yorkshire's actually too beautiful to film that, like, actually sort of like the pictures you have of sunsets on your iPhone, you're like. Like, it's never. Like. It's so epic. It's so kind of prehistoric Yorkshire. It's. And it's also very like, why I think it's so exciting is it's kind of not beautiful in a sort of sweet way. It's hard. So. But we were there for, like, two weeks, and it was just the best. It was the best, but it was a nightmare because we had to shoot in studio first, which meant we, you know, filled it with rain and fog and, you know, all the things that Yorkshire has in February. And then we arrived in Yorkshire and everyone was like, well, we've never had weather like this. It was blazing sunshine for two weeks. And so it was. It was very. That was. That was tough, but it was amazing.

[B]

Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Reese is one of a book that I love, which is sort of an imagined origin story for Bertha from Jane Eyre. And I wonder if you could write your own separate story for a character in Wuthering Heights. Who would that be and what would it be?

[D]

It would be Nelly, which you sort of did.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But then after, you know, because in this movie, Nellie and Isabella leave together. And I think Nellie is a kind of Becky Sharp character, actually. I think she would survive on her wits and her. You know, and she's. Yeah. And I think also I just do anything to work with Honk because she's just so Becky Sharpe.

[B]

For those who book Clubbers who don't know is the sort of calculating but brilliant heroine of Vanity Fair, not the.

[D]

Magazine, although that would be a great crossover.

[B]

And I also. I'm very interested in sort of the mad woman tropes in Bronte novels. I've always been obsessed with Bertha from Jane Eyre. And Kathy goes mad even in the Tenant of Wildfell Hall. She's thought to be mad when she leaves her marriage. Cassie from Promising Young Woman is kind of a mad woman. I wonder, are women always described this way when they make a decision people don't agree with? Or did you want to make Kathy seem madder or more relatable?

[D]

I think, yes. I think we're always accused of being mad or stupid or, you know, promiscuous or whatever. You know, I mean, I think any kind of. Yeah, it's. I think. I mean, Cassie in Promising a Woman is. Yeah. She's called Cassandra because she's just telling the truth and everyone doesn't believe her.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I think that's just the most relatable feeling in the world. And I think that in this. In many ways, I think I have made. I think, made Kathy a little less mad. I don't think Kathy is mad. She goes mad in the book because. Because she's so distressed because she made a choice that has. That has ruined her life and that she felt was kind of damaging to her soul. But in. But I think that, you know, she's actually what she is, is, like, radical, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Kathy's just like. She's all feeling and she's cruel and she's sadistic and she's vain and spoiled. She's like all of these things. I think we have this idea of her just, like, as wild on the moors. I don't think that's what Emily Bronte meant entirely. She meant, like, she's wild emotionally. Cause she'll destroy people's lives. She, like, blows through people. She's, you know, Nelly says again and again that she likes to, like, provoke people and make them cry just so she can make friends again. Like, that is a dangerous female character. That's a dangerous person. We all know people like that. So, you know, I think that. That her madness was probably less interesting to me in the same way that Isabella. I feel like I wanted Isabella to have a little bit more.

[B]

Isabella was so fun.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, in the book, she's not fun. She's just sort of sad. But this. I mean, did you from the beginning know that she would be.

[D]

Well, I think, again, if I'M looking at it through my kind of 14 year old lens. I. I always kind of felt a bit more like Isabella than I felt like Kathy. Like I'd love to be the sort of glamorous, sort of local beauty, Kathy Earnshaw, but actually I was much more like an Isabella, like hoping to get a look in, hoping to get like seconds at the disco, you know. And so there's something very relatable to me about Isabella. And also Isabella, what is sort of fascinating about her and wonderful is like time and time again she is warned. The thing that she likes about Heathcliff is that he's dangerous and that she'll be able to escape what she thinks is she'll be able to escape this kind of life of sort of domestic boredom. Of course she doesn't know what she's sort of hurtling herself into. But like, I think there's something very. I think her sort of journey here is one that I think a lot of people maybe will feel, which is that we can. There are lots of us who want to stick our fingers in the socket and that there is some pleasure in that, in that horror. Even if it's, you know, not good.

[B]

I know when she had to give up her ribbon room, it's one of the saddest moments.

[D]

I know. And when she sort of. I mean, the ribbons, the letting go of the ribbons and the crafts.

[B]

I know we all want a ribbon room.

[D]

I know I really would love a ribbon room. I remember reading years ago that Tori Spelling's mother, Candy Spelling, like, what?

[B]

How is this like a foreign language?

[D]

How is this something. No, but I'm just thinking of all the things to know, all the things to remember. I remember that Candy Spelling had a wrapping room in her house.

[B]

That sounds right.

[D]

Is that true? And I was just like whenever I heard that, I would have been. That's the sort of demented world of thrushcross that it needed to be like that. These people were so rich and so bought that they would just like have a room for ribbons.

[B]

Last question. What was the most difficult thing to achieve in the demented world of thrushcross? Grange. Because there's the skin room. There's. I mean, what. Was there any detail that really took a lot of attention?

[D]

All of it.

[C]

Most.

[D]

I mean, all of it. Like, I think that's the thing is that working with Susie Davis is just like the most incredible production designer. It's just a constant. Like the things that I like are stuff like in Wuthering Heights, everything's covered in hair. You know, so there are these kind of like sort of sheepskin goatskin throws or there's like skin stretched on the way. And then at thrushcross, the underside of everything is hair. So the underside of the staircases and the, and the chairs are all hairy. And I just felt like that's the sort of like pleasure. And look, it's sort of, again, it's whether or not you kind of respond to that kind of like slightly, you know, people either like their suspension of disbelief to be engaged what they think or not. And so, so I'm always, I love, for me, it's like a daily process of where it's just far enough that I'm like interested in it, but not so far that it's like.

[B]

That's a perfect note to end on.

[A]

Thank you, Emerald.

[B]

Thank you so much for being here. I know you've done two interviews today.

[D]

Oh, no, it's lovely. Thank you for having me.

[B]

The run through with Vogue is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Catherine Milsop. This episode is engineered by Pran Bandy and Luke Moseley and mixed by Pran Bandy.

[C]

Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford, senior awards correspondent at Vanity Fair and co host of Little Gold Men. Oscar season is upon us. Little Gold Men takes you behind the scenes of the race for the biggest prize in Hollywood. There's 100 wrestlers in the room, but.

[B]

Only one can be Oscar nominated.

[C]

Whether you're a movie lover or an industry buff, Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair has everything you need to know about the this year's Oscar race. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts. From.

[D]

Prx.