A (2:32)

What. Hey, let's talk about good, though, from salesforce perspective, because it's not about us here. You know, I could talk about me if I wanted to, but I don't want to.

B (2:40)

So, yeah, I think good in generic terms, I think good looks like repeatable high profit pipeline. I think it looks like good forecasting. I think good looks like being able to identify the gaps and the deficits on your team from where you want them to be. And, and, and this is a very important and all caps. Having the means and the roadmap to get them from where they are to where you want them to be. That's what most organizations are missing right now. And the problem when they feel like they're missing that is they go out to hopefully find someone who can help them. And that in and of itself is not the problem. The problem becomes when that person comes in with their own ideas of what goods, what good looks like and doesn't help them identify, codify, update, modernize, what good looks like here in the organization. Because, Mark, you've seen this. You've seen companies that are fly by night, they're flashes. They, they do brilliant work, but they don't last. Right. Whatever competitive advantage they had, it just has disappeared. And we've also both worked with companies who have long histories, long tenures, and the longer a company has been around, the longer we expect it to last. And so even if a company's struggling, I worked with a company last year that's 140 years old, and they were struggling. Wasn't because they weren't a good company, but what they had lost touch with was what good looked like at that company when things were going the way that they wanted it to.

A (4:32)

Okay, I want to, I want to stop right there. Is good a process or is it a mindset?

B (4:41)

It's, it's both. And it's. I think, I would say it goes beyond that too. It goes to. Good is also a set of methods. So a mindset of having that high performance, having those high performance goals, those objectives, having a willingness to do the things like show up every Saturday morning and record even when other people don't want to do it, knowing that it's worth doing that, that is a very, that's. That's what good looks like from a mindset standpoint. When you don't have a process that people can commit to, their belief erodes. That mindset erodes because they wonder what's the effort worth? But then I think the, the flip side of the coin of process that I. I think it's hard to mention process without mentioning methods because that's the, say, the. I'm sorry, the science and the art of sales. The process is the science of selling. Those are the things that have to happen. The methods are the art, the. The way we make those things happen. So, yes, I think good looks like a mindset. I also think good looks like a process in terms of what we know needs to happen and what we know we need to make happen in order to make efforts sustainable. But the flip side of that process is we also know what the methods are that are effective. We know that Bob, who's been doing this for 20 years, we know that he always sends a handwritten note after a first appointment. And it's timeless and it's classic and it's even more rare than ever. And we know that Sally, as a means of. Over the last two decades that she's been working at this company, she actually happens to like to bake, too. So she'll send her handwritten note with a little box of cookies. Almost like TED Lasso. Right. Showing up with the shortbread every day. Right. It's just that little touch that maybe someone who's brand new wouldn't think to do that because they didn't grow up at a time to do that. And it's not about the handwritten or it's not about the handwriting. It's not about the cookies. It's about the fact that they do something unique to them that makes it stand out. Those are the things that organizations lose because it's hard to keep track of all that stuff.

A (6:54)

Yeah, it is. So that. That really says that good is really dependent upon the people you have in the organization, which again, runs this little counter argument that people say, well, if you have the right process, you can throw anybody into that. But I think you and I are talking that. No, it's all about the people, too. You've got to have the right people.

B (7:14)

Let me. Let me suggest something to you, Mark. If you had your process down to a strict science to where you could plug anybody in to do it, anybody who can fog a mirror can be successful here. I think you're setting a very low bar for what success looks like. And I also think that you are suggesting at that point that any automaton can replace a sales rep. And we all know AI is coming. We all know that automation and everything's prevalent, only getting more prevalent. But you and I have also known for a long time that there is something Distinctly human. That is within every sales process, every successful sales process. And so the tasks themselves do not make the success. There's a flare that goes along with it, there's a touch, there's an element of personality that goes along with it. And I think we're painting with too broad a brush. When you say, I have a process or a system that works, completely automated and it'll get you what you need, I think you're leaving sales on the table there.

A (8:21)

Wow. You threw a lot of water on private equity companies that believe that if you have the right process, you know, you just, you create the process and you just throw more money at that process and you gear it up faster and you just threw a lot of water on that.

