Reflecting on Demna’s Balenciaga | PLUS Vogue Editors on Anna Wintour's News

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Run-Through with Vogue
Episode: Reflecting on Demna’s Balenciaga | PLUS Vogue Editors on Anna Wintour's News
Release Date: July 3, 2025

Hosted by Chioma Nnadi (Choma) and Chloe Malle

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1. Introduction and Overview

In this episode of The Run-Through with Vogue, hosts Chioma Nnadi and Chloe Malle delve into the impactful decade of Demna Ghazal at Balenciaga, coinciding with his final show for the house at the upcoming Paris Couture Shows. The discussion is enriched by insights from Vogue editors Nicole Phelps, Laia Garcia Furtado, and Sarah Mower, who collectively analyze Demna’s influence on fashion and pop culture.

Chloe Mel (00:01): "Summer is in full swing and my closet looks better than ever this season thanks to quints..."
Note: This segment includes promotional content and is skipped in the main summary.

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2. Demna’s Legacy at Balenciaga

The conversation centers on Demna Ghazal’s transformative decade at Balenciaga, highlighting his role in shaping contemporary fashion and his influence on global pop culture.

Chioma Nnadi (01:36): "Today we are looking back at Demna's decade at Balenciaga. I like the sound of that."

Chloe Mel (01:38): "Demna is obviously a powerhouse in our industry and has shaped pop culture and fashion in so many ways."
Timestamp: [01:38]

Nicole Phelps (19:14): "Sarah and Laia, welcome to the podcast."

Sarah Mower (19:20): "He's one of the designers who really did have a really big effect on the way people dressed..."
Timestamp: [19:20]

Key Points:

• Impact on Streetwear and High Fashion: Demna amplified streetwear aesthetics, integrating them into high fashion, exemplified by his iconic "ugly dad trainers" which became mainstream.

• Innovative Shows: Demna utilized digital technology and immersive experiences in his runway shows, pushing the boundaries of traditional fashion presentations.

• Autobiographical and Sociopolitical Themes: His collections often reflected his personal experiences as a refugee and his awareness of global issues like climate change and geopolitical conflicts.

Notable Quote: Sarah Mower (34:56): "He was really working through real life problems... that's why you could always find landmarks of the times we live in."
Timestamp: [34:56]

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3. Anna Wintour Steps Down as Editor-in-Chief

A significant portion of the episode discusses the recent announcement of Anna Wintour stepping down from her role as Editor-in-Chief of American Vogue after 37 years, though she remains involved as Chief Content Officer for Condé Nast and Vogue’s Global Editorial Director.

Choma (03:48): "Our boss, Anna Wintour, announced that she's stepping down from her role as editor in chief of American Vogue after 37 years."
Timestamp: [03:48]

Chloe Mel (04:08): "She will continue as chief content officer for Conde Nast and Vogue's global editorial director. So she technically isn't going anywhere."
Timestamp: [04:08]

Choma (05:10): "There's going to be a global worldwide search, so I don't think there's going to be an announcement anytime soon."
Timestamp: [05:10]

Chloe Mel (05:24): "The person coming into this role will have the title head of editorial content, not editor in chief..."
Timestamp: [05:24]

Key Points:

• Transition of Roles: Anna Wintour’s transition focuses on maintaining her influence within Vogue and Condé Nast while stepping back from daily editorial duties.

• Future Leadership: The search for her successor is expected to be thorough, aiming to find someone who can uphold Vogue’s legacy while bringing fresh perspectives.

Notable Quote: Chloe Mel (05:24): "This is really a new role. It's a different role. And as is true of every job and occupation, whoever comes in will make this what makes sense for them."
Timestamp: [05:24]

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4. Highlights from Recent Fashion Shows

The hosts and guests discuss several standout moments from recent fashion weeks, focusing on designers like Jonathan Anderson at Dior, Jacquemus, Wales Bonner, and others.

Choma (08:37): "It's been quite an eventful week. Obviously, everybody was anticipating Jonathan's debut at Dior."
Timestamp: [08:37]

Chola Mel (14:36): "Couture this season, I think, will be a little bit more quiet than usual..."
Timestamp: [14:36]

Key Points:

• Jonathan Anderson at Dior: Anderson’s debut showcased a blend of utility and playful design, received positively with high-profile attendees like Rihanna and A$AP Rocky.

• Jacquemus at Versailles: Dedicated to his family history, the collection emphasized emotional depth and sophistication, marking a mature evolution in his design aesthetic.

• Wales Bonner and Willie Shavarria: Bonner’s “Jewel” collection and Shavarria’s politically charged designs underscored the intersection of fashion with social commentary.

Notable Quote: Choma (09:58): "I also love his sense of humor. I thought it was fun to see Rihanna carrying the Bram Stoker's Dracula bag."
Timestamp: [09:58]

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5. Glastonbury Festival Insights

The conversation shifts to the recent Glastonbury Festival, highlighting notable performances and fashion statements from artists like Dochi, Charli XCX, and Olivia Rodrigo.

Choma (15:42): "There was so many amazing moments at Glastonbury. I think everybody was talking about Dochi and Charli XCX..."
Timestamp: [15:42]

Chloe Mel (16:38): "She's at Wimbledon with her cute boyfriend. Very... we love courtside style."
Timestamp: [16:38]

Key Points:

• Fashion at Glastonbury: Artists showcased bold and eclectic styles, reflecting the festival’s vibrant and diverse culture.

• Celebrity Appearances: High-profile attendees like Olivia Rodrigo and Cate Blanchett stood out with their unique fashion choices, blending performance and personal style.

Notable Quote: Choma (16:25): "I think one of the suits that maybe Naomi Campbell wore, I think it was the same plaid."
Timestamp: [16:25]

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6. Couture Plans and Upcoming Shows

Hosts discuss their excitement for upcoming couture shows, including Jonathan Anderson’s anticipated debut at Dior and Demna’s final show at Balenciaga.

