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- [00:01]
Sponsor
This episode of the Run through is brought to you by eBay. EBay. It's the place to fall in love with new, pre loved, vintage and rare fashion over and over again. Your favorite designers expertly authenticated. Yeah, ebay. Things people love.
- [00:19]
Margo Ambuba
Megan and Chloe. What kind of bees make milk?
- [00:22]
Chloe Mal
Oh, boy, I don't know.
- [00:24]
Margo Ambuba
Boobies.
- [00:34]
Chloe Mal
This is the Run Through. I'm Chloe Mal, and today on the show, we are asking, why are boobs everywhere?
- [00:42]
Margo Ambuba
Well, I do think we know why partially. 50% of the population has them.
- [00:47]
Chloe Mal
I guess we're done then. Here in the Vogue offices, we have been talking a lot about how boobs are back. And we are seeing this from the Runway to the culture at large to our very own Vogue brethren. Like on the COVID of British Vogue, Dua Lipo is wearing Miu Miu's Fall 2025 Bullet Bra. Lauren Sanchez has some very famous cleavage. The New Yorker wrote a very funny piece about the boob index and how boobs might be the indicator of a bull market. In the same way that the hemline index famously indicates a bull or be. There is, especially this week, the Sydney Sweeney of it all. There has been a lot of discourse about her chest that I think she's handled with aplomb. And Margo even wrote about how boobs were the best accessory at the Met Gala. So to understand what might be behind our embrace of the breast, we are chatting with two writers who have been thinking a lot about breasts lately. Megan Nolan is an Irish novelist and journalist based in New York. She is the author of the international bestseller Acts of Desperation and Ordinary Human Failings, which have been translated into 14 languages. She is also working on a book of essays and by the time this episode airs, you will be able to read her essay on breasts on vogue.com. welcome, Megan.
- [02:15]
Megan Nolan
Thank you. Glad to be here.
- [02:18]
Chloe Mal
Margo Ambuba is Vogue's senior Beauty and Wellness editor and a friend of the pod. And Margot has written a lot about breasts and how boobs keep showing up in the zeitgeist. Welcome to you both. We are very happy to have you here. Breasts are something that are important to all of us from a very early age. And I would like to hear a little bit, Megan, about your piece about the best of the breast. How did this idea come about and what was your reaction when you got. I know that you worked with our colleague Chloe Sciamma on this. When Chloe's email came into your inbox saying, I would love you to examine the state of the breast, what was your reaction?
- [03:04]
Megan Nolan
Well, I was saying to Chloe that it's honestly, like, a body part that I don't think about that much because I've got, like, very nothing boobs. They're not like no boobs, but they're also nothing. So it's just, like, not something I think about very much about my own body. And then once we started talking about ideas about the cultural zeitgeist around conservative dressing and other things like that, I started to get really interested. So, yeah, I think it was mostly when we got into the more cultural realm that I was able to figure out some things that I was thinking.
- [03:35]
Chloe Mal
Well, I loved your piece, and I also. We had talked a lot here about the return of the breast on the Runway, but I liked the cultural threads that you wove together around that, especially the way that women baring their breasts on screen has really changed in the way we regard that. And so that was something that I had not thought about, but thought was very interesting.
- [03:58]
Megan Nolan
Also.
- [03:58]
Chloe Mal
The piece features a major photo shoot by Stephen Klein styled by Patty Wilson, and the model's Amelia Gray and Delilah Bell are both wearing bullet bras, the Prada and Miu Miu ones, respectively. Margot and Booba, you are not a stranger to the bullet bra.
- [04:16]
Margo Ambuba
Yes, I'm wearing one right now.
- [04:17]
Chloe Mal
Oh, my gosh.
- [04:19]
Margo Ambuba
Stop looking at my chest.
- [04:20]
Chloe Mal
Well, this is what happened to me recently. A few weeks ago, Margo and I were talking about what her subject of her weekly wellness newsletter was gonna be, and I was like, oh, you're wearing the bullet bra. And a colleague said, chloe, you're not allowed to say that. And I was like, if she writes about it, I'm allowed to ask her about it.
- [04:35]
Margo Ambuba
It's true. They were looking especially pointy that day, Per. Yes, I think. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about the way boobs are changing. I get pitches about it all the time, but there's so many different ways that we're referring to boobs, and there's not one singular boob trend right now, which I think is really interesting. Like, when I was growing up in the 2000s, it was all about, like, the Victoria's Secret push up bra. And the bullet bra in the time that we're in is really a fashion statement, I think, in a lot of ways, because it's no longer, like, a functional when that was the only bra option they had. But it's really. People are making a choice to wear it. And that's what I find really interesting, because also, they're not the easiest to find. They're not the easiest to get yourself into as someone who wears them regularly.
