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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to the Sales Hunter podcast. My name is Mark Hunter, CRM. Oh, those three letters send a little chill down your spine. We're going to get real. We're going to talk about CRM systems and why they are too, this late in the game, still viewed as the gotcha tool versus the getcha tool. With me today, CRM expert Taylor Payne. Why am I talking? Let's get the show going.
- [00:24]
B
Right now you're listening to the Sales Hunter podcast with Mark Hunter where the focus is to help you. You as a salesman sell with confidence and integrity. And now here's your host.
- [00:40]
A
Your CRM system, is it a gotcha tool or a getcha tool? Taylor Payne, welcome to the show. So I'm going to ask you, is your CRM system a gotcha or a getcha?
- [00:51]
C
It is a getcha tool all day long. That thing's working in the background for me right now. Mark. It is awesome. I honestly can't live without it. It blows my mind. Still to this day, at least in the solopreneur world, 60% of people don't have a CRM. And then in the enterprise space, it's mainly a gotcha tool. And it's vastly underutilized, with extreme budgets getting poured into them with a lot of hope and prayer that they're actually going to work. And they fall short. A lot of the time they do
- [01:22]
A
you know the question, Salespeople call me all the time and they ask me, hey, my numbers are, I'm not getting my numbers. What can you help me out with? And the first question I asked him, is your CRM system open right now on your computer? And it's amazing. The vast majority say no, that they don't spend any time in their CRM system. I mean, hello. Because again, they view it as an enterprise. I was with a company last week and I took an informal poll of the audience and probably about a third of them sheepishly admitted that they feel it's a gotcha tool versus a getchool. And of course, the gotcha tool means you feel it's a report. It's just going to report on you, get you, to help you get business. Okay, let's, I want to hear from you. How do we make the CRM system be a get you tool to get us business?
- [02:08]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, let's talk about this enterprise level situation for a second. The first is like for the average salesperson, right? Like the gotcha. Like are you actually doing your numbers and sticking to your follow ups and hitting your Quotas and things. I mean, that culture starts at the top, you know, Like, I think leadership really needs to own the fact that the CRM is not meant to intimidate salespeople into hitting their goals. And if we can fix that culture problem first, then some more magical things can happen. But a lot of individual salespeople within companies feel a little intimidated to even spend a lot of time in there because it's better for them if the leadership knows they're not doing anything in there, but they're still making their goals versus the CRM misreporting them. Because leadership is just looking at data and analytics all day long to see if they're pacing for their goals, quotas. And so I think there's a cultural problem overall, but that's not really my domain. I think if we like zoom in for a second about like using the CRM as a whole. The real truth behind why CRMs are so underutilized for salespeople is because really they create more administrative work for them and that means they're selling less, at least in their mind, rather than it empowering them and them starting to get their time back and make more money and these types of things. So for the individual salespeople, it feels often that the CRM is just more work that's pulling them away from doing actual sales, which is then distracting from their quota. And then the situation compounds. So it's kind of a double edged sword. You have a culture problem and you have the issue of like quite honestly, the, the effort that goes into it is not worth the output coming out of it. And so people just tend not to use it as much.
- [03:49]
A
That's what I hear a lot from salespeople. They say, man, I could spend all day in my CRM system and not be up to speed. And then they also are afraid of putting too much in there because, well, I'm going to get dinged on this, I'm going to get dinged on that. And so they almost just keep it dark. How do we correct this?
