How The Viral ‘Protect the Dolls’ and ‘Promote Homosexuality’ T-shirts Were Made

Summary

The Run-Through with Vogue: Episode Summary

Episode Title: How The Viral ‘Protect the Dolls’ and ‘Promote Homosexuality’ T-shirts Were Made
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host: Chloe Mao and Choma Nadi
Guests: Jose Crialas Unzueta, Connor Ives, Willie Norris, Emma Spector

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1. Introduction to Iconic T-shirts

The episode delves into the creation and impact of two influential T-shirts: Connor Ives' "Protect the Dolls" and Willie Norris' "Promote Homosexuality." Hosts Chloe Mao and Choma Nadi set the stage by highlighting the cultural significance and viral nature of these designs.

Choma Nadi (01:36):
“Our most esteemed colleague, Jose Crialas Unzueta spoke to two designers that we love, Connor Ives and Willie Norris, about two very iconic T-shirts that they have made.”

2. "Protect the Dolls" by Connor Ives

Connor Ives discusses the inception of the "Protect the Dolls" T-shirt, its unexpected viral success, and the substantial funds raised for Trans Lifeline.

Chloe Mao (03:57):
“Connor actually won the BFC Vogue Designer Fund this year and he was talking about how that T-shirt has raised almost $1 million.”

Connor Ives (28:59):
“It just aligned with a moment in the air or the right person saw it. Which I think speaks to the power of that community.”

The shirt's widespread adoption by celebrities like Pedro Pascal and Troye Sivan is highlighted, emphasizing its role in supporting transgender crisis support during a politically tense period.

Jose Crialas Unzueta (04:07):
“Connor's T-shirt Protect the Dolls has been everywhere... it's been a big staple in our household.”

3. "Promote Homosexuality" by Willie Norris

Willie Norris reflects on the creation of his "Promote Homosexuality" T-shirt, its reception within the LGBTQ+ community, and its cultural impact.

Willie Norris (17:31):
“Protect the Dolls has sort of become this phenomenon... promote homosexuality became a cultural sensation.”

The discussion touches on how the shirt resonated deeply within the community, fostering a sense of unity and pride without relying on corporate symbolism.

Chloe Mao (26:52):
“There's such power to saying protect the bricks, protect the dolls who don't, you know, who aren't the supermodel.”

4. Impact on Pride Fashion and Corporate Activism

The conversation transitions to the broader implications of these T-shirts on Pride fashion and the critique of corporate involvement.

Connor Ives (20:54):
“Is it beneficial to be thinking of corporations as almost like our friends... or can we seek that acknowledgment in our communities?”
Emma Spector (24:27):
“Corporate pride collaborations... give people money, but it’s not always perceived correctly.”

The hosts and guests discuss the phenomenon of "rainbow washing" and the diminishing authenticity of corporate-led Pride initiatives.

5. Community-Driven Initiatives vs. Corporate Efforts

Emphasizing grassroots movements, the guests advocate for more meaningful, community-driven actions over superficial corporate gestures.

Willie Norris (34:48):
“We're around the same age, the three of us. We grew up in the age of representation matters... now we're having all these conversations.”

Emma Spector (36:06):
“You need to distribute it... ensure that you are contributing to what you're saying on your chest.”

6. Expanding Beyond T-shirts: Future Directions

The episode explores how these initiatives can evolve, encouraging sustained community engagement and support beyond merchandise.

Connor Ives (37:32):
“We're not a for-profit product. We're ensuring all proceeds go to Trans Lifeline.”

Willie Norris (38:42):
“It's impact through real partnerships, not just slogans.”

7. Conclusion and Reflections

Wrapping up, the hosts and guests reflect on the power of fashion as a medium for activism and the responsibility that comes with visibility.

Willie Norris (42:18):
“You can wear a T-shirt that says something... make sure you're contributing to what you're saying.”

Connor Ives (43:43):
“Thank you both for being on the Run through. Happy Pride.”

The episode underscores the significance of authentic representation and the potential of fashion to drive meaningful social change.

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Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity Over Corporate Symbolism: Genuine community initiatives, like the "Protect the Dolls" and "Promote Homosexuality" T-shirts, have a deeper impact compared to corporate-led Pride efforts.
• Power of Community: Grassroots movements foster a stronger sense of unity and purpose within the LGBTQ+ community.
• Sustained Support: Beyond merchandise, ongoing support through organizations like Trans Lifeline is crucial for lasting change.
• Fashion as Activism: Clothing can serve as a powerful tool for advocacy, visibility, and fundraising within marginalized communities.

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Notable Quotes:

• Choma Nadi (03:57):
  “Connor actually won the BFC Vogue Designer Fund this year and he was talking about how that T-shirt has raised almost $1 million.”

• Willie Norris (20:54):
  “What's really interesting is that a lot of my friends who are part of the LGBTQ community within fashion are not necessarily engaging with pride directly, but because they engage with it as a concept, as an experience all year long.”