- [05:19]
Chloe Mal
Like, tell me why. Because I have not worn a bullet bra. Why is it more difficult than a normal bra?
- [05:24]
Margo Ambuba
You sort of have to situate yourself in it differently, I think. But also the reason I started wearing vintage lingerie and underwear is because I wear vintage clothing, and so the shapewear looks better underneath it. And it's really interesting, this juxtaposition that we're seeing of people wearing, like, modern clothing with bullet bras under it. I find, like, very cool and a nice way to sort of mesh them together. But also, they don't have, like, traditional elastic. They're typically made of satin. Things like that. There's just not the same structural. There's no underwire. So if you're not hook and eye, it is hook and eye a lot of the time, but it's typically a couple of them. And then the way the straps move is through a ribbon system.
- [06:00]
Chloe Mal
Oh, wow.
- [06:01]
Margo Ambuba
Not through, like, your classic sort of. Whatever the normal way that you adjust something is. So it just, like, takes a little bit longer to get yourself into. It's more of a choice, I think, than like, a thought. Like, oh, yeah, I have to wear a bra. You have to be like, I'm wearing this bra.
- [06:19]
Chloe Mal
Megan, I liked that when you tried on a bullet bra, your mother said that you looked like her mother.
- [06:24]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, she was appalled. She was just like, why are you choosing this? Like, this is what I fought to get rid of.
- [06:29]
Margo Ambuba
Did you feel any differently about when you were wearing it, about the way your body. Body was.
- [06:34]
Megan Nolan
And actually, I was just thinking when you were talking just now about the like, dominance of a certain. Like. Of a particular kind of breast shape in the 90s. Like, you know, same here. When I was growing up, it was like, oh, I don't have the huge ones that you're meant to have, so I'm just going to kind of forget about my breasts. And then actually, I found really nice during writing this article was that I was paying attention to my body in a different way because I was doing things like trying on bullet bras that don't necessitate a particular kind of breast. And, yeah, it was really. It was really nice to, like, get. Cause I also have a lot of vintage dresses, and it was really nice to, like, try them with underwear that actually was designed for them.
- [07:06]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah.
- [07:06]
Megan Nolan
Yeah.
- [07:07]
Chloe Mal
Margot, were you surprised to see them back on the Runway?
- [07:11]
Margo Ambuba
Definitely, because I feel like bullet bras and everything sort of the lingerie look that. That entails, which Is like a girdle or a corset. A lot of the time things like that have been sort of removed from fashion because they are told that they're, like, uncomfortable, or you're being told that this is what your mom worked to get rid of or your grandma worked to get rid of because it was a sign of patriarchal body shaping. And it's funny for me because my fiance is like, your boobs are so pointy. I assumed because that was just like, you like wearing old stuff. I was like, no, this is a fashion statement that I'm making, not like a.
- [07:50]
Chloe Mal
And he was like, cool, yeah, I'm on board.
- [07:53]
Margo Ambuba
He was like, let me go back to my fabletics shopping order. But I think that a lot of that is coming back in, like, more modern ways where people aren't necessarily wearing a girdle, wearing all of the pieces, wanting to wear a corset, or if they are, it's so purposeful, you know, like at the Glenn Martin show that we just saw his debut at Margiela, people were wearing really interesting body shaping pieces. It was very thoughtfully done. Not like before. In the 50s, people wore like four pieces of body shaping equipment every day. A lady.
- [08:28]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, did you guys. I just thought of this artist called Mikaela Stark. Do you know her? She makes these really beautiful corsets that are kind of almost designed to highlight the parts of your body that traditional corsets are meant to conceal. So she uses them to kind of emphasize belly fat. And she's very restricted at the waist, but then emphasizing other parts of her body that do have fat. And it's like, yeah, I think those are really gorgeous. And, you know, they're not for everyday wear or even. They're not even really fashion as such, but they're a kind of interesting mode of using the corset in a new way.
- [08:57]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Chloe Mal
Margot's threatening to have an appointment with. What's his name? Mr. Myrtle. Dr. Girdle.
- [09:03]
Margo Ambuba
Mr. Pearl.
- [09:04]
Chloe Mal
Mr. Pearl.
- [09:04]
Margo Ambuba
Oh, I would love that. I would fly to Scotland on my own dime to meet with him. He is like the couture corseter.
- [09:12]
Chloe Mal
He's like the Willy Wonka of corsets.