B (8:38)

There's a factor that cannot be completely accounted for when you document a process. That factor are human beings. There are human beings on every side of that process. There are the people executing that process and executing those steps, and then there are the people on the other side of that process who do the buying. Now, if we knew every possible circumstance that we were selling into, we could program a robot to sell to another robot because we know what's going to happen. It's just a matter. It's a function of these steps being carried out. But what happens when you're moving through your process and then right before you go to scope the project, someone says, jeff had a medical emergency, you need some time. Oh, okay. Call me back in 10 days. Wow.

A (9:29)

All right.

B (9:29)

I can't get into specifics, but I hope everything's okay. James, how do you follow up with that? How do you be, you know, there's, there's. How do you write a. How do you write a process at that point, for sensitivity? Because this is not your typical follow up. Someone's been in a medical emergency, they've got some feelings associated with that. There's a certain amount of heartache that is associated with that. Hopefully it wasn't a heart attack. Right. And then everything changes. You can't tell me that you have a process for that and a process for when someone's just stalling or a process for when someone needs to go ask permission to spend the money or et cetera, et cetera. So, I mean, at this point, are we just writing a whole bunch of processes? Because those are infinite. The situations are infinite. Good salespeople. Salespeople. Good salespeople get paid a lot of money to understand the nuance, the humanity, the personality behind each of those. And despite the limitless potential of AI and I Use AI for multiple hours every day. I love it. But there are certain things that it will never be able to do. And I think the task, the responsibility of successful salespeople is to continue to find the human thing that AI will never be able to do because there will always be something.

A (10:46)

I love what you're saying. I'm going to quote a piece from my book, AI we always say artificial intelligence. I think we need to make it be authentic integrity. Because I'm using AI to, like you said, do the background work. But I'm still interfacing because you can't write enough prompts. You can't write enough prompts to circumvent the person who says I need 10 days. Get, get back because of a health issue. You just can't write prompts on that.

B (11:13)

Yeah.

A (11:14)

And it's how we use it. So does that, does that mean good has changed in the last couple of years because of AI and good is going to change even more because of AI in the next couple of years?

B (11:26)

Years.

A (11:26)

The speed with which AI is, is moving?

B (11:30)

Well, yeah, I think good. The bar on good has been raised because AI enables so many things.

A (11:37)

Right.

B (11:39)

Reflect back though, on the company that's using it. Not every company can leverage it the same way. Companies will have their own standards. Companies can't leverage AI to where it then waters down or eliminates what good has always looked like. Like, let's use the example of a very customer centric sales organization. There are a lot of them out there when you get these personal touches all the time and your best customers love hearing from you personally and all of a sudden you decide to automate that. Where's the personal touch anymore? Wait a second. The very reason your customers continued to buy from you was taken away in the interest of automation. And there could be.

A (12:21)

And it's.

B (12:22)

And let's just eliminate this, pull this off the table. I'm not just talking about some of those private equity companies that you mentioned before who are just saying, you know what, we can replace this customer service team with one bot and so we'll save a bunch of money. No, let's just say that we wanted to elevate that customer service team to do something else in the organization. We're not killing jobs, we're. We're enabling people to do better things, that's great. But if you in some way to modernize, if you find some way to modernize and that then unplugs you from the juice that made you so special to your customers in the first place, that's highly problematic. So leaders have to be aware of that. And I just don't think that most companies know what that juice really is, because most companies don't ask their best customers. I've been saying this for years, Mark. If I asked 100 salespeople why their best customers bought from them, five would know the answer because they've asked. Fifteen would guess. Right. Because they pay attention, and they come close to asking these questions on a regular basis. 80 salespeople would be shocked to find the real answers. They'd be shocked to know that it's not one of the four bullet points on the front page of your website. And we need to understand what makes our customers tick more than ever, because there's so much noise, so much competition, and so many other companies out there saying, well, we can do this and this and this and this and this. It's overwhelming. And there's so many flashing, shiny lights out there that are promising something new. If you don't know what really drives your customer behavior, what drives that purchase decision, what drives that loyalty, you're at risk of losing it.

A (14:03)

Okay, right there, you called out the elephant in the room. Because you cannot define good until you know what the customer says good looks like.