• Emma Spector (36:06):
  “You need to distribute it... ensure that you are contributing to what you're saying on your chest.”

---

This episode offers an insightful exploration of how fashion intersects with activism, highlighting the profound effects that well-crafted messages can have within and beyond the LGBTQ+ community.

Transcript

[Chloe Mao]

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[Choma Nadi]

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[Chloe Mao]

This is the Run through. I'm Chloe Mao. And I'm Choma Nadi Choma I'm so excited for today's show. Our most esteemed colleague, Jose Crialas Unzueta spoke to two designers that we love, Connor Ives and Willie Norris, about two very iconic T shirts that they have made. Connor Connor's T shirt Protect the Dolls has been everywhere. Pedro Pascal famously wore it and Troye Sivan wore it to perform with Charli XCX at Coachella. It has raised a ton of money for Trans Lifeline, a nonprofit providing crisis support for transgender individuals, which is amazing and very needed at this political moment. And Willie Norris famously made a shirt a few years ago that said promote homosexuality, which also took the world by storm. I actually went to my friend Catherine's wedding. Katherine Bernard, who Chamano used to work at Vogue with us and she and her wife are friends with Willie. And so Willie had promote homosexuality T shirts for people at the wedding and it was inflation on everything. I love that which was perfect. In Greenwich, Connecticut, Jose, Willie and Connor also discussed the state of pride fashion, the rainbow washing as our colleague Christian Allaire called it in a recent story for Vogue. Doctor of corporate clothing brands during Pride Month. And I really can't wait for everyone to listen to this convo. I thought it was really interesting because I feel like there's two conversations that have been happening for me. Culturally, it's like the very insider in the Vogue office of a lot of the, like the Vogue gays are like, we don't need Pride fashion. It's too corporate. Stop trying to use Pride Month to sort of push forward corporate agendas and marketing. But then outside of that, I'm seeing, we're all seeing such rollbacks on DEI and we've even heard from our commercial partners, like brands are not putting money behind Pride Month anymore. They're just not focusing on it. I went to Target in Virginia when I was visiting my in laws and they've completely taken away their Pride aisle. My mother in law, who's a very spunky lady, started going up to all the salespeople and asking, where's your Pride aisle this year? So that was interesting for everyone.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Wow.

[Chloe Mao]

But anyway, so I feel like this conversation was something that we had really been percolating in the office and I'm excited for everyone to hear what the three of them had to say.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Same. I'm so excited for this conversation. Connor actually won the BFC Vogue Designer Fund this year and he was talking about how that T shirt has raised almost $1 million.

[Chloe Mao]

Wow.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

And I think he mentions it in the interview and I think, you know, is this young designer who's establishing a business and now he's like virtually like running a nonprofit on the side. So I mean, obviously he's, he's super happy about it, but it's so encouraging to see people actually taking action and it catching a fire because we need to keep like, we need to get the pressure on, especially with all these rollb.

[Willie Norris]

Foreign.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

So before we get into our conversation, let's talk about the headlines. So honestly, I. This is the best news to happen today. Waking up to, to the news that Zoran Namdami is the actual Democratic mayoral, like candidate.

[Chloe Mao]

Look, people feel very strongly about Zorin. People feel very strongly that they don't like him. Uh, but many people, as we learned yesterday, feel very strongly that they do like him. What I will say is whatever you feel, it is incredible that he won just as a feat of a spectacular campaign. He, he's just the most telegenic young politician. I, I feel like there's sort of a frieza of like Obama. Definitely. Everyone compares him to aoc, which I feel like is sort of superficial. But I think that he really captivated people. And it is exciting. Whether you like him or not, or excited about what he stands for or not, there's an undeniable draw to what he's accomplished. And I have to say Emma Spector covered a fundraiser in Brooklyn that was sort of a creative class intelligentsia like Alison Roman and Sarah Sophie Flicker. And it was a fun piece about how Zorin had sort of captivated the. What I'll lovingly call the Brooklyn bobos, the bourgeois bohem, which is like what French people call sort of like fancy bohemians. But it's true that he really galvanized people in a way we haven't seen in a long time. And Emma wrote a really fun piece and interview with him about that, actually, the night of our pre med party. And Dean Majeed, who is a photographer who we like working with, took great photos of him. And very excitingly, our guest, Sarita Chowdhury, a couple weeks ago, our beloved Seema from. And just like that, she was in Zoran's mom Mira Nair's first film. And no way. Yes. Mississippi Masala.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Oh, my God. Of course, I didn't make the connection.

[Chloe Mao]

And she used to babysit Zoran. So that is very cute.

[Connor Ives]

Small, wild.

[Chloe Mao]

I know. But, Choma, what are you seeing? How is the news trickling through in Europe?