- [09:14]
Margo Ambuba
He's very hard to get a hold of. Like, he doesn't leave ever since him. Yeah, he barely answers my emails on his hotmail. Like, I am desperate. He can sniff out my desperation through the emails we all love. Yeah, I would love to meet with him. But also, I feel like a big boob moment that we had recently was Kylie Jenner. She Caused quite the stir because A girl on TikTok posted, you know, a classic, like, front facing video being like, girl, tell me what your boob implant size is. Tell me what you got done. And Kylie actually answered back. And this was sort of the first real, like direct face to face admittance. Like, on the record, I got exactly this. She came back with like the exact recipe you need to get Kylie Jenner's boobs. And I thought that that was like, very interesting because it was wrapped in at this time, I can't remember which came first, I think her boobs. And then Chris told us that she had a facelift. So all of this plastic surgery, transparency was happening at the same time. But Dr. Garth Fisher was who did Kylie's boob job and also, interestingly enough, did Chris's first facelift. But he has been like, totally swamped with people asking for the Kylie Jenner now.
- [10:34]
Chloe Mal
Well, didn't you go and hold her implant?
- [10:37]
Margo Ambuba
Okay. Yes. So I was getting Botox at my doctor's office, who does my Botox, and he had an implant on his desk. And I picked it up and was sort of just like squeezing it while I was getting injected.
- [10:50]
Chloe Mal
It's a stress ball.
- [10:51]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah, it's a stress ball, basically. And then he told me that it was one half of Kylie's implant.
- [10:57]
Megan Nolan
Wow.
- [10:57]
Margo Ambuba
Yes. So I have requested a set for the Vogue office of the actual size. But it was crazy because it was. I mean, I have very small hands, but it was like quite large. And it also brought up this conversation of like, there's so many interesting techniques now. Above the muscle. Below the muscle. People want sporty boobs like Giselle. People want big boobs like Kylie. There's sort of like.
- [11:21]
Chloe Mal
Yeah, don't people want. Some people want smaller breasts now.
- [11:25]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah. We're seeing a lot of people getting a very natural implant which is literally just half a size. It's called below the muscle, which is like a. Or like halfway below the muscle, which is a different technique of placing the implant. Typically you can go fully below the muscle or above the muscle in. Those are two different aesthetic looks. But if you do it halfway, it's supposedly now the most natural way of doing it.
- [11:50]
Chloe Mal
What are they call that like ballet boobs or ballet boobs. A long yoga boobs.
- [11:54]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:55]
Chloe Mal
There's a lot of different.
- [11:55]
Margo Ambuba
Whatever. Insert sort of like exercise here. I think they're all kind of getting at the same aesthetic. Can you tell me what you think?
- [12:02]
Megan Nolan
Yeah. I spoke to quite a few surgeons when I was researching the piece. And yeah, not only were there a lot a big rise in actual reductions over the last five years, all of them said huge surge in reductions in general. And then also, yeah, people looking for more. Yeah, like more neutrally sized and not making such a statement when they were getting them pretty much. And yeah, a lot of them did mention athletics and that the women didn't want to be burdened by disproportionate breasts, which would stop them doing the exercise that is important to them or that they want to be a big part of their lives.
- [12:34]
Chloe Mal
Yeah, it's interesting because I do feel like there's two parallel trends happening at the same time, which is minimizing your breasts as a focal point and creating something that feels natural and is not inhibiting to your lifestyle. And on the other side of the spectrum, re celebrating breasts and having no shame or embarrassment about them, a la Kylie Jenner being like, yep, this is what I got. Or Lauren Sanchez being like, I'm at the inauguration. I don't care. This is McQueen. I look good. I don't care if Mark Zuckerberg's eye me. Like, this is just.
- [13:11]
Margo Ambuba
This is.
- [13:12]
Chloe Mal
This is a natural thing that we're proud of. I mean, TBD weather natural. But this is something, you know, and I sort of respect that. I wonder why we're looking at all of this at the same time right now.
- [13:27]
Margo Ambuba
To me, it sort of reads as, like, feminism finally coming for how you feel about your body and just like, taking the approach you want with your body, which is you can get plastic surgery to get smaller boobs, bigger boobs, you can get a reduction, you can get implants, whatever. You can do nothing. But it's like people are finally just wanting to shame without shame, like, get to the body that they want.
- [13:50]
Chloe Mal
Okay, that's a good take.
- [13:52]
Megan Nolan
I think also that, like, I was talking to a couple of fashion historians and theorists in the course of the article, and they kind of spoke about some backlash to the moment that I don't know precisely when you would date this to, but, like, I guess 2016ish, when body positivity was, like, becoming a very branded and marketable thing. And a couple of the people that I spoke with were talking about, you know, that there was in that case, quite a universalized thing of, like, everything can be beautiful. And that some of the backlash that they're experiencing with the smaller breast size thing is actually a little bit more related to, you know, to Ozempic era, like, rejuvenated thinness fixation stuff.
