March 27, 2025

Summary

The Run-Through with Vogue Episode: March 27, 2025 | Release Date: March 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Run-Through with Vogue, hosts Chioma Nnadi and Chloe Mal delve into the latest happenings within the fashion world. The episode features an insightful conversation with fashion icon Penelope Tree, discussions on significant industry shakeups, highlights from Vogue’s Vintage Week, and notable stories that have captivated the Vogue community.

Industry News and Shakeups

Nicole Phelps, director of Vogue Runway, joins Chloe Mal and Cho Menardi for a special host summit to discuss major developments in the fashion industry.

• Loewe's New Leadership: Nicole reports that Jack and Lazaro of Prenza Schooler have been appointed as the new co-creative directors of Loewe, succeeding Jonathan Anderson after 11 impactful years. She shares, “They are in their early 40s and starting anew in Paris, a place they've always wanted to live” (03:10).

• Mugler's Creative Shift: The house of Mugler has seen a significant change with the exit of Casey Cadwalader and the introduction of Miguel Castro Freitas as the new designer. Nicole comments on Miguel's extensive background, stating, “He has been working behind the scenes for two decades” (05:04).

• Trend Towards Experienced Designers: There is a noticeable shift in the industry favoring seasoned designers with substantial experience over independent or social media-driven talent. Nicole highlights, “Designers who actually know how to make clothes that resonate on a retail level are in high demand” (07:19).

• Upcoming September Events: The hosts anticipate a bustling September, dubbed “September to Remember,” with numerous high-profile debuts and transitions, including Demna’s move from Balenciaga to Gucci and ongoing questions about Jonathan Anderson’s future plans (07:30).

Vogue World Hollywood and Fashion Initiatives

• Vogue World Hollywood Launch: Announced at a glittering press conference at Paramount Studios, Vogue World Hollywood will feature costume designers supporting the entertainment community affected by the Los Angeles wildfires. Chloe mentions, “We are getting into Vogue World season, and everyone's very excited” (08:13).

• Vintage Week Highlights: Vintage Week is in full swing at Vogue, featuring a vintage sale in London and New York with proceeds benefiting wildfire victims. Highlighted items include Kendall Jenner’s vintage Dior pieces and Karen Elson’s Givenchy top by Riccardo Tisci. Cho shares her excitement about the unique pieces available, saying, “We have our extremely exciting vintage sale happening this weekend” (09:35).

Vintage Week Highlights

Chioma, Cho, and Nicole discuss the allure of the vintage sale, emphasizing rare finds and the stories behind them. Notable items include:

• Taylor Swift’s Stacey Benditt Dress: A dress worn by Taylor Swift at the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame in 2011 is expected to be a sought-after piece (11:02).

• Princess Beatrice’s Personal Story: Cho highlights the heartfelt response to Princess Beatrice’s story about her premature baby, noting its universal resonance (14:11).

• Teen Vogue’s Exclusive Interview: The episode touches on Teen Vogue’s impactful interview with Vivian Wilson, Elon Musk’s daughter, which has generated significant buzz (15:08).

Featured Interview: Penelope Tree

The episode features an extensive interview with fashion icon Penelope Tree, conducted by Cho Menardi and Julia Hobbs. Penelope shares her nostalgic journey into the world of vintage fashion during the 1960s in London.

Journey into Vintage Fashion

Penelope recounts her experiences navigating the Chelsea Antique Market, describing the eclectic mix of vintage couture and iconic visitors:

“Marianne Faithfulls and Brian Jones... you can see Jimi Hendrix,” Penelope reminisces about the vibrant scene (24:28).

Influential Figures and Memorable Moments

She discusses her collaboration with legendary photographer David Bailey, detailing their professional and personal relationship:

“Working with Bailey... we really clicked,” Penelope reflects on the impact of their collaboration (30:19).

Transition to Writing

Later in life, Penelope transitioned from modeling to writing, inspired by her rich experiences and a desire to explore deeper personal narratives:

“I had to look inwards and find something beyond appearance,” she explains about her motivation to write her first novel at 74 (42:33).

Notable Stories and Highlights

• Vogue’s Protein Moment: Chloe and Cho discuss the popular Vogue.com feature on achieving 100 grams of protein, sharing humorous personal anecdotes about meeting the nutritional target (13:07).

• Theater and Cultural Events: The hosts highlight major theater openings and events, including the reopening of the Frick Collection and new Broadway productions, adding cultural depth to the episode (12:30).

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a brief promotion of the Vogue app and a teaser for the upcoming interview with Penelope Tree. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with Vogue’s latest content and stay tuned for more in-depth conversations and industry insights.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Phelps on Loewe's New Directors:

  “They are in their early 40s and starting anew in Paris, a place they've always wanted to live” (03:10).

• Cho Menardi on Vintage Finds:

  “We have our extremely exciting vintage sale happening this weekend” (09:35).

• Penelope Tree on Working with David Bailey:

  “Working with Bailey... we really clicked” (30:19).