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

I didn't personally see it coming because obviously it's different when you're far away. And when I heard that Bill Clinton had endorsed Andrew Cuomo, I sort of felt like, well, the winds are going that way for someone so major to endorse Cuomo, even though personally, it felt a bit retrograde to go back to Andrew Cuomo after all this time. But, yeah, so happy to see this kind of bubbling up from afar. I think we need some good political news because God knows geopolitics at the moment is a dumpster fire. So enough said on that.

[Chloe Mao]

Choma, tell me what you are hearing across the channel in Paris for Men's Fashion Week.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Yeah, I mean, it felt like the Louis Vuitton show made a huge splash. There was a show at the Pompidou center, which is one of my favorite art institutions in Paris, and such an.

[Chloe Mao]

Iconic building which is about to close for a huge renovation. So that's probably why.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Yeah, it was a big coup for them to get that space. And the collection itself took cues from India, so there were references to cricket. And I think the Runway had snakes and ladders, which is originally a game from India.

[Chloe Mao]

I don't know that.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Yeah. And the clothes had that sort of laid back. There was some linen. There was some linen tailoring stuff that you would imagine, and kind of hot and humid weather. It made sense, I think, for the references were really subtle, but I think obviously Pharrell was thinking about how you take. How you take a wardrobe on the road. The brand is associated with traveling. You know, trunks are the other signature. So that. That was definitely in the back of his mind. And as usual, the front where was major, more major than usual. It was so funny to see two things coming through my social media feed at once. You had the show in Paris of Beyonce's show in Paris, and Olivier Estang was there celebrating and so happy to see his designs on the stage. And then you saw Beyonce sashay into the show in all her cowboy car glory, dressed in the Louis Vuitton flares, fully cowboyed out, and she just looked incredible. And I think that conversation about the album, I don't know whether it's something that had been percolating some seasons ago when Pharrell did his first collection, that was sort of a tick to cowboy culture, but it does feel like maybe they were in conversation about this idea of cowboy and that kind of iconic American cultural reference. So it was cool to see.

[Chloe Mao]

Good call. I forgot that they sort of were in lockstep on that and kind of got that rolling together.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

They did, didn't they? And so it was a kind of a full circle moment, in a way. And Jay Z was there looking amazing at his wife's side too, which was fab. And it just looked like a beautiful kind of show and night in Paris. But, you know, we're all also eagerly awaiting. I guess everybody is really waiting with bated breath to see what Jonathan Anderson does for his first collection at Dior. Everybody has been. Has been posting about the Dior invite, which is this ceramic plate with. With three eggs on it, which looks incredible, which is a very much a collectible piece. And it's very in keeping with Jonathan Anderson's sort of cerebral and surrealist references. And I think it's very chic to have an invite that you can actually keep often. I mean, I think our. Our colleague Hamish Bowles does collect invites, and over the years, there have been some beautiful ones I think we've talked about on this pod. But this one definitely seemed to be taking it to a whole new level where you have a collectible objet d' art to take home with you before you even gone to the show. So it'll be very interesting to see what he shows on Friday.

[Chloe Mao]

It's rare that there's such anticipation and such savvy snowball of rolling out little Easter eggs. Speaking of eggs for what is to come, you know, he had released a couple of images on the Close Friends feature on Instagram of Basquiat and Lee Radziwill and the iconic sort of Dior woven tote book, Tote. He released images of new ones. Bram Stoker's Dracula and Lady Chatterley's Lover. So we were talking yesterday of, like, what other books would you like to see on those totes? But I think it's been really savvy the way he's done it. And it'll be a big moment on Friday.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Totally. And, I mean, there are a couple of other debuts on the horizon. Julian Klausner, who will also be debuting his collection with Fries Van Houten. And then Michael Ryder, another much eagerly awaited debut with Celine. And I'll be going in for that show, which is next Sunday, I think, July 6th. So I'm super excited about that. Obviously, we always look forward to Willy's show. Willy Shivaria. Um, so I think it's shaping up to be a really sort of fun, fun men's week so far.

[Chloe Mao]

Yeah. We had Rick Owens on this week. Nicole chatted with him about his career retrospective, Rick Owens Temple of Love, which opens in Paris on June 29 and documents his career from his very first show in 2002 and timed to the new exhibition, he will obviously also have his menswear show. So, Choma, go check out the exhibition when you're in Paris.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

I know, I can't wait. Sally Singer actually wrote the piece, who is my former boss and dear friend, and it's fabulous. She wrote the piece for the magazine on the exhibit, and it sounds incredible.

[Chloe Mao]

I'm excited to read it. Choma, you know what else is happening on Friday?

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

I think I have a clue.