- [14:33]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah, I Mean, Ozempic really changes so much about your body. But the real problem is that if you're on it, you're losing weight so quickly that when you're losing weight at a normal rate, one, your skin can keep up, but also like your breasts can keep up all these things as opposed to when it's so rapid like that because of the medical intervention, all of a sudden you're at your like goal weight, but you have skin in places you didn't expect because your body wasn't given the grace to like, sort of lose weight at a standard rate that it could keep up with.
- [15:02]
Chloe Mal
What else did the fashion historian tell you, Megan?
- [15:05]
Megan Nolan
We were talking a bit about corsetry and about like Vivienne Westwood, like the original stuff, I guess, in the 80s, is that right? Or around then. And she was talking a bit about the kind of history of body modification in general. So with. With garments, but also with actual physical intervention in the past. And I mean we had. This is almost irrelevant actually. But like it was very interesting the. She was talking about all the bizarre materials that people would use for breast implants in historical times where they were just like, let's fill you up with lead and see what happens. Wow. Yeah, it was very.
- [15:36]
Margo Ambuba
The first rhinoplasty wool was wax, right?
- [15:39]
Megan Nolan
Exactly. Yeah.
- [15:40]
Margo Ambuba
And she couldn't get too close to the fire for the rest of her life because it would melt or it would become like very flexible.
- [15:47]
Chloe Mal
That is crazy. Wait, speaking of wild implant materials, Margot, I'm obsessed with a recent story you did about a newly FDA approved implant material.
- [16:00]
Margo Ambuba
Let me tell you, this Botox appointment might have been Dr. Shout out to Dr. Schaefer might have been for my own vanity, but it was a productive work meeting because also during that time, while I am holding that implant, it was a Nitrell implant.
- [16:16]
Chloe Mal
What does that mean?
- [16:16]
Margo Ambuba
That's just a brand name.
- [16:19]
Chloe Mal
Never thought about brands of implants, but.
- [16:20]
Margo Ambuba
I guess, sure, yeah, there's tons of like, there's all different types. There's textured, there's non textured silicone types, like different implant fillers. There's all sorts of things I got you. But one thing that he mentioned, we were just sort of, you know, like chatting about what was going on is he mentioned that he had just gotten his first batch of cadaver fat. Dun, dun, dun, dun dun. And that he was starting to use it for implants to replace implants. So for people that wanted a breast augmentation, but they wanted it more natural. And to me this is reading as sort of like not natural as a natural looking, but natural substance.
- [17:04]
Chloe Mal
Oh, some natural feeling. I'm making a squeezing gesture.
- [17:09]
Margo Ambuba
Yeah. I didn't really ask to. I mean, he didn't have anyone on site at the moment for me to feel. But yes, I believe that. I mean, you can feel an implant, right? I have tons of friends that have implants. You can feel that it is not your breast tissue. That's not good or bad. That's just like it has a different density than a human flesh's.
- [17:34]
Chloe Mal
Margo's often telling me about the density of her breasts.
- [17:37]
Margo Ambuba
You have to be very careful. If you have dense breasts. You need to be very proactive about getting an ultrasound instead of just a mammogram. That's my psa. But he had started doing. Basically what it is, is they are harvesting fat. They being this company that he buys it from, which is a medical device company harvesting fat from cadavers. And then it is being treated so that all of the biological whatever stuff. So like DNA and stuff is removed.
- [18:10]
Chloe Mal
Oh, wow.
- [18:11]
Margo Ambuba
So it's not as if I was gonna try to give you my blood. We'd have to be like, are you a positive or you be positive? They're like rendering it kind of. It's rendered totally DNA less. Totally. All the genetic material. There we go. That's what I was trying to think of. All of the genetic material is removed from this fat so that it can go in into anyone. So it's not like blood types where you have to be worried about it. And it is supposed to be the next wave of breast augmentation.
- [18:40]
Chloe Mal
You heard it here first.
- [18:41]
Megan Nolan
Yeah. I would still just be aware that there was a dead person stuff in me though.
- [18:45]
Chloe Mal
It's a great plot for the substance too.
- [18:48]
Margo Ambuba
Well, it is because it's like a bioidentical. Oh, it's not even a bioidentical. It is a human source, supposedly. One of the things that Dr. Schaefer touched on was that you like, once this fat cell is done doing its job in your boob, it's going to die. That's regardless of it happens on your thigh, it happens wherever and it will be replaced by one of your own.