• Penelope Tree on Writing Her Novel:

  “I had to look inwards and find something beyond appearance” (42:33).

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Timestamp Reference:

• Timestamps are indicated in brackets (MM:SS) corresponding to the transcript sections where the quotes appear.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the March 27, 2025 episode of The Run-Through with Vogue, providing a comprehensive overview of key discussions, insightful interviews, and significant industry updates for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Chloe Mal]

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[Cho Menardi]

And I'm Cho Menardi. And this week on the show I spoke with the wonderful icon Penelope Tree. She was on the show with my colleague Julia Hobbs, who's British Vogue's fashion features director.

[Chloe Mal]

I am so excited to hear this conversation.

[Cho Menardi]

Oh my God. Yeah. She's honestly got stories for days we could have. She talked a little bit about her marriage and love affair with David Bailey. It was very. It was really cool. It was really, really cool. I love it.

[Chloe Mal]

So fun.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah. And Julia actually commissioned Penelope to write a piece for our new issue. And it's so good. And it's just all about the birth of vintage. And about that time in the 60s when Penelope was just kind of coming up on the scene and London was just this amazing kind of place to be. And as far as vintage, the place to be was the Chelsea market. And you can literally find vintage Schiaparelli Couture. Wow. You know, you could spot one of the Rolling Stones shopping. It was just like, I mean, it was hard to talk to her about current vintage. Cause she was just like, it just doesn't compare. You cannot find the kind of things that you did. So I'm really excited for you guys.

[Chloe Mal]

To Hear this conversation before we get to the interview. Nicole Phelps, we are thrilled to have you here joining us for a special host summit, a meeting of the minds on yet another round of industry shakeups. Tell us everything. Give us a little, I feel like it's like a sports recap of the highlights of the week.

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, Monday morning we woke up to the news that had broken many hours earlier in Paris that Jack and Lazaro from Prenza Schooler, designers who Vogue has been following since they were 21 years.

[Chloe Mal]

Old are going since Lazaro famously wrote a note on a delta napkin and passed it to Anna in first class asking about internships.

[Nicole Phelps]

The greatest origin story in New York fashion. I think they are going to Loewe. They are the new co creative directors of Loewe where Jonathan Anderson recently stepped down after 11 years. And how exciting for them to be, you know, in their early 40s and starting and starting anew and to be in Paris, a place where they've always wanted to live and to inherit a brand that, you know, really is just going from strength to strength. Incredible accessories at Loewe, obviously. And Jonathan was, was making really inventive, inventive clothes and some of the, the most fun fashion shows I think around. So they've really inherited a very cool brand and now it is theirs to, to play with. So a big moment for them.

[Chloe Mal]

We still don't know who is going to be designing Parenza Schooler.

[Nicole Phelps]

The last time I was there, which was in February to see their, the new collection. They were in the process of interviewing contenders for the creative director job at Prenza Schooler. They said they were about, that's, you know, halfway through at that point. So maybe, maybe soon we'll know. Wow.

[Chloe Mal]

And then Tuesday there was more news.

[Nicole Phelps]

Tuesday there's more news. Mugler, the house that Terry Mugler built for, for its perfumes, of course, Casey Cadwalader, who has been there for about seven years as creative director, exited and a new designer by the name of Miguel Castro Freitas was installed. And the interesting thing about this is that really he is almost nobody knows anything about him.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay, that makes me feel better because I was like, I'm not familiar with this gentleman.

[Cho Menardi]

Me either.

[Nicole Phelps]

He too is in his, in his early 40s, I would say. He is a graduate of Central St. Martin's I think. And John Galliano gave him his first job actually in fashion at Dior. And for two decades now he has been working behind the scenes. He worked for Stefano Pilates at St. Laurent. He worked for Albert Albaz, the late great designer of Longvin, he was at Dries Van Noten. He actually intersected with Julian Claustner briefly, who's the new creative director of Dries Van Noten. And most recently, he was at Sportmax. And so Mugler, a very different kind of label and heritage than sports. Sport Max, obviously super sexy. Super. I mean, confrontational is too strong a word, but very out there. Fashion, beloved of red carpet divas from Beyonce to Jerry hall back in the day. It'll be his big moment later this year too, along with everybody. It's gonna be the September to remember. Oh, I love that.

[Chloe Mal]

Let's TM that.

[Cho Menardi]

Exactly, exactly. We're gonna need to do it September to remember.

[Nicole Phelps]

Like, we should do something September to remember.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

All right.

[Cho Menardi]

I mean, do you feel like with Miguel, the trend for behind the scenes people is continuing? It does feel like the industry's kind of doubling down on that message, that it's not about appointing kind of an independent designer who's, who's built their own brand. But like, let's, let's, let's let people who have really put the work in behind the scenes to have a moment.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yeah, I think so. It's not about an Internet or a social media disruptor getting, getting the job, which was a thing once upon a time. I think CEOs and headhunters are looking for people with a lot of experience and probably the state of the economy and luxury fashion struggles right now play a lot into that. Laura Guibot at Vogue Business wrote a piece about Miguel, and one of the people she quoted, I think it was one of the headhunters said that they're looking for product people now. Designers who actually know how to make clothes that resonate. Resonate on a, you know, on a retail level.