[Chloe Mao]

The Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez wedding on the canals of Venice is a very exciting weekend event. Guests have already started arriving and I think that we will be all eyes trained on the Rialto Bridge this weekend, seeing who is getting out of a gondola and what they're wearing.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Yeah, I'll be curious. I'll be curious to see what she'll wear. You know, I wonder, since she's in Italy, if she'll allot for Italian house. Dolce would obviously be something that she's worn in the past, but she could also go with Oscar de la Renta and make it more of an American in Italy. Affair. Who knows?

[Chloe Mao]

Elise Daler did a good piece on their wedding planners, Lanza and Boccina, who are sort of the most effete, chicest wedding planners in Europe. One of the things Elise talks about is how they, typically, for prospective couples, build in a warehouse a mock version of the wedding.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

And.

[Chloe Mao]

And in that, in some cases, that can include sand for a wedding in San Tropez. And so they completely create what the wedding will look like. The tablescapes, the cabana set up, the couches, the aisle. And I think that is absolutely wild. But so read all about that on.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Vogue.Com so you know what else is happening this weekend?

[Emma Spector]

What?

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Glastonbury. Oh, right, yeah, yeah. It's like. It's like the office as virtually cleared out because so many of our team are going to Glastonbury. I went to a couple of concerts. I am not going to Glastonbury. I still don't know if I can break my Glastonbury virginity at this point. But I did run into Cara Delevingne and Adu Erboa at the Little Sims concert, which took place over the weekend. And they were both really excited. They're regulars and they're going. And everyone was talking about the fact that Dochi will be performing, and Rhe and Neil Young, I mean, the lineup is pretty major. And I think it's just like a. It's more than a festival. It's. It's like a.

[Chloe Mao]

It's a lifestyle.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

Yeah, it's a lifestyle. But I did see Dua Lipa at Wembley Stadium.

[Chloe Mao]

Oh, my God. I saw your Instagram. It looked amazing.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

She brought out Charli xcx, which was super fun, and she's just on fire right now. I think she just. She's really, really at peak. And it was so. It was so fabulous. And she. To see her perform in front of such a big local audience, I think it made her very emotional. She was very in her feelings, and it was very cute. She sung some songs that she liked from the very beginning of her career, and it's a real beautiful moment. And I ran into Martin Rosa at the Dua Lipa concert with her daughter Fun, who is also a Dua Lipa fan. And, yeah, we took the subway home together. It was really cute to see them.

[Chloe Mao]

Awesome.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

We'll be back in just a moment with Connor, Willie, and Jose. Hi, it's Cho Minardi. If you're not on the Vogue app yet, what the hell are you doing? You can follow along with me and other editors as we talk. About everything happening in fashion. Think you're already a fashion expert? Well, find out how your Runway IQ stacks up against the Vogue community with an all new Runway genius leaderboard. So download the Vogue app today and you'll never miss a moment.

[Sarita Chowdhury]

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[Willie Norris]

Hi.

[Connor Ives]

Hey, girls.

[Jose Crialas Unzueta]

How are we?

[Willie Norris]

Welcome to the run through. I'm so happy to have you here. As you know, I sort of mentioned to you separately, we've been thinking a lot about pride. You know, it is June. It is Pride month, famously. But we mostly been thinking about the intersection of fashion and pride. And I think something we've been seeing, especially this year, but over the past two or three years is that pride as this sort of like corporate activation has changed quite a bit. You know, when I first moved to the US around 10 years ago, you would go to Target and it was like an explosion of rainbows, right? And it was kind of weird, kind of funny, but it also felt a little great. You know, it was like cute. And then now a lot of that has changed. Most corporate brands have sort of stepped away from the idea of pride. But what's really interesting is that something I've noticed is that a lot of my friends who are part of the LGBTQ community within fashion are not necessarily engaging with pride directly, but because they engage with it as a concept, as an experience all year long, right? Like, you don't need to sort of like drop a T shirt, drop a collaboration, drop a whatever in June just to sort of partake or to be a part of your community or to activate the community. You can just be. And I think you two are really interesting examples of what that looks like, actually, famously, because of two T shirts. So I am wearing one of them you know, Connor, you. You created this T shirt earlier this year, Protect the Dolls, which we've seen everywhere from Troy, Zivana, Coachella, to you on your very own Runway. Addison Rae wore it. Pedro Pascal has worn it. Heider Ackerman, designer's designer, has worn it. Like, so I think, you know, the list sort of, like, goes on. And Willi, I will never forget, when you drop the promote homosexuality T shirt, that sort of became this cultural sensation, I think, not just in New York, but in general, but specifically within the community where, like, everyone wanted this. But I'm just curious now that we've sort of set some context for the divas, how do y' all sort of see this concept of Pride fashion within your careers or also. But also as. As designers and as queer people yourselves?