- [19:10]
Megan Nolan
I see.
- [19:10]
Margo Ambuba
So eventually it's like this filler called Renuva, which does this, but it's a filler, so eventually they will be wholly your boobs. I don't know how long that takes. Yeah, I think it's quite interesting, I mean, because I really have noticed, like the mahafication of wanting work done where people are like, I still want filler, but I want the most natural filler possible. Natural meaning the substance, not natural.
- [19:35]
Chloe Mal
Look, I want to tell our listeners who may not know what MAHA is. I know it's very close to your lexicon.
- [19:40]
Margo Ambuba
I think about it all the time when work on pieces about it. This is Robert F. Kennedy Jr's Make America Healthy Again movement. It's something that especially. Cause I worked at GOOP for years. I've been really fascinated by. It's to me like where a lot of different political orientations and wellness ideologies meet up on the other side in a place.
- [20:05]
Chloe Mal
So Venn diagram overlap for a lot of very strong belief systems.
- [20:09]
Margo Ambuba
Yes. And it's. I mean some of the things I think are quite. Could be quite legitimate, like, yeah, we should get out and walk around more. Like we should exercise more, we should try to eat more whole foods. But in my opinion there are also some predatory aspects of it and people are taking advantage of like wellness and illness for political gains. But so this is the idea to me that this Make America Healthy Again idea has made its way into the dermatological office where people are still like, I want Instagram face. I wanna look like I've had work done, but I want the most natur substance to make me look not natural.
- [20:49]
Megan Nolan
Right. Aesthetically, they don't want to look natural.
- [20:51]
Margo Ambuba
Yes.
- [20:52]
Megan Nolan
Yeah.
- [20:52]
Margo Ambuba
But they want the natural substance to make them look natural.
- [20:54]
Megan Nolan
Yeah. Because this was another interesting thing that came up when I was speaking both to the doctors and to cultural historians and people about relating conservative women to the more obviously false aesthetic and yeah, I guess MAGA women with very intentional, not. Not intended to be discreet filler and surgery and you know, just garments and looking a particular very, very polished and very glamorous way that's kind of almost meant to signal no, I am trying and I'm trying for this kind of person and this kind of world, you know?
- [21:29]
Chloe Mal
Yeah.
- [21:30]
Margo Ambuba
What was so interesting when I was at. I actually attended the MAHA inaugural ball in D.C. and covered it for the website. And one thing that was really interesting, it was a room full of breast implants. It was a room full of filler. It was a room full of not naturally gifted looks. And I'm not judging people for that because I also give Botox and filler. It was just very interesting. The cognitive dissonance.
- [22:00]
Chloe Mal
More on breasts after the break.
- [22:12]
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- [22:49]
Chloe Mal
Where do you get filler?
- [22:51]
Margo Ambuba
Where? In my face. Yeah, I have a little bit of cheekbone filler and my big thing. And that's because it's to offset the Botox that I get in my jaw, which literally changes my life. It's an off label use, which means it's not FDA approved, but your doctor will still do it. It's studied enough that it's deemed safe, and it helps me stop clenching my jaw.
- [23:09]
Megan Nolan
Right.
- [23:10]
Chloe Mal
Oh, interesting.
- [23:12]
Margo Ambuba
But because of that, I'm losing volume in the bottom half of my face, so I add a little volume to the top half to pick up the slack.
- [23:18]
Chloe Mal
Wow. I keep thinking about. Margot wrote a great piece after the day that the Miu Miu show and.
- [23:27]
Megan Nolan
The Bullet bras debuted.
- [23:28]
Chloe Mal
It was. There's. I would say there's one or two moments like this each fashion season where there's, like, this frieza of excitement around something new that's debuted on the Runway. It often is involved. Mrs. Prada and this moment when the bullet bras walked down the Runway, immediately everyone was talking about it. And Margot did a great piece about it and how it really reignited her vintage undergarment passion. But I keep thinking about what Mrs. Prada said backstage, which was, do we need femininity in this difficult moment to lift us up? Which I think is a very cute brassiere joke. But also I wonder, is it too much of a stretch to make a political connection to this breast moment? And I think about Naomi Fry's piece for the New Yorker about this being the boob index correlating with the markets and the economic tidings. But I wonder if we can correlate the two or not.
- [24:26]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, I think that there's definitely something interesting to me about the form versus function in terms of breasts in that obviously they're decorative in a certain way and they're aesthetic, and they're also obviously very directly functional for people who have kids. And I was talking to. Do you guys know that the brand called Fashion Brand Company by Panacea.
- [24:46]
Margo Ambuba
Yes. They make outfits for the lizards also.
- [24:48]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, exactly.