- [04:08]
C
Yeah, well, the first thing is that I think like. For too long CRMs have been thought of as an interface to put leads and prospects into and to manage deals rather than actually being tied to business objectives and outcomes and designed with the intentionality of what that business does. So the CRM ends up creating more friction for people because they're kind of just like square peg, round hole situation where that tool hasn't actually been customized to that company's culture, that company's workflow. What the salespeople actually needed to do for them. And so mission number one is like zooming out for a second, looking at this thing from a 30,000 foot view and saying, what is this actually meant to do for us over everything else? Is it that we need reporting to make sure that our salespeople are doing their jobs, or is it that we know our salespeople are doing their jobs and we just need to empower them to do their jobs faster, better, et cetera. And so once we've defined those goals, now a CRM system can actually be designed within that, that kind of train of thought. And ultimately what this boils down to is like getting the system designed in a way that matches how that company works and how that sales team works, and then at a more nuanced level, how the individual salespeople work. And so to like actually put some concrete, like terms behind this, there's this inevitable phase that you just mentioned where like I could spend all day in my CRM and still not be caught up to speed up. Well, the nature of the beast here is if you haven't been in your CRM for a while, there is going to be a moment where you have to slow down to speed up again. But when people are outside of their CRM, what are they actually doing? They're looking for new leads, people they don't have relationships with, where they kind of have to start from ground zero and they're sleuthing through social media, engaging with people they don't actually have relationships with. But the truth is, is if there are records in your CRM, if, even if they haven't been touched in a year, two years, three years, those relationships are more valuable. Those people in there are more valuable than people you don't have in the CRM. So taking even a whole week, if that's what it takes, to really acclimate yourself with the people that are inside of there and how they're categorized, you'll find more money sitting on the table or in the couch if you prefer, just by going through that process and getting familiar with the CRM, having a clean slate again so that now you can start putting people back in it and then managing them through the process. So even if it feels a little intimidating or a little slow to get ramped back up into speed again, there's just no denying that taking a second to slow down, to look at that data, to see where the gold is and start nurturing those relationships again, I mean, you gotta start there no matter what.
- [06:58]
A
Taylor, you have won the first round of our CRM championship and you get to continue on because that is so spot on what you just said. Because again, we have so many contact. It blows my mind away. Why salespeople spend all this time trying
- [07:12]
C
to develop new relationships. Right.
- [07:14]
A
You've got people you already know in your CRM system. Hello.
- [07:20]
C
And if you don't know them, they know of you. And that is absolutely massive to, you know, break through the ice.
- [07:27]
A
It is amazing at how salespeople. I contend that there's a huge amount of business for. I don't care what business you're in, whether you're a solopreneur, whether you're SMB, whether you're enterprise. There is a tremendous amount of upside in your business if you would just simply look at what you already have in your system. Do you have any, any numbers or stories of, of that you can share of people who have done that and the results that they've seen?
- [07:55]
C
Yeah, definitely. We were working with an organization, they do about 10 million. 10 million just north or so a year. They have a sales team of 10 people and they were using some different system. And honestly, if we just take a second, I'll just throw my hat in the ring for this statement. Like the system you use doesn't really matter. Like the, the technology, it's the one you use that actually makes a difference. Right. So let's just make that very clear. The technology itself is arbitrary. They're all commoditized. They all kind of do the same thing. It's. The technology is moot at that point.
- [08:25]
A
That was a. Microsoft. That, that was my. That was good. That was very good.
- [08:30]
C
Yeah.
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A
Okay, continue. Yeah.
- [08:32]
C
So, you know, they were doing about $10 million a year in a different system. And they had all the data in there, they had people in there, but it was just an expensive spreadsheet. Like a CRM without accountability is just a spreadsheet, basically. And so then that begs the question, why are we spending thousands of dollars? Why are we trying to force our people to use this when we're just, you know, using it as a spreadsheet? So the first issue is that CRMs aren't thought of as something that facilitate a process for most organizations. They are thought of as a database. And in fact, database and CRM are often interchangeable terms in the thought leadership content out there. And I think that's what's holding us back. A database is this kind of swamp. There's no current just. You're just pouring more into it basically. And that's what no one wants and what you need instead is a current, an actual flow. Like, how does this facilitate our business development process when a new lead comes in? How are we reaching out? How are we making contact? What happens if someone tells us now's not a good time? What do we do when somebody ghosts us? What do we do if somebody's not a fit? And once we have that sales call and we're in sales development, how is the CRM facilitating, running the sales call and following up and getting proposals and contracts and invoices out the door? And then the accounting executive side, how is it reminding us of the past accounts we have and the clients that we need to nurture? And it's like if we're thinking about this as an engine and a flow within, the CRM should be telling you every step of the way what needs to be done next. And what that means is we have to define that first. And this is where most companies don't want to slow down to figure that out. They just want a system that works, quote unquote, that their salespeople can use. That's all well and fine, but if we don't actually design the system with intentionality and then build the technology around that system instead of processes, then again we're just going to end up with another database. And so this company we were working with doing north of 10 million a year using an arbitrary system, we took three months to map out every single part of their sales process from lead in all the way to this client is referring us and booking us for more business and so on, every little task that needed to get done, every handoff that needed to happen, and we could take that full outline, this giant chart, and design a system around that. So the second a new lead came in, this approval process or assignment process happened. And these 10 touch points automatically triggered so that the salespeople knew what to do. And by the time it got to, like, the sales to ops handoff, like, the templates were written, the tasks were decided upon, and now the CRM is literally just telling you what to do, rather than you having to sit down at your desk every day wondering, like, what do I do next? And that's where they fail. So if we can design the process first, bake that into the technology, life gets easier, and then you just don't need to think about it. And I think the whole point of a CRM is that it removes the stuff that's going on in your head, puts it somewhere safe so you can think more creatively, think More impactfully. And you're not worried about, did I sign up Debbie? Did Johnny get his contract? Did David finally get back to me? You just have to look at your task list for the day and look at your dashboards and just do those things and you will be successful. And I don't know, when you're working in sales, like, that's just peace. That's the peak form of peace.