Choma (14:36): "My summer couture plans include Jonathan's debut at Dior and Demna's last show at Balenciaga."
Timestamp: [14:36]

Chloe Mel (15:30): "I'll be going in on Sunday for Michael Ryder's first show for Celine."
Timestamp: [15:30]

Choma (15:17): "Glenn Martens will be showing his debut for Margiela... lots to look forward to."
Timestamp: [15:17]

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7. In-Depth Interview with Sarah Mower and Laia Garcia Furtado

The latter part of the episode features an interview with Vogue editors Sarah Mower and Laia Garcia Furtado, discussing Demna’s final couture show and his overarching impact on fashion.

Nicole Phelps (19:14): "Sarah and Laia, welcome to the podcast."

Sarah Mower (19:20): "He changed the way people dressed. Not many designers get to change the way people dress."
Timestamp: [19:20]

Key Points:

• Demna’s Design Philosophy: Emphasis on play, innovation, and merging high fashion with streetwear aesthetics.

• Couture Show Reflections: Demna’s final show replicated the original Balenciaga couture salon, blending tradition with his unique, avant-garde approach.

• Personal Anecdotes: Sarah shares memorable moments, including Demna’s humorous side and his ability to infuse deep sociopolitical commentary into his collections.

Notable Quotes:

• Choma (29:56): "The anticipation was that, you know, you could feel it in your every fiber."
  Timestamp: [29:56]

• Sarah Mower (34:56): "He was really working through real life problems... landmarks of the times we live in."
  Timestamp: [34:56]

• Sarah Mower (39:09): "I think there is a thing about him also trying to make fashion part of the culture at large."
  Timestamp: [39:09]

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8. Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with hosts reflecting on the dynamic nature of fashion leadership transitions and expressing anticipation for future developments in the industry.

Nicole Phelps (50:09): "You get a little bit of a clean, cleanish slate."
Timestamp: [51:21]

Choma (51:37): "From prx."
Final Timestamp: [51:37]

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Final Notes

• Production Credits:
  Produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma, and Stephanie Kariuki. Engineered by Pran Bandy and mixed by Mike Kutchman. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio.

• Advertisements and Promotions:
  Segments promoting Quince and Progressive Insurance are present at the beginning of the podcast but are omitted from this summary to focus on substantive content.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights shared in the episode, providing listeners with an in-depth understanding of Demna Ghazal’s influence at Balenciaga, the transition of leadership at Vogue, and the latest happenings in the fashion world.

Transcript

[Chloe Mel]

Summer is in full swing and my closet looks better than ever this season thanks to quints. I am a huge fan of Vogue shopping and get most of my shopping suggestions from them. But I also subscribe to the strategist newsletter and wirecutters newsletter and it was on one of those that I saw that an editor's favorite swimsuit affordable swimsuit was from Quince and I was influenced and I bought one and you know what?

[Chairmanotti]

It's good.

[Chloe Mel]

It's a good high waisted bottom. It stays in place when you're running around for toddlers. I'm very happy with it. That's my summer quints addition. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com runthrough for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I N C E.com runthrough to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quantify quince.com runthrough this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. This is the run through. I'm Chloe Mel.

[Choma]

And I'm Chairmanotti.

[Chloe Mel]

Today we are looking back at Demna's decade at Balenciaga. I like the sound of that. Ahead of his final show for the house, which will be next week at the couture shows in Paris. Demna is obviously a powerhouse in our industry and has shaped pop culture and fashion in so many. Our co host Nicole Phelps, as well as our fabulous Vogue colleagues Laia Garcia Furtado and Sarah Mower break it all down in their conversation on Demna's legacy. Coming right up. It's a really fun conversation and those three women are so incisive and smart about the intersection of fashion and culture and Demna really sort of embodies that to me. So I was very excited to hear the three of them parsing that through.

[Choma]

Yeah, I can't wait to hear that conversation.

[Chloe Mel]

Choma, tell me where you are right now. You're wearing a wonderful shirt with Bob Marley, but you're in a very pristine.

[Choma]

White.

[Chloe Mel]

Hotel looking room.

[Choma]

Yeah, I'm at this very famous health resort which is on a set on a lake and you know how obsessed I am with all things, well, being, wellness, longevity. And this place is just the Best if you have anything. Anything. Or if you want to reset your gut specifically.

[Chloe Mel]

Oh, you love a gut reset, girl.

[Choma]

I've had problems with my gut. When you have gut problems, you get quite obsessed with it, with having, like, good.

[Chairmanotti]

A good gut.

[Chloe Mel]

Is hard to find.

[Choma]

And it's amazing here.

[Chairmanotti]

Like, I've.

[Choma]

A good gut is hard to find, and they're getting to the root of the problem.

[Chloe Mel]

Wow, this is exciting.

[Choma]

Yeah. I mean, don't get to eat very much.

[Chloe Mel]

That's not exciting for me.

[Choma]

No, I know. The food is really good. It's just quite small. And there's various teas and elixirs and lots of treatments. I just came from the osteopath, which was great. So I feel very loose and relaxed.

[Chloe Mel]

Oh, we love a relaxed choma. Let me tell you the vibe at One World Trade. Not so loose and relaxed.

[Chairmanotti]

Right.

[Choma]

I mean, talk about burying the lead. I think we have to talk about the big news that broke last week. Everyone, including the osteopath here, was asking me about it. Yes. So our boss, Anna Wintour, announced that she's stepping down from her role as editor in chief of American Vogue after. Wow. I can't believe it's been 37 years.

[Chloe Mel]

Unbelievable.

[Choma]

Yeah. Like, her first issue ran in September 1988, so it's been a while. She'll basically. Before we all say that she's retired, she hasn't, because this is. I think there's like, some misinformation going around. She will continue as chief content officer for Conde Nast and Vogue's global editorial director. So she technically isn't going anywhere.