- [24:49]
Chloe Mal
I'm sorry. They make outfits for lizards.
- [24:51]
Margo Ambuba
The designer owns a horned frog, Liz. Horned lizard. Some.
- [24:56]
Chloe Mal
An actual lizard, or is this, like.
- [24:57]
Margo Ambuba
The name of a band? No, no, no. Owns a lizard. And so the designer will make, like, a very fun, playful fashion piece and then make the exact outfit for her lizard.
- [25:07]
Megan Nolan
It's amazing.
- [25:07]
Chloe Mal
Wait, why haven't we featured this lizard on vogue.com, oh, my God.
- [25:10]
Megan Nolan
You have to. Honestly, she's amazing. Penelope Gasan is her name.
- [25:13]
Margo Ambuba
And we need a doge for all the other animals. I have a cat.
- [25:16]
Megan Nolan
Yes, she could do that for you, I'm sure. And she has this really amazing garment that actually somebody wore to the Met gal this year who I can't remember off the top of my head, which is like a blazer with cutouts for the breasts that she calls her breastfeeding blazer, which I was talking to her about. Yeah, have you seen this? And she was talking about designing it because she was like on her couch three days after giving birth and was back to work already, and she's breastfeeding and on her computer and she was just kind of trying to convey the insanity of juggling these two roles literally simultaneously. And yeah, that made me laugh. It's a very kind of fun and weird garment, obviously. But also, you know, she's making a serious point about what women's bodies are able to and what they're expected to do in this moment when, you know, we're ostensibly all liberated and everything's fine. And also a lot of people, a lot of women aren't liberated and everything's not fine.
- [26:05]
Chloe Mal
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [26:16]
Sponsor
EBay. It's the place to fall in love with new, pre loved, vintage and rare fashion. Over and over again, your favorite designers expertly authenticated. Yeah, eBay. Things people love.
- [26:33]
Chloe Mal
Megan, we. I brought this up a little earlier, but I am curious how you. What conclusions you came to about breasts in relation to our cultural consumption in the media and TV film. You mentioned how in 2003, the film in the Cut, it was a scandal that Meg Ryan bared her breasts and mentioned showgirls and how that sort of ruined Elizabeth Berkley's career. And I wonder how you think that has evolved. And a few of the examples of how that's shifted.
- [27:07]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, I think that a little bit related to what you were saying about there being more complexity around walking kinds of breasts are acceptable. I feel like there has been a shift in, like, the examples that you just cited there that I referred to in the article were in Meg Ryan and in the Cut and Elizabeth Berkeley. Like, it was just kind of part of a wider thing about laughing at women for all sorts of things and especially that you would by necessity project you know, kind of patheticness onto a woman. Revealing parts of herself that weren't totally sanctioned. And especially it almost seemed to be like, no, you're a star. You're an. Actually, you're a valuable woman, and we don't want you to devalue yourself by exposing things that we haven't said should be exposed.
- [27:49]
Chloe Mal
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Megan Nolan
And I think that has changed. I think there's just been a lot of change in the last 20 years about, you know, saying, you might laugh at me or you might want to laugh at me for X, Y and Z as a woman. But actually, I'm not going to let that impact me, or maybe it will impact me, but I'm going to continue to behave as I wish to behave. And obviously, that's not a universal truth, and things are going backwards in lots of ways. But I do think there is culturally a difference now about presenting your own body and not having to be, you know, in this case, literally directed by a film director to do X, Y and Z. But these, you know, performances that I refer to, I think we talk about, like, poor things. And Anora. Yeah.
- [28:27]
Chloe Mal
And Nicole Kidman in Baby Girl.
- [28:29]
Megan Nolan
Right.
- [28:29]
Margo Ambuba
Oh, I tried to watch that on the plane the other day, and I.
- [28:31]
Chloe Mal
Not a plane. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:32]
Margo Ambuba
I was like, maybe a different time.
- [28:34]
Chloe Mal
I watched Challengers next to my son, and he kept looking over when. And they were, like, all making out.
- [28:39]
Margo Ambuba
And was like, what's happening there?
- [28:42]
Megan Nolan
But, yeah, I feel like in both those films, they were very respected performances, and nobody was, you know, it just wasn't a big deal. And that seemed kind of encouraging to me in terms of. Just in terms of like, stars, you know, that they're not being bound in this completely constricted way anymore.
- [28:56]
Chloe Mal
Megan, I am curious, because this actually was an idea that came out of Fashion Month. We sort of came. A few of us came back, and.
- [29:03]
Megan Nolan
We were like, it feels like it.