[Connor Ives]

I was thinking a lot about this. Just when you, you know, shared the brief and stuff, the first thing I started thinking of was just kind of the conversations that I've had with my queer friends around, I guess, the context of Pride Month. And I feel like you kind of established this already where it's really nice to be seen and acknowledged, but simultaneously, you know, that experience that you're, like, walking into Target and seeing, like, I don't know, like, a peace sign with, like, you know, a rainbow flag on it, and it says something like, terrible, you know, and you're like, work. Okay. You know, love the effort. But, like, I don't identify with that, and I feel like that critique was mainly coming from queer people, you know? And, like, I think even the other day, it was like someone walking through a Target, and it was like, like, les and then a B and then N. So, like, that was their idea of, like, I was like, pride merch.

[Willie Norris]

Yeah.

[Connor Ives]

This is, like, what we're gonna do. This is our novel thing and stuff. So I guess, you know, the disconnect there always felt very palpable. And I feel like it's something as well that you just maybe become accustomed to as a queer person, you know, where like, even just that feeling of being seen is sometimes fraught, I guess, in a way that I think, to me, you know, maybe just the redialing of it this year, while, you know, it might have been influenced by kind of political movements of, you know, the last year, things like that, maybe it's also a depiction of, like, the root cause of this or maybe the issues with this as well. Going back to that question almost of, like, is it beneficial to be thinking of corporations as almost like, our friends, you know, or, like, do we Need. Do we need that acknowledgement from Target? You know, can we maybe seek that acknowledgement in, you know, the communities that we find ourselves in? You know, can we do that through, I don't know, other forms of education that maybe starts to break down those walls in maybe more in a meaningful ways? I mean, I'm saying this all ironically because here I am doing a T shirt that kind of fits into the same mold of that. But, I mean, there was even a reluctance there. I don't know if, Willy, you felt the same way, but I felt like a lot of the conversations I had was just around this concept of the T shirt economy, you know, and like, that. It's so great that you can sell these T shirts, promote that money to a cause, but it. You know, it'd be so nice if that extended to something that, you know, maybe was like a little bit more direct, meaningful action and stuff, and maybe that becomes the next step with these kind of movements.

[Willie Norris]

Right. I mean, I think, you know, what's really interesting is sort of this farter. Set some context before we give Willy the floor. You know, Connor's Protect the Dolls T shirt that walked on his Runway earlier this year has sort of become this phenomenon, but is also actually, you know, after it walked the Runway, after it went viral, after people started asking about it, Conor decided to sell it. And the proceeds go to Trans Lifeline, which is a. An organization started by trans people to protect trans people. And, you know, Doll is for everyone listening that is not necessarily aware. Doll is a. It's a colloquialism that started in the ballroom community in the US to refer to trans woman. It's a term of endearment that has sort of expanded throughout the community, has reverberated in the community, and now has also even similarly to other words that queer people use, like Twink, for instance, has gone outside of the community and in so many ways lost some of its meaning. Right. Which is also interesting on itself. But, you know, I'm curious, Willy, based on all this, that Connor was talking about this idea of, like, you know, do we need to be seen by a corporation? Like, do we need. Do we need a pride logo to sort of feel seen? I sometimes go two ways about this where, like, maybe we don't, right? Like, we live in London, in New York. We're sort of like, very lucky to be surrounded by people like us consistently and constantly and at all times. Right? But there are people that perhaps sort of really do benefit from the idea of just knowing that there is a rainbow out there for them to find it, you know.

[Connor Ives]

Exactly.

[Emma Spector]

Okay. So I think that in general, I think we're like spinning into butter a little bit. If we start to use corporate or business or any kind of anything related to representation as it relates to the bottom line of a company. If we start seeing like kind of corporate co signing as a, a metric of like our belief value, it's really sinister territory that we get that we, that we get into. And so like I think that we should expect absolutely nothing from corporations is, is the truth because it's just not setting ourselves up for fishing, you know. You know, it's not, it's not. We're not teaching ourselves how to, how to, how to fish. We're just like eating the fish. There's a part of kind of this corporate pride collaborations, I mean I've done them before that I'm really grateful for because they give people money and that is really of corporate pride for me is actually an exchange of money. Yes, yes, and, and yeah, well and fairly and without making it a money in exchange for like charity really. You know, because sometimes that's, that's how it can kind of, you know, be like perceived.

[Connor Ives]

Right?

[Willie Norris]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Choma Nadi]

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[Willie Norris]

I'm curious to sort of going back to the concept of the T shirt, right? Like the sort of the T shirt as a statement. I'd love to actually start with promote homosexuality Willy, because I again like I remember that was sort of like a moment where it felt like everyone had this T shirt. Everyone wanted to have this T shirt. Everyone made knockoffs of this T shirt. Like I remember even you posting some of them because some of them were actually quite funny.

[Emma Spector]

So good.

[Willie Norris]

You know, like some of them, yeah, were actually really fab. It was really funny in so many ways. Right. But I'm curious like what's kind of the inception of, of that project, right, that was part of Willie Norris Workshop, which was your sort of like eponymous label.