[Cho Menardi]

That makes sense.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay, so is this the new normal? Are we just going to be doing this every week that there's just scrambled. It's like scrambled eggs of fashion.

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, knowing that Demna has left Balenciaga to go to Gucci, we know that there is another really big announcement coming sometime soon. And of course, there is the question of Jonathan Anderson and where he is going and when, when that announcement is coming. Maybe after those two big announcements happen, we'll be nearing, nearing the end of this, of this cycle. You know, it's all building up to this September, as I mentioned, like, there's just going to be so many massive, massive debuts. But also then Michael Ryder at Celine, he has a June, July debut because he's showing, I think, somewhere between the men's and the in couture.

[Chloe Mal]

In other fashion news, it was announced this morning in a very starry, glittery press conference on the Paramount Studios lot all the details about Vogue World Hollywood. It was announcing all the costume designers who will be involved with the affair. And 100% of the ticket proceeds will go to the entertainment community fund with a focus on supporting the costume community professionals impacted by the Los Angeles wildfires. So it's feeling like we're getting into Vogue world season and everyone's very excited. I mean, we're really in met season, but never, never too soon.

[Nicole Phelps]

It's the seven month countdown.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, exactly. And as I'm sure you've heard by now, especially from beloved Lynn Yeager, it is vintage week here at Vogue. And we have our extremely exciting vintage sale happening in both London and New York this weekend, with also proceeds going to victims of the Los Angeles wildfires, along with so much great coverage on both sites in the magazine, including our guide to the best vintage stores around the world, which has been updated beautifully from last year. All kinds of wonderful essays and explainers. Choma, what are you excited about in the London sale?

[Cho Menardi]

This is my thing. This is my thing. So I have my eye on several things. I actually have to make sure I have myself give myself a limit. There are some wonderful pieces by Martin Rose. I'm super excited about that. I need to make sure I have some restraint about who donated those. Those were sourced on. Those were sourced on ebay. As editors, we've all had a really fun time looking for, like, really rare, cool pieces.

[Nicole Phelps]

Super fun.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah. Which has been fun. And then as far as. And then we're also. I guess this is more of a future vintage item, but the custom Burberry suit that was on the COVID of the April issue will be on sale, which is super exciting. Penelope has also donated pieces. When she came into the studio, she brought a bag of pieces.

[Nicole Phelps]

No.

[Cho Menardi]

Wow. What about you guys?

[Chloe Mal]

Some of our teammates here, our colleagues have snuck down like little mice into the to the 20th floor to see the pieces that are available before or they moved to the free VIP sale. Yes, exactly.

[Nicole Phelps]

There's a lot of provenance. Lots of good products.

[Chloe Mal]

There's a lot of provenance. I'm trying to pull up the article about Kendall Jenner Provenance.

[Penelope Tree]

Yes.

[Chloe Mal]

Kendall Jenner donated some Dior.

[Nicole Phelps]

Some vintage John Galliano era Dior.

[Cho Menardi]

Wow.

[Nicole Phelps]

And Karen Elson has given us a givenchy top that Riccardo Tisci made himself and gave to her.

[Cho Menardi]

Wow.

[Nicole Phelps]

And those are two Big highlights. Story about the highlights, a dress that Taylor Swift wore by Stacey Bend it of Alice and Olivia, which I imagine will fetch quite a bit of money, given the fact that Taylor Swift wore it at the Nashville Songwriters hall of Fame induction ceremony in 2011. Going back, that's wild. Almost a decade and a half.

[Chloe Mal]

I think it's going to be really fun. I'm excited to see who comes. Alice Albert might be joining for part of it. She keeps her grubby hands to herself. Yeah, Choma, it's a really fun, you know, first first weeks of spring moment in New York. I had the best time at the the Frick collection is reopening after five years of the most intensive renovation that Annabelle Selldorf masterminded. And it is so spectacular. They've nearly doubled the gallery size in the museum by opening up the second floor and adding many different new spaces that somehow seamlessly fit with the beautiful old mansion. It's a big few weeks for theater openings. The Othello opening was very starry. Anna went with Colman Domingo on her arm, as one does. I'm supposed to go to the picture of Dorian Gray opening tomorrow night, which I'm really excited about, with Sarah Snook playing all the roles.

[Cho Menardi]

That's.

[Chloe Mal]

That's the thing this season, an actor playing all the roles. Apparently Andrew Scott doing that in Vanya is mesmerizing me. Marley, Chelsea and Stephanie saw Purpose last week, which is so good. Oh, well, as you'll hear, we are interviewing Brandon Jacobs Jenkins soon about that, which I'm very excited about. It just feels like a really starry, big theater season on Broadway. So, Choma, I hope you feel fomo, because I always feel that way about the West End.

[Cho Menardi]

Oh, really?