B (14:12)

Yeah.

A (14:12)

And very few. And I totally agree with you, 80 out of 100 salespeople have no clue. And every company that they work for has no clue. They think they know, but they have no clue. Yeah.

B (14:24)

Tell me if you've heard this before. You're standing in. You're at a meeting. You are speaking with a VP of sales. You're speaking with a CEO, coo, someone who's been with the company a long time, and they know what has made them successful. And you say, what makes you different than the four other competitors whose website looks just like yours? And they say, you know, we've been doing this a long time. We have a lot of industry knowledge here. We have great relationships. Mark, I don't think you realize how good our relationships are. And you know what really makes us stand out? We actually care about our customer success. That's what makes us stand out in the marketplace. You know how many people I have not heard say those things? Zero. Which means everybody says those things. Which means you're not that different. Which means, actually, all right, in fairness, it means you're different until I go talk to your competitor.

A (15:23)

And there you go. Boom. Because customers are going to see things through a completely different lens. Right? I mean, good. Good starts with the customer. And I think when you really define Good. What good looks like by starting with the customer, you're going to wind up with more loyal customers.

B (15:43)

And, and let's go back to handwritten notes and snickerdoodles. Okay. What leaves what. Why do Bob and Sally have those great relationships? VP of sales says, huh? Oh, my gosh. You know what? There's a personal touch. Say more. Oh, there's. I. You know what? Bob writes a handwritten note after every first meeting, and that makes an impression. That. That's so old school, people don't do it anymore. And now that I think about it, Sally is always leaving early on Fridays to go bake because she's got something going on. And, you know, she's baking cookies to send to her prospects and her first meetings from that week. And that's. That's a personal touch. It's like, okay, great, so now we've honed in on some more differentiators, but the work's not done. That. That's what. Where a lot of people will stop. Okay, so what is it about the cookies in the handwritten notes? Okay, so it's, it's extra work. It's uncommon. It's. It's very, very highly personal. Okay. Again, though, what does that say about your customers? Who are you not sending cookies to? Who are you not sending handwritten notes to? Does Bob send handwritten notes to every one of his customers or prospects or just the ones that he has a really good connection with? Just the ones that deserve it. There' filter there that has never been identified before. And that filter matters. Mark, you know, you will never have a better day in sales when you fire your worst customer. You want to know it's even better than that. It's just avoiding the altercation altogether and not finding a bad customer. Why don't we hone in on what our good customers look like? Drop.

A (17:16)

Drop the mic with what you just said. That was brilliant. That was brilliant. I love it.

B (17:23)

Continue. I want to hire you to be my cheerleader, Mark. I need you to go out.

A (17:26)

I'll tell you what, that is so true. Because again, why did we allow ourselves to think that we could somehow turn this bad customer, this bad prospect, this nightmare process we're going through into a good customer. We can't.

B (17:43)

And you've seen this in the teams that you work with, those established, those wily veterans, they know which leads to keep and they know the ones they're passing on to someone else to work. And what's in that selection criteria, what's there. And I don't know of any. I'm sure there are some out there I want to give credit to. Some great sales leaders that are out there. I know they exist, but I haven't talked to any yet that spend time not with their best performers. Not just to show them a little love or buy a mistake dinner, take them out to a round of golf, but spend that time, sit, have a cup of coffee and say, okay, what? I just came off that sales call with you. How did you know whether or not this was going to be a good opportunity? How did you, what was, what were you thinking? Give me the exact internal dialogue. I need to pick that apart. I need to tease that into pieces for lessons that I can share with Johnny and, and Susie who are bright eyed, bushy tailed, full of potential, but don't have that nuance yet. If you're not having those discussions, you're never going to know what truly makes your enterprise, what truly makes your team, what good looks like here. You've written books, I've written books. We've got a lot of friends that have written some great books and we agree with most of, if not all of the information that is in those books. It's not that it's wrong. How is that stuff being applied? And you know, look, the, the, I was sharing this with you before, before we started recording today. You know, I came in to be the head of sales at a company because I knew what good looked like and I was willing to have tough conversations and it was a tenuous situation. It was a merger, there were things going on and you know, I had to be a leader, I had to step up, I had to have, I had to be firm in my conviction. And the thing that I missed was that I didn't take the time to listen to what was already going on there. I came in knowing what good looked like and seeing gaps in what the current process was instead of first seeing what the good parts were. I came in trying to fix before I did enough discovery on what was actually working and it blew up. The company's doing just what just company's doing just well or really well just, just fine without me.