[Chloe Mel]

She's not going anywhere. And as she said when she announced it to senior staff on Thursday morning, I will still be in my office, and my Clarice Cliff pottery will remain in my office. So if you have any questions, I'll be right here. I do think that Ana will continue to be extremely present, and it will be interesting to see what this role looks like and how it is shaped. And everyone is very curious. Conde Conclave. We're waiting for a white smoke. And you know, it's Stanley Tucci, very pivotal character in both Conclave and Devil's Prada.

[Choma]

Yeah, well, I mean, there's going to be a global worldwide search, so I don't think there's going to be an announcement anytime soon. I think they're not going to rush this. I don't think this decision will be rushed, and they're going to meet with a lot of people.

[Chloe Mel]

Also important to note that this the person Coming into this role will have the title head of editorial content, not editor in chief, which is similar to your title Choma, and other heads of editorial content at the other owned and operated editions of Vogue internationally. So this is really. It's a new role. It's a different role. And as is true of every job and occupation, whoever comes in will make this what makes sense for them. And I think Anna will continue to shape what that is for her and what her role is.

[Choma]

Well, I mean, I have to say, speaking of big news that we didn't talk about last week, how did you keep that under your hat?

[Chairmanotti]

The.

[Choma]

Oh, my gosh, the big Lauren Sanchez cover.

[Chloe Mel]

The Pentagon papers were nothing compared to this.

[Choma]

I had no idea you kept this. Really. So tell me everything from when you went to Milan. The story was amazing.

[Chloe Mel]

So Anna Wintour loves a wedding. And Anna is very good at negotiating wedding exclusives with high profile brides. She'd been talking to Lauren and Jeff about their wedding plans for a while. I think that she. Lauren showed her some sketches of the dress and Anna really negotiated this exclusive where we got to photograph Lauren in her wedding looks from Dolce and Gabbana two weeks before, three weeks before the wedding outside of Milan. We were going to do it at the Dolce and Gabbana atelier, but they have so much paparazzi following them. And so for security and privacy, we had to move it to this farmhouse 40 minutes outside of Milan, which resulted in extremely funny moments of trying to protect this very top secret nature of this shoot, including the poor, extremely aristocratic elderly owners of the villa we were renting. Like a wobbly iPhone photo and all the Italian producers jumping on them to delete it from their phones. Not to mention a poor Italian corn farmer tootling by on his scooter and everyone being like, he's wearing a GoPro. Get him. So it was. It was really a lively and fun shoot. Tierney Gearin, who's a complete hoot and a delay.

[Choma]

I was gonna say I love Tierney. I've never met her, but I love her work and I've always wanted to meet her. She also shoot for the fader when I worked there.

[Chairmanotti]

So I'm very.

[Choma]

I love her work.

[Chloe Mel]

I did not know her either. And now we are besties because we went to the best children's pajama store in Milan the next day and had so much fun. She bought the whole store. And so we love tyranny. Tabitha Simmons, who loves Lauren and worked on the first Vogue Lauren Sanchez shoot. So it was a really Good group of people. And it's just fun to be with a blushing bride before the wedding, no matter how much controversy is surrounding their wedding plans.

[Choma]

Yeah, she definitely looks super happy.

[Chloe Mel]

Yeah. Choma, tell me about the menswear shows and the Jonathan Anderson debut at Dior.

[Choma]

Yeah, it's been quite an eventful week. Obviously, everybody was anticipating Jonathan's debut at Dior. He's the first designer to do both men's and women's, so. And this was his first outing for Dior. And what he said after the show was that he wanted his. He's really focused on how the first five collections will create a visual language for Dior. And he'd been looking at the archives, but for me, actually, it harkened a little bit back to his early work because he was one of the first designers to really play with this. Menswear designers to play with this idea of gender. And you had these voluminous shorts that were almost like mini ball skirts. So I thought it was really kind of a nod to some of that. These insane frock coats. I really love the mix. I love how he takes utility pieces and pieces that you recognize, like the cargo pan, and makes them completely unrecognizable and new and fresh. He has such a knack for that. I also love his sense of humor. I thought it was fun to see Rihanna carrying the Bram Stoker's Dracula bag. I think those bags will be really collectible.

[Chloe Mel]

Oh, I love the book bags.

[Choma]

The book bags are really.

[Chloe Mel]

Which one do you want?

[Choma]

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. What about you? I think they're all great.

[Chloe Mel]

They were all fantastic. I thought the Lady Chatterley's Lover one was pretty.

[Choma]

Like a controversial book.

[Chloe Mel]

That's right.

[Choma]

Yeah. No, and I think it was cool to see. I think everybody was excited to see who would come in support of him. And obviously all of his. All of his guys were there. Josh O' Connor, who's always been a big front row fixture, A$AP Rocky, and Rihanna, who looked adorable and have been winning the men's shows. Rihanna was also seen front row with her son, which was so cute at Rocky's show.

[Chloe Mel]

I know. I love that.

[Choma]

Yeah, it was very, very, very cute. So I don't know. I think men's is really making a big. It felt like a big week for men's.

[Chloe Mel]

It did. It felt like a. A critical mass of people were there and were posting from it. It was more. It channeled more event than in years past, which is always interesting to See, Yeah.

[Choma]

And I think so many of the designers that we love had standout shows. When I think about Wales, Bonner, coming off the success of the mayor and being honestly one of the central designers as part of the Superfine exhibit, had an incredible show. The tailoring was amazing. This idea of brooches and embellishment. The show was called Jewel, so it was all about, I guess, extending beyond that idea of jewel and heirloom and those beautiful brooches that we saw at the Met. She translated them to a more kind of everyday context. And I love how she. She mixes that amazing tailoring with sportswear. And she had a collab with Y3. And then Willie Shavaria, whose collection, I think left me with chills, is just the right way to make a political statement, a commentary on what was happening with the ice raids in la. And it was really stunning. It was really, really stunning. Even not being there, you could feel the energy from afar, I think.

