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- [00:01]
Sponsor
This episode of the Run through is brought to you by eBay. EBay. It's the place to fall in love with new, pre loved vintage and rare fashion over and over again. Your favorite designers, expertly authenticated. Yes, ebay. Things people love.
- [00:22]
Nicole Phelps
This is the Run Through. I'm Nicole Phelps. I'm here in the studio today with my colleague and frequent run through guest, Laird Borelli Pearson. Thanks, Lair.
- [00:32]
Laird Borelli Pearson
Thank you for having me, Nicole.
- [00:34]
Nicole Phelps
Today we have a conversation with the legendary Norma Kamali. She has been a fixture in the fashion industry for almost 60 years, which is unbelievable and has had an absolutely fantastic career. Laird, how did you first learn about Norma?
- [00:49]
Laird Borelli Pearson
I remember the Vogue shoot with the sweats, a sweat outfit, a dress I think with big shoulder pads and of course knew the sleeping bag coat. But I had, thanks to you who assigned me to review Norma maybe about four or five years ago, she's become one of my. The people I admire most. We have long appointments where we talk, of course, about the collection. But then she has a spidey sense for what's happening in the world and she's always moving on and she's first. So it was just a dream to be able to join you in talking with her today.
- [01:29]
Nicole Phelps
I think everyone will agree that Norma has a very fast moving brain. We had such a great visit with her in the studio. She talked about her early days, her love of AI and how she's planning to live to 121. Here's our conversation with Norma Kamali. Welcome, Norma. Thank you so much for being here with Laird and me.
- [01:53]
Norma Kamali
Thank you very much. So excited. I'm thrilled.
- [01:56]
Nicole Phelps
We have wanted to have you on the podcast for a long time. It turns out you are turning 80 this summer. For most people, 80 is a big milestone, but you think a little bit differently about it, is that right?
- [02:09]
Norma Kamali
Well, it is a milestone, but my theory is if I celebrate makes it bigger than I envisioning 80 to be. I would like to take that to celebrate 100 since my end game is 121. Now I heard that 120 is. There are more people living to 121. So 121. So if you live for the long game, celebrating 80 is maybe a little too premature. Right? So 100. So the dance party will have to wait till 100. As far as the birthday goes, dance parties we love a lot.
- [02:55]
Laird Borelli Pearson
If we can't celebrate 80 with a party party, we can celebrate your impact over the past 57 years. Can you tell us what you consider your first breakthrough There Were actually.
- [03:10]
Norma Kamali
There were so many. There were the little ones. My first shop was on East 53rd street, and it was in the basement, so you had to look down to see the window. And I did everything possible to get attention for people to look down. And I had no idea that there were two editors, one a Vogue editor and one a bizarre editor, living on 53rd street down one other avenue. And they would walk past every day, and they noticed, you know, my screaming up to take a look. Take a look. And they came in, and I had. Within the first six months, I had a full page in Vogue. And bizarre hero was the photographer of the bizarro. And so that was like, they're gonna find out that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and they're taking pictures of my. Like, I'm gonna get found out. This is. But it was also, wow, maybe I should do this. Maybe this is really what's important for me to do. So it's things like that that I think every designer who's starting those little recognitions that are so critical to getting you through when you feel like there's just no way anything good can happen, you know, so you're bluffing your way through. Then when I did this collection, all of a sudden, a lot of people knew about it, and it was really just a game changer. I never had any money to pay for anything. I would just be okay, I need this for fabric. I need this for labor. I need let it and kind of patch it together. But it was the first time I actually had a bank account that had any meaning. Not amazing meaning, but enough to feel like I may be able to make it through this year or, you know, step at a time. So there's a lot of that that I remember in my life of ups and downs, and it continues, you know, it could be Covid. It could be tariffs. It could be anything. If own business, you're constantly responsible for a lot of people, and it's just the business side of it is really part of the dance.