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Cho Menardi]

I know. I'm going to see the Seagull this next week. And we did a big piece in the magazine. It's with Cate Blanchett, Emma Corrin. The cast is kind of incredible. So I'm excited to go see that next week.

[Chloe Mal]

I mean, I have to tell you, Choma, I don't know if this has been as much a thing for your team on your website, but we had a big protein moment on vogue.com this weekend.

[Cho Menardi]

I know. I've. I've heard. I've heard about this protein moment. It's so funny because that is my entire algorithm, like, how to get 100 grams of protein, really.

[Chloe Mal]

I mean, I don't know why I'm.

[Cho Menardi]

Such a target of this, but, like, it has. I am like, there is not, there is not enough like chicken. I can eat apparently before I hit my goal. It's quite, it's quite challenging.

[Nicole Phelps]

Protein's very important for women.

[Cho Menardi]

Yes, yes.

[Nicole Phelps]

We don't get enough of it. I heard that it's not just 100 grams. I heard it's the number of grams you are on your weight.

[Cho Menardi]

Yes, right.

[Nicole Phelps]

So even more than 100 grams. You guys.

[Chloe Mal]

I had, I said Katie and Margot this weekend. I was like, who's looking at this? I'm impressed. But yes, it's a lot of hard.

[Nicole Phelps]

Boiled eggs, let's put it that way.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah. We had our best performing story, Princess Beatrice.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, my God. Tell me everything about how that happened.

[Cho Menardi]

She actually approached us. Her baby was born prematurely and I think she wanted to use it as a moment to sort of like tell her own story, but also kind of acknowledge that, of course, yeah, she's far more privileged than the average person. But those fears, those things that happen, those moments are kind of universal. And I thought it was really a really touching moment, really a sort of a great thing for her to do. And we got a lot of responses from our readers. I think it resonated in a way that was very like humanizing for her. And I think it was also like lovely to see that sort of candid moment with her, with her child. That picture of her that was in that held the peace.

[Chloe Mal]

I was very touched by her description. She said, my life has been nothing ordinary about the way I've grown up. However, the experience of being completely panicked about having a child preterm is. And I thought that was a nice way to sort of frame that.

[Cho Menardi]

I thought so too.

[Chloe Mal]

And then another big story this week was Teen Vogue's coup of having Vivian Wilson on the COVID of Teen Vogue. Elon Musk's 20 year old daughter. That story felt exactly right at the right moment. The interview is wild. Ellie Yerman met with her over several zooms and she, she really doesn't hold back the punches. And so I was really excited to see Teen Vogue have that big moment.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah, I mean, she's a hero to me.

[Chloe Mal]

Nicole, thank you so much for joining us. As ever, we love hearing the behind the scenes of the fantasy football switch ups in fashion world.

[Nicole Phelps]

Thanks for having me.

[Cho Menardi]

We will be back in a moment with Penelope Tree and my colleague Julia Hobbs. Hi, it's Cho Minardi. If you're not on the Vogue app yet, what the hell are you doing? You can follow along with me and other editors as we talk about everything happening in fashion. Think you're already a fashion Expert. Well, find out how your Runway IQ stacks up against the Vogue community with an all new Runway genius leaderboard. So download the Vogue app today, and you'll never miss a moment. Hi, Penelope.

[Penelope Tree]

Hi, Shoma.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah, welcome to the show. And we're so excited about your piece. It was such a great addition to the vintage issue. It's one of my favorites. I know Julia commissioned this piece, and I would love for you two to talk about how it came together.

[Penelope Tree]

Thank you. Yeah, I love that. I'm thrilled that you like the piece.

[Julia Hobbs]

There's actually quite a good story on how Penelope and I met.

[Cho Menardi]

Oh, really?

[Julia Hobbs]

You have to tell it. So we actually met backstage at the Oxfam fashion show, which everybody's wearing pieces that have been thrifted. And Penelope's standing behind me wearing this yellow rainmac with the hood up. And I was wearing the banana T shirt, which was originally styled in British Vogue. The first ever fashion shoot that British Vogue did, which was all thrifted clothes styled by Bay Garnett. And so, yeah, I pinched her T shirt, basically, and Penelope was behind me. And I actually was incredibly starstruck. Penelope.

[Penelope Tree]

Oh, please. I was.

[Julia Hobbs]

I know you're gonna hate this. I was. But I said, would you consider writing for Vogue? And you said, yeah, I would love to do a designer interview. And I sort of took that away. And when Chioma was asking for ideas for this vintage themed issue, which is a subject so close to your heart. So close to my heart. I thought of you. And as someone who could take us.

[Penelope Tree]

Back to a place who is vintage.

[Julia Hobbs]

Not true. Who's an icon who could take us back to this moment where vintage as we know it and the cult and the culture around wearing vintage clothes was born. Penelope, which was 1967 or 1963. Do you want to take us back there?