[Chloe Mel]

Yes, agree.

[Choma]

Ooh. One show that wasn't a menswear show, but that made a lot of waves, I think, was Jacquemus. He showed at Versailles before, and this time he showed again at Versailles. The entire collection was dedicated to his family. And he looked through. He's from Provence. He often sort of mines his personal history for inspiration. And this season he was looking at pictures, I guess, going three generations back, of his own family. And they have a history of being farmers. And usually you associate Jacquemus with this very quite sort of slinky, sexy silhouette, but it was much more pulled back as far as there's much more of a sort of a subtle seduction.

[Nicole Phelps]

It felt much more grown up.

[Choma]

It did. It felt much more grown up. I think he was quite emotional backstage. I think it had been. It was a new sort of level of sophistication for him. And so a lot of people were texting me about that show, including Maya Singer, who said exactly that. She said it was like, yeah, it was great. But tell me about Mark, because that seemed to steal everyone's imagination in New York.

[Chloe Mel]

The Mark show was interesting because he really has, since he brought back his shows post, Covid, kept to this very consistent motif of oversized, subverted proportions. And somehow, even though this is a consistent motif of his, he manages to make it surprising and exciting each time. And this was, you know, in his show notes, he described it as a sort of investigation of beauty and rethinking what beauty means and how things add together. And you saw some of the dresses had lumps in weird places and A bra was sort of sewn into the side of the rib cage of a. And I thought it was quite provocative. And it's interesting and fun to see the guests at his show wearing the pieces from the last collection, which are also quite caricature, like, in their shapes. And seeing people navigate that on sort of New York City streets was fun. Choma, what are you feeling about Couture and what are your couture plans?

[Choma]

Well, couture this season, I think, will be a little bit more quiet than usual, I think, because Dior will not be showing. We'll have to wait another season for Jonathan's couture debut, which I think is. I think everyone is really waiting for, because we've never seen what he could do with couture, and I think this will be a really exciting moment for him. And then Chanel, we know that Mathieu will not show his debut until October, but Demna will be showing his last show for Balenciaga. So that's going to be something really special for sure.

[Chloe Mel]

And a good partner for this podcast.

[Choma]

A good partner for this podcast. And then Glenn Martens will be showing his debut for Margiela. So there is lots. There's lots to look forward to.

[Chloe Mel]

And Celine debut.

[Choma]

Oh, yeah, I'll be going for Celine debut, but it's technically before.

[Chloe Mel]

Okay.

[Choma]

Before couture starts. So I'm excited to see Michael Ryder's first show for Celine, so I'll be going in on Sunday for that.

[Chloe Mel]

Choma, tell me about Glastonbury.

[Choma]

Wow. Well, where to begin? I still haven't broken my Glastonbury virginity, so I haven't been yet, which I'm really. Which I'm really slightly sad about and kicking myself about, because next year is a fallow year, so there's no Glastonbury.

[Chloe Mel]

Wait, is that a thing? I didn't know about that.

[Chairmanotti]

Oh, yeah.

[Choma]

They have to. The fields have to regenerate. I mean, there was so many. There were so many amazing moments at Glastonbury. I think everybody was. Was talking about Dochi and Charli xcx, who happened to be playing at the same time, which I think was probably a mistake given that there's so much overlap with their fans. I thought Dochi looked incredible. She was wearing this very short, pleated Vivienne Westwood skirt with a.

[Chairmanotti]

With a.

[Choma]

With a matching bra top. That reference, I think one of the suits that maybe Naomi Campbell wore, I think it was the same plaid.

[Chloe Mel]

Okay.

[Choma]

And then Olivia Rodrigo was one of the headliners, and she looked adorable.

[Chloe Mel]

She's looking adorable again this week. She's at Wimbledon with her cute boyfriend. Very. Oh, yeah, we love courtside style. Are you going to Wimbledon?

[Choma]

Oh, girl, I wish. I wish. I'm here for the first week and then the second week I won't be able to go, but I usually go every opportunity I can. It's so much fun. People get so dressed up. I mean, and even watching the people from afar, I saw Cate Blanchett went with her mother looking incredible. People really get dressed to go to Wimbledon. It's a completely different culture.

[Chloe Mel]

We have also been saying that the players outfits this year have been fun too. Like, Coco's kit is very cute. So we've had a lot of eyes on the athletes themselves. Busy week around here, but we are off for the holiday. Fourth of July starting Thursday afternoon.

[Choma]

You doing anything fun?

[Chloe Mel]

We're gonna be in Connecticut. Artie is very into his swim lessons at the moment, so we're gonna be working on his diving. He tends to just jump in the pool and belly flop, so we're working on him not hurting himself.

[Choma]

Okay.

[Chloe Mel]

Oh, my God.

[Choma]

Well, I hope hopefully you'll be documenting some of this.

[Chairmanotti]

I love. I love seeing.

[Choma]

I love seeing all of it. And we'll be back in a moment with Nicole's conversation with Sarah Moa. Hi, it's Cho Minardi. If you're not on the Vogue app yet, what the hell are you doing? You can follow along with me and other editors as we talk about everything happening in fashion. Think you're already a fashion expert? Well, find out how your Runway IQ stacks up against the Vogue community with an all new Runway genius leaderboard. So download the Vogue app today and you'll never miss a moment.

[Kristen Davis]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo-o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com.

[Nicole Phelps]

Sarah and Laia, welcome to the podcast.

[Sarah Mower]

Thank you for having me.

[Chairmanotti]

Hi.

[Nicole Phelps]

We are here to talk about Demna, whose final couture show for Balencia is next Wednesday. Sarah, you have been covering his rise since the vetement days. What are your personal thoughts about Demna's decade at Balenciaga?