- [05:52]
Nicole Phelps
Can you talk about that sweats collection? It's an idea that has resonated, you know, decades later. In fact, Laird was pointing out that she saw a lot of sweats materials on the fall runways. How did that idea come to you to make fashion clothes in a material that had been strictly for sports? People in the gym.
- [06:14]
Norma Kamali
Yeah. So in the context of the times. So Studio 54 was just reached its peak, and it was. You know, there were all of those things that were going on, and all of the sparkles and the color and all of that just overwhelmed fashion. And there was a point where I was feeling gray. You know, like, gray is where I wanna go. And I was doing my swimwear collection, and I thought, I need to do coverups for swimwear. And I love swimming. And in fact, I used to climb over the fence in the park across the street from my house and swim at night in the summer. Got caught once, and police got me. But other than that, my swimming in the public pool would be. I'd put on my brother's sweatshirt, gray sweatshirt, to soak up the water and then go swimming again. And I thought, that's what I'll do. I'll get gray sweatshirt fabric and do coverups. And so I got so excited because the coverups looked so fresh and great. And then I thought maybe I should do a suit or a gown or, you know, everything. So I did 36 pieces of very unique styles in gray sweatshirting. And I had. My history was that all of the department stores would come into my shop. They would buy samples. I would see full pages in the newspapers with Bloomingdale's and all the. You know. And they were my clothes. But I wasn't paying any rent with that money. And I thought, I am so afraid to put this in my store because it won't be mine. So I was introduced to Sidney Kimmel, who had Jones Apparel at the time. And I had a friend who was a lawyer. And I said, I need a lawyer. I need your help. And he said, well, these are the things you should ask for. And he gave me a list of things. I had no idea what I was doing. I had a little steno pad. And he said, I'd like to see the collection. I said, I'm really afraid to show it to you. And he said, well, I hear it's really great, but what is it you would like for it? And I said, I would like the following. He said, a license agreement. And I had the percentage, the fee, like, everything. And he said, okay. And he shook my hand, and I was like, I don't understand this business stuff, obviously, but we had a deal, and we started to get a lot of press, and there were lines outside of these big department stores everywhere out into the street. And I thought, wow, this is really amazing. Because in my gut, I was feeling, this is so new. This is so great, and it's gray sweatshirting. And that was sort of. The timing was right. And the idea of casual sportswear wasn't sort of a concocted theory I had, it just accidentally evolved and intuitively felt right.
- [09:54]
Laird Borelli Pearson
Now, another one of your most famous inventions also deals with comfort or transforming something that is functional into fashion, which is the sleeping bag coat. Can we hear in your words, how that came about and why it's still going strong?
- [10:12]
Norma Kamali
So I love camping. I used to love camping. I don't camp as much now, and I love the rapids and, you know, canoeing, all of that. And I would go camping every weekend, and I had sleeping bag coats, tents, the whole deal. And one sort of late summer night, it was really, really cold. And typically get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom in the woods. And I was like, I'm taking my sleeping bag with me, and I had it wrapped. And as I'm walking, I'm thinking, I need to put sleeves in this. I need to put a collar on it. And so I took that same sleeping bag when I got home, and I couldn't wait to cut it up. And I cut it up and I had no waste at all. I used every single piece of it, except for the zipper that I took off. And I thought, this is great. It's so warm and it's so comfortable that you just want to sleep in it and you feel cozy. So then I just started doing them out of sleeping bags. And I would buy all kinds of sleeping bags with ducks and geese flying, you know, with flannel and the inside and great colors. And then it just really took off. And I started to then make them from scratch using the NASA concept, where it's. You make two coats and you sew them together, and there's an air pocket in between. So the heat from your body goes out to the air pocket and the cold from outside goes to the air pocket and it exchanges there. And so that simple concept, which is actually a NASA concept, like I said, really keeps you warm. And the. You know, depending on the fabrics, the coat can be lightened and easy to. And you roll it up and put it away in the summer and take it out every year.
- [12:27]
Nicole Phelps
I wanna interject here because I think young people might not understand. They might ask, well, that sounds like a puffer jacket, but we're talking about a time when people dressed very differently than they do today.