[Penelope Tree]

Okay. Well, I grew up in New York, but my parents came to London every June and July, and I used to come with them. And they had a very social life going on. So I was left a lot to my own devices. I had another friend who was in the same situation. So we lived close to the Kings Road, and we'd go out, and obviously the Beatles had just burst onto the scene, and we were completely Beatle maniacs. I mean, and as a couple of summers rolled by, pretty much everybody under 40 or 50, all the women were wearing these very short skirts and strappy shoes, and, you know, they had long, straight hair and looked like Pattie Boyd or, you know, Julie Christie or tried to. Anyway, that was cool. And we Wanted desperately to be like them. And so, you know, as we got a bit older, we started going to Biba. And that was a complete and utter thrill as well, because you could buy an entire biba outfit for £5 in those days.

[Julia Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Penelope Tree]

Wow. Yeah. Including a feather boa.

[Julia Hobbs]

Can't relate, Penelope.

[Penelope Tree]

No. So then in 1967, I came over to London because I had a summer job in a publishing company. And for the first time, I stayed in a kind of B and B in Park Street, Chelsea. And I had a very kind of like, upright, fastidious landlady who kind of looked at me in horror as I went out the door in these very short skirts and, you know, painted on eyelashes and.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah, where did that come. Where did you get the idea from? Because it became such a signature for you. And I just think it's such a strong beauty signature.

[Penelope Tree]

I think I just wanted to make my eyes look huge. And so it was just a way of doing that. And I think, you know, people were doing it at the time. I don't think I invented it, I'm afraid, but I think I exaggerated it a bit. And that's the way I went to the office in the morning, like this very fusty old office. And I went down the Kings road on a 22 bus every morning and came back every. And I started to see in the summer of 1967 that the really cool kids on the street were not so much wearing Dolly with sort of the whole mod look had kind of gone out the window. They were wearing a much more sort of layered, romantic look. Long skirts and lots of sort of shawls and fringes and beads and ruffled shirts. The men were all wearing kind of like military jackets with brass buttons and also these ruffly shirts and very tight velvet jeans in all kinds of different colors. So on Saturday morning, I started to kind of follow some of these kids to see where they were shopping and ended up in the Chelsea Antique Market on the King's Road.

[Julia Hobbs]

And this is where you take us for the story, which I love, because the thing about this piece is that we're so with you as a reader. We're there on the 22 bus with our eyelashes painted on, and you sort of got the scent of where this now legendary vintage dealer was trading from. And I think this is something today, Cherme. You know, we love to look at vintage, and there's tons of vintage dealers small and large around. But really what this person, Vern Lambert, was doing at the Chelsea market was completely original in the Times. Can you take us there? Tell us about him.

[Penelope Tree]

So Vern Lambert seemed to me to be about sort of 55. In fact, he was probably in his late 20s. He was very shy and introverted. And he had two stalls in the Chelsea Antique Market. On the ground floor, he had a stall selling men's clothes, which were all these military jackets and ruffled shirts, sort of like Byronesque shirts. But on the first floor there was this cave, like Grotto, which you could hardly get in the door because it was so full of clothes. Everything that you can imagine, from Poiret, you know, from Couture to, I don't know, American baseball jackets to, you know, things that really weren't being sold at the time. And Verne would be sitting on the floor with a huge garbage bag full of old clothes, sorting through them. He never said a word to anybody. But he had two extremely flamboyant helpers, shop assistants, who never stopped talking and were in love with the clothes. And they dressed in the clothes as well. They looked amazing. This is where I followed all these different people who were buying clothes from Verne at the time, like Marianne Faithful and Brian Jones and, I don't know, Jimi Hendrix, even I saw there once.

[Cho Menardi]

That's a great sight.

[Penelope Tree]

Yeah, it was. The thing is, at the time, on the King's Road, everybody walked down the King's Road. Only the Beatles were too famous to walk down the King's Road. The Stones all were there, you know, Julie Christie and pretty much, you know, Michael Caine. Everybody that you can think of who was sort of famous at the time were all gathered around and the Chelsea Antique Market was the hub.

[Cho Menardi]

Do you remember any specific pieces that you bought from Verne or that you scored at the Chelsea Antiques Market that stand out in your mind?

[Penelope Tree]

Well, he was very big on cut velvet. So I had this beautiful cut velvet jacket that went down to sort of below my knees and had fringes. And I absolutely loved that. It was in a kind of teal blue, and it was. I don't know what era it was from, but I loved it. And there were, I don't know, all sorts of things like fringed suede jackets, like cowboy jackets, but with very deep fringes and wonderful beaded boleros. I remember having a beaded bolero which went with everything, and then these 40s biased cut sort of cocktail dress or rather sort of tea dresses that went below the knees and made out of beautiful material if they didn't quite fit the modern body, which had changed a lot, I guess. Since the 40s and 30s, he would upcycle. He had a wonderful eye and he really just knew how to. And, you know, the way he got the clothes was interesting too, because he'd started. He came from Melbourne and he started out sort of selling antiques and he had a big show or, you know, he had a show of wonderful glass vases in the King's Cross somewhere, some, you know, remote gallery. Because the King's Cross was very remote in those days, believe it or not.