- [29:04]
Chloe Mal
Was a big breast moment on the Runway. And I'm curious, sort of what you uncovered as you were doing research for this. What were some of the Runway moments that felt. That felt they kept you abreast of this trend?
- [29:19]
Megan Nolan
Well, the first one that Chloe and I were talking about was mostly that Giron Lante, you know, the silicone breastplate or chest.
- [29:24]
Chloe Mal
Will you just describe that?
- [29:26]
Megan Nolan
Yes. So I think this is March or April. Is that right? Is that when it would have been.
- [29:29]
Chloe Mal
It was early March.
- [29:30]
Megan Nolan
Right. In Paris, I think. And. And, yeah, Duran Lantica had these chest plates, some of which were. One of which was on a male model, which were quite, you know, depending on how you look. At it. They were. I mean, some people I talked to described them as, like, homically large. Like, they were.
- [29:47]
Chloe Mal
They were, like, quintessential, like, jugs.
- [29:48]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, exactly. They were like big fake boobs, you know, and they were kind of, like, pendulous and, like, swinging in a kind of arrhythmic way that was, like, borderline comic in a kind of jarring way. And the male model was kind of grinning, and it was just kind of a strange moment. And then there were also these chest plates that were kind of etched with a male physique that a woman was wearing, for instance. And so, yeah, this was like, a big moment and obviously quite shocking and talked about a lot in different ways. And I was interested because I didn't strike me particularly as, when I saw it without any context, as, like, as particularly offensive or particularly interesting, frankly. But then I did see that another designer, whose name escapes me now but is in the piece had been kind of, you know, not mortally offended, but had been talking about it being disrespectful and, like, kind of laughing at women's bodies. And a man doing this was, to her, questionable. But, yeah, I find all that part very, very interesting.
- [30:44]
Chloe Mal
I'm curious about both of your personal experiences with your breasts lately. Have you been. Margo, you've been wearing. You've been embracing your bullet bras more than maybe in the past. Have you gotten feedback on that from.
- [31:01]
Margo Ambuba
Like, strangers on the subway?
- [31:03]
Chloe Mal
On the subway?
- [31:05]
Margo Ambuba
I definitely, yes. I wear for almost the entire. Almost all of my, like, lingerie. Trousseau is vintage lingerie from the.
- [31:18]
Megan Nolan
Oh, yeah.
- [31:18]
Chloe Mal
Can you describe this woman you go visit? Cause I am sort of obsessed with her.
- [31:21]
Margo Ambuba
Yes. Okay. So I go to this fantastic place on the lake, far, far Upper east side, like, almost like where Yorktown is. Her name's Elisa, and she basically will have you totally stripped down in her very windowed store and just bring you things. And it's so fun because it's just like, stacks and stacks of incredible silks. It's the best Instagram follow also because it's just beautiful, like, 1940s silk slips and dresses and things like that. And you sort of have to tell her what you want, but then it's all, like, Goldilocks in your way through it. And so she is so funny because sometimes she'll be like, that makes your boobs look uneven for some reason. I'll be like, what? What do you mean? And then I would, like, looked at her top.
- [32:04]
Megan Nolan
What is it?
- [32:05]
Chloe Mal
Like, shopping experience?
- [32:06]
Margo Ambuba
It's Very intimate. And then I sort of looked at her. She's up a little bit on the older, like maybe in her 60s, 70s. And I was like, but are my boobs uneven? Is like what I looked at her after. But it's just like really fun in a way where I like have been burned by department store lingerie shopping because the lighting's terrible. It's such a weird transactional experience where they're like, shove a bra under the door. And you're like, I don't know if this fits me. But like, it does feel like the best option. I just want to get out of here. I'm not having a good time. It's cold. Like, the light sucks. And this is the total opposite if you're willing to get like totally naked in front of someone. But I love it.
- [32:42]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, Megan. I had a really fun experience wearing the. So Chloe very kindly got me to trial the Mugler shirt that has kind of faux nipple piercings, which I was honestly not that excited to wear. But it was really fun, actually, and also really flattering and I just really enjoyed wearing it. And that was because I just don't, as I said, I just don't think about my boobs that much. And not in a bad way. I just, I hate to wear bras, actually. And so in the summer I'm really not wearing a bra.
- [33:09]
Chloe Mal
Wow.