- [12:41]
Norma Kamali
Right.
- [12:41]
Nicole Phelps
People wore dress coats made of wool. So can you take us back to that moment? How different were these ideas about comfort and style and wrapping those together compared to what else was going on?
- [12:55]
Norma Kamali
Right. So there was the benefit of this 60s revolution where things were radically different than before. However, There were protocols. People were still, for example, traveling on planes dressed up like you got dressed to travel, even in the 70s. I mean, it's just you did. So there were styles that just didn't exist then. I mean, I remember the first time I did stretch pants and I bought the fabric at a fabric store that sold fabric for the circus. And it was girdle fabric that stretched and they were. I got black satin and pink. And I remember I had my first fashion show and I put these stretch pants in the show. And like people thought I had lost my mind because nobody wore clothes that were like that, that were fitted to the body in that way. So there are silhouettes and shapes that didn't exist at the time. And a big puffy shape like that just didn't exist. It didn't exist in any other form, which is what you were saying. There were more tailored styles or leather jackets did exist, and suede, obviously 70s, but that big shape or skinny fitted pants, there were things that just didn't fit to the time. And so active sportswear came later. It evolved later and it was actually sort of around that. The terry, the gray fleece. There was then this next evolution of clothes like this. And in fact, I remember working with a company to do cotton Lycra, right while I was doing these pants. I thought this would be so great in cotton. I wonder if this is possible. And. And there was a company, Darlington, that still exists today, and they said they would work with me doing cotton lycra for 1500 yards. We were only able to get 500 good yards because it was so new, the cotton would break with the elastic. And it didn't. So they obviously weren't rushing to lose more money to do it. And I would keep saying, can we do it? Can we? And eventually it took a couple of years before cotton Lycra could actually be made. So to even as I say it, it's almost hard for me to believe because it's so natural in all the fabrics that have stretch in them. Nothing had stretch in it then. So the shapes, the attitude of casual active sports was just very different.
- [16:08]
Nicole Phelps
More with Norma Kamali after the break.
- [16:22]
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- [16:52]
Nicole Phelps
I'm curious to hear what you think about New York now, because I look around and there is a lot of athleisure. Everyone looks a lot. Yes, you're doing it very cool. But there is a sense of people sort of dressing the same, and I wonder if you notice that or if you are able to see pockets of individuality.
- [17:16]
Norma Kamali
I think approval is very important right now, and I think social media is intimidating, and I think it's a different time. The expressing how you look has a lot of parameters now. There's a lot of rules, quiet rules, on what is right and how you should look. And influencers even behave properly. Right? They are not gonna go too far out on a limb. And even celebrities that look amazing, that we just celebrate because they know how to carry it off, they're still following certain quiet rules. Right? This is red carpet. This is certain situations. You dress in this way. So Cher, for example, would do any red carpet, but in her way, right. That would be very different. And you expected it to be that way. I remember doing Raquel Welch almost every Oscar. She would either be a presenter or a celebrity to be seen. And we would spend so much time planning what her look would be. And she was very aware of her body and how she should look. And so she was still standing out from the way everyone else looked. And there was more of that and less than this. These rules. It's also extremely global right now, too. So it's not that it's bad now. It's that these are the forces that we all deal with, and the authenticity is harder to find, but it exists. And when you see it, you know that this is authentic. Just like designers, you can tell this new designer is really authentic. This is what you are aware of immediately. And so it still exists, but different rules, different times.
- [19:36]
Laird Borelli Pearson
I wanted to go back to something that we talked about when we had our meeting for your resort collection last week, and you were telling me, I'm listening to you talk about influencers and how people are gathering information and where. And you told me about your inspiration that came from a New York institution, the Costume Institute. And I think that was really interesting because you couldn't even mimeograph. And I think listening to you talk about creating a self and how you gathered references was really interesting. And I wondered if you could share that with our listeners.