[Julia Hobbs]

That backwater of King's Cross.

[Penelope Tree]

Yeah, it totally was, yeah. And so he had this exhibition and just sort of as a last minute thing, he discovered a trunk of beaded clothes from the twenties, beaded dresses from the twenties. And so he hung them up. I can't quite visualize this scene, but he hung them up and everybody went for the dresses and nobody bought the vases. And.

[Julia Hobbs]

But it's also quite interesting how he sourced the clothes because he had a network of what were then known as rag and bone men that went round the country knocking on the doors of stately homes and asking what was in the attic. And I loved you recounting this story within the piece because that's almost why the clothes was such a mixed bag. It was a bit of a military jacket, Edwardian. It might have been a 1920s cocktail dress because it was kind of thrifted as a bundle, a random assortment of clothes.

[Penelope Tree]

Exactly.

[Julia Hobbs]

And that's what defined this original bohemian era that London was the beating heart of.

[Penelope Tree]

Exactly. And those rag and bone men used to go around. I know this makes me sound like I'm 400 years old, but they went around in carts drawn by horses. So it's, you know, extraordinary to think.

[Julia Hobbs]

And they would say, rag and bone.

[Penelope Tree]

Rag and bone, rag and bone.

[Julia Hobbs]

But you've talked a little bit about the famous faces that would promenade on the King's Road. And of course you, Penelope, were one of the faces that defined that decade and that style and many decades in style since. What was your big discovery moment when you burst onto the scene as this new face?

[Penelope Tree]

Oh, well, I was really lucky enough to go to Truman Capote's famous now black and white ball in, I think it was 1966 and I was still 16 and I sort of knew what I wanted to wear, which was a dress that was based very much on ballet, modern ballet clothes. So I went to this new designer called Betsy Johnson, who had just graduated from Pratt Institute. She worked for this shop in New York, fabulous shop called Paraphernalia, which was the answer to be New York's answer to Biba. And anyway, she came up with this incredibly beautifully cut, very naked black dress. And somehow it caught the imagination of fashion writers there. And it was just a fluke, basically. And I think it was partly because I went very simple. Didn't wear any. Wore tons of makeup, but didn't wear any jewelry or anything like that. And most of the women went decked in Florida, you know, sort of feathers and jewels and things like that. And so somebody who just went totally simple was noticeable.

[Julia Hobbs]

We have a beautiful image which runs with your story in the April issue, which is a photograph that David Bailey took of you, doll, like, in a beautiful bohemian dress. And we all fell in love with this picture. You worked so closely with Bailey and there are so many pictures that you shared with me. I think we had five or six emails where it's all these different attachments of wonderful images from that moment in the 60s. Do you have a favorite picture or a favorite memory from shooting at that time with Bailey?

[Penelope Tree]

Well, all I can say is that our relationship started in vogue House in 1967 because I met Bea Miller, the editor in chief, at a party and she said, would you. You know, she was quite sort of headmistress like, and rather scary. And she said, come in and lunchtime tomorrow, I'd like you to meet somebody. And so I went in at lunchtime and went into her office, which was pitch dark at the time, and she was going through, I guess, contact sheets or something. I don't know why it was pitch dark, but her assistant put on the light and there was Bailey sitting on the floor cross legged, looking at contact sheets. I just. We had one of those moments where everything changes and goes misty and goes electric and, you know, strange things that happen. And so a few days later I did a sitting with him and he was quite frightening to work for because he was both very critical and very funny at the same time. So I sort of felt like a frog on a. You know, being dissected in a biology class or something. But somehow we really clicked afterwards because he was doing a shot on Proko Harem and he'd sort of run out of ideas and he's like, help me, help me. And so I sat on the floor. I don't know what I did, but anyway, it sort of worked and I sort of knew that we had this sort of quite deep connection. But I was going back to university in America and I knew that he was married, so I didn't sort of linger. And the next year we got together and I came to London to live with him.

[Julia Hobbs]

And your collaboration, the work that came through that, and it was a true collaboration, Penelope, because you know, what you bring in front of the camera and your ideas.

[Penelope Tree]

He wouldn't think that.

[Julia Hobbs]

Well, we're saying it now, for the record.

[Cho Menardi]

Too bad.

[Penelope Tree]

Too bad. Yeah. He was very directive. I mean, I had been working a lot with Avedon in New York, so when I went to the Black and White Ball, Avedon saw me and told Diana Vreeland that he wanted to work with me, which was thrilling. And a couple of weeks later, I was working with him. And he was very collaborative. He had this absolutely amazing team, and he was such a team worker. Even though he was very much the, you know, the boss, he made you feel like you were doing everything. He knew how to do it. He was extraordinarily kind and fun to work with. So I'd had that experience. And then to be with Bailey, who was much more directive, was a bit of a shock. And we had, you know, quite a lot of rows, actually, especially at the beginning when we were very in love. I think we did our best work together. Yeah.