- [33:10]
Megan Nolan
Like, not never, but yeah, I just. If I don't need to, then I won't. And that I don't have a real job, so I don't really need to. And yeah, so like, I don't. I don't. I don't dress for them or with them in mind all that much. But I was thinking about this recently actually, because I went back home and I went to this very old fashioned lingerie store and found the most proxima garment to a bullet bra, which wasn't quite exactly correct, but it was more or less in the same ballpark. And I was talking to my mom about it and yeah, when she saw me wearing that and commented that I looked like my grandmother, we were talking about this because she also has fairly small breasts. And I was talking about how when I was a teenager, you know, when everything is so pressurized to be thin and that's a big part of your life, that I was sad then that I didn't have big boobs because I thought like, that almost acts as like an apology for not being so thin that you're like, well, I may not be a size 0, but at least I have some Boobs, if I can offer you that instead. And now that I think that's not a part of my life, like, I don't worry about being thin, it's just. Yeah, I guess, like my feelings towards my breasts are just like, I like them. I think they're nice, you know, But I don't. I don't really engage with them that much beyond that.
- [34:18]
Margo Ambuba
I actually just to think of another boob that's in the cultural zeitgeist. I went and saw Evita last weekend and Rachel Zegler is wearing a bullet bra and like sort of matching tap shorts. And most of the female identifying cast are wearing them throughout the entire show, which I thought was really interesting. Especially I'm a fan of the Madonna Evita film. And so coming from watching that where you're like, oh, the costumes, Dior me, please. And then she's just wearing. I think it's literally this brand what Katie did, which is like a replica brand that does vintage lingerie and modern fabrics. I think that she is wearing that. And I thought it was really interesting that obviously 40s are prime bullet bra time, but that that was the sort of costume of the show.
- [35:08]
Chloe Mal
What do we think is next for boobs? Hmm.
- [35:11]
Margo Ambuba
There's a lot of interesting period pieces and I'm curious if any of them like coming out with there's like nonstop Gilded age coverage. We have the Jane Austen anniversary coming up. There's a lot of sort of like period specific moments and I'm curious if any of them will bleed into fashion or lingerie in general. One thing that my bullet bra dealer did tell me when I interviewed her for this story for.com was that when Bridgerton came out, she had people coming and asking for Bridgerton style underpinnings. And she was like, you really don't even understand how many pieces that is all these things. But that her corsetry business tripled in the months after because people were so obsessed after seeing it on Bridgerton, which obviously is very sexy and you're seeing all these women in the undress while they're in the library, et cetera, et cetera. But I thought that that was really interesting. So I'm curious if any of the sort of anniversary media that we have, that's all period pieces is going to bleed in.
- [36:13]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, I do really like wearing the more structured stuff like that as. Yeah, as somebody who doesn't have big boobs, it feels really nice to be kept in, like to be like tucked in a little bit and not. And yet to have like the top part of the. Of the. Of the. You know, like the. The. The part of the chest that is not always like, I really like my collar. You know, like, the collarbones are so nice, and it's so nice to dress for those. But because I don't have particularly prominent breasts, it feels really great to have a garment like that that you're describing to, like, really showcase that whole area.
- [36:41]
Chloe Mal
Your poatrine?
- [36:42]
Megan Nolan
Is that what it's called? Okay, great. Yeah.
- [36:44]
Chloe Mal
Your poatrine is your chest area.
- [36:46]
Margo Ambuba
Thank you.
- [36:47]
Chloe Mal
I'm very drawn to the Regency style, the empire waist. I think that Empress Josephine really had something going, and I think to me, that's the most alluring shape for women's breasts. I watch Jane Austen movies often when I'm feeling stressed, and I'm always like, ugh, what a nice way to accentuate your shape.
- [37:12]
Margo Ambuba
Well, if you need someone to hook you up with some pieces, I can help you find.
- [37:18]
Chloe Mal
I mean, I don't need to wear Regency undergarments, but.
- [37:21]
Margo Ambuba
But wouldn't it be fun if you did? I mean, obviously I love Jayne Mansfield. As the last time I was on the pod, I got to interview Mariska and talk to her about how her mom is one of my bullet bra icons. So, I mean, long live the bullet bra. For me, I'm still in it.
- [37:38]
Megan Nolan
Yeah, I'm a big fan now. Thankfully, I've been converted after this.
- [37:41]
Margo Ambuba
Oh, my God. I'm glad to have you on the team. Should we go shopping at my store?
- [37:46]
Chloe Mal
Be cool.
- [37:48]
Margo Ambuba
I am being cool. I'm hosting someone.
- [37:51]
Chloe Mal
Megan, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Margot. As ever. Thank you both for keeping us abreast. I'm just gonna keep using this. And don't forget to read MeganStory now on Vogue.com. that's it for the run through. See you on Thursday. The run through is produced by Chelsea Daniel, Alex DePalma and Stephanie Kariuki. It's engineered by Pran Bandy and James Yost. It is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of global audio.
- [38:41]
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- [39:38]
Megan Nolan
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