- [20:14]
Norma Kamali
So I really didn't want to be in fashion. I wanted to be a painter. So I studied anatomy. And then I thought, oh, I need to. My mother kept saying, you better get A job. So this painting thing, like, get it out of your head. So I thought, okay, I'll go to fit. Fortunately, I got a scholarship. So I studied fashion illustration. So I was very interested in the illustrators that used anatomy in the way they drew the human form and the way they drew the fabric draped over the human form. And so the best place to see it would be to go to the library in the special room in the museum. And it wasn't too much bigger than this room, maybe double the size. And there were magazines and references, but you couldn't obviously take a picture. I wouldn't even have a camera to take a picture. You couldn't in any way copy what you were seeing, and you couldn't even sketch it. Very strict rules. There was always somebody around looking. So I would have to literally memorize everything I saw in the picture. But seriously, memorize it. So there was a point, and I think I've shed most of that now, but I'm sure it could come back where I could tell you. In 1939, in the fall, these were the top design looks. These were the shoes that were worn. These were the hats that were worn. This was the kind of jewelry. And I would memorize it all, but memorizing also the gestures, the gestures of those illustrations. And I fell in love with fashion almost reluctantly, because my intention, Michelangelo, was all over my walls, in my room, not fashion. And then Sargent started to. I understood, okay, this is the source of it. But really having that reference was so incredible for me to see all of this magic that was happening in fashion magazines that I couldn't afford. Quite frankly, I couldn't buy all of these magazines. And going back to see them through the years was just the best education.
- [22:58]
Nicole Phelps
What Norma is saying right now is reminding me of that post we just saw on Instagram. Using AI makes you stupid. Obviously, if you pay a lot of attention and concentrate on these things, your brain is going to. And your hand drawing and designing is going to work a lot differently than if you rely on computers and artificial intelligence to do the work for you.
- [23:21]
Norma Kamali
Yeah, but I'm a big fan of artificial intelligence.
- [23:24]
Nicole Phelps
Oh, that's true. Maybe we should jump to that.
- [23:27]
Norma Kamali
So my response to that would be that the assistance that you can get through artificial intelligence, the support, the amount of information and the frequency and the instant answer is incredibly helpful in so many ways. Because now all of the time that it takes to do some of this laborious stuff that we all do, and you then take that time to do the creative part of it and you have all of this information, whether you're a writer or a designer or whatever that is, I think is going to benefit everyone. I just did a review with my staff. Instead of me reviewing them, I had them. I had five questions. They should review themselves. And these are my questions. So I was just going to listen. And everybody knows I'm a big fan of AI I want them to use it every day. And I was very much aware of the fact that they all used AI to do their presentations. And so I thought it was very funny, except when they wanted to read their. I was like, no, no, no, no, you can give me that. And now tell me. But what happened was they had great presentations. Part of them were they needed to contribute ideas for their department, for their job, what could make it better, and then for the company. And so they had a good framework to start with, and then they personalized it. And we have so many great ideas, and now we're having meetings about how to implement those ideas. So I really think, because they used it, it's a more focused, energetic approach to solving problems that exist in departments in the company that we want to make better. So I'm a fan.
- [25:43]
Nicole Phelps
We'll be right back with Norma Kamali.
- [25:53]
Sponsor
EBay. It's the place to fall in love with new, pre loved, vintage and rare fashion. Over and over again, your favorite designers expertly authenticated. Yeah, eBay. Things people love.
- [26:09]
Laird Borelli Pearson
Now, in addition to fashion for everyone, because you are very careful about your prices and options, you've also worked with choreographers and directors doing costumes. In particular, you did the wizard, which must have been exciting.
- [26:27]
Norma Kamali
I didn't do the whole film of the Wiz. I did Emerald City and that was really so much fun. And of course, I love designing for dancers and athletes because it goes back to anatomy and swimwear and doing the costumes for something that was just such a fantasy. Everything in red, yellow, green, right here. Filming it right down here, it was just a joy. And I remember they invited me to come down for different filmings and I would come down and I remember seeing this young guy who was with the Jackson 5, who now had this role on his own and nobody'd seen him on his own. And I remember coming back to the office saying, oh, my God, you're gonna see this kid. Remember the kid that was in Jackson 5. Like, he is unbelievable. I think he's gonna be a big star. Like, oh, my God, wait till you check him out. Yeah, he was definitely. You could feel this energy that was just so incredible.