- [11:55]
A
Oh, wow. You just said so much truth. Now I'm going to push back a little bit because sometimes I hear from salespeople, it feels like my CRM owns me. It's telling me exactly what to do.
- [12:05]
C
Sure.
- [12:06]
A
What you're saying is, yeah, it is going to tell you what to do, but it's kind of like a roadmap that it simply tells you this is the road you got to take. That's. I mean, again, and, and I think maybe do salespeople get their head wrapped around the axle too tight, thinking the CRM is controlling them? It's not. It's just a roadmap.
- [12:26]
C
Well, I think in some cases it is. Actually this is a problem of leadership. Like they've defined a process that that salesperson knows doesn't work and the leadership team doesn't give their salespeople agency in refining that process. The process happens 2, 3 degrees away from the day to day activity in most companies, rather than giving their salespeople agency and having an open floor to say, is this the actual process that's working or have you all found something better? Let's make sure the system is updated to that new standard. What happens is like this kind of set it and forget it mentality from management where the first time the system gets set up based on their own criteria, there's no iteration and no feedback from the people actually doing it on the day to day. And so for that salesperson, like, who says that, I hear you. And that sucks. And ultimately that's probably because you feel and probably have experience in a process working better that you're following, that the system doesn't follow. And that's where this divide tends to happen. So without that feedback loop and that iteration that happens, salespeople are going to feel like that. And that's a lesson for leadership to really take seriously is how do you get your salespeople to have agency in deciding how the CRM system facilitates your process?
- [13:44]
A
Oh, that's, that's powerful. Again, we got to have salesforce sales input, salespeople input into it.
- [13:51]
C
That's right.
- [13:52]
A
I, I'm amazed at the amount of money that it's spent every year on. And it, it feels like, you know, we're, We're. I don't know, we're 10, 15 years into the, into the CRM burn, and it still feels like companies are still chasing an roi, looking for that first roi, and. And it just is not getting better. Okay, help us understand here. What should individual solopreneurs or companies do that. Okay, we're confused what to do. Okay, first of all, they should call you. But second, what would be some steps that they should be doing to say, okay, here's how we're going to get our CRM on track and working for us?
- [14:31]
C
Yeah, great question. The first is defining what on track means and what success looks like. It's easy for us to just sit down and look at our CRM and start adding filters of people without emails or phone numbers and just deleting and just immediately getting into execution blindly, because that's what feels good. And like, it's the easier work than actually trying to sit down and strategize. And so what I would encourage any individual or any company to do is whatever leadership team, if that's one, or if it's a dozen people, to sit down and define what your actual process is. From lead in. The second, there's a lead in your system, either because it was prospected or it came inbound. And map out what needs to happen for those people. And when people come to me and say, like, well, I don't know what needs to happen, just look at your people who have bought from you and what they went through in your journey and replicate that. That'll basically tell you the whole story. And you want to design your process from lead in to what does it take to book a sales call? This is business development. Then from sales call to getting money across the table, this is sales development. What does that look like? And then how do you want to stay on top of your past clients? Is it after you deliver for them? If so, how long and how often? And what does that cadence look like now, once you've defined what are we doing with our leads? To book sales calls, what are we doing with our sales calls to close deals, and what are we doing with our clients? Now we just have to think about what are we doing with all of the stray people in the system, the people who told us it wasn't a good time, follow up later. That one's easy. You follow up when they tell you they want to hear from you. Those who have ghosted you, what do you, do you put them on a nurture drip, usually via your email marketing tool? Those who are not a fit, you ignore them. And so you have these kind of nets that are built into the system. Lost deals. We don't want to forget about those people either because again, if they went all the way through the process to tell us no, that's even more qualified than a lead is who hasn't even booked a sales call yet. So you want to look at your process as a whole and then work backwards. So what I mean from that is like once you've mapped out your biz dev, your sales dev, and your account executive kind of process, now you start with your account executive process. You make sure that your past clients are not getting forgotten about, that there are touch points and tasks in place to stay on top of those people. And then you work back from them closing the deal. What happens that to close the deal we need a contract that goes out. Okay, let's get that thing to fill itself out. We have these tasks that need to get done. This is what happens when a sales call is booked and you work back all the way to brand new lead. And the reason you work backwards is because it makes no sense to pump a bunch of new leads into the system when there is no system.