[Chairmanotti]

Well, I mean, I think he, he's one of the designers who really did have a really big effect on the way people dressed. Whether it was amplifying what was going on in the street, literally magnifying it so much that it was so hugely outsized. And everything he did with, you know, those extraordinary ugly dad trainers and so on, you could see that he changed the way. Not many designers get to change the way people dress. I also thought, I think, well, Nicole, you'll know this. All the shows that we went to that kind of really did document and channel the times like nothing else. He's been so brilliant at interpreting the times and playing tricks on us with lots of different mega surprises, I think, and using digital technology, which came up in that time. And so there's what he designed in terms of clothing and then there's how he showed.

[Nicole Phelps]

You interviewed him about his retrospective, which went up at the beginning of the men's shows in Paris. What was his mood like when he was reflecting on his decade at Balenciaga?

[Chairmanotti]

He felt that it was closure for him. And so he selected these 101 pieces, not chronologically, but to represent that decade. And I was surprised he started to tell me what he's going to do at Gucci as well.

[Nicole Phelps]

I was happy to hear him talk about the iconic red puffer jacket off the shoulders with the, with the rhinestone encrusted turtleneck and the leggings and the. To me, 10 years later, that is still one of my all time favorite looks. So definitive. Maybe we should start at the beginning. Laia, take us back to 2015. Who was Demna before he got the Balenciaga appointment? Why did he get this, this big job? He was almost unknown, fairly unknown outside of the fashion circles.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah, he was basically unknown. He was doing vetements. And I feel like there were only a handful of collections by the time that he was named, but they were already like everybody was talking about them. They were. And you can see the precursor of everything that he did at Balenciaga there. And even those vetements collections, when you look at them today, they still look so new, which is interesting because of what Sarah was saying, how he changed the way people dressed. And I think that can be the thing where, like when you have a really big change and then everybody sort of starts looking like that, the clothes can sometimes lose their sort of shocking or brand new feeling. But those early Vatman collections, same as Balenciaga, they still are so powerful, they're still so electrifying. But yeah, so he Was basically an unknown. I feel like it was very like the, if, you know, you know, shows that people were going to in Paris. I know that I was not at any of the shows, but I do know that there was famously one held in like a dark basement that.

[Nicole Phelps]

The depot. Is it depot or. It was a sex club, wasn't it?

[Sarah Mower]

A sex club, yeah.

[Chairmanotti]

Nicole, you were there. Sex club?

[Nicole Phelps]

I was, yes. And it did, it was stinky down there near the bathrooms. But we loved. Was one of those shows where the clothes brushed your. Your legs as, as they walked by really, really close up and so, so powerful. I, I remember and that was the first time I met Demna. After that show I interviewed him and he.

[Chairmanotti]

For.

[Nicole Phelps]

For us insiders who, you know, pay were paying really close attention to the runways. He, he was elusive I think at that point. And so, you know, there's a lot of curiosity about him. And I remember being struck, I think by his confidence and his. He had a very clear idea of what he wanted to do. Do you remember him in those days, Sarah?

[Chairmanotti]

Oh, yes. I mean he, he was not a baby. He hadn't come from nowhere because he'd worked for. He'd been to Antwerp Academy and he'd worked for Margiela and then he worked for. I think he worked for Marc at Louis Vuitton. And they'd started Vetemont as a kind. He and his brother and other unknown people, they were called, they called themselves a collective, started this collection sort of as a side gig, didn't they? And vetement literally means clothes. So they were, they were going back to. Oh, that's so interesting because that's what he's saying he's going to do now. Clothes, clothes as clothes. And also at that time there was this huge shift in the center of gravity of fashion because I mean Demna comes from former ussr, comes from Georgia. That whole aesthetic which was coming from Eastern Europe, which was thought of as incredibly raw and yet really exciting.

[Nicole Phelps]

I still have the famous Vetement jeans that he pieced together from, from old Levi's. And it feels like that was a turning point. I mean there's so many sort of markers of the ways that as you say, he changed fashion. But that was definitely a turning point where you had high fashion embracing used clothes and turning them into luxury goods. And I remember this is going back to the Style.com days and it feels quite quaint because I remember being shocked that the jeans cost like over 1,000 doll four figure jeans. And now, yeah, like nobody bats an eye. I Mean, it's ridiculous, but still, fashion has become so, so astronomically expensive in, in the last 10 years.

[Chairmanotti]

Yeah, you're bringing back, you're triggering so many memories because in one of those, the very first piece I bought from Vetement was one in the very, very early days. And same as you, this was a, an oversized black, which was so good. I mean, I still got it. It's got a kind of swing effect to it. So I think, you know, when you see what you're talking about, which is the Recuperated jeans whatever, and that kind of there is a street elegance. There was always a street elegant side to Demna, which then he elevated. But those two things ran very much in parallel. But I agree with you, Laia, because when you actually look back at it, so much has been normalized.

[Sarah Mower]

I think he was really the last designer, like the last appointment that was actually shocking that people were like, why? Because like Balenciaga was still so. I mean, Balenciaga is Balenciaga and he was so from the, you know, not from the street, but like his style is from the streets. It was like T shirts. Like my favorite Vetement look is still that like gray sweatpants that are like high waisted with the asymmetrical top. Like it's even describing it is so simple. But when you look at it, you're like, oh, I wanna be that person. Like it was so the opposite of what everyone expected Balenciaga to be. And I mean it's something that he fought, I guess basically the whole 10 years that he was there. But I feel like that was the last time where we were like, oh my God, this is a crazy like appointment. And yeah, it's funny that, that he did sort of still fought those same not haters, but like he still fought those same sort of questions. And like the whole, his whole tenure was still like people being like, you can't have a Balenciaga this and you can't have a Balenciaga that. And sometimes I was that person and sometimes I was like, no, no, this is good. But I feel like that's what's good. You know, when you can. Like yesterday we were arguing about something else in the office and Nicole was like, I love it when people disagree because it's, you know, it's good when, when you're making work that's making everybody just, you know, that makes you be in your feelings.