[Emma Spector]

The purpose of it was to, you know, wear a slogan to a gay party and get laid from the T shirt and truly signal what I was trying to, you know, put out in the world. That is how deep it is and was and will be forever. It's whenever from my end, however it gets out in the world and it begins to, you know, kind of get layers of meaning and on top of it is so fab. But that's entirely like not my job like that. Like, that is. That's the magic of kind of putting a product into the world, is that it's a little bit out of your hands once it's out there. And then I wore it out and then people liked it and I was like, oh, so I guess other people, like, want to say that they, like promote homosexuality too, whatever that means, and made a bunch. And there's just something. It just. It's. It's very similar to what happened with Connor's shirt, is that it just was at the right. It just. It just aligned. Everything was in congruence with a moment in the air or the right person saw it. The right person told their right friend who saw it. And it's hard to disagree with. And if you disagree with it, then, okay, well, then you just showed your ass.

[Willie Norris]

Right. That. Exactly. That tells. That says something that says more about you than it does about me, which is really interesting.

[Connor Ives]

Exactly.

[Willie Norris]

Connor, you've sort of told me this story when I interviewed you about it in April back. You know, it just feels like forever ago. But what was kind of the inspiration? 10 year trip. I know girls, so many lives. But what was that moment, like the genesis of Protect the Doll? Because I remember similarly, perhaps to Willy, like, you weren't sort of making this T shirt as like, hey, I'm going to change the world, or like every celebrity are going to wear this. You were making something for you to wear at the end of your show.

[Connor Ives]

Everything that Willi just said was like pretty much the same experience that I had where, like, the thought process of it was maybe something to kind of serve my own, you know, narrative in my head. There was never a thought with it where we were kind of like, oh, and this is going to be a huge thing and we're going to turn it into this thing and we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And I think it was really just. I mean, even the initial conception of it was like I was in fittings. Hunter Piper, who opened our show that season, you know, just kind of like shooting the shit ultimately and just kind of being like, oh, my God, this world is doomed. And also just kind of like lamenting on the idea of like, oh, well, you know, might as well put on a T shirt or something. You Know, saying that in like, kind of a facetious way, but then having no idea of like, what would come of that. I remember even like my boyfriend and I, like, going to bed the night before the show of like, I mean, not really going to bed. It was like four in the morning and we were like, okay, we'll take.

[Willie Norris]

Like a 15 minute nap sitting down.

[Connor Ives]

Yeah, exactly. And really kind of like even us kind of weighing, I guess, the eventual responsibility that would come with, you know, putting a slogan like that out there. And I mean, he was kind of playing devil's advocate in the way of just like, I hope you kind of know, like, what this could potentially bring or something. So there was some maybe like, indications of like, well, in a best case scenario, you know, we'll, I don't know, sell like 2, 300 of the, like, that was like best case scenario in my head back then. And then it turns into something totally different. But all of that being fostered by the community itself, whether it's like actual, you know, LGBT people or allies, that was kind of what made it into something else. Which I think speaks to the power of that community and is further kind of reasoning for, you know, the sentiment itself.

[Willie Norris]

Right.

[Emma Spector]

I have really enjoyed. I'm not sure if you've seen her, but Star Amarasu, she's fab. She, She's a real. In my mind, she's a, she's a movie star. Like, she's, she's truly one of, one of the most talented people on Instagram. And you know, she, she has done put had a spin on the shirt. She has. She. I've seen, I've seen her wear two. I've seen her wear one that says, you know, connect the dolls to their dreams. And she also is wearing one today that said protect the bricks. And I, I think, I think for me, when I saw that, that made me. That made like the original shirt, like almost more powerful in a way because it was a kind of one plus one equals three scenario. A brick is a colloquial term for a trans woman that doesn't pass.

[Willie Norris]

Oh, interesting. Not the lights turning on.

[Emma Spector]

Yeah. To me it was always like, I always saw it as, you know, a couple years ago, I was like, oh my God, imagine being called a brick. That would be the worst thing in the world. And now I think it's the most beautiful, beautiful thing in the world. And I think there is such power to saying protect the bricks, protect the dolls who don't, you know, who aren't the feminists who aren't the supermodel.

[Willie Norris]

Which is fine.

[Emma Spector]

Who are the supermodel? Yeah. And, yeah, I think. I think bricks are sexy as hell.

[Willie Norris]

I love that. And I. Yeah, we love bricks in so many contexts, there is such impact to items like the ones you both made, because in so many ways, they're made by us, for us, in a way. All of these questions that I think become really interesting and become sort of like a wider conversation about, you know, how fashion and pride, not pride as, like, a parade that happens every year in New York, but pride as, like. Or, you know, so many cities in the world, but pride as a feeling kind of exists. Right. Like, coexist together. I think that's what's really interesting to me. Right. Like, I think it has a much wider impact, especially in the. On the age of the Internet, as opposed to, like, a charcuterie board that says, like, slay, exclamation mark. Right. Which, like, totally, you know, but, like, you know what I mean? I think there's, like, there's. There's more to learn from. As Logan or the questioning off by some, like, person on Twitter who doesn't have a profile picture.