- [17:14]
A
Okay. I love how you broke that all down into individual pieces. And I think that's one of the big things that salespeople of all levels don't do. They look at the CRM in totality. And I think you breaking it down, I think that brings a tremendous amount of clarity. Is there one of those stages that you feel is more important than the other?
- [17:36]
C
Yeah, your account management process. So meaning your past client management process, how are you staying in touch with those people? How are you getting referrals from those people? Even the simple task of like after you've delivered and they have left you a review, you say something to the tune of, hey, are there three other people you might know that could benefit from something like this? Even if they say no, what are the chances that they say yes? Pretty damn good. Like most of the time they're going to say, yeah, I know one or two people or three people that I can intro you to. You say, great, thanks so much. Here's an email template so that you can make referring me super easy. I'll thank you for that.
- [18:14]
A
Share with the audience. Which one of those examples, which one of those those stages is the worst one or the one that they need to pay the most attention to? And can you Give example.
- [18:25]
C
Go ahead. Yeah, this is going to be the account management process. The following up with your past clients on a regular basis, at least every 90 days. Just saying, hey, what's up? What's going on? How you doing? How's the, you know, solution we've implemented for you? Going these types of things, but also the simple ask of referrals after you've delivered. Well, for somebody who are three people, you might know that you could intro us to to also help solve this problem and managing this part of the process. Most people just forget about their past clients. They think of the sales process very linearly. New leads, new deals, new clients, new leads, new deals, new clients. But by keeping in touch with your past clients and asking for referrals, you're creating a loop back to business development where you're getting new leads and you're getting repeat business from the clients who already love you because you're staying top of mind. So before you pump in new leads, before you close more deals, we have to make sure our past client management process is intact so that when we close more deals, we retain more clients and get more referrals and so on and so on.
- [19:32]
A
You know, this is a great conversation and it fits so well with the book that I just came out with, Integrity First Selling, because it's about how you create relationships and you're really talking about how you create a deeper relationship because you're staying in touch with people. So thank you so much. Hey, how do people get in touch with you?
- [19:49]
C
Yeah, you can just a find me on LinkedIn. I'm the only Taylor with two Rs and Payne P A Y N E so you can find me that way. Or Taylor with two Rs. T A Y L O O R R SpeakerFlow.com Shoot Me an email.
- [20:02]
A
I love that. And that's not to be confused with Taylor Swift.
- [20:04]
C
Although we had. Yeah, this is not. I know we look alike, but I know, I know.
- [20:08]
A
That's right. That's right. Hey, I want to thank you for coming on because you help to dispel some of these, these falsehoods regarding CRM systems. And again, I talk about all this in my new book, Integrity First Selling, which do hope you get. But today it's all about Taylor. I reach out to Taylor. He is incredible.
- [20:24]
C
I've.
- [20:24]
A
I don't know, we've known each other for years, haven't we? Too long. Don't say the number of years.
- [20:28]
C
Something like that at least.
- [20:31]
A
And anyway, hey, I want to say thank you so much and you've been listening to the Sales Hunter podcast.
- [20:36]
C
What is it?
- [20:36]
A
It's two episodes a week, one like this, where we do a deep dive. Today, Taylor Payne, talking about CRM systems. And the second episode is just me, where I do a single topic. Why the show? It's to help you see and achieve what you didn't think was possible. Because that's what sales is. Sales is about helping our customers see and achieve what they didn't think was possible. Hey, my name is Mark Hunted, a sales hunter, and I'll see you on the next episode.