[Cho Menardi]

Our conversation with Penelope Tree continues right after a quick break.

[Chloe Mal]

Working at Vanity Fair, our entire lives revolve around press screenings, premieres, film festivals, Q&As, set visits, award ceremonies.

[Nicole Phelps]

Not that we're complaining, it's pretty great.

[Chloe Mal]

But you know that feeling when you.

[Nicole Phelps]

See a new film or show and.

[Chloe Mal]

You want to talk about it with everyone immediately?

[Nicole Phelps]

We feel that all the time.

[Chloe Mal]

Yes, we sure do. I'm Richard Lawson. I'm David Canfield. And I'm Rebecca Ford. On Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's flagship entertainment podcast, we discuss today's most exciting films and TV shows. David and I are fresh off attending the LA premiere last night. Break down the latest developments in the awards races. Gomez and Grande split the pop girly vote and catch up with Hollywood's biggest movers and shakers. Demi Moore, welcome to the show.

[Penelope Tree]

Thank you for having me.

[Chloe Mal]

Whether you're a casual viewer or an industry buff, this is the podcast for you. New episodes are published every Tuesday and Thursday. Follow and listen to Little Gold Men wherever you get your podcasts.

[Julia Hobbs]

Okay, fast forward a little bit of time to the past fashion month in Milan, being on the Fendi Runway. Talk us through this experience. Do you enjoy being on the Runway and being backstage and what's different and exciting now?

[Penelope Tree]

I really enjoy the Runway experience lately, but in the past, when I was in my teens, you used to have to change like four or five or six or seven times in a show and put on all these different outfits. It was chaos. There were people, like, you know, yelling, and everybody was, like, having tantrums because it was so tense and so it wasn't fun. And nowadays you just. It's very spoiling. You just get one or two outfits at the most, and you're with all these absolutely fabulous young models or models from every walk of life. And I really enjoyed talking to them. And I love the whole experience of seeing how a show is put together. And all the fantastic seamstresses that work for Fendi, for instance, are so inspiring.

[Julia Hobbs]

It was beautiful, the collection.

[Penelope Tree]

Yeah, she did a great job, Sylvia Pendy, and she's very family orientated, and I really love that about her. She makes you feel that you're part of a family.

[Julia Hobbs]

Right. Actually, that is a good segue because we were talking about vintage clothes that you'd saved. And when Penelope and I were chatting through the piece and what it might speak about, I said, have you saved much stuff? You know, what have you got? And you were like, no, I've moved so many times that so many of the clothes that you had from back in the day have not traveled with you as you've moved from Australia and other places.

[Penelope Tree]

I have one blouse.

[Julia Hobbs]

I have one blouse from that time.

[Penelope Tree]

Which is one of those Romanian blouses that are embroidered, you know, on the sleeves. It's white cheesecloth with blue embroidery. But the difference is the embroidery is so beautifully done. I'll show it to you sometime. I would love it anyway. I love that piece.

[Julia Hobbs]

And then there's some pieces that your daughter has got that she's which. And I said, good for her when we were talking about this. I said, good for her, as she should swipe the good stuff. Does she, you know, has she loved over the years to kind of dive into your wardrobe?

[Penelope Tree]

She definitely has. And that is why my wardrobe is quite depleted. But fair enough. I mean, I love her wearing my clothes anyway. It's a good excuse to go and get some more.

[Cho Menardi]

Is there one that got away? Is there things that you got rid of that you wish? Oh, I wish. All you lost in the moves, all.

[Penelope Tree]

The Ozzie Clark clothes that I had in the late 60s, early 70s, because he really was the most innovative designer, even though he kind of copied a lot of things from the 40s, but the way that he did it in his own. In Celia Burtwell's fabrics, and, you know, he used to be able to come in to a table where there was a bolt of fabric, and without looking at a pattern, take his scissors and just cut a dress. Wow. Out. And it would be perfect. I adored all my clothes from Ozzy, sort of more than anything else.

[Cho Menardi]

They're very. They're very collectible and very hard to find now.

[Penelope Tree]

Yes.

[Julia Hobbs]

Super rare.

[Cho Menardi]

Do you still like to go vintage shopping? Is it something that you like? I mean, I know you're wearing Bella Freud now. I know it's probably more recent, but do you. Do you like to go vintage shopping?

[Penelope Tree]

I do, and sometimes I'll have a bout of looking online to find things, but ever since I started writing more seriously, I just don't have the time to go online and trawl for hours.

[Cho Menardi]

It's a commitment.

[Penelope Tree]

It really is. Yeah. I think you have to be obsessed, and I'm not really obsessed anymore. I mean, I live in the country and it's a whole different world.

[Cho Menardi]

I mean, it must be interesting to see how, you know, how your daughter's generation wears vintage, how they combine things. I mean, what do you think of the scene now? We see vintage has become part of the red carpet. You know, people think of these pieces as very collectible, and I think there's a real respect for it. Like, what's your impression of it? And what have you learned from watching your daughter get dressed in your clothes?