[Emma Spector]

Yeah.

[Willie Norris]

Then, you know, like, a rainbow of.

[Connor Ives]

Rome, the pride platter at Applebee's. Or, like, I mean, I don't know, because, like.

[Willie Norris]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, it's. Well, it's interesting because, like, I think, you know, we. We're, like, around all. We're around the same age, the three of us. And it's really interesting because we grew up in, like, the age of representation matters.

[Emma Spector]

Right.

[Willie Norris]

Like, where totally quote, unquote, representation was enough. Like, oh, my God, there's, like, someone gay in this one show. And they're hitting in the background work, I guess I'm seeing.

[Emma Spector]

Yeah.

[Willie Norris]

You know, and we're. We've questioned that to the point where now we're having all these conversations.

[Emma Spector]

Yeah. I think it, like, just boils down to, like, okay, like, you can. You can wear. You can wear a T shirt that says something on it. Like, it's okay. Like, you know, like. Right.

[Willie Norris]

It's fine.

[Emma Spector]

Like, it, like, it, like, doesn't have to, like, be a dissertation always immediately upon, you know, entering a room where you have to explain Lane, you know, the history, whatever it is. But, you know, you. You do have to use your reasonable human judgment and facilities to, like, really just make sure that you are doing something that is contributing to what you're saying on your chest.

[Willie Norris]

Right.

[Emma Spector]

And it doesn't always have to be the most public thing in the world. You don't have to po. You don't have to post something every day about it. You don't have to, you know, whip yourself in the back and repent. You just. You kind of do have to align your life a little bit with the message that you're saying. And. And that's the challenge, and that is also the journey and the joy of it all. Like. Like, if you're wearing a promote homosexuality shirt, you're either. I mean, either need you at. To go, you know, make out in the corner.

[Willie Norris]

Promote it.

[Emma Spector]

Promote it, or I need you for.

[Connor Ives]

In.

[Emma Spector]

In this case, I thought this was a really good manifestation of it. I need you to partner with. With. With me to raise money for an organization. For example, I did these eye masks with a skincare brand called do. And. And it just said promote homosexuality on the eye mask. And you know, part of my pitch for that, that project was that 100% of the proceeds go. 100%, which is. That's not normal. Go to. Go to Glitz. Gay and lesbians in a transgender society.

[Willie Norris]

Yeah. You've raised, I think I saw it was like around $35,000 and counting. A couple.

[Emma Spector]

Yes.

[Willie Norris]

Maybe like a week or.

[Emma Spector]

$35,000. Yeah. They donated to Glitz just based. Just, you know, based on a simple, you know, just plugging in these two words that I had to an existing kind of like, system that had going. And it was ultimately a rather like, low lift kind of product.

[Willie Norris]

Right.

[Emma Spector]

But just. Just having someone in a business that runs a business, see, okay, I have facilities and operations in place now where I can kind of. We can plug this in and make. Make a Re. Make a real impact for people. That, to me, that's like the. That is the. That that I think people, you know, should be operating at. And I do this with all of my pride collaborations and. Or anything. This wasn't even a pride collaboration, like Pride Month, but any collaboration I do, I. It's. It's. It's on. It's on the permanent rider for me.

[Connor Ives]

Right.

[Emma Spector]

You know, there's. There. There has to be like. There has to be a. You can't make money off of this. You know what I mean? That's it. The corp, the corporation, the company. You. You can't make the profit off of this. You need to kind of. You need to. You need to distribute it. You need. You need a. I mean, show me what you're really. Yeah.

[Willie Norris]

I mean, I remember, Willie, when you did the away partnership. I think the first one was 2023. And then you did it again last year.

[Chloe Mao]

Right.

[Willie Norris]

I remember that the first. The gag of the first one was that it was like a collaboration, but it was released, but it wasn't for sale. Like, it was sort of, like, sent to a couple people, and it was just like, hey, we did it great. And everyone was kind of living for it. And then last year, you did it again, and then this time it was like, you know, you could actually purchase a product. And then away was. Was donating, I think, up to $30,000 as well. Connor, when we spoke in April, you had raised around $70,000. I can't imagine where you are now, because it's been a minute. Yeah. But again, you know, that is. That is really incredible, right? Because I remember we sort of had this conversation about, like, you're like, I can't believe, like, it's really. It's a T shirt. Just like, I can't believe this is like, you know, but. But that's also what's really great about it, right? Like, just kind of like, allowing people to partake, not just into. Into what has become a cultural phenomenon, but also into the world of Connor Ives and, like, discover your world through this. One item, I think, is also really special. Yeah.