A (20:12)

Right.

B (20:13)

And it's, it's. We're getting too enthralled, too enthused, too wrapped up in the fix without really recognizing what's already good. If you're in it, if you've been around for a long time, you're doing some things well, give yourself credit for those things, understand those things so you can do more of them.

A (20:35)

I think what you Shared was absolutely fantastic. Let's look at what's going on right first before you throw the baby out. Because it's so easy just to say, you know, this is like the old mentality of I'm gonna fire our coach. That, that's the easy part. Hiring the coach. Right, right. I mean, it's kind of like the stock trade. I mean, you know, I'm gonna sell the stock. It's a dog. Okay, that's fine. But now where are you gonna put that money? Is the money you're gonna now put it into, Is that going to be any better? You know, again, wow, you, you, you unpacked a lot. And, and I think it tells people you need to take a step back and breathe first before you build.

B (21:15)

Any company. Yeah, any company can do this. The, the first part, you know, to your point, is giving yourself permission to stop for a minute and actually do it. You know, the, the second part, and I call this, it's a three part, you know, process here. You have to excavate, you have to really dig into what your team is doing. You have to go beyond the mundane questions that you're asking and really get specific about answers. And a lot of companies don't like doing this because it's like, geez, are we arguing semantics here? Are we like, what are we doing? No, no. We need to get as specific as possible because only with that specificity do you really unlock what's special. Right. So we have to excavate those differentiators, then we have to validate those differentiators. We have to go to our best customers. We have to take our assumptions and we have to ask them questions and we have to get the, their answers in their words and compare them to our assumptions. They are almost always different. They're almost always different. But then once you have your assumptions, once you validated those assumptions with your best customers or made the necessary amendments, now it's time to integrate those lessons into your playbooks, your SOPs, your processes, however you want to define this stuff. But that's what you train on. That's what you coach to. That's your common language. And now everybody's reading from the same book.

A (22:36)

Yeah.

B (22:36)

And now we can really get consistent with our performance when we're, when we're doing those things. But I've, I've just not seen companies do this and there's no reason why, why they can't.

A (22:48)

Wow.

B (22:48)

You know what?

A (22:49)

We got to end the show right here. Jeff. Absolutely brilliant. How do people get in touch with you? Because you, you do this, you do a tremendous amount of consulting. Excellent work in helping companies find their good.

B (22:59)

How do people get you the best way to find. Well, there's a couple of ways. You can find me on LinkedIn just Jeff Bajoric, that's my name. Or you can go to jeffbajoric.com sales hunter. There is a self assessment that you can do there in eight minutes that covers the these gaps. How well do you know yourself and your differentiators? How well do you know your best customers? Free, very fast. You'll learn some things, you'll think different, you'll think differently about the, what you know about your team and what you know about your customers. And you know, if the, if the results are intriguing to you, I got a free consultation you can book. We can talk about it, we can talk next steps and you know, I want to point people in this direction.

A (23:43)

Great. I'm glad you didn't put the in front of the Sales Hunter because then we'd have a trademark infringement and I have to put my attorneys on your attorney.

B (23:49)

So anyway, I'm just directing people back to where you sent them.

A (23:53)

So that's, you know, so jeffbajoric.com sales hunter. Right?

B (24:00)

Correct.

A (24:00)

Good. Hey, we will make sure we put that in the show notes. Jeff, thank you for being with us today. You've been listening to the Sales Hunter podcast. Two episodes a week each week, one like this where we do a deep dive with a subject matter expert. Second episode is just me single topic where we unpack why do we do the show. It's to help you see and achieve what you didn't think was possible. Unlimited opportunities out there in sales, but it's all about taking the time to listen and learn and apply. My name is Mark Hunter, the sales Hunter and I'll see you on the next episode. And along the way, make sure you pick up a copy of the new book Integrity for Selling. Great selling.