[Nicole Phelps]

So we should go back to Balenciaga Pre Demna, paint a picture of what was going on there when he got this appointment.

[Sarah Mower]

Well, Alexander Wang was. Had just been there for a handful of seasons, and that was. It was. I think that was also a shocking. There was also a shocking appointment for Balenciaga to name Alexander Wang, who was, you know, young king of New York fashion at the time. But it was not. I don't think it was deemed successful at the time. So it was not. Which, I mean, it was very pretty, but it was not.

[Nicole Phelps]

Alex followed an incredible.

[Chairmanotti]

Nicola.

[Nicole Phelps]

Nicola, of course, Nicolas Ghesquier.

[Sarah Mower]

That is Nicolasquier. So, yeah, Nicolas Ghesquier, basically. I mean, every collection that he did, he was. Was he there about 10?

[Nicole Phelps]

A little more than that, I think, maybe because he was there in the late 90s.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah, but every collection that he did there was amazing from, like, from the beginning. And. And I always love that before that, Nicola was doing, like, funeral clothes in Japan, which is like, my favorite fact about it. But, yeah, so the. Basically the. The stakes were high for this Balenciaga appointment because Nicola basically do no wrong and did no wrong the whole time he was there. And then Alex Wang came on, and it was different vibe.

[Nicole Phelps]

A short tenure.

[Sarah Mower]

It was a short tenure and a different vibe. So it was interesting thinking about that too, and thinking about all of the recent appointments that they sort of took another risk sort of in a real unknown instead of going for somebody that could have felt maybe more safe. But, yeah, Balenciaga was like, they needed someone to come in and just make it. Make it What? Demna did it.

[Nicole Phelps]

Sarah, can you remember back to that debut? It was for fall 2016, the mood of the room and how the show made you feel?

[Chairmanotti]

Well, I mean, the anticipation was that, you know, you could feel it in your every fiber. And actually it was done, as I remember, in a. I mean, in a quadrangle. It was very. There was no sort of production values to it. It was clean. And we just knew the min that it started with a suit that Eliza Douglas had on, which was very, very tailored in a very expert way, very sober. And then it built up to, as you said, the Helly Hansen moment, which was the. This red puffer which was worn off the shoulder, or not just worn off the shoulder, cut off the shoulder. And then this incredible turtleneck. Ski turtleneck, I suppose, which was encrusted with crystals. I mean, that's when you just get that jolt of electricity. You could just feel that everybody was that. That really, really nailed it. And you were there. Nicole, what did you. Did you feel?

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes, I. You know, the excitement, as you say, is sort of. It sort of Pulses through the audience. You know, we're all crushed up together and you can feel everybody start leaning. And, yeah, it doesn't happen very often in shows, and when it does, it makes it so exciting. And it did feel very much like he understood and he had studied the Cristobal Balenciaga archive. But then maybe he started moving away from that quite quickly. Demna. And, you know, there were touches here and there, but then it took until he relaunched couture to see him really dive back into the Cristobal legacy. And the couture was just epic for me too. I just loved looking at those couture images. I didn't get to see a lot of the couture in person. So. Do you remember going to that first couture show?

[Chairmanotti]

Yes, because he had not so much redesigned as replicated the original couture salon, which is. I mean, as Balenciaga designed it with all kind of plasterwork in it. And I think, ah, yes, I'm remembering now. It was only shown online as a lookbook, but it was paced out like an old fashioned, very old fashioned, old school couture show in that I think everybody had a number and there was a voiceover. It was kind of between that it was very silent, especially the tailoring, the men's tailoring and women's tailoring, which is absolutely superb. That's what I related to. It became in some ways a parody in later seasons because, I mean, that's what Demner was always doing. You could never quite tell whether he was just having a joke at our expense or whatever. It definitely got him, you know, all the Internet and social media hits in the world. I don't know what you think of that lyre, that kind of line. He always treads, actually, between being quite serious and you thinking, she's having a joke on us.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah, I think that. I mean, I think that frisson, that, like, that tension is what makes it exciting because in a way, you know, he was really taking risks every season, whether they were risks in a good way or a bad way. Like, you know, I think a lot of the couture gowns were beautiful, but sometimes I would just see, like, a woman being barely able to move. And my second wave comes out and I'm like, what are we, you know, what are we highlighting here? But I think that that's also. I feel like that was also part of what he was trying to do. And it felt like he was really working through real life problems. Real life problems, as in modernity, in every show and in Every season. And that's why you could always find. Yeah, and I think that's where that tension came from because he was, as you said, yes, all designers are autobiographical to a degree, but I think because he came from such a specific place in the world, haven't experienced displacement and having been a refugee and et cetera. Like, I think his point of view in the world was very different than the autobiographical where it's somebody that, you know, I just remember going to Studio 54 and so I love it. You know, it's a very different biography to mine. So I think that those, you know, I can imagine. You know, if you come from, you've lost everything and now you sort of find yourself in the world of wealth, which is fashion. Like all of those things were also things that I think he was trying to sort of work through in the collections.

[Nicole Phelps]

He talked to you, Sarah, a lot about being or feeling like an outsider in fashion, right?