- [27:45]
Nicole Phelps
And Then we were doing research, and I discovered that you also did the Chaka Khan's clothes for her video. I feel for you.
- [27:52]
Norma Kamali
Yeah, I did a lot of those. In fact, Sly in the Family Stone. I know Sly just died, and I made him just everybody. I have to say, somehow I ended up doing clothes for a broad assortment of creative people. And he. I did a lot of things for him, but. And he had great style. And he. I did feather jackets. I used to do these big, puffy feather jackets, and he would want one in different colors all the time, so. And he would wear them and just sweat and sweat and sweat into them. And he'd like one. Another one in yellow and another one. So it's really. If you go through the musicians and singers of different periods somehow, and I've never given free clothes to people, by the way. It's like, that's not. I could never afford to give free clothes to people, but they. Somehow I managed to be lucky enough to have fun doing stuff like that.
- [29:05]
Nicole Phelps
Shifting gears a bit. All of us are curious about and eager for love. And you found love in your 70s, right? You are recently married.
- [29:18]
Norma Kamali
Recently married. But Ian introduced me to Marty when I was 65, and I was convinced that other people would have soulmates, that it probably wasn't for me. I didn't. You know, I just. You know, I have lots of great friends. Just thought maybe that's not going to be my thing. I had boyfriends, but not anything that, like, marry somebody. No, no, no, no. That's not gonna happen. But I actually met my soulmate at 65, which tells you that we really are in such a different time, not only because of longevity, but because people are more vital and they're more engaged. And I think everybody has a time that is the time that something like that happens. And dismissing it is not a good thing. Being open to it is probably the best approach. So I'm very lucky. And, yes, we got married two years ago, and go figure.
- [30:38]
Laird Borelli Pearson
You are so admired by so many people. And some of the people that are listening to this podcast are students, and we're wondering what advice you might give to them for those who are trying to find success in fashion.
- [30:55]
Norma Kamali
Well, it's very different for students now than when I started, so my personal experience as advice is not something I would give. In ways it's so much easier now and also so much harder. I think access to global awareness is easier. And if you have a website or you use social media in a clever way, and if you're authentic and you tell your story in an authentic way, you really have a great opportunity. There's a chance that somebody may be a Vogue editor, maybe just like for me, or maybe an opportunity will come if you truly have original thoughts and creativity. It is so much harder because it's so much more expensive to do anything now. My first store was $285 a month. I was in a basement. But I also didn't have expectations that I needed to have a fashion show right away and I needed to be famous and rich. I never had that notion at all. I just wanted to be creative. So it took me 14, 15 years to have any recognition that was bigger than maybe Sly and all of these people that were buying things from me. But the idea that I had to have a fashion show right away was no. So I fell on my face many times, made mistakes many times. But not a lot of people saw that. And so time was on my side. For me personally, this is totally personal. So I think it depends on the individual. Is it creativity that you're drive and your motivation to live a creative life for me, totally above everything else. Is it to be famous and recognized? Well, that's true for a lot of people who are creative. And that can work. Maybe not for a long time, but that can work. So I think know thyself is the key. Who are you? What is it you want and how will you achieve it? And can you achieve it without selling half of your business before you have a business? So that's a big thought process. Now, I'm talking about an entrepreneurial type. There are other designers that feel more comfortable working for a brand and being supported and sponsored by a brand. Again, that was not something that I could even imagine in my head. But I had great opportunities like Walmart and other companies that I learned so much from and loved working with. But I really believe it's much more difficult if you don't know who you are and what you want. And you must know that first. And fashion, I think, is changing dramatically. The fashion industry, not that you ask, but I'm going to tell you anyway. The fashion industry, I feel, is the slowest to adopt change.
- [34:57]
Nicole Phelps
How ironic.