[Connor Ives]

I mean, I think the last. Last time I checked, we were like, hovering right now under, like, 980k in sales. So then I think, like, it's. I think that's 700k that then goes to Trans Lifeline. I know it's pounds as well, so it's, like, nearing like a million dollars.

[Willie Norris]

Which we know, important. It's. You're donating all the proceeds. Like, you know, when you sort of make that conversion, the only money you're not donating is the money that you need to fulfill the orders. Right. Like, for context, which means the making the T shirt and the sending the T shirt just so sort of the listener gets more context.

[Connor Ives]

Exactly. And it's crazy as well that, like, I mean, prior to this, we had never had an experience in that kind of sale or, you know, how that even works and stuff. I mean, we didn't have. Have a warehouse like, we pack. I mean, like, as of four months ago, like, I was packing up ecom borders, like, with my team and stuff, because it was just kind of like, I'm really particular about how a box gets taped up because I'm a psychopath. So I think, like, you know, building that out and, like, learning almost, how do you do this on a larger scale was a lot of the lesson. But Then also then having to remind everyone that's working on this, like, like this is a charitable project, you know, and like we did, we definitely received some support there. I mean the, the printing factory that we were working with were like, oh, we can apply a, you know, 10 discount order and stuff. That it's nice when you can see people kind of pay it forward and pitch in in the same way where you know, at the end of the day, we're all living in a capitalist society. We all need to like eat and live off of these things. But you know, we made it clear from the beginning of like, we're not, this isn't a for profit product. I've had conversations with, you know, people around me and even stores writing to us being like, we love the viral T shirt. You know, like, and then they're like, we wanna, we wanna stock it in our stores. And I'm like, okay, you know, so you can buy it for wholesale, which basically we would do the wholesale as the £75 to ensure that like, you know, the money is going to them. But then you also have to commit all of your sales to a chosen organization. And that's when the conversations fall apart. Because obviously, like, you know, I think retail, you know, it's own story right now, but it's not really, you know, they can't really take the risk of, I don't know, doing something like that that would probably surely, you know, do better even than our ready to wear items and stuff. The point of it is visibility and exposure and you know, again, starting with conversation and stuff. I think for, you know, that visibility to kind of take proper effect. You know, LGBT people have to be in that boardroom. You know, you have to be having these conversations with those people, ensuring that, you know, like the messaging there is correct. Ultimately that's probably why we're ending up with T shirts that say les, you know, bmoji. And you know, it's like that I could almost guarantee you was not dreamed up by a gay person if it was, I'm so sorry. To that person out there.

[Willie Norris]

I mean, it's, it's the absurdity of, of where we are.

[Emma Spector]

And like, I think, yes.

[Willie Norris]

You know, that's also what we do really well as a community. Yeah. You know.

[Emma Spector]

Yes.

[Willie Norris]

I consistently think that we are extremely funny to different levels. Right. And so much of that fun.

[Emma Spector]

Yeah.

[Willie Norris]

Is is the self deprecation, the ability to sort of like laugh at yourself and at each other, to sort of, you know, I think that's sort of what's really important, really special about it. But I think, again, that's. That's what's really interesting, I think, about the two of you is just like, I think the reason why, you know, I've always been really interested in the way designers that belong to a community feel about this kind of stuff is because for us, it's like it's a Wednesday, right? Like, it's just another day and then making something factory, you know, like, you're like, yeah, you're. We're always kind of like self referencing. We're always looking at each other. It's a making something factory. Honey, that is good.

[Emma Spector]

That's a podcast.

[Willie Norris]

Put it on a T shirt. Put it on a T shirt. I, I just. To close out, I want to go back to sort of the sentiment that you both shared, which is like, you know, the. Say it with their chest, but also, which I guess is the name of the podcast. They say it with their chest, but also like, you know, go. Go past the saying it. Right. I think, again, what's really been interesting about all of these sort of very famous, very cool, very fashiony people that have worn Connor's T shirt is that like, you know, they're wearing it, they're buying it, they're linking to it, and now they're also, I'm sure, having these conversations just like, okay, like, I wore it, so now, now I need to, like, make sure I'm a real one. Right? Because now we, we also, as a community ask those questions and I think that's what's really important. So, yeah, I mean, thank you both for being on the Run through. Happy Pride.

[Connor Ives]

Thank you. Thank you, Jose.

[Willie Norris]

Just, just.

[Connor Ives]

Just some girls in the. What was it? The Making a Factory.

[Willie Norris]

The Making something Factory.

[Emma Spector]

Making Something Factory.

[Connor Ives]

Yeah. Three girls in the making stuff.

[Willie Norris]

Exactly, exactly.

[Choma Nadi]

All right, that's it for the show.

[Chloe Mao]

See you next week. The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Joanna Solotarov. It's engineered by Jake Loomis and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global audio.

[Choma Nadi]

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[Connor Ives]

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