[Chairmanotti]

Well, yes. I mean, he got his Legion d' Honneur, which is, you know, from the Culture Minister in Paris on the 27th of January. And we're all there, Ooh, we're going to dress up and we're going to the. And wearing the Palais Royal. It's so grand. And then Demna walks in in an old black T shirt with holes in it. Right, with holes in it. And so this is quite a statement. And he. Yeah, he told me a lot about how he felt that. That, well, he wanted France to pin that medal on his. On his black T shirt to, I suppose to fully recognize who he is, the refugee. I mean, it does keep. Keep coming up, if you think. When I say autobiographical. I think also he, he does see the sociopolitical. He's very conscious of the history that we're. We're living through, if you think about that. You know, when he started to do. He went for. He went from very, very fairly plain runways to then these, what we started to call immersive experiences. I mean, all these, all these words have come in over the bubbles 10 years. One of them was about. Was. Was the European Parliament looking kind of conclave, which was. Which he talked about being about all the powerful people in the world convening on this place. And you think. And it was quite. It was kind of terrifying and ominous, all these things, even though, you know, there was fashion going on. But you felt that. Is he talking about all the big power brokers? Is he talking about the, you know, really the rise of dangerous right wing parties? The one that I remember which was really terrifying, one of Demna's things was also, you know, the climate cataclysm that is upon us, really. And there was. There was a show where he had this digital sky burning. There was fire, and the Runway was basically a black pool. It could have been oil. And the front rows were submerged in this. So you had to sit and you just. And that was literally on the eve of lockdown as well. So. And then, you know, the. God, the tragic day, I think it must have been just a few days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine when Demna staged this show, which was in a sort of snow globe. But it wasn't. It wasn't at all fairy. Like, it was people struggling through refugee, like through this environment. And I mean, he did say that, you know, I've looked. My shows have always kind of anticipated what's going to happen. But he made a very big statement. Then there was a recording of a Ukrainian poet. Do you remember Nicole? And they were. He'd made T shirts in the colors of the Ukraine flag for everyone to wear. And originally it had been about. About the luxury of snow, how snow is not going to be there anymore. He said, but this. This really fed into the times. And he. And he gave. He gave a very, very explicit quote to me backstage that he and his mother had lost so much to war. You know, they'd been refugees and had had to flee up the mountains in the Caucasus and also be fed by the World Food Program. And another point, at another show, there was. There's a World Food Program T shirt, which was part of the charity thing that he. That he did. Anyway, these experiences were innumerable, really, but they were landmarks of the times we live in. I think.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes. Thinking about the AI show, which was just a couple of seasons ago, and it was all of the digital images that were, you know, being sort of. We were being bombarded with them on all sides. It was on the walls, on the ceiling, on the. On the Runway itself. And he's just. He's very sensitive to the world around him. Right.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah. I remember for that. For the show where the front row was flooded. I remember that the invitations had gone out, and all of the editors that normally sit front row, they were assigned second front row seats. So it was a lot of. Everyone was like, oh, my God, second row. Like, what the hell? I sit front row. And then when they got to the show, they saw that the front row was flooded. And I remember that being like, oh, you know, and I think that that was. That's also, like, part of his humor. But Also part of, you know, I think being in fashion, sometimes it can be hard because you're like, oh, it's just clothes, it's fluff. Like blah, blah, blah. But I think that he really. Yeah. Again, like love to sort of dig into those points and show people, you know, show people what's what.

[Nicole Phelps]

What's what, what's what?

[Chairmanotti]

Oh, the best one though. The best one, which was so. Just so hilarious. Cause he is actually a very, very funny person. Making him sound like a really somber doom monger was the red carpet show, which was at that theater. And it was a premiere of the Simpsons. The Simpsons movie that he made. But. And we were sitting there and it literally was so meta that we were the audience and we were watching people come along the red carpet as you would at an awards ceremony. And then you realize. Cause that was on the screen, first of all. You realize that. That actually there was a little. Little caption which said, look, 12 look. The catwalk show was on. People coming into. Into the auditorium. And then they all got in. And then the Simpsons episode, the Balenciaga Simpsons episode played. So. And that. That was post Covid when everybody really, really needed a laugh. But it was just so clever because it was about fashion, it was about celebrity. It's about everything that fashion has become, but in a. In a really funny way. I mean, Marge getting to muddle so good. My favorite moment.

[Nicole Phelps]

It's really clever.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah. I think there is a thing about him also trying to. Maybe not purposefully, but like he always made fashion part of the culture at large. Like, I think when so much of it can be like, you know, it's very like if, you know, you know, if you get it, you get it. Like this is a reference to something that if you don't know, you lost it. Like, I feel like there was also something about him being like, no, let's just. This is. You know, Balenciaga can be part of the world. Like even. I don't know. Like, I feel like the sneakers, just normal dad sneakers that he. Which honestly still look cool. Like sometimes I think I should buy a pair. Cause I feel like in five years.

[Nicole Phelps]

It'Ll be collector's item.

[Sarah Mower]

Good to wear them again. But all of that stuff. Like, you know, the dhl, which was so iconic and so part of DHL is the international mailing company that every fashion company uses to like mail samples back and forth. Like it was a very, you know.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yeah. He talked about at that LA show he did a couple of Decembers ago. He talked a lot about how his references were really low culture. You know, like, sometimes you do, as you were saying, designers try to find the most esoteric reference. And he was happy to name check, like Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton. And in that show, I feel like.

[Sarah Mower]

The virality and the social media and all of that does also come back to, you know, he had a sense of humor. Because I think, you know, the way to make a splash on social media, the way to cut through the noise, is to be unexpected. And, you know, I think humor plays a lot into that, especially from, you know, big fashion brands. And I feel like the Simpsons thing was also, like, yes, it was fun, but it was also like, of course that was gonna go viral. Like, of course that was going to make to have an effect. And I think he leaned into. He leaned into the celebrity thing both. Like, you know, it became like a driver in a way. But I think sometimes it also became a bit of a distraction or a bit of a detriment.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yeah, it's an interesting trajectory. Right. Because if you think back to, I think his very beginning at Balenciaga, he didn't seem to all that interested in celebrity, right?

[Chairmanotti]

No, it was his own celebrity models, the personalities that he put on, literally. Oh, yes. And there's something else that we should talk about. His own celebrity, because there came a time when we were informed that we would no longer be speaking of his second name. Suddenly, he becomes one of the people who. They're so famous, they only have one name, first name.