- [34:58]
Norma Kamali
Yes. Shocking, right? And I think disruption is critical for all of us to do. We must cause the disruption in our own lives, in our own work, in order to evolve. It is not so much fun when the disruption is created for you. And I am hoping that that's not true for our industry. I'm feeling more and more that the disruption is happening to us and More and more, we're having a harder time identifying luxury or what is it? What is it today? What's it going to be tomorrow? Is it going to be tomorrow? What is the culture of clothing now? And it's always global, right? So we're always talking in a global frame. So I think it's time to see more people, including myself, disrupt their own companies, their own lives. People don't want to risk money, they don't want to risk fame, they don't want to risk a lot. So it's a big ask for all of us. But I do believe it's a critical time for our industry.
- [36:21]
Laird Borelli Pearson
I'm with you. I think that any change has to come from the designers. It won't come from the system.
- [36:26]
Norma Kamali
No.
- [36:27]
Nicole Phelps
At the beginning of our talk, you did mention living to 121. That's 40 some years from now. What is next for you personally and for Norma Kamali, the brand?
- [36:40]
Norma Kamali
Well, first of all, living to that age means it has to be done so that I'm healthy and I'm able to do some of the things that I'm dreaming to do that I would love to do. And I'm doing research on that all the time. In my quest, as I mentioned, I was turning 80, and I thought, maybe it's time for a facelift. And I haven't done Botox or anything. And, you know, it's like this face. I look in the mirror and I think, I don't know, this girl inside is not connecting with that face. Maybe it's time to do that. And so I met with many, many, many surgeons, and then I started to get exposure to stem cells and exosomes and all of these things and things that are going on in the Middle east, too. And, oh, my goodness. And the adventure of longevity is filtering into this, too, and what's going on with your blood and what you're eating. So that is exciting. And I may or may not get a facelift, by the way. I'm still deciding, but I'm very excited about that kind of information and how that can help people, not just me, live longer, better, and more productively. My purpose, as I said, really has so much to do with what I can share. I feel smarter than I've ever been in my life, and I feel I should be doing certain things that other people can benefit from, and I enjoy that. I do have ideas about fashion, and I do have ideas about lifestyle and longevity that are very connected, and I'm excited about them. And I like the fact that I can use AI comfortably. So I just look at all of these possibilities that can change everything we're doing in fashion. Can you imagine doing one of a kind for people? Because there's robotics that are going day and night, the lights are out and they're still working away and nobody's being exploited. The conditions are great. So I think that I see all of these little things and it's exciting and I want to just explore all of them in that adventure that we have in front of us. And this to me is the most exciting time in my life. And in my time as a designer, I can't think of a better time. And I'm optimistic, but I'm also realistic and I think this is it. We are looking at it. It's disguised as not being, but it truly is.
- [39:54]
Nicole Phelps
Well, thank you so much, Norma for this mind expanding conversation.
- [39:59]
Norma Kamali
Thank you.
- [40:01]
Laird Borelli Pearson
Always incredible to listen to you.
- [40:02]
Norma Kamali
Well, I'm finally here to see you. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
- [40:11]
Nicole Phelps
That's it for the Run Through. See you Thursday day.
- [40:22]
Sponsor
The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Stephanie Kariuki. It's engineered by Pran Bandy and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of Global Audio. When you have high standards and fancy all the fancy things like an iconic Dior saddlebag or a stunning diamond tennis bracelet, you go to ebay. There you'll find new loves that never disappoint. Expertly authenticated. Whether it's that vintage pearl necklace, brand new ruby earrings, a Prada crossbody bag to be besties with your other handbag, or an eternally classic watch like a Rolex oyster or Cartier tank. You know the 1. EBay's experts ensure that you're getting the real deal. That way you can be confident that the designer finds you came for the luxury wardrobe you've always wanted. It's all real. In fact, it's verified authentic. So bring your high standards and never limit what you can truly find. Yeah, eBay the place for new pre loved vintage and rare fashion. EBay things people love.
- [41:33]
Norma Kamali
From PRX.