[Penelope Tree]

What I'd say about vintage is that I think it's completely wonderful now that they've discovered beautiful old, you know, couture, you know, rediscovered couture. Beautiful clothes that were so wonderfully made and that they're not sort of chucked away and they're respected, but it's sort of taken a little bit of the joy away from shopping now that couture clothes online are so completely out of, you know, out of reach financially.

[Cho Menardi]

So you can't just find a Schiaparelli lying on a heap in a.

[Penelope Tree]

No.

[Julia Hobbs]

Out of a bin or a.

[Cho Menardi]

In a cavern in Chelsea.

[Penelope Tree]

Nope. You can still find wonderful things, but it's just harder these days and it's just sort of. So there's something very precious about it. Whereas I love the whole thing of the 60s and 70s where it was just sort of random what you found and a bit kind of easygoing times.

[Cho Menardi]

You talked about writing. But I also know you're a big reader, and I wanted to ask you what books you're reading at the moment.

[Penelope Tree]

Okay. Well, I've just finished Alan Hollinghurst's book called Our Evenings, which I enjoyed a lot. I mean, he's such a Beautiful writer. And I'm reading a book at the moment called James by Percival Everett. And I've been reading a lot about that whole group of people in the 50s, like Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and Bill Burroughs, because that era interests me a lot. So there are a lot of related books about that.

[Cho Menardi]

And what inspired you to write. Cause I love that you wrote your first novel at 74, which I think is incredible because you were saying you'll have a novel in you, and I'm like, I don't think I have a novel in me. But what inspired you to write your first novel? And are you planning to write another one?

[Penelope Tree]

I am planning to write another one, but I'm sort of procrastinating terribly about it. I do have an idea and I keep sort of doing more research and more research to kind of avoid beginning. But what inspired me was that I had had a lot of experiences as a model and with David Bailey and that whole era, which was sort of my coming of age, age about 17 to 23, and I became quite well known and was successful model and everything. And then everything went pear shaped. At a certain point. I had to completely change my whole idea of who I was. I had to really sort of, you know, the. Sorry, the relationship with Bailey was over. I felt at the age of 23, like I'd done everything that I, you know, probably would do in my life. And I really had to kind of look inwards and find something that was beyond appearance, you know, sort of like a deeper level of living. And so it was really about that experience. And I just knew that I had to write about was really important because certain things, when I thought about them, still irked me and pained me as well. And interestingly, during the writing of the whole story, that pain gradually dissipated.

[Cho Menardi]

What a wonderful way to sort of work through some of those things, to be able to put them on the page and kind of let them go.

[Penelope Tree]

Make them into something else, I think. Make different memories. Because it's interesting if you write fiction, but it's based on your life, that if you fictionalize your life, when you look back on it again, it's as if. But you're remembering things that you've actually written rather than what actually happened.

[Cho Menardi]

Right. And the new one, you're thinking about the source material.

[Penelope Tree]

Yeah, it is sort of set in the 50s and around that era of Jack Kerouac. But I don't really want to talk more about it because I think it's sort of.

[Cho Menardi]

It's percolating right now.

[Penelope Tree]

It's percolating and also kind of like if you talk about it too much, it's like you've already written it.

[Cho Menardi]

Yeah. No, no, no. You can't. You can't. But your reading list gave us a hint at where you're going.

[Penelope Tree]

Yeah.

[Cho Menardi]

Well, Penelope, it was so wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

[Penelope Tree]

Oh, I've really enjoyed it, talking to both of you.

[Cho Menardi]

That's it for the show. Bye.

[Chloe Mal]

The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Joanna Solotarov. It's engineered by Jake Loomis, Luke Mosley, and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Stephanie Kariuchi is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global Audio.

[Nicole Phelps]

I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Chloe Mal]

I'm Nomi Fry.

[Penelope Tree]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Chloe Mal]

And this is Critics at Large, a.

[Penelope Tree]

New Yorker podcast for the culturally curious.

[Nicole Phelps]

Each week we're going to talk about a big idea that's showing up across the cultural landscape, and we'll trace it through all the mediums we books, movies, television, music, art.

[Chloe Mal]

And I always want to talk about celebrity gossip, too, of course. What are you guys excited to cover.

[Nicole Phelps]

In the next few months?

[Chloe Mal]

There's a new translation of the Iliad that's coming out.

[Penelope Tree]

Emily Wilson.

[Chloe Mal]

Really excited to see whether I can read the Iliad again, whether I'm that literate. I mean, the jury is out.

[Nicole Phelps]

I can't wait to hear Adam Driver go again in an Italian accent in Michael Mann's Ferrari. He can't stop. I mean, and bless him, I can't wait.

[Chloe Mal]

Molto beneath.

[Penelope Tree]

We hope you'll join us for new episodes each Thursday. Follow Critics at Large today.

[Chloe Mal]

Wherever you get podcasts, you really don't want to miss this. Don't, don't miss this.

[Nicole Phelps]

Don't miss it.

[Chloe Mal]

See you soon.

[Cho Menardi]

From prx.