[Sarah Mower]

So it's funny because I feel like we were already talking about, you know, it's not like we need to be like Demna, which. Which Demna. Like, there was only one Demna, and there would probably only be one Demna until like, you know, probably 15 years from now when somebody who loved Demna gave birth to a child, named them Demna, and they become, oh, that's going to happen.

[Chairmanotti]

Like the Chanels.

[Sarah Mower]

Yes, exactly the same as the coalition else.

[Nicole Phelps]

Last. Last summer at the couture show in Paris, I was walking in right behind Nicole Kidman, and all of the paparazzi were screaming, nicole.

[Choma]

Nicole.

[Laia Garcia Furtado]

Oh, my God.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes, that was. That was hysterical for me.

[Sarah Mower]

I hope that she tells this story. She was like, Nicole Phelps was walking behind me and screaming for her.

[Nicole Phelps]

More with Sarah Mower and Laia Garcia Furtado after the break.

[Laia Garcia Furtado]

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? In 1997, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte Yorke. On a new HBO show called called Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in New York City, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now I want to connect with you and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes together with special guests. What will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. Are youe a Charlotte? Is much more than just re watching our beloved show. It brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor, and, of course, some optimism. Listen to Are youe a Charlotte? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nicole Phelps]

Let's talk a little bit more about the pieces themselves, because while he really was and continues to be an incredible showman, the clothes themselves are what we, I think, really, really felt a lot about.

[Chairmanotti]

Yes. I mean, he's somebody who really doesn't know how to make clothes. He talks a lot about how he didn't work from sketching. It was all about draping in the in 3D in the studio. And he gave me this great, great quote and that exit interview, as it were, about how. How it's about play. So those, those big sizes came, like, how many jackets can I get on before I literally. It literally, you know, can't. Somebody can't move anymore. Or just, I suppose if, you know, if he's. If somebody walks in with an IKEA bag and he's like, oh, that's what we used as students in Antwerp. We're going to just do our own IKEA bag. And it looks, it is an illusion because although it seems like it's a replica, actually, it's made of the finest leather. And that's what he speaks about in that exhibition. It's open through July 9, and it's open to the public as well. And the way it's curated is that you approach each piece and the voice of Demna comes out at you and describes what it is. So. Yeah, but it turns out it's not his voice.

[Sarah Mower]

Oh, is it an AI voice?

[Chairmanotti]

He said that he wrote the captions and then, yeah, they trained AI to speak, to do Demna speak. And of course, he said he couldn't tell the difference between that and himself. I mean, there are lots and lots of different strategies. And he. He reflected on it as being, you know, 10 years of brain work, that it's intellectual as well as fun. It's play. But he doesn't want to do conceptualism anymore.

[Nicole Phelps]

Yes. Tell us what he teased about Gucci.

[Chairmanotti]

He said that this. Yes. This exhibition is closing one chapter. The chapter of him being from the age of. I suppose I think he was 35. Is he 45 now? Something like that. And the next chapter is going to be just about making great and swear word clothes items. Tailoring, I think he said tailoring the greatest pants, but the. The pants, not lots of different pants. And I think, yeah, that, that, that links to him. I think what he wants to prove is that he is a designer's designer. That's the feeling I got from it, that he doesn't want to be the guy who just did the hoodies and the tracksuits. But I've learned my lesson with him is that you could never take what he says at face value. I mean, la. You were talking about the shock value of him being appointed at Balenciaga. I mean, same with Gucci, right?

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah. I mean, I think it is exciting because I think we are expecting a reinvention because everything that he changed in fashion and you know, he did change the way people dress, like, is all just what we consider normal. Like the other day, you know, he really championed sort of this oversized silhouette and these like, you know, turning your body into shapes kind of thing. And I realized that so much that, like, if I wear a regular sized jacket or a regular sized pair of pants, I look in the mirror and I'm like, what is this? Because I'm so used to wearing like giant shirt, giant pants. You know, like, you forget what you look like outside of this aesthetic, outside of these shapes that he, you know, that he championed that it's very, you know, it's very like the devil wears.

[Nicole Phelps]

Product code about code.

[Sarah Mower]

You know, it's how you don't know that. You don't know how it happened. I mean, we know how it happened, but, you know, people don't know how it happened. But like, what happened was Demna. Demna happened. And that's why we're all just going around wearing giant jackets and giant pants and. And big sneakers and things that are ugly, which I'm such. Like, I love something that is so ugly that I need to have it. And you know, that's very like all of those things. So I think it's like, is he gonna be so beautiful? Is he just gonna lean into pretty? Is it gonna be delicate? Is it gonna be a lot of flute? You know, like what but we're all just. I think the pressure is that we want to see something that's so unlike Demna that we're like, oh, my God.

[Nicole Phelps]

You know, one thing I just. Just put together is at. At Balenciaga, he did not follow the star, so to speak. You know, there was a gap between him and Nicola. And the same thing is happening now at Gucci. Like, he is not following Alessandra Michele. He's following another short tenure. And there is a real advantage to not following the megastar because it's, as we all know, it's how hard it is to follow, you know, fashion's hero.

[Sarah Mower]

Yeah, you get a little bit of a clean, cleanish slate.

[Nicole Phelps]

Well, Sarah, we will be paying very close attention to your coverage of the couture shows. Can't wait to hear what you have to say about Demna's final Balenciaga.

[Sarah Mower]

Thank you.

[Chairmanotti]

Thank you. That's going to be a really big moment.

[Sarah Mower]

Thank you for having me.

[Chairmanotti]

Bye.

[Nicole Phelps]

That's it for the Run Through. See you next week.

[Chloe Mel]

The Run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Stephanie Kariuki. It's engineered by Pran Bandy and mixed by Mike Kutchman. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of global audio.

[Chairmanotti]

From prx.